September 12, 2025 • 37 mins
Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell discuss the concluding chapter of Elizabeth Gillespie McRae's book, 'Mothers of Massive Resistance.' They explore the roles that white women in Northern and Southern United States played in maintaining segregationist policies and resisting racial integration from the 1920s to the 1970s. The chapter ties historical segregation efforts to contemporary issues and how these women evolved their strategies to appear race-neutral while upholding systemic racism. The discussion includes historical instances of organized resistance, connections between Northern and Southern segregationist women, and the critique of historians' portrayal of these efforts. The episode also highlights the importance of understanding systemic racism and addressing the actual root causes rather than superficial symptoms.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (00:14):
Hello?
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (00:15):
How are you?
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (00:16):
Uh, I'm
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (00:17):
I
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (00:17):
It's gorgeous fall weather.
It's my favorite time of year
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:21):
know.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (00:22):
I love like a crisp.
Chill in the air and a littlebreeze to wear like sandals with
pants
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:29):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (00:30):
Feels really good to me.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (00:31):
I know when you finally can get
out of the, like sweat drippingdown your backstage of summer.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (00:36):
Ugh, it was a swampy summer too, so,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:39):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (00:40):
I appreciate not having a sweaty
butt when I go outside for sure.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:45):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (00:45):
This, I'm actually going to go for a
long walk with our dog.
That is my goal to get outsideand do a little movement.
I've just been feeling like alot of.
Like a lot more anxiety anddepression than normal.
I think it's more than anything.
Not
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (00:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:00):
state of the world is helping in any
way, shape, or form.
But, I was like, okay, is uh,like getting outside around
nature and fresh air and somemovement is, is definitely not
gonna hurt.
Like
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (01:12):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (01:12):
help right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Now I had to remind myself ofhormones yesterday'cause I was
in this conversation where I wasgetting really irritable and I
just wanted to unleash all ofthe things that I was trying to
filter in my head.
And I was just like, you'regonna start your period in the
next couple of days.
Shut your mouth.
Like, don't,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (01:33):
to
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:34):
don't go there.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:35):
Check yourself like, oh, this isn't
real,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:38):
Yeah.
Uhhuh.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (01:39):
it's real in a sense.
But yeah, to be able to lift upand be like, oh my, the level of
rage I'm feeling right now isnot appropriate to act on.
I
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (01:48):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:49):
Check it a little
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:50):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (01:51):
but if someone in my neighborhood
sees me like screaming as I'mwalking through neighborhood,
that's probably
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (01:57):
It's all okay.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:58):
Yeah.
Nothing to see here.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (02:00):
It's all okay.
It's all okay.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (02:02):
Friday.
Uh, well, we are finally on theconclusion.
I say finally, I think this hasgone really
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (02:08):
I know.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (02:09):
loved this book.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (02:10):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (02:11):
but we are at the concluding
chapter, which moves into theseventies.
Of Mothers of MassiveResistance, which is a fabulous
book by Elizabeth GillespieMcRay, who we are talking with
next week,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (02:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (02:25):
wait for that
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (02:25):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (02:26):
This was great.
Again, it just ended not on ahigh note because all of this
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (02:30):
No.
katy-guest290_1_09-05- (02:30):
actually so depressing, but it just is
such a good book.
mandy---she-her-_1 (02:35):
Enlightening note, it's an enlightening note.
I think like a lot of things aresolidified in this chapter.
I think a lot of our motivationfor doing what we do is brought
up in this chapter.
So yeah, it was very interestingto see'cause.
This whole book is focused onthese key women in the south who
(02:57):
are running these prosegregationists political
movements.
And this chapter ties in theprediction that Ms.
Florence Tiller's Ogden madewhen she said, when this moves
to the north, like you're gonnasee basically.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (03:14):
And, and that she was right, like
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (03:16):
She was right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (03:17):
that white women would join their
cause and stop arguing so hardfor, for desegregation efforts.
And it, the very first pagehere, migra says that her
prediction emerged because shewas a well-informed, politically
connected conservative femalesegregationist embedded in
national networks, committed tovarious forms of segregationist
(03:38):
policies.
But I loved this line.
This was another just classic.
Mick Ray, a little lovely snark.
Her anticipation of nationalresistance to racial equality
was not mere the bitterexpression of an aging woman who
watched her political effortsmeet defeat nor the words of a
white Southern apologist.
Even though she was both zing.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (03:58):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (03:59):
That's a historian mic drop there.
Uh, but it, it really shifts ourattention and the conclusion to
the north and the, to somedegree, the ways that the
southern women were actuallyvery much connected and
supporting and offering adviceto these northern women, but
really exploring this predictionin saying, ah, she was totally
(04:19):
right.
You know, this is absolutelywhat happens in cities all over
the north.
She starts off by.
Distinguishing between deur andde facto
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (04:30):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (04:31):
which I thought was really important.
What did you take
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (04:34):
I thought that was very
interesting too.
So there's the two argumentsabout why segregation exists,
part of it, which is the wholeJim Crow order in the south.
That's the de jour part of it.
That's the legal.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (04:49):
laws that say, you cannot live here.
You cannot drink this water, youcannot
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (04:53):
you,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (04:54):
this pool.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (04:54):
you cannot sit on the bus.
You cannot do this.
Like, that's the part.
But then there is always thisargument of the defacto, which
is just quote unquote, natural.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (05:05):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (05:06):
People just choose to live in their own
communities.
They choose to have theseneighborhoods or these
affiliations, and that is theway people want it to happen.
It doesn't, it's
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (05:20):
It
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (05:20):
the way things are.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (05:21):
it's just kind of the way that it
happened.
Yeah.
I think that distinction, andshe really unpacks, it's not
natural, obviously, she putsthose in hard quotes for sure.
That it's both de jore and defacto are clearly the product
of, she says local policies andlegislation like redlining,
federal loan policy, urbanrenewal plans, highway
development, naturalsegregation, it turned out was
(05:43):
not natural at all, but it seemslike it is.
the white people specificallyit, and it lets them feel
morally superior to.
people in the south where it wasde jour
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (05:57):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (05:58):
It masks and hides the way that
white supremacy works.
It also made me think of thecritique of the phrase natural
disaster
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (06:06):
Mm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (06:07):
so many.
Of the catastrophes that getlabeled that way in the news are
not natural at all.
They're the result of manmadeclimate change, or they're the
result of like horribleagricultural practices or
engineering practices.
So it's very much caused, butthose root causes have been
(06:29):
masked, and so it seems it'sjust an accident.
It's just natural,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (06:33):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (06:33):
really, it like.
these white women of off thehook
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (06:37):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05 (06:38):
thinking, I'm not racist,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (06:40):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (06:41):
but I'm going to, you know, fight
all of these attempts to makethings more equitable or more
accessible.
I'm gonna fight them
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (06:48):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (06:49):
a lot and I'm actually gonna to
use racism often to fight them.
But, say that it's not becauseof racism that I'm fighting it
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (06:56):
Well, and I think Florence Ogden had
seen.
How it would be used because shesaw the transition in the south
of overt racism to more of thecolorblind politics and then
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (07:10):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (07:11):
this agenda that could, on the
surface look not racist.
So by talking about things likeshe says, parental authority,
constitutional integrity,limited government, national
sovereignty, school choice,which.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (07:24):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (07:25):
All continues in the conservative
agenda today.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (07:28):
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (07:29):
these women could say those were the
things they were focusing on.
They were worried aboutcommunism, they were worried
about the constitution, but theywere clearly not racist.
They say to themselves.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (07:41):
Uh, but, and yet, like all the
evidence mounts up contrary to
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (07:45):
oh yeah, and in very overt ways
too.
Like sometimes not, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (07:50):
Like if you are yelling the N word at
kids, then yeah,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (07:54):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (07:54):
racist
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (07:55):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (07:55):
like that.
Or even if maybe you aren't, butif a lot of the people in your
organization do, and
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (08:04):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-0 (08:04):
supporting your organization.
your organization is racist.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (08:08):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (08:09):
know what else to tell you.
You know,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (08:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (08:12):
and I, I wrote in the emergence here
just why, are we, and by wehere, I mean like white liberal
people just so bad atidentifying root causes.
And of course I think we havebeen grappling with the answer
to that question all the yearsof this podcast.
But just the importance of beingable to understand structural
(08:32):
systemic.
Racism, sexism, ableism, likeall the isms, how it works.
And then we also shouldn't besurprised that the efforts of
these women is to make sureyoung people do not learn those
things, so that it makes itreally hard for adults to
understand the world throughsystems and structures.
So they can say, oh, it's not,I'm not racist that we don't
(08:55):
have any explicitly racist laws,so therefore racism is gone.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (08:58):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (08:59):
and that's it.
Then it's a victory for thesewomen who've been fighting for
segregation and let go of theexplicit need to call it
segregation or to call itracism, they let go of that to
keep it going and how, just howsuccessful they've been.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (09:16):
And we also bypass.
Any real efforts to solve rootcauses, like you're saying, when
we don't actually address themand we get to gloss over them
with these sorts of efforts.
But so she talks about all ofthese associations that can get
formed again, like these womenhave so many fucking committees
(09:37):
mid
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (09:37):
I know they do.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (09:39):
like,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (09:39):
I love some of these acronyms, by
the way.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (09:41):
oh my gosh, my favorite was the
nag.
We'll get to that one.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (09:45):
Yes,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (09:46):
That one, the National Action Group.
That was a great one.
But one of the first ones shetalks about was the Concerned
Parents Organization, which was,I love this, led by three middle
class men.
But the work was sustained bythe work of white mothers,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (10:00):
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09 (10:01):
including Mrs.
Charles Warren, no actual namefor herself.
And.
This is the argument that comesup.
Like she was noted for herwillingness for black parents to
buy in her neighborhood and sendtheir children to scroll with
her children, but she continued.
If anyone thinks they're goingto bust my children across town
(10:21):
without a fight, they'redreaming.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (10:24):
This, this is the crux of it.
And this is in Charlotte, whichis still, I would say the south.
But you were, it's like movingfor the North we're the first
kind of busing, it was postBrown versus board of education
that said school public schoolshad to desegregate and all of
these districts we've talkedabout in past chapters stalled
and dragged their feet andparents were putting up
resistance and so.
(10:45):
Busing ends up becoming a courtordered way to make sure that
the Supreme Court ruling wasenacted, so to say, in schools
where more than 50% of the kidsare kids of color, we're going
to bus kids there.
There's like the tiniest part ofme that understands not wanting
kids to be on a bus for an hourone way.
There's this Spec of logisticalconcern that I actually could be
(11:11):
more sympathetic to.
But first of all, it's notremotely about that.
So let's not pretend that's evenan argument any of them were
making.
It's not, not even close.
And then I was also pushingmyself to think what
inconveniences are we willing toendure to make it right?
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (11:28):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-0 (11:29):
structural systemic oppression is not going
to be resolved in a convenientway that it's just not
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (11:35):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (11:35):
suck it up, you
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (11:37):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (11:37):
it's a very much like a not in my
backyard kind of attitude
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (11:42):
talked about.
Yeah, and I was thinking thesame thing, like some of these
arguments which were obviouslynot their underlying arguments,
but the ones they were making onthe surface, like I, I do have
sympathy for some of them, likewhen she gets to talking about
how the working class
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (11:59):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (11:59):
moms were irritated at the suburban
moms.
'cause they're like, sure youcan fight against this'cause
this isn't affecting you.
Like we are women who have to goto work to support our families.
We don't have the means to moveout to the suburbs where we
don't have to be affected bythis, and now they're gonna
start busing our kids, whichmeans I have to get to work
(12:20):
before they can get on a bus.
So who's gonna take care ofthat.
And I understand that concernand that like loss of control
and that fear that that's gonnaimpact your kids negatively.
'cause it's one thing to saylike, I want to make sacrifices
to try to make this better andmore equal.
(12:42):
When you realize that you'rehaving to have your children
make those sacrifices too, thatyou're saying you're gonna do
this, then I get.
The initial hesitance to dothat.
But the question is like youjust said, what are you willing
to do?
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (12:57):
I also call bullshit on it, is
that there, in all of thischapter, there's not
organizations of black parentssaying, we don't want, you know,
it's not, it's specificallywhite women who are pissed off.
And then very quickly, whateverother arguments they're making
dissipate when they are.
Yelling things like at onepoint, she says at, at times,
(13:20):
and now this is when she'stalking about white women in
Boston, which we'll get to in aminute, but she said they stress
their opposition to busing andnot school integration.
Again, like I'm not racist,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (13:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (13:31):
but, um, that they could not even
pretend to reconcile oppositionto busing with the rejection of
racism.
And that's because.
You have this, like this woman,Elvira Pixie Paladino,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (13:46):
Hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (13:46):
elected member of the Boston School
Committee yelling, you fuckingwhite trash you.
Fuck N-word.
You're an N word lover.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (13:54):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (13:55):
yelling that at people on a playground.
So
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (13:58):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (13:59):
I don't believe you.
You know, like it's, it's justover and over again.
ways that they acted and the.
The rhetoric and the act, the,just the violence that ensued,
belies their, their realrationale for not wanting this
to happen.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (14:16):
And it, yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (14:17):
can call bullshit on
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (14:18):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (14:18):
not racist lo logic.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (14:20):
And it's also not getting to the
base of where these workingwhite mothers should be
irritated, which is the factthat we don't have any
structural support for workingmothers, like there's not be mad
at capitalism that you can't,like
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (14:38):
right, right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (14:38):
of, you should be in solidarity with
other people over this insteadof blaming it on, you know, them
trying to bust your kids.
How about you blame it on thefact that you can't afford to
live without.
Working this way, you know, youcan't, yeah.
There's just so many other waysto attack it.
There's so many other ways toimagine how you could have
addressed it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (14:59):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (15:00):
Without it being this.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (15:01):
That's right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (15:02):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (15:03):
know, again, when, when you look at
the organizations that arepopping up and they're
partnering with the K, k, K,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (15:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (15:08):
should be like a
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (15:09):
It's a red flag
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (15:10):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (15:12):
that's.
And
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (15:13):
Yep.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (15:13):
maybe we shouldn't have that alliance
and try to justify itwhatsoever.
But there's so many hypocrisiesin here too, like going back to
the CPA there was a wife of thevice chairman, Jane Scott.
She said that a parent's duty toprotect the innocence of her
children superseded herresponsibility to follow man's
law.
(15:34):
And what that triggered for mewas.
Okay.
How come that works for you inyour white woman world when that
argument is quickly shut down byanyone who wants to use it to
justify like people immigratinghere and ignoring the laws of.
Immigration because they'retrying to protect their
(15:55):
children.
They're just trying to protecttheir children.
So why doesn't that supersedethe laws of man?
But that's not anything that'swilling to be conceded on that
side.
Like it's just convenient theway that you can weaponize
motherhood for yourself, but notlet anybody else have that.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (16:13):
And you always point this out like
to what ends?
Are you even ignoring the laws?
If you are ignoring them inorder to continue to uphold
white supremacy, that is notjustified.
You know, you
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (16:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (16:25):
a lot, like extreme evil is not
the same as extreme
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (16:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05- (16:28):
breaking a law that's unjust because it's
upholding.
Systems of violent oppressionagainst people is not the same
as breaking the law because youwanna continue to do violence
and oppress
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (16:41):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (16:41):
course, like getting everyone to come to
consensus about how to sortthose actions is never gonna
happen.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (16:49):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (16:49):
it's clear for me, you know, this
was, now I'm on page 2 21.
We're back in, in Charlotte thatthe white parents are anti
busing.
But of course they're alsotalking about curriculum.
The curriculum didn't seem tospark as much as the busing, you
know, but it, people were stillmad about it.
And that they, white parentsboycotted stores, kept kids at
(17:11):
home, had rallies, joinedWildcat Strikes, shut down the
city bus system, and it was sucha weird.
Upside down version of readingabout the civil rights movement
and the tactics that people usedthere to advocate for justice.
That it's like this weird mutantversion of those tactics to
uphold white supremacy.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (17:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (17:35):
Oh, these other organizations, we've
got nag,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (17:39):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (17:39):
Action Group.
We've got Save Our Schools, SOS,we've got the CPA.
Elizabeth McRay talks about howso many of these had racially
neutral innocuous
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (17:50):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (17:50):
parents for Freedom, citizens against
busing, you know, but then whenyou poke at it a little bit,
it's like, yeah, they'repartnered with.
k, K or they are having GeorgeWallace come and speak, like be
the keynote address at their
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (18:04):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (18:05):
Um, that's when you start to make
some of these connections.
Uh.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (18:10):
Yeah, she, she said, many opponents of
busing invoked the link betweenschool integration, interracial
relationships, and miscegenationas they destroyed property
blocked roadways, enchanted, doaway with the N word and pigs
rhyming with each other.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (18:28):
with pigs,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (18:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (18:30):
Again, like this is not just about
constitutional
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (18:34):
It's like she's, they cannot, it says
they could hardly suppress thewhite supremacist rhetoric that
characterized many of theprotests.
You just can't pretend it's not.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (18:43):
The other example of that that she
gives were the nags that hadorganized pickets.
I, this cracked me up that theyblock buses with baby strollers
chain themselves to bus garageGates held a 620 mile mother's
march to Washington, DC wherethey gathered at the Washington
Monument proudly wearingmonogrammed aprons that attested
to their roles as homemakers.
(19:05):
But, at the same time, schoolbuses were set on fire
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (19:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (19:09):
invited George Wallace to be their
keynote speaker.
And at the pickets they yelled,N word, N word, N word at the
school, children walking intothe schools.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (19:18):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (19:19):
Good
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (19:19):
Yeah, and I'm like,
katy-guest290_1_09-05 (19:20):
children, like, oh my God,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (19:23):
and also like property destruction
is fine in this instance.
Like you hear that all the timeabout like anti protests, people
who are against protests atProgressive.
Issues because they're like, oh,but you can't destroy property.
Like property is this end all beall,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (19:41):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (19:42):
it's your site that wants to do it,
unless you're storming thecapitol on January 6th, or
unless you're setting schoolbuses on fire or unless you're
like another part with that, uh.
The Padilla, or whatever hername was, that was yelling like
slashing tires of white womenwho were trying to help
integrate things.
Like, it's fine.
(20:03):
It's fine
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (20:04):
Right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (20:05):
when we wanna do it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (20:06):
The other mention of that was how
they were so angry that theserulings for busing, they called
it social engineering as ifwhite supremacy isn't social
engineering.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (20:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (20:16):
it's like not as much about the means
as it is about the ends, liketoo wet ends.
And are they justified becausethey are.
rights and humanity and, youknow, protecting the vulnerable
or are they supporting systemsof oppression?
Um, there was a lot in here.
Another group was called Roar
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (20:35):
Mm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (20:36):
our Alienated Rights, ROAR, and that
was founded by Louise De Hicks,who is a piece of work.
I remember way back when I wasteaching US history, we would
show clips from.
Eyes on the Prize, thisdocumentary about the Civil
Rights Movement, and there's areally powerful episode about
(20:58):
what happened in Boston becauseit's really trying to show that
the civil rights movement wentwell past the sixties and it was
not just in the South.
And you know what happened therewas really powerful.
And to watch the footage of whathappened when white children
were bused to black schools andwere.
Welcome.
There were welcoming committeesand it was like most opposite
(21:20):
vibe.
And then you have black childrenbeing bused into the white
neighborhoods and the liketerrifying violence and like
just how different it was.
Of course, this is all also aclass issue,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (21:34):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_ (21:34):
neighborhoods.
South Boston was white, Roxburywas black, they were both
working class.
Garrity was the judge, uh,Wendell Arthur Garrity, who.
Who decided busing would happenin Boston, but he didn't include
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (21:48):
His neighborhood.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (21:48):
suburbs or his neighborhood exactly
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (21:50):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (21:51):
fancy
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (21:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (21:52):
it is definitely this class and to
your point, like pitting peopleagainst each other when really
the working class white peoplehave way more in common with the
working class black people thatthey're yelling at and throwing
things at,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (22:05):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (22:06):
uh, and just can't lift up.
To see it.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (22:09):
One of the things that talks about a
lot in here is the argumentthat.
These white families are makingagainst like how these busing
policies are destroying theirhard work and decisions that
they had made and sacrificesthat they had made.
They talk about how busing manybelieved had rendered
meaningless.
(22:30):
The financial sacrifices theymade to send their children to
good schools, unquote.
They emphasized how hard workand hard economic choices made
it possible for them to buy goodhomes and good school districts,
which would make the Americandream possible for their
children.
And I wrote in the margins likethis, reaffirms that the
American dream and achievingthat is based on oppressing
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (22:54):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (22:55):
someone at some level all the time.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (22:58):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (22:58):
the American dream doesn't exist
without having someone beneathyou.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (23:02):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (23:03):
have to crawl on top of people.
You have to, there has to be badschools so that you can have the
good schools like
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (23:11):
And it doesn't actually even work.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (23:13):
Yeah.
No.
katy-guest290_1_09- (23:14):
guaranteed, like you have been taught to
believe that you are entitled tothese things.
This is, I hate the wordentitlements, how it typically
gets used.
So I'm using that word veryspecifically like you believe as
a white person who isn't borninto money, if you work hard,
you could get ahead, and thenwhen that doesn't work for you,
instead of blaming.
(23:34):
That lie, blame these otherpeople or efforts to try to make
things better for other people.
You know, it's, it's just sopredictable.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (23:42):
It made me like I wanted to look
into this history.
I was like, when did it start?
That school funding was tied toproperty taxes.
Because that's a huge problemthat keeps getting, um, it still
gets brought up and I actuallylooked it up and it started in
the 16 hundreds.
It was like some law in 1647initially that tied it to
(24:06):
property taxes, and that fromthe beginning, again, just the
baked in inequity in a system.
That's structured like that.
Like if we could restructurefrom the bottom so that there
weren't these inequalities basedon where you lived, what
neighborhood you were in.
Yeah, exactly.
(24:26):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (24:27):
and that's such a good point.
I think just one of the bigtakeaways from this section was
about the class, the interest inclass dynamics, but also just
how so many of these Northernwhite women.
tried to distinguish themselvesfrom southern white women and
really tried to say that theyweren't racist and in this the
next breath or their nextaction.
(24:48):
is exactly what's happening.
She talks about one ro me,member also had been a really
active member of the Sierra Cluband had worked with a lot of
black women opposing theexpansion of the airport in
Boston, and then she was part ofthe anti bussing movement and
like, couldn't believe it wasabout race and yet none of the
(25:10):
black women she had worked with.
on the side of anti busing andcould like, so it is about race,
actually.
Like when,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (25:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (25:17):
when none of the women you are
working with on this issue areshowing up to these other
meetings, that's then it isabout race, whether you want it
to be about race or not.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (25:28):
Just here says that, these women
imagine themselves as different,as less racist than their
southern sisters, even whenthey're maternal and
constitutional languageresembled that of so many
southern segregationists in theseventies and even when other
women working around them werethrowing eggs at buses, yelling
things at kids like it is.
(25:49):
This is just another thing ifyou look around You normally
like to be in interracialcoalitions and that's the work
you wanna do, and then you showup in a space to advocate for
something and none of thosepeople are there.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (26:01):
You're in the wrong space.
You're in the wrong space.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (26:04):
like get out.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (26:05):
She says, this is on page 2 35.
What these women have told us isthat a political ideology that
was ostensibly race neutral bythe 1970s must be understood in
the context of history thatreached well back into the
1920s, and in conjunction withpolitical involvement that was
rarely race neutral.
In fact, their politicalactivism was often overt in its
(26:27):
pursuit of white racialinterests.
So you cannot ignore.
Where all of this came from, andthen pretend it's like we talked
about last week you can't let itoff.
The hook of this is all rootedin very overt racism.
It doesn't matter that you'vechanged the language, now
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (26:43):
and it doesn't matter if you
personally, d they aren't like,you know, don't believe that
you're harboring racistsentiments.
Like it, it doesn't, if you areunable to see the connections to
racism, that's your problem.
That doesn't mean that thoseconnections.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (26:56):
mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (26:57):
and then figure that out and make a
decision about it.
There was an organization, it'snot like, there weren't
alternatives, you know,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (27:04):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (27:04):
this cwac, I don't even
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (27:07):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (27:07):
what they call themselves, the
Citywide
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (27:09):
we're doing.
katy-guest290_1_09-0 (27:10):
Coalition.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (27:11):
Yes.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (27:11):
That was a biracial group of men and
women that were helping toimplement the busing decision by
serving as community liaison,school volunteers and staff at
communication centers, whattheir work was.
I thought this was sofascinating that.
The white people went undercoverto attend anti bus meetings,
like, yes.
Yes, use
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (27:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05 (27:28):
whiteness to spy on these shitty people
and would come back withtranscripts.
They had volunteers who woulddocument daily harassment that
their kids were experiencing atSCH at schools.
They had plenty to document.
They would collect copies of allthe anti busing flyers that were
being posted in schools.
They had a rumor control centerbecause of course there's all
(27:49):
this misinformation.
To try to undermine the busingefforts.
And so they're trying to keeptrack of that.
So this group stayed reallybusy.
So it's not like this ladyVirginia Sheehy, who was like,
oh, I had all these friends inthis Sierra Club and they're not
coming to anti busing meetings.
It's like, yeah,'cause they'reall this other group.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (28:05):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (28:06):
other group, like figure it out.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (28:09):
There was another woman I really
wanted to talk about this.
She wasn't named, this is onpage 2 31, but she.
Is
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (28:17):
Hyde Park woman,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (28:19):
Yes.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (28:20):
my gosh, this part was crazy.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (28:21):
Yes.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (28:22):
wrote a letter to Judge Garrity, the
judge that enforced this busingto tell him how the anti busing
cause had filled her days.
She told the judge her politicalactivism had ruined her diet.
Which now consisted of potatochips on the run.
Her sex life was nownon-existent.
Her housekeeping duties and evenher daily hygiene, since she had
(28:45):
lowered her weekly number ofbaths to save time for anti
busing organizing.
I mean, get out of here
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (28:56):
But here is what she's doing.
She had already written 245letters per
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (29:02):
Weak.
katy-guest290_1_09-05- (29:03):
attended rallies, delivered speeches, a
prayer protest, which of coursethese people are praying
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (29:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (29:09):
know, they have their prayer meeting
and then they go yell at kidswith the n word
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (29:12):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (29:13):
it, that's what would Jesus
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (29:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (29:14):
that would call people up to try to
get volunteers.
She was homeschooling her likeall these things.
So it's like, yeah, I'm notsurprised you're getting potato
chips and never taking a bath.
I don't have that same excuseand that basically described my
life, but, uh, that I thoughtthat was wild.
Can
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (29:30):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (29:31):
Judge Garrity getting that letter and
being like, I don't need to knowthat you're not having sex.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (29:35):
Oh my gosh.
These women are something else.
That's one thing that I'm reallyinterested to ask.
Um, McCray when we speak to heris just like.
Where she came, where she gotall of this research, like how
she dug into all of this.
Where are her sources?
The book itself like has ahundred pages at the end of
(29:57):
sources and stuff that she used,so I can't imagine the amount of
time she spent like putting allof this together and she did it
in such an amazing way that I'mjust super impressed by, and I
really excited to talk to herabout it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (30:11):
For sure.
There's a couple other things Iwanted to talk about.
So one I wanna put a pin in,maybe we can end with this, is
just the way that McRay callsout other historians in
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (30:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (30:21):
this
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (30:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (30:22):
But the last bit, and this is kind
of the last rationale she'sgiving for why she's even
calling bullshit on these womenwho are like, I'm not racist,
but is just the impact all ofthis had on black.
People in these communities.
And again, I know we're talkingabout this in a very like white,
black, binary
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (30:41):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (30:41):
That's the, history we are reading
right now, but it's of course Ithink people of color more
broadly.
But she says this is page 2 32that a lot of black Americans
realize it's not the bus it'sus, and that they were
connecting all the dots and.
protestors attacked buses withblack children on them, talked
(31:01):
about oversexed black boys andinterracial sex, and practiced
verbal and sexual violence onschool playgrounds.
It was black parents and theirchildren who suffered the
repercussions, not the bus.
For black families, the economicconcerns or complex class
politics of the anti busserswere harder to discern.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (31:17):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (31:17):
I think that's another piece of it
too.
Like if you are thinking toyourself I'm standing up for
this issue.
I'm not racist.
That's not why I support this orwhy I'm advocating for X, Y, or
Z, but like, okay, let's, takeyou at your word and that you're
ignoring the fact that the Klanis showing up for those meetings
and they're feeling totallycomfortable in that space.
Let's pretend we can ignorethat.
(31:37):
When you hear neighbors sharinghow it's harming them and their
children.
That is also a giant red flag.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (31:48):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (31:48):
out another solution if
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (31:50):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (31:51):
for, because apparently you're not
racist or ableist or sexist, butwhen people of color or people
with disabilities, like all ofthese that you say you don't
hate, when they are telling youthat what you are advocating for
is hurting them, stop doing thatthing.
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (32:07):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (32:07):
Even if you still can't see the
connection and you still don'tunderstand, or you think oh,
it's not actually about that,shut
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (32:15):
stop.
Like it, it the, again, like theodds are you are missing
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (32:21):
That's honestly, like if there's any
after all these years we've beendoing this, it's like the odds
are, it's our ignorance
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (32:29):
in the way.
So just take a beat.
Sit down.
Just just
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (32:34):
Shut your mouth for, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (32:36):
because that again, of like the degree
to which you are harboring somelike latent or, you know,
subconscious race.
It's like not even, I don't evencare if we had like a little
meter that could like B, B, Blike test.
How genuine you're being.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:51):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (32:52):
doesn't matter at the point that the
community you say you're notagainst is desperately trying to
get you to stop advocating forit.
Stop
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (33:00):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (33:01):
the end.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (33:02):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (33:02):
And if you don't, then again, that's
more evidence that you actuallyare invested in whatever systems
of oppression are at play.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (33:10):
Yeah.
And your continuation of it iswhat keeps it all going to, I
like the way she ends by sayinglegislation was never enough to
sustain a Jim k Crow South.
Or a nation, but it was also notenough to destroy it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (33:25):
it.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (33:26):
And
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (33:26):
Yep.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (33:27):
that I think was the takeaway.
Yes, we fight for better laws,we fight against Cycl race, but
it's not that that holds it alltogether.
It's the underlying.
Ways that we all show up in ourcommunities, the ways that we
organize the fights that we dofor our own families.
Like that's what keeps all ofthis going.
(33:50):
And then to the point of howhistorians present it.
She says, these white women veryclearly wanted to sell this
story, that their fight againstthis was more nuanced than what
was going on in the south.
It was more complex andhistorians.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (34:07):
pro segregation, it's anti busing.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (34:09):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (34:10):
call it, even though that they're
synonymous.
But let's not pretend that antibusing is somehow different than
what all these other women weredoing in the South who were
explicitly pro Jim Crow.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (34:20):
Yeah, and I do like that she called
out, that historians have alsocouched it in those terms and
tried to make it seem like itwas more, it's this whole.
The whole thing that everyonedoes on a lot of things that
aren't as complex as we try tomake it.
But you know, there's just moreto it than that.
Sometimes there's not more to itthan that.
A lot of times there's not moreto it than that.
(34:42):
Like you're trying to sell anidea that there is because
you're trying to cover up thebullshit and that's, you still
have to call out the bullshit.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (34:51):
Well, here's a, maybe a good quote to
end on then.
This is page 2 33, she says, bythe 1970s, segregationists
across the nation hadorchestrated decades long
opposition to schoolintegration.
They had buried the persistenceof structural racism behind a
story of the legislative end of.
De jour segregation.
They had elevated individualrights and made sacrosanct the
(35:14):
rights of the families todetermine their children's
education.
They had seized the issue ofschool choice and taken it from
its dissemination by southernstates to circumvent Brown and
applied it nationwide to theissue of busing.
They had worked over decades tosidestep meaningful integration
in the larger political agendaof racial equality.
After arguing that the end oflegal segregation was
(35:34):
unconstitutional, they continuedto argue that customary
segregation upheld by raceneutral policies was beyond the
scope of judicial authority.
Reconceived massive resistancewas not confined to the Jim Crow
South.
It did not die with the defeatof de jore segregation.
Its fiercest proponents.
Were not the silenced racistdemagogues, but the daily
(35:57):
grassroots activists whocontinually reshaped their
support for various versions ofracial segregation, and that is
who is in charge today.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (36:06):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (36:07):
That brings us to this moment.
The story we've told were like,the demons were vanquished.
The dragons were slayed.
Nope, because the whole time theactual fuel for this were these
white women making it work, andthey kept making it work
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (36:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (36:24):
kept making it work and are making it
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (36:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (36:27):
I really, really appreciated, that
being.
Really the heart of this book ishow that shift from de jour to
defacto and the ways that thesewomen turned that from a defeat
into a victory for their agenda.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (36:44):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (36:45):
I,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (36:45):
Well, I think that's gonna be like one
of the main focuses when we talkto the author next week and how
she sees that transition too,and.
What she learned in writing thisbook for how we can move
forward.
So I'm excited to talk about it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (36:59):
Me too.
If anyone's listening and wantsto send in questions, please do
that.
Thank you again for listening.
As always, subscribe, like,leave a review, especially if
you like it.
Don't leave a negative review'cause you have better things to
do.
Just move on with your life.
We're just so grateful toeveryone listening and very
excited for next week.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (37:18):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (37:18):
talk to you soon.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (37:19):
Okay.
Bye guys.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (37:21):
Hi.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (00:14):
Hello?
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (00:15):
How are you?
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (00:16):
Uh, I'm
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (00:17):
I
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (00:17):
It's gorgeous fall weather.
It's my favorite time of year
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:21):
know.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (00:22):
I love like a crisp.
Chill in the air and a littlebreeze to wear like sandals with
pants
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:29):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (00:30):
Feels really good to me.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (00:31):
I know when you finally can get
out of the, like sweat drippingdown your backstage of summer.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (00:36):
Ugh, it was a swampy summer too, so,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:39):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (00:40):
I appreciate not having a sweaty
butt when I go outside for sure.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (00:45):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (00:45):
This, I'm actually going to go for a
long walk with our dog.
That is my goal to get outsideand do a little movement.
I've just been feeling like alot of.
Like a lot more anxiety anddepression than normal.
I think it's more than anything.
Not
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (00:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:00):
state of the world is helping in any
way, shape, or form.
But, I was like, okay, is uh,like getting outside around
nature and fresh air and somemovement is, is definitely not
gonna hurt.
Like
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (01:12):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (01:12):
help right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Now I had to remind myself ofhormones yesterday'cause I was
in this conversation where I wasgetting really irritable and I
just wanted to unleash all ofthe things that I was trying to
filter in my head.
And I was just like, you'regonna start your period in the
next couple of days.
Shut your mouth.
Like, don't,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (01:33):
to
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:34):
don't go there.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:35):
Check yourself like, oh, this isn't
real,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:38):
Yeah.
Uhhuh.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (01:39):
it's real in a sense.
But yeah, to be able to lift upand be like, oh my, the level of
rage I'm feeling right now isnot appropriate to act on.
I
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (01:48):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:49):
Check it a little
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (01:50):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (01:51):
but if someone in my neighborhood
sees me like screaming as I'mwalking through neighborhood,
that's probably
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (01:57):
It's all okay.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (01:58):
Yeah.
Nothing to see here.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (02:00):
It's all okay.
It's all okay.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (02:02):
Friday.
Uh, well, we are finally on theconclusion.
I say finally, I think this hasgone really
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (02:08):
I know.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (02:09):
loved this book.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (02:10):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (02:11):
but we are at the concluding
chapter, which moves into theseventies.
Of Mothers of MassiveResistance, which is a fabulous
book by Elizabeth GillespieMcRay, who we are talking with
next week,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (02:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (02:25):
wait for that
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (02:25):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (02:26):
This was great.
Again, it just ended not on ahigh note because all of this
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (02:30):
No.
katy-guest290_1_09-05- (02:30):
actually so depressing, but it just is
such a good book.
mandy---she-her-_1 (02:35):
Enlightening note, it's an enlightening note.
I think like a lot of things aresolidified in this chapter.
I think a lot of our motivationfor doing what we do is brought
up in this chapter.
So yeah, it was very interestingto see'cause.
This whole book is focused onthese key women in the south who
(02:57):
are running these prosegregationists political
movements.
And this chapter ties in theprediction that Ms.
Florence Tiller's Ogden madewhen she said, when this moves
to the north, like you're gonnasee basically.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (03:14):
And, and that she was right, like
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (03:16):
She was right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (03:17):
that white women would join their
cause and stop arguing so hardfor, for desegregation efforts.
And it, the very first pagehere, migra says that her
prediction emerged because shewas a well-informed, politically
connected conservative femalesegregationist embedded in
national networks, committed tovarious forms of segregationist
(03:38):
policies.
But I loved this line.
This was another just classic.
Mick Ray, a little lovely snark.
Her anticipation of nationalresistance to racial equality
was not mere the bitterexpression of an aging woman who
watched her political effortsmeet defeat nor the words of a
white Southern apologist.
Even though she was both zing.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (03:58):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (03:59):
That's a historian mic drop there.
Uh, but it, it really shifts ourattention and the conclusion to
the north and the, to somedegree, the ways that the
southern women were actuallyvery much connected and
supporting and offering adviceto these northern women, but
really exploring this predictionin saying, ah, she was totally
(04:19):
right.
You know, this is absolutelywhat happens in cities all over
the north.
She starts off by.
Distinguishing between deur andde facto
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (04:30):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (04:31):
which I thought was really important.
What did you take
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2025 (04:34):
I thought that was very
interesting too.
So there's the two argumentsabout why segregation exists,
part of it, which is the wholeJim Crow order in the south.
That's the de jour part of it.
That's the legal.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (04:49):
laws that say, you cannot live here.
You cannot drink this water, youcannot
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (04:53):
you,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (04:54):
this pool.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (04:54):
you cannot sit on the bus.
You cannot do this.
Like, that's the part.
But then there is always thisargument of the defacto, which
is just quote unquote, natural.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (05:05):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (05:06):
People just choose to live in their own
communities.
They choose to have theseneighborhoods or these
affiliations, and that is theway people want it to happen.
It doesn't, it's
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (05:20):
It
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (05:20):
the way things are.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (05:21):
it's just kind of the way that it
happened.
Yeah.
I think that distinction, andshe really unpacks, it's not
natural, obviously, she putsthose in hard quotes for sure.
That it's both de jore and defacto are clearly the product
of, she says local policies andlegislation like redlining,
federal loan policy, urbanrenewal plans, highway
development, naturalsegregation, it turned out was
(05:43):
not natural at all, but it seemslike it is.
the white people specificallyit, and it lets them feel
morally superior to.
people in the south where it wasde jour
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (05:57):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (05:58):
It masks and hides the way that
white supremacy works.
It also made me think of thecritique of the phrase natural
disaster
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (06:06):
Mm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (06:07):
so many.
Of the catastrophes that getlabeled that way in the news are
not natural at all.
They're the result of manmadeclimate change, or they're the
result of like horribleagricultural practices or
engineering practices.
So it's very much caused, butthose root causes have been
(06:29):
masked, and so it seems it'sjust an accident.
It's just natural,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (06:33):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (06:33):
really, it like.
these white women of off thehook
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (06:37):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05 (06:38):
thinking, I'm not racist,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (06:40):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (06:41):
but I'm going to, you know, fight
all of these attempts to makethings more equitable or more
accessible.
I'm gonna fight them
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (06:48):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (06:49):
a lot and I'm actually gonna to
use racism often to fight them.
But, say that it's not becauseof racism that I'm fighting it
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (06:56):
Well, and I think Florence Ogden had
seen.
How it would be used because shesaw the transition in the south
of overt racism to more of thecolorblind politics and then
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (07:10):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (07:11):
this agenda that could, on the
surface look not racist.
So by talking about things likeshe says, parental authority,
constitutional integrity,limited government, national
sovereignty, school choice,which.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (07:24):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (07:25):
All continues in the conservative
agenda today.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (07:28):
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (07:29):
these women could say those were the
things they were focusing on.
They were worried aboutcommunism, they were worried
about the constitution, but theywere clearly not racist.
They say to themselves.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (07:41):
Uh, but, and yet, like all the
evidence mounts up contrary to
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (07:45):
oh yeah, and in very overt ways
too.
Like sometimes not, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (07:50):
Like if you are yelling the N word at
kids, then yeah,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (07:54):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (07:54):
racist
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (07:55):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (07:55):
like that.
Or even if maybe you aren't, butif a lot of the people in your
organization do, and
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (08:04):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-0 (08:04):
supporting your organization.
your organization is racist.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (08:08):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (08:09):
know what else to tell you.
You know,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (08:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (08:12):
and I, I wrote in the emergence here
just why, are we, and by wehere, I mean like white liberal
people just so bad atidentifying root causes.
And of course I think we havebeen grappling with the answer
to that question all the yearsof this podcast.
But just the importance of beingable to understand structural
(08:32):
systemic.
Racism, sexism, ableism, likeall the isms, how it works.
And then we also shouldn't besurprised that the efforts of
these women is to make sureyoung people do not learn those
things, so that it makes itreally hard for adults to
understand the world throughsystems and structures.
So they can say, oh, it's not,I'm not racist that we don't
(08:55):
have any explicitly racist laws,so therefore racism is gone.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (08:58):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (08:59):
and that's it.
Then it's a victory for thesewomen who've been fighting for
segregation and let go of theexplicit need to call it
segregation or to call itracism, they let go of that to
keep it going and how, just howsuccessful they've been.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (09:16):
And we also bypass.
Any real efforts to solve rootcauses, like you're saying, when
we don't actually address themand we get to gloss over them
with these sorts of efforts.
But so she talks about all ofthese associations that can get
formed again, like these womenhave so many fucking committees
(09:37):
mid
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (09:37):
I know they do.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (09:39):
like,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (09:39):
I love some of these acronyms, by
the way.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (09:41):
oh my gosh, my favorite was the
nag.
We'll get to that one.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (09:45):
Yes,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (09:46):
That one, the National Action Group.
That was a great one.
But one of the first ones shetalks about was the Concerned
Parents Organization, which was,I love this, led by three middle
class men.
But the work was sustained bythe work of white mothers,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (10:00):
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09 (10:01):
including Mrs.
Charles Warren, no actual namefor herself.
And.
This is the argument that comesup.
Like she was noted for herwillingness for black parents to
buy in her neighborhood and sendtheir children to scroll with
her children, but she continued.
If anyone thinks they're goingto bust my children across town
(10:21):
without a fight, they'redreaming.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (10:24):
This, this is the crux of it.
And this is in Charlotte, whichis still, I would say the south.
But you were, it's like movingfor the North we're the first
kind of busing, it was postBrown versus board of education
that said school public schoolshad to desegregate and all of
these districts we've talkedabout in past chapters stalled
and dragged their feet andparents were putting up
resistance and so.
(10:45):
Busing ends up becoming a courtordered way to make sure that
the Supreme Court ruling wasenacted, so to say, in schools
where more than 50% of the kidsare kids of color, we're going
to bus kids there.
There's like the tiniest part ofme that understands not wanting
kids to be on a bus for an hourone way.
There's this Spec of logisticalconcern that I actually could be
(11:11):
more sympathetic to.
But first of all, it's notremotely about that.
So let's not pretend that's evenan argument any of them were
making.
It's not, not even close.
And then I was also pushingmyself to think what
inconveniences are we willing toendure to make it right?
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (11:28):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-0 (11:29):
structural systemic oppression is not going
to be resolved in a convenientway that it's just not
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (11:35):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (11:35):
suck it up, you
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (11:37):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (11:37):
it's a very much like a not in my
backyard kind of attitude
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (11:42):
talked about.
Yeah, and I was thinking thesame thing, like some of these
arguments which were obviouslynot their underlying arguments,
but the ones they were making onthe surface, like I, I do have
sympathy for some of them, likewhen she gets to talking about
how the working class
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (11:59):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (11:59):
moms were irritated at the suburban
moms.
'cause they're like, sure youcan fight against this'cause
this isn't affecting you.
Like we are women who have to goto work to support our families.
We don't have the means to moveout to the suburbs where we
don't have to be affected bythis, and now they're gonna
start busing our kids, whichmeans I have to get to work
(12:20):
before they can get on a bus.
So who's gonna take care ofthat.
And I understand that concernand that like loss of control
and that fear that that's gonnaimpact your kids negatively.
'cause it's one thing to saylike, I want to make sacrifices
to try to make this better andmore equal.
(12:42):
When you realize that you'rehaving to have your children
make those sacrifices too, thatyou're saying you're gonna do
this, then I get.
The initial hesitance to dothat.
But the question is like youjust said, what are you willing
to do?
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (12:57):
I also call bullshit on it, is
that there, in all of thischapter, there's not
organizations of black parentssaying, we don't want, you know,
it's not, it's specificallywhite women who are pissed off.
And then very quickly, whateverother arguments they're making
dissipate when they are.
Yelling things like at onepoint, she says at, at times,
(13:20):
and now this is when she'stalking about white women in
Boston, which we'll get to in aminute, but she said they stress
their opposition to busing andnot school integration.
Again, like I'm not racist,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (13:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (13:31):
but, um, that they could not even
pretend to reconcile oppositionto busing with the rejection of
racism.
And that's because.
You have this, like this woman,Elvira Pixie Paladino,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (13:46):
Hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (13:46):
elected member of the Boston School
Committee yelling, you fuckingwhite trash you.
Fuck N-word.
You're an N word lover.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (13:54):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (13:55):
yelling that at people on a playground.
So
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (13:58):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (13:59):
I don't believe you.
You know, like it's, it's justover and over again.
ways that they acted and the.
The rhetoric and the act, the,just the violence that ensued,
belies their, their realrationale for not wanting this
to happen.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (14:16):
And it, yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (14:17):
can call bullshit on
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (14:18):
Right.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (14:18):
not racist lo logic.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (14:20):
And it's also not getting to the
base of where these workingwhite mothers should be
irritated, which is the factthat we don't have any
structural support for workingmothers, like there's not be mad
at capitalism that you can't,like
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (14:38):
right, right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (14:38):
of, you should be in solidarity with
other people over this insteadof blaming it on, you know, them
trying to bust your kids.
How about you blame it on thefact that you can't afford to
live without.
Working this way, you know, youcan't, yeah.
There's just so many other waysto attack it.
There's so many other ways toimagine how you could have
addressed it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (14:59):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (15:00):
Without it being this.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (15:01):
That's right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (15:02):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (15:03):
know, again, when, when you look at
the organizations that arepopping up and they're
partnering with the K, k, K,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (15:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (15:08):
should be like a
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (15:09):
It's a red flag
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (15:10):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (15:12):
that's.
And
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (15:13):
Yep.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (15:13):
maybe we shouldn't have that alliance
and try to justify itwhatsoever.
But there's so many hypocrisiesin here too, like going back to
the CPA there was a wife of thevice chairman, Jane Scott.
She said that a parent's duty toprotect the innocence of her
children superseded herresponsibility to follow man's
law.
(15:34):
And what that triggered for mewas.
Okay.
How come that works for you inyour white woman world when that
argument is quickly shut down byanyone who wants to use it to
justify like people immigratinghere and ignoring the laws of.
Immigration because they'retrying to protect their
(15:55):
children.
They're just trying to protecttheir children.
So why doesn't that supersedethe laws of man?
But that's not anything that'swilling to be conceded on that
side.
Like it's just convenient theway that you can weaponize
motherhood for yourself, but notlet anybody else have that.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (16:13):
And you always point this out like
to what ends?
Are you even ignoring the laws?
If you are ignoring them inorder to continue to uphold
white supremacy, that is notjustified.
You know, you
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (16:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (16:25):
a lot, like extreme evil is not
the same as extreme
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (16:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05- (16:28):
breaking a law that's unjust because it's
upholding.
Systems of violent oppressionagainst people is not the same
as breaking the law because youwanna continue to do violence
and oppress
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (16:41):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (16:41):
course, like getting everyone to come to
consensus about how to sortthose actions is never gonna
happen.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (16:49):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (16:49):
it's clear for me, you know, this
was, now I'm on page 2 21.
We're back in, in Charlotte thatthe white parents are anti
busing.
But of course they're alsotalking about curriculum.
The curriculum didn't seem tospark as much as the busing, you
know, but it, people were stillmad about it.
And that they, white parentsboycotted stores, kept kids at
(17:11):
home, had rallies, joinedWildcat Strikes, shut down the
city bus system, and it was sucha weird.
Upside down version of readingabout the civil rights movement
and the tactics that people usedthere to advocate for justice.
That it's like this weird mutantversion of those tactics to
uphold white supremacy.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (17:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (17:35):
Oh, these other organizations, we've
got nag,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (17:39):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (17:39):
Action Group.
We've got Save Our Schools, SOS,we've got the CPA.
Elizabeth McRay talks about howso many of these had racially
neutral innocuous
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (17:50):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (17:50):
parents for Freedom, citizens against
busing, you know, but then whenyou poke at it a little bit,
it's like, yeah, they'repartnered with.
k, K or they are having GeorgeWallace come and speak, like be
the keynote address at their
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (18:04):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (18:05):
Um, that's when you start to make
some of these connections.
Uh.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (18:10):
Yeah, she, she said, many opponents of
busing invoked the link betweenschool integration, interracial
relationships, and miscegenationas they destroyed property
blocked roadways, enchanted, doaway with the N word and pigs
rhyming with each other.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (18:28):
with pigs,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (18:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (18:30):
Again, like this is not just about
constitutional
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (18:34):
It's like she's, they cannot, it says
they could hardly suppress thewhite supremacist rhetoric that
characterized many of theprotests.
You just can't pretend it's not.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (18:43):
The other example of that that she
gives were the nags that hadorganized pickets.
I, this cracked me up that theyblock buses with baby strollers
chain themselves to bus garageGates held a 620 mile mother's
march to Washington, DC wherethey gathered at the Washington
Monument proudly wearingmonogrammed aprons that attested
to their roles as homemakers.
(19:05):
But, at the same time, schoolbuses were set on fire
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (19:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (19:09):
invited George Wallace to be their
keynote speaker.
And at the pickets they yelled,N word, N word, N word at the
school, children walking intothe schools.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (19:18):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (19:19):
Good
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (19:19):
Yeah, and I'm like,
katy-guest290_1_09-05 (19:20):
children, like, oh my God,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (19:23):
and also like property destruction
is fine in this instance.
Like you hear that all the timeabout like anti protests, people
who are against protests atProgressive.
Issues because they're like, oh,but you can't destroy property.
Like property is this end all beall,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (19:41):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (19:42):
it's your site that wants to do it,
unless you're storming thecapitol on January 6th, or
unless you're setting schoolbuses on fire or unless you're
like another part with that, uh.
The Padilla, or whatever hername was, that was yelling like
slashing tires of white womenwho were trying to help
integrate things.
Like, it's fine.
(20:03):
It's fine
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (20:04):
Right.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (20:05):
when we wanna do it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (20:06):
The other mention of that was how
they were so angry that theserulings for busing, they called
it social engineering as ifwhite supremacy isn't social
engineering.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (20:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (20:16):
it's like not as much about the means
as it is about the ends, liketoo wet ends.
And are they justified becausethey are.
rights and humanity and, youknow, protecting the vulnerable
or are they supporting systemsof oppression?
Um, there was a lot in here.
Another group was called Roar
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (20:35):
Mm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (20:36):
our Alienated Rights, ROAR, and that
was founded by Louise De Hicks,who is a piece of work.
I remember way back when I wasteaching US history, we would
show clips from.
Eyes on the Prize, thisdocumentary about the Civil
Rights Movement, and there's areally powerful episode about
(20:58):
what happened in Boston becauseit's really trying to show that
the civil rights movement wentwell past the sixties and it was
not just in the South.
And you know what happened therewas really powerful.
And to watch the footage of whathappened when white children
were bused to black schools andwere.
Welcome.
There were welcoming committeesand it was like most opposite
(21:20):
vibe.
And then you have black childrenbeing bused into the white
neighborhoods and the liketerrifying violence and like
just how different it was.
Of course, this is all also aclass issue,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (21:34):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_ (21:34):
neighborhoods.
South Boston was white, Roxburywas black, they were both
working class.
Garrity was the judge, uh,Wendell Arthur Garrity, who.
Who decided busing would happenin Boston, but he didn't include
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (21:48):
His neighborhood.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (21:48):
suburbs or his neighborhood exactly
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (21:50):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (21:51):
fancy
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (21:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (21:52):
it is definitely this class and to
your point, like pitting peopleagainst each other when really
the working class white peoplehave way more in common with the
working class black people thatthey're yelling at and throwing
things at,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (22:05):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (22:06):
uh, and just can't lift up.
To see it.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (22:09):
One of the things that talks about a
lot in here is the argumentthat.
These white families are makingagainst like how these busing
policies are destroying theirhard work and decisions that
they had made and sacrificesthat they had made.
They talk about how busing manybelieved had rendered
meaningless.
(22:30):
The financial sacrifices theymade to send their children to
good schools, unquote.
They emphasized how hard workand hard economic choices made
it possible for them to buy goodhomes and good school districts,
which would make the Americandream possible for their
children.
And I wrote in the margins likethis, reaffirms that the
American dream and achievingthat is based on oppressing
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (22:54):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (22:55):
someone at some level all the time.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (22:58):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (22:58):
the American dream doesn't exist
without having someone beneathyou.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (23:02):
Mm-hmm.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (23:03):
have to crawl on top of people.
You have to, there has to be badschools so that you can have the
good schools like
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (23:11):
And it doesn't actually even work.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (23:13):
Yeah.
No.
katy-guest290_1_09- (23:14):
guaranteed, like you have been taught to
believe that you are entitled tothese things.
This is, I hate the wordentitlements, how it typically
gets used.
So I'm using that word veryspecifically like you believe as
a white person who isn't borninto money, if you work hard,
you could get ahead, and thenwhen that doesn't work for you,
instead of blaming.
(23:34):
That lie, blame these otherpeople or efforts to try to make
things better for other people.
You know, it's, it's just sopredictable.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (23:42):
It made me like I wanted to look
into this history.
I was like, when did it start?
That school funding was tied toproperty taxes.
Because that's a huge problemthat keeps getting, um, it still
gets brought up and I actuallylooked it up and it started in
the 16 hundreds.
It was like some law in 1647initially that tied it to
(24:06):
property taxes, and that fromthe beginning, again, just the
baked in inequity in a system.
That's structured like that.
Like if we could restructurefrom the bottom so that there
weren't these inequalities basedon where you lived, what
neighborhood you were in.
Yeah, exactly.
(24:26):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (24:27):
and that's such a good point.
I think just one of the bigtakeaways from this section was
about the class, the interest inclass dynamics, but also just
how so many of these Northernwhite women.
tried to distinguish themselvesfrom southern white women and
really tried to say that theyweren't racist and in this the
next breath or their nextaction.
(24:48):
is exactly what's happening.
She talks about one ro me,member also had been a really
active member of the Sierra Cluband had worked with a lot of
black women opposing theexpansion of the airport in
Boston, and then she was part ofthe anti bussing movement and
like, couldn't believe it wasabout race and yet none of the
(25:10):
black women she had worked with.
on the side of anti busing andcould like, so it is about race,
actually.
Like when,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (25:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (25:17):
when none of the women you are
working with on this issue areshowing up to these other
meetings, that's then it isabout race, whether you want it
to be about race or not.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (25:28):
Just here says that, these women
imagine themselves as different,as less racist than their
southern sisters, even whenthey're maternal and
constitutional languageresembled that of so many
southern segregationists in theseventies and even when other
women working around them werethrowing eggs at buses, yelling
things at kids like it is.
(25:49):
This is just another thing ifyou look around You normally
like to be in interracialcoalitions and that's the work
you wanna do, and then you showup in a space to advocate for
something and none of thosepeople are there.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05 (26:01):
You're in the wrong space.
You're in the wrong space.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (26:04):
like get out.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (26:05):
She says, this is on page 2 35.
What these women have told us isthat a political ideology that
was ostensibly race neutral bythe 1970s must be understood in
the context of history thatreached well back into the
1920s, and in conjunction withpolitical involvement that was
rarely race neutral.
In fact, their politicalactivism was often overt in its
(26:27):
pursuit of white racialinterests.
So you cannot ignore.
Where all of this came from, andthen pretend it's like we talked
about last week you can't let itoff.
The hook of this is all rootedin very overt racism.
It doesn't matter that you'vechanged the language, now
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (26:43):
and it doesn't matter if you
personally, d they aren't like,you know, don't believe that
you're harboring racistsentiments.
Like it, it doesn't, if you areunable to see the connections to
racism, that's your problem.
That doesn't mean that thoseconnections.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (26:56):
mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (26:57):
and then figure that out and make a
decision about it.
There was an organization, it'snot like, there weren't
alternatives, you know,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (27:04):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (27:04):
this cwac, I don't even
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (27:07):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (27:07):
what they call themselves, the
Citywide
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (27:09):
we're doing.
katy-guest290_1_09-0 (27:10):
Coalition.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (27:11):
Yes.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (27:11):
That was a biracial group of men and
women that were helping toimplement the busing decision by
serving as community liaison,school volunteers and staff at
communication centers, whattheir work was.
I thought this was sofascinating that.
The white people went undercoverto attend anti bus meetings,
like, yes.
Yes, use
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (27:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05 (27:28):
whiteness to spy on these shitty people
and would come back withtranscripts.
They had volunteers who woulddocument daily harassment that
their kids were experiencing atSCH at schools.
They had plenty to document.
They would collect copies of allthe anti busing flyers that were
being posted in schools.
They had a rumor control centerbecause of course there's all
(27:49):
this misinformation.
To try to undermine the busingefforts.
And so they're trying to keeptrack of that.
So this group stayed reallybusy.
So it's not like this ladyVirginia Sheehy, who was like,
oh, I had all these friends inthis Sierra Club and they're not
coming to anti busing meetings.
It's like, yeah,'cause they'reall this other group.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (28:05):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (28:06):
other group, like figure it out.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (28:09):
There was another woman I really
wanted to talk about this.
She wasn't named, this is onpage 2 31, but she.
Is
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (28:17):
Hyde Park woman,
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (28:19):
Yes.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (28:20):
my gosh, this part was crazy.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (28:21):
Yes.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (28:22):
wrote a letter to Judge Garrity, the
judge that enforced this busingto tell him how the anti busing
cause had filled her days.
She told the judge her politicalactivism had ruined her diet.
Which now consisted of potatochips on the run.
Her sex life was nownon-existent.
Her housekeeping duties and evenher daily hygiene, since she had
(28:45):
lowered her weekly number ofbaths to save time for anti
busing organizing.
I mean, get out of here
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (28:56):
But here is what she's doing.
She had already written 245letters per
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (29:02):
Weak.
katy-guest290_1_09-05- (29:03):
attended rallies, delivered speeches, a
prayer protest, which of coursethese people are praying
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (29:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (29:09):
know, they have their prayer meeting
and then they go yell at kidswith the n word
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (29:12):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (29:13):
it, that's what would Jesus
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (29:14):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (29:14):
that would call people up to try to
get volunteers.
She was homeschooling her likeall these things.
So it's like, yeah, I'm notsurprised you're getting potato
chips and never taking a bath.
I don't have that same excuseand that basically described my
life, but, uh, that I thoughtthat was wild.
Can
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (29:30):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (29:31):
Judge Garrity getting that letter and
being like, I don't need to knowthat you're not having sex.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-202 (29:35):
Oh my gosh.
These women are something else.
That's one thing that I'm reallyinterested to ask.
Um, McCray when we speak to heris just like.
Where she came, where she gotall of this research, like how
she dug into all of this.
Where are her sources?
The book itself like has ahundred pages at the end of
(29:57):
sources and stuff that she used,so I can't imagine the amount of
time she spent like putting allof this together and she did it
in such an amazing way that I'mjust super impressed by, and I
really excited to talk to herabout it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (30:11):
For sure.
There's a couple other things Iwanted to talk about.
So one I wanna put a pin in,maybe we can end with this, is
just the way that McRay callsout other historians in
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (30:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (30:21):
this
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (30:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (30:22):
But the last bit, and this is kind
of the last rationale she'sgiving for why she's even
calling bullshit on these womenwho are like, I'm not racist,
but is just the impact all ofthis had on black.
People in these communities.
And again, I know we're talkingabout this in a very like white,
black, binary
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (30:41):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (30:41):
That's the, history we are reading
right now, but it's of course Ithink people of color more
broadly.
But she says this is page 2 32that a lot of black Americans
realize it's not the bus it'sus, and that they were
connecting all the dots and.
protestors attacked buses withblack children on them, talked
(31:01):
about oversexed black boys andinterracial sex, and practiced
verbal and sexual violence onschool playgrounds.
It was black parents and theirchildren who suffered the
repercussions, not the bus.
For black families, the economicconcerns or complex class
politics of the anti busserswere harder to discern.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (31:17):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (31:17):
I think that's another piece of it
too.
Like if you are thinking toyourself I'm standing up for
this issue.
I'm not racist.
That's not why I support this orwhy I'm advocating for X, Y, or
Z, but like, okay, let's, takeyou at your word and that you're
ignoring the fact that the Klanis showing up for those meetings
and they're feeling totallycomfortable in that space.
Let's pretend we can ignorethat.
(31:37):
When you hear neighbors sharinghow it's harming them and their
children.
That is also a giant red flag.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (31:48):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (31:48):
out another solution if
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (31:50):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (31:51):
for, because apparently you're not
racist or ableist or sexist, butwhen people of color or people
with disabilities, like all ofthese that you say you don't
hate, when they are telling youthat what you are advocating for
is hurting them, stop doing thatthing.
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (32:07):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (32:07):
Even if you still can't see the
connection and you still don'tunderstand, or you think oh,
it's not actually about that,shut
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (32:15):
stop.
Like it, it the, again, like theodds are you are missing
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-20 (32:21):
That's honestly, like if there's any
after all these years we've beendoing this, it's like the odds
are, it's our ignorance
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (32:29):
in the way.
So just take a beat.
Sit down.
Just just
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (32:34):
Shut your mouth for, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (32:36):
because that again, of like the degree
to which you are harboring somelike latent or, you know,
subconscious race.
It's like not even, I don't evencare if we had like a little
meter that could like B, B, Blike test.
How genuine you're being.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (32:51):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2 (32:52):
doesn't matter at the point that the
community you say you're notagainst is desperately trying to
get you to stop advocating forit.
Stop
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (33:00):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (33:01):
the end.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (33:02):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (33:02):
And if you don't, then again, that's
more evidence that you actuallyare invested in whatever systems
of oppression are at play.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (33:10):
Yeah.
And your continuation of it iswhat keeps it all going to, I
like the way she ends by sayinglegislation was never enough to
sustain a Jim k Crow South.
Or a nation, but it was also notenough to destroy it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (33:25):
it.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-20 (33:26):
And
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (33:26):
Yep.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (33:27):
that I think was the takeaway.
Yes, we fight for better laws,we fight against Cycl race, but
it's not that that holds it alltogether.
It's the underlying.
Ways that we all show up in ourcommunities, the ways that we
organize the fights that we dofor our own families.
Like that's what keeps all ofthis going.
(33:50):
And then to the point of howhistorians present it.
She says, these white women veryclearly wanted to sell this
story, that their fight againstthis was more nuanced than what
was going on in the south.
It was more complex andhistorians.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (34:07):
pro segregation, it's anti busing.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (34:09):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (34:10):
call it, even though that they're
synonymous.
But let's not pretend that antibusing is somehow different than
what all these other women weredoing in the South who were
explicitly pro Jim Crow.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (34:20):
Yeah, and I do like that she called
out, that historians have alsocouched it in those terms and
tried to make it seem like itwas more, it's this whole.
The whole thing that everyonedoes on a lot of things that
aren't as complex as we try tomake it.
But you know, there's just moreto it than that.
Sometimes there's not more to itthan that.
A lot of times there's not moreto it than that.
(34:42):
Like you're trying to sell anidea that there is because
you're trying to cover up thebullshit and that's, you still
have to call out the bullshit.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-202 (34:51):
Well, here's a, maybe a good quote to
end on then.
This is page 2 33, she says, bythe 1970s, segregationists
across the nation hadorchestrated decades long
opposition to schoolintegration.
They had buried the persistenceof structural racism behind a
story of the legislative end of.
De jour segregation.
They had elevated individualrights and made sacrosanct the
(35:14):
rights of the families todetermine their children's
education.
They had seized the issue ofschool choice and taken it from
its dissemination by southernstates to circumvent Brown and
applied it nationwide to theissue of busing.
They had worked over decades tosidestep meaningful integration
in the larger political agendaof racial equality.
After arguing that the end oflegal segregation was
(35:34):
unconstitutional, they continuedto argue that customary
segregation upheld by raceneutral policies was beyond the
scope of judicial authority.
Reconceived massive resistancewas not confined to the Jim Crow
South.
It did not die with the defeatof de jore segregation.
Its fiercest proponents.
Were not the silenced racistdemagogues, but the daily
(35:57):
grassroots activists whocontinually reshaped their
support for various versions ofracial segregation, and that is
who is in charge today.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (36:06):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (36:07):
That brings us to this moment.
The story we've told were like,the demons were vanquished.
The dragons were slayed.
Nope, because the whole time theactual fuel for this were these
white women making it work, andthey kept making it work
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (36:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (36:24):
kept making it work and are making it
mandy---she-her-_1_09-0 (36:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_14 (36:27):
I really, really appreciated, that
being.
Really the heart of this book ishow that shift from de jour to
defacto and the ways that thesewomen turned that from a defeat
into a victory for their agenda.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (36:44):
Yeah.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (36:45):
I,
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (36:45):
Well, I think that's gonna be like one
of the main focuses when we talkto the author next week and how
she sees that transition too,and.
What she learned in writing thisbook for how we can move
forward.
So I'm excited to talk about it.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_1 (36:59):
Me too.
If anyone's listening and wantsto send in questions, please do
that.
Thank you again for listening.
As always, subscribe, like,leave a review, especially if
you like it.
Don't leave a negative review'cause you have better things to
do.
Just move on with your life.
We're just so grateful toeveryone listening and very
excited for next week.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05-2 (37:18):
Yep.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025 (37:18):
talk to you soon.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-05- (37:19):
Okay.
Bye guys.
katy-guest290_1_09-05-2025_ (37:21):
Hi.
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