Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 7

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In this episode Mandy Griffin and Katty Swalwell explore the complex and troubling history of white women's resistance to school integration following the Brown v. Board of Education decision. The hosts discuss various themes, including the hateful and nefarious tactics employed by white women to maintain racial segregation, the differing reactions to the Supreme Court ruling, and the relentless commitment to white supremacy. They also highlight the use of religion, pseudoscience, and victimhood to justify segregation, drawing parallels to modern-day issues. The episode underscores the role of white women in perpetuating systemic racism and the ongoing struggle for racial justice in the educational system.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.

(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.

Mandy (00:14):
Hi.

katy (00:15):
Hi.
Oh my God.

Mandy (00:17):
Okay, so we have said hi to each other now about seven
times.

katy (00:22):
I'm sick of you.
I don't know what is going on.
We are experiencing sometechnical difficulties and we're
trying to get on top of it, butgood grief,

Mandy (00:31):
Yeah, well

katy (00:33):
here we are.

Mandy (00:33):
eighth time is a charm.
This is just like life.
It's

katy (00:37):
it is,

Mandy (00:38):
like down to the minute.
I don't know about you.
I feel like you

katy (00:40):
oh, you know me well enough to know that's not that
way.
Go at all.
No.

Mandy (00:45):
packed that like I don't have time for inconveniences
most of the

katy (00:49):
Oh, that's true.
Right?

Mandy (00:51):
when something.
Derails the way that I'm doingsomething, I get

katy (00:56):
Yeah.

Mandy (00:57):
angry.
I think that's a combination ofa DHD and perimenopause as well.
'cause I'm just like, fuck thisshit after one second of
inconvenience.

katy (01:06):
Oh, I mean, add a dash of whiteness in there and like why
isn't everything just easy andsmooth?
It should all just go accordingto my plans.

Mandy (01:16):
yeah.
The

katy (01:16):
how life should be.

Mandy (01:17):
around me,

katy (01:19):
Yes, obviously no, I, I feel the same way and I, it is
just like, it seems like moreand more, we were laughing with
friends this weekend about howeverything has an app and all of
the apps need passwords or like,have all these layers of things
and then none of those thingswork.
So like the basic task you weretrying to accomplish was like

(01:39):
97,000 steps ago, and now you'reon customer service for some
like.
Tangential task that was thirdor fourth tier to accomplishing
the original task you needed todo.
That's why I feel like just be,you know, returning to a time
where there was a rotary dialwith the phone and we called it

(02:00):
a day.

Mandy (02:01):
On that same note of technical problems, I do know
that when I've edited the lastepisode, maybe the one before
that, that in some parts there'slike a slight echo, which I find
highly annoying.
Hopefully none of our listenershave clocked it, but I'm sure
they have.
Apologies for that.
We are trying to figure out whyit's doing that and make it

(02:21):
stop.
Hopefully it won't this time,but we'll see.

katy (02:24):
Yeah, exactly.
You did say, speaking oflisteners listening, that we had
someone write in and we don't,you know, unless people say that
they want us to share theirname, I guess we, we can just
say someone wrote in and wasexcited about our mention of
Rethinking Schools.

Mandy (02:43):
Yes,

katy (02:43):
Which is a.

Mandy (02:44):
is, yeah, supportive of that organization and works with
their leadership.
And asked us if we could shoutout their upcoming Social
Justice for Educatorsconference, which is being held
this October 18th in Portland,Oregon.
And she just mentions in lightof so many.

(03:06):
Conferences and organizations ofthat getting shut down and not
being able

katy (03:10):
Right.
I.

Mandy (03:10):
is one of the last existing organizations and
conferences for progressivecurricula initiatives.
So if anyone is in this educatorsphere and has not heard about
this and is interested in it,just Google Rethinking schools
and I think the Social Justicefor Educators Conference and

(03:32):
Portland, Oregon, and hopefullypeople who want to conjoin on

katy (03:36):
Yep, absolutely.
Or even support remotely.
You can kick them some money ifyou're in a position to do that.
We can put the link to theconference in this show notes
I've attended in the past andit's absolutely wonderful.
It's an amazing conference.
We're actually going to beinterviewing the executive
director of Rethinking Schools,which I'm so excited about, and
we will be interviewing theauthor of the book we've been

(03:57):
reading, which I am.
Also so excited about, and thatis Mothers of Massive
Resistance.
We are now on chapter eight, atleast that's the chapter I read
for today.
Oh,

Mandy (04:07):
seven,

katy (04:08):
see what I mean?
I, the very, oh my God, the veryfirst, hello?
We tried.
I told Mandy that I couldn'tfind the headphones anywhere and
was looking everywhere for them.
Like even in where we keep theyogurts in the fridge and the
silver wardrobe, like I retracemy steps that far into the
bathroom, like where would Ihave left these headphones?
And then ultimately realized,oh, they're plugged into my

(04:31):
computer and ready for me to puton.
So that is the kind of day we'rehaving.
Well, a preview of chapter eightis that it's fantastic and
chilling.
There's so much to talk about,so I can't wait.
But yes, I've also read chapterseven.
We're good.
This is, this is what happenswhen I sit down to like work
ahead.
Then I get confused.
I, I need things to be lastminute for, I'd rather see it in

(04:53):
my pants because that's how I'veoperated for so long.
I'm uncomfortable beingorganized and prepared.
It's disorienting.
Things should not be wherethey're supposed to be or I
won't be able to find them.
Yeah, it all fits together.
Oh my god.

Mandy (05:06):
for sure.
Oh

katy (05:08):
Well here, this chapter.
Yes.
I'm ready to talk about chapterseven for sure.

Mandy (05:12):
Okay,

katy (05:12):
Let's do it.

Mandy (05:13):
It is titled Threats Within black Southerners 1954 to
1956.
So it

katy (05:20):
Yep.

Mandy (05:20):
with the Brown V Board of Education Decision, which
happened on Monday, May 17th,1954, and this was a unanimous
Supreme Court decision.
I didn't know if I rememberedthat it was unanimous.

katy (05:35):
that kind of shocking?
I don't know that I ever knew.
Yeah, I know.
I, I am really curious to traveldown the rabbit hole of that
court decision.
But yeah, that, that isshocking.
And yet.
These women did not take that asthe end of it.
You know, like I think about somany of the Supreme Court cases,

(05:56):
we were just talking about samesex marriage, and you would
think like a Supreme Courtdecision would just be like,
okay, that's decided.
But it is not.
So none.
No victory is ever permanent.
No loss is ever permanent.
Unless you give up, I guess isthe moral of the story.
And I,

Mandy (06:12):
give up.

katy (06:13):
I wish, I wish they would give up.
I wish they would give up.
I wish they would get hobbies.
I wish they would stop.
They are relentless.
If anything, this book is justan impressive level of
commitment to horrible things.

Mandy (06:30):
Yeah, I know.

katy (06:31):
Ugh.
It's just

Mandy (06:32):
it's

katy (06:32):
so, it is so upsetting.

Mandy (06:35):
most of the people who are listening, especially if
you've been listening throughoutthe recordings about this book,
know What Brown.
The Board of Education wasabout, but just like very
quickly,

katy (06:46):
Yeah.

Mandy (06:47):
Brought it was a class action suit that was brought on
behalf of black children acrossseveral different school
districts, and it basicallychallenged racial segregation
and public schools asunconstitutional because
separate but equal wasinherently unequal.
that is what the unanimousdecision came back and said,

(07:07):
yes, this is anunconstitutional, separate but
equal does not guaranteeequality.
And so it led to the integrationof public schools, but not in
any sort of fast, orderly, ordirected way whatsoever as we
see through this.
But

katy (07:26):
No.

Mandy (07:27):
the decision came out, of course all of our favorite
ladies we've been learningabout.
Come out with all of theirresponses to it.
And it was varied,

katy (07:35):
yeah,

Mandy (07:36):
in their

katy (07:36):
right.

Mandy (07:37):
and their approaches to things.
Mary Dawson Kane buried theruling oh, we're gonna ignore
that this happened, and waslike, all right, remain calm.
Everything will be fine.
We can defeat this too, but notgiving it a whole lot of
attention.
Nell Battle Lewis, on the otherhand, was in hysterics

katy (07:54):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (07:55):
the ruling as one of the worst things that has ever
happened to the South.

katy (07:59):
Yeah, I thought, oh, I, there's a, a longer list I have,
you know, that Yeah.
It's, it's Vietnam and the browndecision to her are the worst
things to happen to the south,which I, yeah.
It's a, it's such a banana'stake that you're like, I don't
think you know where you are,ma'am,

Mandy (08:18):
Not at

katy (08:19):
but Okay.

Mandy (08:20):
No.
And then Florence Ogden got herpanties all in a bunch writing
my friends.
You will now know how it feelsto live in a country that is not
free.

katy (08:30):
Oh, the irony.
Was it like, I don't think youcould concoct a more ironic
statement than that.
Like it, oh my god.
In a place where there werehundreds of years of chattel
slavery.
That's your take.
Okay.

Mandy (08:45):
Yep.
Yep.

katy (08:46):
Alright.

Mandy (08:46):
your freedom is gone.

katy (08:49):
Oh.

Mandy (08:50):
then Cornelia Dabney Tucker was.
Questioning the experts who gavetestimony, the validity of the
evidence that was used tochallenge the Supreme Court
ruling.
I

katy (09:02):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (09:03):
You were talking about how sometimes it seems like
McCrae gets a little snarky insome of her writing,

katy (09:09):
in the best way.
Yeah.

Mandy (09:10):
teeny little bits.
She said she dug out her 1937Supreme Court Security League
stationary for a new crusade.

katy (09:19):
There are just these little flashes that I know we're
gonna love talking with her forsure.
Yes.
Yeah, it, it is wild.
I think one of the parts of thechapter that I really wanna get
into is the distinction thatMcRay is making.
I think she does such a good jobof, of making this distinction
without.
Putting them in some sort ofhierarchy, like, oh, this is the

(09:39):
better version of things.
Like they're both fucked up,which is the liberal white
supremacists

Mandy (09:44):
Yeah.

katy (09:45):
and the other like, I don't even know what you like.
Like naked white supremacists, Idon't know what you call the
other group, but it, it wasbasically like gradualist quote
moderates, but the people whothought like, oh, a, a little
bit of token desegregation isfine and actually benefits the
south in all kinds of ways, andwe don't actually have to

(10:06):
fundamentally change anything.
We can just like.
Redecorate a little bit and keepeverything else the same.
And then the other group thatwas like, no, over my dead body
will we change anything everabout any of this.
And I really appreciate the waythat Elizabeth Glassby were
great is, is identifying thesetwo strains and how they could

(10:27):
sometimes be at odds with eachother, but just revealing that
they're ultimately about thesame thing, you know?
And when they work together.
Or even when they don't worktogether, but they're both
operating in full force thatthat's really powerful.
And then they're kind of alwayswinning in a way.
Because if you identify like adefeat of Brown V Board as the

(10:48):
way your side wins, then youdidn't win.
But if you expand what counts asvictory to maintain a Jim Crow
segregated south, then there'svictories all over the place
like and we see those.
We're living in the victory ofthat.

Mandy (11:04):
victory

katy (11:05):
Alliance.
Exactly.
So I thought that wasinteresting.

Mandy (11:08):
Yeah.
And then she brings up againthat like the underlying threat
that all of these people saw inthis decision that it gave black
southerners hope.
Which I was like,

katy (11:22):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (11:23):
yeah.
Again, how do these people lookat themselves or justify what
they're fighting for, when whatthey're angry about is part of
humanity having any hope?
I

katy (11:36):
Yeah.
It's so, it is, it's so awful.
Yeah.
I think the other, the otherstrain or the other kind of
thread through line in the bookso far is just the, the constant
erasure of black activism and ofblack.
Agency.
And in the book, again, we'vesaid this before, that there's
like a black, white binary thatwe know is not encompassing of

(11:57):
the full diversity of people.
And of course that race is asocial construction, but of
course, this is the, the historythat we are inheriting.
I mean, we have to make sense ofit.
So thinking about all the, thestory that these white women
were telling themselves andother people about where they
lived in the south, is that.
Black people in the South werehappy and the, they liked the

(12:19):
social order and that it's likeoutside rabble-rousers who are
coming in and imposing andstirring it up and putting ideas
into the heads of people thatwere otherwise totally content
with how things were.
And Brown V Board, in additionto a lot of other events in the
fifties and then especially inthe sixties, really make that a
harder story to tell because youhave people exercising their

(12:42):
rights.
You have people saying, well,this is the decision, so we're
going to, to attend school.
Where there are resources, youknow, that that is the, the
problem.
And we've mentioned this beforetoo, and she gets into it a
little bit.
McCrae gets into this a littlebit, but just the ways that,
just the absolute treachery ofthese white women in taking this

(13:03):
decision and making sure that.
E, either it would not beimplemented at all, or that the
way it was implemented wouldbend to their will, that it
would become a way to continuethe project of Jim Crow.
So even just that like, I don'tknow, I'm trying to imagine what
an alternative version of thisdecision could have been that

(13:23):
would've cut them off, or thatwould've shut down a lot of the
loopholes that they used.
You know, it's not like.
Like, let's imagine that thedecision had said white
supremacy is wrong and harmfuland hurtful, and it's actually
at the heart of the educationalsystem, and so we're going to
redesign public schools tocounter white supremacy.
That's not actually what Brownieboard said, you know, as, as, as

(13:46):
big of a deal as it was forsure.
But that when I just, I cannot.
Imagine how terrifying it musthave been for black parents to
send their kids to whiteschools.
Like just

Mandy (13:59):
Oh

katy (13:59):
the, the menu of options just being so fraught and, and
then the way that white womenjust vigilantly defended and
sought to expand white supremacyreach even within a decision
that was intended to chip awayat white supremacy to a degree,
you know.

(14:20):
So thinking of like charterschools as one example, like all
of these.

Mandy (14:24):
course, this is where like the charter school idea.
Comes in, of course it's tiedback to some sort of white
supremacist racist stance.
But yeah, that was one of theirsolutions for how they could get
around having to send theirwhite children to any schools
with black children or charterschools that could keep state

(14:44):
funding, also could.
Limit who comes in?
I don't, I guess I still don'tlike, I've always just been
anti-charter schools, so I nevereven looked into them, but I
don't understand how they getpublic funding, but don't
operate as a public school.

katy (15:02):
They, well, they are technically a public school.
It, they're, and what's, whatmakes it really hard?
One of the professors I had ingrad school who I, every year
that I go on in my career, Ican't believe how lucky it was
to have her to be a student ofhers as a professor, is Gloria
Latson Billings.
And she talked about this like,oh, it's really hard to talk
about charter schools and massbecause they're so wildly

(15:24):
different.
You know, to talk about like a.
Like a giant umbrella of charterschools is hard, and there have
been black parents who'veactually.
Leverage black charter schoolsfor their children, you know, to
set up like Afrocentric schoolswith that get public funding.
So the like, one way to thinkabout charter schools is as
experimental schools that arepublic and that they're getting

(15:47):
public money.
And one way to think aboutcharter schools is let's
experiment and let's try somethings here and then see what
should.
Be brought back to the wholesystem.
And so because we'reexperimenting, we're going to be
less strict about some of thesame kinds of regulations or you
know, we're going to allow.
Like different leadership to beautonomous to a certain degree

(16:08):
in order to allow thatexperimentation.
That is a way that some peoplehave used this idea of charter
schools, but the historicfoundation of charter schools is
this, which is, it was a way tosay, well, let's keep.
Having publicly funded educationso that we don't have to pay
tuition or homeschool kids.
Although, of course both of theprivate schools like shoot up in

(16:30):
numbers in the south at thistime, and homeschooling expands
in this time as well.
But the charter school issaying, let's, it's still gonna
get public money, but we'regoing to have it be the like
again, this kind of like, oh,we're, we're trying to do
something different.
And because of that we get to.
Make different decisions aboutthings it, but they're using it

(16:51):
for super nefarious ends.
It's fucked up.
I mean, there's just no wayaround it.
It drives me absolutely bonkers.
By the way, in Iowa, they justhad legislation passed that says
that if a private school, whichof course we have vouchers,
which of course is funding like.
Christian schools all over theplace.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (17:09):
yeah.

katy (17:10):
Right.
And they, this new law says ifyour school does not provide an
extracurricular activity thatyour kid wants to do, the public
school has to accept them toparticipate in that
extracurricular, and the publicschool does not get money for
that.

Mandy (17:24):
yeah,

katy (17:24):
I hate them,

Mandy (17:26):
of public schools.
You get all the

katy (17:28):
but none of the, mm-hmm.

Mandy (17:29):
you

katy (17:30):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (17:30):
for providing any benefit at

katy (17:33):
No, and it, it even happens with special education.
It, it's so, it, it is the thiit just like makes my bla brain
bleed, my bla breed.
That's how far I've gone.
I can't even pronounce things.
Yes, so.

Mandy (17:47):
my question then would be, and this is like going on a
tangent, but like how to then.
Utilize that in the oppositedirection.
These are things that are notgoing away.
So then how do we as moreprogressive-minded people, take

katy (18:01):
right.

Mandy (18:02):
of that on our side, because this is what we're not
good at.
We are not good at

katy (18:06):
I know.
I,

Mandy (18:07):
things.

katy (18:07):
what's hard is because the, I was thinking about this
like.
Even the, so the tactic ofcharter schools or the tactic of
like bullying people, it's likepart of the progressive project
is to not have those things.
So it feels wrong to use thosethings as tactics because that's
not the vision of the worldwe're trying to build.
But then of course thathamstrings you, you know, that

(18:30):
really limits.
Your options in some ways thereare, I, not that I think charter
schools are akin to likescreaming at people or bullying
them, you know, or doxing them.
But I, I do know that there aresome groups that have organized
some charter schools or youknow, people that are trying to
use vouchers to start moreprogressive schools, but it's.
It's kind of that old argumentlike, can you use the master's

(18:52):
tools to build a better house?
I'm paraphrasing a horrible,odd, like horribly, my apologies
to Ud Lord.
But it, I think that's theconundrum.
Although like you coulddefinitely make a case.
I think like in the meantime, weshould be doing what we can.
I don't know.
It's so complicated and on, onthe top of page 1 68 that she's

(19:12):
talking about how these whitewomen.
Would say like, oh, the blackpeople really don't want
integrated facilities.
They just want equal facilities.
And look, there were some blackpeople who even signed petitions
to uphold segregated schools.
And I don't doubt that that'strue actually.
I, but I, my read on that is sodifferent than their read.

(19:32):
Like they don't wanna be aroundracist people.
Like that's not the pro, youknow what I mean?
Like that's You're safer.
Yes.
So I, but of course, that's nothow these women are interpreting
that data with, they're like,see, everybody's just happier
doing their own thing.
It's so, it's just infuriating.
So yes, all these womenconnecting all of these issues

(19:53):
and, and using all kinds ofdifferent arguments against
Brown also.
Continually bringing up thisconcern that if we have
integrated schools, then blackkids and white kids are gonna
fall in love and get married andhave sex and have babies, and
that that is what we'restopping.

Mandy (20:11):
themes of it, which, yeah, I underlined so many parts
in that where I was just like,really?
This is where we're taking thisright away as education.
She says that many letters fromwhite women painted schools as
hot houses for consensual sexand breeding grounds for
marriage.

katy (20:31):
Yep.
This was a quote from.
An Arizona woman who wrote anarticle, what do you think in
which she instructed her readersto quote, draw the bloodline and
see that rigid segregation ispracticed when it comes to
marriage or social matters.
We have no right to expose ourhelpless children to the danger
of race mixing, which is boundto occur when we accept blacks
as being our social equals.

(20:52):
And really, I like it was in thefifties, in the sixties, even in
the seventies, thinking aboutthe court case, Levi versus
Virginia that.
Interracial marriage wasillegal.
1954 it says in Virginia,interracial marriage was, was
legal.
Up until 1954.
Montana and Oregon had justrepealed prohibitions on

(21:12):
interracial marriage.
But 15 states outside the southstill outlawed it.
That again, like these aresouthern women that she's
tracking and of the southregionally as.
Of context is important toconsider, but just I appreciate
how McCray is not ever lettingthe north off the hook either.
Like this, the, it's not likethe north was just a place that
had it all figured out and nowhite supremacy to see here.

(21:33):
Not at all.
And just think about how recentthat is.
That's our parents' lifetimes.

Mandy (21:37):
Yep.

katy (21:38):
marriage was illegal.

Mandy (21:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's

katy (21:42):
It's so recent.

Mandy (21:43):
the wild part about.
This conclusion is that theylike, they get so close to
getting it, it's like they'relike, they're just right there
where they're like, oh, if youactually spend time these people
and get to know them as humanbeings, then you might just
realize that yes, they areequal.

(22:07):
Like we're

katy (22:08):
Like

Mandy (22:08):
same.

katy (22:09):
we're all

Mandy (22:10):
we

katy (22:11):
it together.

Mandy (22:11):
yes, we're all in it together.
We do all have.
Things that we can have commonground on.
We can find where we connect, wecan like each other, and then
fall in love with each othertoo.
And instead of seeing that assomething that, that's a reason
you should promote this, thatyou should be good with

katy (22:31):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (22:33):
by it.
It's

katy (22:34):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (22:34):
see the same things

katy (22:37):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (22:37):
then they just.
Take this dive off the edge of acliff that you're like,

katy (22:42):
Right,

Mandy (22:43):
not where you should go with that, like.

katy (22:45):
here.
Here's another quote from a, anAsheville North Carolina mother.
We who have young children, dowe want them to grow up and mix
socially with Negroes?
Maybe marry them.
If you start them together inearly grades, they will
certainly marry, but here's whatI think it like Yes, I hear you.
It sounds like, oh, they almostget it, and then they, the way
they conclude.
Is so di it's like theirconclusion is to be horrified

(23:06):
and to be against that.
And I, I think it's this ideathat they are trying to preserve
something.
Like we have this heritage thatwe are trying to keep going and
to keep pure and we don't wantit to have anything get in the
way of that.
I, it's such a, like when Ithink about.

(23:30):
I thi this is like, go with mehere.
And I haven't thought aboutexactly how I even wanna frame
this, but I think about like forcommunities that have endured
genocide, the importance oftrying to preserve their
cultural heritage and traditionin the aftermath of genocide.
Like I can understand people's.

(23:50):
Concerns about what happens toour language, what happens to
our faith?
What happened?
Like, what happens to thesethings if, if no one is there to
pass it down?
And that when it's harder topass it down, when you have
multiple cultural traditionsthat you're juggling, like I
actually can understand howdifficult and painful that might

(24:16):
be.
In the aftermath of that, thesewomen are not experiencing that.
So let me just put like a giantfucking asterisk there.
That is not what's happening tothem, right?
No.

Mandy (24:26):
collaborative community is

katy (24:29):
Like, I wish actually that we would get rid of a lot of the
traditions that have been passeddown to us.
They're not healthy for anyone.
They're not healthy for us,they're not healthy for other
people.
They're not healthy for theearth.
Like

Mandy (24:40):
Yep.

katy (24:40):
it's a death wish culture.
Like that's, I don't want a lotof those practices to continue.
But the idea like that I canactually understand.
Like the predicament you findyourself in, in that situation.
I also don't think it's asimple, like, so don't marry
outside of a cultural culturebecause if you do, then it's

(25:02):
all, all is lost.
I don't think it's thatsimplistic.
Like I think there are otherways forward and lots of
families have shown lots ofincredible ways that they have
moved forward with that.
So, you know, but, but I can besympathetic to why that would be
painful or difficult, but thatis just not these women's
situations.
But they, but they think it is,

Mandy (25:20):
think

katy (25:20):
like, she talks about how it, as like UN is, is taking
hold post World War II and.
There's a lot of internationalwork and cross national
organizing that these women talkabout themselves as the
minority, like the globalminority, which is factual, like
that's actually mathematically,right?

(25:40):
So they, they have, they, it, itis just so bananas to me when a
oppressor groups adopt victimlanguage as a strategy.

Mandy (25:51):
it's like this almost fetishization of like victimhood
and persecution

katy (25:58):
Yes.

Mandy (25:58):
in some of these groups.
It like to me, takes me directlyback to my roots as being
raised.
and

katy (26:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Mandy (26:06):
obsession that Mormon people have with thinking that
they're persecuted and it's likeone, nobody thinks about you
that much.
Get over it.
And two.
Like you're not, you are likethe wealthiest, most powerful,
like monetary wise religion inthe world, in fact.
So stop with this.
Trying to make yourself seemlike this downtrodden group of

(26:29):
people.
But people do get off on thatkind of persecution.
That's what it

katy (26:35):
Well, it is, I think because it opens up other
options, like, like I just said,like if you are the victim of
genocide there.
There are, like I, there arepositions you could take that if
somebody else took them, I wouldbe ho like contacts matters.
I will just say that likecontacts matters and so if you

(26:56):
can try to frame yourself assomeone who's in this position
like it, it's almost like thebully complaining that the kid
they're punching owes them moneybecause their fist got bruised.
Like that kid's face bruised myfist.
It's like, you fucking hit them.
That's your fault.
Like, but it, it's a way toconstruct it.
So now you are in a positionwhere you can reasonably demand

(27:21):
reparations because you havebeen wronged in some way when
you were actually the persondoing the wronging.
And it's just, it's like a evilgenius logic, you know?
It drives me nuts.

Mandy (27:33):
a thing that I would love to go back and have this horse
historical conversation withsome of these women, this tactic
that I use when I'm talking topeople, when I don't agree with
them.
I also use this tactic when mydaughter has like anxiety about
things.
Instead

katy (27:48):
Hmm,

Mandy (27:48):
of trying to counter their assertions,

katy (27:52):
Hmm?

Mandy (27:53):
I like to just say, and then what?
So

katy (27:57):
right.
Like, so this thing is gonnahappen,

Mandy (27:59):
let's say

katy (28:00):
right?

Mandy (28:00):
It says, segregationists saw sex and marriage as the most
obvious and unavoidable outcomeof racial integration.
Okay.
And then

katy (28:07):
And then what?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And then what?
Right.

Mandy (28:11):
say what you're afraid of.
Out loud.
Tell me what your conclusion islike.
Let's go there and then see.
What the options are at thatpoint.
Is it

katy (28:20):
Right,

Mandy (28:20):
be that horrible?
What would you do if that wasthe

katy (28:23):
right.

Mandy (28:23):
like

katy (28:24):
Right.

Mandy (28:25):
make them, instead of going straight to the, you're
wrong.
That's dumb.
You don't need to think thatway.
You're overreacting to things.
It's just okay, let's overreact,let's carry this out.
So like the utmost and see whatthe real

katy (28:38):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (28:39):
is.
It would

katy (28:40):
You're just making the case again for therapy.
Just like therapy as a tool ofjustice movements, like, you
know, for sure.

Mandy (28:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.

katy (28:49):
and, and really thinking about the different strategies
that they have or the differentconnections they're making.
Like of course it's this concernof relationships and even,
governor of North Carolina,William Umstead thought that
interracial quote, mating shouldcarry the same punishment as
armed robbery, manslaughter, orbreaking and entering.
And there were all sorts ofpetitions that were, were

(29:11):
simultaneously panicked aboutblack men raping white women and
white and black people fallingin love.
So

Mandy (29:18):
Yeah.

katy (29:18):
like kind of extreme.
Versions of that.
Then there was science.
Well, let's use science to provethat this is a terrible idea.
So we've already talked aboutthis report.
Hmong girl Virginians.
That was in the 1920s thatpeople were drawing on and, and
kind of extending.
But that was again, trying touse social science data, which

(29:39):
I'll put in quotes to show thateverything's working great in
the south and that it's actuallythe north where parents
continuously teach racial hatredin order to counteract the
influence of pro amalgamationteachers.
So they were saying like.
In places where there'sintegration, that's actually
where white parents have toexplicitly teach their kids to

(30:03):
hate black kids, becauseotherwise they'll learn
different messages.
But like in the south, we don'thave to teach that at home
because we're just living.
Segregated lives, so we're notactually teaching hate in the
home the way that Northern Whitefamilies do.
So actually the north is, I, Iwas like, oh my God, I can't, I
wrote mind, fuck in the commentsthere.
Like, I don't understand thistwisted logic.

(30:26):
Yeah.
So just, and then science, ofcourse, that's like demonizing,
criminalizing black people,black children trying to use.
Science to do that.
And then of course there'sreligious arguments Christianity
getting weaponized here In allsorts of nefarious ways.

Mandy (30:45):
I liked the little bit of snarkiness again that came out.
This is on page 1 71 whereMcCray says, in an exercise in
historical distortion, amnesia,and imagination, they
documented, highlighted,selected successes of black only
schools.
So they tried to say look, theseblack only schools are doing so
well.
That's why we should let them belike, again, just trying to

(31:08):
highlight why.
The separation was good, but Iloved her wording there.

katy (31:12):
Yes, I did too.
Yes.
But again, it's like, again,using data, using information
like, well look, black peoplesign these petitions, so they
must be totally fine withthings.
It's the conclusion that's sowild.
Like it, I mean, it even happenstoday, like, well look.
Black kids are expelled orsuspended at higher rates than
other kids.
It must mean that they don'tlike school.
It must, it's like using aracist logic to interpret data

(31:33):
that's actually revealingsystemic racism.
You know, like, no, it's theadults in the building and our
racist society that are produ.
Like, it's so frustrating to seesomeone draw such just rabid
different conclusions from datathat.
Is showing racism at work andbeing, they can point to that

(31:56):
data to say, see, my racistbeliefs are accurate because
science tells me So that is, andthere was tons of examples of
that, like when the now I'm onpage 1 72, 1 73.
The DAR is not coming out greatin this essay.
Winner Mandy.
That the DAR and the UDC aresponsoring all sorts of like
teacher workshops and they're,you know, trying to counteract

(32:17):
this UN curriculum.
They're also trying to.
To track the, the impact onstudents and in particular
trying to make the argument thatwhite kids' education will be
impaired.
That was something.
Do you remember reading aboutthis teacher, pat Waters?
I wanted to reach throughhistory and punch her in the
face

Mandy (32:37):
Yes.
Oh, I

katy (32:38):
Waters.
When her lone black second gradestudent stood in line for his
hug on the last day of school,waters remembered being stunned
that a black 7-year-old wouldexpect a hug just like his white
classmates.

Mandy (32:51):
Oh, I was so angry reading that part and the other,
detail of that also made me soangry is that this was on the
last day of school.
This wasn't like the first dayof school

katy (33:02):
Uhuh.

Mandy (33:03):
had the whole year to interact with this child and
recognized that it.
just a child coming for

katy (33:10):
Right.

Mandy (33:11):
This is the whole

katy (33:12):
Yep.
Yep.

Mandy (33:12):
year through, so imagine how that child must have been
treated

katy (33:17):
I can, it, it is horrifying.
Yes.
And just some of the argumentsthat these people are making,
like, oh, we shouldn't haveintegrated schools, because then
black kids obviously are gonnabe held back because they won't
be able to, you know, handle theacademics.
And so it's gonna crowd, it'sgonna create crowding and all of
these grades, or, oh, now we'regoing to have to hire.

(33:38):
Some black teachers, but theyhaven't, they've been teaching
these substandard students forso long, like they're not gonna
be good teachers, so weshouldn't hire them.
It's just, again, like the, theway that the ar, the arguments
that they're making.
Then the way that the.
When districts actually didfollow through with the Supreme

(33:58):
Court ruling with Brown, it,it's just so infuriating that
this is the woman who's teachingthose kids or this, these are
the logics of the people runningthose districts to like, well,
what's our plan for all theblack kids that are gonna have
to be held back and like, what'sour, you know, what are we gonna
do with all these teachers whodon't know how to teach?
I guess we won't hire them.
You know, it's just.

(34:18):
So, so, so, so frustrating.

Mandy (34:23):
Yeah.
Back to your point about thelike absurd use of Christianity
and using God to

katy (34:30):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (34:30):
this.
The part where she talks about,there's a couple of different
people who use the example ofdifferent species of birds and

katy (34:38):
Yes.

Mandy (34:38):
this is the same as different races of humans, that
God made the birds of the air,but he didn't make them all
alike.
They do not mix yet.
They all fly in the same air.
And Florence Ogden was one whosaid the.
Noted the divine sanction ofracial segregation, comparing it
to the segregation of species ofbirds.

(34:58):
And she said to do away with itwould be breaking God's law,

katy (35:03):
it really just kind of throwing any argument at the
wall to see what will stick.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (35:08):
But then again, like they talked to you about this
religious conference.

katy (35:13):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (35:13):
a 1956 religious emphasis week at the University of
Mississippi, and this blackreverend had been.
Invited to speak, but Florenceheard about this and could not
let it be.
So she had a petition, shecalled state newspapers.
She wrote to the chancellor andhad them cancel his appearance,
then the rest of the speakers totheir credit at this conference

(35:38):
then all declined to participatein it because they're like,
okay, if you're not gonna lethim speak, we're not gonna
speak.

katy (35:45):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (35:47):
for white mississippians, adherence to segregation,
trumped Christian service,devotion, and education.
And I like highlighted,

katy (35:55):
Yeah.

Mandy (35:56):
starred that part as yes.
The, again, just like Christiannationalism, ignoring every
tenant of actual Christianityand allowing your politics to
trump any sort of lesson.
You should be learning throughChristianity and enacting in
your lives what was happeningback in the 1950s as well,

katy (36:17):
Yep.
Yeah.

Mandy (36:18):
with Christianity.
Really?

katy (36:20):
Yes.
And linking that toanti-communism and linking that
to antisemitism and linking thatto like just this being the
moment where so much is getting.
Connected, which we've talkedabout in previous chapters.
And part of that is the, there'sso many code words.
I know you're very quick tocatch, like you hate states

(36:41):
rights and the, you know, thesewords that are used as cover for
things.
And one of them is.
Constitutional government, likethe Constitution.
This is, this Supreme Court casewas against the Constitution,
and this is when Ogden gets onthe mic.
Metaphorically speaking, I callout white Southerners to speak
up about this federal betrayaland this abuse of the

(37:05):
Constitution, and to not do itthrough the clan and to not do
it through like hidden.
Violent ways.
Like, you don't have to do thatbecause this, we should be able
to stand loud and proud aboutthis.
So she says she warns againstthat kind of like.

(37:26):
Hiding, slipping up a dark alleyor wearing a hood, and instead
encourage white Southerners tocourageously and openly endorse
a way of life that has existedfrom the day of the inception of
the United States.
And then that's where thesegroups called the Citizens
Councils get started, which isbasically like the clan without
the hood.
Like the same politics for sure.

(37:47):
And this was another part whereMcRay, I, I just like really
appreciate her wordsmithery herethat she's talking about Nell
Lewis and that in NorthCarolina, she was worried that
white people would be, become,would, would just be so
apathetic and resigned that theywouldn't really mount a
resistance to the.
Board the Brown V Boarddecision, and McRay says her

(38:08):
concerns seemed misplaced andthat actually like lots of white
women rise up and that theyaren't gonna pay taxes.
And that one woman, this is Mrs.
Preston Andrews our favoritewhen people sign their names,
Mrs.
Husband's name.
She suggested the taxes she paidwere for our own children, not
all the children in the state,which of course is the voucher

(38:30):
logic for sure.
Until the Negroes can pay theirown way, they have no right to
say what will be done with ourmoney, which infuriated me our
money, like, Fuck you, and goeson.
To just make all the same argu,like all of these arguments that
we've just been listing.
It is an outrage that we have tosupport them, meaning public
schools, and then have to enterour children in private schools

(38:51):
bearing this additional expense.
I mean, she is like making thecase in the 1950s for vouchers.
Predicted race rights andclaimed you can't get Negroes to
work at all.
Finally, she accusedintegrationists of being
communist packed with numerousreasons to oppose brown.
Mrs.
Andrews letter was unusual onlyin its ability to cram so many
reasons on one neatly typed page

Mandy (39:11):
Love that.

katy (39:13):
needed to.

Mandy (39:14):
great.
So great.
Yeah.
I mean they just tied togetherall of those things.
It is like amazing how they justare throwing everything at the
wall, hoping that any of itsticks, like communism, anti
intellectualism, religion, sexmarriage fears like.
Pick an argument, any argumentthey can turn it into an

(39:37):
argument for white supremacy,basically.
The interesting thing I thoughtabout those citizens councils
though, is that even thoughwomen were so involved in
helping organize all of them,they were not allowed to join
them early

katy (39:51):
Right, right.

Mandy (39:52):
No women, like we need you to get your men, your
husbands to join and to maybetake our minutes and bring some
refreshments, but you're notactually invited.
And these women were like, yes,please.
What kind of

katy (40:05):
That's,

Mandy (40:05):
sir?

katy (40:06):
but I think that's the, that is, it's like women have
their power and this, we'll,we'll get into this more in
chapter eight since I've readahead and I know what's coming.
Just this belief, like women arepowerful, but in their sphere.
And like, we'll, we have, it's,it is pro segregation.
It's like we have our sphere ofinfluence.
You have your sphere ofinfluence, and we will maximize
ours.
Get your shit together and yoursso that we can run this town.

(40:29):
You know, that's, that.
It actually isn't lodge, it's,it, it, on the surface it seems
like it doesn't make sense, butit actually tracks like in this
sense, they are internallycohesive.
I, I was thinking too.
Ogden being worried that whitewomen wouldn't care enough.
And then, you know, beingpleasantly surprised.
I'm sure that all these peoplecame to rally around these

(40:50):
issues, but I, I'm worried aboutwhite women's apathy like That
is a concern, and I think we'reprobably very justified in being
worried about this.
Like it's way easier to rallywhite women to defend white
supremacy than it is to getwhite women to care enough to
take action in some kind ofmeaningful way.

(41:11):
About anti-racism or justice,

Mandy (41:14):
Yep.

katy (41:15):
in mass, like this, obviously there are exceptional
individuals, but in mass mymoney would be on women, white
women organizing to supportwhite supremacy every time,

Mandy (41:27):
I

katy (41:27):
you know,

Mandy (41:28):
they've done it since the

katy (41:30):
they, they a very strong track record for sure.
What, what was the quote thatyou sent me about?
White women Are the men ofwomen.
What was that?
Is that right?

Mandy (41:39):
that's it.
Yeah.
White men, white women are themen of women.
That was a tweet that I saw thatsomebody was like I heard this.
And they can't stop thinkingabout it.
And it's just so accurate thatit's terrifying.
And

katy (41:54):
Well, and this is, yeah, it doesn't go away.
And the, the citizens councilstoo, just the way that they were
trying to make white supremacy.
Really deliberate about how toappeal to people who that like
explicit white supremacistlanguage wouldn't resonate with.
But to build this biggerconservative coalition across
the north where again, I'm like,you were probably

(42:15):
underestimating how racistpeople in the north where you
probably could have said a lotmore and just been fine, but
that.
This using the constitution,talking about communism, using
these other words to get peopleon board and to come into the
fold.
Lots, lots of specificstrategies there.
And thinking about like theoverreach of the federal

(42:36):
government and all this codelanguage that is helping them
get support from across theUnited States.

Mandy (42:44):
like you said, it's like the Klan without a hood, and it
was so, so successful thatMcCrae notes in 1964 that there
were still less than 1% of black

katy (42:55):
Yes.

Mandy (42:56):
in desegregated schools in North Carolina 10 years later
and.
said while state officialstouted the state's lack of
racial violence, a whiteGreensboro attorney summed up
North Carolina's racialpolitics.
We're just like Georgia andAlabama, except we do it in a
tuxedo and they wear suspenders.
So it's

katy (43:16):
I mean, the classism is so gross too.
I mean, it's just like there's,every ism is gonna be involved
if you think otherwise you'regonna wait a long time.
But the, all of this, for 1% ofstudents,

Mandy (43:27):
Yeah.

katy (43:28):
that's what's just horrifying.
Right.

Mandy (43:31):
talking about some of this with my dad the other week
when we were out on a walktogether and like you said, this
is our parents.
This is when they grew up.
He graduated from high school inthe late sixties and

katy (43:47):
Right.

Mandy (43:48):
had moved for his senior year.
His dad had gone to teach inTexas, and so he actually

katy (43:53):
Hmm.
I.

Mandy (43:54):
senior year at a Texas school.
it did not integrate until theyear after my dad graduated from
high school.
Like he went to an

katy (44:03):
It's all so recent.
Yes.
It's all so recent.
I mean, again, you'll see why Iam excited to talk about chapter
eight when you read it, but the,the takeaway I had that I really
wanna talk with Elizabeth.
Gillespie McGray about is justthe fact that, and I'm sure
other people have said this, itjust feels like reading this

(44:23):
like, oh, we actually have beenin a civil war for 150 years.
But some people just didn't knowThat a war was happening and
other people very clearly did,and were.
Absolutely engaged in politicsin a, in a like war mindset.
So this strategy, all of, like,they were working with the John

(44:44):
Birch Society.
They were trying to get judgesappointed.
They were setting up statesovereignty commissions, which
was a secret intelligence forcethat targeted civil rights
activists and their supporters.
They are using all sorts ofintimidation tactics.

Mandy (44:59):
intimidating black families, like sending letters

katy (45:03):
Oh my God.

Mandy (45:03):
the families of black children that had been admitted
to white schools.
Suggesting that they reconsidertheir decision.
I can only imagine what kind ofsuggestions those were and the
fear and intimidation that wasbehind

katy (45:17):
Oh my God.
Terrifying.
There was a woman that GRAmentioned Sarah Patton Boyle,
who they also pile on like anywhite people, especially in the
south, who indicated any levelof support for integration, let
alone like anti-racism.
They went after those peoplereally fiercely too, to, to
teach them a lesson.

(45:37):
And so Sarah Patton Boyle isfrom Charlottesville, Virginia,
and as far as I understand itis, is trying to.
Advocate for integration andracial equality as a southerner
and saying, I think a lot moresoutherners actually want this,
that these people are theminority.
Like they're loud, but they'renot, they don't represent

(45:58):
everyone.
And then she basically comes tothe conclusion like, I was
wrong.
Like

Mandy (46:01):
Whoops.

katy (46:02):
is, yeah, I don't know.

Mandy (46:05):
So much hate mail after publishing that that article in
the Saturday evening post, andthen Nell Lewis went after her.
And she got so much hate mailafter that it says it sent her
into a spiritual crisis andshook her belief in any sort of
a silent south, willing toaccept school integration.

(46:25):
It's just oh, just kidding.

katy (46:27):
But I, but think about how many white women after 2016
were, I mean, this is like theWomen's March to some degree.
Like, oh, this can't be right.
Like this can't be what isactually happening.
And you had brought this up theother day about, an activist
who's, who's saying like, no,don't, this election wasn't

(46:48):
stolen.
People actually want this.
And you have to confront thatreality and work with that
reality.
And it's that, it's just asdelusional as it seems to
support white supremacy.
Don't get delusional in the waythat you think.
A lot of people don't want it.
Like that's not gonna helpDelusion does not help anybody
when we're trying to build amore just loving and sustainable
world.

(47:08):
Right?
Like the delusion that.
This is new or the delusion thatif you just, you know, if you
just confront people with facts,then they'll be convinced that
their racism is wrong, like it'sdelusion is not helpful.
You know, wishful thinking isnot helpful.

Mandy (47:23):
no thinking that white women are gonna all of a sudden
have an awakening.
And come around when the mosthorrific things happen.
The last, one of the lastexamples in this chapter that
was just absolutely sickening,brings up the story of Emmett
Till, who

katy (47:40):
Oh right.

Mandy (47:41):
murdered, tortured and murdered in 1955.
And the reaction of these womenthat we've been learning about
to his murder was.
Disgusting.
I mean, I

katy (47:53):
I mean,

Mandy (47:54):
of the word to describe,

katy (47:55):
no, there isn't a word no, but instructive, like at
whatever word we haven'tinvented yet to describe how
horrible it is.
But, but that was one of thesemoments where.
It.
It's like they are confrontedwith a really horrific reality.
Like, okay, you say you'rewanting to support children and
you give all these arguments andwhatever, and even that this is
what's best for black kids.
Or like you, you know, all ofthe things.
And then this horrific thingshappens and there are pictures

(48:19):
that his mother choosesintentionally to publish and
pictures of the open casket sothat everyone in the entire
world can see what happened toher sign.
Like the incredible.
Strength of that woman.
I like what?
That's Words as well.
And then these white women thatwe've been learning about are

(48:39):
having to, to try to spin it insome way.
And I thought of so many times,Megan, Kelly, whoever these
people are that have to takesomething that is objectively
horrific

Mandy (48:51):
Carolyn

katy (48:52):
spin it.

Mandy (48:53):
conference that she gives and

katy (48:54):
Caroline Lovet.

Mandy (48:55):
comes

katy (48:55):
Yes.

Mandy (48:56):
make.

katy (48:57):
And, and spin it to make it work for their, what they're
advocating for.
So here's Elizabeth McRay facedwith defending the brutal murder
of a black child.
I mean, just, just that.
Phrase right there.
Some female segregationiststurned to conspiracy theories,
denying the body was tills.
Again, this is just like theplaybook that we see over and

(49:18):
over again.
Like, okay, well what's we'regoing to say?
Yes, that would be awful if ithappened, but it didn't happen.
It's like the shooting inConnecticut of elementary school
kids like Sandy Hook conspiracytheorist.
Like, yes, that would be awful,but that didn't actually happen.
That's one way to react to it,or it was.

Mandy (49:36):
among others, referred to the murder as an alleged

katy (49:39):
It.

Mandy (49:39):
said it looks like an NAACP conspiracy,

katy (49:42):
and then they had no comment.
When Look Magazine ran theconfessions of the white men who
murdered till, well, that'sconvenient for them to not have
any comment.
Her nonchalant reaction to thetill murder was a long way from
her fiery condemnation of themistreatment of black prisoners
shop share.
In Barnes in the 1930s, oneNorth Carolina woman even
applauded the events inMississippi.
The boy in Mississippi was nochild.

(50:03):
She wrote, he knew how to insulta woman.
Oh.
Oh, so this Elizabeth Gillespiemurder goes on to say, unable to
shape the till murder into anappropriate story for white
supremacy.
Ogden tried to silence anycensure offered by the South's
own white citizens making acondemnation of the till murder
town tantamount to heresy inwhite Mississippi.
Just it's it, there really isn'tlike a good word to describe.

(50:28):
And this is why if you say to methat you are doing X, Y, or Z to
support children or to save thekids or whatever, it's such
absolute garbage.
Like that's what these women arearguing for all the time.
And then they take a brutalmurder of a child and somehow
spin it into why we shouldn'tcare about that.
Why it's actually not a problem,why it's actually a good thing

(50:48):
that happened that I then.
Anything else you say I callbullshit.
You know, it's just so obviousthat, that all the code language
in the world cannot cover foryou when this is how you act in
these moments and it's, we seeit all the time today.

Mandy (51:06):
Yep.
The only highlight to thischapter is that it does bring
about the death of Nella BattleLewis.
So an evening in late Novemberof 1956, she had a heart attack
and died, and I was like, thankGod.
This woman did so much damage,thank God she passed away.

(51:27):
Like what else could she havedone during this time?
Just like the senator who diedon the Senate floor arguing for
the tariff amendment that we

katy (51:37):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (51:38):
the tariff amendment.
What was it called?
The Bricker amendment?
Yeah, the turns of history, likehow things could go.
This is one of those that it wasjust like.
A breath of relief as finallyshe's gone,

katy (51:51):
But this just, her legacy is so lasting,

Mandy (51:54):
yeah.

katy (51:54):
No.
This, in the, the same monththat she died, a columnist named
Tom Ridge for the JacksonClearing Ledger was talking
about why the pro integrationforces have their timeline had
gone haywire.
He says is because theintelligent, independent women
in the South are not swallowingpropaganda as readily as was
hoped.

(52:15):
And I, this is so many timeswhere.
What they say is both so wrongand.
True.
Like this was a moment where Ithought that like he, yes, like
white women will cling to whitesupremacy.
Like do not doubt their abilityto cling to that.
Like that.
That is a mistake of the peoplewho are trying to.

(52:38):
Advocate for something is tounderestimate how rapidly they
are gonna cling to whitesupremacy.
I don't like the man who wrotethis, and I don't like why he's
saying it is like applaudingthem, you know?
But it is pointing to.
A, a true thing in the nextchapter is something that comes
up is some of these women kindof chuckling to themselves,

(52:58):
like, just wait till this comesto the north and then we'll see
like how much these white womenwho c who are criticizing us.
Like, just wait till it gets tothem and then we'll see.
And they're, they're saying itin such a, like an evil, cynical
way, but I was like, they're notwrong.
That's actually right.
Like that is what's gonnahappen.
And at least I like, I'm nottrying to defend these women in

(53:20):
any way, shape or form.
Just we can, I don't think we'redismissing them.
Like I, I want to take them veryseriously because they're doing
so much damage and they areactually more accurate.
They have better reads on howdeep this stuff goes than a lot
of the people.
Who might have been moreidealistic even in, in the

(53:40):
South, whether they were in thesouth or in the north.
They, it, it seems to me,reading this chapter that they,
for as much as they were worriedabout apathy, that they really
had their pulse on what whitewomen would actually show up for
and do, and how, how much theycould count on them to defend
white supremacy.

Mandy (53:57):
Yeah.
And I think that's one of thethings that we have tried to
really highlight in all of theseasons and all of the stories
that we have told is that youcannot underestimate the
shittiness of white women.
Yeah.

katy (54:12):
If there is one, one through line in this entire
podcast, that's a good one forsure.
I mean, not good.
It's terribly depressing, but animportant thing to keep in mind,

Mandy (54:22):
Very important.
Okay, so

katy (54:24):
I.

Mandy (54:24):
next chapter is actually the last chapter.
Chapter in the book and then theconclusion.
So

katy (54:29):
Yep.

Mandy (54:30):
wrap things up and then we will soon have our interview
with the author and I'm reallyexcited about all of that.

katy (54:37):
So, so excited.
Yep.
For sure.
Well, thanks for listening.
Thanks for getting on this callwith me 19 different times
before we made it Stick as therecording.
Thanks.
And as always, let us knowcomments, questions, and please
subscribe.
Please share.
Please.
Like that, that puts the podcastup in people's algorithms so
that they're able to know thatit's there because even though

(54:59):
we would do this by ourselveswith each other.
We, we do believe that thisinformation is useful and more
people need to know.

Mandy (55:07):
Yeah, very important.
we'll talk to you next week.

katy (55:10):
Bye.