Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 5

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.

(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.

Mandy (00:14):
Hi,

katy (00:15):
Hi.

Mandy (00:17):
how are you?

katy (00:18):
I'm good.
I'm happy to see you

Mandy (00:19):
I'm happy to you.

katy (00:20):
for

Mandy (00:20):
know,

katy (00:21):
week in a row.

Mandy (00:23):
I know.
This is amazing.

katy (00:25):
I, I feel like maybe that's

Mandy (00:26):
I feel

katy (00:27):
like a, a low bar for people who want to have a
podcast to just recordregularly, but I am really proud
of us.

Mandy (00:34):
well, we've got a lot going on.
I mean, we've said it is superhard.
It's very hard.
Kids are going back to schoolnext week here in Nevada, so
that may or may not help.
I always feel like the summer isgonna be better, and then I'm
like, I don't know.
I don't think it is.
I,

katy (00:50):
Mm.
I don't think it is either.
I

Mandy (00:51):
I don't,

katy (00:52):
I mean, I love summer, but I, it feels like a less
structured, just moreunpredictable kind of time of
year and I, I feel

Mandy (01:02):
yeah.

katy (01:02):
a lot more guilt associated with Summer.
Like there's some sort of

Mandy (01:06):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:07):
I'm supposed to be providing my children and

Mandy (01:10):
Yeah.

katy (01:10):
to provide.

Mandy (01:11):
Yeah.
You're supposed to be morepresent, more involved in things
and

katy (01:16):
failing

Mandy (01:16):
another.
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:18):
all those, all those voices of, you know, what
capitalism and white supremacythat we should just learn to
totally ignore it.
Not that all of

Mandy (01:26):
Not that all those

katy (01:26):
my head are

Mandy (01:27):
voices in head

katy (01:28):
a lot of them are.
So I can

Mandy (01:29):
a lot.

katy (01:30):
take it down a

Mandy (01:31):
Take it down.

katy (01:32):
we Chapter

Mandy (01:33):
we're

katy (01:33):
of Elizabeth Gillespie, Mcgras mothers of Massive
Resistance.
And I will be

Mandy (01:39):
I,

katy (01:40):
that I read this literally right before, and Mandy was very
kind in giving me extra time toprepare.
But I'm so glad I did.
It was great.

Mandy (01:50):
well, you probably still will have retained more than I
do because I feel like.
I feel like it's not mycomprehension that's a problem.
It's definitely retention.
That's a problem.
'cause I listened to this on theaudio book version'cause I, as I
drove up to Utah earlier thisweek,'cause I'm visiting my
parents.
And then I read it yesterday

katy (02:11):
Okay.

Mandy (02:12):
and, and I didn't remember most of what I read.
I was like, oh, I listened tothis.
Huh.
I wonder what else my mind wasthinking of as it was playing in
the car.
'cause I don't remember this atall.

katy (02:24):
It's like none of the ways to retain information or helping
me anymore.
I was just thinking about howwhen I was in high

Mandy (02:31):
I,

katy (02:31):
where, I mean, we were in high school together, but I did
plays and now

Mandy (02:35):
mm-hmm.

katy (02:35):
I, I

Mandy (02:36):
I, I

katy (02:38):
there are things I

Mandy (02:38):
there

katy (02:39):
about

Mandy (02:40):
about

katy (02:40):
and

Mandy (02:40):
being a theater and sometimes

katy (02:42):
I get involved in community theater here?

Mandy (02:43):
theater.

katy (02:44):
know I cannot.
I, there's no way I would everbe able to remember anything.

Mandy (02:49):
Lines.
Yeah.
No

katy (02:51):
I read Bo the same.
Every

Mandy (02:55):
Every

katy (02:56):
time I put him to bed and it is not, there aren't even
that many lines of text.
It's called GrandfatherTwilight.
If anyone knows this book, it'sreally lovely and like a nice
goodnight book.
could not tell

Mandy (03:07):
would not tell you.
I know this, this,

katy (03:09):
repeat any of the lines and I've read it

Mandy (03:11):
and I read it.

katy (03:12):
at this

Mandy (03:12):
Yeah.
Well, I will get like the, youknow, the six digit text codes
to log to something and I'll belike, I can remember this.
I can go from my phone to mycomputer and remember these six
digits.
No,

katy (03:27):
no.

Mandy (03:27):
no, I cannot.

katy (03:29):
This is

Mandy (03:29):
It's, it's terrible.

katy (03:31):
are times where like, I was almost in tears last night.
I, my daughter had lost a brushand.
I thought, oh, it might actuallybe like, really under her bed.
And so I got under and dugaround and found

Mandy (03:44):
Around.

katy (03:44):
popped up and said to everybody like, ha ha, I found
the

Mandy (03:48):
I found

katy (03:48):
This is so great.

Mandy (03:50):
this is so great and it

katy (03:51):
15 seconds

Mandy (03:52):
15 seconds

katy (03:53):
not

Mandy (03:54):
that I could not

katy (03:55):
And I was almost in tears, like looking at my husband,
like, are you guys punking me?
Like, are you guys are

Mandy (04:00):
Yeah,

katy (04:00):
like, no.
And I, I spent the

Mandy (04:03):
I

katy (04:03):
minutes like

Mandy (04:04):
next five minutes

katy (04:05):
and thinking

Mandy (04:06):
and thinking I have lost my mind.

katy (04:09):
And it was in a laundry basket.
Why don't know

Mandy (04:13):
Well

katy (04:14):
I

Mandy (04:14):
see.
That would've been me and itwould've been like in my hand
while I was searching all overbefore it like, oh, it's right
here.
I've done that before.
I've walked around the houselooking for my phone, like with
my phone in my hand, and I'mlike, yeah.
Yeah.
Like where is it?

katy (04:33):
oh

Mandy (04:34):
it's great.

katy (04:34):
I, I

Mandy (04:35):
Aging is going well.

katy (04:37):
Like if this is where I we're at, at this stage of our
lives, it does not bode well fordecades in the future.
But, you know,

Mandy (04:43):
No.
No.

katy (04:45):
who knows?

Mandy (04:45):
So I hope someone's coming up with something, but
nobody seems to be coming upwith anything to fix the
problems that we're having

katy (04:53):
I

Mandy (04:53):
as a society.

katy (04:55):
all anything.
Yeah.

Mandy (04:56):
No.
Mm,

katy (04:57):
in some ways like the more I become like a goldfish, maybe
the happier I am as a persontoo.
Like it's just allows me to notremember why I was really upset
and mad about something 14seconds ago.
You know?

Mandy (05:09):
right.
Yeah.

katy (05:10):
It's like the

Mandy (05:10):
It might be true.

katy (05:11):
I'm living here.
The name of Dory Life.
Alright, well this chapter iscalled Partisan Betrayals.
A bad woman, weak white Men, andthe End of their Party, the Bad
Woman, I think refers to EleanorRoosevelt.

Mandy (05:24):
Yeah, I know.
I was fascinated.
No, not at all.
Although I did feel much betterreading this chapter than I felt
reading the last chapter.
'cause we talked about how mydaughter's name is Nell, and in
the last chapter, the Nell ofthat chapter was not someone we
really loved.
But, but Nell's, my daughter,Nell's full name is actually

(05:46):
Eleanor.

katy (05:46):
Okay.

Mandy (05:47):
And so, and Nell is a nickname.
So then I was reading thischapter and I was like, okay,
redeemed.
It was like,

katy (05:53):
We don't have to change her name to something else.
Oh gosh.

Mandy (05:57):
I feel better.
Although another Nelly was alsointroduced in this chapter too.
And I was like, what is withthis?
Like, I swear this is not a namethat was at all popular in any
way, but apparently

katy (06:10):
Oh.

Mandy (06:11):
this network of white women, like

katy (06:13):
I, I

Mandy (06:14):
it was the whole thing.
That, yeah.

katy (06:15):
these women

Mandy (06:16):
These women would've

katy (06:17):
born like in the early 19 hundreds or whatever.
It makes me

Mandy (06:20):
whatever It makes me think of like,

katy (06:22):
Nelly from Little House in the Prairie.
Wasn't that her name?

Mandy (06:25):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.

katy (06:27):
girl.
I don't know how else to

Mandy (06:28):
Yeah.

katy (06:29):
her, but yeah, maybe there

Mandy (06:31):
Yeah.
Maybe there was of

katy (06:33):
floating around.
Like it sort of like Katie,

Mandy (06:35):
sort of like, I feel like

katy (06:36):
growing

Mandy (06:37):
when we were growing up

katy (06:38):
white Catholic girl I ever met was named Katie, and now I
never

Mandy (06:41):
Yeah.

katy (06:42):
being, maybe there just aren't white Catholic girls
being born anymore.
That I don't.

Mandy (06:46):
One can,

katy (06:47):
Fingers crossed.
Yeah.

Mandy (06:49):
yeah,

katy (06:49):
fair enough.
Yeah.
I'm

Mandy (06:52):
it'll come back around.
It's all cycles.

katy (06:54):
I'm

Mandy (06:54):
It is all in a cycle.

katy (06:56):
a charming old fashioned name.
But anyway so the chapter opensup.
It's a, a nice segue chapter, Ithink from the wound we were
learning about in the previouschapters and then taking them
into World War II wartime and

Mandy (07:11):
Mm-hmm.

katy (07:12):
from the Democrats to the Dixiecrats to the Republican

Mandy (07:17):
Republican party

katy (07:18):
and why that flipped.
And just the way that whitewomen were instrumental in that,
in, in a way that

Mandy (07:24):
in a way that was basically

katy (07:26):
women committed to white supremacy being so annoyed with
the white men in their

Mandy (07:31):
in their,

katy (07:31):
Ugh, you can't do anything.
We're gonna have to

Mandy (07:34):
yeah.

katy (07:34):
And like

Mandy (07:35):
Yep.

katy (07:35):
them away from these forces that were leading to more

Mandy (07:41):
More progressive.

katy (07:44):
So let's start with with Eleanor Roosevelt and, and FDR.
I mean,

Mandy (07:49):
Yeah.

katy (07:50):
honestly like a whole other rabbit hole.
We could

Mandy (07:53):
About the

katy (07:53):
thinking

Mandy (07:54):
down.

katy (07:54):
only president we've had who served three terms and just
what a unique position he was induring World War ii.
And just a, a lot of reallyfascinating ins and outs to his
presidency, I think.
And his relationship withEleanor Roosevelt and her role
as

Mandy (08:10):
Yeah,

katy (08:11):
was really, I think like the first, first lady who, who
was super involved.
I don't know that

Mandy (08:19):
I know that,

katy (08:19):
right.
So I'm gonna say it.

Mandy (08:21):
right.
I mean, I don't rememberlearning about many other first
ladies,

katy (08:26):
nothing.

Mandy (08:27):
but yeah, just, just was clearly not taught.
That's for sure.

katy (08:32):
know.

Mandy (08:33):
but neither was like this history of Eleanor Roosevelt.
I didn't know she was such acontroversial figure or so
influential

katy (08:42):
Yeah,

Mandy (08:43):
Yeah,

katy (08:43):
rod at

Mandy (08:44):
a lightning rod at one point.
I think

katy (08:46):
even the word that's used.
But I, I think like, just to

Mandy (08:49):
they, I think

katy (08:49):
our, I

Mandy (08:50):
refresher I

katy (08:51):
this so much further than we are going to get into, but
just thinking about World War IIthis really pivotal catalyst in

Mandy (08:59):
catalyst in so many ways,

katy (09:01):
when

Mandy (09:01):
especially.

katy (09:02):
desegregation efforts, because you had men and women,
black men and women who wereserving in the military

Mandy (09:10):
Military.
Mm-hmm.

katy (09:12):
V campaign, which was victory against the Nazis and
against fascists, but alsovictory at home against fascism
at home, basically like pointingout that these were not actually
so different.
It made me wonder,

Mandy (09:26):
Wonder

katy (09:27):
to be honest,

Mandy (09:28):
to be honest, like how it was

katy (09:31):
patriotic

Mandy (09:32):
patriot,

katy (09:32):
against the Nazis whipped up.
Because

Mandy (09:35):
because

katy (09:36):
is

Mandy (09:36):
there really is so much

katy (09:38):
and

Mandy (09:38):
common and so much mm-hmm.

katy (09:41):
like,

Mandy (09:41):
yeah, I mean, we discussed that all in our
eugenics season that we did too,where we talked about how much
of like the Nazis and Hitler'scampaigns actually drew upon,
like the eugenics movements thatwere happening in the United
States.
So yeah, it is kind of baffling

katy (09:59):
And

Mandy (09:59):
there was

katy (10:00):
like

Mandy (10:01):
what.

katy (10:01):
we were

Mandy (10:01):
Remember we were learning

katy (10:02):
Charles Lindberg, this famous pilot, and he was very
openly pro-Nazi

Mandy (10:08):
Nazi, and there were absolutely

katy (10:11):
leaders who not anti-Nazi.
But it is just interesting to mehow that that patriotism like
the anti-Nazi patriotism.
got translated to pro-US.
It's like, oh, I don't think a

Mandy (10:27):
don't think a lot of these white women.

katy (10:29):
about what that would then mean.
You know,

Mandy (10:31):
Mm-hmm.

katy (10:32):
like the questioning

Mandy (10:33):
these,

katy (10:33):
segregation.

Mandy (10:34):
women were doing it.

katy (10:35):
did.

Mandy (10:36):
white women were doing the math.
They knew what was happening.
They were like, this is not okaywith us and we've gotta figure
out a way to combat this.
But it is also to me interestingthen to see how, again, the
stories of history get told andall of that.
Part of it gets erased.
Like there was clearly a lot ofopposition to the US getting

(10:59):
into the, the wars, and I thinkthat gets lost once we move past
it.
Once the victory happened, itwas like, oh yeah, no, everybody
was always on board.
Everybody always thought theNazis were bad and they wanted
to, you know, save the Jews.
It's like that was absolutelynot what a huge portion of the

(11:21):
population felt at that point intime.

katy (11:23):
of antisemitism in the

Mandy (11:24):
Tons of antisemitism

katy (11:25):
and

Mandy (11:26):
Mm-hmm.

katy (11:26):
lots of pro fascism in the United States, that clearly has
not gone away.
So yes, I agree.
I think that is the danger ofthe way that history often gets
learned or taught is like verysimplistic, good guy, bad guy.
We were all for this.
That that doesn't make sensebecause if that was the case of
what you know, it just, if youthink about it for two seconds,

(11:47):
you will, the complexity comesflooding in.
But I think that's the hope isthat nobody thinks about it for
more than two seconds.
So this is really where themassive.
Support for segregationtransformed into massive
resistance.
That's a quote from page one 10,where they, their job, the job
of these white women was reallyto like, get white people to

(12:09):
keep caring about maintainingwhite supremacy and just really
like keeping it tight, you know?
And, and then because of WorldWar II and all these big changes
in the federal government andFDRs, like a bunch of things
happening, they were put ondefense instead of offense.
At least that's how I took it,to

Mandy (12:25):
Yeah,

katy (12:26):
do whatever they could to, to put a stop to the, the
dismantling of white supremacy.

Mandy (12:32):
what's

katy (12:33):
sad is that the

Mandy (12:33):
sad is that

katy (12:34):
yes,

Mandy (12:35):
like

katy (12:35):
were important and

Mandy (12:36):
are important and powerful and honestly

katy (12:37):
chapter like, how did anything ever happen

Mandy (12:40):
happen.
Mm-hmm.

katy (12:41):
But it's also

Mandy (12:42):
It's

katy (12:43):
it.

Mandy (12:43):
not like.

katy (12:44):
It was wildly successful

Mandy (12:46):
successful,

katy (12:47):
was really happening

Mandy (12:48):
really happening.
Yeah.

katy (12:49):
and in all sorts of structural ways.
It's like, oh my God, it wasn'teven, it just does not

Mandy (12:53):
It just does not take much progress.

katy (12:55):
the fuck out.
Let's put it that

Mandy (12:57):
Mm-hmm.

katy (12:58):
So,

Mandy (12:59):
Yes.
Which also continues alongtoday,

katy (13:02):
Hello.
So

Mandy (13:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.

katy (13:05):
into the the, the ways that

Mandy (13:07):
way that,

katy (13:08):
their freak out

Mandy (13:09):
mm-hmm.

katy (13:10):
one way that showed up was them really hating, super
publicly hating EleanorRoosevelt.

Mandy (13:16):
Yeah, so she says that.
And this is the bottom of pageone 10.
Southern white womenreconfigured white supremacist
politics during this time inthree ways.
And the first one was theyunderstood Eleanor Roosevelt as
embodying the political betrayalof the Democratic Party.
For some women, the fractures intheir partisan loyalty became
salient in their wartimecritiques of the first lady she

(13:38):
served as a gendered threat toracial segregation and a
racialized threat to whitesouthern womanhood.
So she basically was just theopposite of everything that
white southern women had everthought of themselves to be, had
taught their children to be andwhat they thought was the
correct way to live.

(13:59):
And so they just took everythingthat she did and basically just
raked her over the coals in newsarticles and like her political
travels.
And there was this one storywhere she had gone to Livingston
College, which was a blackcollege and university.
And she spent the day with themthere at that.

(14:22):
And then that evening she wentand then addressed like, it
seems like a more whiteaudience, the General Convention
of Christian Education.
American Methodist, EpiscopalZion Church, and then the DAR,
the UDC, the PTA.
But then at night she went backand dined with black women and
men and that just set peoplecompletely off.

(14:47):
They basically said, you know,whatever northerners want to do
above the Mason Dixon line, theycan do, but you can't bring that
down to the south.
And so it got to, it was at thepoint where after she did that,
the women in that area refusedto even provide overnight
accommodations for her, and shehad to travel back up north

(15:10):
because no one would let herstay with them.

katy (15:12):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (15:13):
Which just seems just wild.
I mean, I guess there weren'thotels,

katy (15:18):
Well, I know the, yeah, right.

Mandy (15:20):
like you're just staying with people in their houses.
I suppose that is the way ithappened.

katy (15:24):
made me

Mandy (15:25):
It made me think,

katy (15:26):
the, oh, these are the

Mandy (15:27):
oh, these are the invert,

katy (15:28):
kind of petty detective.
Like they're, they're

Mandy (15:31):
they're, they're

katy (15:32):
ness as a tool for

Mandy (15:33):
as.

katy (15:34):
Like they, it says that they thought she was worth
monitoring because she was doingall these things that made them
so mad.
And so just again, thinkingabout like pre-social media, the
way that these women were ableto keep tabs on her and get
pissed about the smallest thingsand then turn those into big
things like, they were, they

Mandy (15:53):
They were, they were,

katy (15:54):
Boy Scouts trying to integrate a 4th of July parade.
Like again, nothing is smallenough for them not to be awful
about it.
You know, like just all of thethings Yeah.
There were other stories tooabout how they were

Mandy (16:10):
were

katy (16:10):
that

Mandy (16:11):
frustrated

katy (16:11):
attended

Mandy (16:12):
attended.

katy (16:13):
hosted a dance where

Mandy (16:15):
Mm-hmm.

katy (16:16):
interracial dancing and people were really mad about
that.
And it was

Mandy (16:20):
And it was all kind of this idea like telling

katy (16:22):
way, all

Mandy (16:24):
we'll all be integrated and

katy (16:26):
she has gone

Mandy (16:27):
had gone way too far away

katy (16:29):
to the

Mandy (16:29):
letters to the editor about this.
They're writing articles aboutthis.

katy (16:32):
are

Mandy (16:32):
They also are then suggesting like probably they
probably want to have sex.

katy (16:39):
men.
And

Mandy (16:40):
Oh yeah.
Like the personal place thatthey took these attacks against
her and her family was just,Ima, I mean, they questioned
like her relationship with FDRand like their marriage might
must not have been good, like,because, and then she must have
wanted to have sex with blackmen, and then they must have
wanted, like, her sons to marryblack women.

(17:02):
I mean, it's just the, thenastiness that it turned into at
that point in time was justshocking.
But not shocking in a way.
I mean,

katy (17:12):
isn't Eleanor Roosevelt also now people look back and
they're like, oh, she's probablylesbian.
So I'm like,

Mandy (17:16):
yeah,

katy (17:17):
they

Mandy (17:17):
like they were wrong.
Like they were very wrong

katy (17:20):
had

Mandy (17:20):
if only they had known, you know?

katy (17:22):
I think that it is like this, it just keeps boiling down
to white women protecting whitesupremacy in the most

Mandy (17:31):
Mm-hmm.

katy (17:31):
ways, like

Mandy (17:33):
Yeah.

katy (17:33):
relationships, friendships, eating.
having sex with

Mandy (17:37):
Having sex.

katy (17:38):
just

Mandy (17:38):
Like she's, she's monitoring all of those domestic
and

katy (17:42):
so

Mandy (17:43):
so carefully and just really

katy (17:46):
so,

Mandy (17:47):
so,

katy (17:48):
angry

Mandy (17:48):
angry about it.

katy (17:50):
There was one

Mandy (17:51):
was one part here where Elizabeth

katy (17:53):
is

Mandy (17:54):
talking

katy (17:54):
specifically about

Mandy (17:55):
specifically about how this mother thing

katy (17:57):
for

Mandy (17:57):
and that for these,

katy (17:59):
good

Mandy (17:59):
for good white others,

katy (18:01):
their job was

Mandy (18:02):
that their job was to

katy (18:03):
who

Mandy (18:03):
children to maintain appropriate racial dis

katy (18:05):
taught a

Mandy (18:06):
show the schools of curriculum in line with white
supremacy politics told storiesare educated the larger public
on the natural myth of racialsegregation.

katy (18:12):
it cannot be

Mandy (18:13):
And it cannot be defined

katy (18:14):
It

Mandy (18:15):
by the, it came to be, excuse me, defined by the same
complicated rules, except thatwhite mothers had to guarantee
that their children weren't in,adhere to the land who were
segregation.

katy (18:24):
And if they did

Mandy (18:25):
And if they did not follow segregated

katy (18:27):
threatening

Mandy (18:27):
ation, they're threatening without raising of
white supremacy.
So this how, again, like allthese things that maybe seen.

katy (18:33):
smaller,

Mandy (18:34):
Smaller, even insignificant all of a sudden.
Mm-hmm.

katy (18:37):
but it's,

Mandy (18:38):
But it's, it's that,

katy (18:40):
they're

Mandy (18:40):
that they're monitoring

katy (18:41):
really

Mandy (18:42):
all

katy (18:42):
things with and just using

Mandy (18:44):
just using all their power to

katy (18:45):
call her

Mandy (18:46):
call her out.

katy (18:47):
that I

Mandy (18:47):
The part that I got was, and some of

katy (18:50):
the,

Mandy (18:51):
the,

katy (18:51):
of the times

Mandy (18:52):
all of the times that they used the

katy (18:54):
oh, my

Mandy (18:55):
like, oh, my black friend, oh my gosh.

katy (18:57):
like

Mandy (18:58):
Yeah.

katy (18:58):
like, no, none of the black people I know like are
saying anything,

Mandy (19:03):
saying anything.
So

katy (19:04):
with

Mandy (19:04):
they must be fine with it.

katy (19:06):
ways that they, these white women that we've been
learning about

Mandy (19:09):
That we've been learning about black,

katy (19:10):
to use, like

Mandy (19:12):
like, like process

katy (19:14):
any black people in their lives as justification for white
supremacy was especially gross.
I don't know

Mandy (19:19):
gross.
Yeah.

katy (19:20):
or stories that

Mandy (19:22):
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
All of those same things forsure.
She says like, kind of alludingto that.
Part about them talking abouttheir black friends and all the
black people.
They, I mean, I say friends inquotes.
That's like the people thatworked for them and their, A lot
of

katy (19:37):
black

Mandy (19:37):
Yeah.

katy (19:38):
I, I'm sure right?

Mandy (19:40):
Yeah.
No.

katy (19:41):
Uhhuh.

Mandy (19:42):
but she says that like these, this southern whites were
nowhere near ready to admit thatblack southerners were
disaffected with the South'sracial hierarchy.
And so they turned their angertowards the Democratic party and
towards Eleanor Roosevelt And

katy (19:58):
her for lynching.

Mandy (19:59):
blamed her.

katy (20:00):
mind.
Like

Mandy (20:01):
Yeah.

katy (20:01):
massive race riots that were horrifying, terrifying acts
of racial

Mandy (20:05):
Acts of racial

katy (20:06):
and lynching on the rise.

Mandy (20:08):
on the ride

katy (20:08):
white women came out and

Mandy (20:10):
came out and

katy (20:12):
blamed Eleanor Roosevelt said, it's her

Mandy (20:14):
Yeah.

katy (20:15):
she's drumming people up.
She's making people

Mandy (20:18):
People.

katy (20:19):
like, it's

Mandy (20:20):
Yeah,

katy (20:20):
don't even

Mandy (20:21):
they don't wanna,

katy (20:22):
about

Mandy (20:22):
yep.
Yeah.
Mary Dawson Kane, who's one ofthe women we learned about
earlier, published an openletter to Eleanor Roosevelt,
blaming her for three brutallynchings of two black teenage
boys and a Laurel, Mississippifarmer.
They called her the ringleaderof racial agitation, basically

(20:43):
saying like, if you wouldn't goand intermingle and spend time
with these people, they would becontent in their place, is
really how they saw it.
They're like, you're making themdiscontented,

katy (20:54):
right.

Mandy (20:55):
is making them then fight for rights, which then we must
answer with lynchings and VA andviolence.
So this is your fault forbasically agreeing that they
could rise above anything

katy (21:10):
Or even encouraging

Mandy (21:11):
except for where we put them.

katy (21:13):
bagger, s scally, wag, put these ideas into their head.
You, Northern

Mandy (21:16):
Mm-hmm.

katy (21:17):
like they

Mandy (21:18):
Yep.

katy (21:18):
wanted this or

Mandy (21:19):
Wanted

katy (21:19):
and like, I don't wanna

Mandy (21:20):
and like, I don't wanna pretend that

katy (21:21):
be Candace Owens in the

Mandy (21:24):
Owens in the 1940s.
Right.

katy (21:26):
Like I'm sure there were no, again, like no group is
monolithic, but you cannot tell

Mandy (21:31):
you cannot

katy (21:31):
living under the

Mandy (21:33):
under the threat of,

katy (21:35):
violence have their

Mandy (21:37):
have their employer

katy (21:38):
and say, do you want this?
Like,

Mandy (21:40):
say like

katy (21:40):
do you think

Mandy (21:41):
what kind.

katy (21:41):
Like they're not going

Mandy (21:42):
Mm-hmm.

katy (21:43):
your fa, are you kidding me?
Like, it's just so obvious why

Mandy (21:46):
Why

katy (21:47):
be

Mandy (21:47):
people would be silent or would be less,

katy (21:50):
in their agreement or whatever, you

Mandy (21:53):
whatever.
Mm-hmm.

katy (21:54):
even in themselves, like, be afraid of those changes
because they're

Mandy (21:57):
They're,

katy (21:58):
Like, all of those

Mandy (21:59):
all of those things are,

katy (22:00):
And,

Mandy (22:01):
yeah.

katy (22:01):
of those things endorse white supremacy as a system at
all.

Mandy (22:05):
Yep.
Yep.

katy (22:06):
the

Mandy (22:06):
Yeah.

katy (22:07):
thought was especially intriguing with this, which the
woman writing this book,Elizabeth Gillespie Mc Gray,
mentioned several times,

Mandy (22:15):
Several times is that

katy (22:16):
up of Eleanor Roosevelt as the, the like devil

Mandy (22:20):
devil incarnate?
Mm-hmm.

katy (22:22):
traditions.
not only

Mandy (22:25):
only

katy (22:25):
kind of

Mandy (22:26):
that kind of,

katy (22:27):
Blame to put on her, but doing that actually

Mandy (22:30):
that actually,

katy (22:31):
these black

Mandy (22:32):
yes.
Yes.

katy (22:32):
and like took agency away and, and

Mandy (22:36):
And, and turn black people into objects

katy (22:39):
they are

Mandy (22:39):
because they're still

katy (22:41):
white people

Mandy (22:41):
white people are

katy (22:43):
who

Mandy (22:43):
the only people who are acting.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (22:45):
are the subjects who just kind of sit there while we
battle it out.
And so the

Mandy (22:51):
Yeah.

katy (22:51):
all this black leadership, all this work all of this
activism, like it's, it's just acomplete erasure.
I don't know how else to

Mandy (22:58):
Yeah.
And then away as she says this,like exactly what you're saying.
On one 17, which I hadunderlined and starred, it said,
in blaming Eleanor, white,Southern women diminished the
validity of black protest, tookaway black initiated violence as
a political strategy andelevated the role white women
played in a segregated nation.
So again, just this focus, evenin, for someone who was being

(23:25):
more progressive, it again takesthe focus and puts it back on
white people and white womenspecifically in this.
And yeah, I, I, it was anotherone where I was just like, oh,
yet another angle that I hadnever considered embarrassingly

katy (23:40):
And it is

Mandy (23:41):
just not

katy (23:42):
oh, this is like an, like a double chocolate ice cream
cone that's dipped in chocolate

Mandy (23:47):
Chocolate.
Mm-hmm.

katy (23:48):
not

Mandy (23:48):
Mm-hmm.
Not only are they.

katy (23:50):
racism, but in the way that they're choosing to blame
and even

Mandy (23:55):
People and even who they set up as their going itself.
Also, it's like

katy (23:59):
many

Mandy (24:00):
just too many levels of racism.

katy (24:01):
to bleed.
You know?
I

Mandy (24:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.

katy (24:04):
was in my scrolling on YouTube when I'm VEing out at
night just staring off intospace, I had just watched this
video, that was superinteresting

Mandy (24:14):
interesting about our

katy (24:16):
and the way that

Mandy (24:17):
and the way that open,

katy (24:18):
like open

Mandy (24:19):
like open concept.

katy (24:21):
Are connected to white supremacy.
And I was like, I'm listening.

Mandy (24:26):
Yeah.

katy (24:27):
it

Mandy (24:27):
What, tell me

katy (24:28):
to

Mandy (24:28):
It was connected to racism

katy (24:29):
and so it

Mandy (24:30):
and so it all connects at once.
Page one 50

katy (24:34):
The author is talking

Mandy (24:35):
author talking about how it wasn't the patient developer
Roosevelt, but also they

katy (24:38):
These white women got interested in labor policies

Mandy (24:41):
mm-hmm.

katy (24:42):
were really opposed to labor

Mandy (24:45):
labor rights and.

katy (24:47):
and, you know, started to

Mandy (24:48):
You know, started to label

katy (24:49):
agitators or whatever.
They were

Mandy (24:51):
whatever.
Mm-hmm.

katy (24:52):
labor unrest or work to protect workers.
And they,

Mandy (24:56):
And they

katy (24:57):
about

Mandy (24:57):
it talks about how some white women complain that
domestic service

katy (25:01):
the promise of better jobs to

Mandy (25:02):
better.

katy (25:03):
and west.
And this

Mandy (25:05):
And this then

katy (25:05):
connected to this

Mandy (25:06):
connected with the video watch, which you talks about how
in the early 19 hundreds, floorplans were middle class, one

katy (25:13):
always had

Mandy (25:14):
always had surface orders,

katy (25:15):
the

Mandy (25:16):
and all the, were very distinct

katy (25:18):
were

Mandy (25:18):
were

katy (25:19):
the workspaces

Mandy (25:20):
work faces were the,

katy (25:21):
they

Mandy (25:22):
and they

katy (25:22):
hazards

Mandy (25:23):
were fire hazards,

katy (25:23):
and

Mandy (25:24):
smelling, whatever.
Mm-hmm.

katy (25:26):
contained in their own space, maybe even in the
basement, but like off in theirown space.

Mandy (25:31):
Mm-hmm.

katy (25:32):
there were domestic servants quarters, but as in
this era, like

Mandy (25:37):
Era.

katy (25:38):
like 1940s and the even before that, like the great
migration north, that as thereare more

Mandy (25:44):
There are more opportunities, members

katy (25:47):
for

Mandy (25:47):
of communities, for people

katy (25:48):
efforts.

Mandy (25:49):
efforts and

katy (25:50):
are

Mandy (25:51):
there are big

katy (25:52):
unions and there is

Mandy (25:54):
and

katy (25:54):
opportunity, that those

Mandy (25:56):
that those,

katy (25:57):
all women of color.
And so that.

Mandy (25:59):
and so that

katy (26:01):
like servant base kind of

Mandy (26:02):
based

katy (26:04):
And the

Mandy (26:04):
and, and the response

katy (26:06):
to just

Mandy (26:06):
was

katy (26:07):
okay,

Mandy (26:07):
like, okay, white woman, I guess it's your job now.

katy (26:10):
things.
And so

Mandy (26:12):
And so

katy (26:12):
wanted to still be connected to their family

Mandy (26:15):
their,

katy (26:15):
aren't the servant.
And hence the open floor planwas now to have like, because
the,

Mandy (26:21):
because

katy (26:21):
wife and mother no longer

Mandy (26:24):
longer is exploiting the labor of women of color in her
household.

katy (26:28):
to be

Mandy (26:29):
He wants

katy (26:29):
of the family.

Mandy (26:30):
of family

katy (26:31):
to like 1950s and sixties open floor plan concepts, which
like continue today to be likethe thing.
And there's other parts of it

Mandy (26:39):
yeah.

katy (26:40):
The ways that people socialized and a

Mandy (26:43):
And

katy (26:43):
living

Mandy (26:43):
that formal living room

katy (26:44):
sense.
So

Mandy (26:45):
longer sense.

katy (26:46):
of

Mandy (26:46):
You know, a lot of factors, but one of the factors

katy (26:49):
to this exact issue.
And it's basically

Mandy (26:53):
basically like

katy (26:54):
A physical

Mandy (26:55):
physical manifestation of

katy (26:58):
especially

Mandy (26:58):
especially for

katy (26:59):
upper class women to

Mandy (27:00):
women.

katy (27:01):
like white middle class women in

Mandy (27:03):
Women,

katy (27:03):
they don't have the money for servants

Mandy (27:07):
Yeah.

katy (27:07):
do all this labor that's expected of them, but still be
part of the family.
Isn't that fascinating

Mandy (27:12):
Hmm.
That is fascinating.

katy (27:13):
disturbing,

Mandy (27:14):
so many of these things that like, I think I definitely
haven't thought of, so that Iknow that probably a lot of
people don't think about either.
And then when you connect thedots, you just see how deeply
entrenched it all it is.
Like when people don'tunderstand what systemic racism
is, they think racism's overbecause you know, we no longer.

(27:37):
We'll use the n word in public,you know, like that's we're we
had a black president.
We, yeah.
Like it's over.
Like, my, my child has a blackfriend.
There's no such thing as racismanymore.
You know, it's like, no, thesethings are so systemically
ingrained in every single partof our society.
I mean, this, this chapter didnothing to help my hatred of

(27:59):
state's rights as an argumentfor things.
'cause I was like, see, I wasright.
I've always been right.
Like the state's rights bullshitand this like distrust of the
federal government and this notwanting, she talks on page one
17 too, about this wedge thatfederal aid.
Posed to states they did notwant to accept federal aid

(28:24):
because they saw, like, it comeswith strings.
Like, if we accept this aid,then they're going to be able to
tell us how to use it.
And so we're not gonna do itbecause we can see what's coming
down the road from this.
And this is still continued.
It's like why I could, I can'tunderstand, like the states that

(28:45):
don't accept the Medicaidexpansions, you know, like how,
how would you not take money forhealthcare to decrease the costs
for people in your state?
It's all connected back to this.
It's because they don't want thestrings that are attached to it
because they wanna continuedoing the, you know, racist,

(29:07):
exploitative bullshit kind ofthings.
And they can't do that when thefederal, federal government gets
involved.

katy (29:14):
right.

Mandy (29:14):
And so they would rather.
Decline any sort of assistanceso that they continue doing
things their way than to acceptthe federal aid and have to take
what comes along with it, whichis

katy (29:26):
Before we,

Mandy (29:27):
before we I.

katy (29:28):
into the federal aid side of things as the other thing
that these women really caredabout at this time and still
continue to care about.
There were so many things that Iwas like, oh, today, today,
today, today.
Circling throughout.
I just wanted to note withEleanor Roosevelt and thinking
about first ladies who becomelightning rods for defenders of
white supremacy, and I wouldlove us to do another kind of

(29:51):
set of episodes or mini episodesor whatever, about Michelle
Obama became that for the, andjust what she had to endure or
the, the vitriol aimed at her.
And

Mandy (30:03):
And

katy (30:04):
been fascinated, and again, I need to dive into just
the ways that

Mandy (30:08):
that.

katy (30:08):
same people who lost their goddamn minds, like every day.
It's about something related toMichelle Obama.
Have nothing to say aboutMelania Trump.
Like I, you know, just how likewhat, what that hatred and what
that criticism was stemmingfrom.

Mandy (30:24):
Well, and

katy (30:26):
it, I just, I'm so curious.

Mandy (30:27):
I'm so curious, like their, their anti

katy (30:30):
is not applied

Mandy (30:31):
not slide.

katy (30:32):
herself is an immigrant.
Like, I just have so

Mandy (30:34):
Like, I just have so many questions for like, the ways
that

katy (30:38):
there's pictures of her posing nude on a bare skinned
rug, and it's like

Mandy (30:41):
and mm-hmm.

katy (30:43):
that

Mandy (30:43):
That

katy (30:44):
has escaped any of the standards or any of the things
that they care about and

Mandy (30:49):
care about and advocate for and,

katy (30:50):
just unleashed on Michelle Obama in this, like, what had to
have been horrific, totally

Mandy (30:56):
oh,

katy (30:57):
way.
Like I don't, I, the fact thatshe's like functioning

Mandy (31:01):
functioning.

katy (31:02):
and love and humor and like all of that is just

Mandy (31:04):
All of that.

katy (31:05):
to me.

Mandy (31:05):
Yeah.

katy (31:06):
yeah.
I think that the, we need afirst ladies branch of this
podcast that just dives

Mandy (31:11):
Yeah.
Well, and the connection also tothe Maha movement, the Make
America healthy and, and how theutter shit show tantrum that
Republicans threw when MichelleObama tried to make school
lunches healthier and callingher a communist, and like saying
that she was taking away likeparental rights by trying to

(31:33):
make kids eat healthier.
And now they're acting likethey're some saviors of health
and like

katy (31:40):
Unbelievable.

Mandy (31:41):
Yeah.
The hypocrisy.
The hypocrisy.

katy (31:44):
Again, I don't, I don't know how people who are involved
in those campaigns, like howthey, they don't just explode
from sheer frustration with thathypocrisy.
I don't get it.
But

Mandy (31:56):
Yeah.

katy (31:56):
into the, the federal aid and federal regulations,
especially around labor,

Mandy (32:02):
Yeah,

katy (32:03):
exclusively.

Mandy (32:04):
It,

katy (32:04):
does just,

Mandy (32:05):
it does it

katy (32:05):
labor,

Mandy (32:06):
labor.

katy (32:07):
connected

Mandy (32:08):
so much connect with all of this, like when people are

katy (32:10):
from

Mandy (32:10):
away from the work,

katy (32:12):
a

Mandy (32:12):
that's when a lot of women,

katy (32:13):
white women

Mandy (32:14):
white women here and

katy (32:16):
workforce in

Mandy (32:17):
work,

katy (32:17):
that they had not been before.
And that is

Mandy (32:20):
and that is one of those

katy (32:22):
pads for, you know, additional waves of feminism was
having.
You know, different

Mandy (32:27):
different

katy (32:28):
opportunities

Mandy (32:29):
Mm-hmm.

katy (32:30):
was needed with men away at war.
But then when you

Mandy (32:33):
But then when you have those members,

katy (32:35):
and unions are

Mandy (32:36):
union

katy (32:36):
too, because there some unions were advocating for
gender and racial equality, buta lot of other

Mandy (32:42):
a

katy (32:42):
were actually mouthpieces for white supremacy and for
sexism to say, we're gonnaprotect jobs for white men
returning.

Mandy (32:49):
mm-hmm.

katy (32:49):
we don't want mixing in the workplace because that will
lead to, again,

Mandy (32:53):
Again.

katy (32:54):
clutcher pearls, watch out.
You like that being just thecore fear, God forbid

Mandy (33:00):
God forbid.

katy (33:00):
interracial

Mandy (33:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

katy (33:03):
there's just a

Mandy (33:03):
Yeah.
And the war, the, yeah.
And the whole wartime effortsand the need for labor at that
time, which then gave the baseof people who were laboring some
power to unionize and to makedemands, which then was met by
all of this hysterics fromSoutherners who were just like,

(33:24):
how dare you demand 5 cents morean hour when our white sons are
off fighting this war?
They saw it as like antipatriotic

katy (33:34):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (33:35):
support labor in any sort of way.
And FDR, it seems from what theywas in this chapter, was more of
support of laborers,

katy (33:45):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (33:46):
just gave them another reason to be angry at him.
So they talk about like somespecific strikes in the coal
industry,

katy (33:56):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (33:57):
and about the war, like a bill that came out after that
called the Smith Connolly WarLabor Disputes Bill, which
basically granted the presidentthe power to like seize any sort
of industrial plant in wartimeand to outlaw strikes in those
industries.

(34:18):
And also to ban politicalcontributions by labor unions,
which that part Yeah.
Maybe not such a bad idea givenYeah.
You

katy (34:26):
Like money and

Mandy (34:27):
know,

katy (34:27):
is a whole other

Mandy (34:28):
Uhhuh.

katy (34:28):
too.

Mandy (34:29):
Yeah.
And Roosevelt actually, that wasa bill that he vetoed because it
took power away from workers andthen Congress overrode his veto
pretty immediately after that.
So this is just setting up moreof that.
Discontent that southern depeople who had always consider

(34:50):
themselves southern Democratshad with FDR, with the new deal,
with like this new kind ofchange in the Democratic party.
And one more thing that theywere just pissed off about
because they saw it as an attackon their way of life, but also
on their white husbands andwhite sons who are out fighting
and not being supportive ofthem.

(35:11):
And then fear for what rolesthey would have when they came
back from the war too.
Well

katy (35:15):
and it's laying the groundwork

Mandy (35:16):
the ground.

katy (35:16):
the Cold War because it's also very anti-communist, you
know?
And,

Mandy (35:20):
Mm-hmm.

katy (35:20):
connecting communist support to civil rights support,
to

Mandy (35:24):
Support

katy (35:25):
like connecting all these dots and then being

Mandy (35:28):
and being against all of them.
And it was,

katy (35:31):
I wrote in the margins that this is just such circular
logic because there was thisidea that this is gosh, I can't
think of her first name.
Ogden is her last name that

Mandy (35:41):
oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.

katy (35:42):
She has this weekly column called

Mandy (35:46):
Called my dear.
Oh my gosh,

katy (35:48):
I thought

Mandy (35:49):
yes.

katy (35:49):
weird.
And

Mandy (35:50):
Weird.
And she

katy (35:51):
she, to remedy the

Mandy (35:53):
the remedy

katy (35:53):
of soldiers, she sent pictures of black laborers
picking cotton and whitechildren

Mandy (35:58):
and white

katy (35:58):
the

Mandy (35:59):
on the

katy (35:59):
reminders of a system of white over black.
And basically promising the boysthat when they come home,
everything's gonna be exactlythe same, and don't worry, like
we're holding the fort down.

Mandy (36:09):
Yes.

katy (36:09):
I thought this idea that she was acting as a composite
mother and presenting herself

Mandy (36:14):
Mm-hmm.

katy (36:15):
of all these white boys who were away from the

Mandy (36:17):
Mm-hmm.

katy (36:18):
and, you know, she would write about black soldiers, but
in super disparaging ways,

Mandy (36:22):
Yes.
That part was so gross

katy (36:25):
they wouldn't, didn't

Mandy (36:27):
wouldn't.

katy (36:27):
a test or had to come home for some reason.
Like what?
A, just,

Mandy (36:30):
Mm-hmm.

katy (36:30):
sucks.
Okay.
So,

Mandy (36:32):
Yeah,

katy (36:32):
I

Mandy (36:32):
she was terrible.

katy (36:33):
Of snarky line.
I would love to ask ElizabethDeloy, meck Ray, just how you
write about things a, like howdo you keep.
snarkiness out, but sometimes Ithink it comes in a little bit,
she says, with little concernfor actual facts.
Ogden argued that union memberswere simply not real Americans
and they couldn't help it.
For love of country is bred intopeople, and that was her logic

(36:58):
is that strikes were proof thatthose are people with

Mandy (37:02):
People

katy (37:02):
pride and inferior ethnic background and

Mandy (37:04):
background and that all

katy (37:06):
therefore

Mandy (37:06):
together.
So

katy (37:07):
Americans.
And

Mandy (37:08):
yes,

katy (37:09):
I turn on the news anymore, like this is

Mandy (37:11):
it's the same.
Mm-hmm.

katy (37:12):
are arguing for, like

Mandy (37:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (37:15):
citizenship, why they're, why they're deporting citizens
and saying like, eh, no, they'renot

Mandy (37:19):
They're not really, they're not married.

katy (37:21):
just

Mandy (37:22):
Yeah.

katy (37:22):
it, it's still so, so deep and so current.
There was another part.
is the other Nelly, the other,the other bat.
Nelly, Nelly Nugent, Somerville,which I pictured her as

Mandy (37:34):
Mm-hmm.

katy (37:35):
of Ted Nugent.
Who knows if that's real, butthat's my mind what I

Mandy (37:39):
Let's just go with it.

katy (37:40):
But she, she was arguing that the Constitution created a
republic, not a democracy, andtherefore not every voice had to
be heard.
And it was like, oh my God.

Mandy (37:51):
Wild.

katy (37:51):
it's just so These arguments have never gone away.
And they, you know, like I thinkthis

Mandy (37:57):
Like, I think

katy (37:58):
it connected to this, know, the upheaval of the war
and of this push for civilrights and, you know, the, this
like the

Mandy (38:10):
like the nexus of gender, sex,

katy (38:13):
all of it race

Mandy (38:13):
all of it.
Race class.

katy (38:15):
there's this.

Mandy (38:16):
when there's this

katy (38:17):
of

Mandy (38:17):
mix of things that, and

katy (38:19):
Just

Mandy (38:19):
is happening

katy (38:20):
these people come out of the woodwork and the, the more

Mandy (38:23):
the, and.

katy (38:24):
and direct they get with what

Mandy (38:26):
Mm-hmm.

katy (38:26):
for, and we hear all of the same things today.

Mandy (38:29):
Same arguments.
Yeah.
So Ogden and one of her columnswrote that this anti-immigrant
sentiment that it comes out,that love of country is bred
into peoples and the industrialworkers, which she described as
Eastern European immigrants,lacked the most basic
qualification for Americancitizenship whiteness.
She said most of them have comehere within the last 30 years,

(38:51):
and while many of them havelived in this country and
enjoyed its freedom, they cannotlove it as we do who are born
here.

katy (38:57):
So gross.
And not even

Mandy (38:59):
Ugh.

katy (38:59):
born here, but white people, specifically white

Mandy (39:02):
Yeah.

katy (39:02):
it's just so, it, it, again, it's just this circular
logic like, oh, because whiteChristian people are the reason
this exists.
They're the only ones who canlove it.
It's like all of that is wrong.
Like, it's not

Mandy (39:12):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:14):
like it, and yet it, it just becomes this engine of
policy and actions and it justfeeds itself over and over and
over again.
Like it's just what ah, it's sofrustrating.

Mandy (39:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and the part of the, oneof the things I underlined from
this Nelly Nugent summer rulescolumn that she wrote that I was
like, well, she's not wrong.
It's just that this wholepractice is wrong.
She says, from the earliesttimes in this republic, the
exercise of the electionfranchise has been protected by

(39:47):
qualifications and restrictions.

katy (39:50):
Right.
That is factual.

Mandy (39:51):
But also, but also terrible.
So

katy (39:54):
Right?
Like not something we arecelebrating.
Or in my, this was me beingsnarky was like, great.
Can't wait for thequalifications to be like, no
assholes.
Like no

Mandy (40:05):
yeah.

katy (40:05):
sexist, transphobic, assholes can vote anymore.
Like, great.
You know?
But that to

Mandy (40:10):
Yeah.

katy (40:10):
just like the, the power of democracy, which hinges upon
the, for democracy to work well,people have to give a shit about
each other and they have to beinformed.
Like those,

Mandy (40:26):
Yeah.

katy (40:27):
really important key components to a democracy
working well.
And I

Mandy (40:33):
Yes.
Yep.

katy (40:34):
to say next, like, we don't, a, a significant portion
of people are neither, neither

Mandy (40:40):
Right, right.

katy (40:41):
no.
So

Mandy (40:42):
And this is the part that I have like struggled with in
thinking about things like thetests, like the reading tests,
the, you know, like things, thepoll, taxes, all of that, and
like, yes, obviously these werestructured in a way to very
explicitly exclude black peoplefrom being able to vote.
On the other hand, I think wemight need some sort of an

(41:05):
informed test.
Like, do you know anything aboutwhat you're voting for?
Do you understand this in anysort of way before you just
check yes or no because yourneighbor had a sign or your
pastor told you to, or yourgrandmother's always taught
this, like is there some way toenforce some sort of

katy (41:28):
no.
I mean,

Mandy (41:29):
education?

katy (41:30):
that's it.
Like, no, I think we have

Mandy (41:32):
Think,

katy (41:33):
do our best to strive for it.
It's one of the reasons I careabout education so much is not
so that everybody, the studentI've ever had agrees with me.
You know, that's not the point.
It's just to help them care

Mandy (41:43):
help them care about each other first and foremost,

katy (41:45):
then help

Mandy (41:46):
and then help them value

katy (41:48):
seek out and

Mandy (41:49):
and speak out

katy (41:50):
how

Mandy (41:50):
and know how access information

katy (41:53):
could even have the same exact set of values and

Mandy (41:55):
set

katy (41:55):
to

Mandy (41:56):
and still

katy (41:56):
I mean, I think we see that through history all the
time where

Mandy (41:59):
all time.
Mm-hmm.

katy (42:00):
the same things but, and want the same outcomes, but have
different ideas about

Mandy (42:03):
Different

katy (42:04):
people are always

Mandy (42:05):
people are always gonna disagree.
That's okay.
Yeah.

katy (42:07):
think like I.
You know, I can understand thatdesire to have some sort of
threshold, but I, I

Mandy (42:14):
But I, I just think like the.

katy (42:15):
it's too much power.
It's too much power for someoneto have to say, I get to be the
decider about who knows enoughand who doesn't.
Like, that's just asking forcorruption to happen.
So it's like we just have tokeep it open, do our absolute
best to care about each

Mandy (42:31):
Care about each other and be informed

katy (42:34):
for the best.
Like,

Mandy (42:34):
for the best.
Like, I,

katy (42:35):
don't think

Mandy (42:36):
I don't, I,

katy (42:36):
behind'cause it's just, I wouldn't trust anybody to do a
good job of

Mandy (42:40):
no, no, it's always, it's always gonna go off the rails,
but I still think like our bestis not great right now.
Like

katy (42:49):
there's,

Mandy (42:49):
it's,

katy (42:50):
I used to assign

Mandy (42:52):
real sad

katy (42:53):
An opinion piece that was out years ago about not having

Mandy (42:57):
not having,

katy (42:58):
voting age.
Just like literally, literallyletting anybody vote, like
anyone who's a citizen.
And your first reaction might belike, that's insane.
And

Mandy (43:06):
mm-hmm.

katy (43:06):
the article, I was like, actually, these are really great
arguments.
And honestly, like I

Mandy (43:11):
Honestly, like, are my teacher for it, you know,

katy (43:13):
about the children who I

Mandy (43:16):
I,

katy (43:17):
and

Mandy (43:17):
and their ability to call

katy (43:19):
pretty

Mandy (43:20):
out is pretty great.
Mm-hmm.

katy (43:21):
I don't know, I, except for these two 12-year-old

Mandy (43:24):
But then I also,

katy (43:24):
on

Mandy (43:25):
oh, yes.

katy (43:26):
they're like, dear Mrs.
Roosevelt, we're pissed.
We're, we're in fifth grade andwe hate you.
And like, we, you're bad.
I thought, oh

Mandy (43:33):
Yeah, that was on page one 14 where these girls wrote
their letter and I loved their,their opening line.
I usually do all my own thinkingwhat I think.
Yeah.
But I am not able to put intowords what I think about these,
this dance that she hosted wherethat was like,

katy (43:52):
that you let people dance together.
I don't know.
It's,

Mandy (43:55):
yeah, it's too hard.
Again, it's hard.
And, and I recently, thisreminds me kind of a tangent,
but recently of a video I saw onInstagram of now these men who
are openly advocating forrepealing the 19th Amendment.

katy (44:10):
It's like, it's so

Mandy (44:12):
And so

katy (44:12):
It's so

Mandy (44:13):
Yeah.

katy (44:14):
Yes.

Mandy (44:15):
But not, but not completely.
They just want, they want theirwives.
Vote votes, but they, they wantto control them.
They're like, we should, theyshould still have a vote, but we
get to cast it basically, iswhat they're saying.
And it's the same thing if you,with the, you know, whatever, no
age limit that I see that samething happening with like, sure,

(44:36):
well, kids can vote, we have 18of them, and so we're gonna like

katy (44:40):
right.
Like they're all coming with us.

Mandy (44:43):
Yep.
And we're gonna tell'em exactlywhat they do, you know?

katy (44:46):
but it,

Mandy (44:47):
Yeah.

katy (44:47):
that though, it is like arbitrary line that gets drawn,
like, oh, you're 18 or you're21, or whatever, you know, and
it goes, but like, it just, it,any restriction comes with
baggage, I guess is my

Mandy (44:58):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (45:00):
like

Mandy (45:00):
But it's like,

katy (45:01):
too, so Yes, absolutely.

Mandy (45:03):
yes.
Yeah.

katy (45:04):
intentionally having 27 kids to, you know, further the
apocalypse or whatever the logicis.
I don't

Mandy (45:10):
Well, and this is the, the next part that I had
highlighted in this chapterabout how things go both ways.
So there was, you know, this Ms.
Ogden who was writing her MyDear Boys column, supporting
these soldiers and all of this

katy (45:24):
by the way.
Where's this

Mandy (45:26):
by the

katy (45:26):
She called it a

Mandy (45:27):
lotions of love.

katy (45:29):
was

Mandy (45:30):
of Love.
What does that mean?

katy (45:33):
and I had a lot of questions about

Mandy (45:36):
Lotions of love.
I don't even understand.

katy (45:39):
this column, but go ahead.

Mandy (45:41):
Yeah.
But despite her, like supposedsupport for soldiers, she did
not support the Soldier VotingAct,

katy (45:52):
Right.

Mandy (45:53):
which was basically saying that these soldiers who
were serving could cast theirvotes even when they were not at
home.
And she was against that becausewhat that meant is that black
soldiers could also vote

katy (46:08):
Right,

Mandy (46:08):
they would be able to do it separated from these southern
institutions that intimidatedthem out of voting.

katy (46:16):
That's

Mandy (46:16):
And

katy (46:17):
Yep.

Mandy (46:18):
they did not want that to happen.
They didn't want themrepresented, and they were so
willing to push to keep themfrom being represented that they
were willing to take the voteaway from their own white sons,
their own husbands, their ownwhatever.
Because anything to keep thevote away from black people
again,

katy (46:38):
Yes.
It's chilling.

Mandy (46:39):
the cartwheels, the gymnastics, the craziness that
you have to go through toconvince yourself that you're
doing the right thing in all ofthis.
I can't, I can't.

katy (46:50):
and I think we're moving into like, especially thinking
about the 1940s, there arealready some, some pretty
significant.
desegregation cases that havebeen happening.
But of

Mandy (47:02):
Happening, but of course.

katy (47:03):
of those cases is 1954 Brown v.
Board of Education.
So I feel like

Mandy (47:07):
So I feel like we're, we're kind of to

katy (47:10):
involvement

Mandy (47:11):
women's involvement in back against this and again,

katy (47:14):
lotion

Mandy (47:15):
down to lotion model to

katy (47:16):
speeches.
And she was just constantlyspeaking to mothers, really,
specifically white mothers, andappealing to them to think about
you and your children

Mandy (47:27):
and

katy (47:27):
children to fight what she called ization.
It's just so fucking disgusting.
And then she's pulling fromeugenics to say, segregation
comes

Mandy (47:38):
Segregation.

katy (47:38):
from our ancestors.
Race preservation is selfpreservation.
I feel like.
Andrew Schultz or any of theselike podcast bros are just like
jizzing everywhere when theyhear this history, like, yes.
She's saying of her ancestors,I'm glad mine were white and
American.
I know every woman around thistable is proud of her ancestors
who gave us America.
Again, it's like

Mandy (47:57):
It's like

katy (47:58):
you invent this myth

Mandy (48:00):
invented

katy (48:01):
your

Mandy (48:02):
your

katy (48:02):
advocacy.
Like you, you

Mandy (48:03):
mm-hmm.

katy (48:04):
that then cycles back on itself to promote that thing
that relies on that thing andit's

Mandy (48:09):
Thing

katy (48:09):
But she says our most dangerous and

Mandy (48:11):
The.

katy (48:11):
reaching threat facing Americans in 1948 is the threat
to the white race.
If science or history did notsatisfy her audience, she
asserted that segregation

Mandy (48:19):
Segregates,

katy (48:20):
planned it.
And I still think he is a betterplanner than President Truman in
his civil rights committee, oreven Mrs.
Roosevelt

Mandy (48:27):
thank you.
Seriously.
And somebody, okay, I've gottafind where I underline this, but
somebody then I think quotingthat article said that like her
article should be, you know,basically published nationally
and it was the second only tothe Bible

katy (48:45):
geez.

Mandy (48:45):
in the sense that she made and the truth that she
spoke.
And I, I can't see where Iunderlined that, but somewhere
in there I was like, oh, vomitall over the place.
Like, just

katy (48:57):
Yeah,

Mandy (48:58):
terrible.

katy (48:58):
well

Mandy (48:59):
The,

katy (48:59):
ends here with the 1948 presidential election.
I

Mandy (49:02):
mm-hmm.

katy (49:03):
like, my Iowa History nerd alarm was going off throughout
this chapter because it mentionsJohn L.
Lewis, who was a, a reallysignificant labor leader in all
those

Mandy (49:13):
In all those

katy (49:14):
white women were like freaking out about.
He's from Iowa,

Mandy (49:17):
from

katy (49:17):
then Henry Wallace, who was the candidate for the
Progressive party, also fromIowa,

Mandy (49:22):
From

katy (49:23):
was FDRs.
Vice president in his thirdterm, he'd also served as
Secretary of Agriculture.
And his stance even now

Mandy (49:31):
now,

katy (49:31):
to

Mandy (49:32):
it's hard.

katy (49:32):
and not think that would be a fresh campaign today in the
year

Mandy (49:36):
Mm-hmm.

katy (49:37):
But

Mandy (49:38):
Mm-hmm.

katy (49:39):
I mean the softer

Mandy (49:40):
I mean,

katy (49:40):
Soviet Union is complicated because Russia was
not like there's complicationsthere.
But

Mandy (49:45):
yeah.

katy (49:46):
platforms were explicitly about

Mandy (49:50):
about brotherhood and non segregation,

katy (49:52):
that he

Mandy (49:53):
that

katy (49:53):
a hard line

Mandy (49:54):
we had borderline demand for racial

katy (49:55):
and was

Mandy (49:56):
inequality and was also a great reporter of labor rights,
and it was just very

katy (50:00):
all of those

Mandy (50:01):
clear.
All of those things aligned.
And so it talks about how

katy (50:04):
about

Mandy (50:05):
the book talks about how.

katy (50:06):
candidacy was again, kind of

Mandy (50:09):
again, kind of that perfect lightning rod

katy (50:12):
all

Mandy (50:12):
galvanize all these people together, which is
certainly

katy (50:14):
Wallace's intention, you know, to

Mandy (50:16):
mm-hmm.

katy (50:17):
a.
Like a common

Mandy (50:19):
Common

katy (50:20):
enemy for

Mandy (50:21):
ending.
All people

katy (50:22):
around and

Mandy (50:23):
together around and say like,

katy (50:24):
why

Mandy (50:25):
is why

katy (50:26):
all be

Mandy (50:27):
all,

katy (50:27):
or like, this is why we all need to work together.
But they were able to

Mandy (50:30):
but they were able to frame

katy (50:32):
him as

Mandy (50:33):
him as this

katy (50:34):
person

Mandy (50:34):
dangerous person

katy (50:35):
these

Mandy (50:35):
in all of these categories, and so their

katy (50:39):
opposition could

Mandy (50:39):
opposition could become explicitly anti, anti-black,
anti rights, anti, mm-hmm.

katy (50:46):
of those things.
And like holding gender,

Mandy (50:49):
Gender

katy (50:50):
talk about this, but this is

Mandy (50:51):
about this.
This is also the beginning of,of

katy (50:54):
explicitly anti-gay,

Mandy (50:57):
gay

katy (50:57):
actions.
Like the lavender

Mandy (50:59):
la

katy (51:00):
is not too far away.
Like there

Mandy (51:02):
away.
There were.

katy (51:03):
of gay men

Mandy (51:05):
Gay men from the government, like

katy (51:07):
of these

Mandy (51:07):
all these

katy (51:08):
together.

Mandy (51:09):
together.
Mm-hmm.

katy (51:10):
we, when we

Mandy (51:11):
And

katy (51:11):
about reproductive justice, like there was, this
was also a lot of sterilizationlaws coming into play.
Like just that eugenics logic atthe heart of everything that
here's this candidate who comesalong, who's representing
opposite of

Mandy (51:25):
the opposite of all those things.
And so it just help them and

katy (51:28):
combine

Mandy (51:28):
combine their class one.
Yeah.

katy (51:32):
you know.

Mandy (51:33):
Yeah.
So even if there were people whomight not have been on one side
of a labor issue or the otherside of the segregation issue,
they all felt like they had tocome together.
They all just got more power.
They saw they could defeat thesethings easier if they all did
come together and fight againstbasically any of these agendas

(51:55):
that

katy (51:55):
able to

Mandy (51:56):
they were.

katy (51:56):
we're out democratic

Mandy (51:58):
Yeah.

katy (51:58):
like, we're gone and we're gonna pull all

Mandy (52:01):
Yeah.

katy (52:01):
like, we're going to, you know,

Mandy (52:02):
All we're gonna do

katy (52:03):
And we mentioned this last week was

Mandy (52:05):
was

katy (52:05):
white

Mandy (52:05):
the fact that white women mm-hmm.

katy (52:15):
pull their men basically

Mandy (52:18):
basically

katy (52:19):
other

Mandy (52:19):
other

katy (52:20):
and

Mandy (52:20):
track

katy (52:21):
not,

Mandy (52:21):
say like, we're not, we're not gonna be charged

katy (52:23):
anymore.
We're going to do our own thing.

Mandy (52:26):
our

katy (52:26):
to

Mandy (52:26):
own, we're gonna,

katy (52:27):
Republican party politics.
And that

Mandy (52:30):
and that

katy (52:31):
their, the era when that

Mandy (52:33):
era, when that.

katy (52:34):
women were super, super influential in that and, and
recreating the.
landscape to one that's morefamiliar to us today.

Mandy (52:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I felt like this whole chapterwas, because we have said this,
we in the past we have alwayswondered like what happened to
the switch with the RepublicanDemocratic Party, the, you know,
Lincoln being the Republicanparty and now it have, having
different ideologies and I feltlike this chapter was the
answer.
Like, this is what happened.

(53:04):
It's very clear.

katy (53:05):
white women

Mandy (53:07):
women.
Yeah.

katy (53:08):
nooks and crannies of that story.

Mandy (53:10):
Yeah.

katy (53:10):
the last thing I'll say, just to set us up for the next
chapter, which is focused on JimCrow's International Enemies and
Nationwide Allies, that anotherpiece of what was pushing
changes at a faster

Mandy (53:24):
faster rate.

katy (53:25):
the international pressure to desegregate and to.
More clearly delineate betweenthe United States and Nazi
Germany, you know, that therewere, there was a lot of
international condemnation ofwhat was happening in the United
States.
And it,

Mandy (53:42):
And I'm

katy (53:43):
we'll see when we get into this chapter, but something else
that has always puzzled me inthis era that we're living in,
of the combination of issuesthat people really care about,
is there the like intensehostility towards the United
Nations and towards government.
And it's

Mandy (54:00):
Government, and now it makes so much more sense.
It's like, oh.

katy (54:03):
government because of the strings attached or the
commitments, then the UN is likefederal government on steroids
that has a declaration of humanrights and a declaration of
children's rights and adeclaration of Indigenous
rights.
It's like, well, yeah, of coursenot.
Like of course that's gonna beeven worse.
And why you're gonna care aboutthe UN and have all these
conspiracy theories and youknow, things that

Mandy (54:24):
Mm-hmm.

katy (54:24):
angry.
So yeah, just helping.
It's one of those things whereyou tilt all these issues one
way and they seem disconnectedand you, you just walk behind
the

Mandy (54:33):
Walk behind the scenes and they're like, oh, they're
all plugged.

katy (54:35):
cord.
Like they're

Mandy (54:36):
Yeah, yeah,

katy (54:37):
fueled by the same thing.

Mandy (54:39):
yeah.
Right.
And I think in one way we'velooked at all of this history
and been discouraged that we'restill doing it again.
It's like, oh we,

katy (54:50):
Hmm.

Mandy (54:50):
this has never gone away.
This seems to be on repeat.

katy (54:54):
Right.

Mandy (54:54):
But on the other hand, I'm also like, okay, this seems
like a pretty shitty time inhistory.
Some terrible stuff washappening, but we did come out
of it somewhat.
Obviously we know it went, neverwent away, but in ways we came
out of it and we made someprogress.
And hopefully that can alsohappen again.

(55:17):
I mean, hopefully there's somesort of, and maybe we can

katy (55:20):
It's so

Mandy (55:21):
learn the lessons of the past to not

katy (55:25):
I have

Mandy (55:25):
continue in it.

katy (55:26):
I know

Mandy (55:27):
I know.

katy (55:27):
like the Pollyanna of our partnership to try to say like,
don't despair.
But I, I have been thinking alot about unintended
consequences for better or forworse.
Like Henry Wallace is acandidate, like galvanizes these
people, you

Mandy (55:41):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:42):
Eleanor Roosevelt, you

Mandy (55:43):
Roosevelt.

katy (55:44):
galvanized them, pissed them off enough to

Mandy (55:46):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:46):
than what they were doing.
And it's, so it's interesting tothink about like, what are the
tactics, what are thestrategies, what are we trying
to do that will morefoundationally fundamentally
shift things to be focused on

Mandy (56:04):
Find

katy (56:04):
caring about each

Mandy (56:05):
caring about each other, caring about their earth,

katy (56:08):
not being

Mandy (56:09):
not naturally.
Mm-hmm.

katy (56:11):
not oppressing people.
Like what, what will move theneedle in that way?

Mandy (56:15):
that way,

katy (56:16):
And I,

Mandy (56:17):
and I,

katy (56:18):
the

Mandy (56:18):
I think learning a lot since the past

katy (56:20):
really open to some of

Mandy (56:21):
open.

katy (56:22):
Being hard to learn and challenging maybe what we wish
were true or wish could happen.
But, you know,

Mandy (56:29):
But,

katy (56:29):
even

Mandy (56:29):
you know, I don't even know what that meant.
I

katy (56:32):
of what I'm saying, but one of the takeaways from this

Mandy (56:35):
things

katy (56:36):
just trying to think about

Mandy (56:37):
about how,

katy (56:39):
how open we

Mandy (56:40):
how open

katy (56:41):
different tactics and strategies that, that actually
do move the needle.
And of course, I mean, we'vetalked about this a million
times over the years, just ofthe most obvious ways is for
white people to not be thecenter of anything.
And I know I say this as a whitewoman talking to another white
woman on a podcast, we startedto talk about white women.
You know, like, I think there'sa role for that.

(57:01):
I, one of the messages is

Mandy (57:03):
one of the messages.

katy (57:04):
F out of the way.
Just like get, stop interveningand interfering and throw
whatever resources and supportyou have behind people doing the
work from the positions ofbeing.
The ones who are targets ofthings, you know,

Mandy (57:21):
Yeah.

katy (57:21):
but I, I

Mandy (57:22):
Well, and I, yeah, I agree with that part of it
completely.
I also think part of the reasonthat it's so easy for some of
these things to never go away,like these people, the
segregationists and like antifederal involvement, people like
never left is because they areallowed to hide in the

(57:42):
background.
And so it, it seems like we'vemade victories where we have not
made victories, and I thinkbeing very conscious of not
doing that is also veryimportant.
Like to make sure that thesehistories are known and to call
it out when it is still goingon.
There was one another likeInstagram reel that I remember

(58:04):
seeing from a.
Black activist, politicalcommentator named Joshua Doss,
where he pushes back a bitagainst the current group of
liberals who are convinced thatTrump stole this last election,
which, whatever.
That could be discussed invarious ways.

katy (58:20):
the fact that people want this.
Like,

Mandy (58:22):
That's what he said.
He is like, if, if you do that,then that will be used as a
narrative to help those peoplehide in the future.
When hopefully we come out onthe other side and people are
against it, then you're, you'renot making them own that choice.

(58:42):
You're not making them have thatresponsibility.
If you say, oh, well it wasstolen, then they could say, oh,
it was stolen.
I didn't do that.
You know, like, no, you didthat.
You all did that.
We're gonna remember that.

katy (58:55):
Well, and

Mandy (58:55):
And that's more helpful.

katy (58:57):
about what actually we

Mandy (58:59):
What actually,

katy (59:00):
You know, and

Mandy (59:01):
yeah,

katy (59:01):
is

Mandy (59:01):
I think there is this desire and.

katy (59:03):
hear it necessarily as much, but in campaign time
especially, there's thisrhetoric among a lot of
democratic candidates, like,that's not who

Mandy (59:10):
That's not who we're mm-hmm.

katy (59:12):
I'm like,

Mandy (59:12):
It's,

katy (59:13):
it,

Mandy (59:13):
yeah.

katy (59:14):
we

Mandy (59:14):
not who we wanna be.
It's

katy (59:16):
it,

Mandy (59:16):
way to put it.

katy (59:17):
I don't know who's in

Mandy (59:18):
I,

katy (59:18):
we, like, I wish that we were bigger, but I, I,

Mandy (59:22):
I

katy (59:23):
appreciate that, like, just the most

Mandy (59:24):
is the most honest

katy (59:26):
possible

Mandy (59:26):
possible.
And

katy (59:28):
to.
Make sure and protect thehistories that help explain
that.

Mandy (59:34):
explain that side note.

katy (59:36):
learned

Mandy (59:36):
learned that

katy (59:37):
Iowa

Mandy (59:38):
Iowa, I

katy (59:39):
that the

Mandy (59:40):
that the branch of the state

katy (59:42):
in Iowa City

Mandy (59:42):
in Iowa City

katy (59:43):
longer

Mandy (59:44):
no longer.

katy (59:45):
they're not funding it anymore.
And that's where the women'sarchives are for the state.
That's where the labor historyarchives are.
And so just thinking

Mandy (59:51):
And so just thinking that what happens,

katy (59:52):
that's

Mandy (59:53):
there's no plan that's been

katy (59:54):
the, the main

Mandy (59:55):
announced.

katy (59:55):
can't, they can't even take

Mandy (59:57):
They can't even take

katy (59:57):
this other

Mandy (59:58):
this other archive.

katy (59:59):
And so there's like

Mandy (01:00:00):
So.

katy (01:00:01):
are they just gonna throw things out?
Are they going to try to donatethem to other places?
But if we no longer have a placewhere

Mandy (01:00:08):
Have a place we're

katy (01:00:10):
women's stories or collecting labor history stories
like that makes it real easy tonever teach about it because we
don't, we literally don't havethe

Mandy (01:00:18):
don't have.

katy (01:00:18):
of it.
So it's just, yeah, a call tomake sure.
I've just been so frustrated byhow many websites in research
and work I do for my actual job.
I'll try to find a

Mandy (01:00:28):
try to find a website.

katy (01:00:30):
gone.
The information is

Mandy (01:00:31):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:00:31):
all, it's all information about history of people, of
color, history of women,

Mandy (01:00:36):
Women

katy (01:00:37):
plus history.
Those are the websites

Mandy (01:00:39):
are the websites.

katy (01:00:40):
and it is super disturbing.
So just, yeah.
Thinking about moving forward,what are the lessons learned?
One of the lessons is to makesure we have lessons to learn
because we have history.

Mandy (01:00:52):
Yep.
Yep.
Well, they can always get on andlisten to us.

katy (01:00:57):
Until they delete the internet, we should, we should
make,

Mandy (01:01:01):
Okay.

katy (01:01:01):
LPs or whatever they like record albums and just have
records.
People can play on it like aphonograph machine.
I think that's the best way toprotect.

Mandy (01:01:11):
they'll be handed down to our great grandkids who will be
like, who are these women?
We don't care.

katy (01:01:16):
this?
Oh my God.
Well, I, I am

Mandy (01:01:19):
All right.

katy (01:01:20):
again and see you next week.
Thanks for listening,

Mandy (01:01:22):
Okay.
We'll see you.
Bye.