Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 6

Send us a text

In this episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell discuss Chapter 6 of their reading, focusing on the role of white women in the historical and political landscape post-World War II. They explore how these women perpetuated white supremacy by opposing concepts like human rights and integration, particularly through their actions at key events like the 1948 Democratic National Convention and their support of the Bricker Amendment. The chapter reveals how white women strategically used issues like anti-communism and anti-globalism to mask their racist agendas, influencing policies and elections. Discussions include the 1952 election where Eisenhower was elected largely due to the support of white southern women, and the grassroots activism that saw these women rally against treaties and educational reforms. The script underscores the importance of understanding history to see how these deeply rooted ideological conflicts have shaped modern political movements like MAGA.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.

(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.

Mandy (00:11):
Hi.

katy (00:12):
Hi.
Hi.

Mandy (00:13):
Good to see you again.

katy (00:15):
it's so good to see you too.
I know we're gonna dive rightin.
It's back to school time for youand it's almost back to school
time for me, and I havechildcare duties today and so
I'm not sure how long.
Thea can stay busy before we getinterrupted, so we're just gonna
try to squeeze this in as tightas we can.
I have to say, of all thechapters we've read, this one

(00:38):
was.
May, chilling might be the rightword, but just it gave me, it's
like any horror movie where yourealize where the source of the
monster comes from and you'relike, oh God.
And like slowly back awaybecause this is where it all
begins.
It feels like this chapter is soprecisely locating so much of

(01:00):
what we're dealing with now.
Like these women would be sothrilled with what's happening
now and it just made me.
It like gave me horror movie,chill, stomach pains.

Mandy (01:11):
Yeah, it definitely feels like a pulling back of the
curtain.
About this time in school, likethis was all going on as an
undercurrent, but really themain current, but it's.

katy (01:24):
That's what I was thinking.
Gosh.
Because Mc Gray is looking at itthrough the lens of white women.
All of these things that tend toget separated.
All, you see how it all actuallyflows together and is connected.
But when you learn history inthese separate silo segments of
like presidential elections orwars or this, we're gonna focus

(01:47):
on foreign policy.
It's like you miss the engineand the ways that people were
connecting all these issues and.
And influencing everythinghappening in those different
spheres.
I feel not like I'm advocatingfor US history to be taught
through the lens of white women.
'cause that sounds messed up,but I think it like illuminates
a lot to put their actions in,like to make them the featured

(02:12):
or a featured character in thatstory because then so much is
illuminated so much.
Makes more sense.

Mandy (02:19):
Yeah, sure.

katy (02:20):
a bad way.

Mandy (02:21):
In the,

katy (02:22):
Let's be real clear,

Mandy (02:23):
in a

katy (02:24):
oh, no.

Mandy (02:25):
horrifying way.
Yeah.
So this chapter is chapter six.
Jim Crow's InternationalEnemies.
nationwide allies, and it startswith the 1948 Democratic
National Convention whereSouthern Delegates walked out.
Of the convention and the partthat where they walked out, this

(02:46):
is one of those horrifyingmoments to me, is that it says
that Southern delegatesliterally left their seats in
their convention whenMinneapolis mayor, Hubert
Humphrey suggested that theUnited States should walk into
the bright sunshine of humanrights.

katy (03:02):
I marked that too.
Yeah.
No.
I will not have human rights.
No, it just so shocking.
And I know we can sit throughand we will parse through all
the reasons why they put thepuzzle pieces together.
And they weren't wrong.
Like this, the way of life thatthey were fighting so hard for
was being threatened by caringabout human rights.
But I just, what I cannot everget past is how.

(03:24):
You say no to that?
How you say no to a world whereeverybody's safe and free and
treating each other well, andyou're like, no thanks.
I prefer a hierarchy andfighting really hard to stay on
top of other people.
That's what I want.

Mandy (03:39):
Yeah,

katy (03:39):
How.

Mandy (03:39):
what that's my thought, like imagine.
Being that person that gets liketheir panties in a bunch over
human rights.
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's such a fearful way to live.
I think.
So

katy (03:53):
Yes.

Mandy (03:54):
is rooted in fear and I am like, why?
I don't know.
I don't get it.
Where, why?
Where does that come from?

katy (04:02):
I don't know.
Maybe it's like that adage like,hurt people, hurt people.
Again, everyone needs therapy.
That's what we should just beraising money for is massive
counseling treatments forpeople.
But it does just strike me asthe, like a disbelief that
people will take care of eachother.
And the only way to do it is tohave like your, tight-knit

(04:24):
little group.
That's who you're loyal to andfuck everybody else.
That's, that seems like what itcomes down to.
Maybe it's not that simple, butI don't know how else to.
Make sense of it like it is.
It is so fearful and it justseems like there's so much
distrust.
I don't believe you.
Like when I think about thehuman rights, it's great, if we
have human rights, theneveryone's human rights are

(04:45):
protected and we all look outfor each other.
And that's that.

Mandy (04:48):
Right.

katy (04:48):
And I don't know why they are thinking like, oh, I.
Be I if it's like I don't, someof it is eugenic straight up I
don't believe everyone is human.
Some of it is I don't, if thathappens, like I don't believe
that people will protect me ormaybe it's even to what I want
protected these people say isbad, and so I don't wanna,

(05:11):
because yeah, we're not gonnaprotect white supremacy.
That's true.
Correct.

Mandy (05:15):
Yeah.
I think some of the fear also isthat white supremacy allowed,
quite frankly, people who arenot as intelligent or not as.
Able as others to still achievesuccess in whatever way,
monetary way, power way,whatever.
So that they see an equalizationas

katy (05:39):
A loss.

Mandy (05:39):
Yeah.
A loss, which for

katy (05:41):
Yeah.

Mandy (05:41):
it is.

katy (05:42):
When you have.

Mandy (05:44):
a mediocre white male.
And become

katy (05:48):
And Lord over other people.

Mandy (05:50):
So it's oh, we have to actually compete we don't wanna
have to do that because we won'twin in that situation.

katy (05:58):
It just, I don't know.
I'm, and maybe it's just all ofthose things to a certain
extent, combined together.
It's just shocking to read it,be that bold oh, they want human
rights.
Bye.
We're not, we don't yeah.
It's wild.

Mandy (06:12):
This is, this chapter is specifically tying that to this
international segment where youbring in the United Nations,
which we ended last week talkingabout how the United Nations
became such a threat to theconservative agenda.
And I think this is the focusmostly that chapter.

katy (06:35):
And it's, it really did, does such a great job at
explaining it how all of thesepolicy issues.
Come from the same fear, On thesurface they look so
disconnected.
Like I mentioned last time, I'venever really understood why MAGA
or why the Tea Party was so antiUN and like where that just
seemed like a random thing forthem to really have conspiracy

(06:56):
theories about.
It's oh no, it actually makestotal sense.
They McRay calls, the humanrights part of the United
Nations, another odiousoffspring of Eleanor Roosevelt,
who actually chaired the UN'sCommission on Human Rights and
helped to.
Get the Declaration of HumanRights written I thought that
was a great descriptor, odious,offspring.

(07:17):
And that it was almost likestates' rights taken to an
international level, like youare going to threaten our
national sovereignty.
But of course, the way thatthey're understanding national
sovereignty is through a verywhite Christian nationalist
lens.
So internationalism, that'scelebrating multiculturalism,
that's that's like making publichow.

(07:37):
Not true eugenics is, and howrace science is actually not
science and race is a socialconstruction.
Like once you, if you decide tothrow your hat in the ring with
those people, you know you haveto give up a lot of these other
systems.
And it was interesting to talkabout how initially white
segregationists in the South,didn't automatically make that

(07:58):
connection.
It wasn't like bing bang, boomreally quick, but it was as like
a bunch of different.
Streams are gathering strength.
So it's the Human RightsConvention.
It's the post World War IIholding accountable of Nazis for
genocide.
It's an uptick in the doublevictory of black veterans coming

(08:20):
home and the Civil RightsMovement really picking up
momentum, communism.
Coming into the United Statesbecause Russia was an ally of
the United States during WorldWar ii.
I think a lot of people forgetthat.
But thinking about communism asthe other end of the.
Political economic spectrum isfascist fascism, and so

(08:42):
communism becoming more popularand sparking labor disputes and
labor rights, rights forworkers, social security, the
new deal, like all of thesethings coming together and
coalescing around just a corebelief in people's fundamental
equality and.
Human rights.

Mandy (09:01):
Yep.

katy (09:02):
then as it becomes clear that these things are connected
in different spaces, like theUniversity of North Carolina,
that was a spot that people,white supremacist women were
watching really closely andsaying no.
We see what's going on here.
They're indoctrinating.
Our youth and communists arecoming and civil rights people
are coming and we're making allthese connections.

(09:24):
And we see the UN as part ofthat.
And.
Really pushing against veryvocally what they saw as
overstep overreach, thedomestic.
Oh, I'll just, I loved thisphrase too.
Domestic political vigilantesWhat these white women were.
Sorry, go ahead.

Mandy (09:40):
No, I

katy (09:41):
I.

Mandy (09:41):
say, I just, I found it interesting that.
That she does point out that theSouth did not reject the United
Nations.
As you were saying, initially,they were some of the most
supportive of the un.

katy (09:54):
Initially.

Mandy (09:56):
They said that they had a 90% approval of the UN in 1945
because it didn't seem like athreat.
They saw it as a way for peopleto support.
Global cooperation.
I just, it's interesting that itdidn't turn until they started

(10:19):
getting involved.
It seems like one of the majorcoalescing parts is when they
came out with curriculum.

katy (10:24):
That's it.
That's literally, yes.
Like at least when we're readingthrough Mick Gray's work, UNESCO
launches this like multiculturalanti eugenics curriculum.
That to me sounded great.
It was like, here's antiinternational's.
Anti internationalists, likethese white women in the chapter
we've been learning about,believed that UNESCO promoted
collectivism elevated the statusof non-white nations and eroded

(10:47):
white supremacist beliefs.
And I drew a heart like, great,yay.
And it's, they were like, deadbody, like they didn't want
that.

Mandy (10:55):
No.

katy (10:55):
it and it was a place then I al so I think, yes, that my
take on it was that was a realtipping point.
And then another piece I thinkwere these white women.
In particular who were able to.
Start talking about theirbeliefs in a colorblind kind of
way, and realizing that therewas a lot of power that they

(11:16):
could get people to join themwho didn't necessarily, weren't
motivated by white supremacyexplicitly, but were interested
in different tax policies orwhatever.
That you could have thiscolorblind conservatism that
linked cold, the cold war withwhite supremacy, but it didn't
have to be that obvious.
And so I think once they figuredout Ooh, we can get even more

(11:38):
people on our side if we leadwith this anti-communist slant.
Which of course is not justabout white supremacy, but it's
about patriarchy, it's aboutheterosexism, it's about all of
these things, then that we cansmuggle in other ideologies.
The anti-communist and whitesupremacy connection I think is
just.
Really important to understand.
And again, even in moreprogressive US history curate,

(12:02):
those aren't always super linkedtogether.
There is, there are someexamples of it, but that it
just, wow, it said, it struck meas such a strong connection when
reading this chapter.
Another piece that I noticedfrom this chapter that we've
already talked about a littlebit, but was stronger here is
that.
Because the UN was a globalthing, like an international

(12:24):
thing that it allowed southernwhite people to say it's those
outsiders on an even higherlevel.
Like our black people are happyand fine and stop putting ideas
into their head and stop gettingmad about how they're treated
when they're not even mad.
It allowed them to erase all ofthe activism and work people
were doing in the South.
Black people, other people ofcolor to, for white people to

(12:47):
blame it on theseinternationalists.
Like again, just very similar toreconstruction.
Oh, it's these damn Yankeescoming in.
It's oh, it's these, it's the UNthat is putting these ideas in
people's head or making it soundlike people are unhappy when
they actually love life here andthey love us and trust us.
And even to the point where,remember where they're talking
about protesting, paying socialsecurity.

(13:09):
For domestic workers.
That part made me so angry.
I know this comes later in thechapter, but it was like the
literally saying out loud, theslave owners.
Here was the Dallas Morning Newsran an editorial.
That said, back under slavery,of course, every slave holder
provided social security for hisretired slaves under the welfare

(13:32):
state.
Uncle Sam moves in to compel thecolored help of East Texas to
compel negro workers to take itout.
That line, like that passage wasso disturbing oh yes, the reti
retired slaves.
Even thinking that's a conceptwas.

Mandy (13:46):
a thing?
Yeah.

katy (13:48):
Bizarre and then to believe that there, there's some
like really great care that.
People are giving people,they're enslaving, aside from
just basic, keeping them aliveso that they can work for them.
It's just I could not that wasjust gross.
And then to think that'swritten, a couple generations

(14:10):
removed, but just again, so muchof this keeping alive, this idea
that slavery was not that badand how we are hearing that more
and more lately oh, it's reallynot as bad as people make it
sound.
In fact, like.
It was it.
People were better off underslavery.
It's just insane.

Mandy (14:27):
Yeah.
And then they go on to talkabout how like these new deal
programs and these, federalwelfare kinds of programs were
actually damaging the blackpopulation.
And.
Also like damaging white womenbecause they couldn't find black
women to work for them becausethey were saying that like

(14:51):
they're all on the welfareroles, so

katy (14:54):
God, it

Mandy (14:55):
we can't get them to work for us because they'd all just
rather be on welfare.
If we do get them to work forus, we're penalized again
because now we have to pay.
Taxes, we have to pay socialsecurity benefits.
So how are we supposed to getalong when federal programs are
coming in and making it so hardfor us to exploit people?

katy (15:17):
It's like the birth.
You just look at how the momentthat those programs start,
that's the birth of the myth ofthe welfare queen, And the birth
of the myth of black people justcan't wait to not do anything
and just get checks from thegovernment like that, those
stereotypes that are still sopowerful.
Just to hear these white womentalking about it in the moment

(15:38):
as it's all.
Beginning and that they alreadyare trying to promote that myth
is so incredibly frustrating anddisturbing.

Mandy (15:47):
there's one part where they talk about an address that,
kane Gibbs, was that MaryElizabeth Kane, I think is her.

katy (15:54):
Oh, what is her name?
Mary Dawson.
Kane.
Yes.

Mandy (15:57):
But she gave an address that she entitled The Octopus of
Socialism, which can I just tellyou that I love because I love
octopuses and

katy (16:06):
I

Mandy (16:07):
you

katy (16:07):
do too.

Mandy (16:07):
it that way.
See, you can say both octopusesand octopi.
This is a discussion I've had.
I love them and so I

katy (16:15):
I do too.

Mandy (16:16):
she used them in this kind of Negative way because I'm
like, sweet.
One more reason for me to loveoctopuses.
The

katy (16:24):
I.

Mandy (16:24):
white women hated them, so she linked it to socialism
and those were the like.
arms she said were causingbringing the United States to
the brink of demise taxation,public welfare subsidies, public
power, public housing.
Quote, the rotten dollar foreignpolicy and tax exempt co-ops.

(16:46):
So it's like all of these,anything that had to do with
public support of people

katy (16:52):
Right.

Mandy (16:52):
seen as this negative arm of socialism that was going to
ruin the United States, and thatwas also.
Part of the whole UN effort.
She says the UN was also godlessand part of an effort to sell
our nation down theinternational river in the name
of humanitarianism.

(17:13):
I was like, oh man, I'm gettingan octopus tattoo, I

katy (17:16):
Oh my gosh.
No I was just saying that shouldbe our new symbol because I also
love.
Octopi octopuses the octopus forsure.
I think that's great.
And just a reminder yes, all ofthese things are things that I
love, and that I support, but italso helped me understand why
socialism is considered such abad.

(17:40):
Word oh, don't say you'resocialist because you'll be dead
in the water if you wanna try toget elected.
Or, more people hate socialismthan JD Vance, which is saying a
lot because I don't thinkanybody likes JD Vance, like not
even his family.
I can't imagine given how hetreats them.
So yeah, it is like the, but I,again, this is where the war

(18:00):
that they're.
Waging is not just for policies,it's for people's imaginations
and for the way that peoplethink about things.
So if you can connect okay,Truman has this loyalty oath
that he issues because he'sworried about communists in the
Cold War.
The Cold War is starting.
Great.
Then we can tack onto that andthen we can say, what else is

(18:20):
anti-American?
Like, all these other things,like if people are getting riled
up about being un-American, whata, what an opportunity to slip
in all these other things thatyou have long believed, white
Christian nationalists kinds ofideas.
So yes, I.
Love the idea of an octopus.
And I actually wrote Fuck off inthis page because this lady,
Mary Dawson Kane really made memad and it was making me think

(18:43):
of Dean Kane.
I actually did a little pettydetective thing.

Mandy (18:46):
if they were In any way.

katy (18:48):
I don't know.
I don't think they are.

Mandy (18:50):
Okay.

katy (18:51):
Kane is his stepdad's name, so they wouldn't even be
related by because do you knowwhat his biological dad's last
name is?

Mandy (18:58):
No.

katy (18:59):
Tanaka, he's Japanese and he has family who was
incarcerated.
During World Wari.
Yes.
And yet he is his mom and dad.
Apparently he never knew hisbiological father and his dad
left the scene, left thesituation.
Who knows what happened, but heis now want recruiting people
for ice.
The actor who played.

(19:20):
Superman.
This was the show that was likeHotsy Totsy show when we were
teenagers.
And he's joining ICE and tryingto recruit people.
It's like all the same languageand oh God, like again, therapy.
Therapy would be helpful forthese people.

Mandy (19:35):
oh, gross.

katy (19:35):
My God.

Mandy (19:36):
Yeah, so that reminds me of one section in this chapter
where it talks about a courtcase in 1951, which is Perez
versus California, whichchallenged the state's
prohibition on persons ofJapanese ancestry owning land.
And in that challenge, theycited part of the UN's charter
to support overturning this ban

katy (19:59):
Which ps that's another piece of history that I don't
think people really know arethat these, there were these
laws against.
Citizen, just there's just somuch history that people will
need to know better.
Okay?
Yes.
So that court case and that theywere using the UN to bolster
their argument for why thatshould be unconstitutional, to
deny people the right to ownland when they are in their own

(20:20):
country.
Yes.

Mandy (20:21):
then the DAR, one of our favorites, daughters of

katy (20:24):
Know.

Mandy (20:25):
Magazine then ran articles after that warning
members that the UN conventionscould be invoked to overturn
anti miscegenation laws it hadbeen used to overturn racially
exclusive property legislationin California.
And so they, one of the chaptersof the DAR in Illinois.
Held one of their statewideessay contests on

katy (20:46):
No.

Mandy (20:46):
United States should not belong to a world government
organization, because they justsee this as not only is the
federal government getting toobig and allowing all of these
social programs to start beingenacted, now we have something
even bigger than the federalgovernment.
We have a worldwide organizationthat's now interfering and

(21:08):
influencing court cases, andthey're gonna just.
Keep going further and furtherand further encroaching into
this way of life that thesewhite southerners were ready to
literally die, to keep

katy (21:22):
and in this, again, this is Ogden, Florence Ogden.
We've been talking about thesewomen that, that Mick Ray just
keeps following through thedecades and all of their
nefarious on ongoing just.
O.
Yes.
But they talks about theDaughters of American Revolution
passing formal resolutionsagainst the United Nations World

(21:42):
Government and the GenocideTreaty.
And so I was laughing how youwere remembering that you won a
DAR essay contest.
And I was like, dear God, whatif it was like, why genocide is
okay by Mandy Griffin, my Mandy,it wouldn't be Griffin, like
you're.
Little fifth grade, however oldyou're, I'm sure you would not,
I don't think you would've, Ithink you would've seen through
that at that age even.

(22:03):
But that,

Mandy (22:04):
whatever it was to be able to find that connection.
What

katy (22:07):
totally.

Mandy (22:08):
thing that they

katy (22:09):
Oh, it's probably something sketchy.

Mandy (22:11):
I'm sure.

katy (22:12):
but this what I thought, this is just so wild especially
right after World War II and.
This horrifically very welldocumented genocide.
Not that's the first or lastgenocide for sure.
And there's really interestingresearch about, just why certain
genocides become better knownthan others.
And of course, this connected toracism and cla like classism and

(22:33):
all sorts of things.
Coming hot off the heels of theholocaust to say, we don't want
a genocide treaty, we don't wantto prevent future gen.
No.

Mandy (22:43):
Yep.

katy (22:43):
Let's not prevent that because, and here's what
Florence Ogden says, that itwould be illegal to make
derogatory statements about thenaacp, which in my, I put for
fuck's sake in the margins here,because it's do you, oh my God.
Like complaining about someoneeven being racist and saying
something ignorant and racistand bigoted doesn't, is not the
same as genocide.

(23:04):
Do people not understand whatgenocide is, first of all,
anyway, but also then shareswhat she's arguing.
A negro, a Chinese or a memberof any racial minority could
insult you or your daughter.
And of course they're sayingdaughter, Not saying kid they're
very explicitly saying you, toprotect your virgin daughter.

Mandy (23:22):
Yeah.

katy (23:22):
Your husband might shoot him, knock him down, or cuss him
out.
If so, he could be tried in aninternational court.
It would also make it a crime toprevent interracial marriage.
Racial intermarriage andintermarriage would destroy the
white race, which has broughtChristianity to the world like,
good God,

Mandy (23:37):
bring Christianity there in the end.
Like we can't destroy the whiterace because of Christianity.
Like the, I don't get it.
I

katy (23:46):
no.

Mandy (23:47):
the line of thinking.
Yeah, but that's what they saidthey

katy (23:50):
Like we won't be able to beat up people anymore.
So get don't support Thisbasically in a nutshell is what
it is.
Like it's just wild.
But very, all of these women inwhatever platforms they had,
building their platforms,actually becoming more popular
by linking isolationism,anti-communism, and white

(24:10):
supremacy.
Which I was like, oh, ding,ding, ding.
Maga.
That's what it is.
It's America first.
It's Which is old, old, old andanti-communist, which I don't
know that I hear people callinganybody communist.
I, maybe they are, and I just,I'm not in those circles, but to
me it's socialism has replacedcommunism and then white
supremacy.
I mean, that's what it is.

(24:31):
And I will, this would be aninteresting.
Like side note rabbit hoods godown is the New York mayoral
election and watching thecoalition coalescing.
To prevent the Democraticnominee from winning because
he's an octopus, basically.
Why, and it's I see you.

(24:52):
I like, maybe you say you'reagainst one of these branches.
Oh, I would never be whitesupremacist, but I'm all here
for rich people getting richer.
It's just so when the rubbermeets the road, that coalition
will set aside whatever valuesthey say they have

Mandy (25:07):
Yep.

katy (25:08):
attack somebody,

Mandy (25:09):
we've seen again and again and again in

katy (25:11):
Yes.

Mandy (25:12):
of progressive politics, not becoming

katy (25:14):
Progressive white people.
Let's be real clear about that.
And then this was also, itseemed like maybe one of the
early moments where these moms,they created a group called The
Minute Women, which I'm guessingis like the Minute Men, which
are, it's Gross.
And then The, they start runningfor school board elections.
So it's like the roots of Momsfor Liberty and all these other

(25:36):
groups that we've.
Been learning about.
And here this to the point we'rejust making about the ways that
people can so easily set asidethings they say they care about,
that mainstream conservativesagreed with them about the UN
And I would even say about liketax policies and things like
that, even though they disagreedwith these women's anti-Semitic
and fascist beliefs.

(25:57):
And that's how we look at thislast election was like, yeah,
you're pro fascist, prettyblatantly, but are my taxes
gonna be lower?
'cause that sounds good.

Mandy (26:05):
I need my eggs to be cheaper.
So

katy (26:07):
I,

Mandy (26:07):
you wanna just lock people up in cages with no due
process, that's okay.
As long as gas

katy (26:14):
am I getting richer?
It is so infuriating.
There's also this,

Mandy (26:19):
was,

katy (26:20):
oh, go ahead.

Mandy (26:21):
I was gonna say just one more point back in the DAR and
their anti United Nations.
In one case, the DAR, it says,they said the United Nations was
a threat to private propertyChristianity and minority
rights.
However, the minority that theywere talking about was whites.
In this case,

katy (26:41):
Yeah, they're worried about white people.

Mandy (26:42):
Whites are the minority.
Rights count if you

katy (26:47):
When it's me.

Mandy (26:48):
but

katy (26:48):
Yeah.
As long as we're the minority.
Oh my God.
I hate them.
I hate them so much.
This, there was this pro-Americagroup that gets started and this
was just like this early schoolboard elections.
This was a group of women inPasadena, California, which.
California, again, when we thinkof places as not problematic and
we don't see the ways that thesewomen travel and these ideas

(27:11):
travel, we can write off thingsthat happen.
But this was in California in1950.

Mandy (27:15):
says like pro-America was originally founded in Seattle

katy (27:19):
Yes.
Yes.

Mandy (27:21):
I was like, Seattle.

katy (27:23):
these, they're everywhere.

Mandy (27:25):
California.
It's everywhere.
It's not the typical places thatwe're

katy (27:29):
No.
So I really wanna do moreresearch just personally for
projects I'm working on for myactual job to look into this
man, Willard Goslin, who was asuperintendent in Pasadena and
apparently really outspokenabout equity.
About multicultural curriculumwanting to have a global
education for students to learnabout all different parts of the

(27:52):
world.
Advocated sex ed and was acelebrated superintendent, but
of course not for these ladies.
And so they rallied together andlaunched this campaign and got
him fired.
And I thought, God, that's likesuch an early example.

(28:13):
And then that example traveled,like women talked about that and
shared what they were able todo, and so it became this.
Like guiding case study forwomen to keep going and take
that to their community.
I thought, God, that's again,something that's happening
today.
Also interesting that theylinked sex ed to all of this, so

(28:34):
of course it's just allconnected.
So it MC Gray said these womenenjoyed school board victories,
the thrill of working forsuccessful political campaigns,
grassroots organizing,publishing, and the benefits of
an increasingly national networkof white.
Conservative women that ends upincluding Phil Schley.
I know.
I never know how to pronouncethat.

Mandy (28:54):
I think it's sh Schlafly,

katy (28:56):
I just wanna say shit.
Face

Mandy (28:59):
version again and I'll, and

katy (29:01):
Schlafly.
Okay.

Mandy (29:01):
Yeah.

katy (29:02):
That she's starting to get involved at this time as like a
young, early days of her rise.
That, these are her mentors thatare the women we've been
learning about.
And then even running foroffice.
So Mary Dawson Kane runs forgovernor twice, I think, Win,
but.
Is clearly trying to galvanizesupport and do, pulling all

(29:24):
these stunts, oh my God, I hatethese stupid stunts.
Like it's, it just reminded meof Christie.
No, I'm dressing up and just allthese just, oh my God, it's so
frustrating.
But she refused to pay hersocial security taxes in
protests and then the federalgovernment padlocked her
newspaper office.
Because she owed back taxes andso she dramatically marches to

(29:46):
the offices and cuts through thelocks, getting the nickname
Hacksaw Mary.
It just made me think of JoniErnst campaign videos too, where
she's got like a gun and she's Ishoot pigs in the face.
I don't know what it that's notexactly right, but basically,
just God why?
And then these other women inTexas, who were they?
They were refusing to pay theirtaxes, which we've talked about,
like just all these interesting.

(30:09):
Ways that they found to be, touse their political agency,
which I definitely, there is apart of me that absolutely
appreciates that level.
And we've talked about thisbefore, like they're, they are
using tactics that I don't wantto ignore for their power.
They're not using them to theends that I want them used for,
that's for sure.

Mandy (30:30):
This really feels like the time where white women get
very good at hiding their racistagenda behind other political
issues.

katy (30:41):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (30:42):
I feel like before this.
The World War ii, the un, thisinternational shift towards more
globalism and anti-racism.
The, view on the US as beingbehind as far as equality issues
go.
It changed the way that thesewhite women could talk about

(31:03):
things.
Before it was just fine to beopenly racist but now they had
to get sneakier about it.
I don't, they had to hide it andthen, and they did it really
well and it seems like somethingthey continue to do.
In politics today.
But the one example of that thatI thought was really good that
came up in this chapter was thestory of Frank Porter Graham,

katy (31:27):
Mm.

Mandy (31:28):
was the president of, chapel Hill, UNC, and.
I think it was Nell Lewis.
Yes, Nell Lewis and herincidentally column that ran for
so long

katy (31:38):
Yes.

Mandy (31:38):
was kind of involved in the takedown of Frank Porter
Graham, but not directly forrace.
She used more of the communismangle to go after him.
So at this point in time, therewas a communist.
There was an.
Communist Party and NorthCarolina's chapter of the
Communist Party was working onthe campus of Chapel Hill to

(32:01):
kind of organize interracialworkers unions and also looking
for people to join the CommunistParty, which I also thought,
isn't that wild?
Can you imagine if there wereCommunist party chapters
operating like that

katy (32:16):
No,

Mandy (32:16):
today?

katy (32:16):
I'm sure there are, but just in, in terms of like how
popular

Mandy (32:21):
clubs on universities.
Yeah.
Like that.
And that also just points to howthis was such a pivotal time, I
think, in US politics and howthe spectrum of politics changed
so much at this point in time.
It took.
A literal hard.
Right.
In this time period, I feel likebecause there was more of a

(32:42):
discussion of communistpolitical stances, socialist
political stances, and I thinkyou mentioned this before, it's
just like that was hard stompedout

katy (32:52):
Yep.

Mandy (32:52):
this point in time, and it's where everything went more.
Right.
And it seems like we've justkept going right and right and
right.

katy (33:00):
I think the success is, and again, hopefully we get to
talk to Elizabeth Gpi McGray andask her more questions about
this, but at least from ourperspective and what we've been
reading and studying, it's likethis elixir magic, not in a good
way, like dark the dark

Mandy (33:17):
Yeah.

katy (33:18):
When you combine anti-communism with these other
things, with white supremacy,with homophobia, with.
patriarchy, you know, you, youcombine those all together, then
it's an easier sell to people.
Like there's something foreveryone to hate on, you know,
like a smorgasbord of bigotry.
So I, I, part of me wondersabout, I don't know.

(33:40):
I know, I know.
We're always trying to think ofwhat are the lessons for today?
And I'm sure some historianswould bristle at that.
Like, that's not the point ofhistory.
I would say, well, what is thepoint of history?
Like if you're not

Mandy (33:50):
Right.

katy (33:50):
learn from what is going on today, what are we doing?
I, I wonder about the ways that,you know, making those
connections, exposing thoseconnections for people really,
really explicitly.
And I think some politicians onthe left are actually really
good at doing this.
Like, these things are allconnected and you just pulling

(34:13):
back the curtain to, to saylike, this, all, this all does.
Interact, this, this all meshestogether because I, to your
point with the, what women weredoing at this time, what white
women were doing kind of hiding,like you said, but it's not hard
to find.
They were still being explicitlyracist.
Like it's it you had towillfully look away or not pay

(34:36):
attention to everything theywere saying, which I think is
how.
People get support.
Now I think about people in myown family when they describe
why they voted for Trump.
It's like, well, I don't likethis or that, or I think, I
mean, my 97-year-old grandpajust told me the other day, he's
a despicable human, but he'smaking all the right decisions.
And I just started laughing.
I was like, grandpa, well, likefirst of all, you cannot tease

(34:57):
apart.
The person from the actions, youknow, A, you know, and B, that
no, he's not making

Mandy (35:04):
Nobody's fine.

katy (35:05):
Like, let's get into that.
But it, it's like the ability tojust say, well, I, the reason
I'm supporting this is for thisreason.
That's more innocuous, eventhough it's deeply embedded and
tied to all these other things.
So, I don't know.
Not that, again, like I, youknow, I, I want us to learn.
From lessons from these eras,and one of the things that I'm

(35:25):
taking away is, God, these,they're good at these tactics.

Mandy (35:28):
Mm-hmm.

katy (35:29):
I don't think it's exactly the same as just applying those
tactics.
It's not like a one-to-onecorrelation, but there's some of
that.
And I, I think like going hardand being explicit about values
and ideals and not linkingyourself to a particular party
setting up like a vision of anideal.
World that you're striving for,that is really powerful.
And having people, lots ofaccess points into that to say,

(35:53):
to help people understand howall these systems are in fact
connected.
So they're not, they're notwrong in connecting all these
dots, they're just connectingthem to lead people to a fascist
white Christian nationalistagenda.
That's the problem,

Mandy (36:08):
Yeah.
Which is where we're at now.
So Nell Lewis was very pissedoff at Frank Porter Graham and
used this.
As a way of saying that likeuniversities are gradually
coming after the youth of thestate and they're going to
destroy their entire way of lifeagain.

katy (36:25):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (36:26):
she wrote that one communist professor could
influence 50 or more young menand women, which is certainly
more dangerous than a redgovernment clerk who does not
have access to the minds of thestate's youth.
So she was already going aftergrandma this time that he was at
Chapel Hill.

katy (36:44):
Yeah.

Mandy (36:44):
But then he.
Ran for Senate in 1950 and hewas running against this man
last name.
I know his last name was Smith.
I can't remember what his fullname was.

katy (36:56):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (36:56):
Willis Smith.
He was a conservative banker,Willis Smith.
And Louis wanted to supportSmith and.
I tried to use her columnincidentally to tell all of the
woes of like what Graham haddone at Chip Hill, what he was
gonna end up doing to the state.
The problem being that Lewis'sboss, Jonathan Daniels, was a

(37:19):
supporter.
Of Porter Graham, so he was notletting her go full out against
him, and Graham ended up winningthe first primary against Smith,
but then she red Redoubled down.
There was a second primary,which I don't really know how
that works.

katy (37:36):
was confused about that too.
But yes, there's still someother way for the

Mandy (37:41):
Yeah, so apparently like Smith called for a second
primary and they had a secondprimary, which I'm like, how
long would these elections go onif everyone who lost was just
like, let's do it againactually.
So he the then at that point intime, Lewis gets like much more
explicit in her column about theissues that she thinks is Graham

(38:01):
is a problem with.
They couch it in these terms oflike ever tightening state
control over the lives ofcitizens of the country.
And the part about that that Ithink you have to look into a
little bit further too, is.
They're going after the statecontrol.
It's the same thing that's usedin today's arguments, like the

(38:22):
state's trying to control yourfamily.
They're trying to control all ofthese things that you can do
with your kids and education andyou know, school vouchers and
school choice, all of that kindacrap.
But it's really not aboutcontrol as much as who's doing
the controlling, because whenyou look at.
The quote unquote values thatthese people were promoting then

(38:46):
and still promoting.
Now it's just a different locusof control for them.
It's like they wanna be the oneswho are controlling people or
they want Christianitycontrolling people.
That's fine if you have, youknow, fathers controlling
families, patriarchy,controlling women

katy (39:04):
Right.
It's what?

Mandy (39:04):
controlling people.

katy (39:06):
to what ends.
And you say this all the time,that it's not tit for tat like
extreme evil is the same asextreme Good.

Mandy (39:12):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:13):
So saying that the state is gonna intervene to let
everybody just live their livesis not the same as the state's
gonna intervene to impose.
particular ideology that'sactually rooted in bigotry and
oppression on everybody else.
Those are not the same

Mandy (39:28):
Right,

katy (39:28):
you

Mandy (39:29):
right.

katy (39:29):
So that, that's the part that is pretty bonkers, is Yeah,
it's not, it's not about pro.
Government intervention oranti-government intervention.
It's intervention for what ends,because

Mandy (39:42):
Yep.

katy (39:43):
is ar you know, except anarchists I guess are arguing
for some measure of governmentintervention.
It's just based on, based onwhat,

Mandy (39:50):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:50):
that, there's so many quotes in here that are just so
damning, but one at one pointshe and her editor get into a
big

Mandy (39:58):
Yes.

katy (39:58):
and she screamed, I hope all your daughters have n-word
babies.
So if anyone's unclear aboutwhere

Mandy (40:05):
About where exactly?

katy (40:07):
I think that kind of zips it up, you know?

Mandy (40:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.

katy (40:10):
much

Mandy (40:11):
It's

katy (40:11):
the other part, this is a whole other rabbit hole we could
go down, but I did just wannapoint this out for listeners
that Lewis, so it, it's not evenlike, is Porter his name?
No.
Graham Porter.
Yes.

Mandy (40:23):
Frank Porter Graham.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

katy (40:25):
That it's, it's not even like Graham is so progressive
and liberal, like we're talkinglike relatively speaking, you

Mandy (40:31):
Mm-hmm.

katy (40:31):
but that he, in, in the campaign is is talking about of
like a future that's maybegradually bringing the south up
to speed, you know,

Mandy (40:44):
Mm-hmm.

katy (40:44):
Lewis is.
Explicitly calling on an andpromising a return to this is
again, kind of make Americagreat again.
You know, back when we pushedback against reconstruction and
got reconstruction ended, he isdrawing on the 1898 white
supremacist campaign.
That's literally the name of itthat led to this coup in

(41:08):
Wilmington.

Mandy (41:08):
Mm-hmm.

katy (41:09):
about this

Mandy (41:10):
I don't know the history of it.

katy (41:12):
kind of in the news in January 6th when people were
like, this is unprecedented.
And some historians were like,not really, sadly,

Mandy (41:18):
Mm-hmm.

katy (41:30):
Carolina had about 20,000 people.
8,000 black people voted inelections, and I'm not really
sure exactly what led to it.
I think there were, were a lotof reconstruction policies that
were going well, like this was asuccess story

Mandy (41:43):
Yep.

katy (41:44):
So you had.
A lot of black people voting,which again leads to
representation in government.
So three of the 10 aldermen wereblack.
The, there were black policeofficers, black post officer
workers, a black countytreasurer, a black county
coroner, a black registrar, ablack dealer, like it was a very
integrated community.
There were three black ownedbank collectives, and so there

(42:07):
was.
Generational wealth being built.
There were black businesses,there was a black newspaper, and
so the as reconstruction getsstopped, white people in this
community were like, this is ourchance planned.
A literal coup called the whitesupremacy campaign, where they
rose up, people, burned thingsdown, pushed out, like it was an

(42:29):
actual coup that was successful.
Hundreds of people were killed.
Thousands of black people leftlike fled Wilmington.
And then the newspaper coveragewas absolutely gaslighting.
So there wasn't even like thekind of.
Of documentation that you wouldexpect.
It was a lot of oral traditionsthat got passed down.

(42:51):
And so this story has reallybeen unearthed in recent years
about just how awful andintentional, and this wasn't
even the newspapers that coveredit, called it like a race riot
or whatever, but it's like, no,no, no.
It was an actual coup planned bywhite people to overthrow.
people who had economic andpolitical power, and it was a,
it was successful.
So

Mandy (43:12):
Okay.

katy (43:12):
anyway, the, the Lewis candidate that she's supporting
was tipping his hat to thatsaying like, remember the good
old days and that we can havethat again, you know,

Mandy (43:21):
yeah, yeah.

katy (43:21):
which is just so gross.

Mandy (43:23):
Well, and there was a lot of that like.
Hearkening back to that eraamong these women at that point
in time, but also talks about,this is on page 1 55 just this
revival of Henry Grady duringthis point in time.
And I, that name was familiar tome, but McCray doesn't really
get into talking about thespecifics of Henry Grady.

(43:47):
So I looked that up a little bitto remind myself of who he was.
So, tucker and Kane were bothinvolved in his revival and
Tucker urged all public schoolsto spend time teaching Henry
Grady's new South speech.
So I looked up his New South.
So Henry Grady was kind of likeknown as the spokesman for the

(44:09):
New South during the immediatepost civil war era.
I think he was a newspapereditor, is why he had such a
large voice at that point intime.
He kind of sold this idea of theNew South, but also I.
While still being veryapologetic to the South's past.

(44:32):
Although he, he even recognizesthat and says that it's not
supposed to be an apology, but,okay, so listen to this.
So I looked up this speech, it'spretty short.
I'm not gonna read the wholething.
But he talks about how, you knowthis, there's this new south who
has this new opportunity who's,you know, standing now with the
light of glory on her.

(44:53):
He says, this is said in nospirit of time serving or
apology.
The South has nothing for whichto apologize.
She believes the late strugglebetween the states was war and
not rebellion, revolution andnot conspiracy, and that her
convictions were as honest asyours.
I'm like, again, I also don'tlike this whole like it.

(45:17):
What do they call that when yougive an in anate object?
Like personification?
Yeah.
Anthropomorphizing the South asin some, you know, female kind
of character.

katy (45:28):
I don't know.
Given everything we're

Mandy (45:30):
It could be.

katy (45:31):
No.

Mandy (45:31):
might be.

katy (45:32):
the idea that you like, if anything way the entire nation
has so much to apologize forlike that it's not just the
South, I would say that, but tolook back at the history and be
like, Nope, nothing to see here.
Every, you know, we were alljust sincerely.
Wanting autonomy.
It just, it's, it is laughableif it,

Mandy (45:51):
Yeah.

katy (45:51):
in like the most serious way.
You know, just looking at thedocuments, the secession
documents, they, when peoplewere seceding, they were very
clear about why, and it was todefine slavery.
You

Mandy (46:03):
Yeah.

katy (46:03):
and you can't move me in the eye and say, you don't have
anything to apologize for aboutthat.
Like, oh my God.
It's just the unwillingness torecognize the inhumanity.
genocidal system of childslavery is insane to be like,
well, we just, we took good careof people and they were happier.
That, oh my God, it's just allso, it's just such, it's so
delusional the, I think the partthat's hard is, and maybe this

(46:27):
doesn't matter, trying to sussout whether people genuinely
believe the delusion or whetherthey know they're selling an
absolute load of crap, but itjust serves them.
it

Mandy (46:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and there's also like arewriting of history that occurs
in people's own brains, I think,to try to justify like what they
were doing once they realizedthat their.
Pause was lost, you know?

katy (46:52):
Well,

Mandy (46:53):
they say, yeah, not so lost.
Not so lost.

katy (46:57):
they're right.
So the, this all segues into,you know, they've had practice
working on elections, they'vehad practice with these
petitions for things they've,you know, been influencing.
And I think the last two piecesof this chapter to look at just
the way that white women underthe leadership of.
Tucker, all these other womenwere really throwing their

(47:18):
political weight around andleveraging the fact that they
weren't necessarily trying toseek political office.
That, that, that was rare.
The exception one is the Brickeramendment, which we can talk a
little

Mandy (47:28):
Mm-hmm.

katy (47:29):
And then one is Eisenhower's election, and
that's this shift.
That's like when the Republicanparty becomes more recognizable
to us as a more modern.

Mandy (47:38):
Yep.

katy (47:39):
of the Republican party.
It thanks

Mandy (47:40):
Yep.

katy (47:41):
women.
Hey.
But what do you wanna do first?
The election or the Brickeramendment?

Mandy (47:45):
can't remember which one comes for sure, if they're both
just at the same time

katy (47:49):
I

Mandy (47:49):
because

katy (47:50):
election comes just first.
'cause I think they

Mandy (47:52):
just,

katy (47:52):
to influence Eisenhower to support the Bricker amendment.

Mandy (47:56):
Wrap.

katy (47:57):
let's take a little time travel back.
Is it

Mandy (48:00):
Yes.

katy (48:01):
Is

Mandy (48:01):
1952 is the presidential election that we are talking
about here.
And this is like the same timeperiod, which I thought we
should do a mini.
So on this, so put a bit in thisis that this is the same time
that the the words under God getadded to the Pledge of
Allegiance.
We have to do a thing.

katy (48:19):
we

Mandy (48:20):
'cause this is all going under the same time.

katy (48:22):
Yep

Mandy (48:23):
but so it is the 1952 election and it is Eisenhower,
who is he running against?
This is embarrassing.
This whole thing and I don'teven know, we this running
against

katy (48:35):
I bet it was a white man.

Mandy (48:37):
For sure.
For sure.
Okay, well, we'll find that in asecond.
So.
These women decide that they'regonna basically break with the
Democratic Party at this point,and they're supporting
Eisenhower and they basicallyput it on women to elect him.
So this is when Ogden claimsthat a Republican president was

(48:58):
the only hope they had fordefeat of the FEPC, which is the
Fair Employment PracticeCommittee.
Is that what it stands for?
Okay.

katy (49:06):
that, yeah, some,

Mandy (49:07):
Okay.

katy (49:07):
of connection to New Deal, like equality stuff.
Yeah.

Mandy (49:12):
labor laws, all of that kind of thing.
And she says if women wereunmoved by their duties as
citizens and white supremacists,she called on them to vote
Republican in the name of theirchildren.

katy (49:23):
Yeah.
It's such a, I wrote in the,this is such a weird moment
because you have these whitewomen very, very explicitly
committed to white supremacy,seeing the Republicans as their
way forward, but you still haveblack support for Republicans
too, in a more traditional, theblack.
Like the Republican party beingthe party against slavery.

(49:44):
I know we're putting everythinginto a black, white binary right
now, and I know it's morecomplicated than that.
Like

Mandy (49:49):
yep.

katy (49:49):
it, but if anything, this is kind of how the book sets it
up too.
But so it wasn't, black voterswere still supporting
Eisenhower.
I think this is why Eisenhowerwas able to win, is that white
women tip the scales.
It's just this like strangebedfellows in this one election.
Which I'm thinking if a lot ofvoters.
Who supported the Republicanparty knew what it was gonna

(50:10):
become.
They would not have cast theirvotes.
But it, I can imagine it beinghard to stomach voting for a
Democrat because historicallythat was the party that was
explicitly opposed to equality.
You'll, so you're just in this

Mandy (50:20):
Yeah.

katy (50:21):
weird limbo period.
But it was 59% of white southernwomen cast their ballot for
Eisenhower, which was 18%.
More than white southern men.
So it's really because of whitewomen, which of course I cannot
help but think of recent

Mandy (50:36):
Always.

katy (50:37):
like that is god dammit.
Like, stop, just stop.
Not, I'd almost said stopvoting, which then made me feel
like I'm one of those

Mandy (50:44):
Oh.

katy (50:45):
Yeah, coming around.
That's like, woman shouldn'tvote.
It should be households,whatever.

Mandy (50:49):
Katie Swalwell agrees with Pete Hegseth.

katy (50:52):
right here, right?
Oh God, no.
It's just like good grief, butthey were just so engaged,
speaking everywhere, pamphlets,you know, like a gazillion.
Speeches and tours that theywere trying to encourage people
to vote for Eisenhower and it,and it works.
So even though it doesn't flipevery county, they make huge

(51:13):
gains and

Mandy (51:14):
Yep.

katy (51:15):
And then it does end up flipping.
And at one point it even sayshere from 22 states people
requested copies of Kane'snewspaper expressing their
admiration for her Americanism.
And I wrote, oh, there's morethan, that's more than the
states in the south.
So that's,

Mandy (51:31):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (51:32):
a, so this is, again, it's not a northern, southern thing.
You know, that's easy to bedismissive in that way, but
that's just not true.
So Eisenhower carries fivesouthern states with majorities
in black belt districts.
Again, this like very strangealliance of people coming
together and.
White women seeing anopportunity to get what they

(51:54):
want from the shifting politicalwins and actually being the, the
reason those political wins areshifting to a

Mandy (52:01):
Mm-hmm.

katy (52:02):
you

Mandy (52:02):
Mm-hmm.

katy (52:03):
not just taking advantage of it.
They're manufacturing it.
then we get the Eisenhower'spresident, and then we get the
Bricker amendment,

Mandy (52:11):
Yes.

katy (52:11):
is a proposal that would mean the president could.
No longer ha the, the treatyapproval process, like a
president would negotiate thattreaty, the Senate approves it,
but that it, the amendment saidit would go to the state
legislatures to

Mandy (52:30):
To ratify it.
Mm-hmm.

katy (52:31):
a treaty with foreign governments,

Mandy (52:33):
Yeah.

katy (52:34):
I can only imagine.
Like I read that and I was like,dear

Mandy (52:38):
long do you think this would happen?
Like we would never enter intoany treaties ever, because
there's no way you're gonna getratified by all of the states.
But it's basically going forthis fear of like a worldwide
government coming in andinterfering with domestic law.

(52:58):
Which again is directly tiedback to racism because those are
all the examples that they useis, well, you know, if you go
out there and beat up a personof color, then you could be
tried.
In international law, we don'twant that, so we're not gonna,

katy (53:14):
that that's always their example to scare people into
supporting them is

Mandy (53:17):
like, you can no longer yell racist things and
physically harm people.
I, that's their argument.
That's really what they wentafter.
It's, yeah.
I don't know,

katy (53:30):
it, and it worked, although this, the amendment did
not pass it lost by

Mandy (53:35):
but oh my, by one vote.
Yeah, one vote, which I thoughtit was like, oh my gosh.
Again, the ways that historycould shift, if there was like
one different.
Thing it made me, it reminded meof like Susan Collins and like
the last,

katy (53:50):
or

Mandy (53:51):
big, beautiful bill and yeah.

katy (53:53):
what's his name?

Mandy (53:54):
Mm-hmm.

katy (53:54):
Manchin.
Yes.

Mandy (53:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.

katy (53:56):
like, no.
Well, the.
There was so much of this that Ithought, oh, it's just a matter
of time before this becomes whatthey're proposing again.
You

Mandy (54:03):
Mm-hmm.

katy (54:04):
knows then what the vote would be.
But so much of this, like Ithink we mentioned before,
Phyllis, good old Phyllis

Mandy (54:11):
Mm-hmm.

katy (54:11):
involved as one of the Bricker activists.
They were called Vigilant women,and they presented.
petitions, they spoke on thefloor, which I, I don't know how
people are getting onto thefloor of Congress to their 2

Mandy (54:25):
Yeah,

katy (54:25):
know how that's

Mandy (54:26):
when did that happen?
And then stop happening.

katy (54:28):
mean, honestly, thank God it's done.
But the part of it to like otherthings that they're proposing
is, like support for being ableto deport subversive

Mandy (54:37):
Yeah.
Subversives that looked, soundedlike language straight out of
something that would happentoday.

katy (54:42):
Yes,

Mandy (54:43):
Yeah.

katy (54:44):
So really like all, all of this is leading up to the Brown
V Board decision.
That I think is, is really wherewe're headed for, which is
you've got all these women in myhead I'm hearing like Eye of the
Tiger, you know, like they'rejust like jacked and ready to
pounce.
You know?

(55:04):
They

Mandy (55:04):
Yep.

katy (55:05):
pumped up.
They've had a bunch of wins.
They have this network ready togo.
are.
Like armed in terms of a, a tonof tactics that they have proven
work and are flexible and readyto go, and I just don't know.
On the side that's arguing.

(55:27):
I don't think it's as simple aslike side A, side B, but
there's, I don't know how elseto talk about it.
Like a, a side that wants theopposite set of things.
I know that there's lots oforganizing and there's like a
lot of movement and this is,we've actually talked about this
when we talked about whitefeminism and the different quote
waves of feminism

Mandy (55:45):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:46):
about third world feminism sort of emerging it like.
there's a lot, there is a lothappening, but

Mandy (55:53):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:54):
of the level of resources and the level of networking,
like they are just laying thegroundwork.
And I, I think about the successof overturning Roe v Wade and
the ways that so many of theseplans were, the foundations were
laid in this era, and I thinkthey knowingly said, this is

(56:16):
going to take a like.
Generations.
You know, we're, we're doing thework that we might not even see
in our lifetime, but we aregoing to lay the foundation for
this nation state that we wannasee, and that it's playing out.
Like they were dedicated, theywere a patient, they're fuckery
was just, you know, and steadyand.

(56:39):
just in a lot of resources attheir disposal that they were
marshaling in these ways.
So once the Brown V Boarddecision comes down, is just a
toxic storm, like the perfectset of ingredients for them to
absolutely with that

Mandy (56:58):
Yep.
So that's coming next in thenext couple of chapters, and
then we will be through thisbook and then hopefully we'll
get to speak to Elizabeth McCrayand we'll get some insight and.
To ask for all the questionswe're coming up with.
So next week we will do chapterseven.

katy (57:16):
Yay.
And if you are

Mandy (57:17):
Okay.

katy (57:17):
along and you're reading, well, if you're listening,
obviously you're listening oryou wouldn't even hear me say
that.
If you are reading along or asyou're listening, if you have
questions that you want us toask the author of this book,

Mandy (57:29):
Yeah.

katy (57:29):
send us a message.
Let us know what it is you wantus to ask her.
We have a million questions, andI know ours range from.
Serious and you know, scholarlyto petty and gossipy.
We are open to all of it by just

Mandy (57:44):
Yep.

katy (57:44):
the knowledge in this book.
Doesn't this feel like requiredreading right

Mandy (57:48):
especially right now, I'm like, we have talked about
reading this book in previousyears, and I'm actually really
glad

katy (57:55):
I.

Mandy (57:55):
that we.
Didn't get around to it untilright now because it seems so
pertinent to so many things thatare going on, so,

katy (58:04):
It does, and it, it's actually, let's put that on the
list of things to ask her.
Just the degree to which shethinks book is being read or
that it's

Mandy (58:14):
Yep.

katy (58:14):
the audiences that she wanted it to reach because it is
so salient and so.
Helpful to understand wherethese things come from and to
pull back the curtain and toname the people who did it.
You were talking about the, theguy maybe his name,

Mandy (58:31):
Oh,

katy (58:31):
name.

Mandy (58:32):
Doss, Joshua Doss, that Instagram clip.

katy (58:36):
their names, say their names and

Mandy (58:38):
Mm-hmm.

katy (58:38):
history.
It's just like that being soimportant to remember the work
these people did and how theybuilt this infrastructure.
Of oppression and kept it goinglike to, we, we have to know
that, to know that it wasn't anaccident, that it's not natural.
It doesn't have to be this way.
It wasn't even always this way.

(58:59):
In certain regards, historyisn't just an ever, we say this
all the time, it's, it's notlike, oh, things just get better
over time.
No, no,

Mandy (59:06):
Nope.

katy (59:06):
no, no.
And you know, we need to.
Remember and learn about howthat happens.
So

Mandy (59:12):
Yep.

katy (59:12):
I just, I cannot stress how important this book is in
this

Mandy (59:16):
Yep, for sure.
All right, we will talk nextweek.

katy (59:20):
have a good

Mandy (59:21):
Okay, bye.

katy (59:22):
Bye.