Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi,
katy (00:15):
Hi.
Mandy (00:17):
how are you?
katy (00:18):
I'm good.
I'm happy to see you
Mandy (00:19):
I'm happy to you.
katy (00:20):
for
Mandy (00:20):
know,
katy (00:21):
week in a row.
Mandy (00:23):
I know.
This is amazing.
katy (00:25):
I, I feel like maybe
that's
Mandy (00:26):
I feel
katy (00:27):
like a, a low bar for
people who want to have a
podcast to just recordregularly, but I am really proud
of us.
Mandy (00:34):
well, we've got a lot
going on.
I mean, we've said it is superhard.
It's very hard.
Kids are going back to schoolnext week here in Nevada, so
that may or may not help.
I always feel like the summer isgonna be better, and then I'm
like, I don't know.
I don't think it is.
I,
katy (00:50):
Mm.
I don't think it is either.
I
Mandy (00:51):
I don't,
katy (00:52):
I mean, I love summer, but
I, it feels like a less
structured, just moreunpredictable kind of time of
year and I, I feel
Mandy (01:02):
yeah.
katy (01:02):
a lot more guilt
associated with Summer.
Like there's some sort of
Mandy (01:06):
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:07):
I'm supposed to be
providing my children and
Mandy (01:10):
Yeah.
katy (01:10):
to provide.
Mandy (01:11):
Yeah.
You're supposed to be morepresent, more involved in things
and
katy (01:16):
failing
Mandy (01:16):
another.
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:18):
all those, all those
voices of, you know, what
capitalism and white supremacythat we should just learn to
totally ignore it.
Not that all of
Mandy (01:26):
Not that all those
katy (01:26):
my head are
Mandy (01:27):
voices in head
katy (01:28):
a lot of them are.
So I can
Mandy (01:29):
a lot.
katy (01:30):
take it down a
Mandy (01:31):
Take it down.
katy (01:32):
we Chapter
Mandy (01:33):
we're
katy (01:33):
of Elizabeth Gillespie,
Mcgras mothers of Massive
Resistance.
And I will be
Mandy (01:39):
I,
katy (01:40):
that I read this literally
right before, and Mandy was very
kind in giving me extra time toprepare.
But I'm so glad I did.
It was great.
Mandy (01:50):
well, you probably still
will have retained more than I
do because I feel like.
I feel like it's not mycomprehension that's a problem.
It's definitely retention.
That's a problem.
'cause I listened to this on theaudio book version'cause I, as I
drove up to Utah earlier thisweek,'cause I'm visiting my
parents.
And then I read it yesterday
katy (02:11):
Okay.
Mandy (02:12):
and, and I didn't
remember most of what I read.
I was like, oh, I listened tothis.
Huh.
I wonder what else my mind wasthinking of as it was playing in
the car.
'cause I don't remember this atall.
katy (02:24):
It's like none of the ways
to retain information or helping
me anymore.
I was just thinking about howwhen I was in high
Mandy (02:31):
I,
katy (02:31):
where, I mean, we were in
high school together, but I did
plays and now
Mandy (02:35):
mm-hmm.
katy (02:35):
I, I
Mandy (02:36):
I, I
katy (02:38):
there are things I
Mandy (02:38):
there
katy (02:39):
about
Mandy (02:40):
about
katy (02:40):
and
Mandy (02:40):
being a theater and
sometimes
katy (02:42):
I get involved in
community theater here?
Mandy (02:43):
theater.
katy (02:44):
know I cannot.
I, there's no way I would everbe able to remember anything.
Mandy (02:49):
Lines.
Yeah.
No
katy (02:51):
I read Bo the same.
Every
Mandy (02:55):
Every
katy (02:56):
time I put him to bed and
it is not, there aren't even
that many lines of text.
It's called GrandfatherTwilight.
If anyone knows this book, it'sreally lovely and like a nice
goodnight book.
could not tell
Mandy (03:07):
would not tell you.
I know this, this,
katy (03:09):
repeat any of the lines
and I've read it
Mandy (03:11):
and I read it.
katy (03:12):
at this
Mandy (03:12):
Yeah.
Well, I will get like the, youknow, the six digit text codes
to log to something and I'll belike, I can remember this.
I can go from my phone to mycomputer and remember these six
digits.
No,
katy (03:27):
no.
Mandy (03:27):
no, I cannot.
katy (03:29):
This is
Mandy (03:29):
It's, it's terrible.
katy (03:31):
are times where like, I
was almost in tears last night.
I, my daughter had lost a brushand.
I thought, oh, it might actuallybe like, really under her bed.
And so I got under and dugaround and found
Mandy (03:44):
Around.
katy (03:44):
popped up and said to
everybody like, ha ha, I found
the
Mandy (03:48):
I found
katy (03:48):
This is so great.
Mandy (03:50):
this is so great and it
katy (03:51):
15 seconds
Mandy (03:52):
15 seconds
katy (03:53):
not
Mandy (03:54):
that I could not
katy (03:55):
And I was almost in tears,
like looking at my husband,
like, are you guys punking me?
Like, are you guys are
Mandy (04:00):
Yeah,
katy (04:00):
like, no.
And I, I spent the
Mandy (04:03):
I
katy (04:03):
minutes like
Mandy (04:04):
next five minutes
katy (04:05):
and thinking
Mandy (04:06):
and thinking I have lost
my mind.
katy (04:09):
And it was in a laundry
basket.
Why don't know
Mandy (04:13):
Well
katy (04:14):
I
Mandy (04:14):
see.
That would've been me and itwould've been like in my hand
while I was searching all overbefore it like, oh, it's right
here.
I've done that before.
I've walked around the houselooking for my phone, like with
my phone in my hand, and I'mlike, yeah.
Yeah.
Like where is it?
katy (04:33):
oh
Mandy (04:34):
it's great.
katy (04:34):
I, I
Mandy (04:35):
Aging is going well.
katy (04:37):
Like if this is where I
we're at, at this stage of our
lives, it does not bode well fordecades in the future.
But, you know,
Mandy (04:43):
No.
No.
katy (04:45):
who knows?
Mandy (04:45):
So I hope someone's
coming up with something, but
nobody seems to be coming upwith anything to fix the
problems that we're having
katy (04:53):
I
Mandy (04:53):
as a society.
katy (04:55):
all anything.
Yeah.
Mandy (04:56):
No.
Mm,
katy (04:57):
in some ways like the more
I become like a goldfish, maybe
the happier I am as a persontoo.
Like it's just allows me to notremember why I was really upset
and mad about something 14seconds ago.
You know?
Mandy (05:09):
right.
Yeah.
katy (05:10):
It's like the
Mandy (05:10):
It might be true.
katy (05:11):
I'm living here.
The name of Dory Life.
Alright, well this chapter iscalled Partisan Betrayals.
A bad woman, weak white Men, andthe End of their Party, the Bad
Woman, I think refers to EleanorRoosevelt.
Mandy (05:24):
Yeah, I know.
I was fascinated.
No, not at all.
Although I did feel much betterreading this chapter than I felt
reading the last chapter.
'cause we talked about how mydaughter's name is Nell, and in
the last chapter, the Nell ofthat chapter was not someone we
really loved.
But, but Nell's, my daughter,Nell's full name is actually
(05:46):
Eleanor.
katy (05:46):
Okay.
Mandy (05:47):
And so, and Nell is a
nickname.
So then I was reading thischapter and I was like, okay,
redeemed.
It was like,
katy (05:53):
We don't have to change
her name to something else.
Oh gosh.
Mandy (05:57):
I feel better.
Although another Nelly was alsointroduced in this chapter too.
And I was like, what is withthis?
Like, I swear this is not a namethat was at all popular in any
way, but apparently
katy (06:10):
Oh.
Mandy (06:11):
this network of white
women, like
katy (06:13):
I, I
Mandy (06:14):
it was the whole thing.
That, yeah.
katy (06:15):
these women
Mandy (06:16):
These women would've
katy (06:17):
born like in the early 19
hundreds or whatever.
It makes me
Mandy (06:20):
whatever It makes me
think of like,
katy (06:22):
Nelly from Little House in
the Prairie.
Wasn't that her name?
Mandy (06:25):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
katy (06:27):
girl.
I don't know how else to
Mandy (06:28):
Yeah.
katy (06:29):
her, but yeah, maybe there
Mandy (06:31):
Yeah.
Maybe there was of
katy (06:33):
floating around.
Like it sort of like Katie,
Mandy (06:35):
sort of like, I feel like
katy (06:36):
growing
Mandy (06:37):
when we were growing up
katy (06:38):
white Catholic girl I ever
met was named Katie, and now I
never
Mandy (06:41):
Yeah.
katy (06:42):
being, maybe there just
aren't white Catholic girls
being born anymore.
That I don't.
Mandy (06:46):
One can,
katy (06:47):
Fingers crossed.
Yeah.
Mandy (06:49):
yeah,
katy (06:49):
fair enough.
Yeah.
I'm
Mandy (06:52):
it'll come back around.
It's all cycles.
katy (06:54):
I'm
Mandy (06:54):
It is all in a cycle.
katy (06:56):
a charming old fashioned
name.
But anyway so the chapter opensup.
It's a, a nice segue chapter, Ithink from the wound we were
learning about in the previouschapters and then taking them
into World War II wartime and
Mandy (07:11):
Mm-hmm.
katy (07:12):
from the Democrats to the
Dixiecrats to the Republican
Mandy (07:17):
Republican party
katy (07:18):
and why that flipped.
And just the way that whitewomen were instrumental in that,
in, in a way that
Mandy (07:24):
in a way that was
basically
katy (07:26):
women committed to white
supremacy being so annoyed with
the white men in their
Mandy (07:31):
in their,
katy (07:31):
Ugh, you can't do
anything.
We're gonna have to
Mandy (07:34):
yeah.
katy (07:34):
And like
Mandy (07:35):
Yep.
katy (07:35):
them away from these
forces that were leading to more
Mandy (07:41):
More progressive.
katy (07:44):
So let's start with with
Eleanor Roosevelt and, and FDR.
I mean,
Mandy (07:49):
Yeah.
katy (07:50):
honestly like a whole
other rabbit hole.
We could
Mandy (07:53):
About the
katy (07:53):
thinking
Mandy (07:54):
down.
katy (07:54):
only president we've had
who served three terms and just
what a unique position he was induring World War ii.
And just a, a lot of reallyfascinating ins and outs to his
presidency, I think.
And his relationship withEleanor Roosevelt and her role
as
Mandy (08:10):
Yeah,
katy (08:11):
was really, I think like
the first, first lady who, who
was super involved.
I don't know that
Mandy (08:19):
I know that,
katy (08:19):
right.
So I'm gonna say it.
Mandy (08:21):
right.
I mean, I don't rememberlearning about many other first
ladies,
katy (08:26):
nothing.
Mandy (08:27):
but yeah, just, just was
clearly not taught.
That's for sure.
katy (08:32):
know.
Mandy (08:33):
but neither was like this
history of Eleanor Roosevelt.
I didn't know she was such acontroversial figure or so
influential
katy (08:42):
Yeah,
Mandy (08:43):
Yeah,
katy (08:43):
rod at
Mandy (08:44):
a lightning rod at one
point.
I think
katy (08:46):
even the word that's used.
But I, I think like, just to
Mandy (08:49):
they, I think
katy (08:49):
our, I
Mandy (08:50):
refresher I
katy (08:51):
this so much further than
we are going to get into, but
just thinking about World War IIthis really pivotal catalyst in
Mandy (08:59):
catalyst in so many ways,
katy (09:01):
when
Mandy (09:01):
especially.
katy (09:02):
desegregation efforts,
because you had men and women,
black men and women who wereserving in the military
Mandy (09:10):
Military.
Mm-hmm.
katy (09:12):
V campaign, which was
victory against the Nazis and
against fascists, but alsovictory at home against fascism
at home, basically like pointingout that these were not actually
so different.
It made me wonder,
Mandy (09:26):
Wonder
katy (09:27):
to be honest,
Mandy (09:28):
to be honest, like how it
was
katy (09:31):
patriotic
Mandy (09:32):
patriot,
katy (09:32):
against the Nazis whipped
up.
Because
Mandy (09:35):
because
katy (09:36):
is
Mandy (09:36):
there really is so much
katy (09:38):
and
Mandy (09:38):
common and so much
mm-hmm.
katy (09:41):
like,
Mandy (09:41):
yeah, I mean, we
discussed that all in our
eugenics season that we did too,where we talked about how much
of like the Nazis and Hitler'scampaigns actually drew upon,
like the eugenics movements thatwere happening in the United
States.
So yeah, it is kind of baffling
katy (09:59):
And
Mandy (09:59):
there was
katy (10:00):
like
Mandy (10:01):
what.
katy (10:01):
we were
Mandy (10:01):
Remember we were learning
katy (10:02):
Charles Lindberg, this
famous pilot, and he was very
openly pro-Nazi
Mandy (10:08):
Nazi, and there were
absolutely
katy (10:11):
leaders who not anti-Nazi.
But it is just interesting to mehow that that patriotism like
the anti-Nazi patriotism.
got translated to pro-US.
It's like, oh, I don't think a
Mandy (10:27):
don't think a lot of
these white women.
katy (10:29):
about what that would then
mean.
You know,
Mandy (10:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy (10:32):
like the questioning
Mandy (10:33):
these,
katy (10:33):
segregation.
Mandy (10:34):
women were doing it.
katy (10:35):
did.
Mandy (10:36):
white women were doing
the math.
They knew what was happening.
They were like, this is not okaywith us and we've gotta figure
out a way to combat this.
But it is also to me interestingthen to see how, again, the
stories of history get told andall of that.
Part of it gets erased.
Like there was clearly a lot ofopposition to the US getting
(10:59):
into the, the wars, and I thinkthat gets lost once we move past
it.
Once the victory happened, itwas like, oh yeah, no, everybody
was always on board.
Everybody always thought theNazis were bad and they wanted
to, you know, save the Jews.
It's like that was absolutelynot what a huge portion of the
(11:21):
population felt at that point intime.
katy (11:23):
of antisemitism in the
Mandy (11:24):
Tons of antisemitism
katy (11:25):
and
Mandy (11:26):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:26):
lots of pro fascism in the
United States, that clearly has
not gone away.
So yes, I agree.
I think that is the danger ofthe way that history often gets
learned or taught is like verysimplistic, good guy, bad guy.
We were all for this.
That that doesn't make sensebecause if that was the case of
what you know, it just, if youthink about it for two seconds,
(11:47):
you will, the complexity comesflooding in.
But I think that's the hope isthat nobody thinks about it for
more than two seconds.
So this is really where themassive.
Support for segregationtransformed into massive
resistance.
That's a quote from page one 10,where they, their job, the job
of these white women was reallyto like, get white people to
(12:09):
keep caring about maintainingwhite supremacy and just really
like keeping it tight, you know?
And, and then because of WorldWar II and all these big changes
in the federal government andFDRs, like a bunch of things
happening, they were put ondefense instead of offense.
At least that's how I took it,to
Mandy (12:25):
Yeah,
katy (12:26):
do whatever they could to,
to put a stop to the, the
dismantling of white supremacy.
Mandy (12:32):
what's
katy (12:33):
sad is that the
Mandy (12:33):
sad is that
katy (12:34):
yes,
Mandy (12:35):
like
katy (12:35):
were important and
Mandy (12:36):
are important and
powerful and honestly
katy (12:37):
chapter like, how did
anything ever happen
Mandy (12:40):
happen.
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:41):
But it's also
Mandy (12:42):
It's
katy (12:43):
it.
Mandy (12:43):
not like.
katy (12:44):
It was wildly successful
Mandy (12:46):
successful,
katy (12:47):
was really happening
Mandy (12:48):
really happening.
Yeah.
katy (12:49):
and in all sorts of
structural ways.
It's like, oh my God, it wasn'teven, it just does not
Mandy (12:53):
It just does not take
much progress.
katy (12:55):
the fuck out.
Let's put it that
Mandy (12:57):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:58):
So,
Mandy (12:59):
Yes.
Which also continues alongtoday,
katy (13:02):
Hello.
So
Mandy (13:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy (13:05):
into the the, the ways
that
Mandy (13:07):
way that,
katy (13:08):
their freak out
Mandy (13:09):
mm-hmm.
katy (13:10):
one way that showed up was
them really hating, super
publicly hating EleanorRoosevelt.
Mandy (13:16):
Yeah, so she says that.
And this is the bottom of pageone 10.
Southern white womenreconfigured white supremacist
politics during this time inthree ways.
And the first one was theyunderstood Eleanor Roosevelt as
embodying the political betrayalof the Democratic Party.
For some women, the fractures intheir partisan loyalty became
salient in their wartimecritiques of the first lady she
(13:38):
served as a gendered threat toracial segregation and a
racialized threat to whitesouthern womanhood.
So she basically was just theopposite of everything that
white southern women had everthought of themselves to be, had
taught their children to be andwhat they thought was the
correct way to live.
(13:59):
And so they just took everythingthat she did and basically just
raked her over the coals in newsarticles and like her political
travels.
And there was this one storywhere she had gone to Livingston
College, which was a blackcollege and university.
And she spent the day with themthere at that.
(14:22):
And then that evening she wentand then addressed like, it
seems like a more whiteaudience, the General Convention
of Christian Education.
American Methodist, EpiscopalZion Church, and then the DAR,
the UDC, the PTA.
But then at night she went backand dined with black women and
men and that just set peoplecompletely off.
(14:47):
They basically said, you know,whatever northerners want to do
above the Mason Dixon line, theycan do, but you can't bring that
down to the south.
And so it got to, it was at thepoint where after she did that,
the women in that area refusedto even provide overnight
accommodations for her, and shehad to travel back up north
(15:10):
because no one would let herstay with them.
katy (15:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (15:13):
Which just seems just
wild.
I mean, I guess there weren'thotels,
katy (15:18):
Well, I know the, yeah,
right.
Mandy (15:20):
like you're just staying
with people in their houses.
I suppose that is the way ithappened.
katy (15:24):
made me
Mandy (15:25):
It made me think,
katy (15:26):
the, oh, these are the
Mandy (15:27):
oh, these are the invert,
katy (15:28):
kind of petty detective.
Like they're, they're
Mandy (15:31):
they're, they're
katy (15:32):
ness as a tool for
Mandy (15:33):
as.
katy (15:34):
Like they, it says that
they thought she was worth
monitoring because she was doingall these things that made them
so mad.
And so just again, thinkingabout like pre-social media, the
way that these women were ableto keep tabs on her and get
pissed about the smallest thingsand then turn those into big
things like, they were, they
Mandy (15:53):
They were, they were,
katy (15:54):
Boy Scouts trying to
integrate a 4th of July parade.
Like again, nothing is smallenough for them not to be awful
about it.
You know, like just all of thethings Yeah.
There were other stories tooabout how they were
Mandy (16:10):
were
katy (16:10):
that
Mandy (16:11):
frustrated
katy (16:11):
attended
Mandy (16:12):
attended.
katy (16:13):
hosted a dance where
Mandy (16:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy (16:16):
interracial dancing and
people were really mad about
that.
And it was
Mandy (16:20):
And it was all kind of
this idea like telling
katy (16:22):
way, all
Mandy (16:24):
we'll all be integrated
and
katy (16:26):
she has gone
Mandy (16:27):
had gone way too far away
katy (16:29):
to the
Mandy (16:29):
letters to the editor
about this.
They're writing articles aboutthis.
katy (16:32):
are
Mandy (16:32):
They also are then
suggesting like probably they
probably want to have sex.
katy (16:39):
men.
And
Mandy (16:40):
Oh yeah.
Like the personal place thatthey took these attacks against
her and her family was just,Ima, I mean, they questioned
like her relationship with FDRand like their marriage might
must not have been good, like,because, and then she must have
wanted to have sex with blackmen, and then they must have
wanted, like, her sons to marryblack women.
(17:02):
I mean, it's just the, thenastiness that it turned into at
that point in time was justshocking.
But not shocking in a way.
I mean,
katy (17:12):
isn't Eleanor Roosevelt
also now people look back and
they're like, oh, she's probablylesbian.
So I'm like,
Mandy (17:16):
yeah,
katy (17:17):
they
Mandy (17:17):
like they were wrong.
Like they were very wrong
katy (17:20):
had
Mandy (17:20):
if only they had known,
you know?
katy (17:22):
I think that it is like
this, it just keeps boiling down
to white women protecting whitesupremacy in the most
Mandy (17:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:31):
ways, like
Mandy (17:33):
Yeah.
katy (17:33):
relationships,
friendships, eating.
having sex with
Mandy (17:37):
Having sex.
katy (17:38):
just
Mandy (17:38):
Like she's, she's
monitoring all of those domestic
and
katy (17:42):
so
Mandy (17:43):
so carefully and just
really
katy (17:46):
so,
Mandy (17:47):
so,
katy (17:48):
angry
Mandy (17:48):
angry about it.
katy (17:50):
There was one
Mandy (17:51):
was one part here where
Elizabeth
katy (17:53):
is
Mandy (17:54):
talking
katy (17:54):
specifically about
Mandy (17:55):
specifically about how
this mother thing
katy (17:57):
for
Mandy (17:57):
and that for these,
katy (17:59):
good
Mandy (17:59):
for good white others,
katy (18:01):
their job was
Mandy (18:02):
that their job was to
katy (18:03):
who
Mandy (18:03):
children to maintain
appropriate racial dis
katy (18:05):
taught a
Mandy (18:06):
show the schools of
curriculum in line with white
supremacy politics told storiesare educated the larger public
on the natural myth of racialsegregation.
katy (18:12):
it cannot be
Mandy (18:13):
And it cannot be defined
katy (18:14):
It
Mandy (18:15):
by the, it came to be,
excuse me, defined by the same
complicated rules, except thatwhite mothers had to guarantee
that their children weren't in,adhere to the land who were
segregation.
katy (18:24):
And if they did
Mandy (18:25):
And if they did not
follow segregated
katy (18:27):
threatening
Mandy (18:27):
ation, they're
threatening without raising of
white supremacy.
So this how, again, like allthese things that maybe seen.
katy (18:33):
smaller,
Mandy (18:34):
Smaller, even
insignificant all of a sudden.
Mm-hmm.
katy (18:37):
but it's,
Mandy (18:38):
But it's, it's that,
katy (18:40):
they're
Mandy (18:40):
that they're monitoring
katy (18:41):
really
Mandy (18:42):
all
katy (18:42):
things with and just using
Mandy (18:44):
just using all their
power to
katy (18:45):
call her
Mandy (18:46):
call her out.
katy (18:47):
that I
Mandy (18:47):
The part that I got was,
and some of
katy (18:50):
the,
Mandy (18:51):
the,
katy (18:51):
of the times
Mandy (18:52):
all of the times that
they used the
katy (18:54):
oh, my
Mandy (18:55):
like, oh, my black
friend, oh my gosh.
katy (18:57):
like
Mandy (18:58):
Yeah.
katy (18:58):
like, no, none of the
black people I know like are
saying anything,
Mandy (19:03):
saying anything.
So
katy (19:04):
with
Mandy (19:04):
they must be fine with
it.
katy (19:06):
ways that they, these
white women that we've been
learning about
Mandy (19:09):
That we've been learning
about black,
katy (19:10):
to use, like
Mandy (19:12):
like, like process
katy (19:14):
any black people in their
lives as justification for white
supremacy was especially gross.
I don't know
Mandy (19:19):
gross.
Yeah.
katy (19:20):
or stories that
Mandy (19:22):
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
All of those same things forsure.
She says like, kind of alludingto that.
Part about them talking abouttheir black friends and all the
black people.
They, I mean, I say friends inquotes.
That's like the people thatworked for them and their, A lot
of
katy (19:37):
black
Mandy (19:37):
Yeah.
katy (19:38):
I, I'm sure right?
Mandy (19:40):
Yeah.
No.
katy (19:41):
Uhhuh.
Mandy (19:42):
but she says that like
these, this southern whites were
nowhere near ready to admit thatblack southerners were
disaffected with the South'sracial hierarchy.
And so they turned their angertowards the Democratic party and
towards Eleanor Roosevelt And
katy (19:58):
her for lynching.
Mandy (19:59):
blamed her.
katy (20:00):
mind.
Like
Mandy (20:01):
Yeah.
katy (20:01):
massive race riots that
were horrifying, terrifying acts
of racial
Mandy (20:05):
Acts of racial
katy (20:06):
and lynching on the rise.
Mandy (20:08):
on the ride
katy (20:08):
white women came out and
Mandy (20:10):
came out and
katy (20:12):
blamed Eleanor Roosevelt
said, it's her
Mandy (20:14):
Yeah.
katy (20:15):
she's drumming people up.
She's making people
Mandy (20:18):
People.
katy (20:19):
like, it's
Mandy (20:20):
Yeah,
katy (20:20):
don't even
Mandy (20:21):
they don't wanna,
katy (20:22):
about
Mandy (20:22):
yep.
Yeah.
Mary Dawson Kane, who's one ofthe women we learned about
earlier, published an openletter to Eleanor Roosevelt,
blaming her for three brutallynchings of two black teenage
boys and a Laurel, Mississippifarmer.
They called her the ringleaderof racial agitation, basically
(20:43):
saying like, if you wouldn't goand intermingle and spend time
with these people, they would becontent in their place, is
really how they saw it.
They're like, you're making themdiscontented,
katy (20:54):
right.
Mandy (20:55):
is making them then fight
for rights, which then we must
answer with lynchings and VA andviolence.
So this is your fault forbasically agreeing that they
could rise above anything
katy (21:10):
Or even encouraging
Mandy (21:11):
except for where we put
them.
katy (21:13):
bagger, s scally, wag, put
these ideas into their head.
You, Northern
Mandy (21:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:17):
like they
Mandy (21:18):
Yep.
katy (21:18):
wanted this or
Mandy (21:19):
Wanted
katy (21:19):
and like, I don't wanna
Mandy (21:20):
and like, I don't wanna
pretend that
katy (21:21):
be Candace Owens in the
Mandy (21:24):
Owens in the 1940s.
Right.
katy (21:26):
Like I'm sure there were
no, again, like no group is
monolithic, but you cannot tell
Mandy (21:31):
you cannot
katy (21:31):
living under the
Mandy (21:33):
under the threat of,
katy (21:35):
violence have their
Mandy (21:37):
have their employer
katy (21:38):
and say, do you want this?
Like,
Mandy (21:40):
say like
katy (21:40):
do you think
Mandy (21:41):
what kind.
katy (21:41):
Like they're not going
Mandy (21:42):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:43):
your fa, are you kidding
me?
Like, it's just so obvious why
Mandy (21:46):
Why
katy (21:47):
be
Mandy (21:47):
people would be silent or
would be less,
katy (21:50):
in their agreement or
whatever, you
Mandy (21:53):
whatever.
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:54):
even in themselves, like,
be afraid of those changes
because they're
Mandy (21:57):
They're,
katy (21:58):
Like, all of those
Mandy (21:59):
all of those things are,
katy (22:00):
And,
Mandy (22:01):
yeah.
katy (22:01):
of those things endorse
white supremacy as a system at
all.
Mandy (22:05):
Yep.
Yep.
katy (22:06):
the
Mandy (22:06):
Yeah.
katy (22:07):
thought was especially
intriguing with this, which the
woman writing this book,Elizabeth Gillespie Mc Gray,
mentioned several times,
Mandy (22:15):
Several times is that
katy (22:16):
up of Eleanor Roosevelt as
the, the like devil
Mandy (22:20):
devil incarnate?
Mm-hmm.
katy (22:22):
traditions.
not only
Mandy (22:25):
only
katy (22:25):
kind of
Mandy (22:26):
that kind of,
katy (22:27):
Blame to put on her, but
doing that actually
Mandy (22:30):
that actually,
katy (22:31):
these black
Mandy (22:32):
yes.
Yes.
katy (22:32):
and like took agency away
and, and
Mandy (22:36):
And, and turn black
people into objects
katy (22:39):
they are
Mandy (22:39):
because they're still
katy (22:41):
white people
Mandy (22:41):
white people are
katy (22:43):
who
Mandy (22:43):
the only people who are
acting.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (22:45):
are the subjects who just
kind of sit there while we
battle it out.
And so the
Mandy (22:51):
Yeah.
katy (22:51):
all this black leadership,
all this work all of this
activism, like it's, it's just acomplete erasure.
I don't know how else to
Mandy (22:58):
Yeah.
And then away as she says this,like exactly what you're saying.
On one 17, which I hadunderlined and starred, it said,
in blaming Eleanor, white,Southern women diminished the
validity of black protest, tookaway black initiated violence as
a political strategy andelevated the role white women
played in a segregated nation.
So again, just this focus, evenin, for someone who was being
(23:25):
more progressive, it again takesthe focus and puts it back on
white people and white womenspecifically in this.
And yeah, I, I, it was anotherone where I was just like, oh,
yet another angle that I hadnever considered embarrassingly
katy (23:40):
And it is
Mandy (23:41):
just not
katy (23:42):
oh, this is like an, like
a double chocolate ice cream
cone that's dipped in chocolate
Mandy (23:47):
Chocolate.
Mm-hmm.
katy (23:48):
not
Mandy (23:48):
Mm-hmm.
Not only are they.
katy (23:50):
racism, but in the way
that they're choosing to blame
and even
Mandy (23:55):
People and even who they
set up as their going itself.
Also, it's like
katy (23:59):
many
Mandy (24:00):
just too many levels of
racism.
katy (24:01):
to bleed.
You know?
I
Mandy (24:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy (24:04):
was in my scrolling on
YouTube when I'm VEing out at
night just staring off intospace, I had just watched this
video, that was superinteresting
Mandy (24:14):
interesting about our
katy (24:16):
and the way that
Mandy (24:17):
and the way that open,
katy (24:18):
like open
Mandy (24:19):
like open concept.
katy (24:21):
Are connected to white
supremacy.
And I was like, I'm listening.
Mandy (24:26):
Yeah.
katy (24:27):
it
Mandy (24:27):
What, tell me
katy (24:28):
to
Mandy (24:28):
It was connected to
racism
katy (24:29):
and so it
Mandy (24:30):
and so it all connects at
once.
Page one 50
katy (24:34):
The author is talking
Mandy (24:35):
author talking about how
it wasn't the patient developer
Roosevelt, but also they
katy (24:38):
These white women got
interested in labor policies
Mandy (24:41):
mm-hmm.
katy (24:42):
were really opposed to
labor
Mandy (24:45):
labor rights and.
katy (24:47):
and, you know, started to
Mandy (24:48):
You know, started to
label
katy (24:49):
agitators or whatever.
They were
Mandy (24:51):
whatever.
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:52):
labor unrest or work to
protect workers.
And they,
Mandy (24:56):
And they
katy (24:57):
about
Mandy (24:57):
it talks about how some
white women complain that
domestic service
katy (25:01):
the promise of better jobs
to
Mandy (25:02):
better.
katy (25:03):
and west.
And this
Mandy (25:05):
And this then
katy (25:05):
connected to this
Mandy (25:06):
connected with the video
watch, which you talks about how
in the early 19 hundreds, floorplans were middle class, one
katy (25:13):
always had
Mandy (25:14):
always had surface
orders,
katy (25:15):
the
Mandy (25:16):
and all the, were very
distinct
katy (25:18):
were
Mandy (25:18):
were
katy (25:19):
the workspaces
Mandy (25:20):
work faces were the,
katy (25:21):
they
Mandy (25:22):
and they
katy (25:22):
hazards
Mandy (25:23):
were fire hazards,
katy (25:23):
and
Mandy (25:24):
smelling, whatever.
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:26):
contained in their own
space, maybe even in the
basement, but like off in theirown space.
Mandy (25:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:32):
there were domestic
servants quarters, but as in
this era, like
Mandy (25:37):
Era.
katy (25:38):
like 1940s and the even
before that, like the great
migration north, that as thereare more
Mandy (25:44):
There are more
opportunities, members
katy (25:47):
for
Mandy (25:47):
of communities, for
people
katy (25:48):
efforts.
Mandy (25:49):
efforts and
katy (25:50):
are
Mandy (25:51):
there are big
katy (25:52):
unions and there is
Mandy (25:54):
and
katy (25:54):
opportunity, that those
Mandy (25:56):
that those,
katy (25:57):
all women of color.
And so that.
Mandy (25:59):
and so that
katy (26:01):
like servant base kind of
Mandy (26:02):
based
katy (26:04):
And the
Mandy (26:04):
and, and the response
katy (26:06):
to just
Mandy (26:06):
was
katy (26:07):
okay,
Mandy (26:07):
like, okay, white woman,
I guess it's your job now.
katy (26:10):
things.
And so
Mandy (26:12):
And so
katy (26:12):
wanted to still be
connected to their family
Mandy (26:15):
their,
katy (26:15):
aren't the servant.
And hence the open floor planwas now to have like, because
the,
Mandy (26:21):
because
katy (26:21):
wife and mother no longer
Mandy (26:24):
longer is exploiting the
labor of women of color in her
household.
katy (26:28):
to be
Mandy (26:29):
He wants
katy (26:29):
of the family.
Mandy (26:30):
of family
katy (26:31):
to like 1950s and sixties
open floor plan concepts, which
like continue today to be likethe thing.
And there's other parts of it
Mandy (26:39):
yeah.
katy (26:40):
The ways that people
socialized and a
Mandy (26:43):
And
katy (26:43):
living
Mandy (26:43):
that formal living room
katy (26:44):
sense.
So
Mandy (26:45):
longer sense.
katy (26:46):
of
Mandy (26:46):
You know, a lot of
factors, but one of the factors
katy (26:49):
to this exact issue.
And it's basically
Mandy (26:53):
basically like
katy (26:54):
A physical
Mandy (26:55):
physical manifestation of
katy (26:58):
especially
Mandy (26:58):
especially for
katy (26:59):
upper class women to
Mandy (27:00):
women.
katy (27:01):
like white middle class
women in
Mandy (27:03):
Women,
katy (27:03):
they don't have the money
for servants
Mandy (27:07):
Yeah.
katy (27:07):
do all this labor that's
expected of them, but still be
part of the family.
Isn't that fascinating
Mandy (27:12):
Hmm.
That is fascinating.
katy (27:13):
disturbing,
Mandy (27:14):
so many of these things
that like, I think I definitely
haven't thought of, so that Iknow that probably a lot of
people don't think about either.
And then when you connect thedots, you just see how deeply
entrenched it all it is.
Like when people don'tunderstand what systemic racism
is, they think racism's overbecause you know, we no longer.
(27:37):
We'll use the n word in public,you know, like that's we're we
had a black president.
We, yeah.
Like it's over.
Like, my, my child has a blackfriend.
There's no such thing as racismanymore.
You know, it's like, no, thesethings are so systemically
ingrained in every single partof our society.
I mean, this, this chapter didnothing to help my hatred of
(27:59):
state's rights as an argumentfor things.
'cause I was like, see, I wasright.
I've always been right.
Like the state's rights bullshitand this like distrust of the
federal government and this notwanting, she talks on page one
17 too, about this wedge thatfederal aid.
Posed to states they did notwant to accept federal aid
(28:24):
because they saw, like, it comeswith strings.
Like, if we accept this aid,then they're going to be able to
tell us how to use it.
And so we're not gonna do itbecause we can see what's coming
down the road from this.
And this is still continued.
It's like why I could, I can'tunderstand, like the states that
(28:45):
don't accept the Medicaidexpansions, you know, like how,
how would you not take money forhealthcare to decrease the costs
for people in your state?
It's all connected back to this.
It's because they don't want thestrings that are attached to it
because they wanna continuedoing the, you know, racist,
(29:07):
exploitative bullshit kind ofthings.
And they can't do that when thefederal, federal government gets
involved.
katy (29:14):
right.
Mandy (29:14):
And so they would rather.
Decline any sort of assistanceso that they continue doing
things their way than to acceptthe federal aid and have to take
what comes along with it, whichis
katy (29:26):
Before we,
Mandy (29:27):
before we I.
katy (29:28):
into the federal aid side
of things as the other thing
that these women really caredabout at this time and still
continue to care about.
There were so many things that Iwas like, oh, today, today,
today, today.
Circling throughout.
I just wanted to note withEleanor Roosevelt and thinking
about first ladies who becomelightning rods for defenders of
white supremacy, and I wouldlove us to do another kind of
(29:51):
set of episodes or mini episodesor whatever, about Michelle
Obama became that for the, andjust what she had to endure or
the, the vitriol aimed at her.
And
Mandy (30:03):
And
katy (30:04):
been fascinated, and
again, I need to dive into just
the ways that
Mandy (30:08):
that.
katy (30:08):
same people who lost their
goddamn minds, like every day.
It's about something related toMichelle Obama.
Have nothing to say aboutMelania Trump.
Like I, you know, just how likewhat, what that hatred and what
that criticism was stemmingfrom.
Mandy (30:24):
Well, and
katy (30:26):
it, I just, I'm so
curious.
Mandy (30:27):
I'm so curious, like
their, their anti
katy (30:30):
is not applied
Mandy (30:31):
not slide.
katy (30:32):
herself is an immigrant.
Like, I just have so
Mandy (30:34):
Like, I just have so many
questions for like, the ways
that
katy (30:38):
there's pictures of her
posing nude on a bare skinned
rug, and it's like
Mandy (30:41):
and mm-hmm.
katy (30:43):
that
Mandy (30:43):
That
katy (30:44):
has escaped any of the
standards or any of the things
that they care about and
Mandy (30:49):
care about and advocate
for and,
katy (30:50):
just unleashed on Michelle
Obama in this, like, what had to
have been horrific, totally
Mandy (30:56):
oh,
katy (30:57):
way.
Like I don't, I, the fact thatshe's like functioning
Mandy (31:01):
functioning.
katy (31:02):
and love and humor and
like all of that is just
Mandy (31:04):
All of that.
katy (31:05):
to me.
Mandy (31:05):
Yeah.
katy (31:06):
yeah.
I think that the, we need afirst ladies branch of this
podcast that just dives
Mandy (31:11):
Yeah.
Well, and the connection also tothe Maha movement, the Make
America healthy and, and how theutter shit show tantrum that
Republicans threw when MichelleObama tried to make school
lunches healthier and callingher a communist, and like saying
that she was taking away likeparental rights by trying to
(31:33):
make kids eat healthier.
And now they're acting likethey're some saviors of health
and like
katy (31:40):
Unbelievable.
Mandy (31:41):
Yeah.
The hypocrisy.
The hypocrisy.
katy (31:44):
Again, I don't, I don't
know how people who are involved
in those campaigns, like howthey, they don't just explode
from sheer frustration with thathypocrisy.
I don't get it.
But
Mandy (31:56):
Yeah.
katy (31:56):
into the, the federal aid
and federal regulations,
especially around labor,
Mandy (32:02):
Yeah,
katy (32:03):
exclusively.
Mandy (32:04):
It,
katy (32:04):
does just,
Mandy (32:05):
it does it
katy (32:05):
labor,
Mandy (32:06):
labor.
katy (32:07):
connected
Mandy (32:08):
so much connect with all
of this, like when people are
katy (32:10):
from
Mandy (32:10):
away from the work,
katy (32:12):
a
Mandy (32:12):
that's when a lot of
women,
katy (32:13):
white women
Mandy (32:14):
white women here and
katy (32:16):
workforce in
Mandy (32:17):
work,
katy (32:17):
that they had not been
before.
And that is
Mandy (32:20):
and that is one of those
katy (32:22):
pads for, you know,
additional waves of feminism was
having.
You know, different
Mandy (32:27):
different
katy (32:28):
opportunities
Mandy (32:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy (32:30):
was needed with men away
at war.
But then when you
Mandy (32:33):
But then when you have
those members,
katy (32:35):
and unions are
Mandy (32:36):
union
katy (32:36):
too, because there some
unions were advocating for
gender and racial equality, buta lot of other
Mandy (32:42):
a
katy (32:42):
were actually mouthpieces
for white supremacy and for
sexism to say, we're gonnaprotect jobs for white men
returning.
Mandy (32:49):
mm-hmm.
katy (32:49):
we don't want mixing in
the workplace because that will
lead to, again,
Mandy (32:53):
Again.
katy (32:54):
clutcher pearls, watch
out.
You like that being just thecore fear, God forbid
Mandy (33:00):
God forbid.
katy (33:00):
interracial
Mandy (33:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
katy (33:03):
there's just a
Mandy (33:03):
Yeah.
And the war, the, yeah.
And the whole wartime effortsand the need for labor at that
time, which then gave the baseof people who were laboring some
power to unionize and to makedemands, which then was met by
all of this hysterics fromSoutherners who were just like,
(33:24):
how dare you demand 5 cents morean hour when our white sons are
off fighting this war?
They saw it as like antipatriotic
katy (33:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (33:35):
support labor in any sort
of way.
And FDR, it seems from what theywas in this chapter, was more of
support of laborers,
katy (33:45):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (33:46):
just gave them another
reason to be angry at him.
So they talk about like somespecific strikes in the coal
industry,
katy (33:56):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (33:57):
and about the war, like a
bill that came out after that
called the Smith Connolly WarLabor Disputes Bill, which
basically granted the presidentthe power to like seize any sort
of industrial plant in wartimeand to outlaw strikes in those
industries.
(34:18):
And also to ban politicalcontributions by labor unions,
which that part Yeah.
Maybe not such a bad idea givenYeah.
You
katy (34:26):
Like money and
Mandy (34:27):
know,
katy (34:27):
is a whole other
Mandy (34:28):
Uhhuh.
katy (34:28):
too.
Mandy (34:29):
Yeah.
And Roosevelt actually, that wasa bill that he vetoed because it
took power away from workers andthen Congress overrode his veto
pretty immediately after that.
So this is just setting up moreof that.
Discontent that southern depeople who had always consider
(34:50):
themselves southern Democratshad with FDR, with the new deal,
with like this new kind ofchange in the Democratic party.
And one more thing that theywere just pissed off about
because they saw it as an attackon their way of life, but also
on their white husbands andwhite sons who are out fighting
and not being supportive ofthem.
(35:11):
And then fear for what rolesthey would have when they came
back from the war too.
Well
katy (35:15):
and it's laying the
groundwork
Mandy (35:16):
the ground.
katy (35:16):
the Cold War because it's
also very anti-communist, you
know?
And,
Mandy (35:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (35:20):
connecting communist
support to civil rights support,
to
Mandy (35:24):
Support
katy (35:25):
like connecting all these
dots and then being
Mandy (35:28):
and being against all of
them.
And it was,
katy (35:31):
I wrote in the margins
that this is just such circular
logic because there was thisidea that this is gosh, I can't
think of her first name.
Ogden is her last name that
Mandy (35:41):
oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
katy (35:42):
She has this weekly column
called
Mandy (35:46):
Called my dear.
Oh my gosh,
katy (35:48):
I thought
Mandy (35:49):
yes.
katy (35:49):
weird.
And
Mandy (35:50):
Weird.
And she
katy (35:51):
she, to remedy the
Mandy (35:53):
the remedy
katy (35:53):
of soldiers, she sent
pictures of black laborers
picking cotton and whitechildren
Mandy (35:58):
and white
katy (35:58):
the
Mandy (35:59):
on the
katy (35:59):
reminders of a system of
white over black.
And basically promising the boysthat when they come home,
everything's gonna be exactlythe same, and don't worry, like
we're holding the fort down.
Mandy (36:09):
Yes.
katy (36:09):
I thought this idea that
she was acting as a composite
mother and presenting herself
Mandy (36:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:15):
of all these white boys
who were away from the
Mandy (36:17):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:18):
and, you know, she would
write about black soldiers, but
in super disparaging ways,
Mandy (36:22):
Yes.
That part was so gross
katy (36:25):
they wouldn't, didn't
Mandy (36:27):
wouldn't.
katy (36:27):
a test or had to come home
for some reason.
Like what?
A, just,
Mandy (36:30):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:30):
sucks.
Okay.
So,
Mandy (36:32):
Yeah,
katy (36:32):
I
Mandy (36:32):
she was terrible.
katy (36:33):
Of snarky line.
I would love to ask ElizabethDeloy, meck Ray, just how you
write about things a, like howdo you keep.
snarkiness out, but sometimes Ithink it comes in a little bit,
she says, with little concernfor actual facts.
Ogden argued that union memberswere simply not real Americans
and they couldn't help it.
For love of country is bred intopeople, and that was her logic
(36:58):
is that strikes were proof thatthose are people with
Mandy (37:02):
People
katy (37:02):
pride and inferior ethnic
background and
Mandy (37:04):
background and that all
katy (37:06):
therefore
Mandy (37:06):
together.
So
katy (37:07):
Americans.
And
Mandy (37:08):
yes,
katy (37:09):
I turn on the news
anymore, like this is
Mandy (37:11):
it's the same.
Mm-hmm.
katy (37:12):
are arguing for, like
Mandy (37:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (37:15):
citizenship, why they're,
why they're deporting citizens
and saying like, eh, no, they'renot
Mandy (37:19):
They're not really,
they're not married.
katy (37:21):
just
Mandy (37:22):
Yeah.
katy (37:22):
it, it's still so, so deep
and so current.
There was another part.
is the other Nelly, the other,the other bat.
Nelly, Nelly Nugent, Somerville,which I pictured her as
Mandy (37:34):
Mm-hmm.
katy (37:35):
of Ted Nugent.
Who knows if that's real, butthat's my mind what I
Mandy (37:39):
Let's just go with it.
katy (37:40):
But she, she was arguing
that the Constitution created a
republic, not a democracy, andtherefore not every voice had to
be heard.
And it was like, oh my God.
Mandy (37:51):
Wild.
katy (37:51):
it's just so These
arguments have never gone away.
And they, you know, like I thinkthis
Mandy (37:57):
Like, I think
katy (37:58):
it connected to this,
know, the upheaval of the war
and of this push for civilrights and, you know, the, this
like the
Mandy (38:10):
like the nexus of gender,
sex,
katy (38:13):
all of it race
Mandy (38:13):
all of it.
Race class.
katy (38:15):
there's this.
Mandy (38:16):
when there's this
katy (38:17):
of
Mandy (38:17):
mix of things that, and
katy (38:19):
Just
Mandy (38:19):
is happening
katy (38:20):
these people come out of
the woodwork and the, the more
Mandy (38:23):
the, and.
katy (38:24):
and direct they get with
what
Mandy (38:26):
Mm-hmm.
katy (38:26):
for, and we hear all of
the same things today.
Mandy (38:29):
Same arguments.
Yeah.
So Ogden and one of her columnswrote that this anti-immigrant
sentiment that it comes out,that love of country is bred
into peoples and the industrialworkers, which she described as
Eastern European immigrants,lacked the most basic
qualification for Americancitizenship whiteness.
She said most of them have comehere within the last 30 years,
(38:51):
and while many of them havelived in this country and
enjoyed its freedom, they cannotlove it as we do who are born
here.
katy (38:57):
So gross.
And not even
Mandy (38:59):
Ugh.
katy (38:59):
born here, but white
people, specifically white
Mandy (39:02):
Yeah.
katy (39:02):
it's just so, it, it,
again, it's just this circular
logic like, oh, because whiteChristian people are the reason
this exists.
They're the only ones who canlove it.
It's like all of that is wrong.
Like, it's not
Mandy (39:12):
Mm-hmm.
katy (39:14):
like it, and yet it, it
just becomes this engine of
policy and actions and it justfeeds itself over and over and
over again.
Like it's just what ah, it's sofrustrating.
Mandy (39:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and the part of the, oneof the things I underlined from
this Nelly Nugent summer rulescolumn that she wrote that I was
like, well, she's not wrong.
It's just that this wholepractice is wrong.
She says, from the earliesttimes in this republic, the
exercise of the electionfranchise has been protected by
(39:47):
qualifications and restrictions.
katy (39:50):
Right.
That is factual.
Mandy (39:51):
But also, but also
terrible.
So
katy (39:54):
Right?
Like not something we arecelebrating.
Or in my, this was me beingsnarky was like, great.
Can't wait for thequalifications to be like, no
assholes.
Like no
Mandy (40:05):
yeah.
katy (40:05):
sexist, transphobic,
assholes can vote anymore.
Like, great.
You know?
But that to
Mandy (40:10):
Yeah.
katy (40:10):
just like the, the power
of democracy, which hinges upon
the, for democracy to work well,people have to give a shit about
each other and they have to beinformed.
Like those,
Mandy (40:26):
Yeah.
katy (40:27):
really important key
components to a democracy
working well.
And I
Mandy (40:33):
Yes.
Yep.
katy (40:34):
to say next, like, we
don't, a, a significant portion
of people are neither, neither
Mandy (40:40):
Right, right.
katy (40:41):
no.
So
Mandy (40:42):
And this is the part that
I have like struggled with in
thinking about things like thetests, like the reading tests,
the, you know, like things, thepoll, taxes, all of that, and
like, yes, obviously these werestructured in a way to very
explicitly exclude black peoplefrom being able to vote.
On the other hand, I think wemight need some sort of an
(41:05):
informed test.
Like, do you know anything aboutwhat you're voting for?
Do you understand this in anysort of way before you just
check yes or no because yourneighbor had a sign or your
pastor told you to, or yourgrandmother's always taught
this, like is there some way toenforce some sort of
katy (41:28):
no.
I mean,
Mandy (41:29):
education?
katy (41:30):
that's it.
Like, no, I think we have
Mandy (41:32):
Think,
katy (41:33):
do our best to strive for
it.
It's one of the reasons I careabout education so much is not
so that everybody, the studentI've ever had agrees with me.
You know, that's not the point.
It's just to help them care
Mandy (41:43):
help them care about each
other first and foremost,
katy (41:45):
then help
Mandy (41:46):
and then help them value
katy (41:48):
seek out and
Mandy (41:49):
and speak out
katy (41:50):
how
Mandy (41:50):
and know how access
information
katy (41:53):
could even have the same
exact set of values and
Mandy (41:55):
set
katy (41:55):
to
Mandy (41:56):
and still
katy (41:56):
I mean, I think we see
that through history all the
time where
Mandy (41:59):
all time.
Mm-hmm.
katy (42:00):
the same things but, and
want the same outcomes, but have
different ideas about
Mandy (42:03):
Different
katy (42:04):
people are always
Mandy (42:05):
people are always gonna
disagree.
That's okay.
Yeah.
katy (42:07):
think like I.
You know, I can understand thatdesire to have some sort of
threshold, but I, I
Mandy (42:14):
But I, I just think like
the.
katy (42:15):
it's too much power.
It's too much power for someoneto have to say, I get to be the
decider about who knows enoughand who doesn't.
Like, that's just asking forcorruption to happen.
So it's like we just have tokeep it open, do our absolute
best to care about each
Mandy (42:31):
Care about each other and
be informed
katy (42:34):
for the best.
Like,
Mandy (42:34):
for the best.
Like, I,
katy (42:35):
don't think
Mandy (42:36):
I don't, I,
katy (42:36):
behind'cause it's just, I
wouldn't trust anybody to do a
good job of
Mandy (42:40):
no, no, it's always, it's
always gonna go off the rails,
but I still think like our bestis not great right now.
Like
katy (42:49):
there's,
Mandy (42:49):
it's,
katy (42:50):
I used to assign
Mandy (42:52):
real sad
katy (42:53):
An opinion piece that was
out years ago about not having
Mandy (42:57):
not having,
katy (42:58):
voting age.
Just like literally, literallyletting anybody vote, like
anyone who's a citizen.
And your first reaction might belike, that's insane.
And
Mandy (43:06):
mm-hmm.
katy (43:06):
the article, I was like,
actually, these are really great
arguments.
And honestly, like I
Mandy (43:11):
Honestly, like, are my
teacher for it, you know,
katy (43:13):
about the children who I
Mandy (43:16):
I,
katy (43:17):
and
Mandy (43:17):
and their ability to call
katy (43:19):
pretty
Mandy (43:20):
out is pretty great.
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:21):
I don't know, I, except
for these two 12-year-old
Mandy (43:24):
But then I also,
katy (43:24):
on
Mandy (43:25):
oh, yes.
katy (43:26):
they're like, dear Mrs.
Roosevelt, we're pissed.
We're, we're in fifth grade andwe hate you.
And like, we, you're bad.
I thought, oh
Mandy (43:33):
Yeah, that was on page
one 14 where these girls wrote
their letter and I loved their,their opening line.
I usually do all my own thinkingwhat I think.
Yeah.
But I am not able to put intowords what I think about these,
this dance that she hosted wherethat was like,
katy (43:52):
that you let people dance
together.
I don't know.
It's,
Mandy (43:55):
yeah, it's too hard.
Again, it's hard.
And, and I recently, thisreminds me kind of a tangent,
but recently of a video I saw onInstagram of now these men who
are openly advocating forrepealing the 19th Amendment.
katy (44:10):
It's like, it's so
Mandy (44:12):
And so
katy (44:12):
It's so
Mandy (44:13):
Yeah.
katy (44:14):
Yes.
Mandy (44:15):
But not, but not
completely.
They just want, they want theirwives.
Vote votes, but they, they wantto control them.
They're like, we should, theyshould still have a vote, but we
get to cast it basically, iswhat they're saying.
And it's the same thing if you,with the, you know, whatever, no
age limit that I see that samething happening with like, sure,
(44:36):
well, kids can vote, we have 18of them, and so we're gonna like
katy (44:40):
right.
Like they're all coming with us.
Mandy (44:43):
Yep.
And we're gonna tell'em exactlywhat they do, you know?
katy (44:46):
but it,
Mandy (44:47):
Yeah.
katy (44:47):
that though, it is like
arbitrary line that gets drawn,
like, oh, you're 18 or you're21, or whatever, you know, and
it goes, but like, it just, it,any restriction comes with
baggage, I guess is my
Mandy (44:58):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy (45:00):
like
Mandy (45:00):
But it's like,
katy (45:01):
too, so Yes, absolutely.
Mandy (45:03):
yes.
Yeah.
katy (45:04):
intentionally having 27
kids to, you know, further the
apocalypse or whatever the logicis.
I don't
Mandy (45:10):
Well, and this is the,
the next part that I had
highlighted in this chapterabout how things go both ways.
So there was, you know, this Ms.
Ogden who was writing her MyDear Boys column, supporting
these soldiers and all of this
katy (45:24):
by the way.
Where's this
Mandy (45:26):
by the
katy (45:26):
She called it a
Mandy (45:27):
lotions of love.
katy (45:29):
was
Mandy (45:30):
of Love.
What does that mean?
katy (45:33):
and I had a lot of
questions about
Mandy (45:36):
Lotions of love.
I don't even understand.
katy (45:39):
this column, but go ahead.
Mandy (45:41):
Yeah.
But despite her, like supposedsupport for soldiers, she did
not support the Soldier VotingAct,
katy (45:52):
Right.
Mandy (45:53):
which was basically
saying that these soldiers who
were serving could cast theirvotes even when they were not at
home.
And she was against that becausewhat that meant is that black
soldiers could also vote
katy (46:08):
Right,
Mandy (46:08):
they would be able to do
it separated from these southern
institutions that intimidatedthem out of voting.
katy (46:16):
That's
Mandy (46:16):
And
katy (46:17):
Yep.
Mandy (46:18):
they did not want that to
happen.
They didn't want themrepresented, and they were so
willing to push to keep themfrom being represented that they
were willing to take the voteaway from their own white sons,
their own husbands, their ownwhatever.
Because anything to keep thevote away from black people
again,
katy (46:38):
Yes.
It's chilling.
Mandy (46:39):
the cartwheels, the
gymnastics, the craziness that
you have to go through toconvince yourself that you're
doing the right thing in all ofthis.
I can't, I can't.
katy (46:50):
and I think we're moving
into like, especially thinking
about the 1940s, there arealready some, some pretty
significant.
desegregation cases that havebeen happening.
But of
Mandy (47:02):
Happening, but of course.
katy (47:03):
of those cases is 1954
Brown v.
Board of Education.
So I feel like
Mandy (47:07):
So I feel like we're,
we're kind of to
katy (47:10):
involvement
Mandy (47:11):
women's involvement in
back against this and again,
katy (47:14):
lotion
Mandy (47:15):
down to lotion model to
katy (47:16):
speeches.
And she was just constantlyspeaking to mothers, really,
specifically white mothers, andappealing to them to think about
you and your children
Mandy (47:27):
and
katy (47:27):
children to fight what she
called ization.
It's just so fucking disgusting.
And then she's pulling fromeugenics to say, segregation
comes
Mandy (47:38):
Segregation.
katy (47:38):
from our ancestors.
Race preservation is selfpreservation.
I feel like.
Andrew Schultz or any of theselike podcast bros are just like
jizzing everywhere when theyhear this history, like, yes.
She's saying of her ancestors,I'm glad mine were white and
American.
I know every woman around thistable is proud of her ancestors
who gave us America.
Again, it's like
Mandy (47:57):
It's like
katy (47:58):
you invent this myth
Mandy (48:00):
invented
katy (48:01):
your
Mandy (48:02):
your
katy (48:02):
advocacy.
Like you, you
Mandy (48:03):
mm-hmm.
katy (48:04):
that then cycles back on
itself to promote that thing
that relies on that thing andit's
Mandy (48:09):
Thing
katy (48:09):
But she says our most
dangerous and
Mandy (48:11):
The.
katy (48:11):
reaching threat facing
Americans in 1948 is the threat
to the white race.
If science or history did notsatisfy her audience, she
asserted that segregation
Mandy (48:19):
Segregates,
katy (48:20):
planned it.
And I still think he is a betterplanner than President Truman in
his civil rights committee, oreven Mrs.
Roosevelt
Mandy (48:27):
thank you.
Seriously.
And somebody, okay, I've gottafind where I underline this, but
somebody then I think quotingthat article said that like her
article should be, you know,basically published nationally
and it was the second only tothe Bible
katy (48:45):
geez.
Mandy (48:45):
in the sense that she
made and the truth that she
spoke.
And I, I can't see where Iunderlined that, but somewhere
in there I was like, oh, vomitall over the place.
Like, just
katy (48:57):
Yeah,
Mandy (48:58):
terrible.
katy (48:58):
well
Mandy (48:59):
The,
katy (48:59):
ends here with the 1948
presidential election.
I
Mandy (49:02):
mm-hmm.
katy (49:03):
like, my Iowa History nerd
alarm was going off throughout
this chapter because it mentionsJohn L.
Lewis, who was a, a reallysignificant labor leader in all
those
Mandy (49:13):
In all those
katy (49:14):
white women were like
freaking out about.
He's from Iowa,
Mandy (49:17):
from
katy (49:17):
then Henry Wallace, who
was the candidate for the
Progressive party, also fromIowa,
Mandy (49:22):
From
katy (49:23):
was FDRs.
Vice president in his thirdterm, he'd also served as
Secretary of Agriculture.
And his stance even now
Mandy (49:31):
now,
katy (49:31):
to
Mandy (49:32):
it's hard.
katy (49:32):
and not think that would
be a fresh campaign today in the
year
Mandy (49:36):
Mm-hmm.
katy (49:37):
But
Mandy (49:38):
Mm-hmm.
katy (49:39):
I mean the softer
Mandy (49:40):
I mean,
katy (49:40):
Soviet Union is
complicated because Russia was
not like there's complicationsthere.
But
Mandy (49:45):
yeah.
katy (49:46):
platforms were explicitly
about
Mandy (49:50):
about brotherhood and non
segregation,
katy (49:52):
that he
Mandy (49:53):
that
katy (49:53):
a hard line
Mandy (49:54):
we had borderline demand
for racial
katy (49:55):
and was
Mandy (49:56):
inequality and was also a
great reporter of labor rights,
and it was just very
katy (50:00):
all of those
Mandy (50:01):
clear.
All of those things aligned.
And so it talks about how
katy (50:04):
about
Mandy (50:05):
the book talks about how.
katy (50:06):
candidacy was again, kind
of
Mandy (50:09):
again, kind of that
perfect lightning rod
katy (50:12):
all
Mandy (50:12):
galvanize all these
people together, which is
certainly
katy (50:14):
Wallace's intention, you
know, to
Mandy (50:16):
mm-hmm.
katy (50:17):
a.
Like a common
Mandy (50:19):
Common
katy (50:20):
enemy for
Mandy (50:21):
ending.
All people
katy (50:22):
around and
Mandy (50:23):
together around and say
like,
katy (50:24):
why
Mandy (50:25):
is why
katy (50:26):
all be
Mandy (50:27):
all,
katy (50:27):
or like, this is why we
all need to work together.
But they were able to
Mandy (50:30):
but they were able to
frame
katy (50:32):
him as
Mandy (50:33):
him as this
katy (50:34):
person
Mandy (50:34):
dangerous person
katy (50:35):
these
Mandy (50:35):
in all of these
categories, and so their
katy (50:39):
opposition could
Mandy (50:39):
opposition could become
explicitly anti, anti-black,
anti rights, anti, mm-hmm.
katy (50:46):
of those things.
And like holding gender,
Mandy (50:49):
Gender
katy (50:50):
talk about this, but this
is
Mandy (50:51):
about this.
This is also the beginning of,of
katy (50:54):
explicitly anti-gay,
Mandy (50:57):
gay
katy (50:57):
actions.
Like the lavender
Mandy (50:59):
la
katy (51:00):
is not too far away.
Like there
Mandy (51:02):
away.
There were.
katy (51:03):
of gay men
Mandy (51:05):
Gay men from the
government, like
katy (51:07):
of these
Mandy (51:07):
all these
katy (51:08):
together.
Mandy (51:09):
together.
Mm-hmm.
katy (51:10):
we, when we
Mandy (51:11):
And
katy (51:11):
about reproductive
justice, like there was, this
was also a lot of sterilizationlaws coming into play.
Like just that eugenics logic atthe heart of everything that
here's this candidate who comesalong, who's representing
opposite of
Mandy (51:25):
the opposite of all those
things.
And so it just help them and
katy (51:28):
combine
Mandy (51:28):
combine their class one.
Yeah.
katy (51:32):
you know.
Mandy (51:33):
Yeah.
So even if there were people whomight not have been on one side
of a labor issue or the otherside of the segregation issue,
they all felt like they had tocome together.
They all just got more power.
They saw they could defeat thesethings easier if they all did
come together and fight againstbasically any of these agendas
(51:55):
that
katy (51:55):
able to
Mandy (51:56):
they were.
katy (51:56):
we're out democratic
Mandy (51:58):
Yeah.
katy (51:58):
like, we're gone and we're
gonna pull all
Mandy (52:01):
Yeah.
katy (52:01):
like, we're going to, you
know,
Mandy (52:02):
All we're gonna do
katy (52:03):
And we mentioned this last
week was
Mandy (52:05):
was
katy (52:05):
white
Mandy (52:05):
the fact that white women
mm-hmm.
katy (52:15):
pull their men basically
Mandy (52:18):
basically
katy (52:19):
other
Mandy (52:19):
other
katy (52:20):
and
Mandy (52:20):
track
katy (52:21):
not,
Mandy (52:21):
say like, we're not,
we're not gonna be charged
katy (52:23):
anymore.
We're going to do our own thing.
Mandy (52:26):
our
katy (52:26):
to
Mandy (52:26):
own, we're gonna,
katy (52:27):
Republican party politics.
And that
Mandy (52:30):
and that
katy (52:31):
their, the era when that
Mandy (52:33):
era, when that.
katy (52:34):
women were super, super
influential in that and, and
recreating the.
landscape to one that's morefamiliar to us today.
Mandy (52:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I felt like this whole chapterwas, because we have said this,
we in the past we have alwayswondered like what happened to
the switch with the RepublicanDemocratic Party, the, you know,
Lincoln being the Republicanparty and now it have, having
different ideologies and I feltlike this chapter was the
answer.
Like, this is what happened.
(53:04):
It's very clear.
katy (53:05):
white women
Mandy (53:07):
women.
Yeah.
katy (53:08):
nooks and crannies of that
story.
Mandy (53:10):
Yeah.
katy (53:10):
the last thing I'll say,
just to set us up for the next
chapter, which is focused on JimCrow's International Enemies and
Nationwide Allies, that anotherpiece of what was pushing
changes at a faster
Mandy (53:24):
faster rate.
katy (53:25):
the international pressure
to desegregate and to.
More clearly delineate betweenthe United States and Nazi
Germany, you know, that therewere, there was a lot of
international condemnation ofwhat was happening in the United
States.
And it,
Mandy (53:42):
And I'm
katy (53:43):
we'll see when we get into
this chapter, but something else
that has always puzzled me inthis era that we're living in,
of the combination of issuesthat people really care about,
is there the like intensehostility towards the United
Nations and towards government.
And it's
Mandy (54:00):
Government, and now it
makes so much more sense.
It's like, oh.
katy (54:03):
government because of the
strings attached or the
commitments, then the UN is likefederal government on steroids
that has a declaration of humanrights and a declaration of
children's rights and adeclaration of Indigenous
rights.
It's like, well, yeah, of coursenot.
Like of course that's gonna beeven worse.
And why you're gonna care aboutthe UN and have all these
conspiracy theories and youknow, things that
Mandy (54:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy (54:24):
angry.
So yeah, just helping.
It's one of those things whereyou tilt all these issues one
way and they seem disconnectedand you, you just walk behind
the
Mandy (54:33):
Walk behind the scenes
and they're like, oh, they're
all plugged.
katy (54:35):
cord.
Like they're
Mandy (54:36):
Yeah, yeah,
katy (54:37):
fueled by the same thing.
Mandy (54:39):
yeah.
Right.
And I think in one way we'velooked at all of this history
and been discouraged that we'restill doing it again.
It's like, oh we,
katy (54:50):
Hmm.
Mandy (54:50):
this has never gone away.
This seems to be on repeat.
katy (54:54):
Right.
Mandy (54:54):
But on the other hand,
I'm also like, okay, this seems
like a pretty shitty time inhistory.
Some terrible stuff washappening, but we did come out
of it somewhat.
Obviously we know it went, neverwent away, but in ways we came
out of it and we made someprogress.
And hopefully that can alsohappen again.
(55:17):
I mean, hopefully there's somesort of, and maybe we can
katy (55:20):
It's so
Mandy (55:21):
learn the lessons of the
past to not
katy (55:25):
I have
Mandy (55:25):
continue in it.
katy (55:26):
I know
Mandy (55:27):
I know.
katy (55:27):
like the Pollyanna of our
partnership to try to say like,
don't despair.
But I, I have been thinking alot about unintended
consequences for better or forworse.
Like Henry Wallace is acandidate, like galvanizes these
people, you
Mandy (55:41):
Mm-hmm.
katy (55:42):
Eleanor Roosevelt, you
Mandy (55:43):
Roosevelt.
katy (55:44):
galvanized them, pissed
them off enough to
Mandy (55:46):
Mm-hmm.
katy (55:46):
than what they were doing.
And it's, so it's interesting tothink about like, what are the
tactics, what are thestrategies, what are we trying
to do that will morefoundationally fundamentally
shift things to be focused on
Mandy (56:04):
Find
katy (56:04):
caring about each
Mandy (56:05):
caring about each other,
caring about their earth,
katy (56:08):
not being
Mandy (56:09):
not naturally.
Mm-hmm.
katy (56:11):
not oppressing people.
Like what, what will move theneedle in that way?
Mandy (56:15):
that way,
katy (56:16):
And I,
Mandy (56:17):
and I,
katy (56:18):
the
Mandy (56:18):
I think learning a lot
since the past
katy (56:20):
really open to some of
Mandy (56:21):
open.
katy (56:22):
Being hard to learn and
challenging maybe what we wish
were true or wish could happen.
But, you know,
Mandy (56:29):
But,
katy (56:29):
even
Mandy (56:29):
you know, I don't even
know what that meant.
I
katy (56:32):
of what I'm saying, but
one of the takeaways from this
Mandy (56:35):
things
katy (56:36):
just trying to think about
Mandy (56:37):
about how,
katy (56:39):
how open we
Mandy (56:40):
how open
katy (56:41):
different tactics and
strategies that, that actually
do move the needle.
And of course, I mean, we'vetalked about this a million
times over the years, just ofthe most obvious ways is for
white people to not be thecenter of anything.
And I know I say this as a whitewoman talking to another white
woman on a podcast, we startedto talk about white women.
You know, like, I think there'sa role for that.
(57:01):
I, one of the messages is
Mandy (57:03):
one of the messages.
katy (57:04):
F out of the way.
Just like get, stop interveningand interfering and throw
whatever resources and supportyou have behind people doing the
work from the positions ofbeing.
The ones who are targets ofthings, you know,
Mandy (57:21):
Yeah.
katy (57:21):
but I, I
Mandy (57:22):
Well, and I, yeah, I
agree with that part of it
completely.
I also think part of the reasonthat it's so easy for some of
these things to never go away,like these people, the
segregationists and like antifederal involvement, people like
never left is because they areallowed to hide in the
(57:42):
background.
And so it, it seems like we'vemade victories where we have not
made victories, and I thinkbeing very conscious of not
doing that is also veryimportant.
Like to make sure that thesehistories are known and to call
it out when it is still goingon.
There was one another likeInstagram reel that I remember
(58:04):
seeing from a.
Black activist, politicalcommentator named Joshua Doss,
where he pushes back a bitagainst the current group of
liberals who are convinced thatTrump stole this last election,
which, whatever.
That could be discussed invarious ways.
katy (58:20):
the fact that people want
this.
Like,
Mandy (58:22):
That's what he said.
He is like, if, if you do that,then that will be used as a
narrative to help those peoplehide in the future.
When hopefully we come out onthe other side and people are
against it, then you're, you'renot making them own that choice.
(58:42):
You're not making them have thatresponsibility.
If you say, oh, well it wasstolen, then they could say, oh,
it was stolen.
I didn't do that.
You know, like, no, you didthat.
You all did that.
We're gonna remember that.
katy (58:55):
Well, and
Mandy (58:55):
And that's more helpful.
katy (58:57):
about what actually we
Mandy (58:59):
What actually,
katy (59:00):
You know, and
Mandy (59:01):
yeah,
katy (59:01):
is
Mandy (59:01):
I think there is this
desire and.
katy (59:03):
hear it necessarily as
much, but in campaign time
especially, there's thisrhetoric among a lot of
democratic candidates, like,that's not who
Mandy (59:10):
That's not who we're
mm-hmm.
katy (59:12):
I'm like,
Mandy (59:12):
It's,
katy (59:13):
it,
Mandy (59:13):
yeah.
katy (59:14):
we
Mandy (59:14):
not who we wanna be.
It's
katy (59:16):
it,
Mandy (59:16):
way to put it.
katy (59:17):
I don't know who's in
Mandy (59:18):
I,
katy (59:18):
we, like, I wish that we
were bigger, but I, I,
Mandy (59:22):
I
katy (59:23):
appreciate that, like,
just the most
Mandy (59:24):
is the most honest
katy (59:26):
possible
Mandy (59:26):
possible.
And
katy (59:28):
to.
Make sure and protect thehistories that help explain
that.
Mandy (59:34):
explain that side note.
katy (59:36):
learned
Mandy (59:36):
learned that
katy (59:37):
Iowa
Mandy (59:38):
Iowa, I
katy (59:39):
that the
Mandy (59:40):
that the branch of the
state
katy (59:42):
in Iowa City
Mandy (59:42):
in Iowa City
katy (59:43):
longer
Mandy (59:44):
no longer.
katy (59:45):
they're not funding it
anymore.
And that's where the women'sarchives are for the state.
That's where the labor historyarchives are.
And so just thinking
Mandy (59:51):
And so just thinking that
what happens,
katy (59:52):
that's
Mandy (59:53):
there's no plan that's
been
katy (59:54):
the, the main
Mandy (59:55):
announced.
katy (59:55):
can't, they can't even
take
Mandy (59:57):
They can't even take
katy (59:57):
this other
Mandy (59:58):
this other archive.
katy (59:59):
And so there's like
Mandy (01:00:00):
So.
katy (01:00:01):
are they just gonna throw
things out?
Are they going to try to donatethem to other places?
But if we no longer have a placewhere
Mandy (01:00:08):
Have a place we're
katy (01:00:10):
women's stories or
collecting labor history stories
like that makes it real easy tonever teach about it because we
don't, we literally don't havethe
Mandy (01:00:18):
don't have.
katy (01:00:18):
of it.
So it's just, yeah, a call tomake sure.
I've just been so frustrated byhow many websites in research
and work I do for my actual job.
I'll try to find a
Mandy (01:00:28):
try to find a website.
katy (01:00:30):
gone.
The information is
Mandy (01:00:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:00:31):
all, it's all information
about history of people, of
color, history of women,
Mandy (01:00:36):
Women
katy (01:00:37):
plus history.
Those are the websites
Mandy (01:00:39):
are the websites.
katy (01:00:40):
and it is super
disturbing.
So just, yeah.
Thinking about moving forward,what are the lessons learned?
One of the lessons is to makesure we have lessons to learn
because we have history.
Mandy (01:00:52):
Yep.
Yep.
Well, they can always get on andlisten to us.
katy (01:00:57):
Until they delete the
internet, we should, we should
make,
Mandy (01:01:01):
Okay.
katy (01:01:01):
LPs or whatever they like
record albums and just have
records.
People can play on it like aphonograph machine.
I think that's the best way toprotect.
Mandy (01:01:11):
they'll be handed down to
our great grandkids who will be
like, who are these women?
We don't care.
katy (01:01:16):
this?
Oh my God.
Well, I, I am
Mandy (01:01:19):
All right.
katy (01:01:20):
again and see you next
week.
Thanks for listening,
Mandy (01:01:22):
Okay.
We'll see you.
Bye.