August 13, 2024 • 51 mins
In this compelling episode of "Our Life Beyond," co-hosts Connie King and Scott Dibben welcome Jesse, who bravely shares her journey of self-discovery. Jesse reflects on her marriage and the profound realization that led her to embrace her true identity as a lesbian.
Facing the challenges of ending her marriage and stepping into her authentic self, Jesse's story is one of courage, resilience, and the pursuit of genuine happiness. Her experience serves as an inspiring example of the strength required to live authentically.
Connie, Scott, and Jesse discuss key themes such as identity, love, and the importance of living true to oneself. They explore the impact of societal expectations, the coming-out process, and the vital role of support systems during transformative times.
This episode offers Jesse’s touching narrative alongside practical insights for those grappling with their identity or experiencing significant life changes. Whether you’re on your own journey of self-discovery, supporting a loved one, or simply interested in stories of personal growth, this episode will resonate deeply.
Join us for an empowering conversation that celebrates the beauty of living authentically and the freedom that comes with embracing who you truly are. "Our Life Beyond" invites you to listen, reflect, and be inspired by Jesse’s courageous story.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Well, hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Our Life Beyond the podcast where we explore how
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to navigate and hopefully thrive through some of life's biggest transitions. I'm your
co-host Scott Dibben and I've teamed up with my great friend and mentor Connie King to
share some stories, strategies, and insights that helped us adapt to the ever-changing
seasons of our life. Whether your life transition is divorce, death of a loved one, switching
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careers, moving to a new city, or just trying to figure out what the hell is next, where
with you every step of the way. But always remember, we're not therapists, just fellow
travelers with a knack for finding humor in the chaos, and maybe some untraditional method
of overcoming what life dishes out to us. Hopefully you'll have fun embarking on this
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journey. So now, let's get started.
I want to give a special thank you to Habit Coffee for sponsoring us. So if you're local
to Springfield, you're probably aware of the miserable construction at Highway 60 and
Farm Road 125 heading into Rogersville. Yeah, right in the midst of all that progress is
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the Habit Coffee Company, a fantastic local, vagina-owned business. They're more than
just a coffee shop. They serve delicious scratch-made breakfast and lunch options. They have a state
and county-inspected kitchen, and they love catering events. While it might take a bit
of extra effort to reach them right now, they're excited about the upcoming expansion when the
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highway reopens this fall. Support the Habit Coffee Company and enjoy their incredible
offerings today. Thank you so much, Habit Coffee.
Hey, Skies. Well, hello, Connie. How are you?
I'm good. How are you? I'm doing well. What are we doing today, Connie?
I'm so excited today. So today, we have a guest. It's our first guest of any of our
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podcasts, and it's a doozy. Like, it is... Oh, I don't even know how to say it, so I'm
very excited. I know you were excited, so it must be
good. It is good. So today, what we're going to
do is we're going to be talking to one of my dearest, dearest friends. I have known
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her since... I think it was like 2006. We met around in that 2006, 2008, and we home
schooled together. We met in the nursery holding babies.
Oh, wow. Yeah. We became very close. And over the
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years, we have just... I guess we've fallen into each other in these moments of... Like,
we've been so vulnerable with each other. And when life got hard or when there was something
we needed to talk about that was taboo maybe to the home school community or anything like
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that, she and I could just rely on each other.
So this is just one of your people? One of my people, yeah.
Awesome. And over the years, she has gone through
an amazing journey, like a butter... I don't know how to describe it, because she has come
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out as this beautiful, strong, brave, courageous... I don't even know the words to use, woman,
but I just really look up to her and I look up to her story. And we will talk to her.
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She'll lead you through it. But basically, her story is she was married for 28 years.
She has six children who, by the way, she's an amazing mother. I used to sit there and
think, oh, I wish I raised my kids like she did, because they're all so cute. They're
(04:08):
all kind, kind humans. And she had six kids, homeschooled. She was pretty ingrained in religion.
And I'll let her talk about that a little more. But there was a point in her life where
she started, I think, deconstructing religion. She started deconstructing her marriage. And
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she has now come out. She's now a lesbian and she has a partner who is... I mean, you
should see their relationship. It's really, really beautiful. They're so respectful and
so kind to each other. And it has just been an amazing story. And I think what she has
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to say will help people. I think it will enlighten people. And I think it will be just a really,
really good lesson for people. So with that, I want to introduce one of my people, who
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is Jessie. Hey, Jessie.
Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for being on here, Connie.
Say that again.
I just adore you. You're just one of my most favorite people. And I'm so grateful for you
and our friendship and the space that we've been able to create for each other over these
last many years.
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Yeah. What year was it that we met? Do you remember?
It was 2007 because Maya was only a couple months old, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I still love that girl. Which is how that happened that she's 17 years ago now. Gosh.
(05:57):
Yeah. That's not cool.
It's cool.
I know.
So Connie, Connie talks through that you've went through several transitions.
Yeah.
Let's talk about that.
Do you want to at least start with like how your life started and went through to where
it is today and kind of some of the transitions you went through?
Yeah.
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Doing overview.
Cool.
Yeah.
So I grew up in a very small town in Northwest Kansas in a religious household. In a tiny
town in a religious household in the mid-80s, early 90s. So the time was just much different.
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And I think there's something in our culture that when you grew up in that time period
and in that space, there was a set of expectations that you needed to follow. And you checked
off all the boxes because what would people think? What would God think? What would family
think? What would society think? And so you just kind of follow the script happily. I
(07:12):
followed that script very happily. I think you're also maybe not completely consciously
aware that you're following a script.
I was married when I was 21. We went on to have six babies and we were married for almost
27 years. We were together for, yeah, almost 28. And in that time period, I think I, it
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was important to me to raise my children in a home. And I felt like the only way that
I could do that well was following this religious path. If I didn't have God, then there was
no way anything that was going to work out. So we did. And we went to church. He grew
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up in a much different religion than I did. They were Sabbath keepers. It was just a different
experience. At some point in time, I decided to follow that path with him. And so we became
Sabbath keepers. I like to say that we went a little bit culty for a period of time. So
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we were a little bit culty. And then about the time that I met Connie, we started homeschooling,
which is its own version of culty, culty environment and this, a new series of expectations. And
you know, I, you just follow the path and it works very well until it doesn't. I think
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for me, there were a series of events that happened that started shaking everything for me. I took
an Old Testament course at OTC to finish my degree. And there were so many things about
religion that I started questioning, like, wait a second, none of this makes sense anymore. I'm
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very, very curious. And I ask a lot of questions. So when I didn't get answers that I liked, or
that made sense, it just made me go, huh, it feels like there isn't a correct. So I did, I
started deconstructing my religion. Probably around 2011 or 2012. Another one of my dear
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friends also had seven children also was in the little bit culty homeschool world was doing the
same thing at the same time. And we, we came at that from very different directions, but at the
same time, so that was supportive. My ex-husband also was going through a deconstruction. And I was
always so grateful that we experienced that at the same time. So it didn't create a lot of conflict.
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We both were like, Hey, none of this works for us anymore. And we were able to leave that space.
Shortly thereafter, my mother-in-law passed away. And she was my rock. I mean, we lived really
close to her. She was incredibly supportive, incredibly kind, just one of those people who
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would, would absolutely be a saint. And that altered my existence and the way I looked at
work, the world in ways that I was not prepared for grief. Connie, I know you know this is
just something that until you've experienced it and clawed your way out of it or through it or
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however, yeah, it just alters everything. And so I think I started questioning a lot of things then
and it shook my foundation in a way that I wasn't prepared for. It altered the way I related to my
my spouse at the time, my kids, myself. I mean, I think it opened me up to this new experience
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of how I wanted to live my life. That was in 2015. So yeah, so over the last nine years,
there's something about grief turning 40 that for me made me question how I wanted to live
the rest of my life and what I was okay with and what I wanted to experience and what I wasn't
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anymore. And so I've always known there was this part of me that was attracted to women and so
incredibly curious. And I also from a very young age knew that that was not, that was just all in
the not box, like just nope. I did ironically, the first person I came out to was my husband at the
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time when we were 22 probably like, hey, I think that I've always been attracted to women. But it
felt like this separate experience or it was something that was just over my shoulder
and not entirely embodied, if that makes sense. And so yeah, I think over the last nine years,
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for whatever reason, that has definitely been something that became less possible to ignore.
And I'm still walking around in a marriage and six kids and there's still a lot of
expectations that I felt like I needed to uphold. And there's fear, gosh, the fear, right? Like,
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I've been married for almost 27 years. I have six kids. What are people going to think? What am I
going to be letting go of? What am I going to be stepping into this unknown space? I like to say
that I feel like the last three years in particularly have been a lot of weeping and gnashing of
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teeth and the wearing of sat cloth and ashes. Like, I never knew what that felt like and that's the
closest thing I can come to it now. Just really wrestling with myself against myself, trying to
hold onto something that didn't need to be held onto anymore and really afraid of what my life
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would look like if I let it go. So can we kind of stop there for a minute? Because like at this
point, I have... I'm sitting here in my private... Yeah, I've got so many questions. Yeah, okay,
go ahead. Sorry. The questions are going to start. Do you mind if we start asking? Because this is
absolutely so intriguing. First of all, so I remember when your mother-in-law passed and it
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was a huge thing and grief does that. I think that's a huge thing for people is when you experience
grief, it's okay to say, wait, what the hell just happened? That's not how life was supposed to be.
And you do start questioning everything and you start going, that doesn't make sense. That doesn't
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make sense. That doesn't make sense. So where yours may have even started before then, do you feel like
that was the big, big thing that made you go, uh-uh, I gotta find something different in life?
Like, and what I mean by that is like, it knocked your trajectory off. Do you feel like that was
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what happened when she passed? Yes, absolutely. Just my entire world shifted and altered and
something about trying to put it back together. Yeah, it just tilted everything. Right. You
couldn't go on the way it was because it didn't make sense. Exactly. I get that completely. Yeah.
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So, yeah, I've got a couple questions, but we'll just go back and forth, Connie.
Okay. So you're from a small Midwest town, is that true?
Yes. Okay. So do you believe that even through school that you had some of these thoughts and
maybe because of where you were and the principles that you followed kept you from even looking at
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that side as far as lesbian, you know, being gay attracted to women, any of that? Or do you feel
like that it just took you a while to figure out who you are? Oh, I think I knew on some level,
I'm trying to feel like an analogy like looking through glasses darkly, right? Like there's a
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knowing, but there's all these cultural filters that you're experiencing life through at the time
that makes it harder to see or recognize or own and create safety for yourself, right? You're a
young kid. There was some part of me that knew, let me say, there's some part of me that felt
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because I didn't know, I acted on what I felt that if I would have explored that or been curious,
I would have maybe had a decision to make about my family's support or lack thereof at that point
in time and fear is a powerful motivator. Oh, yes, it is. I never gave my family a chance
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to love me through that. In the 80s, which of course in the 80s, most of the people didn't
come out if they were. Did you have anybody that you knew in your circle or even outside of your
circle that you thought was possible? No. No? Interesting. Well, I had one, there was one
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kid in my high school that never came out. Nobody did that in my hometown. I think there was an
understanding from most of his classmates, but there was never a public coming out.
And also, I'm not entirely sure that I understood that homosexuality encompassed men and women.
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I think the context that I had growing up was gay men. And I don't know that I fully
comprehended or understood, and I certainly didn't have any examples of what gay women
looked like or what that was or what the word for it would have been, lesbian even.
It wasn't until I graduated high school and I moved to Lawrence, Kansas,
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that this other world opened up for me. And I laugh now because I moved to town and immediately
all of my best friends were gay men and we went to the Lilith Fair and I had such great
relationships with these lesbian women. And there was so much curiosity and there was a part of
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me that just knew or felt very much like that wasn't a path that I could explore. But that was my
circle. I spent my 21st birthday at the gay bars in Westport with all of my gay friends.
So was that before you got married then? Yes, that was before. So yeah, so that would have been
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the summer before I met my husband at the time. And we met, got engaged and got married in less
than nine months. Oh wow. Yeah. And so then you are on this new, and I always knew that I wanted
to be a mother and have a family. And I think that that was probably not something that I was
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consciously aware of, but definitely there was an ordered path for how to have a family at that
point in time. Yes, I understand that as a woman. I understand that. Yeah. You're just,
you're just supposed to, you're supposed to get married, have kids. In my case, be a stay-at-home
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mom, then we homeschooled. So I think it's that same thing for a lot of women. I think my question,
well, I'll let you continue to your story. And here's why, because I think I know your story
pretty well from three years ago back. But your story from three years forward, which is interesting,
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I think is what I have more questions about. So let's, let's continue from where you were at
when you said, you know, well, now that we've asked questions, I've kind of forgotten where we were at.
But from your, let's talk about from when you knew you were going to come out, when you were like,
okay, what was that transition? What happened there that was the definitive, yes, I'm a lesbian,
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I need everybody to know it because that's how I'm going to live authentically. Let's start there.
So I think there's a couple pieces of information before I can come to that point.
Okay. So my marriage after my mother-in-law passed away, things all shifted, including
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what I felt like the way that my husband at the time and I relate it, right? It changed the dynamics
of our relationship from my perspective. So there's that happening. And then I think the last three
years in that space have been incredibly difficult and knowing that we're not connecting and
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showing up for each other in the way that is the best for either of us in the way that we need to.
And also, I think we both had a lot of fear about what it would look like if we just said,
hey, I don't think this is working anymore. And so through that series of unfortunate events of that,
also at the same time parallel to that experience is this internal knowing that's becoming so much
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more solid and real. And funnily enough, I read a book called Untamed by Glennon Doyle,
I don't know, probably three or four years ago. And in it, it talks about how she's asking herself
about her interest and attraction to women internally. And she was like, oh, gosh,
if only I had another life, maybe I could experience that. And in the book, she's like,
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as if we have more than one life. And there was something about that quote when I read that book
that scared me to death, because it felt like I knew that I was going to have to make a decision.
And then there's just fear, like what are my kids going to think? What if I wreck our entire
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family? What if all these different things? So that's happening. Then there's all these
things that are happening in my relationship with my ex husband that sort of make all those decisions
easier. It became, I just became more comfortable with saying that that is not a space that is
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healthy for me any longer or for him, and having the courage to walk away from that many years.
So that's all happening kind of on the left. And then there's all this internal internal
recognition of what's happening in my attraction or curiosity about women. And through this process,
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it's not been a conversation that my ex and I hadn't had that it's always, he's always known.
And he actually was always very open to say, hey, if that's ever something you want to experience,
you know, you'll have my support, which I so appreciate. And I wasn't going to do anything
that would wreck my family. And I kind of always said, if owning my true self was going to be
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something that happened in this life, then the universe would just have to say, here she is,
like, plunk somebody down in the middle. I'm very risk averse. I don't go out bar hopping.
I'm not a flirt. I'm not getting on apps. I'm not going on blind dates. Like, I was not going to seek
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anything out. That's just not how I operate. And so, yeah, I, for all I know, I could have said,
I'm coming out and then I could have just become a cat lady lesbian by myself from now until I die.
But the universe also listens to us. And so I was always like, well, if, if that's ever
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supposed to be a thing, then somebody will show up. And she did in the most crazy way. And it was so
so profound and instantaneous that I couldn't not see what that was. And so then after that,
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it was easy. Like, I have no questions. I have no fear. We actually were just talking the other
day. I think a lot of people ask like, so what would you think if I told you I was gay, trying to,
you know, test the waters a little bit? And I didn't. I just told everybody that I met someone,
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and this is who I am, and this is how I'm operating now, and how they felt or thought about it would
be something that they would have to work out for themselves. But life is too short to not be who you
are completely. And I just don't want to have a part of that existence anymore. So, oh, that is so
cool. So in my mind, the whole time you've been talking, I know everybody has probably seen that
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picture of a woman who's standing naked. And there is just all you see isn't like a, I don't even know
what you call it a help me out here, like chipping away at the outer and you start seeing a different
woman break through. Yes. Have you seen that picture, Scott? Have you seen that picture?
I know exactly what you're talking about. So that is like, I'm sitting there thinking about that,
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just going, oh, wow, that's again, that butterfly coming out of, you know, the cocoon.
But so once you decided, once it was easy, then you told, let's, who was the first person you
told besides, I mean, let's skip the husband from 20 years ago or 27 years ago, who was the first
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person you told? So I think there was a couple people that I felt very, very safe with and
tested the waters, three, actually, you being one of them, there were two other friends of mine
that I'm like, hey, I think this is a thing that I'm not sure I can deny any longer. Over the last,
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probably three years, after everything sort of came to a head and decisions needed to be made,
then I went to my kids. So because that was going to tear me up too, right? Like, I adore my children
and I've worked very hard to create a life for them. The best I knew how, right? It wasn't always
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perfect for sure, but I love them dearly. And now I'm going to get emotional. So having my kids
accept me in this life was the most important. I could, I can handle other people saying no.
Having them decide that they wouldn't want to be in my life would have been hard,
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hard, hard. And I knew that I was going to have to be okay with that too. So I went to my older
children first and I was like, hey, there's all this stuff happening over here on the left
in our family, as you know it, that's going to require some change. Anyway, that was going to
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happen anyway. And then also there's this part of me that you need to know about. And I mean,
I have the best freaking kids. So I'm, tell my 17 year old and she's like, is this my mom coming
out to me? And I go, yeah, I guess it is. And she's like, well, it's about time. And she references
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one of your kids was the one that was, this was so funny because this is what I love about the
story with your kids. You were telling them not only were they just like, okay, well, whatever,
they were authentically themselves and were sarcastic like every freaking teenager could be.
Was it Adam that was like something about you driving a Subaru? Can you tell that story?
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What was that? Cause I laughed at that. Yes. So, I mean, obviously this has been a huge transition
for everyone and it's also affected my children deeply. And so I'm telling my son, Adam, and
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I said, so there's this other thing you need to know about me. And I feel like it's really
important that I am true to myself and whatever. And he's like, well, like, duh, mom, you bought a
white Subaru outback. Like that's the poster car for every lesbian in the country. And he's like,
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and you have a full sleeve tattoo. And yeah, like, duh. And I appreciated that so much. I was like,
well, you could have clued me in. Like my kids are all like, duh, mom. And I'm thinking it never
occurred to you to be like, hey, mom, are you really living your authentic self? But that's okay.
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That's a journey you have to go on for yourself regardless of what other people say. But I was
told that. So much relief. So Jesse, what was the age range of your kids at that time?
I guess, let me think. At the time, my oldest daughter would have been 23.
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She and her partner would have been expecting their first baby, my first grandbaby. And then
the youngest was nine and a half. Okay. So they were of age of understanding?
Yeah. Yeah. Did they all? So did you sit down? You didn't sit them down as a group? Did you
individually talk to them? Most of it was individual. Yeah, really, every conversation,
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I think was individual. Yeah. And I was so grateful for the acceptance. And
obviously there's pain involved, right? Like their life is changing forever
because of certain aspects of this. But overwhelmingly, yeah, just so much acceptance
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and love and just struggling. Like, okay, that's what we're doing now. Cool.
What's neat about your story? It's not that much different than mine. Mine was through a divorce.
But I know there was a certain time that I felt like when I knew something needed to happen,
you almost felt selfish. Am I doing this? I'm going to tear up the family. Am I being selfish
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by doing this? But what I found out, and I hope you did too, is at the end when it's all over,
when you can be your true self, when you can be the person you're supposed to be,
you actually have better relationships. You're easier to be with even for your kids.
Oh, absolutely. I think that was one of the things over the last, especially the last year and a half,
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you know, there was all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth and sad cloth and ashes and just
really struggling on all aspects everywhere. And a sort of like white knuckling your existence,
like if I just hold on and all this will be like, we can just keep our shit together. It'll all be
fine. And then when it all crashes, there is this immense sense of relief. And all of a sudden,
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I have so much more energy and bandwidth for my kids and for their experience and for other
friendships and aspects of my life. There's just this great expanse that's available now
that I had been very, very small and contained for a long time. So it was hard to tap into that.
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Well, and I can tell you from experience, I'll say the last three years, you have been in what I
will call a chaotic realm. You know, there was always, it was always things coming at you. It was
like just things were constantly coming at you. And where I know you are such a positive person,
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you always kept this brave face, but I could, like you and I would talk and I would hear things
and I'd be like, oh, this is not easy for her. This is not good for her. Oh, she's trying to fix
this. She's trying to figure this out. She's trying to do all these things. And I will tell you,
it was kind of funny the day you got your house, the, you know, when you moved out, because that's a
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story in and of itself. There was some chaos within like the divorce and her moving from a house
and that, but when she finally said, you know what, screw it, I've got to do what is good for me.
And my, you know, the kids and not chaos. And she kind of let go of everything else. It was almost
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like I felt a breath from you. And I think that's the thing is that you keep getting to take these
breaths as you become authentic. And I get to see, like, I get to see my old friend again,
you know, and that's, that's the more beautiful part for me is that I, where, yeah, you were,
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you were married, you were still quest, like, I won't say you weren't authentic because I think
for the time that we met, we were both authentic. And as we've grown and changed, you know, we've
found something different. But that's the one that that's the thing that I feel like has happened
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is that I'm starting to see my calm, brilliant, just not in the chaos friend. And it's, it's been,
it's been really good. You know, such a good, good thing. It really is. And I think fear is a funny
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thing, you know, like letting go, letting go of so many things. I just feel like this last couple
years, that's all I've done is let go, let go, let go, let go, let go and let go letting go of
the address. And that like kind of final act of, I don't know, stepping into my own thing
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was really hard. And I was actually just telling my dad this morning, I'm like, gosh, if, if I would
have known how peaceful I would feel again, I would have not fought so hard internally for this
place. Yeah, letting go and not letting fear dictate feels so important. So what was the hardest
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part of all this? Was it telling friends? Was it telling family? Did you end up losing friends or
any family that didn't want to connect with you afterwards? No, I've been, you know, Scott, that's
the thing is really once I quit fighting with myself and just said, I can't anymore. Like there's
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just this surrender, not only to what I knew I needed to let go of, but also what I wanted to
step into. It's been so easy. I am so incredibly grateful for my friends, my family. I've not
heard really any negativity, you know, for the people that are in my life, they're so incredibly
(36:31):
supportive, you know, talking to Connie, she was like, Oh, cool. I can't wait to meet her, you know,
like, it's just been my family has been incredibly supportive. It's very much like, we just want
to see you happy. Also, all family who live in a very tiny town in conservative Northwest Kansas.
(36:52):
So, and I even told some of them, I'm like, I know that this information might come as a shock
to you. And I might, I know that you might feel a kind of way about it. That's cool. You absolutely
can. And it was funny. So I was having this conversation with my aunt and she's like, Oh,
my gosh, it's just so good to see you happy. And we were kind of joking around. I was joking around
(37:13):
with my cousin. And then my cousin looked at my aunt and she's like, that's the Jess I remember.
And my aunt kind of teared up and she's like, Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you're back. And I broke down
because I thought I had kept it together. And I was smiling and nodding. And I had shrunk myself
(37:38):
to nothingness almost. And so, yeah, it just feels good to find joy. I knew so clearly that I didn't
know what that felt like three years ago. But I didn't know how to get it back.
Yeah. And you know, sometimes,
sometimes I think it's for me at least, and maybe the same for you,
(38:02):
you replay the story in your head of what it's going to look like when you come out. And it's
going to be all this chaos that's going to be people pissed off. It's going to be people not
supporting. And you're going to have to find this different group of friends. And you're going to
have, you know, my life's going to totally change. And who knows what's going to happen.
And I think a lot of people, that's that story they play in their head. But it's not realistic.
I think we always go to the worst case scenario.
(38:25):
Well, I do have a question because we live in the Bible Belt. And I'm really surprised to hear
that you've not had some pushback and maybe not so much from your friends and family, but
living here in the buckle of the Bible Belt, have you experienced any negativity?
If you have, how did you handle it? Or was it just a thing where it's like,
(38:48):
yeah, that person's an idiot. And then you go on, tell me a little bit about if you've had
any of those experiences. So I think I have not. I haven't had any experiences directly or indirectly
that I said, that didn't feel very good. A couple of things to that. One, I think I might be oblivious
(39:11):
to a lot of it because I haven't always been gay. And so I don't, I don't know what that would look
like. My partner has, you know, she's been out since she had graduated from high school. So
she has experienced a lot of bigotry and hatred. So she's on a very high alert.
(39:33):
She comes from a place of being on high alert, which I appreciate because I am probably oblivious
to the looks and things. It just, it won't register. Also, I'm, unless she and I are together,
I'm very femme presenting. So it's not like anybody would go, oh, well, obviously she's
a lesbian. So individually, I've never experienced any bigotry. There was only one place that I
(40:02):
walked in and I was with her and it felt like I needed to be a little bit mindful.
But yeah, I haven't, overtly, I haven't experienced anything.
So do you think, do you think that it's harder for a man to come out gay or a woman, or do you
think it's kind of equally as challenging? You know, I don't know. I mean, I'm a new baby gay.
(40:29):
And so I don't know that I would want to speak for other people. I will say, however,
in my experience and from watching people around me make hard decisions in their life,
being authentically yourself is freaking hard kind of just anyway. And so, because we do
(40:50):
love our families and we humans thrive on connection and anything that will,
we perceive that would threaten that connection is scary. So I couldn't say whether it would be
more difficult for a male or female, I think being authentically yourself in an environment
where you might lose connection is just hard. Yeah, I agree with that.
(41:15):
I think that's very true too, all in all. So if you had any advice, and I like,
I love that you say I'm a baby gay, but being that you're still new in it,
it's probably the best time to hear what would you recommend to people that are questioning
their sexuality or even a family member who has somebody who has come out and they're questioning
(41:46):
the sexuality of somebody or they're here's the thing, I don't know that family members and friends
question the sexuality. I think what they do is they worry. They worry that this person is going
to get persecuted or they worry that this person is going to get hurt somehow. That's the thing that,
and I know there's some, it's a fear. Again, it's fear for the family. What would,
(42:08):
from the family, sorry, what would you recommend to somebody questioning their sexuality and thinking,
okay, I'm on this tight wire, I don't know whether to come out or not. What is your advice or your
steps to doing, what would you just recommend to them? Sure. I think one of the things that
(42:34):
feels really important, and this is important for everyone probably regardless of their sexuality,
is as humans, we struggle liking ourselves very well or being kind to ourselves. So I have done
a lot of work over the last three years therapy, coaching various things that allowed me to feel
(43:01):
really, really comfortable with just me as a person, regardless of where my sexuality, like,
I'm okay. So if, for people who are questioning their sexuality, I think when you get confident in
that you are okay just the way you are because you're human and you feel really comfortable with
yourself, then all the rest of that will fall into place and you'll be less concerned about how other
(43:30):
people perceive you. For family, I think, gosh, dang it, just love people. I was so clear with my kids
when I raised them, the thing that I knew, and you don't know anything when you're having babies,
but the one thing that I did know that I wanted to do the best that I could
(43:51):
was just love them. I never wanted them to walk into a room and feel like they didn't belong.
I just wanted them to know that they were okay just the way they are. And so for all those fears,
persecution, fear, those are real and true things that happen and it's awful. And if we set the
(44:15):
example of love and kindness and generosity and acceptance and curiosity, my gosh, just get curious
and ask some questions and not make assumptions about how people are operating in the world,
it would probably go a long ways. Yeah, wow. I agree and that's all around, not just
(44:39):
for sexuality. I have so many things to say about that because you raised your kids to be kind,
you raised, but ultimately, I would agree with that. So one thing we keep coming back to, Scott,
is people either through therapy or something, finding themselves and then they get to transition
a little more beautifully. Isn't that something we feel like we've done, like heard from you and I
(45:05):
for sure and now with Jesse and I know we have several others who have done it too.
Yeah, I just think that you owe it to yourself and your family to figure out who the true you,
no matter what situation you're in, I think it's figuring out who you are the best person as and
if you are the best person as something else, you got to make that transition because it is going
(45:27):
to make you better father, it's going to make you a better mother, it's going to make you a better
spouse and I think you owe it to yourself as much as you do the family that's around you.
So Jesse, to end the podcast, is there anything you want to add to your story that you feel like
is really, really important or do you feel like you have told what you want to say?
(45:52):
And I also want to end with knowing where you're at. I feel like I'm on the edge of
you're probably happy, you're in a great relationship. I want to hear more about that at the end.
Oh, sure. So yes, I'm incredibly happy. I think one of the coolest things
to have come out of this, and I've shared this with Connie before, growing up in a space of
(46:18):
religion and I want to be very clear about there's religion and then there's spirituality and a
personal relationship. I'm speaking very much from a religious standpoint. I remember them
like always being taught about this piece that surpasses all understanding and it just
seemed so out of grasp like it was something I was supposed to find and never could.
(46:42):
And last summer, when I turned my life upside down and seemingly should have been terrified,
I have been the most peaceful that I have ever existed in my life. It's so freaking cool to
(47:03):
not just walk around a ball of anxiety all the time and just have peace and confidence.
Being in a relationship with someone and having a very clear set of boundaries, like there are
certain things that I will not put myself through. There are certain things that I,
(47:25):
yeah, I just won't accept for my existence any longer and having the safety to articulate those
to my partner and the vulnerability of being able to say, hey, this doesn't feel good. Can we figure
it out and be in a relationship where that's possible of saying, yes, absolutely. Let's figure
this out is such a cool experience. Really being able to say, yeah, that was all my shit that I
(47:51):
just brought to the table. Sorry about that. I'll go deal with it on my own. Or, oh, yeah,
okay, I think maybe that's an us thing or whatever. It's just a cool place to be.
I'm just having a really good time being peaceful and not being afraid anymore.
(48:14):
Well, I love that story. I think this is very inspirational. I know there's people out there
that are going through that same thoughts, views, transitions, and knowing that you can get to the
other side and see some peace and have that calm nature and be the better person. I think that's
(48:34):
kind of the key to all these stories. It is. It really is. And I think there's much fear overall.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I so appreciate it. I can't tell you how proud I am
of you. And like I said, I get to see my old friend again, without the chaos.
(48:54):
And I love that you are happy. I love that your kiddos are happy. I love that
your journey has led you to this. And it's such a beautiful one. And I so thank you for being on
here and sharing your story. And I pray that it helps other people and helps them get something
(49:19):
out of this, whatever it is. I can't define that for others. But it was beautiful hearing
about your journey. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Absolutely. I think we could
have many discussions with you on topics. I know. It might be like, that's probably how we're going
to start feeling a lot, Scott, is just we want to talk to people for hours upon hours. So,
(49:42):
all right. Well, again, thank you so much for your story. And do you have any other questions,
Scott? Well, I've got too many to even ask. So, no, we'll have to just close it.
We'll just have to do another one again. Absolutely. This was great. Yeah.
That was great. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jess. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks. Bye-bye.
(50:06):
Okay. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Our Life Beyond. We really hope that
you found our discussion insightful and inspiring or at least brought us a smile to your day. If you
did enjoy this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform and
leave us a review. For more information, resources or show notes, visit our website at
(50:27):
ourlifebeyond.com. You can also follow us on social media, search for us on Facebook at Our Life
Beyond. We would love to hear from you, our listeners, so feel free to reach out with your
questions, comments or suggestions through our Contact Us page at ourlifebeyond.com or on social
media. And once again, thank you for joining us on this journey. Till next time, remember,
(50:51):
Life Beyond, any challenge is possible and we're here to navigate it with you. Stay strong,
stay positive and keep moving forward.
Well, hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Our Life Beyond the podcast where we explore how
(00:12):
to navigate and hopefully thrive through some of life's biggest transitions. I'm your
co-host Scott Dibben and I've teamed up with my great friend and mentor Connie King to
share some stories, strategies, and insights that helped us adapt to the ever-changing
seasons of our life. Whether your life transition is divorce, death of a loved one, switching
(00:34):
careers, moving to a new city, or just trying to figure out what the hell is next, where
with you every step of the way. But always remember, we're not therapists, just fellow
travelers with a knack for finding humor in the chaos, and maybe some untraditional method
of overcoming what life dishes out to us. Hopefully you'll have fun embarking on this
(00:55):
journey. So now, let's get started.
I want to give a special thank you to Habit Coffee for sponsoring us. So if you're local
to Springfield, you're probably aware of the miserable construction at Highway 60 and
Farm Road 125 heading into Rogersville. Yeah, right in the midst of all that progress is
(01:17):
the Habit Coffee Company, a fantastic local, vagina-owned business. They're more than
just a coffee shop. They serve delicious scratch-made breakfast and lunch options. They have a state
and county-inspected kitchen, and they love catering events. While it might take a bit
of extra effort to reach them right now, they're excited about the upcoming expansion when the
(01:39):
highway reopens this fall. Support the Habit Coffee Company and enjoy their incredible
offerings today. Thank you so much, Habit Coffee.
Hey, Skies. Well, hello, Connie. How are you?
I'm good. How are you? I'm doing well. What are we doing today, Connie?
I'm so excited today. So today, we have a guest. It's our first guest of any of our
(02:03):
podcasts, and it's a doozy. Like, it is... Oh, I don't even know how to say it, so I'm
very excited. I know you were excited, so it must be
good. It is good. So today, what we're going to
do is we're going to be talking to one of my dearest, dearest friends. I have known
(02:23):
her since... I think it was like 2006. We met around in that 2006, 2008, and we home
schooled together. We met in the nursery holding babies.
Oh, wow. Yeah. We became very close. And over the
(02:44):
years, we have just... I guess we've fallen into each other in these moments of... Like,
we've been so vulnerable with each other. And when life got hard or when there was something
we needed to talk about that was taboo maybe to the home school community or anything like
(03:06):
that, she and I could just rely on each other.
So this is just one of your people? One of my people, yeah.
Awesome. And over the years, she has gone through
an amazing journey, like a butter... I don't know how to describe it, because she has come
(03:26):
out as this beautiful, strong, brave, courageous... I don't even know the words to use, woman,
but I just really look up to her and I look up to her story. And we will talk to her.
(03:48):
She'll lead you through it. But basically, her story is she was married for 28 years.
She has six children who, by the way, she's an amazing mother. I used to sit there and
think, oh, I wish I raised my kids like she did, because they're all so cute. They're
(04:08):
all kind, kind humans. And she had six kids, homeschooled. She was pretty ingrained in religion.
And I'll let her talk about that a little more. But there was a point in her life where
she started, I think, deconstructing religion. She started deconstructing her marriage. And
(04:34):
she has now come out. She's now a lesbian and she has a partner who is... I mean, you
should see their relationship. It's really, really beautiful. They're so respectful and
so kind to each other. And it has just been an amazing story. And I think what she has
(04:54):
to say will help people. I think it will enlighten people. And I think it will be just a really,
really good lesson for people. So with that, I want to introduce one of my people, who
(05:14):
is Jessie. Hey, Jessie.
Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for being on here, Connie.
Say that again.
I just adore you. You're just one of my most favorite people. And I'm so grateful for you
and our friendship and the space that we've been able to create for each other over these
last many years.
(05:35):
Yeah. What year was it that we met? Do you remember?
It was 2007 because Maya was only a couple months old, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I still love that girl. Which is how that happened that she's 17 years ago now. Gosh.
(05:57):
Yeah. That's not cool.
It's cool.
I know.
So Connie, Connie talks through that you've went through several transitions.
Yeah.
Let's talk about that.
Do you want to at least start with like how your life started and went through to where
it is today and kind of some of the transitions you went through?
Yeah.
(06:17):
Doing overview.
Cool.
Yeah.
So I grew up in a very small town in Northwest Kansas in a religious household. In a tiny
town in a religious household in the mid-80s, early 90s. So the time was just much different.
(06:45):
And I think there's something in our culture that when you grew up in that time period
and in that space, there was a set of expectations that you needed to follow. And you checked
off all the boxes because what would people think? What would God think? What would family
think? What would society think? And so you just kind of follow the script happily. I
(07:12):
followed that script very happily. I think you're also maybe not completely consciously
aware that you're following a script.
I was married when I was 21. We went on to have six babies and we were married for almost
27 years. We were together for, yeah, almost 28. And in that time period, I think I, it
(07:42):
was important to me to raise my children in a home. And I felt like the only way that
I could do that well was following this religious path. If I didn't have God, then there was
no way anything that was going to work out. So we did. And we went to church. He grew
(08:05):
up in a much different religion than I did. They were Sabbath keepers. It was just a different
experience. At some point in time, I decided to follow that path with him. And so we became
Sabbath keepers. I like to say that we went a little bit culty for a period of time. So
(08:28):
we were a little bit culty. And then about the time that I met Connie, we started homeschooling,
which is its own version of culty, culty environment and this, a new series of expectations. And
you know, I, you just follow the path and it works very well until it doesn't. I think
(08:56):
for me, there were a series of events that happened that started shaking everything for me. I took
an Old Testament course at OTC to finish my degree. And there were so many things about
religion that I started questioning, like, wait a second, none of this makes sense anymore. I'm
(09:16):
very, very curious. And I ask a lot of questions. So when I didn't get answers that I liked, or
that made sense, it just made me go, huh, it feels like there isn't a correct. So I did, I
started deconstructing my religion. Probably around 2011 or 2012. Another one of my dear
(09:38):
friends also had seven children also was in the little bit culty homeschool world was doing the
same thing at the same time. And we, we came at that from very different directions, but at the
same time, so that was supportive. My ex-husband also was going through a deconstruction. And I was
always so grateful that we experienced that at the same time. So it didn't create a lot of conflict.
(10:03):
We both were like, Hey, none of this works for us anymore. And we were able to leave that space.
Shortly thereafter, my mother-in-law passed away. And she was my rock. I mean, we lived really
close to her. She was incredibly supportive, incredibly kind, just one of those people who
(10:25):
would, would absolutely be a saint. And that altered my existence and the way I looked at
work, the world in ways that I was not prepared for grief. Connie, I know you know this is
just something that until you've experienced it and clawed your way out of it or through it or
(10:50):
however, yeah, it just alters everything. And so I think I started questioning a lot of things then
and it shook my foundation in a way that I wasn't prepared for. It altered the way I related to my
my spouse at the time, my kids, myself. I mean, I think it opened me up to this new experience
(11:12):
of how I wanted to live my life. That was in 2015. So yeah, so over the last nine years,
there's something about grief turning 40 that for me made me question how I wanted to live
the rest of my life and what I was okay with and what I wanted to experience and what I wasn't
(11:35):
anymore. And so I've always known there was this part of me that was attracted to women and so
incredibly curious. And I also from a very young age knew that that was not, that was just all in
the not box, like just nope. I did ironically, the first person I came out to was my husband at the
(12:00):
time when we were 22 probably like, hey, I think that I've always been attracted to women. But it
felt like this separate experience or it was something that was just over my shoulder
and not entirely embodied, if that makes sense. And so yeah, I think over the last nine years,
(12:22):
for whatever reason, that has definitely been something that became less possible to ignore.
And I'm still walking around in a marriage and six kids and there's still a lot of
expectations that I felt like I needed to uphold. And there's fear, gosh, the fear, right? Like,
(12:48):
I've been married for almost 27 years. I have six kids. What are people going to think? What am I
going to be letting go of? What am I going to be stepping into this unknown space? I like to say
that I feel like the last three years in particularly have been a lot of weeping and gnashing of
(13:09):
teeth and the wearing of sat cloth and ashes. Like, I never knew what that felt like and that's the
closest thing I can come to it now. Just really wrestling with myself against myself, trying to
hold onto something that didn't need to be held onto anymore and really afraid of what my life
(13:34):
would look like if I let it go. So can we kind of stop there for a minute? Because like at this
point, I have... I'm sitting here in my private... Yeah, I've got so many questions. Yeah, okay,
go ahead. Sorry. The questions are going to start. Do you mind if we start asking? Because this is
absolutely so intriguing. First of all, so I remember when your mother-in-law passed and it
(13:55):
was a huge thing and grief does that. I think that's a huge thing for people is when you experience
grief, it's okay to say, wait, what the hell just happened? That's not how life was supposed to be.
And you do start questioning everything and you start going, that doesn't make sense. That doesn't
(14:17):
make sense. That doesn't make sense. So where yours may have even started before then, do you feel like
that was the big, big thing that made you go, uh-uh, I gotta find something different in life?
Like, and what I mean by that is like, it knocked your trajectory off. Do you feel like that was
(14:41):
what happened when she passed? Yes, absolutely. Just my entire world shifted and altered and
something about trying to put it back together. Yeah, it just tilted everything. Right. You
couldn't go on the way it was because it didn't make sense. Exactly. I get that completely. Yeah.
(15:07):
So, yeah, I've got a couple questions, but we'll just go back and forth, Connie.
Okay. So you're from a small Midwest town, is that true?
Yes. Okay. So do you believe that even through school that you had some of these thoughts and
maybe because of where you were and the principles that you followed kept you from even looking at
(15:31):
that side as far as lesbian, you know, being gay attracted to women, any of that? Or do you feel
like that it just took you a while to figure out who you are? Oh, I think I knew on some level,
I'm trying to feel like an analogy like looking through glasses darkly, right? Like there's a
(15:53):
knowing, but there's all these cultural filters that you're experiencing life through at the time
that makes it harder to see or recognize or own and create safety for yourself, right? You're a
young kid. There was some part of me that knew, let me say, there's some part of me that felt
(16:19):
because I didn't know, I acted on what I felt that if I would have explored that or been curious,
I would have maybe had a decision to make about my family's support or lack thereof at that point
in time and fear is a powerful motivator. Oh, yes, it is. I never gave my family a chance
(16:43):
to love me through that. In the 80s, which of course in the 80s, most of the people didn't
come out if they were. Did you have anybody that you knew in your circle or even outside of your
circle that you thought was possible? No. No? Interesting. Well, I had one, there was one
(17:03):
kid in my high school that never came out. Nobody did that in my hometown. I think there was an
understanding from most of his classmates, but there was never a public coming out.
And also, I'm not entirely sure that I understood that homosexuality encompassed men and women.
(17:33):
I think the context that I had growing up was gay men. And I don't know that I fully
comprehended or understood, and I certainly didn't have any examples of what gay women
looked like or what that was or what the word for it would have been, lesbian even.
It wasn't until I graduated high school and I moved to Lawrence, Kansas,
(17:57):
that this other world opened up for me. And I laugh now because I moved to town and immediately
all of my best friends were gay men and we went to the Lilith Fair and I had such great
relationships with these lesbian women. And there was so much curiosity and there was a part of
(18:23):
me that just knew or felt very much like that wasn't a path that I could explore. But that was my
circle. I spent my 21st birthday at the gay bars in Westport with all of my gay friends.
So was that before you got married then? Yes, that was before. So yeah, so that would have been
(18:43):
the summer before I met my husband at the time. And we met, got engaged and got married in less
than nine months. Oh wow. Yeah. And so then you are on this new, and I always knew that I wanted
to be a mother and have a family. And I think that that was probably not something that I was
(19:04):
consciously aware of, but definitely there was an ordered path for how to have a family at that
point in time. Yes, I understand that as a woman. I understand that. Yeah. You're just,
you're just supposed to, you're supposed to get married, have kids. In my case, be a stay-at-home
(19:25):
mom, then we homeschooled. So I think it's that same thing for a lot of women. I think my question,
well, I'll let you continue to your story. And here's why, because I think I know your story
pretty well from three years ago back. But your story from three years forward, which is interesting,
(19:53):
I think is what I have more questions about. So let's, let's continue from where you were at
when you said, you know, well, now that we've asked questions, I've kind of forgotten where we were at.
But from your, let's talk about from when you knew you were going to come out, when you were like,
okay, what was that transition? What happened there that was the definitive, yes, I'm a lesbian,
(20:20):
I need everybody to know it because that's how I'm going to live authentically. Let's start there.
So I think there's a couple pieces of information before I can come to that point.
Okay. So my marriage after my mother-in-law passed away, things all shifted, including
(20:44):
what I felt like the way that my husband at the time and I relate it, right? It changed the dynamics
of our relationship from my perspective. So there's that happening. And then I think the last three
years in that space have been incredibly difficult and knowing that we're not connecting and
(21:08):
showing up for each other in the way that is the best for either of us in the way that we need to.
And also, I think we both had a lot of fear about what it would look like if we just said,
hey, I don't think this is working anymore. And so through that series of unfortunate events of that,
also at the same time parallel to that experience is this internal knowing that's becoming so much
(21:33):
more solid and real. And funnily enough, I read a book called Untamed by Glennon Doyle,
I don't know, probably three or four years ago. And in it, it talks about how she's asking herself
about her interest and attraction to women internally. And she was like, oh, gosh,
if only I had another life, maybe I could experience that. And in the book, she's like,
(21:57):
as if we have more than one life. And there was something about that quote when I read that book
that scared me to death, because it felt like I knew that I was going to have to make a decision.
And then there's just fear, like what are my kids going to think? What if I wreck our entire
(22:19):
family? What if all these different things? So that's happening. Then there's all these
things that are happening in my relationship with my ex husband that sort of make all those decisions
easier. It became, I just became more comfortable with saying that that is not a space that is
(22:45):
healthy for me any longer or for him, and having the courage to walk away from that many years.
So that's all happening kind of on the left. And then there's all this internal internal
recognition of what's happening in my attraction or curiosity about women. And through this process,
(23:07):
it's not been a conversation that my ex and I hadn't had that it's always, he's always known.
And he actually was always very open to say, hey, if that's ever something you want to experience,
you know, you'll have my support, which I so appreciate. And I wasn't going to do anything
that would wreck my family. And I kind of always said, if owning my true self was going to be
(23:34):
something that happened in this life, then the universe would just have to say, here she is,
like, plunk somebody down in the middle. I'm very risk averse. I don't go out bar hopping.
I'm not a flirt. I'm not getting on apps. I'm not going on blind dates. Like, I was not going to seek
(23:58):
anything out. That's just not how I operate. And so, yeah, I, for all I know, I could have said,
I'm coming out and then I could have just become a cat lady lesbian by myself from now until I die.
But the universe also listens to us. And so I was always like, well, if, if that's ever
(24:22):
supposed to be a thing, then somebody will show up. And she did in the most crazy way. And it was so
so profound and instantaneous that I couldn't not see what that was. And so then after that,
(24:44):
it was easy. Like, I have no questions. I have no fear. We actually were just talking the other
day. I think a lot of people ask like, so what would you think if I told you I was gay, trying to,
you know, test the waters a little bit? And I didn't. I just told everybody that I met someone,
(25:09):
and this is who I am, and this is how I'm operating now, and how they felt or thought about it would
be something that they would have to work out for themselves. But life is too short to not be who you
are completely. And I just don't want to have a part of that existence anymore. So, oh, that is so
cool. So in my mind, the whole time you've been talking, I know everybody has probably seen that
(25:34):
picture of a woman who's standing naked. And there is just all you see isn't like a, I don't even know
what you call it a help me out here, like chipping away at the outer and you start seeing a different
woman break through. Yes. Have you seen that picture, Scott? Have you seen that picture?
I know exactly what you're talking about. So that is like, I'm sitting there thinking about that,
(26:01):
just going, oh, wow, that's again, that butterfly coming out of, you know, the cocoon.
But so once you decided, once it was easy, then you told, let's, who was the first person you
told besides, I mean, let's skip the husband from 20 years ago or 27 years ago, who was the first
(26:23):
person you told? So I think there was a couple people that I felt very, very safe with and
tested the waters, three, actually, you being one of them, there were two other friends of mine
that I'm like, hey, I think this is a thing that I'm not sure I can deny any longer. Over the last,
(26:45):
probably three years, after everything sort of came to a head and decisions needed to be made,
then I went to my kids. So because that was going to tear me up too, right? Like, I adore my children
and I've worked very hard to create a life for them. The best I knew how, right? It wasn't always
(27:09):
perfect for sure, but I love them dearly. And now I'm going to get emotional. So having my kids
accept me in this life was the most important. I could, I can handle other people saying no.
Having them decide that they wouldn't want to be in my life would have been hard,
(27:33):
hard, hard. And I knew that I was going to have to be okay with that too. So I went to my older
children first and I was like, hey, there's all this stuff happening over here on the left
in our family, as you know it, that's going to require some change. Anyway, that was going to
(27:55):
happen anyway. And then also there's this part of me that you need to know about. And I mean,
I have the best freaking kids. So I'm, tell my 17 year old and she's like, is this my mom coming
out to me? And I go, yeah, I guess it is. And she's like, well, it's about time. And she references
(28:22):
one of your kids was the one that was, this was so funny because this is what I love about the
story with your kids. You were telling them not only were they just like, okay, well, whatever,
they were authentically themselves and were sarcastic like every freaking teenager could be.
Was it Adam that was like something about you driving a Subaru? Can you tell that story?
(28:45):
What was that? Cause I laughed at that. Yes. So, I mean, obviously this has been a huge transition
for everyone and it's also affected my children deeply. And so I'm telling my son, Adam, and
(29:06):
I said, so there's this other thing you need to know about me. And I feel like it's really
important that I am true to myself and whatever. And he's like, well, like, duh, mom, you bought a
white Subaru outback. Like that's the poster car for every lesbian in the country. And he's like,
(29:26):
and you have a full sleeve tattoo. And yeah, like, duh. And I appreciated that so much. I was like,
well, you could have clued me in. Like my kids are all like, duh, mom. And I'm thinking it never
occurred to you to be like, hey, mom, are you really living your authentic self? But that's okay.
(29:48):
That's a journey you have to go on for yourself regardless of what other people say. But I was
told that. So much relief. So Jesse, what was the age range of your kids at that time?
I guess, let me think. At the time, my oldest daughter would have been 23.
(30:09):
She and her partner would have been expecting their first baby, my first grandbaby. And then
the youngest was nine and a half. Okay. So they were of age of understanding?
Yeah. Yeah. Did they all? So did you sit down? You didn't sit them down as a group? Did you
individually talk to them? Most of it was individual. Yeah, really, every conversation,
(30:33):
I think was individual. Yeah. And I was so grateful for the acceptance. And
obviously there's pain involved, right? Like their life is changing forever
because of certain aspects of this. But overwhelmingly, yeah, just so much acceptance
(30:54):
and love and just struggling. Like, okay, that's what we're doing now. Cool.
What's neat about your story? It's not that much different than mine. Mine was through a divorce.
But I know there was a certain time that I felt like when I knew something needed to happen,
you almost felt selfish. Am I doing this? I'm going to tear up the family. Am I being selfish
(31:16):
by doing this? But what I found out, and I hope you did too, is at the end when it's all over,
when you can be your true self, when you can be the person you're supposed to be,
you actually have better relationships. You're easier to be with even for your kids.
Oh, absolutely. I think that was one of the things over the last, especially the last year and a half,
(31:39):
you know, there was all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth and sad cloth and ashes and just
really struggling on all aspects everywhere. And a sort of like white knuckling your existence,
like if I just hold on and all this will be like, we can just keep our shit together. It'll all be
fine. And then when it all crashes, there is this immense sense of relief. And all of a sudden,
(32:09):
I have so much more energy and bandwidth for my kids and for their experience and for other
friendships and aspects of my life. There's just this great expanse that's available now
that I had been very, very small and contained for a long time. So it was hard to tap into that.
(32:33):
Well, and I can tell you from experience, I'll say the last three years, you have been in what I
will call a chaotic realm. You know, there was always, it was always things coming at you. It was
like just things were constantly coming at you. And where I know you are such a positive person,
(32:56):
you always kept this brave face, but I could, like you and I would talk and I would hear things
and I'd be like, oh, this is not easy for her. This is not good for her. Oh, she's trying to fix
this. She's trying to figure this out. She's trying to do all these things. And I will tell you,
it was kind of funny the day you got your house, the, you know, when you moved out, because that's a
(33:21):
story in and of itself. There was some chaos within like the divorce and her moving from a house
and that, but when she finally said, you know what, screw it, I've got to do what is good for me.
And my, you know, the kids and not chaos. And she kind of let go of everything else. It was almost
(33:42):
like I felt a breath from you. And I think that's the thing is that you keep getting to take these
breaths as you become authentic. And I get to see, like, I get to see my old friend again,
you know, and that's, that's the more beautiful part for me is that I, where, yeah, you were,
(34:05):
you were married, you were still quest, like, I won't say you weren't authentic because I think
for the time that we met, we were both authentic. And as we've grown and changed, you know, we've
found something different. But that's the one that that's the thing that I feel like has happened
(34:25):
is that I'm starting to see my calm, brilliant, just not in the chaos friend. And it's, it's been,
it's been really good. You know, such a good, good thing. It really is. And I think fear is a funny
(34:49):
thing, you know, like letting go, letting go of so many things. I just feel like this last couple
years, that's all I've done is let go, let go, let go, let go, let go and let go letting go of
the address. And that like kind of final act of, I don't know, stepping into my own thing
(35:11):
was really hard. And I was actually just telling my dad this morning, I'm like, gosh, if, if I would
have known how peaceful I would feel again, I would have not fought so hard internally for this
place. Yeah, letting go and not letting fear dictate feels so important. So what was the hardest
(35:39):
part of all this? Was it telling friends? Was it telling family? Did you end up losing friends or
any family that didn't want to connect with you afterwards? No, I've been, you know, Scott, that's
the thing is really once I quit fighting with myself and just said, I can't anymore. Like there's
(36:04):
just this surrender, not only to what I knew I needed to let go of, but also what I wanted to
step into. It's been so easy. I am so incredibly grateful for my friends, my family. I've not
heard really any negativity, you know, for the people that are in my life, they're so incredibly
(36:31):
supportive, you know, talking to Connie, she was like, Oh, cool. I can't wait to meet her, you know,
like, it's just been my family has been incredibly supportive. It's very much like, we just want
to see you happy. Also, all family who live in a very tiny town in conservative Northwest Kansas.
(36:52):
So, and I even told some of them, I'm like, I know that this information might come as a shock
to you. And I might, I know that you might feel a kind of way about it. That's cool. You absolutely
can. And it was funny. So I was having this conversation with my aunt and she's like, Oh,
my gosh, it's just so good to see you happy. And we were kind of joking around. I was joking around
(37:13):
with my cousin. And then my cousin looked at my aunt and she's like, that's the Jess I remember.
And my aunt kind of teared up and she's like, Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you're back. And I broke down
because I thought I had kept it together. And I was smiling and nodding. And I had shrunk myself
(37:38):
to nothingness almost. And so, yeah, it just feels good to find joy. I knew so clearly that I didn't
know what that felt like three years ago. But I didn't know how to get it back.
Yeah. And you know, sometimes,
sometimes I think it's for me at least, and maybe the same for you,
(38:02):
you replay the story in your head of what it's going to look like when you come out. And it's
going to be all this chaos that's going to be people pissed off. It's going to be people not
supporting. And you're going to have to find this different group of friends. And you're going to
have, you know, my life's going to totally change. And who knows what's going to happen.
And I think a lot of people, that's that story they play in their head. But it's not realistic.
I think we always go to the worst case scenario.
(38:25):
Well, I do have a question because we live in the Bible Belt. And I'm really surprised to hear
that you've not had some pushback and maybe not so much from your friends and family, but
living here in the buckle of the Bible Belt, have you experienced any negativity?
If you have, how did you handle it? Or was it just a thing where it's like,
(38:48):
yeah, that person's an idiot. And then you go on, tell me a little bit about if you've had
any of those experiences. So I think I have not. I haven't had any experiences directly or indirectly
that I said, that didn't feel very good. A couple of things to that. One, I think I might be oblivious
(39:11):
to a lot of it because I haven't always been gay. And so I don't, I don't know what that would look
like. My partner has, you know, she's been out since she had graduated from high school. So
she has experienced a lot of bigotry and hatred. So she's on a very high alert.
(39:33):
She comes from a place of being on high alert, which I appreciate because I am probably oblivious
to the looks and things. It just, it won't register. Also, I'm, unless she and I are together,
I'm very femme presenting. So it's not like anybody would go, oh, well, obviously she's
a lesbian. So individually, I've never experienced any bigotry. There was only one place that I
(40:02):
walked in and I was with her and it felt like I needed to be a little bit mindful.
But yeah, I haven't, overtly, I haven't experienced anything.
So do you think, do you think that it's harder for a man to come out gay or a woman, or do you
think it's kind of equally as challenging? You know, I don't know. I mean, I'm a new baby gay.
(40:29):
And so I don't know that I would want to speak for other people. I will say, however,
in my experience and from watching people around me make hard decisions in their life,
being authentically yourself is freaking hard kind of just anyway. And so, because we do
(40:50):
love our families and we humans thrive on connection and anything that will,
we perceive that would threaten that connection is scary. So I couldn't say whether it would be
more difficult for a male or female, I think being authentically yourself in an environment
where you might lose connection is just hard. Yeah, I agree with that.
(41:15):
I think that's very true too, all in all. So if you had any advice, and I like,
I love that you say I'm a baby gay, but being that you're still new in it,
it's probably the best time to hear what would you recommend to people that are questioning
their sexuality or even a family member who has somebody who has come out and they're questioning
(41:46):
the sexuality of somebody or they're here's the thing, I don't know that family members and friends
question the sexuality. I think what they do is they worry. They worry that this person is going
to get persecuted or they worry that this person is going to get hurt somehow. That's the thing that,
and I know there's some, it's a fear. Again, it's fear for the family. What would,
(42:08):
from the family, sorry, what would you recommend to somebody questioning their sexuality and thinking,
okay, I'm on this tight wire, I don't know whether to come out or not. What is your advice or your
steps to doing, what would you just recommend to them? Sure. I think one of the things that
(42:34):
feels really important, and this is important for everyone probably regardless of their sexuality,
is as humans, we struggle liking ourselves very well or being kind to ourselves. So I have done
a lot of work over the last three years therapy, coaching various things that allowed me to feel
(43:01):
really, really comfortable with just me as a person, regardless of where my sexuality, like,
I'm okay. So if, for people who are questioning their sexuality, I think when you get confident in
that you are okay just the way you are because you're human and you feel really comfortable with
yourself, then all the rest of that will fall into place and you'll be less concerned about how other
(43:30):
people perceive you. For family, I think, gosh, dang it, just love people. I was so clear with my kids
when I raised them, the thing that I knew, and you don't know anything when you're having babies,
but the one thing that I did know that I wanted to do the best that I could
(43:51):
was just love them. I never wanted them to walk into a room and feel like they didn't belong.
I just wanted them to know that they were okay just the way they are. And so for all those fears,
persecution, fear, those are real and true things that happen and it's awful. And if we set the
(44:15):
example of love and kindness and generosity and acceptance and curiosity, my gosh, just get curious
and ask some questions and not make assumptions about how people are operating in the world,
it would probably go a long ways. Yeah, wow. I agree and that's all around, not just
(44:39):
for sexuality. I have so many things to say about that because you raised your kids to be kind,
you raised, but ultimately, I would agree with that. So one thing we keep coming back to, Scott,
is people either through therapy or something, finding themselves and then they get to transition
a little more beautifully. Isn't that something we feel like we've done, like heard from you and I
(45:05):
for sure and now with Jesse and I know we have several others who have done it too.
Yeah, I just think that you owe it to yourself and your family to figure out who the true you,
no matter what situation you're in, I think it's figuring out who you are the best person as and
if you are the best person as something else, you got to make that transition because it is going
(45:27):
to make you better father, it's going to make you a better mother, it's going to make you a better
spouse and I think you owe it to yourself as much as you do the family that's around you.
So Jesse, to end the podcast, is there anything you want to add to your story that you feel like
is really, really important or do you feel like you have told what you want to say?
(45:52):
And I also want to end with knowing where you're at. I feel like I'm on the edge of
you're probably happy, you're in a great relationship. I want to hear more about that at the end.
Oh, sure. So yes, I'm incredibly happy. I think one of the coolest things
to have come out of this, and I've shared this with Connie before, growing up in a space of
(46:18):
religion and I want to be very clear about there's religion and then there's spirituality and a
personal relationship. I'm speaking very much from a religious standpoint. I remember them
like always being taught about this piece that surpasses all understanding and it just
seemed so out of grasp like it was something I was supposed to find and never could.
(46:42):
And last summer, when I turned my life upside down and seemingly should have been terrified,
I have been the most peaceful that I have ever existed in my life. It's so freaking cool to
(47:03):
not just walk around a ball of anxiety all the time and just have peace and confidence.
Being in a relationship with someone and having a very clear set of boundaries, like there are
certain things that I will not put myself through. There are certain things that I,
(47:25):
yeah, I just won't accept for my existence any longer and having the safety to articulate those
to my partner and the vulnerability of being able to say, hey, this doesn't feel good. Can we figure
it out and be in a relationship where that's possible of saying, yes, absolutely. Let's figure
this out is such a cool experience. Really being able to say, yeah, that was all my shit that I
(47:51):
just brought to the table. Sorry about that. I'll go deal with it on my own. Or, oh, yeah,
okay, I think maybe that's an us thing or whatever. It's just a cool place to be.
I'm just having a really good time being peaceful and not being afraid anymore.
(48:14):
Well, I love that story. I think this is very inspirational. I know there's people out there
that are going through that same thoughts, views, transitions, and knowing that you can get to the
other side and see some peace and have that calm nature and be the better person. I think that's
(48:34):
kind of the key to all these stories. It is. It really is. And I think there's much fear overall.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I so appreciate it. I can't tell you how proud I am
of you. And like I said, I get to see my old friend again, without the chaos.
(48:54):
And I love that you are happy. I love that your kiddos are happy. I love that
your journey has led you to this. And it's such a beautiful one. And I so thank you for being on
here and sharing your story. And I pray that it helps other people and helps them get something
(49:19):
out of this, whatever it is. I can't define that for others. But it was beautiful hearing
about your journey. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Absolutely. I think we could
have many discussions with you on topics. I know. It might be like, that's probably how we're going
to start feeling a lot, Scott, is just we want to talk to people for hours upon hours. So,
(49:42):
all right. Well, again, thank you so much for your story. And do you have any other questions,
Scott? Well, I've got too many to even ask. So, no, we'll have to just close it.
We'll just have to do another one again. Absolutely. This was great. Yeah.
That was great. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jess. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks. Bye-bye.
(50:06):
Okay. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Our Life Beyond. We really hope that
you found our discussion insightful and inspiring or at least brought us a smile to your day. If you
did enjoy this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform and
leave us a review. For more information, resources or show notes, visit our website at
(50:27):
ourlifebeyond.com. You can also follow us on social media, search for us on Facebook at Our Life
Beyond. We would love to hear from you, our listeners, so feel free to reach out with your
questions, comments or suggestions through our Contact Us page at ourlifebeyond.com or on social
media. And once again, thank you for joining us on this journey. Till next time, remember,
(50:51):
Life Beyond, any challenge is possible and we're here to navigate it with you. Stay strong,
stay positive and keep moving forward.
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