August 8, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell delve into Chapter 4 of Elizabeth Gillespie McCray's book 'Mothers of Massive Resistance,' focusing on Jim Crow storytelling. The hosts discuss FDR's New Deal, judicial court packing, and how progressive politics were often used to reinforce white supremacy. They analyze the complex figure of Nell Battle Lewis, a North Carolinian journalist whose advocacy for a less violent, more benevolent form of white supremacy highlights the contradictions of white liberalism. The conversation touches on Lewis's support for segregation, her admiration for certain Black elites within constrained boundaries, and how her eugenic beliefs influenced her work. The hosts also reflect on how modern white progressives must remain vigilant about their complicity in maintaining these systems.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi.
We're back.
katy (00:17):
I am so proud of us.
We are
Mandy (00:19):
We,
katy (00:19):
think having a book helps.
Mandy (00:21):
yeah, we really are better when we have something
katy (00:25):
The structure
Mandy (00:25):
to
katy (00:26):
chapter by chapter.
Read
Mandy (00:28):
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And so here we are.
We're doing
katy (00:31):
chapter
Mandy (00:32):
four of Elizabeth Gillespie McCray's book, mothers
of Massive Resistance, and thischapter focuses on.
Jim Crow storytelling, which isjust the shaping of history.
That's really interesting.
But before we get into that, Iwanted to follow up just on a
little snippet of what we talkedabout in the last episode.
katy (00:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (00:55):
'cause we were talking about FDRs New Deal initiatives
and how.
Typically, I think history viewsthat as this very progressive
liberal push.
But we saw in the last chapterhow that was actually used in
some ways to further entrenchwhite supremacy into structural
systems.
But there was this component ofFDR and the New Deal that we
(01:19):
were unsure of the significanceof, and that was his effort to
pack the courts.
katy (01:25):
And
Mandy (01:25):
and.
katy (01:26):
why the women featured in chapter three cared so much
about that issue and why thatwould be like, just such a, a
spark plug to get signaturesfrom women all over.
And you know, why?
Why would people
Mandy (01:39):
Yeah.
katy (01:40):
that issue
Mandy (01:41):
Yeah.
And because one of them, eventhough they were both initially
F-D-F-D-R supporters and kind ofhad their own issues with it,
one of them was very supportiveof packing the courts.
And then the other one was veryagainst packing the courts.
So I found this little synopsisI wanted to go on and be like,
how did I never learn aboutthis?
And.
Your little insight I probablydid and forgot about it.
katy (02:04):
just forgot.
I don't know.
Maybe we didn't ever learn aboutit.
That's fair too.
Mandy (02:08):
Well, there's one little section that makes me think that
I did, because I feel like I'veheard about it before.
But basically very quickly, thereason the FDR wanted to pack
the courts was when he tookoffice in the early thirties.
He came into this country thatwas just basically in downfall,
the Great Depression.
There was industrial productionplummeted.
(02:31):
So many people were unemployed,people were literally starving,
homeless, all of these things.
So he was voted in and he islike, I have to get this country
out of this tailspin.
So he came up with a new deal asa way to try to do that.
But very quickly, the SupremeCourt started to knock down all
(02:55):
of these components of the NewDeal because they thought that
it was infringing.
It was the federal governmentinfringing on states rights be
able to control industry andcommerce.
Basically.
They didn't want the federalgovernment, they thought the
federal government wasoverstepping its role.
And so all of these.
Things that FDR wanted to getdone were being stymied
(03:17):
basically by the Supreme Courtand the Supreme Court at that
time, as currently in some wayswas very overloaded with old
people.
And so FDR was like, here's theproblem.
Yeah, exactly.
Old white men of course.
And specifically and FDR waslike, we're never gonna get this
(03:40):
new progressive stuff pushedthrough by a bunch of old white
dudes.
So I am gonna expand the court.
And his ways expanding the courtwas to say that for every
justice over the age of 70.
Who did not retire, then youcould add a new justice.
katy (04:01):
Is, it's so interesting to think he framed it as an age
thing.
Mandy (04:06):
I mean, I get it.
katy (04:08):
it
Mandy (04:08):
Also, it wasn't making them step down.
It was just like, if you don'tstep down, we're gonna basically
counter you.
I'm gonna appoint somebodyyounger who's just gonna negate.
Your voice in this things,
katy (04:24):
there is, I mean, well maybe negate, like you never
know for sure how a
Mandy (04:27):
right?
katy (04:28):
go and I, I do just think it's.
Bonkers.
I mean, we could go into theSupreme Court for weeks and
weeks and weeks and weigh intoall kinds of rabbit holes, but
just the, the lifetimeappointment, and I think we've
seen in the last few years, howletting them kind of govern
themselves in terms of ethicsrules is just not a super
effective way to make sure thatthey're.
Acting ethically.
Mandy (04:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (04:49):
it's like a, a wild branch of government that I find
endlessly fascinating.
Like a, a piece of the judicialbranch that is just so
interesting how it's set up.
Okay, so
Mandy (05:00):
Yeah, for sure.
katy (05:01):
70 in the thirties is old.
Mandy (05:03):
pretty old.
Yep.
That's equivalent to ournineties today, probably
katy (05:07):
yeah.
Like in age inflation, right.
Mandy (05:10):
Exactly.
So he started this push toexpand the court in his first
term.
Then he was reelected in alandslide in his second term,
and the court got worried.
'cause as you can imagine.
The old man white court was nothappy about his proposal.
They were offended by it.
katy (05:29):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (05:30):
said one of the reasons was because of their age, they
were unable to hear court casesin a timely enough manner, and
they were backed up and so theyneeded.
katy (05:41):
thought you meant they literally couldn't hear like,
Mandy (05:43):
Yeah
katy (05:43):
hearing aid technology had
Mandy (05:45):
that as well.
katy (05:46):
Maybe, maybe that too.
Mandy (05:48):
Yeah, no, he was just calling them slow basically,
which really pissed them off aswell and actually was not
congruous at all with what wasgoing on because they were
striking down his initiativeslike
katy (06:00):
ways he
Mandy (06:00):
very quickly.
So it's like, nope, they're notmessing around, but that's not
really legitimate.
But they were mad.
But when he won in a landslide,then they got worried
katy (06:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:09):
He has this kind of initiative behind him, this
power behind him, and he mightactually get this through.
So then they started to reversetheir rulings on some of their
more contemporary cases to goagainst what they had said in
the past.
But they were still, there wasstill this fight for it.
(06:30):
The part that I had notremembered that I really think.
We did learn about, and let'ssee if you can remember this.
So they had this debate July of1937 on the Senate floor with
Senate majority leader JoeRobinson of Arkansas leading the
fight for enacting it.
So he had helped a lot of theNew Deal stuff go through in the
(06:52):
Senate and he named the, he gotthis nickname of Scrappy Joe
because he would basicallystrong arm people into
supporting.
What he wanted to get done.
So he was on the floor givingthis opening speech about how
they needed to pass this courtpacking initiative.
But the problem was thisWashington DC in July, they were
(07:15):
suffering this uncharacteristicheat wave at that point in time,
and there was no airconditioning, obviously, back in
the thirties.
And so they were arguing this asan in an un-air conditioned
chamber.
And frankly, many of the peoplein the Senate were a bunch of
old white dudes as well.
katy (07:35):
sweating, literally
Mandy (07:36):
Yeah.
Sweating.
Yeah.
And arguing on the floor becausethey still argued a bit more, I
think, vehemently or physicallyor what, at that point in time.
Not duals as they used to doback in, but still getting
really into it.
So there were.
(07:57):
A third of the senators at thattime were over the age of 60
Robinson opened by with a twohour long speech on the court
floor, and throughout the timeit was documented that he just
had like this reddened face thathe was sweating the whole time.
And here's what happened.
It says his trademark vigorflagged, and when he returned to
(08:18):
his apartment that night, hedropped dead from the heat and
the stress.
katy (08:24):
Oh
Mandy (08:24):
He, he literally died.
katy (08:28):
Trying
Mandy (08:28):
That seems familiar to me.
I feel like we learned that.
katy (08:33):
It's not it.
We took all the same literal,same classes and
Mandy (08:37):
Yeah.
katy (08:37):
to each other and it's doing nothing for me.
If that makes you feel anybetter.
Mandy (08:40):
Okay, good.
It does, but that's
katy (08:44):
is that why
Mandy (08:44):
wild.
So that's why it failed,
katy (08:47):
Hmm.
Mandy (08:47):
because he was.
Dead and lost like his greatestsupporter.
And so then the rivals that wereagainst it, like took that
opportunity to move in and takeover, and they defeated the bill
and it just died
katy (08:59):
It's, it's akin
Mandy (09:01):
and figuratively.
katy (09:02):
literally and figuratively when we talk about just like,
oh, if only people had therapywhen they were young, our world
would be so different.
But there's also all thesemoments in history that are just
so.
Like accidental or just like,oh, there's a crazy storm.
And so the Spanish armadacouldn't make it through.
It's like just completely actsof God, for lack of a
Mandy (09:22):
Yeah.
katy (09:22):
phrase, that route history, a completely different
direction.
And that is one of them.
Like, what if he hadn't?
Mandy (09:28):
Yeah.
katy (09:28):
What if it hadn't been so hot?
What if he, you know what Imean?
Just.
Mandy (09:31):
know.
Yeah.
And that was it.
And that was the last time thata president ever tried to
formally, like seriously triedto, in an effort to get the
courts to expand.
katy (09:44):
Well, we'll see.
I feel like it's in so many wayseverything we're learning about
this era, and this is the lastchapter in that era of the
twenties, thirties, and then,
Mandy (09:53):
Mm-hmm.
katy (09:53):
Gillespie McRay is gonna move on to the forties, fifties,
sixties, early seventies.
But this era is just.
Seeming so familiar to us, somaybe we'll see this become a
bigger issue.
Who knows?
I feel like everything andanything is on the table right
now, and that's bothoverwhelming and terrifying.
And exhilarating and you know,like what could be possible?
(10:15):
I dunno.
It's what
Mandy (10:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy (10:17):
what we keep talking about, how we're like just all
the emotions, everythingeverywhere, all at once.
Mandy (10:23):
Exactly, so perfect.
katy (10:25):
Well,
Mandy (10:25):
way to describe it.
katy (10:27):
update.
Yeah, that's, that isinteresting.
A little, a little giant.
I have to say that so far everychapter has been so good.
This one I think hit me reallyhard because in all the years
we've been doing this, one of myfavorite things to learn about
are white women who considerthemselves liberal or
progressive, who still are just.
(10:47):
the same old, same old, justpackaging it up differently.
And this, wow.
Is this woman a great case studyin
Mandy (10:55):
Mm-hmm.
katy (10:55):
Nell Battle Lewis,
Mandy (10:58):
Yes.
katy (10:59):
with her name since this is your daughter's name?
Mandy (11:01):
Absolutely.
That was like my number onething reading it.
katy (11:05):
She's not.
Why you Nell
Mandy (11:07):
not at all why we named Nell Nell, but I'm glad that I
didn't know about this womanbefore I named her Nell.
I love that name.
I was so mad.
I was like, what?
How dare she?
I mean,
katy (11:20):
I mean,
Mandy (11:21):
and maybe because it's also so unique, you know, like
you can't get that irritated bylike a Matthew who's an asshole.
There's 8 billion of them andjust found to happen and there's
so many good ones as well.
But I'm like, no, that's so,yeah, individual.
And I'm pissed that she turnedout to be such a raun.
katy (11:44):
figure.
Mandy (11:45):
Very.
katy (11:46):
let, this whole chapter is just about her.
Mandy (11:49):
Yeah.
katy (11:49):
I think let's start just with some foundational info.
So this, I think the fact thatshe is.
North Carolinian is important
Mandy (11:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:00):
one thing I appreciate about, there's so much that I
love about this historian's workand just how I think she's a
brilliant scholar.
Is the way that she foregroundshow much the context, the
specific context, like the Southis not the same across the south
and being in North Carolina.
Was different than being inGeorgia.
And for this woman inparticular, she really wanted
(12:22):
North Carolina to be seen asdifferent from the other parts
of the south, like morecosmopolitan, more
sophisticated.
And so one of the reasons shewas.
against the more egregious formsof white supremacy is because
she didn't want her state lumpedin with all these other states.
Mandy (12:40):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:41):
but she ultimately was still very much a supporter of
white supremacy.
So I, I cannot, yeah, I, I'mexcited to get into how both
those things can be true,because I, I just think today,
white liberalism, whiteprogressivism is.
Falling into all the same trapsand just
Mandy (12:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy (13:00):
notice that, to stop it, to call ourselves out, to be
able to alert other people to itis super important.
Mandy (13:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (13:08):
she's from North Carolina.
What else do you rememberreading about
Mandy (13:11):
So the other super interesting thing about that is
she's from North Carolina, butshe left the South for a while.
So her early education, shestarted it seems like her
college education at GoucherCollege in Maryland.
But she then transferred andattended Smith College in North
(13:34):
h Hampton, Massachusetts, whichI feel like I don't know
anything about.
Goucher or Goucher, not sure howit's pre pronounced.
So sorry to anyone.
katy (13:44):
We could never
Mandy (13:44):
Yeah, and it's probably wrong.
It's neither of those.
Someone's very angry right now.
Let us know.
But Smith College today, and Ithink even back then was known
for being incredibly liberal.
And it seems like it was at thatpoint in time too, because it
says that she attendedintegrated classes.
There were.
(14:05):
Black and white politicalleaders that were speaking on
campus.
There were debates about women'ssuffrage.
The curriculum in generalchallenged the conservatism that
dominated the south for sure,and much of the north.
And so she went to all of thateducation, sat all that
(14:27):
education, and even seemed in alot of ways to bring it back
with her.
katy (14:32):
Oh,
Mandy (14:32):
'cause it says.
katy (14:34):
Absolutely.
Mandy (14:34):
interviewed for her first job, and the editors noted that
she was dressed in Jod first,which I'm guessing are like
those, are those those pantaloonkind of pants that women wore
instead of skirts?
katy (14:48):
pants that are like bigger on the top and then kind of
Mandy (14:51):
Yeah.
katy (14:52):
at the end.
Mandy (14:52):
Yep,
katy (14:53):
it
Mandy (14:53):
yep.
katy (14:53):
yeah.
Pants.
My God,
Mandy (14:55):
Pants.
She was wearing pants, a blazer,boots, and a hat, and had kind
of this androgynouspresentation.
So she was not in any way yourstereotypical southern woman of
that time, and she came back toNorth Carolina to be a
journalist and started workingat this newspaper.
(15:18):
So it's interesting with thatbackground, you would think, oh,
okay, here's some hope forthings.
katy (15:25):
but this is where I think it's so important to look at how
she fancied herself, a modernwoman, and was read as that by
other.
White people and know, evencalled a radical or you know, it
Mandy (15:38):
Yeah.
katy (15:39):
was advocating for modernity in, in quotes.
But that modernity is absolutelynot incompatible with white
supremacy.
And I think that's the piecethat it is so, so, so important
about this woman's life as acase to study, is that she could
be really critical of.
(16:00):
The south and ways thatignorance or intolerance were
flourished while at the absolutesame time still promoting.
White supremacy.
It's just a different version ofit where white people are still
in charge, but there it is justdifferent white people who are
genteel and educated andliterate and artsy, but they're
(16:21):
kinder and softer in that theyaren't lynching people, but
they're absolutely the onesstill in charge
Mandy (16:27):
Which actually makes it like even a little more
katy (16:30):
it's so, it's so gross.
Yes.
Right.
Mandy (16:34):
Because you can, you know, a shoe that violence.
Like overtly racist rhetoricwhile still deeply entrenching
it.
And then.
katy (16:46):
Yes.
Mandy (16:48):
Calling yourself benevolent at the same breath.
It's so wild.
And the other, the other justone part that I thought was
interesting'cause we always talkabout how maybe some good, like
family therapy would help mostpeople not become the assholes
they became, is that it alsonoted that her father and
brothers characterized her asabnormal, eccentric, and perhaps
(17:11):
even mentally unstable.
katy (17:13):
Well, she
Mandy (17:13):
So
katy (17:14):
institutionalized for a
Mandy (17:15):
yeah,
katy (17:15):
that I really would love to ask Elizabeth Gillespie
McCray, hopefully we get achance to talk to her to ask her
more about that, because thatjust gets mentioned really
briefly and I thought, whoa,what led to that?
Did she take herself there?
Was she put there?
What hap like, how did that allhappen?
Yeah, I, I do think there's someinteresting family dynamics
going on and her half brothers,it sounds like were very active
(17:38):
on the other side of things.
I mean,
Mandy (17:40):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:40):
ultimately on the same side.
They're just arguing fordifferent methods, I guess.
Mandy (17:45):
Yep.
katy (17:46):
this, there's a lot in here, but I think it's not just
that she was able to.
Take white liberalism into thesouth, but that, for her white
women in particular, had a superspecial and important role in
that.
So this is on page 1 0 2 forLewis.
It was only when whitesoutherners failed to act
properly.
That problems arose, and it wasoften white men who precipitated
(18:07):
those problems leaving whitewomen as the real guardians over
a racial segregation that couldlast to,
Mandy (18:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy (18:15):
a more benevolent in huge quotes.
You know, idea about the, theracial order and being able to
tie it to these economicpolicies in particular.
Yeah, just like taking theseprogressive politics and then
making white women the, theinterlocutors, like the people
who are best able to maintain aracial, a racialized white
(18:39):
supremacist social order that'smore sustainable because it
doesn't.
these really extreme, flagrantforms of violence.
Mandy (18:50):
Yeah.
katy (18:51):
I mean
Mandy (18:51):
Yeah.
katy (18:52):
it's, I think you're right.
Like there is just like a, aninsidiousness or a level of this
that's so much more disturbingin some ways.
It's not like we need tocompete.
It's all disturbing.
I don't think we need to likerank order the disturbing
Mandy (19:05):
I don't think it's ranking.
I think it's like to ourunderlying purpose that you
mentioned in the beginning thatwhite women have gotten away
with so much shit.
I feel like without having toanswer for it.
katy (19:21):
right.
Mandy (19:22):
being able to recognize that so that we don't repeat it
is what we're aiming toconfront, I think, in all of
this review.
katy (19:34):
Just how much it's still alive today.
Like
Mandy (19:36):
Yeah.
katy (19:36):
this is page 87.
That, that, so she becomes,she's this journalist.
She and we'll get into a littlebit more about her professional
skillset and how she used that.
But in her capacity as ajournalist and a columnist, she
celebrated a world led byeducated white progressives,
white female reformers and blackelites, and populated by
oppressed white industrialworkers and black Southerners
(19:58):
receptive to enlightened.
white leadership.
So that's the world order she'simagining as the ideal
Mandy (20:05):
Yeah.
katy (20:05):
not.
She's even com complimentingHarlem Renaissance writers, like
she's not interested in blackerasure, but she's interested in
a very clear.
Social order and hierarchy andeverybody's sort of having their
place within it.
So in, whether it's the eventsthat she's covering and how
she's narrating those historicalevents unfolding before, before
(20:27):
her, some that she's involvedin, especially labor strikes
and, and labor unrest, or whenshe's covering and she's acting
as like a literary critic or apop culture critic.
She is never.
Well, she does actually eraseinterracial cooperation when it
comes to labor organizing.
We'll get into that, but she's,she's very much like a, why are
(20:47):
black people trying to doShakespeare?
Like they, they should be doingthis thing that they're good at
and stop trying to pretend to bewhite people.
It, all of it is just, it, itwas like being in a fun house
mirror.
Just the, the sophisticationthat she was able to keep white
supremacy at the heart ofeverything.
Mandy (21:05):
Yeah.
katy (21:05):
really wanna get into like how she was able to do that, but
I did wanna talk a little bitabout her career.
Mandy (21:12):
Yeah,
katy (21:12):
married?
I don't know if I missed
Mandy (21:14):
it never mentioned that she was married or had children.
katy (21:17):
a queer lady?
I feel like there are queercoded
Mandy (21:21):
Oh, yeah.
katy (21:22):
but who knows?
It's
Mandy (21:23):
Interesting.
katy (21:24):
in that time, like what, how people identified or what
they were involved in.
Mandy (21:29):
Yeah.
But she was the first femalestaff writer
katy (21:33):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:33):
at the.
Raleigh knew an observer and shewrote a column called
incidentally, which isinteresting.
And it ran, it saiduninterrupted for 45 years,
katy (21:47):
I couldn't believe that.
Yeah.
Mandy (21:49):
which is such an amazingly long time,
katy (21:53):
Yes.
Mandy (21:53):
it seems like her writing did.
I cover, like you said, so manydifferent things.
Everything from currentpolitical events, to cultural
items, to reviews of books, inplays, all of this kinda stuff
but in a very romanticized way.
katy (22:10):
Yes.
Mandy (22:11):
it says on the top of page 88, it's talking about how
she said when she returned homefrom her travel, she celebrated
seeing the first shacks of blacksharecroppers because they told
her she was home romanticizingeconomic outcomes of
segregation.
In fact, the story she wroteoffered up both the black elite
and black folk, but such writingoften served to educate white
(22:33):
people about the appropriateplace of blacks and whites in a
Jim Crow world.
katy (22:39):
Yes
Mandy (22:39):
when she did critique these plays or artistic works or
poems that she was, and booksthat she was critiquing in her
column, she celebrated the blackelite, but only if they stayed
within what she considered theirblackness should be.
She had this big thing aboutblack elites.
(23:03):
Imitating white people.
katy (23:06):
Which to
Mandy (23:07):
Sh
katy (23:07):
my God, there, I, there were so many parts where I felt
like physically sick, but thefact
Mandy (23:11):
yeah.
katy (23:11):
her, her understanding is, you know, black people are
imitating white people and Ithought that the irony of
thinking that that's what'shappening is.
It so beyond belief, like thehistory of white people
appropriating black culture isso, so, so, so, so, so long in
(23:31):
the United States.
And so her criticism of that iswild to me and.
And it is, this is where it justbecomes kind of like fun house
mirrors where she's, she'sgatekeeping.
Things like Shakespeare, likewhy don't try to perform
Shakespeare?
It's just gonna look wrong.
It's just gonna be wrong.
Like, do your
Mandy (23:49):
Yep.
katy (23:50):
like have your own thing.
And there it was this momentwhere I thought, oh my God, so
hard to like pin down some ofthese.
Positions and why they'reproblematic.
Because when I think about likethe eighties, nineties, even
today, arguments in educationabout the curriculum and what
kids should be exposed to, like,one of the critiques that I've
(24:12):
made and that I continue to makeis, you know, to critique the
canon of works like Shakespeare.
It's not to say get rid ofShakespeare, and it's certainly
not to say.
white kids should doShakespeare.
Like everyone can accessShakespeare.
Everyone can love Shakespeare.
The problem is when we positionShakespeare as like the, the
only, or the most important orthe best or whatever.
(24:33):
so being able to open up thecanon for other works of
brilliance and creativity thatinclude, know, radically
different ways of expressingourselves and telling stories
that are not rooted in.
Whiteness or Europeanist orChristianity or whatever.
And so it, it's this momentwhere I was like, there's this
sliver of overlap in thearguments that she's making with
(24:54):
arguments of like verydedicated, anti oppressive
educators are making, or eventhinking about arguments like in
the eighties and nineties aboutEbonics and being able to
recognize and appreciate.
Black vernacular, a like AfricanAmerican vernacular, English as
like a, a you know, like as a, areally significant and important
dialect in its own right.
Like that is so important.
(25:15):
And I feel like she would'vebeen on board with that.
Like
Mandy (25:18):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:20):
we diverge is that she's like, that's your lane.
Stay in it.
And that, so it's the, it's,it's just so uncomfortable to be
aligned in any way, for anyamount of time, you know, and,
and to, to be able to.
To craft arguments that helpexplain to people why that alone
and on its own is so troubling.
(25:41):
It's not because it's, it's likeso much easier to say, let's
make sure black kids learnShakespeare.
Or Black kids shouldn't learnShakespeare like the, the kind
of simplistic binary that'seasier to sell one way or
another.
But either of those is still.
Rooted in white supremacy, likethe, understanding of the world
that's not, is just needs moreexplanation and context and I,
(26:04):
it's hard, it's hard to do that,you know,
Mandy (26:07):
Yeah.
katy (26:08):
anyway, just that, that discomfort of like, even for 0.8
Mandy (26:11):
Yeah.
katy (26:12):
thinking like, oh, I, there's something there worth
exploring, but not where she'staking it and not motivated by
what she's motivated by.
Mandy (26:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
It reminded me too, of therecent kerfuffle about when they
had a, a black actor play theLittle Mermaid
katy (26:32):
Oh,
Mandy (26:32):
the latest rendition of that, and people just absolutely
lost their shit.
katy (26:36):
Yeah.
Mandy (26:38):
I thought of that when I was thinking of her critiques of
like black students readingShakespeare or performing
Shakespeare.
She was just like, what?
No, this can't be.
It's also one of the reasons Iloved the series Bridgeton so
much.
katy (26:50):
Oh,
Mandy (26:50):
I don't know if you watched any of that.
katy (26:52):
I, I watched a little bit of the first season and I
totally can appreciate thecritiques and the reasons people
love.
Mandy (26:58):
yeah,
katy (26:58):
all of that.
Yeah.
Mandy (26:59):
yeah, yeah.
But one of the things they do iscast characters.
Whose like, you know, genderidentities and racial
backgrounds are completely
katy (27:10):
Right.
Mandy (27:10):
not aligned with what that historical thing would've
been.
katy (27:16):
intentionally doing that as a way to like push the
envelope today.
Mandy (27:19):
Yeah.
But they also don't ever mentionit
katy (27:22):
Right,
Mandy (27:22):
in the plot line.
Like it's obviously an overtthing that they're doing, and
then it's also not part of thestorylines when it's brought.
katy (27:31):
like,
Mandy (27:31):
just interesting.
katy (27:33):
or is that not
Mandy (27:34):
You are right.
katy (27:35):
all of these questions, they, they get complicated.
So it, but it's, it explains howshe can have what seem to be
contradictory positions, butthey're actually not
contradictory when you dig downfurther.
Mandy (27:48):
Yeah.
katy (27:48):
celebrate and protect Langston Hughes coming to UNC
and want people to read hispoetry.
But it's because she thinks itlike.
Lives in this place that makessense to her and is like, that's
their work over there and thenhere's our work over here.
And you like she can see it allliving but doesn't want it It's
(28:08):
just still very literal, blackand white thinking and very
binary and like that.
She's pro segregation.
Mandy (28:14):
Yeah.
katy (28:14):
similar to me to how you could have abolitionists who
were vehemently opposed toslavery, who were still racist
or anti-black or what didn'twant.
Who could support segregation asmuch as they hated slavery.
on the surface you're like, howcould that be?
But once you start to thinkabout their reasoning, you're
like, oh, of course.
That's the conclusion they cameto, you know,
Mandy (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:35):
people still come to today
Mandy (28:37):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:38):
about like the arguments of, of Beyonce's Cowboy Carter
album and the, this policing ofgenre and like, whose story is
authentic or what does it meanto do X, Y, or Z?
It's like that.
That is such a beautiful,important work of art to look at
as challenging that and, andraising, raising awareness about
(29:02):
the history of this genre tobegin with and the
Mandy (29:04):
Yep.
katy (29:05):
of black people from that genre and just all of it, like
it, these are still such ongoingissues in pop culture and I, I
loved even thinking about popculture as the side of this,
because in the chapter.
McRay even says it's, it's notjust the school system.
That's of course a side of this.
It's not just public policy.
(29:25):
It's not just electoralpolitics, it's also pop culture.
And even
Mandy (29:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy (29:29):
about the ways that, nell, the, non Nell that we, the
Mandy (29:35):
We know in love.
katy (29:36):
that
Mandy (29:37):
Mm-hmm.
katy (29:37):
could love Gone with the wind and, and loved Birth of a
Nation
Mandy (29:42):
Yes.
katy (29:43):
Langston Hughes.
It's like it all just seems sowild that someone could be a fan
of all of those things, but whenyou get down to this idea that
she just fully believed thatthis.
The best system is one in whichblack leadership means being
deferential and devoted anddependent on white, middle class
(30:05):
women.
Then it all makes sense,
Mandy (30:07):
Mm-hmm.
katy (30:07):
ding, ding.
If
Mandy (30:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (30:09):
crux of it, then that's, then it leads you to liking all
these seemingly disparate thingsand it leads to you advocating
for seemingly, you knowpositions that conflict with
each other, but they don'tactually.
Can we talk
Mandy (30:21):
Yeah.
katy (30:21):
about her love of mammies?
Mandy (30:25):
Oh, the whole mammy issue.
That was fascinating.
Okay, so in the, it's in thebook on page 90.
It says, in the immediateaftermath of the 1922 dedication
of the Lincoln Memorial, theUDC, our favorite, their
Washington DC branch gainedcongressional support for
granite tribute to black MammMaise.
(30:47):
So, Mississippi Senator JohnSharp Williams proposed and
received appropriations of$200,000 for it, which again,
$200,000.
katy (30:56):
money.
Mandy (30:57):
In that time period.
katy (30:59):
And this should also raise every red flag, like if a white.
Southern man who's in Congressis putting money towards the
celebration of something thatinvolves black people, that that
should just raise every alarmbell.
Like there's no way that can befor a good, like an actual good
reason.
And then it reminded
Mandy (31:17):
Yeah.
katy (31:18):
do you remember that suffrage monument that got
built?
Mandy (31:21):
Yes.
Yeah,
katy (31:21):
controversial.
Mandy (31:22):
in Uhhuh.
katy (31:23):
episode about it made me think of that too.
And I thought, oh my God.
It got like this memorial, likea monument for mammies was
actually gonna happen.
That's just so, I don't know whyI'm ever shocked about anything
anymore when we read thishistory, but this one shocked
me.
Mandy (31:39):
Yeah, so they were gonna build this monument, which is
basically just like, again,entrenching what they believe
the proper role
katy (31:50):
Yes,
Mandy (31:50):
of.
Black women should be, buttrying to act like these
benevolent actors inmemorializing them.
Like, look it, we're putting allthis money towards this to show
how much, you know, admirationand respect we have for black
women in this role.
As long as they do it, as we saythey should because they are
(32:13):
being deferential and.
Also subordinate to us in thisposition.
So obviously there were blacknewspapers that responded with a
lot of outrage to this.
In one of the articles that waspublished, this was Morris
Murray who was a newspaper andeditor and owner and art
historian.
He asked his readers to be morecritical in interpreting the
(32:35):
meaning of the sculptures Heasked them to evaluate.
Its obvious and also itsinsidious teachings.
So those black newspapers thencame up with their own
renditions of a Mamie statuewhere they kind of addressed
more of the sexual assault andlong hours and no wages kind of
(32:55):
exposing.
This is what these mammiesreally have to go through.
Instead of casting it in thisway, that's like somehow
romanticizing again, thisculture along with that.
katy (33:10):
Mm-hmm.
So the support, she really lovedMa.
I think she had like fond mepersonal memories, her of
Mandy (33:19):
Yes.
katy (33:20):
she GRA says she lamented a system based on paternalism
that was now passing with thechanging times.
And I think.
Had like this belief again inthis, what the system she's
arguing for is not totallygetting rid of white supremacy
at all.
It's just saying like, can't,why can't black women be in a
(33:43):
deferential supportive rolethat?
Wouldn't that be great?
And this imagined kind ofrelationship that she had
personally, or you know, how sheexplained it to herself in the,
in her head or just this largersystem?
That, yeah.
That it was just wild to me.
And, and that that's, she sawthe mammy figure as the
(34:06):
embodiment of that deference,devotion, independency.
Mandy (34:10):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:10):
and, and that she just really had this, I, it is called
paternalistic, but I wonder ifwe shouldn't call it
maternalism.
Mandy (34:17):
Yeah.
Why is it just paternalism?
It's heavily maternalistic,white maternalistic, I guess, if
you wanna,
katy (34:23):
Exactly.
And,
Mandy (34:25):
Yeah.
katy (34:25):
she just, like, if you keep thinking that she had this
idea of like, just be what youare, not in a way that actually
is anti-racist, you know, and
Mandy (34:36):
Well, and she thinks that she has.
Yeah.
And she thinks she has theauthority to say what people
are.
katy (34:43):
Yes.
Mandy (34:43):
question.
It's like who's defining whatpeople are.
katy (34:46):
she is, and
Mandy (34:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:48):
these boxes that are in a hierarchy.
So it's, this is that sliverwhere we would agree like be
what you are.
But for her, she, those, that'sa very.
Clear segregated, hierarchicalsystem, right?
And, and she was a eugenicist.
So I think that's another pointwhere when you get down to how
can someone hold what seems tobe on the surface, incongruous
(35:09):
beliefs when you push down, weshould never be surprised to see
eugenics.
At the heart of that, the factthat she had a eugenics
crossword puzzle, I thought, ohmy God.
Mandy (35:17):
Oh my gosh, that part?
katy (35:19):
it was wild.
Mandy (35:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (35:21):
was part of her modernity too, is like, oh, I believe in
science and I believe
Mandy (35:25):
Yeah.
katy (35:26):
You know, evolution and anthropology and, you know,
knowing the roots of all ofthose disciplines being so just
deep in racism and settlercolonialism and sexism and
ableism and all those things.
Again, it's
Mandy (35:40):
Well, you,
katy (35:41):
She's trying to get people to be sympathetic to the plight
of people in these boxes on thelower rungs of this ladder.
She's not in any way questioningthe ladder or the boxes.
It's
Mandy (35:54):
yes.
katy (35:54):
oh, for these poor, sad people in these boxes at the
bottom, they shouldn't have tolive in fear and they shouldn't
have to, you know, like live interrible.
Mental institutions or prisonsor like we should, they should
be more comfortable, but it's,it's not their fault that
they're in that box on thebottom, but they're definitely
in the box on that bottom andthe box is real and the ladder
(36:15):
is real.
Like all of that
Mandy (36:17):
Right, right.
Well, when there was one partthat was talking about her.
Push for reform of the legal andcarral system.
And she was very much againstthe way that black men were
treated, specifically black menwith mental disabilities, how
they were just put through thissystem without any consideration
(36:41):
of their mental disabilities andhow that might have affected.
What was going on at that time.
But she never even questionedthat these men were in trial, on
trial in the first place, mostlikely for crimes.
They did not even commit.
She wasn't questioning thatsystem at all.
It was just, well, once they'rein prison, we should treat them
(37:04):
better.
In that way it reminded me.
It, it, the term separate, butequal kept coming up in my mind.
She absolutely, but she believedin the equal part, but she just
as much, if not more believed inthe separate part.
katy (37:22):
It, and today I just think about, what's the acronym?
Nimby, the Not In My
Mandy (37:27):
Uhhuh.
katy (37:28):
ALS That, that, it just struck me so much that way.
Like, well, I don't want, youknow, poor kids of color.
Not being able to go to school,but I'm not gonna send my kid to
those schools.
You know, like there, there'sgotta be some separation there.
Like I, I know people who havemade that decision with that
logic, you know,
Mandy (37:47):
Mm-hmm.
katy (37:47):
bad, I've pity, I feel bad for, but they are different and
my kids's gonna get somethingbetter.
Mandy (37:54):
Yep.
katy (37:55):
and call themselves liberals and, and are like
horrified by Trump and like, youknow, think of themselves as
liberal people, but absolutelystill have this eugenics
thinking at the, the heart ofit, that that's why I think this
is such an instructive casebecause it's so pernicious and
it's still so pervasive and it'shard.
(38:17):
To point out because you reallydo have to unpack things a way
that takes some time to showpeople how this is all braided
together.
And I, you know, that's notalways the the case, but over
and over again, she hadopportunities to be in real
solidarity and she said no many,many
Mandy (38:35):
Yeah.
katy (38:35):
And, you know, wouldn't sign petitions, what wouldn't
come out against even though shefound it.
Distasteful or bad or whatever,but it seemed more because it
ma, it embarrassed her on thenational
Mandy (38:48):
Yes, yes.
katy (38:49):
what it was about than
Mandy (38:50):
It was more about this whole thing that you brought up
in the beginning about how theSouth was different and she saw
North Carolina is different fromthe other states in the south,
and she just felt like that kindof violence made them look bad.
And so she would write againstthat, but again, she wouldn't
join any sort of actual leaguesor committees or anything
(39:13):
organized against it.
She wouldn't sign petitions.
She'd just write about how whitepeople shouldn't act that way.
Basically.
katy (39:20):
Yes.
And there was a whole
Mandy (39:22):
What?
katy (39:22):
on labor struggles
Mandy (39:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy (39:25):
strikes like vi, that ended in people being murdered
by the state.
And, you know, really awful.
And I actually really wanna puta pin in the story of LMA
Wickeds, textile worker who had10 kids, five died due to
malnutrition.
And then she ends up gettingkilled as a activist, as a labor
activist like her.
And she.
(39:46):
Was I, as I understand it, awhite woman who was involved
Mandy (39:49):
Yep.
katy (39:50):
intentionally in building up an interracial group of
strikers.
So I'm super fascinated by herstory, but
Mandy (39:55):
Yep.
katy (39:55):
too far into the weeds there,'cause hopefully we learn
more about her, that Lewiscovered this event and covered
it sympathetically and coveredWiggins sympathetically that in
a way that erased theinterracial solidarity of it
all.
And.
Use that story to tell the storyshe wanted to tell.
Mandy (40:13):
Mm-hmm.
katy (40:14):
this is, I'm on page 98, that she Lewis witnessed a
grassroots political movementrising up from the working
class, yet she could not permitBlack North Carolinians working
class are otherwise to rejectthe guiding and paternalistic
hand of educated, enlightened,progressive whites.
Lewis, a white liberal woman andlike-minded men shaped a less
violent, more maternal, moremoderate white supremacist
(40:35):
state.
Where leaders took care of theirworkers.
White and black racialsegregation could be sustained
only if domesticated by whiteliberal women and men overseeing
a state that strove to honorseparate but equal.
So she adhered to the publicdemand for racial segregation.
At the same time, she supportedthe very individuals committed
to an interracial workersrevolution.
I cannot
Mandy (40:55):
Yeah.
katy (40:55):
how frustrating that would've been to be those people
who have this person, you know,speak on their behalf, but
mutating and warping and skewingthe work that they were doing.
Mandy (41:05):
Well, and it's also not, yeah, and it's also not like she
didn't know about.
katy (41:11):
oh, she
Mandy (41:11):
interracial cooperation.
It was in her notes.
It says in the beginning likeshe had notes where these people
that she was uplifting andsupporting had made statements
about believing in.
She talks about this one personlast name Foster.
She who wrote that, I believe,in a full social and political
equality for Negroes.
(41:32):
With all those terms imply, butthose notes just remained.
Notes and didn't make it intoher article about the strike, so
she, she knew it all.
She very intentionally leftthose part out, those parts out
to support the narrative thatshe wanted to sell about it.
katy (41:50):
Yes.
Yes.
and repeatedly refused a human'sright.
Discourse place of paternalismor maternalism, you know,
whatever term we decide to usethere.
And it, what it made me thinkabout is that classic Martin
Luther King quote.
I know we've quoted it evenrecently.
I think we
Mandy (42:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (42:09):
from his letter from a Birmingham jail where he talks
about his
Mandy (42:12):
The white moderate.
katy (42:13):
the white, moderate, and
Mandy (42:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy (42:15):
But she was absolutely supportive of gradualism if, and
not even gradualism, leading tofull.
Anything, you know, but agradualism to a white
supremacist system that waslike, I don't even wanna say
(42:35):
like softer, gentler, becauseit's just not like, it's still
white supremacy.
How could it be anything butawful?
You know?
But a, a version of things wherethere wasn't this level of
extreme violence that.
It, but this is where thematernalism or paternalism comes
in.
Like, I'm still in charge andI'm taking care of you because
you can't do that for yourself.
(42:56):
So just look, obey me and listento me and I will take care of
you.
Mandy (43:01):
Yeah,
katy (43:02):
I mean, just
Mandy (43:02):
there's this one story that it tells about that that
very position that she washolding as it pertained to her
critique of the carceral system.
She tells this story of twoblack prisoners who, so their
names were Woodrow Wilson, schShire, and Robert Barnes.
(43:23):
Who were arrested for larceny,one of them, and then drunk and
disorderly conduct the otherone.
So they were in cells that werenot heated during these 20
degree winter nights.
They suffered frostbite on theirtoes.
And these two men, men, I say,who were age 19 and 20.
katy (43:47):
Yeah.
Mandy (43:48):
barely men, boys.
Lost both of their feet and hadthem amputated and were left
crippled
katy (43:55):
Yeah.
Mandy (43:55):
this, and she went after this event.
I mean, very strongly condemnedthis treatment.
Wrote articles about it thatsays that her condemnation of
prison abuse would earn her aplace among some of the most
liberal activists of the 1930s,but it didn't push her to
actually condemn.
(44:17):
The racial segregation of thetime, she looked at it as a
failure of white people touphold a legal system that
guaranteed their superiority.
katy (44:29):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (44:29):
says not their infallibility, so she wanted
white people to see where thiswas a failure of how they could
be better.
But it didn't go any furtherthan that.
It's the same thing as thelynching argument.
It was her disappointment andhow it made white people look
not in her pushing more forequality of the black people
(44:52):
that it was actually affectingat that time.
It's so weird that she would beone of the most liberal people
of her time on many of theseissues, yet still be upholding.
The systemic inequality andracism and all of the structures
she was going after.
katy (45:09):
But that, I mean, I think that is
Mandy (45:10):
It's weird and not weird.
katy (45:11):
it's weird and not weird and it's the real gut chuck for
white people, and I would put usin this position who identify as
progressives or liberals or likewhatever the word is, you know,
is.
how vigilant and honest we haveto be with ourselves about how
that lives in us.
Like this, this is the quote onpage 1 0 4 that I had like at
(45:33):
multiple stars and underlinesand like highlighted in every
way that her racial politicsoffered.
Educated progressive whiteSoutherners, a politically
palatable way to digest thepolitics of white supremacy and
just how deep it goes.
And I, I am speaking personallyhere and how I have to.
Be vigilant about this in myselfand root this out in myself.
(45:55):
The desire to be like a goodperson who still lives in that
system.
it's I wanna, and I, I don'tknow how else to say it other
than.
And, well, here's, here's anexample of how this plays out.
So when I was working on mydissertation, I was studying
teachers who were trying to doanti-oppressive teaching in
(46:18):
schools of predominantly white,wealthy students.
A public school in like a verywealthy suburb and then a
private school that.
Was very expensive to attend andjust how complicated and weird
it is to try to do that sort ofteaching with those kids in
those places.
And like, is it even possible?
And what happens when you tryit?
And just, you know, those kindsof questions.
And one of the things that cameup when I was with the students
(46:41):
at this private school was howimportant it was for them to
distinguish themselves from thisother private school, like eight
blocks away.
That they weren't that kind ofprivileged, like we're not like
those are snobs, like those areconservative snobs and we aren't
that,
Mandy (47:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (47:01):
not able to extract themselves beyond that.
Mandy (47:06):
Mm-hmm.
katy (47:06):
to be, wanting to still benefit from the position of
hierarchy without.
Being critiqued for that becauseyou're nicer or kinder or
whatever.
And I remember one day theteacher at that school saying,
my goal is not to just helpthese kids be nicer to their
nannies
Mandy (47:26):
Yeah.
katy (47:26):
And
Mandy (47:26):
Yeah.
katy (47:27):
being like,
Mandy (47:27):
Yes.
katy (47:28):
it.
You
Mandy (47:29):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
katy (47:31):
I think that again, like it, this hits close to the bone
because.
You don't want to think that youare falling into these traps as
someone who is progressive orwhatever, but just how, how
likely we do and likely we are,and, and that it demands just
pretty brutal honesty andcritical self-reflection to
(47:53):
constantly be thinking about theways that we fall into this
paternalism, maternalism,whatever.
So I, I don't know how
Mandy (48:01):
White supremacy, basically
katy (48:03):
Yes, yes.
Mandy (48:05):
that's, that's,
katy (48:06):
or we think, and I don't, honestly, I think she probably
wouldn't have cared about, like,I don't think what I just said
would've resonated with herbecause I think she was still
advocating very explicitly forsegregation and like
Mandy (48:18):
mm-hmm.
katy (48:18):
unapologetic about her
Mandy (48:19):
Mm-hmm.
katy (48:20):
hierarchy.
So there we're, you know, that'sdifferent.
But I do just still so often seelike a, like a.
Pity or like disbelief that, Idon't know, the just, and still
a desire to like protect you andyour own and the, and, and still
have connections to this systemas we're like, you know, nicer
(48:45):
to the help to put it superbluntly, you
Mandy (48:48):
Well following into that, yeah, that white saviorism
complex that still reinforcesthose hierarchical.
Rungs and boxes, while allowingwhite people to feel good about
themselves, and particularlywhite women, I think in a lot of
ways to feel good aboutthemselves because they can
(49:10):
still believe that they, we, aswe're trying to be more
critical, can still believe thatwe are doing good and trying to
uplift, you know, these poorpeople, but we're still seeing
them as separate.
Still having that kind of lenson them
katy (49:31):
And
Mandy (49:31):
the way,
katy (49:32):
like who, what it even means to be those people.
Mandy (49:36):
right.
katy (49:36):
a quote that I just read for a book I'm working on with
some friends, and I think it'sgonna make it into the book, but
I've been reading James Baldwin.
notes of a Native Son, andthere's this really incredible
quote, like, Baldwin's just anincredible writer to
Mandy (49:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy (49:52):
a lot to say about this exact issue.
Yeah, a lot to say, but it'sthis really fantastic quote.
He says, I am what timecircumstance, history have made
of me.
Certainly, am also much morethan that.
So are we all.
And I, I think that he, and he'sin some ways in this essay.
(50:14):
The progressive white person whostill is very paternalistic
maternalistic, or who expectslike, oh, I'll lift something up
because it's authenticallyblack, or authentically
indigenous, or like whateveridea we have of what, like in a
very tokenizing, fetishizing,exotifying sort of way.
(50:34):
But everyone is more complicatedthan that.
And being able to focused on thesystems and the structures that.
Reinforce and reproduce andpolice these hierarchies and
systems and binaries and all ofthat.
And so Baldwin being this queerblack man it, contemporary of
the people that we're readingabout right now, calling
(50:55):
bullshit on all of that is superhelpful.
And hard to really process like,so what does that mean for how
that's living in me and how I amreproducing that still myself.
Mandy (51:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, lots of very complicatedthings to think about, and I
think then taking that a stepfurther, and this is maybe we
would never know how Nell BattleLewis would see herself today,
but if.
If people actually take thatopportunity to be critical and
to look at themselves, and thento try to right the wrongs
(51:33):
they've made or change the waythat they're doing things in the
future, looking at how we thenaccept that or don't accept that
and that, or critique theirmethods of getting to that
point.
I guess what I'm thinking abouttoo, in this is.
People who have supported Trumpand MAGA and everything in the
(51:56):
past and are now somehow openingtheir eyes in one way or
another, whether it's the iceraids or the way that tariffs
are affecting farmers or youknow, whatever the Epstein
thing, and actually protectingchildren
katy (52:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (52:14):
turning away from that support that they once had
there.
I don't know how, how IFI, Idon't know how I feel about
that, I guess is I do know how Ifeel about it, and I wonder if
I'm right and how I feel aboutit.
I think I'm probably not, I, Istill feel very rejecting.
Of those people like as like a,no, fuck you.
(52:35):
You should have known.
This is, it's absolutelyasinine.
There was plenty of evidencethat all of this was gonna
happen and was gonna be reallybad and you didn't fucking
listen.
So I don't give a shit that youcare now.
Like that's my gut reaction toall of that.
But is that, I don't know ifthat's the right reaction to
have, but I also dunno if Itrust.
(52:57):
Their turnaround, or if they'rejust being more like Lewis in
their ability to condemn certainkinds of violence and certain
kinds of things they don'tsupport, but they still wanna
uphold this underlyingsuperiority.
Obviously that's what they votedfor.
(53:17):
That's why they ignored all thesigns.
katy (53:19):
would add to that is I think the.
pe a lot of very vocal opponentsof MAGA and Trump are still
bought into all of this too.
Mandy (53:29):
Yeah.
katy (53:29):
just, I guess that's my takeaway is, is just how, so
like no one's off the hook and,and the, I don't think Right,
like self-righteousness ishelpful at all because odds are,
sorry, I'm not, I'm not eventalking to you specifically, but
Sure.
I get like it's, I just because.
I at the, it's just so unlikelythat any, especially white
(53:54):
people, regardless of class orrega, you know, like there's,
it's just the odds are that wehaven't fully clicked in yet to
what is required to dismantlewhite supremacy and to like
really fundamentally do that.
And I, and I, this isn't thesame kind of suspicion of.
People who are formallyeducated, that MAGA has that I,
(54:17):
I just think also like, justlike a graduate of Smith and
coming back, this moderncosmopolitan woman, like there's
nothing inherent in that.
That means you quote, get it,you know, or that you are
somehow like more enlightened.
So I just, I think like a.
Healthy humility and like justconstant self-reflection that
(54:39):
doesn't keep us from action, butthat that is informing our
actions and checking our actionsis really.
Useful.
So I guess that's how
Mandy (54:48):
Yeah.
katy (54:48):
about it more than like, whether I accept or reject them
or trust them or don't trustthem.
It's like, I don't, like, I, I,I'm trying to make sure I can
trust myself and that's
Mandy (55:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (55:01):
like, that's priority number one,
Mandy (55:02):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (55:04):
So
Mandy (55:05):
Alright,
katy (55:06):
I'm
Mandy (55:06):
I'll take it.
katy (55:07):
not wrong.
I'm just saying that's the I'mthinking about
Mandy (55:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's a very helpful way tothink about it.
I did wanna bring up reallyquickly.
katy (55:14):
Yes.
Mandy (55:15):
that I did.
Just a quick little search onwhether there was any
information, if Nell Battle hadany queer tendencies.
katy (55:22):
Oh,
Mandy (55:23):
no, there's no information on that whatsoever.
She actually was married once,very briefly for one year.
katy (55:33):
Okay.
I mean, being married is no,like,
Mandy (55:36):
No, no.
Yeah, no, it's not any sort ofproof.
katy (55:39):
but mm-hmm.
Mandy (55:39):
No.
The interesting thing though,about why they divorced because
after that she never remarried,although she was engaged
briefly.
One other time, is the accountsof why they divorced was mainly
because of conflictingexpectations.
In marriage and what she shouldhave been doing as a wife and
her independent nature and roleand activism.
katy (56:02):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (56:03):
her relationship apparently did seem to suffer
from the role that she wastaking.
So,
katy (56:10):
Yeah, it
Mandy (56:11):
interesting.
katy (56:11):
what, what an important case, this woman.
So I, as
Mandy (56:16):
Yeah.
katy (56:16):
it was to read about it, I'm glad we did.
So the
Mandy (56:18):
Yeah.
katy (56:18):
part of the book moves into a different era, and we're
going to be reading aboutexamples from 1942 to 1974, and
the, the title is so intriguing,partisan Betrayals a Bad Woman.
Weak white men and the end oftheir party.
So
Mandy (56:38):
Hmm.
katy (56:38):
wait.
Mandy (56:39):
Okay.
katy (56:39):
it's scratching all my, like reality TV itches for the
week.
Mandy (56:43):
Love it.
I
katy (56:44):
but
Mandy (56:45):
love it.
Okay.
katy (56:46):
Of course, as always, and please make sure you're
subscribed and if you like whatwe're doing to please rate it.
I mean I of course if you don'tlike it, I gotta.
Leave comments too, but why areyou listening?
If you don't like it, just don'tlisten.
But just, yeah, thanks toeveryone who is listening and
reading along with this book andwe're just excited to keep
moving through.
So
Mandy (57:04):
All right, we'll talk to you soon.
Bye.
katy (57:07):
Bye.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi.
We're back.
katy (00:17):
I am so proud of us.
We are
Mandy (00:19):
We,
katy (00:19):
think having a book helps.
Mandy (00:21):
yeah, we really are better when we have something
katy (00:25):
The structure
Mandy (00:25):
to
katy (00:26):
chapter by chapter.
Read
Mandy (00:28):
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And so here we are.
We're doing
katy (00:31):
chapter
Mandy (00:32):
four of Elizabeth Gillespie McCray's book, mothers
of Massive Resistance, and thischapter focuses on.
Jim Crow storytelling, which isjust the shaping of history.
That's really interesting.
But before we get into that, Iwanted to follow up just on a
little snippet of what we talkedabout in the last episode.
katy (00:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (00:55):
'cause we were talking about FDRs New Deal initiatives
and how.
Typically, I think history viewsthat as this very progressive
liberal push.
But we saw in the last chapterhow that was actually used in
some ways to further entrenchwhite supremacy into structural
systems.
But there was this component ofFDR and the New Deal that we
(01:19):
were unsure of the significanceof, and that was his effort to
pack the courts.
katy (01:25):
And
Mandy (01:25):
and.
katy (01:26):
why the women featured in chapter three cared so much
about that issue and why thatwould be like, just such a, a
spark plug to get signaturesfrom women all over.
And you know, why?
Why would people
Mandy (01:39):
Yeah.
katy (01:40):
that issue
Mandy (01:41):
Yeah.
And because one of them, eventhough they were both initially
F-D-F-D-R supporters and kind ofhad their own issues with it,
one of them was very supportiveof packing the courts.
And then the other one was veryagainst packing the courts.
So I found this little synopsisI wanted to go on and be like,
how did I never learn aboutthis?
And.
Your little insight I probablydid and forgot about it.
katy (02:04):
just forgot.
I don't know.
Maybe we didn't ever learn aboutit.
That's fair too.
Mandy (02:08):
Well, there's one little section that makes me think that
I did, because I feel like I'veheard about it before.
But basically very quickly, thereason the FDR wanted to pack
the courts was when he tookoffice in the early thirties.
He came into this country thatwas just basically in downfall,
the Great Depression.
There was industrial productionplummeted.
(02:31):
So many people were unemployed,people were literally starving,
homeless, all of these things.
So he was voted in and he islike, I have to get this country
out of this tailspin.
So he came up with a new deal asa way to try to do that.
But very quickly, the SupremeCourt started to knock down all
(02:55):
of these components of the NewDeal because they thought that
it was infringing.
It was the federal governmentinfringing on states rights be
able to control industry andcommerce.
Basically.
They didn't want the federalgovernment, they thought the
federal government wasoverstepping its role.
And so all of these.
Things that FDR wanted to getdone were being stymied
(03:17):
basically by the Supreme Courtand the Supreme Court at that
time, as currently in some wayswas very overloaded with old
people.
And so FDR was like, here's theproblem.
Yeah, exactly.
Old white men of course.
And specifically and FDR waslike, we're never gonna get this
(03:40):
new progressive stuff pushedthrough by a bunch of old white
dudes.
So I am gonna expand the court.
And his ways expanding the courtwas to say that for every
justice over the age of 70.
Who did not retire, then youcould add a new justice.
katy (04:01):
Is, it's so interesting to think he framed it as an age
thing.
Mandy (04:06):
I mean, I get it.
katy (04:08):
it
Mandy (04:08):
Also, it wasn't making them step down.
It was just like, if you don'tstep down, we're gonna basically
counter you.
I'm gonna appoint somebodyyounger who's just gonna negate.
Your voice in this things,
katy (04:24):
there is, I mean, well maybe negate, like you never
know for sure how a
Mandy (04:27):
right?
katy (04:28):
go and I, I do just think it's.
Bonkers.
I mean, we could go into theSupreme Court for weeks and
weeks and weeks and weigh intoall kinds of rabbit holes, but
just the, the lifetimeappointment, and I think we've
seen in the last few years, howletting them kind of govern
themselves in terms of ethicsrules is just not a super
effective way to make sure thatthey're.
Acting ethically.
Mandy (04:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (04:49):
it's like a, a wild branch of government that I find
endlessly fascinating.
Like a, a piece of the judicialbranch that is just so
interesting how it's set up.
Okay, so
Mandy (05:00):
Yeah, for sure.
katy (05:01):
70 in the thirties is old.
Mandy (05:03):
pretty old.
Yep.
That's equivalent to ournineties today, probably
katy (05:07):
yeah.
Like in age inflation, right.
Mandy (05:10):
Exactly.
So he started this push toexpand the court in his first
term.
Then he was reelected in alandslide in his second term,
and the court got worried.
'cause as you can imagine.
The old man white court was nothappy about his proposal.
They were offended by it.
katy (05:29):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (05:30):
said one of the reasons was because of their age, they
were unable to hear court casesin a timely enough manner, and
they were backed up and so theyneeded.
katy (05:41):
thought you meant they literally couldn't hear like,
Mandy (05:43):
Yeah
katy (05:43):
hearing aid technology had
Mandy (05:45):
that as well.
katy (05:46):
Maybe, maybe that too.
Mandy (05:48):
Yeah, no, he was just calling them slow basically,
which really pissed them off aswell and actually was not
congruous at all with what wasgoing on because they were
striking down his initiativeslike
katy (06:00):
ways he
Mandy (06:00):
very quickly.
So it's like, nope, they're notmessing around, but that's not
really legitimate.
But they were mad.
But when he won in a landslide,then they got worried
katy (06:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:09):
He has this kind of initiative behind him, this
power behind him, and he mightactually get this through.
So then they started to reversetheir rulings on some of their
more contemporary cases to goagainst what they had said in
the past.
But they were still, there wasstill this fight for it.
(06:30):
The part that I had notremembered that I really think.
We did learn about, and let'ssee if you can remember this.
So they had this debate July of1937 on the Senate floor with
Senate majority leader JoeRobinson of Arkansas leading the
fight for enacting it.
So he had helped a lot of theNew Deal stuff go through in the
(06:52):
Senate and he named the, he gotthis nickname of Scrappy Joe
because he would basicallystrong arm people into
supporting.
What he wanted to get done.
So he was on the floor givingthis opening speech about how
they needed to pass this courtpacking initiative.
But the problem was thisWashington DC in July, they were
(07:15):
suffering this uncharacteristicheat wave at that point in time,
and there was no airconditioning, obviously, back in
the thirties.
And so they were arguing this asan in an un-air conditioned
chamber.
And frankly, many of the peoplein the Senate were a bunch of
old white dudes as well.
katy (07:35):
sweating, literally
Mandy (07:36):
Yeah.
Sweating.
Yeah.
And arguing on the floor becausethey still argued a bit more, I
think, vehemently or physicallyor what, at that point in time.
Not duals as they used to doback in, but still getting
really into it.
So there were.
(07:57):
A third of the senators at thattime were over the age of 60
Robinson opened by with a twohour long speech on the court
floor, and throughout the timeit was documented that he just
had like this reddened face thathe was sweating the whole time.
And here's what happened.
It says his trademark vigorflagged, and when he returned to
(08:18):
his apartment that night, hedropped dead from the heat and
the stress.
katy (08:24):
Oh
Mandy (08:24):
He, he literally died.
katy (08:28):
Trying
Mandy (08:28):
That seems familiar to me.
I feel like we learned that.
katy (08:33):
It's not it.
We took all the same literal,same classes and
Mandy (08:37):
Yeah.
katy (08:37):
to each other and it's doing nothing for me.
If that makes you feel anybetter.
Mandy (08:40):
Okay, good.
It does, but that's
katy (08:44):
is that why
Mandy (08:44):
wild.
So that's why it failed,
katy (08:47):
Hmm.
Mandy (08:47):
because he was.
Dead and lost like his greatestsupporter.
And so then the rivals that wereagainst it, like took that
opportunity to move in and takeover, and they defeated the bill
and it just died
katy (08:59):
It's, it's akin
Mandy (09:01):
and figuratively.
katy (09:02):
literally and figuratively when we talk about just like,
oh, if only people had therapywhen they were young, our world
would be so different.
But there's also all thesemoments in history that are just
so.
Like accidental or just like,oh, there's a crazy storm.
And so the Spanish armadacouldn't make it through.
It's like just completely actsof God, for lack of a
Mandy (09:22):
Yeah.
katy (09:22):
phrase, that route history, a completely different
direction.
And that is one of them.
Like, what if he hadn't?
Mandy (09:28):
Yeah.
katy (09:28):
What if it hadn't been so hot?
What if he, you know what Imean?
Just.
Mandy (09:31):
know.
Yeah.
And that was it.
And that was the last time thata president ever tried to
formally, like seriously triedto, in an effort to get the
courts to expand.
katy (09:44):
Well, we'll see.
I feel like it's in so many wayseverything we're learning about
this era, and this is the lastchapter in that era of the
twenties, thirties, and then,
Mandy (09:53):
Mm-hmm.
katy (09:53):
Gillespie McRay is gonna move on to the forties, fifties,
sixties, early seventies.
But this era is just.
Seeming so familiar to us, somaybe we'll see this become a
bigger issue.
Who knows?
I feel like everything andanything is on the table right
now, and that's bothoverwhelming and terrifying.
And exhilarating and you know,like what could be possible?
(10:15):
I dunno.
It's what
Mandy (10:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy (10:17):
what we keep talking about, how we're like just all
the emotions, everythingeverywhere, all at once.
Mandy (10:23):
Exactly, so perfect.
katy (10:25):
Well,
Mandy (10:25):
way to describe it.
katy (10:27):
update.
Yeah, that's, that isinteresting.
A little, a little giant.
I have to say that so far everychapter has been so good.
This one I think hit me reallyhard because in all the years
we've been doing this, one of myfavorite things to learn about
are white women who considerthemselves liberal or
progressive, who still are just.
(10:47):
the same old, same old, justpackaging it up differently.
And this, wow.
Is this woman a great case studyin
Mandy (10:55):
Mm-hmm.
katy (10:55):
Nell Battle Lewis,
Mandy (10:58):
Yes.
katy (10:59):
with her name since this is your daughter's name?
Mandy (11:01):
Absolutely.
That was like my number onething reading it.
katy (11:05):
She's not.
Why you Nell
Mandy (11:07):
not at all why we named Nell Nell, but I'm glad that I
didn't know about this womanbefore I named her Nell.
I love that name.
I was so mad.
I was like, what?
How dare she?
I mean,
katy (11:20):
I mean,
Mandy (11:21):
and maybe because it's also so unique, you know, like
you can't get that irritated bylike a Matthew who's an asshole.
There's 8 billion of them andjust found to happen and there's
so many good ones as well.
But I'm like, no, that's so,yeah, individual.
And I'm pissed that she turnedout to be such a raun.
katy (11:44):
figure.
Mandy (11:45):
Very.
katy (11:46):
let, this whole chapter is just about her.
Mandy (11:49):
Yeah.
katy (11:49):
I think let's start just with some foundational info.
So this, I think the fact thatshe is.
North Carolinian is important
Mandy (11:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:00):
one thing I appreciate about, there's so much that I
love about this historian's workand just how I think she's a
brilliant scholar.
Is the way that she foregroundshow much the context, the
specific context, like the Southis not the same across the south
and being in North Carolina.
Was different than being inGeorgia.
And for this woman inparticular, she really wanted
(12:22):
North Carolina to be seen asdifferent from the other parts
of the south, like morecosmopolitan, more
sophisticated.
And so one of the reasons shewas.
against the more egregious formsof white supremacy is because
she didn't want her state lumpedin with all these other states.
Mandy (12:40):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:41):
but she ultimately was still very much a supporter of
white supremacy.
So I, I cannot, yeah, I, I'mexcited to get into how both
those things can be true,because I, I just think today,
white liberalism, whiteprogressivism is.
Falling into all the same trapsand just
Mandy (12:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy (13:00):
notice that, to stop it, to call ourselves out, to be
able to alert other people to itis super important.
Mandy (13:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (13:08):
she's from North Carolina.
What else do you rememberreading about
Mandy (13:11):
So the other super interesting thing about that is
she's from North Carolina, butshe left the South for a while.
So her early education, shestarted it seems like her
college education at GoucherCollege in Maryland.
But she then transferred andattended Smith College in North
(13:34):
h Hampton, Massachusetts, whichI feel like I don't know
anything about.
Goucher or Goucher, not sure howit's pre pronounced.
So sorry to anyone.
katy (13:44):
We could never
Mandy (13:44):
Yeah, and it's probably wrong.
It's neither of those.
Someone's very angry right now.
Let us know.
But Smith College today, and Ithink even back then was known
for being incredibly liberal.
And it seems like it was at thatpoint in time too, because it
says that she attendedintegrated classes.
There were.
(14:05):
Black and white politicalleaders that were speaking on
campus.
There were debates about women'ssuffrage.
The curriculum in generalchallenged the conservatism that
dominated the south for sure,and much of the north.
And so she went to all of thateducation, sat all that
(14:27):
education, and even seemed in alot of ways to bring it back
with her.
katy (14:32):
Oh,
Mandy (14:32):
'cause it says.
katy (14:34):
Absolutely.
Mandy (14:34):
interviewed for her first job, and the editors noted that
she was dressed in Jod first,which I'm guessing are like
those, are those those pantaloonkind of pants that women wore
instead of skirts?
katy (14:48):
pants that are like bigger on the top and then kind of
Mandy (14:51):
Yeah.
katy (14:52):
at the end.
Mandy (14:52):
Yep,
katy (14:53):
it
Mandy (14:53):
yep.
katy (14:53):
yeah.
Pants.
My God,
Mandy (14:55):
Pants.
She was wearing pants, a blazer,boots, and a hat, and had kind
of this androgynouspresentation.
So she was not in any way yourstereotypical southern woman of
that time, and she came back toNorth Carolina to be a
journalist and started workingat this newspaper.
(15:18):
So it's interesting with thatbackground, you would think, oh,
okay, here's some hope forthings.
katy (15:25):
but this is where I think it's so important to look at how
she fancied herself, a modernwoman, and was read as that by
other.
White people and know, evencalled a radical or you know, it
Mandy (15:38):
Yeah.
katy (15:39):
was advocating for modernity in, in quotes.
But that modernity is absolutelynot incompatible with white
supremacy.
And I think that's the piecethat it is so, so, so important
about this woman's life as acase to study, is that she could
be really critical of.
(16:00):
The south and ways thatignorance or intolerance were
flourished while at the absolutesame time still promoting.
White supremacy.
It's just a different version ofit where white people are still
in charge, but there it is justdifferent white people who are
genteel and educated andliterate and artsy, but they're
(16:21):
kinder and softer in that theyaren't lynching people, but
they're absolutely the onesstill in charge
Mandy (16:27):
Which actually makes it like even a little more
katy (16:30):
it's so, it's so gross.
Yes.
Right.
Mandy (16:34):
Because you can, you know, a shoe that violence.
Like overtly racist rhetoricwhile still deeply entrenching
it.
And then.
katy (16:46):
Yes.
Mandy (16:48):
Calling yourself benevolent at the same breath.
It's so wild.
And the other, the other justone part that I thought was
interesting'cause we always talkabout how maybe some good, like
family therapy would help mostpeople not become the assholes
they became, is that it alsonoted that her father and
brothers characterized her asabnormal, eccentric, and perhaps
(17:11):
even mentally unstable.
katy (17:13):
Well, she
Mandy (17:13):
So
katy (17:14):
institutionalized for a
Mandy (17:15):
yeah,
katy (17:15):
that I really would love to ask Elizabeth Gillespie
McCray, hopefully we get achance to talk to her to ask her
more about that, because thatjust gets mentioned really
briefly and I thought, whoa,what led to that?
Did she take herself there?
Was she put there?
What hap like, how did that allhappen?
Yeah, I, I do think there's someinteresting family dynamics
going on and her half brothers,it sounds like were very active
(17:38):
on the other side of things.
I mean,
Mandy (17:40):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:40):
ultimately on the same side.
They're just arguing fordifferent methods, I guess.
Mandy (17:45):
Yep.
katy (17:46):
this, there's a lot in here, but I think it's not just
that she was able to.
Take white liberalism into thesouth, but that, for her white
women in particular, had a superspecial and important role in
that.
So this is on page 1 0 2 forLewis.
It was only when whitesoutherners failed to act
properly.
That problems arose, and it wasoften white men who precipitated
(18:07):
those problems leaving whitewomen as the real guardians over
a racial segregation that couldlast to,
Mandy (18:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy (18:15):
a more benevolent in huge quotes.
You know, idea about the, theracial order and being able to
tie it to these economicpolicies in particular.
Yeah, just like taking theseprogressive politics and then
making white women the, theinterlocutors, like the people
who are best able to maintain aracial, a racialized white
(18:39):
supremacist social order that'smore sustainable because it
doesn't.
these really extreme, flagrantforms of violence.
Mandy (18:50):
Yeah.
katy (18:51):
I mean
Mandy (18:51):
Yeah.
katy (18:52):
it's, I think you're right.
Like there is just like a, aninsidiousness or a level of this
that's so much more disturbingin some ways.
It's not like we need tocompete.
It's all disturbing.
I don't think we need to likerank order the disturbing
Mandy (19:05):
I don't think it's ranking.
I think it's like to ourunderlying purpose that you
mentioned in the beginning thatwhite women have gotten away
with so much shit.
I feel like without having toanswer for it.
katy (19:21):
right.
Mandy (19:22):
being able to recognize that so that we don't repeat it
is what we're aiming toconfront, I think, in all of
this review.
katy (19:34):
Just how much it's still alive today.
Like
Mandy (19:36):
Yeah.
katy (19:36):
this is page 87.
That, that, so she becomes,she's this journalist.
She and we'll get into a littlebit more about her professional
skillset and how she used that.
But in her capacity as ajournalist and a columnist, she
celebrated a world led byeducated white progressives,
white female reformers and blackelites, and populated by
oppressed white industrialworkers and black Southerners
(19:58):
receptive to enlightened.
white leadership.
So that's the world order she'simagining as the ideal
Mandy (20:05):
Yeah.
katy (20:05):
not.
She's even com complimentingHarlem Renaissance writers, like
she's not interested in blackerasure, but she's interested in
a very clear.
Social order and hierarchy andeverybody's sort of having their
place within it.
So in, whether it's the eventsthat she's covering and how
she's narrating those historicalevents unfolding before, before
(20:27):
her, some that she's involvedin, especially labor strikes
and, and labor unrest, or whenshe's covering and she's acting
as like a literary critic or apop culture critic.
She is never.
Well, she does actually eraseinterracial cooperation when it
comes to labor organizing.
We'll get into that, but she's,she's very much like a, why are
(20:47):
black people trying to doShakespeare?
Like they, they should be doingthis thing that they're good at
and stop trying to pretend to bewhite people.
It, all of it is just, it, itwas like being in a fun house
mirror.
Just the, the sophisticationthat she was able to keep white
supremacy at the heart ofeverything.
Mandy (21:05):
Yeah.
katy (21:05):
really wanna get into like how she was able to do that, but
I did wanna talk a little bitabout her career.
Mandy (21:12):
Yeah,
katy (21:12):
married?
I don't know if I missed
Mandy (21:14):
it never mentioned that she was married or had children.
katy (21:17):
a queer lady?
I feel like there are queercoded
Mandy (21:21):
Oh, yeah.
katy (21:22):
but who knows?
It's
Mandy (21:23):
Interesting.
katy (21:24):
in that time, like what, how people identified or what
they were involved in.
Mandy (21:29):
Yeah.
But she was the first femalestaff writer
katy (21:33):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:33):
at the.
Raleigh knew an observer and shewrote a column called
incidentally, which isinteresting.
And it ran, it saiduninterrupted for 45 years,
katy (21:47):
I couldn't believe that.
Yeah.
Mandy (21:49):
which is such an amazingly long time,
katy (21:53):
Yes.
Mandy (21:53):
it seems like her writing did.
I cover, like you said, so manydifferent things.
Everything from currentpolitical events, to cultural
items, to reviews of books, inplays, all of this kinda stuff
but in a very romanticized way.
katy (22:10):
Yes.
Mandy (22:11):
it says on the top of page 88, it's talking about how
she said when she returned homefrom her travel, she celebrated
seeing the first shacks of blacksharecroppers because they told
her she was home romanticizingeconomic outcomes of
segregation.
In fact, the story she wroteoffered up both the black elite
and black folk, but such writingoften served to educate white
(22:33):
people about the appropriateplace of blacks and whites in a
Jim Crow world.
katy (22:39):
Yes
Mandy (22:39):
when she did critique these plays or artistic works or
poems that she was, and booksthat she was critiquing in her
column, she celebrated the blackelite, but only if they stayed
within what she considered theirblackness should be.
She had this big thing aboutblack elites.
(23:03):
Imitating white people.
katy (23:06):
Which to
Mandy (23:07):
Sh
katy (23:07):
my God, there, I, there were so many parts where I felt
like physically sick, but thefact
Mandy (23:11):
yeah.
katy (23:11):
her, her understanding is, you know, black people are
imitating white people and Ithought that the irony of
thinking that that's what'shappening is.
It so beyond belief, like thehistory of white people
appropriating black culture isso, so, so, so, so, so long in
(23:31):
the United States.
And so her criticism of that iswild to me and.
And it is, this is where it justbecomes kind of like fun house
mirrors where she's, she'sgatekeeping.
Things like Shakespeare, likewhy don't try to perform
Shakespeare?
It's just gonna look wrong.
It's just gonna be wrong.
Like, do your
Mandy (23:49):
Yep.
katy (23:50):
like have your own thing.
And there it was this momentwhere I thought, oh my God, so
hard to like pin down some ofthese.
Positions and why they'reproblematic.
Because when I think about likethe eighties, nineties, even
today, arguments in educationabout the curriculum and what
kids should be exposed to, like,one of the critiques that I've
(24:12):
made and that I continue to makeis, you know, to critique the
canon of works like Shakespeare.
It's not to say get rid ofShakespeare, and it's certainly
not to say.
white kids should doShakespeare.
Like everyone can accessShakespeare.
Everyone can love Shakespeare.
The problem is when we positionShakespeare as like the, the
only, or the most important orthe best or whatever.
(24:33):
so being able to open up thecanon for other works of
brilliance and creativity thatinclude, know, radically
different ways of expressingourselves and telling stories
that are not rooted in.
Whiteness or Europeanist orChristianity or whatever.
And so it, it's this momentwhere I was like, there's this
sliver of overlap in thearguments that she's making with
(24:54):
arguments of like verydedicated, anti oppressive
educators are making, or eventhinking about arguments like in
the eighties and nineties aboutEbonics and being able to
recognize and appreciate.
Black vernacular, a like AfricanAmerican vernacular, English as
like a, a you know, like as a, areally significant and important
dialect in its own right.
Like that is so important.
(25:15):
And I feel like she would'vebeen on board with that.
Like
Mandy (25:18):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:20):
we diverge is that she's like, that's your lane.
Stay in it.
And that, so it's the, it's,it's just so uncomfortable to be
aligned in any way, for anyamount of time, you know, and,
and to, to be able to.
To craft arguments that helpexplain to people why that alone
and on its own is so troubling.
(25:41):
It's not because it's, it's likeso much easier to say, let's
make sure black kids learnShakespeare.
Or Black kids shouldn't learnShakespeare like the, the kind
of simplistic binary that'seasier to sell one way or
another.
But either of those is still.
Rooted in white supremacy, likethe, understanding of the world
that's not, is just needs moreexplanation and context and I,
(26:04):
it's hard, it's hard to do that,you know,
Mandy (26:07):
Yeah.
katy (26:08):
anyway, just that, that discomfort of like, even for 0.8
Mandy (26:11):
Yeah.
katy (26:12):
thinking like, oh, I, there's something there worth
exploring, but not where she'staking it and not motivated by
what she's motivated by.
Mandy (26:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
It reminded me too, of therecent kerfuffle about when they
had a, a black actor play theLittle Mermaid
katy (26:32):
Oh,
Mandy (26:32):
the latest rendition of that, and people just absolutely
lost their shit.
katy (26:36):
Yeah.
Mandy (26:38):
I thought of that when I was thinking of her critiques of
like black students readingShakespeare or performing
Shakespeare.
She was just like, what?
No, this can't be.
It's also one of the reasons Iloved the series Bridgeton so
much.
katy (26:50):
Oh,
Mandy (26:50):
I don't know if you watched any of that.
katy (26:52):
I, I watched a little bit of the first season and I
totally can appreciate thecritiques and the reasons people
love.
Mandy (26:58):
yeah,
katy (26:58):
all of that.
Yeah.
Mandy (26:59):
yeah, yeah.
But one of the things they do iscast characters.
Whose like, you know, genderidentities and racial
backgrounds are completely
katy (27:10):
Right.
Mandy (27:10):
not aligned with what that historical thing would've
been.
katy (27:16):
intentionally doing that as a way to like push the
envelope today.
Mandy (27:19):
Yeah.
But they also don't ever mentionit
katy (27:22):
Right,
Mandy (27:22):
in the plot line.
Like it's obviously an overtthing that they're doing, and
then it's also not part of thestorylines when it's brought.
katy (27:31):
like,
Mandy (27:31):
just interesting.
katy (27:33):
or is that not
Mandy (27:34):
You are right.
katy (27:35):
all of these questions, they, they get complicated.
So it, but it's, it explains howshe can have what seem to be
contradictory positions, butthey're actually not
contradictory when you dig downfurther.
Mandy (27:48):
Yeah.
katy (27:48):
celebrate and protect Langston Hughes coming to UNC
and want people to read hispoetry.
But it's because she thinks itlike.
Lives in this place that makessense to her and is like, that's
their work over there and thenhere's our work over here.
And you like she can see it allliving but doesn't want it It's
(28:08):
just still very literal, blackand white thinking and very
binary and like that.
She's pro segregation.
Mandy (28:14):
Yeah.
katy (28:14):
similar to me to how you could have abolitionists who
were vehemently opposed toslavery, who were still racist
or anti-black or what didn'twant.
Who could support segregation asmuch as they hated slavery.
on the surface you're like, howcould that be?
But once you start to thinkabout their reasoning, you're
like, oh, of course.
That's the conclusion they cameto, you know,
Mandy (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:35):
people still come to today
Mandy (28:37):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:38):
about like the arguments of, of Beyonce's Cowboy Carter
album and the, this policing ofgenre and like, whose story is
authentic or what does it meanto do X, Y, or Z?
It's like that.
That is such a beautiful,important work of art to look at
as challenging that and, andraising, raising awareness about
(29:02):
the history of this genre tobegin with and the
Mandy (29:04):
Yep.
katy (29:05):
of black people from that genre and just all of it, like
it, these are still such ongoingissues in pop culture and I, I
loved even thinking about popculture as the side of this,
because in the chapter.
McRay even says it's, it's notjust the school system.
That's of course a side of this.
It's not just public policy.
(29:25):
It's not just electoralpolitics, it's also pop culture.
And even
Mandy (29:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy (29:29):
about the ways that, nell, the, non Nell that we, the
Mandy (29:35):
We know in love.
katy (29:36):
that
Mandy (29:37):
Mm-hmm.
katy (29:37):
could love Gone with the wind and, and loved Birth of a
Nation
Mandy (29:42):
Yes.
katy (29:43):
Langston Hughes.
It's like it all just seems sowild that someone could be a fan
of all of those things, but whenyou get down to this idea that
she just fully believed thatthis.
The best system is one in whichblack leadership means being
deferential and devoted anddependent on white, middle class
(30:05):
women.
Then it all makes sense,
Mandy (30:07):
Mm-hmm.
katy (30:07):
ding, ding.
If
Mandy (30:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (30:09):
crux of it, then that's, then it leads you to liking all
these seemingly disparate thingsand it leads to you advocating
for seemingly, you knowpositions that conflict with
each other, but they don'tactually.
Can we talk
Mandy (30:21):
Yeah.
katy (30:21):
about her love of mammies?
Mandy (30:25):
Oh, the whole mammy issue.
That was fascinating.
Okay, so in the, it's in thebook on page 90.
It says, in the immediateaftermath of the 1922 dedication
of the Lincoln Memorial, theUDC, our favorite, their
Washington DC branch gainedcongressional support for
granite tribute to black MammMaise.
(30:47):
So, Mississippi Senator JohnSharp Williams proposed and
received appropriations of$200,000 for it, which again,
$200,000.
katy (30:56):
money.
Mandy (30:57):
In that time period.
katy (30:59):
And this should also raise every red flag, like if a white.
Southern man who's in Congressis putting money towards the
celebration of something thatinvolves black people, that that
should just raise every alarmbell.
Like there's no way that can befor a good, like an actual good
reason.
And then it reminded
Mandy (31:17):
Yeah.
katy (31:18):
do you remember that suffrage monument that got
built?
Mandy (31:21):
Yes.
Yeah,
katy (31:21):
controversial.
Mandy (31:22):
in Uhhuh.
katy (31:23):
episode about it made me think of that too.
And I thought, oh my God.
It got like this memorial, likea monument for mammies was
actually gonna happen.
That's just so, I don't know whyI'm ever shocked about anything
anymore when we read thishistory, but this one shocked
me.
Mandy (31:39):
Yeah, so they were gonna build this monument, which is
basically just like, again,entrenching what they believe
the proper role
katy (31:50):
Yes,
Mandy (31:50):
of.
Black women should be, buttrying to act like these
benevolent actors inmemorializing them.
Like, look it, we're putting allthis money towards this to show
how much, you know, admirationand respect we have for black
women in this role.
As long as they do it, as we saythey should because they are
(32:13):
being deferential and.
Also subordinate to us in thisposition.
So obviously there were blacknewspapers that responded with a
lot of outrage to this.
In one of the articles that waspublished, this was Morris
Murray who was a newspaper andeditor and owner and art
historian.
He asked his readers to be morecritical in interpreting the
(32:35):
meaning of the sculptures Heasked them to evaluate.
Its obvious and also itsinsidious teachings.
So those black newspapers thencame up with their own
renditions of a Mamie statuewhere they kind of addressed
more of the sexual assault andlong hours and no wages kind of
(32:55):
exposing.
This is what these mammiesreally have to go through.
Instead of casting it in thisway, that's like somehow
romanticizing again, thisculture along with that.
katy (33:10):
Mm-hmm.
So the support, she really lovedMa.
I think she had like fond mepersonal memories, her of
Mandy (33:19):
Yes.
katy (33:20):
she GRA says she lamented a system based on paternalism
that was now passing with thechanging times.
And I think.
Had like this belief again inthis, what the system she's
arguing for is not totallygetting rid of white supremacy
at all.
It's just saying like, can't,why can't black women be in a
(33:43):
deferential supportive rolethat?
Wouldn't that be great?
And this imagined kind ofrelationship that she had
personally, or you know, how sheexplained it to herself in the,
in her head or just this largersystem?
That, yeah.
That it was just wild to me.
And, and that that's, she sawthe mammy figure as the
(34:06):
embodiment of that deference,devotion, independency.
Mandy (34:10):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:10):
and, and that she just really had this, I, it is called
paternalistic, but I wonder ifwe shouldn't call it
maternalism.
Mandy (34:17):
Yeah.
Why is it just paternalism?
It's heavily maternalistic,white maternalistic, I guess, if
you wanna,
katy (34:23):
Exactly.
And,
Mandy (34:25):
Yeah.
katy (34:25):
she just, like, if you keep thinking that she had this
idea of like, just be what youare, not in a way that actually
is anti-racist, you know, and
Mandy (34:36):
Well, and she thinks that she has.
Yeah.
And she thinks she has theauthority to say what people
are.
katy (34:43):
Yes.
Mandy (34:43):
question.
It's like who's defining whatpeople are.
katy (34:46):
she is, and
Mandy (34:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:48):
these boxes that are in a hierarchy.
So it's, this is that sliverwhere we would agree like be
what you are.
But for her, she, those, that'sa very.
Clear segregated, hierarchicalsystem, right?
And, and she was a eugenicist.
So I think that's another pointwhere when you get down to how
can someone hold what seems tobe on the surface, incongruous
(35:09):
beliefs when you push down, weshould never be surprised to see
eugenics.
At the heart of that, the factthat she had a eugenics
crossword puzzle, I thought, ohmy God.
Mandy (35:17):
Oh my gosh, that part?
katy (35:19):
it was wild.
Mandy (35:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (35:21):
was part of her modernity too, is like, oh, I believe in
science and I believe
Mandy (35:25):
Yeah.
katy (35:26):
You know, evolution and anthropology and, you know,
knowing the roots of all ofthose disciplines being so just
deep in racism and settlercolonialism and sexism and
ableism and all those things.
Again, it's
Mandy (35:40):
Well, you,
katy (35:41):
She's trying to get people to be sympathetic to the plight
of people in these boxes on thelower rungs of this ladder.
She's not in any way questioningthe ladder or the boxes.
It's
Mandy (35:54):
yes.
katy (35:54):
oh, for these poor, sad people in these boxes at the
bottom, they shouldn't have tolive in fear and they shouldn't
have to, you know, like live interrible.
Mental institutions or prisonsor like we should, they should
be more comfortable, but it's,it's not their fault that
they're in that box on thebottom, but they're definitely
in the box on that bottom andthe box is real and the ladder
(36:15):
is real.
Like all of that
Mandy (36:17):
Right, right.
Well, when there was one partthat was talking about her.
Push for reform of the legal andcarral system.
And she was very much againstthe way that black men were
treated, specifically black menwith mental disabilities, how
they were just put through thissystem without any consideration
(36:41):
of their mental disabilities andhow that might have affected.
What was going on at that time.
But she never even questionedthat these men were in trial, on
trial in the first place, mostlikely for crimes.
They did not even commit.
She wasn't questioning thatsystem at all.
It was just, well, once they'rein prison, we should treat them
(37:04):
better.
In that way it reminded me.
It, it, the term separate, butequal kept coming up in my mind.
She absolutely, but she believedin the equal part, but she just
as much, if not more believed inthe separate part.
katy (37:22):
It, and today I just think about, what's the acronym?
Nimby, the Not In My
Mandy (37:27):
Uhhuh.
katy (37:28):
ALS That, that, it just struck me so much that way.
Like, well, I don't want, youknow, poor kids of color.
Not being able to go to school,but I'm not gonna send my kid to
those schools.
You know, like there, there'sgotta be some separation there.
Like I, I know people who havemade that decision with that
logic, you know,
Mandy (37:47):
Mm-hmm.
katy (37:47):
bad, I've pity, I feel bad for, but they are different and
my kids's gonna get somethingbetter.
Mandy (37:54):
Yep.
katy (37:55):
and call themselves liberals and, and are like
horrified by Trump and like, youknow, think of themselves as
liberal people, but absolutelystill have this eugenics
thinking at the, the heart ofit, that that's why I think this
is such an instructive casebecause it's so pernicious and
it's still so pervasive and it'shard.
(38:17):
To point out because you reallydo have to unpack things a way
that takes some time to showpeople how this is all braided
together.
And I, you know, that's notalways the the case, but over
and over again, she hadopportunities to be in real
solidarity and she said no many,many
Mandy (38:35):
Yeah.
katy (38:35):
And, you know, wouldn't sign petitions, what wouldn't
come out against even though shefound it.
Distasteful or bad or whatever,but it seemed more because it
ma, it embarrassed her on thenational
Mandy (38:48):
Yes, yes.
katy (38:49):
what it was about than
Mandy (38:50):
It was more about this whole thing that you brought up
in the beginning about how theSouth was different and she saw
North Carolina is different fromthe other states in the south,
and she just felt like that kindof violence made them look bad.
And so she would write againstthat, but again, she wouldn't
join any sort of actual leaguesor committees or anything
(39:13):
organized against it.
She wouldn't sign petitions.
She'd just write about how whitepeople shouldn't act that way.
Basically.
katy (39:20):
Yes.
And there was a whole
Mandy (39:22):
What?
katy (39:22):
on labor struggles
Mandy (39:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy (39:25):
strikes like vi, that ended in people being murdered
by the state.
And, you know, really awful.
And I actually really wanna puta pin in the story of LMA
Wickeds, textile worker who had10 kids, five died due to
malnutrition.
And then she ends up gettingkilled as a activist, as a labor
activist like her.
And she.
(39:46):
Was I, as I understand it, awhite woman who was involved
Mandy (39:49):
Yep.
katy (39:50):
intentionally in building up an interracial group of
strikers.
So I'm super fascinated by herstory, but
Mandy (39:55):
Yep.
katy (39:55):
too far into the weeds there,'cause hopefully we learn
more about her, that Lewiscovered this event and covered
it sympathetically and coveredWiggins sympathetically that in
a way that erased theinterracial solidarity of it
all.
And.
Use that story to tell the storyshe wanted to tell.
Mandy (40:13):
Mm-hmm.
katy (40:14):
this is, I'm on page 98, that she Lewis witnessed a
grassroots political movementrising up from the working
class, yet she could not permitBlack North Carolinians working
class are otherwise to rejectthe guiding and paternalistic
hand of educated, enlightened,progressive whites.
Lewis, a white liberal woman andlike-minded men shaped a less
violent, more maternal, moremoderate white supremacist
(40:35):
state.
Where leaders took care of theirworkers.
White and black racialsegregation could be sustained
only if domesticated by whiteliberal women and men overseeing
a state that strove to honorseparate but equal.
So she adhered to the publicdemand for racial segregation.
At the same time, she supportedthe very individuals committed
to an interracial workersrevolution.
I cannot
Mandy (40:55):
Yeah.
katy (40:55):
how frustrating that would've been to be those people
who have this person, you know,speak on their behalf, but
mutating and warping and skewingthe work that they were doing.
Mandy (41:05):
Well, and it's also not, yeah, and it's also not like she
didn't know about.
katy (41:11):
oh, she
Mandy (41:11):
interracial cooperation.
It was in her notes.
It says in the beginning likeshe had notes where these people
that she was uplifting andsupporting had made statements
about believing in.
She talks about this one personlast name Foster.
She who wrote that, I believe,in a full social and political
equality for Negroes.
(41:32):
With all those terms imply, butthose notes just remained.
Notes and didn't make it intoher article about the strike, so
she, she knew it all.
She very intentionally leftthose part out, those parts out
to support the narrative thatshe wanted to sell about it.
katy (41:50):
Yes.
Yes.
and repeatedly refused a human'sright.
Discourse place of paternalismor maternalism, you know,
whatever term we decide to usethere.
And it, what it made me thinkabout is that classic Martin
Luther King quote.
I know we've quoted it evenrecently.
I think we
Mandy (42:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (42:09):
from his letter from a Birmingham jail where he talks
about his
Mandy (42:12):
The white moderate.
katy (42:13):
the white, moderate, and
Mandy (42:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy (42:15):
But she was absolutely supportive of gradualism if, and
not even gradualism, leading tofull.
Anything, you know, but agradualism to a white
supremacist system that waslike, I don't even wanna say
(42:35):
like softer, gentler, becauseit's just not like, it's still
white supremacy.
How could it be anything butawful?
You know?
But a, a version of things wherethere wasn't this level of
extreme violence that.
It, but this is where thematernalism or paternalism comes
in.
Like, I'm still in charge andI'm taking care of you because
you can't do that for yourself.
(42:56):
So just look, obey me and listento me and I will take care of
you.
Mandy (43:01):
Yeah,
katy (43:02):
I mean, just
Mandy (43:02):
there's this one story that it tells about that that
very position that she washolding as it pertained to her
critique of the carceral system.
She tells this story of twoblack prisoners who, so their
names were Woodrow Wilson, schShire, and Robert Barnes.
(43:23):
Who were arrested for larceny,one of them, and then drunk and
disorderly conduct the otherone.
So they were in cells that werenot heated during these 20
degree winter nights.
They suffered frostbite on theirtoes.
And these two men, men, I say,who were age 19 and 20.
katy (43:47):
Yeah.
Mandy (43:48):
barely men, boys.
Lost both of their feet and hadthem amputated and were left
crippled
katy (43:55):
Yeah.
Mandy (43:55):
this, and she went after this event.
I mean, very strongly condemnedthis treatment.
Wrote articles about it thatsays that her condemnation of
prison abuse would earn her aplace among some of the most
liberal activists of the 1930s,but it didn't push her to
actually condemn.
(44:17):
The racial segregation of thetime, she looked at it as a
failure of white people touphold a legal system that
guaranteed their superiority.
katy (44:29):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (44:29):
says not their infallibility, so she wanted
white people to see where thiswas a failure of how they could
be better.
But it didn't go any furtherthan that.
It's the same thing as thelynching argument.
It was her disappointment andhow it made white people look
not in her pushing more forequality of the black people
(44:52):
that it was actually affectingat that time.
It's so weird that she would beone of the most liberal people
of her time on many of theseissues, yet still be upholding.
The systemic inequality andracism and all of the structures
she was going after.
katy (45:09):
But that, I mean, I think that is
Mandy (45:10):
It's weird and not weird.
katy (45:11):
it's weird and not weird and it's the real gut chuck for
white people, and I would put usin this position who identify as
progressives or liberals or likewhatever the word is, you know,
is.
how vigilant and honest we haveto be with ourselves about how
that lives in us.
Like this, this is the quote onpage 1 0 4 that I had like at
(45:33):
multiple stars and underlinesand like highlighted in every
way that her racial politicsoffered.
Educated progressive whiteSoutherners, a politically
palatable way to digest thepolitics of white supremacy and
just how deep it goes.
And I, I am speaking personallyhere and how I have to.
Be vigilant about this in myselfand root this out in myself.
(45:55):
The desire to be like a goodperson who still lives in that
system.
it's I wanna, and I, I don'tknow how else to say it other
than.
And, well, here's, here's anexample of how this plays out.
So when I was working on mydissertation, I was studying
teachers who were trying to doanti-oppressive teaching in
(46:18):
schools of predominantly white,wealthy students.
A public school in like a verywealthy suburb and then a
private school that.
Was very expensive to attend andjust how complicated and weird
it is to try to do that sort ofteaching with those kids in
those places.
And like, is it even possible?
And what happens when you tryit?
And just, you know, those kindsof questions.
And one of the things that cameup when I was with the students
(46:41):
at this private school was howimportant it was for them to
distinguish themselves from thisother private school, like eight
blocks away.
That they weren't that kind ofprivileged, like we're not like
those are snobs, like those areconservative snobs and we aren't
that,
Mandy (47:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (47:01):
not able to extract themselves beyond that.
Mandy (47:06):
Mm-hmm.
katy (47:06):
to be, wanting to still benefit from the position of
hierarchy without.
Being critiqued for that becauseyou're nicer or kinder or
whatever.
And I remember one day theteacher at that school saying,
my goal is not to just helpthese kids be nicer to their
nannies
Mandy (47:26):
Yeah.
katy (47:26):
And
Mandy (47:26):
Yeah.
katy (47:27):
being like,
Mandy (47:27):
Yes.
katy (47:28):
it.
You
Mandy (47:29):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
katy (47:31):
I think that again, like it, this hits close to the bone
because.
You don't want to think that youare falling into these traps as
someone who is progressive orwhatever, but just how, how
likely we do and likely we are,and, and that it demands just
pretty brutal honesty andcritical self-reflection to
(47:53):
constantly be thinking about theways that we fall into this
paternalism, maternalism,whatever.
So I, I don't know how
Mandy (48:01):
White supremacy, basically
katy (48:03):
Yes, yes.
Mandy (48:05):
that's, that's,
katy (48:06):
or we think, and I don't, honestly, I think she probably
wouldn't have cared about, like,I don't think what I just said
would've resonated with herbecause I think she was still
advocating very explicitly forsegregation and like
Mandy (48:18):
mm-hmm.
katy (48:18):
unapologetic about her
Mandy (48:19):
Mm-hmm.
katy (48:20):
hierarchy.
So there we're, you know, that'sdifferent.
But I do just still so often seelike a, like a.
Pity or like disbelief that, Idon't know, the just, and still
a desire to like protect you andyour own and the, and, and still
have connections to this systemas we're like, you know, nicer
(48:45):
to the help to put it superbluntly, you
Mandy (48:48):
Well following into that, yeah, that white saviorism
complex that still reinforcesthose hierarchical.
Rungs and boxes, while allowingwhite people to feel good about
themselves, and particularlywhite women, I think in a lot of
ways to feel good aboutthemselves because they can
(49:10):
still believe that they, we, aswe're trying to be more
critical, can still believe thatwe are doing good and trying to
uplift, you know, these poorpeople, but we're still seeing
them as separate.
Still having that kind of lenson them
katy (49:31):
And
Mandy (49:31):
the way,
katy (49:32):
like who, what it even means to be those people.
Mandy (49:36):
right.
katy (49:36):
a quote that I just read for a book I'm working on with
some friends, and I think it'sgonna make it into the book, but
I've been reading James Baldwin.
notes of a Native Son, andthere's this really incredible
quote, like, Baldwin's just anincredible writer to
Mandy (49:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy (49:52):
a lot to say about this exact issue.
Yeah, a lot to say, but it'sthis really fantastic quote.
He says, I am what timecircumstance, history have made
of me.
Certainly, am also much morethan that.
So are we all.
And I, I think that he, and he'sin some ways in this essay.
(50:14):
The progressive white person whostill is very paternalistic
maternalistic, or who expectslike, oh, I'll lift something up
because it's authenticallyblack, or authentically
indigenous, or like whateveridea we have of what, like in a
very tokenizing, fetishizing,exotifying sort of way.
(50:34):
But everyone is more complicatedthan that.
And being able to focused on thesystems and the structures that.
Reinforce and reproduce andpolice these hierarchies and
systems and binaries and all ofthat.
And so Baldwin being this queerblack man it, contemporary of
the people that we're readingabout right now, calling
(50:55):
bullshit on all of that is superhelpful.
And hard to really process like,so what does that mean for how
that's living in me and how I amreproducing that still myself.
Mandy (51:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, lots of very complicatedthings to think about, and I
think then taking that a stepfurther, and this is maybe we
would never know how Nell BattleLewis would see herself today,
but if.
If people actually take thatopportunity to be critical and
to look at themselves, and thento try to right the wrongs
(51:33):
they've made or change the waythat they're doing things in the
future, looking at how we thenaccept that or don't accept that
and that, or critique theirmethods of getting to that
point.
I guess what I'm thinking abouttoo, in this is.
People who have supported Trumpand MAGA and everything in the
(51:56):
past and are now somehow openingtheir eyes in one way or
another, whether it's the iceraids or the way that tariffs
are affecting farmers or youknow, whatever the Epstein
thing, and actually protectingchildren
katy (52:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (52:14):
turning away from that support that they once had
there.
I don't know how, how IFI, Idon't know how I feel about
that, I guess is I do know how Ifeel about it, and I wonder if
I'm right and how I feel aboutit.
I think I'm probably not, I, Istill feel very rejecting.
Of those people like as like a,no, fuck you.
(52:35):
You should have known.
This is, it's absolutelyasinine.
There was plenty of evidencethat all of this was gonna
happen and was gonna be reallybad and you didn't fucking
listen.
So I don't give a shit that youcare now.
Like that's my gut reaction toall of that.
But is that, I don't know ifthat's the right reaction to
have, but I also dunno if Itrust.
(52:57):
Their turnaround, or if they'rejust being more like Lewis in
their ability to condemn certainkinds of violence and certain
kinds of things they don'tsupport, but they still wanna
uphold this underlyingsuperiority.
Obviously that's what they votedfor.
(53:17):
That's why they ignored all thesigns.
katy (53:19):
would add to that is I think the.
pe a lot of very vocal opponentsof MAGA and Trump are still
bought into all of this too.
Mandy (53:29):
Yeah.
katy (53:29):
just, I guess that's my takeaway is, is just how, so
like no one's off the hook and,and the, I don't think Right,
like self-righteousness ishelpful at all because odds are,
sorry, I'm not, I'm not eventalking to you specifically, but
Sure.
I get like it's, I just because.
I at the, it's just so unlikelythat any, especially white
(53:54):
people, regardless of class orrega, you know, like there's,
it's just the odds are that wehaven't fully clicked in yet to
what is required to dismantlewhite supremacy and to like
really fundamentally do that.
And I, and I, this isn't thesame kind of suspicion of.
People who are formallyeducated, that MAGA has that I,
(54:17):
I just think also like, justlike a graduate of Smith and
coming back, this moderncosmopolitan woman, like there's
nothing inherent in that.
That means you quote, get it,you know, or that you are
somehow like more enlightened.
So I just, I think like a.
Healthy humility and like justconstant self-reflection that
(54:39):
doesn't keep us from action, butthat that is informing our
actions and checking our actionsis really.
Useful.
So I guess that's how
Mandy (54:48):
Yeah.
katy (54:48):
about it more than like, whether I accept or reject them
or trust them or don't trustthem.
It's like, I don't, like, I, I,I'm trying to make sure I can
trust myself and that's
Mandy (55:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (55:01):
like, that's priority number one,
Mandy (55:02):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (55:04):
So
Mandy (55:05):
Alright,
katy (55:06):
I'm
Mandy (55:06):
I'll take it.
katy (55:07):
not wrong.
I'm just saying that's the I'mthinking about
Mandy (55:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's a very helpful way tothink about it.
I did wanna bring up reallyquickly.
katy (55:14):
Yes.
Mandy (55:15):
that I did.
Just a quick little search onwhether there was any
information, if Nell Battle hadany queer tendencies.
katy (55:22):
Oh,
Mandy (55:23):
no, there's no information on that whatsoever.
She actually was married once,very briefly for one year.
katy (55:33):
Okay.
I mean, being married is no,like,
Mandy (55:36):
No, no.
Yeah, no, it's not any sort ofproof.
katy (55:39):
but mm-hmm.
Mandy (55:39):
No.
The interesting thing though,about why they divorced because
after that she never remarried,although she was engaged
briefly.
One other time, is the accountsof why they divorced was mainly
because of conflictingexpectations.
In marriage and what she shouldhave been doing as a wife and
her independent nature and roleand activism.
katy (56:02):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (56:03):
her relationship apparently did seem to suffer
from the role that she wastaking.
So,
katy (56:10):
Yeah, it
Mandy (56:11):
interesting.
katy (56:11):
what, what an important case, this woman.
So I, as
Mandy (56:16):
Yeah.
katy (56:16):
it was to read about it, I'm glad we did.
So the
Mandy (56:18):
Yeah.
katy (56:18):
part of the book moves into a different era, and we're
going to be reading aboutexamples from 1942 to 1974, and
the, the title is so intriguing,partisan Betrayals a Bad Woman.
Weak white men and the end oftheir party.
So
Mandy (56:38):
Hmm.
katy (56:38):
wait.
Mandy (56:39):
Okay.
katy (56:39):
it's scratching all my, like reality TV itches for the
week.
Mandy (56:43):
Love it.
I
katy (56:44):
but
Mandy (56:45):
love it.
Okay.
katy (56:46):
Of course, as always, and please make sure you're
subscribed and if you like whatwe're doing to please rate it.
I mean I of course if you don'tlike it, I gotta.
Leave comments too, but why areyou listening?
If you don't like it, just don'tlisten.
But just, yeah, thanks toeveryone who is listening and
reading along with this book andwe're just excited to keep
moving through.
So
Mandy (57:04):
All right, we'll talk to you soon.
Bye.
katy (57:07):
Bye.
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