October 5, 2025 • 56 mins
Embracing Arts and Social Justice in Education: A Conversation with Dr. Cierra Kaler-Jones
In this episode of 'Dirty Laundry,' Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell interview Dr. Cierra Kaler-Jones, a social justice educator, writer, and the first executive director of Rethinking Schools. Dr. Jones discusses her background, the importance of creating educational spaces rooted in joy and love, and how the arts intersect with justice work. They explore the origins of Rethinking Schools, its mission to combat whitewashed curricula, and the transformative work educators are doing to promote social justice in classrooms. The conversation extends to the challenges and successes of incorporating arts and critical pedagogy in education and offers insights into how parents and community members can support these efforts. This enlightening discussion concludes with practical advice on enhancing community involvement in the education system.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker (00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
mandy---she-her-_2_09-11-202 (00:14):
Hi everybody.
We have such a great interviewfor you today.
We're very excited.
We have talked a couple oftimes, about the organization
Rethinking Schools, and today weare talking to Dr.
Sierra Taylor Jones Katie knewof her from some of her
connections.
We find out about some otherconnections that they have.
(00:36):
It is a really goodconversation.
I just love the way she thinks.
And then also.
Like the way she tells stories,which is really a focus of hers.
And I think everyone is gonnalove this.
I we say that about all of ourinterviews, but it's because
it's true.
It is because it's so true.
So just to introduce her, Dr.
(00:56):
Sierra, killer Jones is a socialjustice educator, writer,
scholar, and artist.
Originally from New Jersey, nowbased in Washington DC She is a
graduate of Rutgers Universityand Douglas Residential College.
And also has a master's degreein curriculum and instruction
from the George WashingtonUniversity.
She has a certificate in Women'sLeadership from the Institute
(01:17):
for Women's Leadership and acertificate in Global
Perspectives in Education.
She earned a PhD in educationfrom the Department of Teaching
and Learning Policy andLeadership at the University of
Maryland College Park.
a community-based researcher,Dr.
Taylor Jones, research broadlyfocuses on how to create and
sustain educational spacesrooted in joy and love, while
(01:40):
refuting control and managementtactics in school that deny
young people opportunities forcreativity and critical
consciousness building that isamazing in and of itself.
Just breaking down all of thefacets of that statement.
She's also a dancer, which weget to talk to her about, which.
We go off on tangents and it'sgreat choreographer,
(02:02):
storyteller, writer, and thesecond black woman to be
crowned, miss New Jersey.
We es especially wanted to talkto her because she is the first
ever executive director ofRethinking Schools, the nation's
leading grassroots publisher forracial and social justice in
education.
Previously, she served as theeducation and new fellow with
Communities for Just Schools andTeaching for Change, and then as
(02:25):
the first director ofstorytelling with Communities
for Just Schools Fund.
In this role, she worked to helpshift national narratives and
education by centering youth,family, and educator organizers.
Experiences and stories ineducation work as Sierra
explains my life's work.
And heart's work is dedicated tostorytelling for social justice,
(02:46):
using narrative change todisrupt the status quo and
dismantle oppressive structuresand systems.
I believe that with stories, wehave the power to create fuller,
deeper, and richer connectionsand in turn, a more radically
empathetic and just world.
And that pretty much justencapsulates.
k-guest81_1_09-11-20 (03:03):
inspiring.
I know that the bio is supersolid and just amazing the work
that she's been doing, and Iloved how we were able to talk
about the arts connection andhow she personally has made the
arts such a big part of herlife, but how she sees that
connected to justice work.
(03:24):
Intimately connected, like youcan't disentangle them and how
that shows up in schools.
It was just a really beautifulconversation.
I left feeling very inspired andexcited and even more motivated
than I normally am to supportrethinking schools.
Because I love thatorganization.
We'll link to them in the shownotes, but if you aren't
(03:45):
familiar, please, please checkout, different publications they
have, campaigns they have goingon, ways you can support them.
just a beautiful organizationthat is celebrating its 40th
year and hopefully 40 more.
mandy---she-her-_2_09-11-2 (03:58):
Yep.
All right.
Enjoy the conversationeverybody.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (04:02):
We're here.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (04:04):
Hi.
Hi.
Oh, we are we, Sierra.
Thank you so much for being withus.
I think one of the firstquestions we always ask, whoever
says yes, is why.
Why did you say yes?
When we reached out to talk toyou, I imagine you get lots of
requests to, to speak and toshare your experiences, your
expertise.
(04:24):
So what was it that made you sayyes to this?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her (04:27):
Oh, thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
And when I got your request, Ithink part of it was because we
have so many connections and somany folks that we love in
common, and also because of,commitments to educational
justice and what does that looklike and what does that mean,
particularly through the frameand the lens of this podcast
(04:47):
and.
As I was thinking about my ownpersonal experiences,
particularly being somebody whowas really introduced to
feminism through the lens ofwhite feminism and academia.
And it wasn't until later in mylife that I was introduced to
theories and frameworks and lifepractices of black feminism and
womanism that I thought thatthis would just be an important
(05:09):
conversation.
And also I think any opportunitythat I get.
To talk about rethinking schoolsand lift up the stories of the
educators to lift up theimportant narrative power
building work that we are doingand that we need to continue to
do.
I'm always up for that.
So thank you for the invitationand I look forward to the
conversation.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (05:30):
We are so excited.
We really nerd out and getjazzed to talk to anybody who
wants to come.
But we just think your work isamazing.
And something that really struckme when we were prepping for
your bio is this, missionstatement that.
You share on your website thatsays you are committed to
working on how to create andsustain educational spaces
rooted in joy and love whilerefuting control and management
(05:54):
tactics in school that denyyoung people opportunities for
creativity and criticalconsciousness building, which I
loved so much and it rang assuch the exact opposite of the
mission of the women we've been.
Reading about who've been forgenerations doing work in school
to do just the opposite of that,like fear and ignorance and
control and punishment andeugenics honestly and trying to.
(06:20):
Make sure that kids don't noticeor think anything is wrong with
the oppressive conditions thatthey're experiencing.
So you mentioned already alittle bit just your
introduction to feminism and howthat has changed over time and
it, so I think we're curious tohear just where your commitment
for that vision of educationcame from.
What shaped that, what sustainsthat?
(06:42):
If you can just walk us through,how you came to that commitment
so clearly.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her- (06:47):
So it comes from a lot of personal
experiences.
I remember being a young studentin K through 12 public schools,
and there are specific storiesthat I remember.
I remember reading HuckleberryFinn Popcorn style in my AP
English class, and there weretwo black students in the class,
and we would always get calledto say the N word and the
(07:07):
teacher being like, oh, it'sokay to say that word, because
that was part of the culture ofthat particular period in
history.
And without any reflection,without any critical
conversations with the students.
And so there were many timeswhere I felt isolated.
There were many times that Ifelt cast aside in my own
educational experiences.
(07:28):
I had a lot of wonderfuleducational experiences as well
that showed me the power and thepossibility of.
Teachers that believed in me andthat teachers that encouraged me
to be curious and to askcritical questions.
Especially as a black andFilipino girl in a pretty rural
area of South Jersey.
For me to be able to take upspace, not only with my voice
(07:50):
and my questions, but also Igrew up dancing.
And so in the dance classroom, Iwas able to physically take up
space with my body in a societythat has often policed my body
and.
Space taking.
So my personal experiencesdefinitely impact and influence
my teaching and my approach toeducation.
And when I became a teacher, adance teacher, I've been a
(08:12):
community-based educator indance for about.
13 years now I had my ownexperiences where I had to
completely rethink my teachingstrategies.
I wrote this piece in RethinkingSchools.
It's called Teaching Dance forTransformation, where I sort of
recount this pivotal moment inmy teaching.
And as a dancer, as a danceteacher, we're oftentimes taught
(08:34):
5, 6, 7, 8.
Do it again.
Stand up straight.
Look at yourself in the mirror.
You have to be perfect again andagain.
So I very much internalized thisperfectionism complex that then
started to seep into myteaching.
Now it's interesting because I,flow through wanting to create
space for freedom andliberation, and also reflect
critically on my experiences asa teacher.
(08:57):
And I had a group of students atthe time when I first moved to
DC mostly black girls, and theyhad all of these questions.
They were like, miss Sierra, canwe learn about black history and
dance?
'cause we don't learn it atschool.
Or can we talk about currentevents because the world is
messed up and I wanna figure outwhat to do about it.
And I'm like, sure.
Let's figure out how we can dothis.
(09:17):
And through the course of thissemester, this couple of
semesters with the students, westarted to just co-create our
own curriculum.
And that was long before I knewanything about curriculum
development.
Ended up going back to school'cause I wanted to be better for
my students and actually have atheoretical backing.
And what we were doing.
But through that, they wanted tolearn how to improv because
(09:37):
that's important in dance,especially if they wanted to
become professional dancers.
But I didn't scaffold thelesson.
I didn't really ever createspace for them to be free in
their bodies.
It was always like, I'm theteacher with the choreography.
You do the choreography, andthat's sort of it.
And so I had this moment when Iwas teaching, we're doing the
improv.
(09:58):
I turned on the music and I'mlike, just do whatever you feel
like.
Now I made a lot of mistakes, ofcourse, right?
Didn't scaffold it.
And also just had not created acontainer in my classroom for
students to be free, and it wasreally hard for me.
But then I moved out of thatsort of pedagogy of thinking
about how, as me as a teacherhave all of the knowledge and
the information to how can weco-create this experience
(10:20):
together?
And so my students were the onesthat really influenced and
helped to change and shift mypedagogy to now where it's
really important for me tocreate these joyful spaces
because the world is harsh,right?
The world is on fire in so manydifferent ways.
So how can my classroom be aspace where students can ask
those critical questions?
Because they're already askingquestions about the world around
(10:42):
them.
So how can they feel safe toexplore, to test out new ideas,
to experiment, and then also tocreate change and act in service
of the questions that they have.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11 (10:53):
That's such a great vision, I think for
the education system and whereit could be different from how
it is today.
I think we've been learning alot in this recent, bunch of
episodes that we've done andthroughout our recording history
about the educational system inour country and how it started
and the fight over it.
(11:14):
'cause it really has been afight, For the vision of what
education and public educationin particular.
Should be and is.
And I think it's been reallyeye-opening to just see how
pivotal the education system hasbeen in shaping the narrative of
our history and our country andhow we view everything.
(11:36):
And we've been reading a lotabout The recent episodes that
we've been doing.
It's just, it's fascinating tome when people can see a
different vision.
So I guess I would wonder haveyou come up against a lot of
pushback against the vision thatyou've had, and why do you think
that controversy exists?
And why is public education soimportant for how we teach our
(11:59):
children and the vision that wehave for the world?
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (12:02):
Hmm.
cierra-kaler-jones- (12:02):
absolutely.
There's been a lot of pushback.
I think, especially in my roleas executive director at
Rethinking Schools.
I'm very fortunate in that I getto support educators all over
the country and all over theworld that are living out these
visions every day in theirclassroom, finding spaces that
they can carve out to.
Be in conversation with studentsto engage in critical
(12:24):
consciousness building, to havejoy, to have art, to do
community building exercises andwork, especially in an education
system that is so confined bystandards and accountability and
standardized testing.
And so I think all of it, likeyou're talking about.
Goes back to the roots in thehistory of public schooling and
of education with the, withinthe United States and the
(12:47):
history.
So when I think about thehistory, I think about the
conformity and control.
That has been really at the helmof what education has been, or I
would rather say schooling thaneducation because I think
they're two totally differentthings.
And when I say schooling, I'mtalking about this process for
conformity, this process ofcontrol versus the education,
(13:10):
which is a lifelong learningprocess and commitment to
learning and to growing and todeveloping.
So I think about us schooling, Ithink about things even like the
school bells.
That are in schools, right?
The history of that is part ofindustrialization to in embed
students in the process ofbecoming factory workers, right?
(13:31):
So a lot of.
Schooling in the United Stateshas also been about capitalism,
is about quote unquote producingstudents, making them producers
for capitalism.
And then I also think aboutcolonization as part of the
control process.
I think about indigenousboarding schools and having
students cut off their hair,which is really important in and
(13:52):
critical in indigenouscommunities as a way of making
them conform and having themchange their clothes.
I even.
Had this opportunity a couple ofyears ago to travel to Alaska.
To learn from the Association ofAlaska School Boards and a lot
of the really incredible workthat they're doing.
And part of what the studentswere fighting for was to be able
(14:12):
to wear their traditionalclothing to graduation instead
of a cap and gown to be able toeat their cultural foods like
moose, stew, seal stew at schoolrather than frozen pizza as part
of their federally funded lunchprograms.
So I see so many different waysthat.
Young people that educators arereally fighting back and I think
(14:34):
that the roots of all of thepushback are so deep and I think
what we are navigating now ispart of what.
Many historians and scholars andeducators have shown the
connections between periods ofadvancement towards social and
racial justice have always beenmet back with periods of white
supremacist backlash.
(14:55):
And we are in this period ofbacklash, we can see go all the
way back.
Enslavement, there wasresistance, and then there's
backlash reconstruction, there'sbacklash.
The gains of the Civil Rightsmovement backlash, right?
So every period where there'sbeen advancement, there has
always been backlash, and thatbacklash is a means of
(15:16):
controlling us and a means ofkeeping, Up systems of
oppression so that capitalismcan continue to thrive so that
the wealthy can continue to havepower by way of having more
resources in a capitalistsystem.
So all of this is so deep and sothat's just, those are some of
the different things that I'vebeen thinking a lot about is
(15:38):
just always grounding myself.
In the history, always groundingmyself in the patterns and also
having conversations withstudents to help illuminate and
be in discussion about thepatterns.
Because if we don't learn aboutthis history, which is what
those in power don't want us todo, when we know about this
history, then we know.
(15:59):
That we can organize against it.
And that's what they don't want.
They don't want that actionpiece.
They don't want that next step.
And then we also learn aboutmultiracial coalitions that have
always led us closer to justice,and that's part of what they
don't want us to learn either.
So there's so many pieces of it.
So many details, but just wantedto lift up.
Those are some of the thingsthat I'm thinking about even as
(16:20):
we experience the backlash andthe pushback against this really
important.
View and this really importantorientation to what education
can and should be.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (16:31):
Those connections, being able to make
those links between whitesupremacy, capitalism,
patriarchy, hetero patriarchy,colonialism, like all of those
pieces, how they sink.
Together and are so interwovenan education that is actively
gaslighting students to say,there's nothing to see here.
(16:51):
That only serves those in powerwho want those systems to last.
But I really appreciate yourpoint that as, as old and as as
deep as those roots are of thosesystems.
So too are the roots ofresistance and the communities
and the ways that people havebeen in solidarity with each
other and what we can learn fromthat too.
(17:12):
Something that I, listening toyou talk and knowing about your
experiences as an artist, andI'm listening to you talk about
being a dancer and I dance formy own joy.
That is it.
That's the only reason anybodywould ever want to see me dance
is oh, that lady looks happy.
That would be it.
But I'm wondering if you canjust share a little bit before
(17:32):
we start talking to you aboutrethinking School specifically
just.
Of the power of art asresistance and dance as
resistance.
When I think about, your work asa dancer or your time as Miss
New Jersey there are thesecommunities that are deeply
embedded with hetero patriarchy,white supremacy, all of these
things.
(17:52):
You gen, ableism, sexism, all ofthese things, but they're also.
They Art can be such anincredibly powerful space for
healing resistance, all of that.
So do you wanna just share alittle bit about how you see
dance or just the arts broadlyas a place for resistance work?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her (18:12):
Oh, yes.
There's so many ways, and I'llfirst start by saying part of
the research that.
Is a part of my heart's work hasreally been about examining why
arts education is often thefirst to be cut.
That's how I got actuallyinterested in and involved in
education in the first place,was being a high school student
(18:32):
whose school board cut the artsprograms and we started
organizing long before I knewwhat organizing.
And we were successful in ourcampaign.
They reinstated the artsprograms from the organizing,
but I started to have a lot ofquestions of why arts was the
first to be cut.
And so part of what I try toargue in my research is that one
of the reasons why is because.
(18:53):
The folks in power don't want usto create, and they don't want
us to dream.
Because when we dream and whenwe dream in community and we
dream in collaboration, thenwe're able to see that there are
other possibilities than whatcurrently exist.
And that's why I think art is soimportant because it does offer
us the capacity, thepossibility.
(19:15):
The strategy and the vision forbeing able to create the worlds
that we deserve to live in.
So I always like to start therebecause I think that's an
important piece of doing artswork is it is something that is
deeply personal.
It is embodied, but it's alsosomething that can be very
powerful and collective.
And when I think about the work.
(19:37):
With dance.
When I think about the artswork, I think about the work
that I do organizing with youngpeople In dc I co organize a
program called Black Girl Soarand SOAR is an acronym for
Scholarship Organizing, arts andResistance.
And I work with black girls inDC and helping them and
supporting them in creating Artfor Change.
(19:58):
So we've done everything fromcreating zines about social
justice topics.
They love, I'm doing some workright now with a group of young
people.
And young people, meaning bothgirls and also transgender,
non-conforming young people aswell.
We are doing a project inpartnership with the Monument
Lab in Philadelphia where theyoung people are creating
(20:20):
monuments from scratch.
They're creating monuments andreimagining what monuments can
be and look like, especially inthis moment where we've seen.
The resistance of community makeit so that some of these harmful
monuments are taken down, andnow we're seeing the resurgence
of placing those monuments rightback up.
And so there are so many waysthat we can create and create
(20:41):
for a future is what I think isan important piece of this.
Another critical part that Iwould love to lift up is just
the healing the joy, like yousaid, Katie, like just the joy
of movement, the joy of movingtogether.
Because not only am I a danceteacher, but I also teach bar.
I've been a fitness instructorfor a long time, and there's
something really important to meabout creating space for people
(21:05):
to take care of themselves.
In this oppressive society, inthis harmful society, we need to
be well in order to fight.
And so the.
Those in power, the opposition.
They do not want us to be theydo not want us to have joy
because they don't want us toresist because they know when we
show up in our full humanitythat we can resist and we can
(21:26):
resist powerfully.
So that's another piece of artthat I think is really important
is the healing aspects of it,but also how it enables us to
really take care of ourselves,especially when those in power
don't want us to be able to dothat.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11-2 (21:41):
That is so true.
I had an experience that just.
Totally fit in with that.
This weekend I was up in SaltLake for a conference and just
happened to be over the sametime that John Batiste had a
concert, At an outdooramphitheater there at the Red
Butte Gardens.
And so a friend of mine and Iwent to his concert and Andre
Day was performing with him aswell.
(22:02):
And it was so amazing becausethis is Salt Lake City, Utah.
There's.
That place was full of some oldwhite people.
There were so many old whitepeople there, but at one point,
like he stopped the song that hewas doing and said, listen.
We are here to bring joy.
We are here to get you moving,to inspire you to make this a
(22:25):
night where you feel connectedwith yourself and connected with
others.
He's this is not gonna work ifyou don't get up and dance.
And he was like, everybody geton your feet and move your body.
And he actually came like outinto the audience with his whole
band and they all came out anddanced with people out there and
it was like.
These are the experiences thatdo bring people together.
(22:47):
They All where we can connectand you think that it's just a
concert and it's just a bunch ofpeople out, having a fun time.
But Deeper than that.
Like the joy and the healingthat brings is so much more
important than the surface
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (23:01):
yes.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (23:02):
Now we're down an arts rabbit hole
bed.
This is so great.
I'm thinking of the, thestereotype of the white audience
being just so stoic
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (23:08):
Yes.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (23:09):
white church, like hushed tone, sit in
your seat, don't move.
And there, I think it's a tropefor a reason.
Like that is my experience thatit is.
Like painful sometimes to be ina space where that is the norm,
that is the expectation that youdo not emote.
You do not emit, you do not makea peep.
(23:32):
You know that it is, that theway that whiteness operates in
terms of how you experience.
Music the way that you are incommunity together and just how
truly awkward it can be to starttrying to let go of those
lessons that have been taught toyou from such a young age to,
(23:52):
and it's connected to class ingeneral and all sorts of other
things, but I just I have anexperience too when grad school.
Back in the day, this hip hopartist canine who I love just is
wonderful, happened to be comingthrough Madison in this like
tiny little venue and a friendand I were so excited, and he
came in.
It was all these like Midwesternwhite dudes, and a few young
(24:15):
women in this audience.
And it's, it.
was impossible to tell thatpeople were enjoying themselves.
And I believe that they were,but it was like the way
Midwestern, like maybe there islike a sway of a quarter inch,
which should tell you thatthey're really into it, and he
got on the mic, he's I don'tunderstand what's happening.
And he is I'm out and left.
He's I can't with you.
(24:36):
And I.
So much appreciation for thatdecision.
Yes, this has to be impo.
It's like the, and then the waythat it is so liberating and
beautiful and powerful to be ina space where people are fully
human and embracing that andjust how disorienting that can
be for people who've in, intheir religious community, their
(24:57):
family life, their neighborhoodshave been taught over and over
again.
Don't move, don't feel
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (25:03):
Yeah,
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (25:04):
that disconnect.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (25:05):
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (25:05):
Well, And we bring that, I Bring that
back to schooling, like the waythat children just are.
You sit still, you listen, youdon't interact.
That's just so built into all ofit.
cierra-kaler-jones- (25:15):
absolutely.
That's what I was gonna say isthat even the different ways
that we police when students cango to the bathroom and when they
can't.
Like it's all, I believe inservice of getting them, like
you said Mandy earlier aboutgetting away from being
connected with our bodies.
Also the intuitive knowledgethat our bodies hold.
I'm really big on talking aboutthat because we know oftentimes
(25:40):
what we need, but this schoolingin particular as a colonizing,
as a conformity practice triesto get us away from some of that
intuitive knowledge.
Favor of fact.
And I'm not trying to disputethat there are facts, but I'm
just saying that also we have toregard like this level of
(26:00):
spirit.
I think a lot about Dr.
Cynthia Dillard's work and thespirit of our work and what does
it mean to reclaim ourrelationship with our intuitive
knowledge and our bodies andschooling so often gets us away
from that.
For example, I'm a trained yogainstructor as well.
Okay.
And there was a period of timewhere I was traveling to
(26:20):
different schools and doing yogawith young people dur oftentimes
during their gym period.
And I will never forget, therewas a school that I went to that
had lines on the floor.
And students could only walk onthose lines during certain
periods of the day.
And if you got off of the line,you got a demerit.
(26:41):
And I'm like, what is going on?
And then they bring this yogainstructor in.
I'm like, this does not feellike it's aligned at all.
And then I go into the gym roomand the gym teacher Was like,
alright, the yoga teacher'shere, sit down, close your eyes
and be quiet.
I'm like.
That's not what yoga is, right.
Getting us away from our body.
(27:02):
And this also, I think thisweaponization and the
sanitization of these importantspiritual connective practices
for us, how oftentimes they get.
They use it as a form ofpunishment when in reality it's
not that.
And, that's just one example ofone story.
I know so many teachers that arealso doing really great work in
(27:24):
bringing those practices intotheir classrooms and really
thoughtful and intentional waysand creating space for students
to be free.
So I, I never wanna leave thatpart out.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (27:34):
We, Sierra, we're gonna have to have
you back.
We have all these other seasonsmapped out.
We're focused right now onmotherhood, but we keep coming
Up against beauty and wellnessindustry and
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her (27:45):
Oh, yes,
katy_1_09-11-2025_11092 (27:46):
operate in those spaces.
That's like a whole other seasonfor, 15 years that we could do
next.
But it's making me think of theone of the recent articles you
worked on about mindfulness inschools and how that is being
co-opted in a way.
To just uphold white supremacy.
I have a former doc student thatI worked with who moved away and
(28:07):
started working in K 12 againand wrote me that she couldn't
believe this district didrestorative justice and was
really excited and then came torealize that there was a closet
in the school that had beenconverted to the restorative
justice room with a stack ofpre-printed blank apology
templates.
And so a student would be sent.
To the closet to go fill out theapology and come back.
(28:30):
Like how things can be just somutated.
Truly, I wanna have you back onfor a conversation about the way
that wellness.
Is weaponized, as i, but inschools too, mindfulness being
something that's brought in as apart of social emotional
learning, but it's really justlet me do breath work to get you
to not react to the racism thatI'm doing to you.
(28:52):
Or, it like putting it on thekid to somehow navigate a
horrible system.
But just be more quiet about itwith these techniques.
I, in the article you wrote,we'll link to in the show notes,
but anything you wanna say, Iswear we'll ask you about
Rethinking Schools, but that isjust too good to ask you about
right now.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (29:09):
Yeah, so I, it, yeah, so many things
about that.
And I'm so grateful to the, mycollaborator, collaborators, and
co-authors on that piece.
That really shepherded thatpiece forward.
And I came into that piece witha background in social emotional
learning work because at thetime that I was, writing with my
(29:29):
collaborators and thinking aboutthese topics.
I was working at an organizationcalled Communities for Just
Schools Fund and SocialEmotional Learning was really
emerging amongst the partners ofthe organization.
So their partners are a lot ofgrassroots community organizers
that are.
Fighting for education justicein different ways, shapes and
forms.
And so we did skill sharesaround it.
We did a community of practice,lots of just learning together
(29:52):
of what does this mean?
What does it look like?
And so throughout that process,I was traveling to different
schools also, and I went to aschool that had the castle, SEL
tenants.
On in every hallway, in everyclassroom posted.
And under the under the pointabout social and cultural
(30:15):
awareness, it said keep yourhands, feet, and property to
yourself, or something likethat.
And I saw it and I took apicture of it and I brought it
back to the community that wewere working with.
And we were all just what?
Out of all examples of socialand cultural awareness, you
choose something that's not.
Even related at all, and in manydifferent cultures, one of the
(30:37):
ways that we communicate witheach other is through play and
through roughhousing.
That's how we show each other,that we care about each other
and we love each other.
And in schools that's notallowed.
So you know all of the differentpieces of it, but
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (30:49):
Even just the idea of property too.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (30:51):
Yes.
Your
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (30:52):
a uni cultural universal.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (30:53):
Yes.
Yes.
The idea of property.
So we were really examining thatand then we were able to put out
a a report that we wrote aboutsocial emotional learning and
about how people wereweaponizing castle's, tenants as
a way of making it so that I, inthis other article that I wrote
on Medium, it's called When SELis Used as another form of
(31:16):
Policing, I was writing about.
How they were using SEL forpolicing to say, if you do not
act and you do not express youremotions in these very rigid
ways, which is like what youwere talking about, Katie, with
the way that it, as you weretalking about the way that white
people are often taught to notemote it.
(31:38):
It's if you don't conform tothis really whitewashed standard
of expressing your emotions,then you are punished or you are
policed when we all experienceand express emotions in
different ways.
And that was just a big.
Noticing that I had as I wasgoing to different schools and
seeing how people were reallytaking that and then running
(31:59):
with it.
Now it's interesting becauseafter putting out that article
and being in conversation with alot of folks, a lot of schools
started to change theirpractices and a lot of it too, I
also have to lift up, was reallygrounded in Dina Simmons work
and how she was one of the firstto really push forward of how.
Mindfulness and social emotionallearning.
And emotional intelligence wasreally being weaponized in
(32:22):
schools and also in workplacesas a way to make particularly
black and brown and indigenousfolks and students with
disabilities and transgendertransgender students and
non-conforming students to makethem conform by way of only
expressing their emotions in.
In very rigid ways.
(32:42):
So I've seen that.
And then you were talking aboutrestorative justice.
I've learned so much from therestorative justice partnership
and work that I've been able todo with them over the past
couple of years.
Just in how a lot of these,there's so many, oh my gosh.
ESEL too does this where theyhave the, these companies emerge
and they have this SELcurriculum or this restorative
(33:02):
justice curriculum, right?
All capitalism.
And then it's like you buy thisprepackaged curriculum.
And then tell teachers that in amatter of less than a week, they
have to then go implement thiscurriculum and it's really
expensive curriculum.
And that's not at that, at theroot of what social emotional
(33:24):
learning and restorative justiceand mindfulness is supposed to
be about.
It is completely erased when wehave this type of prepackaged
curriculum.
Because it has to be based onthe individual.
It has to be based on thecommunity.
It has to be co-created, right?
Like you have to use theseprocesses by way of being in
relationship with each other andtaking this curriculum that
(33:47):
people pay for and just ploppingit into an already unjust
system.
That doesn't do anything.
And from organizers, I'velearned that transformation
means that once something istransformed, it can never go
back to the way that it was.
So if you're just ploppingjustice or equity or restorative
justice on an unjust system thatdoesn't do anything, it's just,
(34:08):
it's Bettina Love talks aboutthis concept of these cosmetic
changes.
Like it looks good, it feelsgood on the surface.
We pat ourselves on the back,but.
It doesn't do anything.
It just makes something that issupposed to be restorative and
loving and liberatory and justit sanitizes it and makes it
something that's actually reallyharmful.
(34:29):
I could talk about that forever.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (34:31):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I can think of examples of it,like my own kids going through
elementary school and know andseeing those programs come
through and watching how they'retaught those programs and
thinking, this is not what thisis supposed to be This is not
working and it's not at all thevision that they're meant to
actually carry out,
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (34:52):
think it's so hard, knowing that the
demographics of the professionin public schools being so
overrepresented by white womenin specifically, and this is not
the experience of every whitewoman.
So I'm talking white women.
I'm not, I'm talking broadstrokes here, but if you have
never experienced.
That kind of community orrelationship, or you've never
(35:14):
ex, experienced what it feelslike to engage with people and
have it not be.
Ruled by white supremacy orableism or sexism.
It's so difficult for you tofacilitate a community that
doesn't center those things.
Even if you, that, even if youdon't want to participate in
that, it's so difficult toimagine how else it could be.
(35:35):
And to your point about the artsbeing so important, just being
able to A, have thoseexperiences so you even know
what it means when we talkabout, liberatory practices or a
community of a belovedcommunity, like what that even
is.
And then to be able to imaginesomething different when you're
talking about these systems thatare so entrenched and even the
(35:58):
ways that teachers are preparedand how that education is
standardized and what's left outof most teacher prep programs
and you know what, so it's justsuch a cycle.
And I think part of what we'vebeen reading about with the work
of these white women is just howdeliberate they've been for
generations.
I, we always go back, should wesay they should.
We say we.
(36:18):
It's, I don't, we don't wannaaffiliate ourselves with these
people.
They're like pretty just theways that they have so expertly
influenced these systems andthen the ways that they've
hidden the work, like reallyexplicitly.
Hit papered over what they didor downplayed as a strategy for
protecting that work too.
(36:39):
So there we joke about howthere's all these, like
commemorations monuments andorganizations that have these
really innocuous, soundingnames, but are the vehicles for
all sorts of really horriblethings.
And so they, there have been amillion different organizations
on the other side, organizationsthat have been working for.
(37:00):
Transformation of those systemsare alternate systems.
It's harder to find thoseorganizations, and yet I know
that they've existed.
The resistance has always beenthere, but at least for me,
rethinking Schools is one of theorganizations that comes to mind
immediately as an organizationthat has been really dedicated
(37:20):
and.
Really meaningful to so manypeople as a space to help people
imagine, to help them connect,to help them understand what's
happening so that they can startto interfere with those systems
and to build somethingdifferent.
So can you tell us a little bitof just what the roots of that
organization are, how it gotstarted, its mission?
(37:41):
Just introduce us to RethinkingSchools.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (37:44):
Yeah, so Thinking Schools is a
nation's leading grassrootspublisher for racial and social
justice and education.
Our work is really aimed atstrengthening and.
And protecting public educationthrough education activism and
through social justice teaching.
And I love the origin stories ofrethinking schools particularly,
(38:05):
especially as we are enteringinto our 40th anniversary as an
organization, which I think isreally important and special to
uplift, just as gratitude to thefounders and the volunteers who
have really shepherded thispolitical project forward and
been at the helm of not only thecreation, but.
Holding it together for so longbecause many other organizations
(38:27):
have not been able to withstandthis political backlash, not
only of this moment, but ofother moments.
And so I think just thelongevity of the organization is
really powerful to uplift.
And I love the origin storiesand thinking about the founders
of Rethinking Schools who wereteachers in Milwaukee.
And realized that the curriculumthat they were receiving, the
(38:49):
standardized testing washarmful.
The curriculum and the textbookswere whitewashed and sanitized.
And so they were finding ways toresist within their own
classrooms.
And then they got together andcreated their own tabloid that
they just started printing offof the printers in their homes
and then distributing to all ofthe teachers in Milwaukee.
And after a lot of organizingand a lot of, working in
(39:11):
coalition and community withother, cities and other
locations across the country.
The organization started to growand grow to where this tabloid
became a quarterly magazine towhere the quarterly magazine
also seeded books forpublication that also led way to
campaigns.
And so right now we have severalcampaigns, some of our newest.
(39:32):
Being teaching Palestine andsupporting educators and talking
about ongoing genocidetransgender justice in schools,
especially in light of all ofthe legislation that is seeking
to police and punish transgenderstudents.
We have teacher unions andsocial justice teaching for
black lives and so many otherways that we try to support
(39:52):
teachers that our work is, it's.
It's multifaceted in that thereis the narrative piece of this
in that at a time when so muchof the legislation is trying to
erase our histories.
For us to be able to write ourown stories and our own words
and pass them down in print isan act of resistance.
So that we have a story, we havea history that we can pass down
(40:14):
for years to come.
But then there's also the pieceof the organization that is
really about.
Bringing educators together toshare strategies, to share
glimmers of possibility in theclassroom to help.
Educators experience hope,especially when we know that
there is a teacher shortage andteachers are carrying so much.
(40:35):
Teachers are being doxed andterminated.
And suspended and punished forteaching the truth to children.
So to be able to create spaceswhere educators can come
together to talk about theseissues, but also to strategize
and to feel a sense of communityis really important.
We get so many of those storiesfrom teachers that say that,
our.
(40:56):
Our virtual sessions where theyget to come together, it helps
them feel like they're notalone.
Because some of them are reallyisolated and some of them are
the only in their schooldistrict or in their school that
are teaching in service ofsocial justice.
And so I think we have to reallybe intentional and strategic and
creating these spaces so that wehave a teacher, a trying to
(41:18):
think of the word, like agroundswell of teachers who are
really embedded in teaching forsocial justice, but also so that
they have to support, to dobecause I know it's not easy
period, but it's also especiallynot easy during a time period of
political backlash.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (41:36):
Yeah, I was looking over the website
and there are just, there's somany resources on there that I
think even from a non-educator.
Perspective.
I'm like, oh, I need to readthis and I need to like, I need
to know this myself.
And I think about, I come from adifferent background than
education, and so my question isalways how does more of like
(41:58):
just your regular everyday mom.
Go about using this material orasking for this material to be
brought in schools or Findingteachers who are interested in
teaching this material.
And do you have any thoughts onthat or any resources that just
regular community members canuse to support rethinking
schools and how to get thatinformation to our public
(42:22):
schools that our own children goto?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her- (42:24):
Oh yes, definitely.
I think first and foremost thata lot of our materials, even
though geared toward teacherswe've had parents who have
written for the magazine aswell, so there is some parent
stories in the pages of themagazine to also lift up their
experiences.
And I think that while written.
For the teacher lens.
(42:44):
A, just as you're saying Mandy,that there are ways that parents
and community members andorganizers can really use the
materials to advocate and toorganize.
And I think too, finding some ofthose educators in your
community who are really deeplyembedded in social justice and
interest, introducing them torethinking schools.
We always encourage people toalso show up at school board
(43:05):
meetings because we know that.
Some folks that show up to theschool board meetings that are
very well organized and veryvocal.
And so we have to be just asvocal or even running for school
board yourself is what weencourage people to do so that
we have we're building thatpolitical power within the lens
of local organizing.
And I also will lift up at ZenEducation Project, which is
(43:28):
co-ordinated by RethinkingSchools and Teaching for Change.
Every year we have a Teach TruthDay of Action, and that Teach
Truth Day of Action reallystarted as a way to push back
against the anti critical racetheory bans.
And it is a day when teacherspublicly pledged to teach truth
regardless of the law, but alsoparents and community members.
(43:51):
Publicly pledged to supportteachers regardless of the law.
Because one of the ways that weare inviting and encouraging and
asking parents and communitymembers is to show up is that if
you see or hear of an educatorthat is being doxed or
terminated, to be able to showup for them and offer support by
ways of, lifting up the waysthat they may have had an impact
(44:12):
on.
On your student, on your childor on the community or something
that they've done to say,actually, no, I support them and
I support what they're doing.
And this is what we need more ofin our schools because they need
that as part of the file.
They need those positivestories.
And I'll also lift up one of thepartners for Zen Education
Project and the Teach Truth Dayof Action is Red Wine and Blue.
(44:33):
If y'all have been involved orintroduced to them
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (44:36):
No.
I'm so glad you mentioned thatbecause I came across them in
the last election cycle andthought, oh, we should reach out
to have a conversation withthem.
So that's, thank you for.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (44:45):
Yeah.
They've been
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (44:47):
so what, how have they partnered
and how did that relationshipget established?
What are the kinds of actionsthat they're taking?
This is a group of, I don't knowif they're exclusively white
women, but I think of it as likewhite moms who are trying to use
their, like leverage whatevercapital they have for
progressive political lines.
And maybe that's a, like broadstrokes what they do, but yeah
(45:09):
how are they partnering?
What are the actions they'retaking?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (45:11):
Yeah, so for the Teach Truth Day of
Action, one of the ways thatthey've been really supportive,
of course, is lifting it upwithin their own organizing
strategies and also within theschools that many of their
children go to.
And, one of the reasons why Ilift them up is because of y
y'all's focus on talking withand thinking about moms.
And they've also done some.
(45:33):
I'm trying to think of the nameof it, but they've basically
done, they've done differentworkshops and strategy sessions
for their members in teachingthem about why education justice
is important.
So I think that's something tolift up as well.
And teaching them aboutnarrative strategies, teaching
them about organizing tacticsand techniques because they're
really trying to fight againstthe Moms for Liberty and the
(45:53):
other really conservative momgroups by saying, actually no,
there are moms that are fightingfor just.
And this is what it can looklike.
And here's, they're providing alot of really tangible hands-on
tools and strategies to be ableto do that.
So I would definitely lift themup, especially in the work that
you all are doing.
They've been a really goodpartner for the Teach Truth Day
of Action
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (46:16):
any specific stories stand out to,
you're a storyteller.
Storytelling is important toyou, and I'm wondering at what,
in your time with RethinkingSchools, what are one or two
stories that stand out as.
Ways that parents, families, andeducators have worked together
to push back on something, tocreate something new.
(46:36):
That's amazing.
What stories of maybe hope orpossibility when people are
aware and are taking actiontogether.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (46:45):
Yeah.
One thing you know I'll lift upis the study groups that we
have.
There are groups of educators,of parents, of community
organizers who get copies of abook, say for example, teaching
for Black Lives.
Right now.
We've actually just launched ourteaching Palestine study groups
and we have had people fromPuerto Rico.
We've had groups, in Nebraskagroups really all over the
(47:10):
country and all over the worldwho are coming together to
engage in deep political studybecause we think that's an
important part of this educationwork is to ensure that people
are really equipped with theknowledge and the information to
understand some of these issues,to understand the historical
context of the issues, and thenalso what teachers and.
(47:30):
Parents and organizers aredoing.
And so some of these studygroups have been able to change
policies in their school.
I think about the teaching forBlack Lives Study groups, who
is, there's over 300 studygroups across the country now.
For that book in particular.
And as part of that work, yeah,there's just so many stories of
groups that have changed racistdress code policies because of
(47:52):
something that they, one of thearticles that they read in the
Teaching for Black Lives book.
There have been groups I thinkabout the new teacher book as
well for.
Groups that have bought copiesof the new teacher book and then
shared it with all of their newteachers every year as a way of
providing hope and ininspiration and being like,
you're not in this alone.
(48:13):
We can do this together to helpreally keep up the morale and
the spirit.
So there, there's just so manyways in so many stories.
And then one.
One of the stories too that'salso really close to my heart is
just thinking about the teachersthat we've been able to work
with, who have been terminatedand that have been doxed.
We did a webinar actually withseveral of those teachers and
(48:34):
some of those teacher storiesare featured in Rethinking
Schools Magazine and one of oureditors and one of my comrades
and good friends, JesseHagopian, in his new book, teach
Truth also lifted up thosestories.
And I just think about thoseteachers who.
We're creating spaces forstudents to be free, to be
liberated in their classroomsand to engage in critical
(48:56):
dialogue and conversation.
And there's so many stories ofthose teachers who.
Would also in thinking aboutcommunities and parents, there
were so many communities andparents that rallied behind
them, that showed up at schoolboard meetings, that wrote notes
for their files that talkedabout how great of an educator
that they were as a means ofshowing that support.
(49:16):
So I also like to lift up thosestories as well as I think
there's change in that too, iseven changing the trajectory of
a teacher's experience becauseof the power of community around
them.
And.
And I think that's reallyimportant too, is like we have
to really rally around teachersright now.
We are experiencing what isanother McCarthyism era.
(49:38):
Like a lot of these teachers arebeing put on trial.
A lot of these teachers are, arebeing talked about on the House
of Representatives floor inCongress because of the justice
work that they're doing.
So we have to be equally as.
As vocal as our opposition, andwe have to lift up these stories
of resistance and these storiesof hope and of possibility for
(50:00):
what education can and shouldbe.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (50:04):
Yeah, I appreciate all of those
thoughts.
That makes me also think of aparallel in healthcare of.
Where people I know that I workwith, and I've had these
thoughts myself, a lot of is iteven worth it to stay in this
Can I really fix it in any sortof meaningful way?
Or is it too much on my,emotional state, on my spiritual
(50:30):
state, on, all of those thingsto just fight against that
continued oppression andpushback and even danger.
Really People who stand up tothese oppressive systems are in.
Um, and I'm so grateful forpeople who are willing to do
that in Spheres.
But I just think of how hard itis, and I think there's so much
(50:52):
beauty in rethinking the waythat things could be.
And I always credit Katie forbeing the one of us who is like
the hope and the vision and thejoy.
And I'm always like the DebbieDowner over here just but I love
having resources and storiesthat inspire us of, people who
are doing things and who arepushing ahead and still trying
(51:15):
to make that difference becauseit certainly isn't gonna happen
without it.
Yeah.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (51:19):
Yes.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (51:20):
I think that's great.
I'm gonna ask one last questionthat I'm looking at the time.
It feels like a Pandora's boxquestion to throw out there at
the last second, but I think toMandy's point.
Thinking of transforming systemsversus, and it doesn't have to
be, versus transforming systemsas one place to put our
energies.
Another place to put ourenergies is creating something
(51:43):
new.
Creating your own community,your own way of doing things.
I think for some people.
Sometimes the charter system oreven voucher system seems like
perhaps a, way to enter thosespaces.
I have qualms about that, justknowing the history of those
tools and the politics of thosetools.
But it, I'm curious how Youmakesense of, that.
(52:08):
Work from within system,transformational approach, and
create our own community andworld where kids can thrive and
be who they are.
Those aren't mutually exclusive,but how do you apportion your
energies or how do you thinkabout that?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (52:26):
Yeah.
So one of the things that I havebeen trying to adopt is this
mindset of both, and that we canhave both.
And think that we have to investin public schools because it
touches so many children.
And when we take away thoseresources for charter schools
and other schools, it takes awayresources from being able to
(52:49):
create really incrediblelearning spaces for all
students.
And.
I also think as we lookhistorically, there are so many
beautiful models of liberatoryeducation, like freedom schools.
I think about the BlackPanthers.
I think about even like theHighlander Folk Center and the
organizing that we can learnoutside of schools.
(53:10):
I think we have to have both.
We have to have a really strong,robust critical.
Education, public educationsystem and all of the promises
of what it can and should be.
And then we also need some otherspaces too that are really
subversive learning spaces.
I think about for Zen EducationProject, we also do this Teach
(53:30):
the Black Freedom StruggleCourse series where we have
educators and conversation witha historian.
One of the stories thatoftentimes stays with me is that
of Jarvis Gibbon's FugitivePedagogy.
I really love the framing aroundthat, where he talks about how
black educators have alwaysengaged in this practice of
fugitive education that isfugitive, that is illegal.
(53:53):
And he says this to make itreally tangible.
He talks about this story aboutTessie McGee a young teacher, a
young black woman teacher in theSouth.
Who would have Carter gWoodson's textbook, like on her
lap and then the corporatetextbook on the desk.
And then when the administratorwould come in, like all the
students knew the drill of likehow to position the book so that
(54:13):
the administrator would see thatthey were reading this corporate
textbook.
But reality, they were learningCarter g Woodson.
And so much of that is alreadyhappening in classrooms.
We need that fugitive pedagogyin those spaces.
And then we also need thefreedom schools.
We need the community basededucation.
We need the political educationand deep political study and
community.
And I think too, because so manyschools have operated as
(54:36):
fortress schools and keepingfamilies and communities out
there is a need to bring morecommunity, bring more family
into school, and then viceversa, right?
All of the learning that we cando together, the
intergenerational strategy andlearning that can happen in
community, that is equally asimportant as what we learn in
school.
So I'm gonna lean into the bothend because I think all of it is
(54:58):
possible, and I think all of itwill lead us closer to what
could possibly be liberation forus all.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (55:05):
Ah, to Tessie, I feel like we just
should toast,
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her- (55:08):
to Tessie.
Yes.
I like, think about Tessie'sstory all the time of like how
can I, and how can rethinkingschools, how can we as a
community support educators whoare doing that kind of like
tessie fugitive pedagogy workand support inside and outside
of school.
And I, I think.
There's so many possibilitiesthere that we have to continue
(55:30):
to lean into and explore, andalso be open to experimentation
of what the model can look like.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (55:37):
Thank you so much for talking today,
but even more importantly, justthank you for all the work that
you have done, all the work thatRethinking Schools is doing.
We'll link to everything in theshow notes and I hope anyone
listening who isn't alreadyconnected to Rethinking Schools
finds a way to.
Support them.
Subscribe to the magazine, buy abook, gift a book to someone,
donate to the organization.
It's incredible work.
(55:58):
So thank you so much and we willcircle back when we inevitably
will wanna talk to you againabout so many other things.
So thank you for your timetoday.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (56:07):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11-2 (56:10):
you.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
mandy---she-her-_2_09-11-202 (00:14):
Hi everybody.
We have such a great interviewfor you today.
We're very excited.
We have talked a couple oftimes, about the organization
Rethinking Schools, and today weare talking to Dr.
Sierra Taylor Jones Katie knewof her from some of her
connections.
We find out about some otherconnections that they have.
(00:36):
It is a really goodconversation.
I just love the way she thinks.
And then also.
Like the way she tells stories,which is really a focus of hers.
And I think everyone is gonnalove this.
I we say that about all of ourinterviews, but it's because
it's true.
It is because it's so true.
So just to introduce her, Dr.
(00:56):
Sierra, killer Jones is a socialjustice educator, writer,
scholar, and artist.
Originally from New Jersey, nowbased in Washington DC She is a
graduate of Rutgers Universityand Douglas Residential College.
And also has a master's degreein curriculum and instruction
from the George WashingtonUniversity.
She has a certificate in Women'sLeadership from the Institute
(01:17):
for Women's Leadership and acertificate in Global
Perspectives in Education.
She earned a PhD in educationfrom the Department of Teaching
and Learning Policy andLeadership at the University of
Maryland College Park.
a community-based researcher,Dr.
Taylor Jones, research broadlyfocuses on how to create and
sustain educational spacesrooted in joy and love, while
(01:40):
refuting control and managementtactics in school that deny
young people opportunities forcreativity and critical
consciousness building that isamazing in and of itself.
Just breaking down all of thefacets of that statement.
She's also a dancer, which weget to talk to her about, which.
We go off on tangents and it'sgreat choreographer,
(02:02):
storyteller, writer, and thesecond black woman to be
crowned, miss New Jersey.
We es especially wanted to talkto her because she is the first
ever executive director ofRethinking Schools, the nation's
leading grassroots publisher forracial and social justice in
education.
Previously, she served as theeducation and new fellow with
Communities for Just Schools andTeaching for Change, and then as
(02:25):
the first director ofstorytelling with Communities
for Just Schools Fund.
In this role, she worked to helpshift national narratives and
education by centering youth,family, and educator organizers.
Experiences and stories ineducation work as Sierra
explains my life's work.
And heart's work is dedicated tostorytelling for social justice,
(02:46):
using narrative change todisrupt the status quo and
dismantle oppressive structuresand systems.
I believe that with stories, wehave the power to create fuller,
deeper, and richer connectionsand in turn, a more radically
empathetic and just world.
And that pretty much justencapsulates.
k-guest81_1_09-11-20 (03:03):
inspiring.
I know that the bio is supersolid and just amazing the work
that she's been doing, and Iloved how we were able to talk
about the arts connection andhow she personally has made the
arts such a big part of herlife, but how she sees that
connected to justice work.
(03:24):
Intimately connected, like youcan't disentangle them and how
that shows up in schools.
It was just a really beautifulconversation.
I left feeling very inspired andexcited and even more motivated
than I normally am to supportrethinking schools.
Because I love thatorganization.
We'll link to them in the shownotes, but if you aren't
(03:45):
familiar, please, please checkout, different publications they
have, campaigns they have goingon, ways you can support them.
just a beautiful organizationthat is celebrating its 40th
year and hopefully 40 more.
mandy---she-her-_2_09-11-2 (03:58):
Yep.
All right.
Enjoy the conversationeverybody.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (04:02):
We're here.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (04:04):
Hi.
Hi.
Oh, we are we, Sierra.
Thank you so much for being withus.
I think one of the firstquestions we always ask, whoever
says yes, is why.
Why did you say yes?
When we reached out to talk toyou, I imagine you get lots of
requests to, to speak and toshare your experiences, your
expertise.
(04:24):
So what was it that made you sayyes to this?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her (04:27):
Oh, thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
And when I got your request, Ithink part of it was because we
have so many connections and somany folks that we love in
common, and also because of,commitments to educational
justice and what does that looklike and what does that mean,
particularly through the frameand the lens of this podcast
(04:47):
and.
As I was thinking about my ownpersonal experiences,
particularly being somebody whowas really introduced to
feminism through the lens ofwhite feminism and academia.
And it wasn't until later in mylife that I was introduced to
theories and frameworks and lifepractices of black feminism and
womanism that I thought thatthis would just be an important
(05:09):
conversation.
And also I think any opportunitythat I get.
To talk about rethinking schoolsand lift up the stories of the
educators to lift up theimportant narrative power
building work that we are doingand that we need to continue to
do.
I'm always up for that.
So thank you for the invitationand I look forward to the
conversation.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (05:30):
We are so excited.
We really nerd out and getjazzed to talk to anybody who
wants to come.
But we just think your work isamazing.
And something that really struckme when we were prepping for
your bio is this, missionstatement that.
You share on your website thatsays you are committed to
working on how to create andsustain educational spaces
rooted in joy and love whilerefuting control and management
(05:54):
tactics in school that denyyoung people opportunities for
creativity and criticalconsciousness building, which I
loved so much and it rang assuch the exact opposite of the
mission of the women we've been.
Reading about who've been forgenerations doing work in school
to do just the opposite of that,like fear and ignorance and
control and punishment andeugenics honestly and trying to.
(06:20):
Make sure that kids don't noticeor think anything is wrong with
the oppressive conditions thatthey're experiencing.
So you mentioned already alittle bit just your
introduction to feminism and howthat has changed over time and
it, so I think we're curious tohear just where your commitment
for that vision of educationcame from.
What shaped that, what sustainsthat?
(06:42):
If you can just walk us through,how you came to that commitment
so clearly.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her- (06:47):
So it comes from a lot of personal
experiences.
I remember being a young studentin K through 12 public schools,
and there are specific storiesthat I remember.
I remember reading HuckleberryFinn Popcorn style in my AP
English class, and there weretwo black students in the class,
and we would always get calledto say the N word and the
(07:07):
teacher being like, oh, it'sokay to say that word, because
that was part of the culture ofthat particular period in
history.
And without any reflection,without any critical
conversations with the students.
And so there were many timeswhere I felt isolated.
There were many times that Ifelt cast aside in my own
educational experiences.
(07:28):
I had a lot of wonderfuleducational experiences as well
that showed me the power and thepossibility of.
Teachers that believed in me andthat teachers that encouraged me
to be curious and to askcritical questions.
Especially as a black andFilipino girl in a pretty rural
area of South Jersey.
For me to be able to take upspace, not only with my voice
(07:50):
and my questions, but also Igrew up dancing.
And so in the dance classroom, Iwas able to physically take up
space with my body in a societythat has often policed my body
and.
Space taking.
So my personal experiencesdefinitely impact and influence
my teaching and my approach toeducation.
And when I became a teacher, adance teacher, I've been a
(08:12):
community-based educator indance for about.
13 years now I had my ownexperiences where I had to
completely rethink my teachingstrategies.
I wrote this piece in RethinkingSchools.
It's called Teaching Dance forTransformation, where I sort of
recount this pivotal moment inmy teaching.
And as a dancer, as a danceteacher, we're oftentimes taught
(08:34):
5, 6, 7, 8.
Do it again.
Stand up straight.
Look at yourself in the mirror.
You have to be perfect again andagain.
So I very much internalized thisperfectionism complex that then
started to seep into myteaching.
Now it's interesting because I,flow through wanting to create
space for freedom andliberation, and also reflect
critically on my experiences asa teacher.
(08:57):
And I had a group of students atthe time when I first moved to
DC mostly black girls, and theyhad all of these questions.
They were like, miss Sierra, canwe learn about black history and
dance?
'cause we don't learn it atschool.
Or can we talk about currentevents because the world is
messed up and I wanna figure outwhat to do about it.
And I'm like, sure.
Let's figure out how we can dothis.
(09:17):
And through the course of thissemester, this couple of
semesters with the students, westarted to just co-create our
own curriculum.
And that was long before I knewanything about curriculum
development.
Ended up going back to school'cause I wanted to be better for
my students and actually have atheoretical backing.
And what we were doing.
But through that, they wanted tolearn how to improv because
(09:37):
that's important in dance,especially if they wanted to
become professional dancers.
But I didn't scaffold thelesson.
I didn't really ever createspace for them to be free in
their bodies.
It was always like, I'm theteacher with the choreography.
You do the choreography, andthat's sort of it.
And so I had this moment when Iwas teaching, we're doing the
improv.
(09:58):
I turned on the music and I'mlike, just do whatever you feel
like.
Now I made a lot of mistakes, ofcourse, right?
Didn't scaffold it.
And also just had not created acontainer in my classroom for
students to be free, and it wasreally hard for me.
But then I moved out of thatsort of pedagogy of thinking
about how, as me as a teacherhave all of the knowledge and
the information to how can weco-create this experience
(10:20):
together?
And so my students were the onesthat really influenced and
helped to change and shift mypedagogy to now where it's
really important for me tocreate these joyful spaces
because the world is harsh,right?
The world is on fire in so manydifferent ways.
So how can my classroom be aspace where students can ask
those critical questions?
Because they're already askingquestions about the world around
(10:42):
them.
So how can they feel safe toexplore, to test out new ideas,
to experiment, and then also tocreate change and act in service
of the questions that they have.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11 (10:53):
That's such a great vision, I think for
the education system and whereit could be different from how
it is today.
I think we've been learning alot in this recent, bunch of
episodes that we've done andthroughout our recording history
about the educational system inour country and how it started
and the fight over it.
(11:14):
'cause it really has been afight, For the vision of what
education and public educationin particular.
Should be and is.
And I think it's been reallyeye-opening to just see how
pivotal the education system hasbeen in shaping the narrative of
our history and our country andhow we view everything.
(11:36):
And we've been reading a lotabout The recent episodes that
we've been doing.
It's just, it's fascinating tome when people can see a
different vision.
So I guess I would wonder haveyou come up against a lot of
pushback against the vision thatyou've had, and why do you think
that controversy exists?
And why is public education soimportant for how we teach our
(11:59):
children and the vision that wehave for the world?
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (12:02):
Hmm.
cierra-kaler-jones- (12:02):
absolutely.
There's been a lot of pushback.
I think, especially in my roleas executive director at
Rethinking Schools.
I'm very fortunate in that I getto support educators all over
the country and all over theworld that are living out these
visions every day in theirclassroom, finding spaces that
they can carve out to.
Be in conversation with studentsto engage in critical
(12:24):
consciousness building, to havejoy, to have art, to do
community building exercises andwork, especially in an education
system that is so confined bystandards and accountability and
standardized testing.
And so I think all of it, likeyou're talking about.
Goes back to the roots in thehistory of public schooling and
of education with the, withinthe United States and the
(12:47):
history.
So when I think about thehistory, I think about the
conformity and control.
That has been really at the helmof what education has been, or I
would rather say schooling thaneducation because I think
they're two totally differentthings.
And when I say schooling, I'mtalking about this process for
conformity, this process ofcontrol versus the education,
(13:10):
which is a lifelong learningprocess and commitment to
learning and to growing and todeveloping.
So I think about us schooling, Ithink about things even like the
school bells.
That are in schools, right?
The history of that is part ofindustrialization to in embed
students in the process ofbecoming factory workers, right?
(13:31):
So a lot of.
Schooling in the United Stateshas also been about capitalism,
is about quote unquote producingstudents, making them producers
for capitalism.
And then I also think aboutcolonization as part of the
control process.
I think about indigenousboarding schools and having
students cut off their hair,which is really important in and
(13:52):
critical in indigenouscommunities as a way of making
them conform and having themchange their clothes.
I even.
Had this opportunity a couple ofyears ago to travel to Alaska.
To learn from the Association ofAlaska School Boards and a lot
of the really incredible workthat they're doing.
And part of what the studentswere fighting for was to be able
(14:12):
to wear their traditionalclothing to graduation instead
of a cap and gown to be able toeat their cultural foods like
moose, stew, seal stew at schoolrather than frozen pizza as part
of their federally funded lunchprograms.
So I see so many different waysthat.
Young people that educators arereally fighting back and I think
(14:34):
that the roots of all of thepushback are so deep and I think
what we are navigating now ispart of what.
Many historians and scholars andeducators have shown the
connections between periods ofadvancement towards social and
racial justice have always beenmet back with periods of white
supremacist backlash.
(14:55):
And we are in this period ofbacklash, we can see go all the
way back.
Enslavement, there wasresistance, and then there's
backlash reconstruction, there'sbacklash.
The gains of the Civil Rightsmovement backlash, right?
So every period where there'sbeen advancement, there has
always been backlash, and thatbacklash is a means of
(15:16):
controlling us and a means ofkeeping, Up systems of
oppression so that capitalismcan continue to thrive so that
the wealthy can continue to havepower by way of having more
resources in a capitalistsystem.
So all of this is so deep and sothat's just, those are some of
the different things that I'vebeen thinking a lot about is
(15:38):
just always grounding myself.
In the history, always groundingmyself in the patterns and also
having conversations withstudents to help illuminate and
be in discussion about thepatterns.
Because if we don't learn aboutthis history, which is what
those in power don't want us todo, when we know about this
history, then we know.
(15:59):
That we can organize against it.
And that's what they don't want.
They don't want that actionpiece.
They don't want that next step.
And then we also learn aboutmultiracial coalitions that have
always led us closer to justice,and that's part of what they
don't want us to learn either.
So there's so many pieces of it.
So many details, but just wantedto lift up.
Those are some of the thingsthat I'm thinking about even as
(16:20):
we experience the backlash andthe pushback against this really
important.
View and this really importantorientation to what education
can and should be.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (16:31):
Those connections, being able to make
those links between whitesupremacy, capitalism,
patriarchy, hetero patriarchy,colonialism, like all of those
pieces, how they sink.
Together and are so interwovenan education that is actively
gaslighting students to say,there's nothing to see here.
(16:51):
That only serves those in powerwho want those systems to last.
But I really appreciate yourpoint that as, as old and as as
deep as those roots are of thosesystems.
So too are the roots ofresistance and the communities
and the ways that people havebeen in solidarity with each
other and what we can learn fromthat too.
(17:12):
Something that I, listening toyou talk and knowing about your
experiences as an artist, andI'm listening to you talk about
being a dancer and I dance formy own joy.
That is it.
That's the only reason anybodywould ever want to see me dance
is oh, that lady looks happy.
That would be it.
But I'm wondering if you canjust share a little bit before
(17:32):
we start talking to you aboutrethinking School specifically
just.
Of the power of art asresistance and dance as
resistance.
When I think about, your work asa dancer or your time as Miss
New Jersey there are thesecommunities that are deeply
embedded with hetero patriarchy,white supremacy, all of these
things.
(17:52):
You gen, ableism, sexism, all ofthese things, but they're also.
They Art can be such anincredibly powerful space for
healing resistance, all of that.
So do you wanna just share alittle bit about how you see
dance or just the arts broadlyas a place for resistance work?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her (18:12):
Oh, yes.
There's so many ways, and I'llfirst start by saying part of
the research that.
Is a part of my heart's work hasreally been about examining why
arts education is often thefirst to be cut.
That's how I got actuallyinterested in and involved in
education in the first place,was being a high school student
(18:32):
whose school board cut the artsprograms and we started
organizing long before I knewwhat organizing.
And we were successful in ourcampaign.
They reinstated the artsprograms from the organizing,
but I started to have a lot ofquestions of why arts was the
first to be cut.
And so part of what I try toargue in my research is that one
of the reasons why is because.
(18:53):
The folks in power don't want usto create, and they don't want
us to dream.
Because when we dream and whenwe dream in community and we
dream in collaboration, thenwe're able to see that there are
other possibilities than whatcurrently exist.
And that's why I think art is soimportant because it does offer
us the capacity, thepossibility.
(19:15):
The strategy and the vision forbeing able to create the worlds
that we deserve to live in.
So I always like to start therebecause I think that's an
important piece of doing artswork is it is something that is
deeply personal.
It is embodied, but it's alsosomething that can be very
powerful and collective.
And when I think about the work.
(19:37):
With dance.
When I think about the artswork, I think about the work
that I do organizing with youngpeople In dc I co organize a
program called Black Girl Soarand SOAR is an acronym for
Scholarship Organizing, arts andResistance.
And I work with black girls inDC and helping them and
supporting them in creating Artfor Change.
(19:58):
So we've done everything fromcreating zines about social
justice topics.
They love, I'm doing some workright now with a group of young
people.
And young people, meaning bothgirls and also transgender,
non-conforming young people aswell.
We are doing a project inpartnership with the Monument
Lab in Philadelphia where theyoung people are creating
(20:20):
monuments from scratch.
They're creating monuments andreimagining what monuments can
be and look like, especially inthis moment where we've seen.
The resistance of community makeit so that some of these harmful
monuments are taken down, andnow we're seeing the resurgence
of placing those monuments rightback up.
And so there are so many waysthat we can create and create
(20:41):
for a future is what I think isan important piece of this.
Another critical part that Iwould love to lift up is just
the healing the joy, like yousaid, Katie, like just the joy
of movement, the joy of movingtogether.
Because not only am I a danceteacher, but I also teach bar.
I've been a fitness instructorfor a long time, and there's
something really important to meabout creating space for people
(21:05):
to take care of themselves.
In this oppressive society, inthis harmful society, we need to
be well in order to fight.
And so the.
Those in power, the opposition.
They do not want us to be theydo not want us to have joy
because they don't want us toresist because they know when we
show up in our full humanitythat we can resist and we can
(21:26):
resist powerfully.
So that's another piece of artthat I think is really important
is the healing aspects of it,but also how it enables us to
really take care of ourselves,especially when those in power
don't want us to be able to dothat.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11-2 (21:41):
That is so true.
I had an experience that just.
Totally fit in with that.
This weekend I was up in SaltLake for a conference and just
happened to be over the sametime that John Batiste had a
concert, At an outdooramphitheater there at the Red
Butte Gardens.
And so a friend of mine and Iwent to his concert and Andre
Day was performing with him aswell.
(22:02):
And it was so amazing becausethis is Salt Lake City, Utah.
There's.
That place was full of some oldwhite people.
There were so many old whitepeople there, but at one point,
like he stopped the song that hewas doing and said, listen.
We are here to bring joy.
We are here to get you moving,to inspire you to make this a
(22:25):
night where you feel connectedwith yourself and connected with
others.
He's this is not gonna work ifyou don't get up and dance.
And he was like, everybody geton your feet and move your body.
And he actually came like outinto the audience with his whole
band and they all came out anddanced with people out there and
it was like.
These are the experiences thatdo bring people together.
(22:47):
They All where we can connectand you think that it's just a
concert and it's just a bunch ofpeople out, having a fun time.
But Deeper than that.
Like the joy and the healingthat brings is so much more
important than the surface
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (23:01):
yes.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (23:02):
Now we're down an arts rabbit hole
bed.
This is so great.
I'm thinking of the, thestereotype of the white audience
being just so stoic
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (23:08):
Yes.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (23:09):
white church, like hushed tone, sit in
your seat, don't move.
And there, I think it's a tropefor a reason.
Like that is my experience thatit is.
Like painful sometimes to be ina space where that is the norm,
that is the expectation that youdo not emote.
You do not emit, you do not makea peep.
(23:32):
You know that it is, that theway that whiteness operates in
terms of how you experience.
Music the way that you are incommunity together and just how
truly awkward it can be to starttrying to let go of those
lessons that have been taught toyou from such a young age to,
(23:52):
and it's connected to class ingeneral and all sorts of other
things, but I just I have anexperience too when grad school.
Back in the day, this hip hopartist canine who I love just is
wonderful, happened to be comingthrough Madison in this like
tiny little venue and a friendand I were so excited, and he
came in.
It was all these like Midwesternwhite dudes, and a few young
(24:15):
women in this audience.
And it's, it.
was impossible to tell thatpeople were enjoying themselves.
And I believe that they were,but it was like the way
Midwestern, like maybe there islike a sway of a quarter inch,
which should tell you thatthey're really into it, and he
got on the mic, he's I don'tunderstand what's happening.
And he is I'm out and left.
He's I can't with you.
(24:36):
And I.
So much appreciation for thatdecision.
Yes, this has to be impo.
It's like the, and then the waythat it is so liberating and
beautiful and powerful to be ina space where people are fully
human and embracing that andjust how disorienting that can
be for people who've in, intheir religious community, their
(24:57):
family life, their neighborhoodshave been taught over and over
again.
Don't move, don't feel
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (25:03):
Yeah,
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (25:04):
that disconnect.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (25:05):
Yeah.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (25:05):
Well, And we bring that, I Bring that
back to schooling, like the waythat children just are.
You sit still, you listen, youdon't interact.
That's just so built into all ofit.
cierra-kaler-jones- (25:15):
absolutely.
That's what I was gonna say isthat even the different ways
that we police when students cango to the bathroom and when they
can't.
Like it's all, I believe inservice of getting them, like
you said Mandy earlier aboutgetting away from being
connected with our bodies.
Also the intuitive knowledgethat our bodies hold.
I'm really big on talking aboutthat because we know oftentimes
(25:40):
what we need, but this schoolingin particular as a colonizing,
as a conformity practice triesto get us away from some of that
intuitive knowledge.
Favor of fact.
And I'm not trying to disputethat there are facts, but I'm
just saying that also we have toregard like this level of
(26:00):
spirit.
I think a lot about Dr.
Cynthia Dillard's work and thespirit of our work and what does
it mean to reclaim ourrelationship with our intuitive
knowledge and our bodies andschooling so often gets us away
from that.
For example, I'm a trained yogainstructor as well.
Okay.
And there was a period of timewhere I was traveling to
(26:20):
different schools and doing yogawith young people dur oftentimes
during their gym period.
And I will never forget, therewas a school that I went to that
had lines on the floor.
And students could only walk onthose lines during certain
periods of the day.
And if you got off of the line,you got a demerit.
(26:41):
And I'm like, what is going on?
And then they bring this yogainstructor in.
I'm like, this does not feellike it's aligned at all.
And then I go into the gym roomand the gym teacher Was like,
alright, the yoga teacher'shere, sit down, close your eyes
and be quiet.
I'm like.
That's not what yoga is, right.
Getting us away from our body.
(27:02):
And this also, I think thisweaponization and the
sanitization of these importantspiritual connective practices
for us, how oftentimes they get.
They use it as a form ofpunishment when in reality it's
not that.
And, that's just one example ofone story.
I know so many teachers that arealso doing really great work in
(27:24):
bringing those practices intotheir classrooms and really
thoughtful and intentional waysand creating space for students
to be free.
So I, I never wanna leave thatpart out.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (27:34):
We, Sierra, we're gonna have to have
you back.
We have all these other seasonsmapped out.
We're focused right now onmotherhood, but we keep coming
Up against beauty and wellnessindustry and
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her (27:45):
Oh, yes,
katy_1_09-11-2025_11092 (27:46):
operate in those spaces.
That's like a whole other seasonfor, 15 years that we could do
next.
But it's making me think of theone of the recent articles you
worked on about mindfulness inschools and how that is being
co-opted in a way.
To just uphold white supremacy.
I have a former doc student thatI worked with who moved away and
(28:07):
started working in K 12 againand wrote me that she couldn't
believe this district didrestorative justice and was
really excited and then came torealize that there was a closet
in the school that had beenconverted to the restorative
justice room with a stack ofpre-printed blank apology
templates.
And so a student would be sent.
To the closet to go fill out theapology and come back.
(28:30):
Like how things can be just somutated.
Truly, I wanna have you back onfor a conversation about the way
that wellness.
Is weaponized, as i, but inschools too, mindfulness being
something that's brought in as apart of social emotional
learning, but it's really justlet me do breath work to get you
to not react to the racism thatI'm doing to you.
(28:52):
Or, it like putting it on thekid to somehow navigate a
horrible system.
But just be more quiet about itwith these techniques.
I, in the article you wrote,we'll link to in the show notes,
but anything you wanna say, Iswear we'll ask you about
Rethinking Schools, but that isjust too good to ask you about
right now.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (29:09):
Yeah, so I, it, yeah, so many things
about that.
And I'm so grateful to the, mycollaborator, collaborators, and
co-authors on that piece.
That really shepherded thatpiece forward.
And I came into that piece witha background in social emotional
learning work because at thetime that I was, writing with my
(29:29):
collaborators and thinking aboutthese topics.
I was working at an organizationcalled Communities for Just
Schools Fund and SocialEmotional Learning was really
emerging amongst the partners ofthe organization.
So their partners are a lot ofgrassroots community organizers
that are.
Fighting for education justicein different ways, shapes and
forms.
And so we did skill sharesaround it.
We did a community of practice,lots of just learning together
(29:52):
of what does this mean?
What does it look like?
And so throughout that process,I was traveling to different
schools also, and I went to aschool that had the castle, SEL
tenants.
On in every hallway, in everyclassroom posted.
And under the under the pointabout social and cultural
(30:15):
awareness, it said keep yourhands, feet, and property to
yourself, or something likethat.
And I saw it and I took apicture of it and I brought it
back to the community that wewere working with.
And we were all just what?
Out of all examples of socialand cultural awareness, you
choose something that's not.
Even related at all, and in manydifferent cultures, one of the
(30:37):
ways that we communicate witheach other is through play and
through roughhousing.
That's how we show each other,that we care about each other
and we love each other.
And in schools that's notallowed.
So you know all of the differentpieces of it, but
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (30:49):
Even just the idea of property too.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (30:51):
Yes.
Your
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (30:52):
a uni cultural universal.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (30:53):
Yes.
Yes.
The idea of property.
So we were really examining thatand then we were able to put out
a a report that we wrote aboutsocial emotional learning and
about how people wereweaponizing castle's, tenants as
a way of making it so that I, inthis other article that I wrote
on Medium, it's called When SELis Used as another form of
(31:16):
Policing, I was writing about.
How they were using SEL forpolicing to say, if you do not
act and you do not express youremotions in these very rigid
ways, which is like what youwere talking about, Katie, with
the way that it, as you weretalking about the way that white
people are often taught to notemote it.
(31:38):
It's if you don't conform tothis really whitewashed standard
of expressing your emotions,then you are punished or you are
policed when we all experienceand express emotions in
different ways.
And that was just a big.
Noticing that I had as I wasgoing to different schools and
seeing how people were reallytaking that and then running
(31:59):
with it.
Now it's interesting becauseafter putting out that article
and being in conversation with alot of folks, a lot of schools
started to change theirpractices and a lot of it too, I
also have to lift up, was reallygrounded in Dina Simmons work
and how she was one of the firstto really push forward of how.
Mindfulness and social emotionallearning.
And emotional intelligence wasreally being weaponized in
(32:22):
schools and also in workplacesas a way to make particularly
black and brown and indigenousfolks and students with
disabilities and transgendertransgender students and
non-conforming students to makethem conform by way of only
expressing their emotions in.
In very rigid ways.
(32:42):
So I've seen that.
And then you were talking aboutrestorative justice.
I've learned so much from therestorative justice partnership
and work that I've been able todo with them over the past
couple of years.
Just in how a lot of these,there's so many, oh my gosh.
ESEL too does this where theyhave the, these companies emerge
and they have this SELcurriculum or this restorative
(33:02):
justice curriculum, right?
All capitalism.
And then it's like you buy thisprepackaged curriculum.
And then tell teachers that in amatter of less than a week, they
have to then go implement thiscurriculum and it's really
expensive curriculum.
And that's not at that, at theroot of what social emotional
(33:24):
learning and restorative justiceand mindfulness is supposed to
be about.
It is completely erased when wehave this type of prepackaged
curriculum.
Because it has to be based onthe individual.
It has to be based on thecommunity.
It has to be co-created, right?
Like you have to use theseprocesses by way of being in
relationship with each other andtaking this curriculum that
(33:47):
people pay for and just ploppingit into an already unjust
system.
That doesn't do anything.
And from organizers, I'velearned that transformation
means that once something istransformed, it can never go
back to the way that it was.
So if you're just ploppingjustice or equity or restorative
justice on an unjust system thatdoesn't do anything, it's just,
(34:08):
it's Bettina Love talks aboutthis concept of these cosmetic
changes.
Like it looks good, it feelsgood on the surface.
We pat ourselves on the back,but.
It doesn't do anything.
It just makes something that issupposed to be restorative and
loving and liberatory and justit sanitizes it and makes it
something that's actually reallyharmful.
(34:29):
I could talk about that forever.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (34:31):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I can think of examples of it,like my own kids going through
elementary school and know andseeing those programs come
through and watching how they'retaught those programs and
thinking, this is not what thisis supposed to be This is not
working and it's not at all thevision that they're meant to
actually carry out,
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (34:52):
think it's so hard, knowing that the
demographics of the professionin public schools being so
overrepresented by white womenin specifically, and this is not
the experience of every whitewoman.
So I'm talking white women.
I'm not, I'm talking broadstrokes here, but if you have
never experienced.
That kind of community orrelationship, or you've never
(35:14):
ex, experienced what it feelslike to engage with people and
have it not be.
Ruled by white supremacy orableism or sexism.
It's so difficult for you tofacilitate a community that
doesn't center those things.
Even if you, that, even if youdon't want to participate in
that, it's so difficult toimagine how else it could be.
(35:35):
And to your point about the artsbeing so important, just being
able to A, have thoseexperiences so you even know
what it means when we talkabout, liberatory practices or a
community of a belovedcommunity, like what that even
is.
And then to be able to imaginesomething different when you're
talking about these systems thatare so entrenched and even the
(35:58):
ways that teachers are preparedand how that education is
standardized and what's left outof most teacher prep programs
and you know what, so it's justsuch a cycle.
And I think part of what we'vebeen reading about with the work
of these white women is just howdeliberate they've been for
generations.
I, we always go back, should wesay they should.
We say we.
(36:18):
It's, I don't, we don't wannaaffiliate ourselves with these
people.
They're like pretty just theways that they have so expertly
influenced these systems andthen the ways that they've
hidden the work, like reallyexplicitly.
Hit papered over what they didor downplayed as a strategy for
protecting that work too.
(36:39):
So there we joke about howthere's all these, like
commemorations monuments andorganizations that have these
really innocuous, soundingnames, but are the vehicles for
all sorts of really horriblethings.
And so they, there have been amillion different organizations
on the other side, organizationsthat have been working for.
(37:00):
Transformation of those systemsare alternate systems.
It's harder to find thoseorganizations, and yet I know
that they've existed.
The resistance has always beenthere, but at least for me,
rethinking Schools is one of theorganizations that comes to mind
immediately as an organizationthat has been really dedicated
(37:20):
and.
Really meaningful to so manypeople as a space to help people
imagine, to help them connect,to help them understand what's
happening so that they can startto interfere with those systems
and to build somethingdifferent.
So can you tell us a little bitof just what the roots of that
organization are, how it gotstarted, its mission?
(37:41):
Just introduce us to RethinkingSchools.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (37:44):
Yeah, so Thinking Schools is a
nation's leading grassrootspublisher for racial and social
justice and education.
Our work is really aimed atstrengthening and.
And protecting public educationthrough education activism and
through social justice teaching.
And I love the origin stories ofrethinking schools particularly,
(38:05):
especially as we are enteringinto our 40th anniversary as an
organization, which I think isreally important and special to
uplift, just as gratitude to thefounders and the volunteers who
have really shepherded thispolitical project forward and
been at the helm of not only thecreation, but.
Holding it together for so longbecause many other organizations
(38:27):
have not been able to withstandthis political backlash, not
only of this moment, but ofother moments.
And so I think just thelongevity of the organization is
really powerful to uplift.
And I love the origin storiesand thinking about the founders
of Rethinking Schools who wereteachers in Milwaukee.
And realized that the curriculumthat they were receiving, the
(38:49):
standardized testing washarmful.
The curriculum and the textbookswere whitewashed and sanitized.
And so they were finding ways toresist within their own
classrooms.
And then they got together andcreated their own tabloid that
they just started printing offof the printers in their homes
and then distributing to all ofthe teachers in Milwaukee.
And after a lot of organizingand a lot of, working in
(39:11):
coalition and community withother, cities and other
locations across the country.
The organization started to growand grow to where this tabloid
became a quarterly magazine towhere the quarterly magazine
also seeded books forpublication that also led way to
campaigns.
And so right now we have severalcampaigns, some of our newest.
(39:32):
Being teaching Palestine andsupporting educators and talking
about ongoing genocidetransgender justice in schools,
especially in light of all ofthe legislation that is seeking
to police and punish transgenderstudents.
We have teacher unions andsocial justice teaching for
black lives and so many otherways that we try to support
(39:52):
teachers that our work is, it's.
It's multifaceted in that thereis the narrative piece of this
in that at a time when so muchof the legislation is trying to
erase our histories.
For us to be able to write ourown stories and our own words
and pass them down in print isan act of resistance.
So that we have a story, we havea history that we can pass down
(40:14):
for years to come.
But then there's also the pieceof the organization that is
really about.
Bringing educators together toshare strategies, to share
glimmers of possibility in theclassroom to help.
Educators experience hope,especially when we know that
there is a teacher shortage andteachers are carrying so much.
(40:35):
Teachers are being doxed andterminated.
And suspended and punished forteaching the truth to children.
So to be able to create spaceswhere educators can come
together to talk about theseissues, but also to strategize
and to feel a sense of communityis really important.
We get so many of those storiesfrom teachers that say that,
our.
(40:56):
Our virtual sessions where theyget to come together, it helps
them feel like they're notalone.
Because some of them are reallyisolated and some of them are
the only in their schooldistrict or in their school that
are teaching in service ofsocial justice.
And so I think we have to reallybe intentional and strategic and
creating these spaces so that wehave a teacher, a trying to
(41:18):
think of the word, like agroundswell of teachers who are
really embedded in teaching forsocial justice, but also so that
they have to support, to dobecause I know it's not easy
period, but it's also especiallynot easy during a time period of
political backlash.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (41:36):
Yeah, I was looking over the website
and there are just, there's somany resources on there that I
think even from a non-educator.
Perspective.
I'm like, oh, I need to readthis and I need to like, I need
to know this myself.
And I think about, I come from adifferent background than
education, and so my question isalways how does more of like
(41:58):
just your regular everyday mom.
Go about using this material orasking for this material to be
brought in schools or Findingteachers who are interested in
teaching this material.
And do you have any thoughts onthat or any resources that just
regular community members canuse to support rethinking
schools and how to get thatinformation to our public
(42:22):
schools that our own children goto?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her- (42:24):
Oh yes, definitely.
I think first and foremost thata lot of our materials, even
though geared toward teacherswe've had parents who have
written for the magazine aswell, so there is some parent
stories in the pages of themagazine to also lift up their
experiences.
And I think that while written.
For the teacher lens.
(42:44):
A, just as you're saying Mandy,that there are ways that parents
and community members andorganizers can really use the
materials to advocate and toorganize.
And I think too, finding some ofthose educators in your
community who are really deeplyembedded in social justice and
interest, introducing them torethinking schools.
We always encourage people toalso show up at school board
(43:05):
meetings because we know that.
Some folks that show up to theschool board meetings that are
very well organized and veryvocal.
And so we have to be just asvocal or even running for school
board yourself is what weencourage people to do so that
we have we're building thatpolitical power within the lens
of local organizing.
And I also will lift up at ZenEducation Project, which is
(43:28):
co-ordinated by RethinkingSchools and Teaching for Change.
Every year we have a Teach TruthDay of Action, and that Teach
Truth Day of Action reallystarted as a way to push back
against the anti critical racetheory bans.
And it is a day when teacherspublicly pledged to teach truth
regardless of the law, but alsoparents and community members.
(43:51):
Publicly pledged to supportteachers regardless of the law.
Because one of the ways that weare inviting and encouraging and
asking parents and communitymembers is to show up is that if
you see or hear of an educatorthat is being doxed or
terminated, to be able to showup for them and offer support by
ways of, lifting up the waysthat they may have had an impact
(44:12):
on.
On your student, on your childor on the community or something
that they've done to say,actually, no, I support them and
I support what they're doing.
And this is what we need more ofin our schools because they need
that as part of the file.
They need those positivestories.
And I'll also lift up one of thepartners for Zen Education
Project and the Teach Truth Dayof Action is Red Wine and Blue.
(44:33):
If y'all have been involved orintroduced to them
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (44:36):
No.
I'm so glad you mentioned thatbecause I came across them in
the last election cycle andthought, oh, we should reach out
to have a conversation withthem.
So that's, thank you for.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (44:45):
Yeah.
They've been
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (44:47):
so what, how have they partnered
and how did that relationshipget established?
What are the kinds of actionsthat they're taking?
This is a group of, I don't knowif they're exclusively white
women, but I think of it as likewhite moms who are trying to use
their, like leverage whatevercapital they have for
progressive political lines.
And maybe that's a, like broadstrokes what they do, but yeah
(45:09):
how are they partnering?
What are the actions they'retaking?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (45:11):
Yeah, so for the Teach Truth Day of
Action, one of the ways thatthey've been really supportive,
of course, is lifting it upwithin their own organizing
strategies and also within theschools that many of their
children go to.
And, one of the reasons why Ilift them up is because of y
y'all's focus on talking withand thinking about moms.
And they've also done some.
(45:33):
I'm trying to think of the nameof it, but they've basically
done, they've done differentworkshops and strategy sessions
for their members in teachingthem about why education justice
is important.
So I think that's something tolift up as well.
And teaching them aboutnarrative strategies, teaching
them about organizing tacticsand techniques because they're
really trying to fight againstthe Moms for Liberty and the
(45:53):
other really conservative momgroups by saying, actually no,
there are moms that are fightingfor just.
And this is what it can looklike.
And here's, they're providing alot of really tangible hands-on
tools and strategies to be ableto do that.
So I would definitely lift themup, especially in the work that
you all are doing.
They've been a really goodpartner for the Teach Truth Day
of Action
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (46:16):
any specific stories stand out to,
you're a storyteller.
Storytelling is important toyou, and I'm wondering at what,
in your time with RethinkingSchools, what are one or two
stories that stand out as.
Ways that parents, families, andeducators have worked together
to push back on something, tocreate something new.
(46:36):
That's amazing.
What stories of maybe hope orpossibility when people are
aware and are taking actiontogether.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (46:45):
Yeah.
One thing you know I'll lift upis the study groups that we
have.
There are groups of educators,of parents, of community
organizers who get copies of abook, say for example, teaching
for Black Lives.
Right now.
We've actually just launched ourteaching Palestine study groups
and we have had people fromPuerto Rico.
We've had groups, in Nebraskagroups really all over the
(47:10):
country and all over the worldwho are coming together to
engage in deep political studybecause we think that's an
important part of this educationwork is to ensure that people
are really equipped with theknowledge and the information to
understand some of these issues,to understand the historical
context of the issues, and thenalso what teachers and.
(47:30):
Parents and organizers aredoing.
And so some of these studygroups have been able to change
policies in their school.
I think about the teaching forBlack Lives Study groups, who
is, there's over 300 studygroups across the country now.
For that book in particular.
And as part of that work, yeah,there's just so many stories of
groups that have changed racistdress code policies because of
(47:52):
something that they, one of thearticles that they read in the
Teaching for Black Lives book.
There have been groups I thinkabout the new teacher book as
well for.
Groups that have bought copiesof the new teacher book and then
shared it with all of their newteachers every year as a way of
providing hope and ininspiration and being like,
you're not in this alone.
(48:13):
We can do this together to helpreally keep up the morale and
the spirit.
So there, there's just so manyways in so many stories.
And then one.
One of the stories too that'salso really close to my heart is
just thinking about the teachersthat we've been able to work
with, who have been terminatedand that have been doxed.
We did a webinar actually withseveral of those teachers and
(48:34):
some of those teacher storiesare featured in Rethinking
Schools Magazine and one of oureditors and one of my comrades
and good friends, JesseHagopian, in his new book, teach
Truth also lifted up thosestories.
And I just think about thoseteachers who.
We're creating spaces forstudents to be free, to be
liberated in their classroomsand to engage in critical
(48:56):
dialogue and conversation.
And there's so many stories ofthose teachers who.
Would also in thinking aboutcommunities and parents, there
were so many communities andparents that rallied behind
them, that showed up at schoolboard meetings, that wrote notes
for their files that talkedabout how great of an educator
that they were as a means ofshowing that support.
(49:16):
So I also like to lift up thosestories as well as I think
there's change in that too, iseven changing the trajectory of
a teacher's experience becauseof the power of community around
them.
And.
And I think that's reallyimportant too, is like we have
to really rally around teachersright now.
We are experiencing what isanother McCarthyism era.
(49:38):
Like a lot of these teachers arebeing put on trial.
A lot of these teachers are, arebeing talked about on the House
of Representatives floor inCongress because of the justice
work that they're doing.
So we have to be equally as.
As vocal as our opposition, andwe have to lift up these stories
of resistance and these storiesof hope and of possibility for
(50:00):
what education can and shouldbe.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11- (50:04):
Yeah, I appreciate all of those
thoughts.
That makes me also think of aparallel in healthcare of.
Where people I know that I workwith, and I've had these
thoughts myself, a lot of is iteven worth it to stay in this
Can I really fix it in any sortof meaningful way?
Or is it too much on my,emotional state, on my spiritual
(50:30):
state, on, all of those thingsto just fight against that
continued oppression andpushback and even danger.
Really People who stand up tothese oppressive systems are in.
Um, and I'm so grateful forpeople who are willing to do
that in Spheres.
But I just think of how hard itis, and I think there's so much
(50:52):
beauty in rethinking the waythat things could be.
And I always credit Katie forbeing the one of us who is like
the hope and the vision and thejoy.
And I'm always like the DebbieDowner over here just but I love
having resources and storiesthat inspire us of, people who
are doing things and who arepushing ahead and still trying
(51:15):
to make that difference becauseit certainly isn't gonna happen
without it.
Yeah.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-he (51:19):
Yes.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (51:20):
I think that's great.
I'm gonna ask one last questionthat I'm looking at the time.
It feels like a Pandora's boxquestion to throw out there at
the last second, but I think toMandy's point.
Thinking of transforming systemsversus, and it doesn't have to
be, versus transforming systemsas one place to put our
energies.
Another place to put ourenergies is creating something
(51:43):
new.
Creating your own community,your own way of doing things.
I think for some people.
Sometimes the charter system oreven voucher system seems like
perhaps a, way to enter thosespaces.
I have qualms about that, justknowing the history of those
tools and the politics of thosetools.
But it, I'm curious how Youmakesense of, that.
(52:08):
Work from within system,transformational approach, and
create our own community andworld where kids can thrive and
be who they are.
Those aren't mutually exclusive,but how do you apportion your
energies or how do you thinkabout that?
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (52:26):
Yeah.
So one of the things that I havebeen trying to adopt is this
mindset of both, and that we canhave both.
And think that we have to investin public schools because it
touches so many children.
And when we take away thoseresources for charter schools
and other schools, it takes awayresources from being able to
(52:49):
create really incrediblelearning spaces for all
students.
And.
I also think as we lookhistorically, there are so many
beautiful models of liberatoryeducation, like freedom schools.
I think about the BlackPanthers.
I think about even like theHighlander Folk Center and the
organizing that we can learnoutside of schools.
(53:10):
I think we have to have both.
We have to have a really strong,robust critical.
Education, public educationsystem and all of the promises
of what it can and should be.
And then we also need some otherspaces too that are really
subversive learning spaces.
I think about for Zen EducationProject, we also do this Teach
(53:30):
the Black Freedom StruggleCourse series where we have
educators and conversation witha historian.
One of the stories thatoftentimes stays with me is that
of Jarvis Gibbon's FugitivePedagogy.
I really love the framing aroundthat, where he talks about how
black educators have alwaysengaged in this practice of
fugitive education that isfugitive, that is illegal.
(53:53):
And he says this to make itreally tangible.
He talks about this story aboutTessie McGee a young teacher, a
young black woman teacher in theSouth.
Who would have Carter gWoodson's textbook, like on her
lap and then the corporatetextbook on the desk.
And then when the administratorwould come in, like all the
students knew the drill of likehow to position the book so that
(54:13):
the administrator would see thatthey were reading this corporate
textbook.
But reality, they were learningCarter g Woodson.
And so much of that is alreadyhappening in classrooms.
We need that fugitive pedagogyin those spaces.
And then we also need thefreedom schools.
We need the community basededucation.
We need the political educationand deep political study and
community.
And I think too, because so manyschools have operated as
(54:36):
fortress schools and keepingfamilies and communities out
there is a need to bring morecommunity, bring more family
into school, and then viceversa, right?
All of the learning that we cando together, the
intergenerational strategy andlearning that can happen in
community, that is equally asimportant as what we learn in
school.
So I'm gonna lean into the bothend because I think all of it is
(54:58):
possible, and I think all of itwill lead us closer to what
could possibly be liberation forus all.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (55:05):
Ah, to Tessie, I feel like we just
should toast,
cierra-kaler-jones--she-her- (55:08):
to Tessie.
Yes.
I like, think about Tessie'sstory all the time of like how
can I, and how can rethinkingschools, how can we as a
community support educators whoare doing that kind of like
tessie fugitive pedagogy workand support inside and outside
of school.
And I, I think.
There's so many possibilitiesthere that we have to continue
(55:30):
to lean into and explore, andalso be open to experimentation
of what the model can look like.
katy_1_09-11-2025_110921 (55:37):
Thank you so much for talking today,
but even more importantly, justthank you for all the work that
you have done, all the work thatRethinking Schools is doing.
We'll link to everything in theshow notes and I hope anyone
listening who isn't alreadyconnected to Rethinking Schools
finds a way to.
Support them.
Subscribe to the magazine, buy abook, gift a book to someone,
donate to the organization.
It's incredible work.
(55:58):
So thank you so much and we willcircle back when we inevitably
will wanna talk to you againabout so many other things.
So thank you for your timetoday.
cierra-kaler-jones--she-h (56:07):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
mandy---she-her-_1_09-11-2 (56:10):
you.
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