Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 8

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.

(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.

katy (00:10):
Hi.
We're always pleasantlysurprised when the technology
works.
Welcome.
Welcome back to anybody who'sbeen listening forever or just
listening to us.
Work through the chapters ofMothers of Massive Resistance by
Elizabeth Gillespie.
McGray.
We're in chapter seven already.

Mandy (00:29):
Eight,

katy (00:30):
God damnit.
Yeah, you're right.
Chapter eight.
God, seriously.
That is what I meant.
That's the kind of day it'sgonna be.
Oh, mama.

Mandy (00:39):
talking when we jumped on about our utter exhaustion and
trying to figure out ifsomething was wrong or if this
is just life now.

katy (00:47):
No, it part of it's just life now and we're just getting
older and that's just how it'sgonna be.
That's just the word chromephase.
That's just chrome phase.
We have to embrace it.

Mandy (00:57):
Oh gosh.
All right.
Well.

katy (00:59):
cheese brain and achy joints, and that's our future.
I told my husband this morningthat I really like, I could do
the splits when I was younger.
That's like the only physicalfeat I had, and I was like, I'm
gonna do'em again.
I'm gonna do it again once morein my life.
And so I'm trying to stretch.
It's like my goal for myself,it's probably not gonna happen,

(01:20):
but the stretching that I haveto do to try to do it is good
for me.
You know?

Mandy (01:26):
Do you remember, so that just reminded me, the splits.
So I assume you're talking likeleg forward, leg back, split

katy (01:34):
Oh yeah.
I've never been able to do sidesplits.

Mandy (01:37):
out

katy (01:38):
Yeah.

Mandy (01:39):
Do you remember what they used to call those When we

katy (01:42):
Oh yeah.
Don't we?
It's so offensive we can't evensay it.

Mandy (01:46):
I don't Where did that come from?

katy (01:48):
I don't know

Mandy (01:49):
Everyone

katy (01:49):
would.

Mandy (01:50):
range knows what we mean and

katy (01:52):
No.

Mandy (01:53):
can't imagine,'cause I took gymnastics very briefly.
As a young child, and that'sjust legitimately what they
called them like, no problem.
No

katy (02:03):
there's a lot, a lot of stuff I think about here.
We've been rewatching moviesfrom the, from our childhood
with our kids.
Like, honey I Shrunk the kids,or what, you know,

Mandy (02:16):
Yeah.

katy (02:16):
needing to mix it up and they're getting a little older
so they can watch differentkinds of things.
But we are honestly regularlyhorrified by what the jokes are
and it's like, what, what ishappening?
I, or, and I just didn'tremember it, or, you know,
didn't track or what.
It's like pretty darn shocking.

(02:38):
Like abs.
The exception is to find a moviefrom our childhood that doesn't
have really offensive jokes andplot lines.

Mandy (02:47):
You know the

katy (02:47):
It's wild.

Mandy (02:48):
one of my favorite

katy (02:49):
Oh yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Yes, yes.

Mandy (02:52):
and I still love it, and I laugh hysterically at the most
ridiculous part.
the line where he says like,time this happens, there are
consequences.
Where I come from, there areconsequences when a woman lies

katy (03:06):
Oh yeah.

Mandy (03:06):
like the part

katy (03:08):
It's like,

Mandy (03:09):
insinuating he's gonna slap her when she talks I'm
like, what?

katy (03:14):
honestly, that doesn't even track like the, like
compared to other things like,okay, Hocus pocus.
Did you ever watch that movie?

Mandy (03:22):
yeah, yeah.

katy (03:23):
It's like you know, fair, fairly beloved movie.
So Thea loves like witches andlike, you know, she's really
into like.
Mysterious kind of scary sortsof things.
She's like a little proto.
Emo.
Goth girl.
Okay.
So we watch Hocus Pocus, which Ihad never seen, but it's, I

(03:43):
don't know, I felt like, oh,that's kind of a beloved movie.
People celebrated theanniversary of it, whatever.
There were sequels, the plotrevolves around the fact that
one of the lead characters is avirgin and they keep referencing
virgins and theo's like, what'sa virgin?
And it was like, oh my God, thisis a movie for kids.
This is so weird.

Mandy (04:04):
Yeah, it's pretty amazing when you go back and watch all
of those.

katy (04:08):
And there's just a lot of like fat jokes, like girls are
stupid jokes.
I don't know.
It's so.
Depressing, but then maybe weshould watch that and think
like, oh, wow, this is, we're,we're in a better place media
wise.
Although, you know, all thecomics that are like, we can't
even make jokes anymore.
I'm like, these jokes aren'tfunny.

(04:29):
You know, I don't want them tocome back.
That's, I'm not like lamentingit at all.
It's just like, whoa, wow.
We've, we've come a long way.
Anyway,

Mandy (04:42):
yeah.

katy (04:43):
how did we even get to talk about that?

Mandy (04:45):
chapter

katy (04:46):
Okay, good, good segue,

Mandy (04:48):
reminds me of all the steps backwards that we are
taking.
I think

katy (04:53):
I know

Mandy (04:53):
we've talked about in most of the reading is how
applicable this is how

katy (05:00):
to today.

Mandy (05:01):
It's like a puzzle piece, like putting together.
And connecting the dots of allof the things, all the
euphemisms for like

katy (05:10):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (05:11):
where we're at right now.
And this chapter just continuedto do that.
It was like the OMG everywhereand this

katy (05:19):
Yes.

Mandy (05:20):
about.
And I did one petty detectivepart that I cannot wait to get
to.
Your jaw's gonna drop.
So,

katy (05:30):
Oh, I can't wait.
I wonder.
I did a little petty detectivething too, but I wonder if it's
even about the same thing.
We'll, see, I, I am not yourlevel of expert in petty
detective ness.
I aspire to it.
But let's start.
It's titled, white Women, whiteYouth, and the Hope of the
Nation.

Mandy (05:47):
ugh.

katy (05:48):
do you wanna start?
Where do you wanna jump in?

Mandy (05:50):
I mean, let's just start right here at the beginning
where it talks about.
So

katy (05:54):
I.

Mandy (05:55):
chapter was about Brown versus board of education and
how that passed.
And then.
You know, immediately allschools were desegregated and
everything went great,

katy (06:07):
Yeah.
Right?
Yep.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (06:09):
so,

katy (06:10):
it is, it is interesting to think about an alternative
reality where things went acompletely different way.
It, it's like, honestly, I thinkit is useful to imagine that
even though it's heartbreaking,it is important to imagine other
ways the world can be and howelse things could have gone

(06:30):
because that is real.
Like that.
That's, and that helps us keepimagining better possibilities
in the future, but definitelynot how it went.
So here of one part, my firstexclamation mark, I have many
dozen exclamation marks in themargins of this chapter, but
one, the first one is how theSouth Carolina.

(06:52):
The founding of private schoolsoutpaced the state's substantial
pre-ground trend and a publicreferendum overwhelmingly
approved, deleting from thestate's constitution, the
provision to provide publiceducation.
This is one of those momentswhere I just like the common
sense myth, honestly, that Ibelieve and fall prey to so

(07:14):
often is that everybody wantsdemocracy.
Everybody understands democracyto mean the same thing, and that
everybody understands publiceducation to be crucial to a
healthy democracy.
Like, I just think like, ohyeah, that's common sense.
It's not like, it's not commonsense.
It's not something, it's not,there's not consensus around
that, you know?

Mandy (07:33):
us anything.
No, not at

katy (07:35):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (07:35):
mean,

katy (07:36):
Mm.

Mandy (07:36):
that they were trying to push back against this decision.
They did not just give rightinto it.
So they came up with this.
Yeah, the proliferation ofprivate schools.
There was also, every southernstate says passed a pupil
placement act that

katy (07:54):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (07:55):
districts to establish subjective criteria such as
morals, conduct, health andpersonal standards in order to
accept patients or patients.
You can tell where my brain is,

katy (08:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Mandy (08:08):
into schools.
So it's like it, even thoughblack children were supposed to
be able to integrate to schools,now they had to jump all these
other hoop.
It's like the the voting thing.
You know,

katy (08:20):
Yes.

Mandy (08:21):
pass this literary test.
You have to be able to pay thispill tax.
You have to be able to do this.
They're putting up the samebarriers in order for black
parents to put their kids intoschools.
And again, I was just like, oh,these parents like.
The courage that they had tohave to

katy (08:40):
Oh my God.

Mandy (08:41):
is,

katy (08:42):
my God.
And the kids, you know, liketheir, their youngest children
had adults screaming at them andthreatening them, you know,
kindergartners, which my, myson's going to kindergarten.
And you think about the, theterror of dropping your kid off
at school or having them go toschool.
Like it's already overwhelmingto be a parent and have your kid

(09:05):
start kindergarten.
You're worried about, like, inthe best of circumstances,
you're worried about them, letalone.
Like a super violent, terrifyingwhite supremacist situation.
The other piece I wanted to justnote that it's not just private
schools that exploded at thistime, but charter schools, I
know we've been talking aboutthat, but just the, the very
explicit connection betweencharter schools private schools

(09:26):
and eugenics, and that, thatthere's this, the eugenics
supporter, Ivy Lewis and biologyprofessor was hired by the
Charlottesville EducationalFoundation to basically set up
these private schools.
So it, it's not every charter orevery private school, obviously,
but that that is part of thehistory of those types of

(09:47):
schools and not just in theSouth, but especially in the
south.
So I, I just wanna leave thatout there at the beginning.

Mandy (09:54):
Yeah, for sure.
I also tried to write all theseemoji faces in the margins of my
book because I just need to beable to press like the vomit
button sometimes.
But my, my drawings are notanyone looking at this would be
like, what is that scribble shedid over there?
But I loved at the bottom of thefirst page of the chapter where

(10:18):
they talk about one woman whosename is only recorded in history
as Mrs.
Charles Reynolds.

katy (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mandy (10:27):
thing again her actual name,

katy (10:29):
it is gone.
Yep,

Mandy (10:31):
anywhere.

katy (10:32):
yep,

Mandy (10:32):
there.

katy (10:33):
yep.

Mandy (10:34):
So another, and another theme that has come up many
times is there was this tensionbetween still these outright
segregationists and then whatthey called like the moderate
conservative

katy (10:48):
heavy quotes.
Yes.
Like just the, what counted asmoderate was if you rejected.
Extra legal violence, and youdid believe in public education.
Those are such low bars to countas moderate, but that also rings
true today.
Like how far right we've come.
So what seems like it's in themiddle is actually still pretty

(11:10):
far, right?
Yes.
Yes.

Mandy (11:13):
Yes.
And it just reminded me of thatJames Baldman quote that we talk
about all the time about whitemoderates.

katy (11:20):
Mm,

Mandy (11:20):
says like, in many ways the moderate position
contributed to sustaining a JimCroation and I.
Exclamation march that, becauseit's just, it's the same thing,
like this position thatprogressive pol quote unquote
progressive politicians getthemselves into of like, we

katy (11:38):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (11:38):
this middle ground.
We've gotta appeal to everybody.
It's like, no, this supports thestatus quo.
Moderation does not fuckingwork.
When are we going to get this?
Like,

katy (11:53):
I, I agree.

Mandy (11:54):
I

katy (11:55):
Yeah.
It's so frustrating.
Even though you know, the, Ithink the period of time that
we're talking about here reallypost Brown V boards, so like
late fifties into the sixtiesand beyond that, that point is,
is crucial because you have somemajor legislation like MC Gray
talks about that the whitesouthern women that were

(12:16):
advocating for all of this fordecades really were forced to
switch up their tactics at thistime because you do have post
World War ii intensified blackgrassroots activism and
amplified federal commitment tocivil rights, this liberal
internationalist order, and evensome white southern moderates or
like white southern people opento some of these things.

(12:39):
So you do have like a shiftingpolitical landscape that they're
having to contend with.
That they did contend with, Ithink we would argue very
successfully that when we lookat like the Civil Rights Act of
1957, and the so in, in someways, like, oh, great, you know,
that created a civil rightsdivision of the Justice

(12:59):
Department, uh, wasinvestigating voter suppression.
But you have officials thatsupported that Civil Rights Act
trying to calm segregationistsdown by, by saying to them like,
don't worry.
This doesn't have anything to dowith schools like this.
Just this, this is only aboutvoting.
It's like, okay, well first ofall, if those aren't just
connect A, but b, that's grossto be like, don't worry, you can

(13:23):
still be racist everywhere else.
We're just looking at likethat's, I think that's the part
of what's frustrating is eventhese successes are so tempered
or the white people advocatingYes.
Appease.
Yes.
And when we, when doesappeasement with fascist work.
It doesn't.

Mandy (13:40):
finding out

katy (13:41):
No, I don't, I don't like it.

Mandy (13:45):
at Yeah,

katy (13:46):
it does, but it does force people like it did.
I wanna acknowledge that all ofthis did force some shifts, and
at least there's this one linethat I, I thought was
interesting.
This is top of page 180 7, thatdespite their best efforts,
segregationists could stillblame black grassroots
mobilization on outsiders.
They just could no longer be init.

(14:06):
So maybe they still are tryingsome of the same narratives, but
they, it, it, they're justemptier and emptier.
And the fact that their lies isjust more and more obvious, the
degree to which that actuallymatters.
I don't know.
But it's, it's, you know, thereis some kind of pulling back of
the curtain at this time andjust kind of making people.
Like the, you know, revealingwhat the, the roots are.

(14:28):
But this is also the era, andthis is what we talked about in
the last couple chapters ofwhite women, especially being
really strategic at coding theirlanguage so that people, they
could expand their tent and getpeople behind them who wouldn't,
who wouldn't otherwise have beendown with super, super
explicitly white supremacistlanguage.

Mandy (14:45):
Yeah, I loved that line too.
Also highlighted in my book andit seemed to me like just part
of an ongoing in this chapterwho McCray just makes those
teeny little digs with

katy (15:01):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (15:01):
literary

katy (15:02):
I love them.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (15:04):
absolutely loved her.
Like she just kind of unleashesin this last chapter with of

katy (15:10):
Yep.

Mandy (15:11):
calling out

katy (15:12):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (15:13):
that's happening here.
But you mentioned yes, that theCivil Rights Act like some of
the argument was this isn'tgonna affect anything but
voting.
But then it talks about how thatargument lost all of its
credence just a few weeks later.
When The Little Rock Nine

katy (15:31):
Yeah,

Mandy (15:32):
to integrate Central High School in 1957.
This was so horrific.
I mean, I know we've learnedabout this.
I remember the Little

katy (15:41):
this is one of the most famous stories.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Mandy (15:44):
Yeah.
So this is in Little Rock,Arkansas, obviously, and this is
when nine children wereintegrating Central High School
where they had like the NationalGuard first called out to like
keep them from being able to goin.
But then that was challenged bythe federal government and they
were ordered to help them getinto the school.

(16:08):
What I didn't remember is itsays that on September 23rd,
1957, mobs of screaming, angrywhite men, women and children
threaten the black teenagers asthey entered the high school.
Then it says their day wasshort-lived as threats of
lynching.
Another violence led the localpolice to sneak them out of the
high school, so they didn't evenstay.

katy (16:31):
No, it, it is just so wild.
And just a point ofclarification here, especially
in a moment where we have thepresident sending federal troops
into US cities, right.

Mandy (16:41):
Mm-hmm.

katy (16:42):
it was the governor who had the National Guard
preventing them, and thenEisenhower overrode that and
sent in the hundred and firstAirborne Division.
So it just I actually just wroteour senators asking to explain
why they, under what criteriathey think it's okay for the.
President sent in federaltroops, and I actually cited

(17:02):
this, you know, work thishistory to say, here's when I
think it's okay.
And, and it, this does notqualify, you know, what, what
the president is currently doingin no way, shape or form is
justified.
And I, I wanna hear your, like,how you explained it.
Of course, one of the reportsback was absolute garbage.
And so I wrote back a much morespecific email about why it's

(17:22):
absolute garbage.
We'll see if I hear back.
But yeah, I think the, the factthat troops had to be involved
and I think that actually.
So there's a few parts of thischapter that I think are, are
really important to highlight.
And one is that this is a momentwhen the narrative of being
occupied

Mandy (17:40):
Mm-hmm.

katy (17:40):
starts to take over.
So, white people, white women,especially one of the, the kind
of new tactics is to presentthemselves as the victims.
And you talked earlier aboutpresenting themselves as the
minority that actually neededprotection and supporting
minority rights as long as itmeant for white people.
And then this idea that thatthey were, there were an

(18:02):
occupied state.
And so at one point even this isa woman, Florence Stiller's
Ogden, who had a column in theClarion Ledger, and she was
talking about the tyrannicalmethods of the reconstruction
era and of the dictatorships ofHitler, Mussolini, and Stalin,
which are being used today inArkansas, meaning the federal

(18:24):
government.
Sending troops to defend blackchildren, trying to integrate
and protecting them from whitepeople threatening to lynch
them.
That that, the irony, I don'teven know if that's the right
way to describe it, is sobananas to say like, we are
under the dictatorship ofHitler.
It, it like, makes your brainhurt.

(18:44):
It's just so, it's so wild tothink no, no, no, no, no.
Hitler learned from us how tocommit genocide and cultural
genocide and eugenics.
And so then you using that totry to gain sympathy for your
own eugenics beliefs and systemsand violence is in it's, it's

(19:05):
in, it's, I know we keep sayingthis is infuriating.

Mandy (19:07):
It's,

katy (19:09):
I don't understand how people say these things with a
straight face.

Mandy (19:12):
yeah, it doesn't make, except for that, it's just the
obliviousness.
It's not the obliviousness.
The entitlement

katy (19:20):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (19:21):
I think is also another major theme here.
I actually highlighted this partin the middle of page 180 9 is
talking about another

katy (19:30):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (19:31):
these were the more moderate women who were trying
to keep public schools open

katy (19:37):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (19:37):
like giving into some of this anti segregationist stuff.
But she makes the comment that,that this group was filled with
middle class white women whoexpected to be heard and to win.

katy (19:51):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (19:51):
wrote like in the margin, this should be like

katy (19:56):
I

Mandy (19:56):
white woman mantra.

katy (19:58):
mean, it is,

Mandy (19:59):
just this.

katy (20:00):
yeah, like a.

Mandy (20:01):
gonna listen to us and you're gonna do what we say and
there's no argument against us.

katy (20:08):
No, I think that combination of class and gender
and race is really important andsomething that, that gets
highlighted.
So yes, you have this likevictim nar narrative that
absolutely has carried on today.
And so this is painting whiteSoutherners as victims of an
overreaching federal governmentand military, this behemoth
federal government unresponsiveto the wishes of its white

(20:29):
citizens.
So it's absolutely a critique offederal overreach because it's
infringing on white supremacy.
I mean, that's, that's it.
You know, there's that narrativethat that's a big tent
narrative, but then you havethis more specific class and
gender group within that.
And so McRay is talking hereagain about Central high School

(20:51):
and that there's this mother'sleague that starts up, which is
a group of working class women.
And they, they, they're onlycool with threatening physical
violence, like yelling at verbalharassment.
They, they didn't.
You know, it was, it's so, it'sjust like these distinctions are
so bonkers.
But, um, MC Grace says theMother's League took their

(21:11):
politics to the streets loudly.
Some said hysterically and withmuch media attention, they
produce flyers, educating voterson school board elections, work
to unseat moderate school boardmembers and circulated
petitions.
They passed on the license tagnumbers of members of the group
that was trying to protect kids.
Did they pass these on to theArkansas State Police, who were
friendly to the segregationistcause they worked with little

(21:33):
monetary support without thepolitical capital of middle
class husbands and with nosleep.
I mean that they, they reallydid a ton of creepy, creepy
work.
And were really using their ownkids as pawns, like as political
pawns in this.

(21:54):
And Ki McGray said, and Ithought this was really a.
It's super important that notonly what they were fighting
for, but how they were, whatthey were modeling for their
kids.
And it says that the lessonthey're teaching their children
is that preserving whiteness andracial segregation mattered more
to their parents than a highschool diploma, a college
scholarship, or even Fridaynight football.

Mandy (22:15):
That's saying something in the south.

katy (22:17):
I mean,

Mandy (22:18):
Well, and

katy (22:19):
eh.

Mandy (22:19):
that's reinforced again when they start to talk about,
this push for compulsory schoolattendance

katy (22:26):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (22:27):
the things, one of their tactics to integration was they
just all pulled their kids outof school

katy (22:35):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (22:35):
were gonna integrate.
So then there came in these likecompulsory school attendance,
like bills and policies, I'mguessing.
And I thought when I read that,I was like, oh, I guess I did
not think of a time of like whenthis happened.
Like

katy (22:51):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (22:52):
attending school a certain number of days and like
all of these you have to putyour kids in school somewhere,
truancy laws.
When did all of that come into

katy (23:00):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (23:01):
like this again, it's just putting that piece of
history together as to when thisactually happened.
But it does say so.
they're talking about someparents in a school in
Charlottesville area.
I think it says, parents inPrince George County received
anonymous letters that deemedopen schools and compulsory

(23:22):
attendance laws, the principalobjectives of integrationists
and urged opposition.
PTA, voted that no education wasbetter than an integrated
education.
And I wrote in the margins, cutoff your nose to spite your own
face.
I

katy (23:38):
Oh, totally, totally.
Yes.
And knowing that the, you know,whether or not they were working
explicitly in concert, like theworking class women that were
like out in the streets kind ofrabblerousing and then the
middle class women who weren'tin the streets, they had
different tactics like theircolumns or these were the women
you talked about who were, whojust like expected to win.

(24:01):
And were using use leveragingpower to have teachers
reinstated.
Little Rock's Women's EmergencyCommittee lobbied for the
schools to reopen.
They were filled with middleclass white women.
These were the ones who expectedto be heard and win.
They argued that closing schoolswould erode economic investment
in Little Rock.
They supported stop thisoutrageous purge effort to
reinstate teachers fired for lyintegration of sympathies.

(24:22):
They did not have to turn totheir children or to the streets
to wield their politicalinfluence.
Instead, they could mobilizetheir civic organizations, their
fellow club members, and theirpolitical capital.
They drew on their experiencelobbying, petitioning, and
advocating for public educationto build a movement working with
business leaders, uh, themoderates on school boards and
whites zoned for other schools.
And so you had the.

(24:43):
Just these different tactics.
And even when they were grumpywith each other, they're still,
you know, arguing for the samething.
And so this idea of no educationbeing better than an integrated
education, meaning you're, Ithink the, she uses the word
severed, like severing schoolingfrom school houses

Mandy (25:02):
Yes.

katy (25:02):
make, like having homeschooling being an option.
Private schools be an option.
And, and that this was actuallylike an evilly genius sort of
way to win, was to change whatit meant to win.
So maybe they couldn't win thatcourt case and maybe they
couldn't keep segregation legal

Mandy (25:23):
Mm-hmm.

katy (25:24):
But here she says on page 1 91, if proponents of massive
resistance had wanted onlyabsolute school segregation in
every district, then openschools in most districts with
limited integration in somewould've meant their defeat.
If massive resistanceencompassed a broader political
agenda of white supremacy thatcould continue with token
integration, then its defeatappeared much less complete.

(25:45):
The PTA meetings characterizedby parliamentary procedure and
politeness had disguised whatwas really a way through for
open school advocates andsegregationists, those who
embrace moderate rather thanabsolute resistance, continue
the grassroots work for someracial segregation integration.
I think this is so important.
So even when we say like, oh,working class women had these
tactics and these goals andmiddle class women had these

(26:07):
other tactics and these othergoals, and that actually
sometimes they were at odds witheach other.
They were all still dedicated towhite supremacy and that
actually expanding what it meantto win and seeding some ground
actually opened up lots of otherspace for them to continue.
I that was chilling.

Mandy (26:26):
right.
So even when.
white children started to attendintegrated schools.
The white women of thosechildren still worked for all
the ways we talked about before.
In continuing this, Jim CrowSouth, they countered it with
textbooks, with public historycelebrations, with the essay

(26:46):
contest.
I mean,

katy (26:48):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (26:48):
the same thing over and over again.
And this gets into the part thatI was like,

katy (26:55):
Oh,

Mandy (26:56):
the essay contest.
Oh, the essay contest.
I swear.
What I would not give to findout what the topic of that damn
essay contest that I

katy (27:04):
that you won

Mandy (27:05):
was

katy (27:06):
The DAR essay contest.

Mandy (27:09):
I would die to know.
I

katy (27:11):
Oh my God.
Well,

Mandy (27:14):
but

katy (27:15):
it, maybe it was a topic like this, why I believe in
social separation of the racesof mankind or subversion and
racial unrest, or why thepreservation of state rights is
important to every American, orwhy separate schools should be
maintained for the white and neraces.
Those were some of the essaycontests in Mississippi that
thousands of studentsparticipated in.
And one,

Mandy (27:36):
8,000

katy (27:37):
so many.
And in 19 60, 1 of the winners,Mary Rosalind Healy of Madison,
Mississippi, wrote It is up tome as a product of the struggle
of my forefathers as a studentof today and as a parent of
tomorrow to preserve my racialintegrity and keep it pure so
that that's the nature of thosei'll essay contests.

Mandy (27:56):
so in 1960 she won this and I was like 1960.
Is this bitch still alive?

katy (28:03):
Oh, we did the same detective work.
Please tell me you found herFacebook page because I found
her Facebook.

Mandy (28:08):
Yeah.
Yes.
I was like,

katy (28:11):
Oh my god.

Mandy (28:12):
Get me on Google.
Is she still alive?
And she is so still alivebecause

katy (28:18):
Yeah,

Mandy (28:19):
92 and 1 93, there's actually a picture of the

katy (28:22):
yeah,

Mandy (28:23):
winning

katy (28:23):
yeah.

Mandy (28:24):
And there's a picture of her

katy (28:26):
Yep.

Mandy (28:27):
and when you open the Facebook page and you see her
pictures today, it is

katy (28:33):
It's the same.
It's the same.
Yeah.

Mandy (28:36):
ah, it's her.

katy (28:38):
You were smarter than me because I even initially Googled
her obituary because I was like,oh, I'm curious, you know?
But no, no, no, no, no, no.
She's definitely still alive.
And I like, I thought, oh myGod, what if you are her
grandkid and you're sitting,you're taking like a women's
studies class, you know?
Maybe that's what you're into.
Because you know, like familiesare complex and I don't assume

(28:59):
that everyone in her familyagrees with her, but you open
your page and you see yourgrandma.
Featured as this essayist, why Ibelieve in this social
separation of the races ofmankind.
And you talk about intermarriageas an incurable epidemic and you
see your grandma's face, likemaybe she knows her grandma well
enough to not be surprised, butI I, I really was trying to

(29:22):
wrestle with like, what do,what, what is it?
I don't know that, just thinkingabout the fact that this lady is
still alive.
Does she know she's in thisbook?
Does, do her children andgrandchildren know that she's in
this book?
Her posts are clear.

Mandy (29:38):
Yeah, I, well, that was my question.
Like, is she, does she stillbelieve all of this?

katy (29:43):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (29:43):
of, most of her stuff is very benign old white woman
stuff.
But she does have a couple aboutlike

katy (29:50):
Mm.

Mandy (29:51):
Southern, reenact war reenactment thing, it seems
like.
And

katy (29:56):
Oh yeah.
I.

Mandy (29:58):
bunch of like American flags with eagles on them, and
mean, I

katy (30:03):
don't know.

Mandy (30:05):
like MAGA Trump supporting

katy (30:07):
Mm.
It, it, like, I don't, I don'tknow how far down you Doug, but
I, and, and I don't wanna belike creepy and stalkery, like I
didn't, you know, send this ladya message.
You know, what am I, what werewe gonna say?
You wanna come on and talk tous?
I dunno.

Mandy (30:24):
I kind wanted to be like, are you aware of this?
And do you still believe this?
I really wanna ask her like,

katy (30:32):
I don't know.
Maybe we should.
Well, but I, I was starting to.

Mandy (30:35):
this lady again.
I was just like, also like,okay, I don't wanna start this
thing where she gets liketotally trolled, but kind of I,

katy (30:42):
But

Mandy (30:42):
eh,

katy (30:42):
I don't think that's trolling.
I think that you put this outthere.
You, I am curious, I am curiousif McRay reached out to any of
the people who are still living.
There's something kind of nicesometimes about being a
historian who's just dealingwith people who are long gone.
You know, you don't have tonavigate some of these
interesting ethical quandaries.
Maybe they're not even ethicalquandaries and it's obvious
like, oh, you're a racist.

(31:03):
That's a problem.
But they, all of her posts, Ithought, oh, now I am.
Now I'm using my qualitativeresearcher hat coding all the
posts that she has.
They were all about themilitary.
Abortion being bad, her southernheritage being Christian.
It was this package of things.
And then she was posting,especially a lot of the abortion

(31:24):
stuff reposting the posts of awoman and now I can't think of
her name that I had texted you.
She's got like 10 kids, but herhusband cheated on her and they
got divorced and she's like abig time Christian social media
influencer woman who is verymuch ensconced in all of these
things, like purity.

(31:45):
And it was, her website ishysterically beige, like it is
the beige mom, which, you know,I have a major problem with.

Mandy (31:51):
Yep.

katy (31:52):
we, this was like quite the rabbit hole to go down, but
I, I really, I don't know.
I really did wrestle with like,what do you, yeah, like what,
what do you do with this?
Person who's still here, and,and maybe she wouldn't say this
essay title, but I don't, justbased on what she's posting, I

(32:16):
don't think it's, I don't thinkshe's removed from that logic
and this history.
It is all connected.
If anything, one of the bigtakeaways was just a reminder
that when we read aboutsomething that happened in 1960,
most of those people are stillalive.
And it's not to say that peoplecan't grow and change and evolve
for sure, but it's just toremind people that there, when

(32:38):
we think about history, it's notlike 1960 ended and all those
people disappeared and it was anew crop of people.
Like those are all still actorsin the mix.
Raising kids, influencingpeople, you know, taking actions
in the world that they're,they're, a lot of them are still
around, but I, I did have amoment where I was like, oh my

(32:58):
God.
Like, what?
What do you do if.
You are the grandkid who opensthis up is loving this book.
And then you turn the page andthere's Grandma Mary.

Mandy (33:08):
I know.
And the thing that I, I, we'vegotta ask McCray about this when
we talked to her is like, sheput her picture in here.
There's not a lot of graphics inthis book.

katy (33:19):
Yeah.
Yep.

Mandy (33:21):
is, this is a choice to put this picture in here.
And I do really wonder if she'dreached out or tried to talk to
her or heard from her.
Or any of her descendants

katy (33:32):
name names, hold people to account.
And I don't think you have to dothat.
You, you don't need to do it inlike a, like public, you know,
what are those called?
The stocks where someone getslike, you know, I, I don't, I
think to me the vision of ananti-racist world is not one
where there's like.
It, it, I think this is sort ofwhat gets propped up as the

(33:54):
straw man argument.
Like, oh, you just want genocidethe other way.
Like they want white genocide.
It's, that's not what I'madvocating for.
I don't, I, but I, I thinkthere's a difference between
like vigilante justice andholding people to account to
say, this, this name names, youwrote this, you said this.
What?
Like, how have you changed?

(34:15):
Have you changed?
What, what do you, I, I don'tknow.
That feels different to me thanthis.
Like, it's the differencebetween, I now we're down this
other rabbit hole of cancelculture and if that exists and
what that is, but it's likethere, if there's consequences
for you being shitty, that'sfair.
Like that's, that's the world.

(34:37):
Like if you are feeling.
Ostracized or excluded becauseyou said something horrible and
people are horrified.
That's a natural consequence.
That is not the same asexclusionary laws that are
intended to discriminate againstpeople based on their identity
in a or their membership In somegroup, those are not the same
things, and those have beenflattened and equated.

(34:59):
And so now it's, you know, likethis again, a victim narrative
like, well, no, I'm the victim.
Like, no, you are just beingheld to account for being shitty
and participating in a shittysystem that's different.

Mandy (35:12):
and also like this perspective, and this comes up
later in the chapter and I wrotesomething in the margins I said
like, people just really fearwhat they are.

katy (35:24):
That's just it.
Like you, you're only looking atyourself in the mirror and just
thinking like, I don't, like, Idon't, I don't wanna be treated
the way I've treated people.
Then stop treating people thatway.
Right.

Mandy (35:33):
assumption that

katy (35:35):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (35:35):
way that people think

katy (35:37):
Right,

Mandy (35:38):
that's what the other side wants to do, is

katy (35:41):
Yes.

Mandy (35:42):
and subjugate you like you have done to other people.
It's this inability to see theworld in any other way that's
just so sad and disgusting atthe same

katy (35:55):
It's both.
Well, let's talk a little bit.
Another name I wanna name isSarah McCorkle, who's a teacher
that I wanna do.
I tried to do a deeper dive onand I couldn't find out much
more about her, but she was realhyped up and set on making sure
that, you know, there were lotsof activities and curriculum and
all sorts of ways to make surewe were still teaching kids

(36:15):
racism.
And don't worry, there's the1961 Civil War centennial.
'cause, you know, white womenand anniversaries and
commemorations are the biggest,the biggest red flag we have
This the south.
So McCorry was involved in a lotof things.
I don't know if she was involvedwith the centennial.
I, I'm sure she had something todo with these anniversaries, but

(36:36):
Mississippi allotted$2 millionto have like celebrations of the
Civil War, which is$20 millionto.
In today's money, which is somuch money, and especially when
you think about the state ofwhere else that money could have
gone to help people.
It's wild.
So of course the celebration in1961, again, 1961,

Mandy (37:00):
Yes.

katy (37:00):
only 19 years before we were born, by the way.
It's like not that far from us

Mandy (37:07):
but not that old.

katy (37:08):
and not exactly but of course the celebrations ignored
the emancipation of slaves andthe wartime contributions of
black Americans.
Black activists contended thatthe centennial really served as
a promotional event for whitesupremacy and resistance to the
federal government.
I think that is a fairassessment for sure.
But that it was framed as like,you know, of course all the same

(37:30):
old, like state's rights and thefederal government is
overreaching and all that thingthat I loved this line that it
was a, the centennial was apublic sanctioned affair for
white self-indulgence.

Mandy (37:39):
loved it.

katy (37:40):
Yep.

Mandy (37:41):
Underlined, LOL next to it.
Like white self-indulgence isthe definition of so much going
on right now.
Trump's stupid fucking goldballroom.
His

katy (37:53):
or the, the Oval Office.

Mandy (37:55):
that he

katy (37:56):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (37:56):
Office, the whole, ugh.

katy (37:58):
Well, here's where this, yeah.
I mean, all of this is so.
Current, but the white women,GRA says, managed to either one,
erase the history of slavery ortwo, render it benign.
What are we hearing today?
Jillian Michaels.
I hear you.
I see you Either erase it ormake it benign and all the stuff

(38:19):
that's going on in theSmithsonian today.
The, oh, this, this was insane.
So this was, um.
In Washington DC and I'm tryingto see who she's quoting here,
but I think it's Francis Ogden.
One of the women we've beenfollowing in the book writes
about how when little chocolateprops Negroes came on school

(38:39):
trips to the American HistoryMuseum, a Smithsonian docent
emphasized what the white peoplehave done to build this country.
But not in an offensive way.
I thought, Jesus, like what?
Like how you can have all thosewords together in the same thing
and say, but I'm not beingoffensive.
It.
And just even specifically withthe Smithsonian and knowing
what's going on today to say,well, let's focus on what all

(39:01):
the white people have done tobuild this country.
And that's not offensive.
That's just fact.
It, it just I like, it's hardto, it feel, I feel very
untethered like this.
This is the norm.

Mandy (39:16):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:17):
the Smithsonian being able to have exhibits or like the
African American History Museumon the mall, which is fabulous
if you've never been, it's sogood like that.
The existence of that museum isthe exception.
And it's very easy to gettricked into thinking that
that's the, like, it's this bigbeautiful building that's on the
mall.
Like it's easy to think, oh,that's, that's just like, that's

(39:39):
the stronger foundation.
And it, I don't think it is.
I think the, the, the, theerasure of these histories or
making them seem benign, makingthe history of white supremacy
seem benign, that I like readingthis.
I'm like, well, that's, that'sthe norm.

Mandy (39:55):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:56):
Yes.

Mandy (39:57):
Definitely.
For sure.

katy (39:59):
And it, and even though you have you know, activists and
historians trying to counterthose ideas that these white
women are, are formidable forcefor sure.
And.

Mandy (40:13):
surprised.
So this gets into the story ofRuby Bridges.
And the

katy (40:17):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (40:17):
Orleans

katy (40:18):
Yep.

Mandy (40:19):
integration of school, and everyone's seen the pictures
of

katy (40:23):
Yes.

Mandy (40:23):
darling child

katy (40:25):
Yep.

Mandy (40:26):
by hateful, horrific, screaming white people and

katy (40:31):
Yep.

Mandy (40:32):
white women.
I didn't realize is that shesays that these white women
stood outside their neighborhoodschool for nearly a year

katy (40:42):
Yes.

Mandy (40:43):
yelling at bridges day.
A first grade child

katy (40:49):
yep.

Mandy (40:49):
stood

katy (40:50):
Yep.

Mandy (40:50):
with their aprons on their babies, on their hips,
screaming at a child for a year.

katy (40:59):
Horrible signs.
Even like little coffins withblack baby dolls in them, like
horrifying things.
I didn't realize it was JohnSteinbeck who coined this, but
they're known as thecheerleaders and he called them
crazy actors playing to a crazyaudience, which I think is
exactly right, but also like notto be dismissed, you know, like,

(41:20):
yes, they're crazy actorsplaying to a crazy audience, but
when those are the people inpower, like God help us all, you
know?

Mandy (41:26):
Well, and not only did they harass her, the other part
of it was that they harassedtheir white neighbors

katy (41:33):
mm-hmm.

Mandy (41:34):
to walk

katy (41:34):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (41:35):
to school, reported them to their employees, encouraged
their children

katy (41:40):
Yep.

Mandy (41:41):
bully.
Former schoolmates who keptattending integrated schools.
So even

katy (41:46):
Yep.

Mandy (41:47):
parents who were trying to continue sending their kids
to school at this time could notescape.
They lost their jobs.
They had their electricity cutoff.
She says they had their homesvandalized.
So it was like.
You.
No one was safe in this

katy (42:02):
Yep.
Right,

Mandy (42:03):
way to get away from the harassment of these women.

katy (42:08):
right.
Well, and, and again, thinkingabout the different class.
Nature of white women using whatthey had at their disposal.
So middle and upper class whitewomen had like political
influence or, you know,influence in terms of like
getting teachers removed orgetting people fired or you
know, being able to influencelegislation, et cetera.

(42:30):
But these women, um, McGray sayswithout the economic security or
stability to escape to thesuburbs, because of course
that's also an option for womenof means is to just simply move
to gated communities where theycan do whatever they want, you
know, and continue to besegregationists.
These white working class womenprotected their investment in
white privilege where they couldin their homes, in their schools

(42:51):
and on the streets.
Yeah.
And then just capturing theirattention, uh, the like media
attention in that way, which isinteresting with the media
attention like that.
Both, I think.
Helps increase the pressure ofpeople who are horrified by what
they're seeing, but also linksyou and connects you to people
who support what you're doing.

(43:12):
You know, it has this doubleeffect,

Mandy (43:16):
Mm-hmm.

katy (43:16):
this, this motto though of we have to save the children,
which I am pro.
Like, okay, we're also recordingthis like a day after another
horrific

Mandy (43:28):
School shooting.
Mm-hmm.

katy (43:30):
in a, this is like, not only in a school, but in a
church.
It's like both, both thingscombined.
It's, the details are stillunfolding.
It's, I am so ashamed to be anadult right now and that adults
aren't doing anything.
Like, it's just, just, this isthe life that we have in the

(43:51):
United States is this is justthe risk you run when you go
anywhere or do anything.
It's awful.
I.

Mandy (43:58):
But to put that next to protect the Children mantra

katy (44:02):
Right.

Mandy (44:03):
women then and today keep trying to push.
And it's like, what is thenumber one danger to our child?
What is

katy (44:10):
That's right.

Mandy (44:11):
What is the number one cause of death of children in
America right now is gunviolence.

katy (44:18):
Right.
So when you say Save thechildren, I don't believe you.
You know, like, I I, that thatrhetoric, it's not that I, it,
it sets it up like, oh, ifyou're opposed to that, you
don't wanna save children.
No, I actually wanna savechildren that I'm not using that
as code for promotion of whitesupremacy or promotion of gun

(44:38):
rights or what not even gun.
Right.
Oh my God, I hate that framing,like promotion of guns, period.
Full stop.

Mandy (44:43):
Mm-hmm.

katy (44:44):
That, yeah, I just don't believe them.
It's just, it's, it's all forthis.
Deeper creepier crusade and I,there were some connections that
I was even surprised about, likethere one group of white women,
this was the Sarah McCorkle,that teacher founded this

(45:04):
organization called PatrioticAmerican Youth,

Mandy (45:07):
Mm-hmm.

katy (45:08):
and it was focused on cultivating young conservatives
in the early 1960s.
It again, like uses this codedlanguage so it's avoiding
explicit white supremacistlanguage and it's telling
potential donors that it's allabout like growing a new crop of
conservative young people, butthey shared office space with
the John b society.
Like all these connections ofthe foundations that are being

(45:30):
laid decades ago are allliterally connected, like
literal office mates, you know,in this same building.
And then just some of the thingsthat they were advocating for.
It, it, it's just too, just toomuch.
Like they were objecting topictures of Hiroshima after the
atomic bomb because they mightpromote fear and compromise and

(45:52):
attitudes towards the Cold War.

Mandy (45:54):
Yeah.
Again, just like suppressingactual things that happened and
it says to that, so one whitewoman suggested to governor JP
Coleman.
history books were most guiltyin promoting a continual,
concerted attack on our form ofgovernment, our social standards
on capitalism and ourConstitution, and introduce ways

(46:18):
and means to I improve socialrelations among the races.
Nothing could be more dangerous.
Not even gun violence, sheconcluded the books that have
been placed in our schools

katy (46:30):
that's, that's the piece I wanted to hit today of all days
is like, fuck off, like.
I, I don't, I, you don't givetwo shits about kids if you

Mandy (46:42):
and

katy (46:42):
actually think

Mandy (46:44):
about it.
Not even gun.
They don't even give a fuck.
Like not guns.
It's the books that you'reputting in and that these
history books they think arepromoting these attacks on our
government.
Well, I'm sorry, truth hurts.
Like history tells the story.
That this is the bullshit thathas been causing problems.
I'm sorry.
If you don't like it, likeyou're rewriting, it doesn't

(47:07):
change that.
That's what the truth is,

katy (47:09):
and, and just, yeah.
And then the shit, like the, allof the, the ways that it's
shifting what even is consideredappropriate.
So at the point where you can'teven talk about the human toll
of the atomic bomb,

Mandy (47:20):
Mm-hmm.

katy (47:21):
because that's un-American to point that out.
Like what, what's even left totalk about at a, you know, like
they're just, if you.
Are, are putting more and morethings.
And that, that actually remindedme of the purge of documents
from the National Archives indeleting references to the Enola
gay because it had the word gayin it.
It's like, good god.
Like when you go on thisideological witch hunt for

(47:44):
things like what's even left,what even gets left in the wake
of that?
It's just wild.
Yeah.
The other, well, there's a lotleft in this chapter, but
another one of the connections.
But the office mates with theJohn Bch Society and just
knowing what, what literalorganizational networking they
were doing at this time in thesixties.
But it was also reallyinteresting to read about, this

(48:06):
being around the world, a amoment of, of people throwing
off colonial.
Power, you know, the, the, theend of, of empires in a lot of
cases, like nations gainingsovereignty around the world,
especially Africa and Asia.
And so the, the internationalconnection, this is something I
want us to, to really go intoand maybe even have a whole

(48:27):
season dedicated to the globalshadiness of white women because
there's just so much, you know,we're very focused on the United
States but even white women inthe us like these citizens
councils, which were the quoteclassier, K, k, k, basically who
were very.
Much connecting the dots betweeninternational events and what

(48:47):
was going on at home and reallyworried about decolonization in
and being very opposed todecolonization in places and
comparing what was happening inAfrica with what was happening
in the south of the US and, andsaying, this is one person, Mrs.
Sam Davis, so who knows what heractual name is.
Arguing that both Africanconflicts in the civil rights

(49:08):
movements were examples of aworldwide effort inspired by
communists to subjugate whitepeople.
So again, it's this like victimmentality that we are the
minority under threat and it'sanother way to connect foreign
policy with places that weremajority people of color, that
that connects to threats athome.

(49:29):
And just it, it's like again,this fearmongering and making
connections with all theseissues and then having ways in
for people that weren'tnecessarily on ramps before.
And the, like, all of the thingsthat they're against, like
critiquing the Peace Corpsbecause what if white kids go to

(49:49):
into the Peace Corps and fall inlove and get married and quote,
go native, or what if they getabused and terrorized?
It's like they're either gonnafall in love or they're gonna
get raped.
Like those are the only twooptions and they're both bad.

Mandy (50:00):
Yeah.
And

katy (50:01):
mean, I honestly have qualms with the Peace Corps, but
it's not for those reasons, youknow?

Mandy (50:06):
well, and this brings up again that horrible column that
Francis Sellers Ogden had calleddis and that, that we

katy (50:14):
Oh God, yes.
Yep.
Yep.

Mandy (50:16):
and this whole narrative that in these colonial nations
that are breaking away, thatagain, that black Africans are
unfit rule their homeland.
So it just goes back into thisentire narrative of white
benevolence and the white peopleare taking care of the black
people and the black peoplearen't ready.

(50:39):
There's this whole doctrine oflike

katy (50:41):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (50:41):
not being ready to take

katy (50:43):
Yes.

Mandy (50:44):
themselves, which is like, that implies that you will
think there's ever a time wherethey would be ready, and we

katy (50:49):
No, obviously not.

Mandy (50:50):
bullshit as well,

katy (50:51):
Well, we know because you're also mad that you don't
have servants, because now youcan't, if you don't have
servants, you don't have time todo charity work because you have
to do the housework.
And so then it's actually badfor the community to not have
slaves and to not have servants,because then the wealthy white
women don't have anyone to.

(51:12):
Do their labor so that theycan't do philanthropy, like the
logic leaps that they're making.
The connections are just sobonkers.
And again, just the things thatthey're mad about, like the
pictures of Hiroshima damage, orFrancis Ogden was mad about the
UNICEF Christmas cards becausetheir challenging white
Christian traditions, she wasmad at trick or treating for

(51:32):
UNICEF because it's in likemaking kids communists.
Just like it cannot be a smallenough thing for them to be mad
about.

Mandy (51:39):
the fricking Starbucks Christmas cups, like debacle,
where they got, people get soangry that they're just red and
there's no like, you know, SantaClaus or Jesus references or
anything.
Again, like you said, there'snothing.
Too small for them to demonizeand go after.

katy (51:59):
Ogden's a real piece of work.
I keep trying to think aboutwhich of these white women,
like, not that I need to rankorder them, but I, you know,
just they keep switchingpositions for who I loath the
most.
But she, I thought this wasreally interesting for us
because our tagline at thebeginning, I think we used the
word ladies, white ladies makinga mess of things.
I think we say that at the veryor intro, but that Ogden was

(52:21):
pissed about the word.
Lady and the, and made thesedistinctions.
So when she's talking about someof these quotes are just so
juicy.
So here she's writing now thatthe commies and the do-gooders
have got the lady, meaning theblack woman out of the kitchen
who's going to do all the civicimprovement, PTA Garden club,
patriotic Society, and SweetCharity work for the lady that

(52:42):
the white women and the parlorused to do.
And of course, GRA says likethis ignores the vast church,
social and civic civil rightswork undertaken by black women,
obviously.
And also those white women weretheir quote charity work words
aimed at very, very differentends than most of the black
women that were working.
But she is questioning if,quote, the former maids released
from domestic service, renderthe same community service once

(53:04):
so freely given by the mistressof the house setting white women
up again is these paragons ofvirtue.
Like, oh, we have to doeverything we can to protect
them,

Mandy (53:13):
And

katy (53:13):
but as.

Mandy (53:14):
black women aren't enslaved anymore, then they're
just sitting around on welfareroles and not doing anything.
They're not

katy (53:21):
Yes.

Mandy (53:22):
communities.

katy (53:23):
Right, right.
Oh, it's so bad.
So she is giving thisintroduction to a woman
professor, to the MississippiHistorical Society, and she says
she hesitates to call her a ladybecause quote, when my cook
comes in and says, Ms.
Florence, Ms.
Fl, there's a lady in thekitchen to see you.
I know this is someone seekingto get on the welfare roles, but
when she says there's a woman inthe parlor, I know it's a

(53:45):
colonial Dame, U-D-C-D-A-R, orsome historian or writer.
So she's saying like, lady forOgden is a term replete with
racialized class and politicalmeanings, meanings that no
longer worked as blackresistance challenge, white
cultural supremacy.
So it made me think, is it goodthat we're using the word lady
as a way to like stick it toFrancis Ogden or,

Mandy (54:05):
Yeah.

katy (54:05):
you know I don't know.
Language is so fascinating.
Gosh, there's so many otherthings in this.
There's.

Mandy (54:13):
like, how many groups these women made?
And I'm like, what?
How did they have the time?
I don't, I mean, there was likethe we, the people Congress of
Freedom, and then the women thatweren't involved in that.
We, the people, and they alsohad like other groups in other
states, there's just, there wasone, like one group called the

(54:33):
Paul Reveres.
Ladies

katy (54:35):
Yes.
Yes.

Mandy (54:37):
make a women's group and name it after a man.

katy (54:40):
I know, I know, I know.
Exactly.
Oh my God.

Mandy (54:43):
I mean so many different groups, but they all had these
similar missions.
They were all starting to pivotand use this different language
of constitutionality.
And state's rights

katy (54:58):
And protecting children and pro, you know, protecting
Christianity.
Yes.

Mandy (55:03):
this is where also where the whole religion thing gets
brought into it that I wrote inthe margins.
This is skipping ahead a littlebit, so we may need to go back,
but

katy (55:14):
No, that's fine.

Mandy (55:15):
on page two 10,

katy (55:17):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (55:18):
There's another women's group that kicked off their
second year with a meeting inMontgomery, calling on mothers
and school children, believersin prayer and followers of the
Christian faith to join and toperfect the national
organization.
The addition of religion drew onnational conversations occurring
in the aftermath of the SupremeCourt's 1962 decision to ban

(55:39):
school prayer.
So this is where it comestogether.

katy (55:44):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (55:44):
prayer was a way, as Cornelia Dabney Tucker put it,
one of the other women we'vebeen following

katy (55:50):
Yep.
Yep,

Mandy (55:51):
the hillbilly and the city dweller, the Southern Bible
Belt and the Quaker NewEnglands, the Wash Foot Baptist,
and there were SocraticEpiscopalian.
So it was this unifying thing inthe conservative movement, which
was

katy (56:05):
Yep.

Mandy (56:06):
intentional, which is why,

katy (56:08):
Yep.

Mandy (56:08):
I think this all the time, like how do they, how does
the GOP, the Maga, the TeaParty, how did they get.
of these people that you thinkshould be pro-public support,
like

katy (56:21):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (56:22):
who are in the lower end

katy (56:23):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (56:24):
the, you know, economic spectrum to be so hardcore
supporting these conservativeprinciples and

katy (56:33):
It, it's not even just economic, it, it's also racial.
Like I, right now there, thisjust came up that there are
efforts to get bible studies inschool in our community, and
some of it is being led by blackChristians.
So it's not, it's even a way tocross other kinds of lines and
to have these.
Combinations of people that youwould not suspect would be in

(56:58):
bed together.
But it's a way to promote thesecauses.
So, you know, what's dangerousis to think if you are allied
around this one issue, likelet's say Christianity, and yes,
you want the Bible studied inschool, but you don't support
racism.
It's like, well, good luck.
Good luck with that alliancebecause like we've seen what
these people do.

(57:18):
They would rather not haveeducation.
You know, it's like, don't,don't think for one second,
it's, we've talked about Jennyand Clarence Thomas.
It's like, I don't, people canbe, if they're being ignorant or
bigoted or they're promotingtheir thing over, like their
dominant identity over somebodyelse, don't think that protects
you from not being the target ofthe people that you were in

(57:43):
alliance with.
You know, I, it just doesn'twork that way.
When, to your point about howdid they have time.
Ogden talks about demanding thatwomen forego their appointment
at the Beauty Parlor.
Your Bridge Club meeting, yourGarden Club convention to study
the constitution, expose the UNas an organization that eroded
American sovereignty, call forthe reform of the electoral
college, begin a membershipdrive.
Ogden is saying to women,organize, organize, organize in

(58:05):
every county, every city, everyvillage, every hamlet.
And that I, it's like honestly,what they did or used those
organizations to do double duty.
So it's not just Bridge Club,it's our racist bridge club.
You know, like we're gonna doall of the things,

Mandy (58:20):
Mm-hmm.

katy (58:21):
and be, and also I was like pretty explicit about like,
when to talk about things incertain ways and when to not
talk about things in certainways.
Like, this isn't an accident.
They, they knew what they weredoing.
There was one part.
This is the, oh gosh, what's herfirst name?
Now I'm thinking of Dean Kane,but it's

Mandy (58:39):
Oh,

katy (58:39):
his non-relative.
Mary Dawson Cra.
Kate, thank you.
That now I'm on page two 11.

Mandy (58:46):
Okay.

katy (58:46):
but I said her quote looked like a Trump truth Social
point post because

Mandy (58:51):
I have

katy (58:51):
it had so many random capitalized words that she said
this, she was president of theWCG, which is one of these other
organizations that now I

Mandy (59:03):
Government.
Yeah.
Women

katy (59:05):
Yes.
Which

Mandy (59:06):
Government.
Yep.

katy (59:07):
they're, they're, this is God, one of like 87,000
organizations.
Their goals were to defeatcommunism.
Good luck, ladies.
But also, you're doing a goodjob.
Okay.
The full recognition of thebasic integrity, responsibility,
and individual initiative, theAmerican people.
That is such coded garash, bythe way,

Mandy (59:23):
Yeah.

katy (59:23):
the full support of a free enterprise economic system at
home and abroad.
Constitutional government,government maintaining the
separate integrity of the threebranches of government, which
here I actually marked what.

Mandy (59:33):
What

katy (59:33):
What does that Right.
Or like what would she think of?
Like if, do you really thinkthat, or you just saying it, a
foreign policy that recognizesit's not possible to buy
friendship.
What's that about you?
Petty bitch.
And then an economically andmilitarily strong America,
recognizing that the free worldcould survive without the un,
but not without the us.

Mandy (59:51):
Oh

katy (59:52):
Damn.
And then a return to God inaffairs and functions of
American, regardless of thebeliefs of other nations.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So that's what theirorganization's about.
She is calling on women to fightthe 1964 civil rights bill with
all your might.
That's a quote, because ourchildren's lives are at stake,
this bill is a deliberateattempt to break down morality.

(01:00:15):
I will shout the words that arein cap and the general wellbeing
of our people by placingillegitimate negro children side
by side in classrooms of thestate with white children whose
parents have absorbed thestate's moral and ethical codes
rearing theirs and wedlock.
Bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar.

Mandy (01:00:32):
Mm, mm-hmm.

katy (01:00:33):
Yes.

Mandy (01:00:34):
Yeah.
I underlined the same thing andthought the exact same thing,
like, oh, oh, this, thiscapitalization of bullshit and
yelling, propaganda started farbefore Twitter.

katy (01:00:45):
Yep.
Yep.
Oh, oh, yes.
I mean, it, it just tracks sohard.
Um, but of course this is again,just like.
The package of protectingchildren, opposing sex ed,
opposing public childcare,opposing national standards,
connecting these proposals orpolicies to communist
machinations and the abdicationof maternal authority.

(01:01:07):
Like we, this is from the WCGtwo.
They say it's the woman'sresponsibility to preserve the
good life for her children life,liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness, protection of thefamily.
This is a woman's medium.
We have every right to fight forit.
Every incentive.
If the men fail, we shall carryon.
We are the mothers of men.
We are the builders of thefuture.
We have a duty to perform.
Let's be up and about it.

(01:01:28):
And here I was thinking so muchabout the girl boss trope that
we've talked about before, andlike girl power and just how.
Dangerous.
That is when it's not coupledwith anti-racism because you
have this, the, you know, Cainand Denese women who were
involved with, with WCG, MaryDawson, Cain in particular.
Okay, so this is what she says,like, come on ladies like, but

(01:01:50):
it's not everybody and she'sinsulting women of color.

Mandy (01:01:54):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:01:55):
She is demeaning them constantly.
So it's not actually about likematernal power at all.
It's white maternal power nestedwithin white supremacy.

Mandy (01:02:07):
I also thought with that exact quote the challenges, my
initial worldview of these whitewomen.
'cause when we first startedabout doing this podcast, it was
in our abhorrence to thestatistics

katy (01:02:21):
Yeah.

Mandy (01:02:21):
white women voted for Trump.
And my view was these are womenjust like following their
husbands.

katy (01:02:28):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (01:02:28):
hanging on and coat tailing patriarchy.
But it's like, no, these womenwere in the forefront.
These women were actuallydriving their husbands.
They were irritated that theirwhite men weren't doing more.

katy (01:02:41):
Right.

Mandy (01:02:42):
taking the reins and taking the, like whip and like
getting their

katy (01:02:48):
Yep.

Mandy (01:02:48):
order.
They were

katy (01:02:49):
Yep.

Mandy (01:02:50):
followers or beholden.
They were

katy (01:02:53):
No,

Mandy (01:02:53):
this just as much, if not more so in sub arenas than the
men were.

katy (01:02:57):
oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
The last little piece I wantedto point out with WCG that gave
me the legit goosebumps in theworst possible way is their plan
of action included breedingdistrust in the mainstream
media.

Mandy (01:03:13):
Yes.

katy (01:03:14):
True Americans could not rely on the mainstream media,
which I'm like, it's 1960.
Oh, that's like Walter Cronkite,I guess, like

Mandy (01:03:21):
three mainstream media people at all.

katy (01:03:25):
And I thought, wow, that it's 19, whatever, you know, 19,
the early 1960s that this wasone of their specific action
items was to breed distrust inthe mainstream media.
And that instead of, you know,whatever the schools want you to

(01:03:45):
read, or especiallyuniversities, because God knows
that's communist breedinggrounds, that you should read
the works of Patriots whobelieve in the constitutional
government and only invitespeakers who can educate them on
various constitutionalviolations.
They distributed a newsletterwith a recommended reading list
that included the Dan Smootreport out of Dallas, the DAR
stuff like, you know, theseother publications.

(01:04:06):
It, it really was like, wow, presocial media, this, all this
infrastructure was being builtand this ecosystem existed.
It's just on steroids now.
But that's, that was there DanSmoot I'd never heard of.
I did a little.
Like rabbit hole on him.
He was an orphan boy who grew upin Missouri, became an FBI

(01:04:27):
agent, and then a pundit and hadthis like radio show and
newsletter.

Mandy (01:04:33):
Oh, the

katy (01:04:33):
he, he,

Mandy (01:04:34):
Jones.

katy (01:04:35):
oh, oh, and it, it, he, he went to school on a scholarship.
It's one of those classic, like,I pulled myself up by my
bootstraps.
When you look at his life,you're like, how is that?
What, how you explain whathappened to you?

Mandy (01:04:46):
Yep.

katy (01:04:46):
But he, yeah, he's like the Rush Limbaugh of the 1960s.
So they just, the fact that theywere already like, no, come into
this echo chamber.
And that's the only place that,that's the right place to be.
You cannot trust this mainstreammedia, but of course, think
about the mains quote,mainstream media showing
pictures of Emmett Till's.
Casket or showing thephotographs and, and video

(01:05:09):
images of what was going on withthe Birmingham Children's March.
And like, of course, they'regoing to advocate that people
not consume that media

Mandy (01:05:16):
Yep.

katy (01:05:17):
that's where people might have a conscience or might
think, oh shit, this isn't whatI wanna be aligned with.
So it's, it's this verydeliberate attempt to get people
to isolate themselves.
I mean, it is a cult.
Like I don't, it's all the

Mandy (01:05:30):
it's the whole George Orwell 1984 quote, like their
final command.
Like, do not trust what you seewith their own

katy (01:05:37):
Yes,

Mandy (01:05:38):
Like

katy (01:05:38):
yes, yes,

Mandy (01:05:40):
listen to the propaganda we are feeding.
You don't look at the actualactions happening in the world.
It's so horrifying that it'sbeen so effective for so

katy (01:05:50):
Yep.
Totally.
So this, the WCG then is the,you know, don't trust the
mainstream media.
There are other, there are otheraction items were to emphasize
parental authority over thehome.

Mandy (01:06:02):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:06:02):
Get involved in schools and get religion, Christianity
in particular, and a and aparticular brand of
Christianity, let's be clearinto public institutions.
It's like, yep, there it is.
There's the blueprint, andthat's what we're doing.
And then to, to couch it all inthis colorblind, conservative
political discourse.
Oh, this was wild too.
I couldn't believe it was likecreeping me out.

(01:06:24):
So this was something I wantedto talk to Nick Ray about.
Like, she wrote this book, Ithink it's 2018.
When did it come out?

Mandy (01:06:31):
2018.
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:06:32):
So we're, you know, al almost 10 years removed.
How much of this is coming backso hard and fast to down to
specific issues like fluoride inthe water.

Mandy (01:06:43):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:06:44):
That was page two 15, that the, there were campaigns with
these organizations to stop thefluoridation of water.
Limit mental health legislationand stymie various urban renewal
policies.
I couldn't, the fluoride in thewater, I was like, oh my god.
How, like, of course that'sconnected, but I, I've been
wondering like, why is that thisissue that people were able to,

(01:07:07):
you know, get behind RFK becausethey don't want fluoride in the
water.
It's like, oh, of course.
Because it's like a publichealth initiative that's helping
kids of color be healthier, sowe've gotta oppose it.

Mandy (01:07:16):
Yep.
Yeah.

katy (01:07:17):
why

Mandy (01:07:18):
Yep.

katy (01:07:19):
I just, I think the most depressing thing about this
whole chapter, it's probablyseemed really like slapped out.
Like it's all these differentthings that she's linked way
better than we have probably intalking about it.
That it all makes sense togetherin the chapter, but it's, the
overwhelming takeaway was how inthis moment when there are these

(01:07:39):
bigger victories and bigger.
Moves for legislation or forpublic, like you can't be
publicly racist in the same waywithout consequences.
Like there are these moves thatthe tactic then I don't, I
always use tactic and strategyprobably the wrong way.
I know they're not exactlysynonymous, but the, that it

(01:08:00):
meant that they had to shift,but it, it was a shift that
served them so well, which wasjust to expand what counted as
victory.
So here this is on page two 15.
Mick Gray says, if maintainingsegregation in schools, buses
and voting had been the onlygoals of segregationists, then
the defeat of massive resistanceand segregation could have been

(01:08:21):
announced in the mid 1960s.
And I do think that's where.
We have to just be so vigilantabout how we understand anything
that is a victory

Mandy (01:08:30):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:08:31):
don't say like, yay, it's over.

Mandy (01:08:33):
Yep.

katy (01:08:34):
yay, Obama got elected.
We don't ever have to worryabout racism again.
Like, what the fuck?
No, that's not what this is.
Because that's not how thepeople who don't like that
election or who don't like thatpiece of legislation, that's not
how they're thinking of it, youknow?
And we could say the same forlike same sex.
Marriage or like, there's a lotof issues that we could look at
for this.
In the midst of whatcontemporaries and historians

(01:08:54):
had come to call massiveresistance, many white women
shifted their work, theirpolitical language, their
strategies, and perhaps eventheir ideals.
They might no longer mobilizetheir communities to sustain a
rigid legal segregation, butthey could always continue to
cultivate grassrootsconstituencies for a new
conservatism that could houseboth their devotion to racial
segregation and whitesupremacist politics.

(01:09:16):
Having learned from the decadesof their political activism,
they accepted legislativedefeats as an unpleasant
regrettable matter.
Of course, they also proceededwith the knowledge that white
supremacist politics gained itsstrength from multiple fronts,
of which legislation was justone.
They had remade segregationagain and again, and they
believed that they could do itagain by stressing political

(01:09:37):
conservatism, not race.

Mandy (01:09:40):
Yeah.

katy (01:09:40):
Mic drop McRay.

Mandy (01:09:41):
Yeah.
Yes.
And they have, they have done itagain, which also got me to
thinking about like.
What we talk about next withthis.
Like how do, how do we take thelessons from how effective these
women were in pushing theirnarrative order to more
effectively work against it?
And

katy (01:10:01):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (01:10:01):
initial like just knee jerk reaction is to just try to
counter all of these argumentsand convince people of how
ridiculous they are.

katy (01:10:11):
Yeah.

Mandy (01:10:12):
I think to agree to a degree like that helps in
education.
But also their main strength Ithink is in formulating this
very, very distinct vision ofthe world very clear agenda for
what they wanna accomplish.
And I think

katy (01:10:31):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (01:10:32):
you have to counter it the same way.
Like we have to get very clearwhat our viewpoint is about the.
that we believe in and that wewant to progress an agenda and
push that just as hard as thesewomen have spent generations

(01:10:52):
pushing a white supremacistnarrative.
And I think that's what notgreat at.
We just don't have, there aresome factions and, but it's just
not as clear as this has beenfor them this whole time.

katy (01:11:05):
Yeah, I, we are the octopus.
And just like embrace that andbe super, super clear.
I, I think a couple things aboutthat.
One, yes.
Like a clear vision and I thinkthe, the folks that have been
really successful in, ingetting.
Support behind them are offeringthat really clear vision and

(01:11:27):
being really honest andtransparent about it.
You know, I think that'simportant just from like an
ethical point of view.
Again, I would be a terriblepolitical strategist because I'm
way too earnest and simple inhow I think of all those things,
but I, I just, I don't know.
I, I think that being honestabout the vision you have and

(01:11:47):
how you're trying to get there,people appreciate that, even if
they disagree, you know, likethey, there's, there's value in
just being transparent aboutthat.

Mandy (01:11:55):
Yep.

katy (01:11:56):
What I'm wondering is, this is the very last light
this, this part to me was likethe part of a horror movie where
you think it's ended and they'vekilled the monster, but then
there's clearly being set up fora sequel, you know, and there's
like a hand that comes out ofthe dirt

Mandy (01:12:14):
horror cruxes that have been hidden in different parts
that you have.

katy (01:12:18):
Exactly.
Where you're like, don'tcelebrate yet, but this is when,
so in some ways you could saylike, oh yay, there's this,
these legislative defeats andlike, we're celebrating.
But these women are just like,yeah, that's not the only thing
we're worried about.
Like we'll be, you know, we'vegot other pots on the fire
that's not our only pot.
And then also them.

(01:12:39):
Knowing how much deeper whitesupremacy really runs.
And so she, this is the end.
The Ogden Kane Tucker, theyunderstood the possibility of a
national groundswell of supportfor racial segregation,
anticipating the northerntrajectory of the black freedom
struggle.
Ogden awai, which she imaginedwould be the unveiling of the
national face of whitesupremacy, anxious to see how

(01:13:02):
those who had critiqued massiveresistance and white southern
segregationists would respondwhen they had to deal with their
own system of segregation.
Ogden noted Riley, what's goodfor the children is good for the
grown folks.
And it gives me goosebumps evento read that out loud

Mandy (01:13:17):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:13:17):
I don't think she's wrong.
Like, that's actually a prettyspot on assessment it and an
indictment of the north that Ithink is absolutely warranted.
So.
There.
I hear you on the need for likea really crystal clear vision.
Like For sure.
I also, this is especially forwhite progressives, like stop

(01:13:41):
kidding ourselves about how deepthis goes and how deep it goes
even in ourselves, you know,just, this is the not in my
backyard attitude where if youare, or you say like, oh, I, you
know, want this X, y, or Zthing.
But then when it happens in yourneighborhood, you're suddenly up
in arms about it, like, mm.
Then you don't actually wantthat thing.
So

Mandy (01:14:01):
Yep.

katy (01:14:01):
I, it's really hard to be that honest with yourself and
you know, really take a long,hard look.
But I think that that's what I'mkind of wrestling with at the
end of this book is I, I think.
These women are ethically,morally, absolutely bankrupt,
awful, heinous people.

Mandy (01:14:22):
Yeah.

katy (01:14:22):
And in terms of their work as political strategists and as
people who mapped out andunderstood the political
landscape, I think they weregeniuses.

Mandy (01:14:33):
Yep.

katy (01:14:34):
So that is like, ugh.
It just, it gives you theheebie-jeebies.
And so it's to say, what do weneed to do?
And by we, I mean white womenwho do not wanna be part of
this, you know, phenomenon.
How can we get our shit togetherbetter to undermine the work of
these women?
You know, how, what is ourethical responsibility?

(01:14:56):
How can we be better politicallystrategic and get out of the way
often sometimes of the workthat's being done?
How can we support it?
Because I don't.
Think they're wrong.
One question I had for you, andmaybe this is a place to, to
end, I know we still have theconclusion to read, which is a
pretty substantial conclusionbefore we interview Elizabeth

(01:15:18):
Gillespie McGray, which I'm soexcited about, but as, so maybe
we're seeing this happen to, butokay, so these women have this
tactic of colorblind language,right?
Which I do actually think somepeople buy into and genuinely
believe.
It is just all these otherissues.

Mandy (01:15:39):
Okay.

katy (01:15:39):
So what happens when you're, the people who've
supported you, or even like thechildren of that movement start
to buy into that colorblindness.
It are those people that can bekind of peeled off of that
movement.
Like it, so that's, that wastheir.
What seems to be, and at leastat this point in the story,

(01:16:02):
seems to have been a veryeffective move that Ogden Kane,
like all Dossett who am Iforgetting?
The Tucker, like they, theychose to say like, well, let's
use colorblindness.
Did that just buy them time?
Is that wearing off?
Was, does that have seeds oftheir own defeat in that
strategy?
I'm curious what you think aboutthat.

Mandy (01:16:24):
I mean, I think it's, as you said, like been super, super
effective and I don't know ifyou, I think part of the.
Fight against it is illuminatingyou cannot separate that,

katy (01:16:38):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (01:16:39):
issues.
You can't let them colorblind.
Like you have to point out theways that they're very much
rooted in

katy (01:16:48):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (01:16:50):
attitude, like to just not allow the separation of
those arguments because theycan't be.

katy (01:16:56):
Yeah, no, that's really powerful because it, yeah, it,
it's, it's revealing what wethink of, I, I think as like a
bundle of conservative platformissues together, revealing the
ways that they are actuallyforwarding the project of white
supremacy, that that has to bereckoned with.

(01:17:18):
So you, if you don't, if yougenuinely don't wanna be racist,
then you need to understand howthese policies that you say you
support and can disconnectactually can't be disconnected.
And so you have to reckon withthat.
And then I'm hoping that youchoose to stay committed to
racism, and you aren't likethese white parents who are
like, I guess I just wannaeducate my kids because I'm more

(01:17:39):
committed to racism than school.
You know,

Mandy (01:17:42):
Yep.

katy (01:17:43):
That's, well, I, the last chapter is this conclusion where
Mcgras really gonna focus onBoston Women against Busing,
which of course, Boston being inMassachusetts, being in the
north, and, and really prettyegregiously obvious violent
resistance to schooldesegregation efforts.
And that's, that's where we'regoing to end.

(01:18:04):
But just as always to everyone,thank you so much for listening.
We are going to be able tointerview Elizabeth Glassby
McRay.
So anybody who has questions andwants to put something on our
radar to ask her, please send usa note.
We'd love to hear.
Thanks for your patience as wesuss this out.
I feel like we're, we arealways.
Horrified, infuriated.

(01:18:26):
Like

Mandy (01:18:27):
All the things.

katy (01:18:27):
it's the same emotional reaction all the time.
And maybe that gets tiresome tolisten to, but I, I just
appreciate everybody who'slistening along and reading
along that this is reallyimportant.
And I think you and I do believethat there, there is at least
some group of people that thosedots haven't been connected for.
And when they are connected,that will matter and will

(01:18:49):
change.
And I, I think there issomething if we do think about
this, I dunno, maybe this is aquestion for Mick Gray, like
whether this is a usefulanalogy.
Like if we do think about thishistory unfolding as like a
series of movies, like part one,part two, the sequel, the the
part three, part four of likesome sort of horror movie where

(01:19:10):
it's like the big bad is beingrevealed at the end for some
like final showdown.
You know, like what, where arewe at in that process?
And I think there is some.
Value and benefit in having areal honest assessment of what
the threats actually are.
Even though that's the scariestpart of the movie, it's actually

(01:19:30):
empowering to not be tricked orfooled anymore.

Mandy (01:19:33):
Yep, well, I'm excited to read the last part of this and
then to talk to her.
'cause there's so many questionsand it's

katy (01:19:41):
Yeah.

Mandy (01:19:42):
just been a lot of really interesting mind opening,
thought provoking kinds of stuffthat she brings up.
So,

katy (01:19:50):
Again, essential reading.
I actually sent this book tosomeone in my family to say
like, you have to read this bookin this moment as a white woman
because it just explains somuch, and you can no longer look
away and think these things aredisconnected because they're
not.

Mandy (01:20:03):
absolutely.
All

katy (01:20:05):
Yay.
All right.

Mandy (01:20:06):
week.
Bye.

katy (01:20:07):
Yay.

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