Episode 3: Conversations about Conversations

Episode Transcript
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Harry Weidner (00:04):
All right, welcome back to our tangled
minds. Welcome to our tangledminds. Welcome. I'm Harry
Weidner. I'm

Jack Weidner (00:15):
Jack bagnatto,

and we're back again. We're back from being
back. We're back. We've got someexplaining to do. I understand
that we

I mean, the short of the matter is, we knew that
Donald Trump was coming backinto office, and we knew that
white boys were gonna have theirmoment. And we thought, now's
the time to profit. Now is thetime to profit off of this.

(00:49):
We're not starting it like that.
That's how we're starting it. Ithink it's really good. I think
we're not we're not starting it

like that. I refuse so like that. What do

you mean? Everyone knows that we're joking. No,
that's how we're starting it. Sowe have some explaining to do. I
don't think we have to explain.
I think we just say, I think weshould just say what we've been
up to. We've been busy doingbusy.

I got into medical school, so I'm in
Colorado, and you moved to NewYork. I moved to New York.
You're in Brooklyn, and we'vejust been busy. So we haven't

and being fully transparent, our mother and
grandmother just also moved fromtheir house of 50 years to a
smaller house, so they have beendownsizing as well, and we have
been trying to help with thattoo. There's been a lot of
movement in the past couple ofmonths.

So it's it's been chaos, but I don't know. I've
missed doing this.

I've missed chatting with you,

but this is a fun part. This is a fun part of
chatting. Yeah, so we're back,and I don't know we've been
trying to schedule this for acouple weeks, but it's just
never worked out. And here weare on MLK Day recording this.
Hopefully it comes out in aweek, if I can get my stuff

(02:20):
together. But what else do youhave to add before we get into
what we're gonna talk about?
Nothing.

I mean, I think we haven't talked about you moving
to Denver. There's some thingswe could talk about, like, Do
you Do you not want to talkabout you moving to Denver? Do
you talk

about it? If you want. We could talk about med
school, your

semester in at this point? Yeah, we

don't need to talk. You joined the Navy. Yeah,

it's a lot of life updates. You want to keep this,
keep the updates too. And prettymuch

what you just said, I'm in med school. I
joined the Navy. I'm inColorado. You're in Brooklyn.
You still work at the same job Ithink are you still just as lost
as ever?

Yeah? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I was
explaining mom was like so forHarry and I were both home over
Christmas break, break, butChristmas and Harry woke up on
his 25th birthday, decided torun a marathon, and I was his

(03:26):
water boy, which is prettythat's pretty much, describes
our relationship. You were mysupport. You were my crew. I was
I was his support. I was hiswife. I drove around in a car
and I filled up his water. Hewould throw his water bottle in
the car, and I would fill it upand give it and then pull ahead
of him and then hand it to himout the window so he could

(03:47):
continue this time of runningthe marathon on his 25th
birthday. And for the finalreplenishing session, my mother
goes with me, and she's like,how cool of it, or our mother, I
guess she goes, how cool of yourbrother just walk up and wake up
one day and want to run amarathon. Like, he's just such a

(04:08):
interesting like, he's such adriven guy, like, he sets a goal
and he's just able to make thathappen. And then she kind of
looks at me, and I'm like, Yeah,Harry is amazing. Like, I don't
know what to say. I'm like,Yeah, I guess I wake up and I
kind of feel around like I can'tsee and I said, that's actually
a really excellent way of, like,describing how you and I live

(04:30):
our lives, like you're verydriven. You set a goal, you go
after it a little bit, and I'mout here feeling my way around
in the dark until I stub my toe,and then I'm like, You know
what? I'll try again tomorrow.
So yes, I'm as lost as ever, butI'm loving Brooklyn. Good, good.

What's been your favorite part about the city

not having a car?
I don't know if that's myfavorite part. I mean, the
food's fantastic. I like thepeople I meet, but. Like,
relying on public transportationhas been really nice. And I
walk, I get to walk everywhere,which is great. Yeah,

what's your closest subway?

It's about a eight minute walk. It's not bad, no.
And I pass a, like, a grocerystore. So if I'm, like, going to
the subway on my way there or onmy way home, I can stop and get
groceries for dinner orsomething. So it's just really
nice.

And do you have, like, local places where you can
go do work?

Yeah, I don't.
There's coffee shops. Sure, Iwork from my apartment. I work
from where I'm recording this.
But

I thought, I thought one of your favorite
things was, like, going to acoffee shop and working

or reading. Yeah, that it is I go places and read.
I don't like to bring myworkplaces with me, because then
I'm like, mixing a place that Ilike, like a coffee shop, with
something that depresses me. SoI'd rather just, like bring
something that I like to thecoffee shop. If I'm enjoying
myself, I'll bring a book. Keepthe depressing stuff. Keep the

(05:59):
depressing stuff at home,depressing stuff where I live.
Yeah, that's good,

yeah,

yeah. Sensible.
What's your favorite part?
What's your favorite part aboutDenver? I like how

sunny it is all the time. Like it's it's seven
degrees right now, and it'sbeautiful. Feels like 19

i i do crazy think Denver would be so nice all the
time. You said every day ispretty much nice. It's pretty

much nice every day. Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
What's

your favorite part about med school?

Ooh, that's a that's a bigger question. I
think that it is awesome, and itfeels really good to finally be
where I've always wanted to be.
It, does it? People say I'mliving the dream and like I
every day live the dream, and itfeels so good. So I wake up and
I'm I'm really happy about whereI am and what I'm doing and how

(06:56):
hard I've worked to get here.
I'm very grateful for the amountof resources that have gone into
getting me here. And no, I loveit. I in my favorite part about
med school is like interactingwith patients. Tomorrow, I'll
work in the maternal fetalmedicine clinic with my first
year preceptor, and that will beawesome. I love my first year

(07:21):
preceptor. I love talking to thepatients. I love learning how
medicine actually works. It'sall, it's all awesome. So I
could talk, we could have talkedfor 45 minutes about how much I
love medical school.

We could, and we often do. And it's not, yeah,

yeah, no, it's, it's really great. I'm super
happy to be here. I think

everyone's very happy for you. I can't believe
we haven't recorded an episodesince Mom and I came out to
visit you for your white coatceremony. Yeah, but because I
think we tried to record anepisode, and then Tech had
technical difficulties, and thenwe stopped. But I think in that
episode, I said how surreal itwas for me to sit there and
realize that the culmination ofeverything you have worked for

(08:06):
in your life was beginning, andthat was a really surreal moment

for me. Thanks.
Thanks. Yeah, it's special be apart. Thanks. It feels, it feels
like Good to be here. What?

Yeah, having this conversation, I am painfully
aware of one of the lines fromthe article that you sent me
last night, which was, it wasthey were giving the example of
someone who frequents escaperooms, and they say, how often
someone who frequents escaperooms will like to tell other
people that they've done Xamount of escape rooms, and the

(08:41):
person will talk about it, andthen what they fail to
understand is that no one careson escape room, right? You could
ask other people about theirexperience with escape rooms,
but no one gives do we swear onthis podcast? I don't remember.
I'm like censoring myself, but Ithink I do last time, I won't

(09:01):
say the F word. No one gives ashit about escape rooms or your
experience about them. So nowI'm like, Ah, do they care that?
I mean, obviously people carewhat you do. But I'm just like,
everything I bring up nowadays,I'm like, do people care?
Probably not. I do wonder whatpeople care about. Well,

that's a good transition to what we thought we
Yeah, I like that. I sent jackthis article last night, and it,
it was Harry. Will

link it in the show notes. I will, or you

will, because you're gonna write these. Oh,
I'm gonna write, I we're gonnawrite the description, and I'm
gonna, I'll put the link inthere, unless you want to,

well, I can put the link in the description.
That's not her. Let's just tellthem what the articles.

Okay, it's it's called good articles have lots
of doorknobs, and it's by Adammaster. Do you know how to
pronounce that?

I don't Mastroianni do. Sure

feels good. It was an article written in 2022
about conversations. And I'vebeen thinking a lot about
conversations because I thinkI'm quite bad at them, and it's
something that I try. Yeah,right. I don't excuse me. I I
don't know. I've been trying toimprove my conversational
skills, and I think a lot of ithas to do with Okay,

now I def I didn't know we wanted to talk about
this. Now I definitely want totalk about it. Okay, sorry, I am
now. I wasn't sure how this wasgonna go. Now I'm fascinated.
Okay, sorry, a lot of it has todo with this. Sorry, go ahead. I
think

a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm
thinking about my conversationsdifferently now that I'm in
medical school and in a patient,facing role. Does that make
sense? I'm thinking about how tomake sense. I'm like, hyper
aware of how painfully awkward Iam in some conversations in some

(10:54):
contexts, but, yeah, I don'tknow. So I've just been trying
to figure out how I can be abetter conversationalist with
people. So

that's what we have to break this down. All
right, break it down becauseI'm, well, no, I'm fascinated by
this because I look at you assomeone who excels in
conversation. I rely veryheavily on you as you know, as I
say when we go out, we went out.
We were seeing people the daybefore Thanksgiving, and I loved
having Harry there, becauseanytime someone kept up, come up

(11:26):
to me, you know, how are youdoing? What are you doing? I
don't want to talk to them ortalk about myself in general, so
I'm like, I'm doing great. Youknow, Harry is in med school,
and then I'd like, shove Harryat them. And it worked really
well, because you can talk toany or from my perspective, you
can talk to anyone so and Idon't necessarily, I've had some

(11:48):
awkward interactions with you,but to go out in public with you
is I feel that you're very open.
You are very you have a veryfriendly presence to strangers,
to people in life, and you willtalk to anyone, and that is very

(12:10):
interesting to me. Okay, so youfeel that, oh, go ahead, yeah,

I was gonna say, like I I don't like that,
because I don't like talkingabout me either. I don't sure
like I want in a conversation. Iwant the other I want the other
person to be talking aboutthemselves, and I want that
person to to leave feelingreally good about themselves,
rather than me just talkingabout all the nonsense that I'm

(12:39):
up to. You know, sorry,

I don't know. I should have, I should have
clarified. I don't know what youtalk about. This is, this is
interesting, because what we'regoing to do is we are going to
eventually, inevitably talkabout self perception, how we
want to be in front of people,and how we want to be seen is
different than how we might be,how we might appear. How do we

(13:03):
get there? So we're gonnaeventually get to there. But I
didn't mean when, when someonewhen I say, oh, you know, my
brother's in med school, talk tohim. I don't mean that you talk
about yourself. I don't knowwhat you talk about, because as
soon as you come in, I'vestopped paying attention, I've
stopped listening. I've stoppedcaring. So, like, what I'm

(13:23):
saying is you are willing totalk to people, and I'm not even
willing to do that. Like, like,let's start with the very basis
of like, you seem engaged withother people and that, I think
when people get to know me, theyknow that I'm less than I
outwardly appear, I know that Iappear when I'm there. I'm like,

(13:44):
oh, like, I'm so easy inconversation. But like, you know
that I get like, sweaty, and Istart to, like, I start doing
this, like, weird thing with myhands, where I grind my knuckles
together. And it's like, veryeasy to the end. I do, I know,
and

it takes,

like, sorry, go ahead. No, you, no, I was just
gonna say it takes a lot ofwork, and for you from an
outward perspective like so, assomeone who relies on you in
conversations and groups, you dovery well from my perception. So
it's fun to hear me to hear youtalk about yourself,

yeah. So let's, let's break this down, this
podcast down, I think what youjust brought up leads naturally
into our different perceptionson small talk. Yeah, and I know
that you hate small talk and Ilike small talk, because I think
small talk has a reallyimportant part in in connecting

(14:46):
with someone. But so we can talkabout small talk, I'd like to
hear your your opinions on thegood conversations have lots of
doorknobs, and then we can kindof just, yeah. Uh, wrap it up.
Talking about conversations in

general, I want to, I real quick. I kind of want
to i when this will come out,but I want to be sure that we
talk about you not feeling likeyou're good in conversation. But
you cited a very specificexample, which is you not being
good in conversation, possibly,or you not being at a level that
you would like to be at aconversation with patients that

(15:27):
is a very specific, very nichevein of conversation where you
have a tremendous amount ofknowledge, and so you have a
tremendous amount of power overindividuals. And I feel like, I
don't, I want to, like, dissectlike, do you you talking with
your college friends, obviously,is different than you talking
with a patient? Do you feel thatyou're also not good at talking

(15:49):
with your college friends? LikeI want to, I want to dissect why
you said you're not good atconversation. Because this is a
very general statement for youto then provide a very specific
example of when you feel thatyou are not at the level you
would like to be at. Now thatmight come up, but okay, yeah, I
think I will come up because Iwill make it

to just briefly respond to that. I think I'm
spending a lot of time takingwhat we're learning about
conversational skills in schooland trying to apply them, maybe
not apply them, trying to thinkabout every interaction that I
have with people more broadly.
That makes sense. So I'mthinking about conversations

(16:33):
more than than I normally wouldbe.

No that it makes sense what you said, but it
doesn't fulfill my curiosity ofwhat that means. All right,
well, so you're thinking aboutconversations more broadly,
yeah? All right, fine, fine.
We'll get into this. Okay, youwant to, you want to start by
talking about small talk? Yeah,you don't like small talk. About
small talk, I It's, I don't Idon't know if it's I don't like
it. It makes me uncomfortable. Iget nervous. Why? I don't know.

(17:00):
I'm sweating right now, thinkingabout it like, I need you to
understand I am hyper aware ofwhy, like I'm putting myself
into situations. I'm onlytalking about things that I
don't like, passing timechatting with people because it

(17:20):
makes me uncomfortable and Ican't get engaged enough to put
my okay here, here's what it is.
If I am talking about somethingthat I am passionate about, I
turn off the little selfcensored. Be terrified of
yourself. Switch in my head,because I am just I've entered

(17:42):
some sort of flow, right? Youand I are talking about ideas,
abstract things, or just thingsthat I care about. I will chat
all day, every day, I willbecome impassioned. You will
say, Jack, you are yelling, andit's great. I don't even notice
if I am not at that passionatelevel where I'm just freely

(18:02):
speaking, trying to exploresomething with someone. I am so
aware of everything I am sayingthe way that I'm saying it. I
hate that, and I get nervous,and I'm like, oh, this person,
like, doesn't even want to talkwith me. Why are we talking? I'm
getting nervous. And no, like,the weather doesn't satisfy that

(18:22):
unless we're like, you know,complaining about how hot it is,
and I'm like, really miserable.
I'm like, it is so hot. Climatechange is terrible. LA's on
fire. Let's have a conversation.
But no, if it's just like, oh,the weather today, huh? Yeah,
it's cold. Oh yeah. I'm hyperaware of what I'm saying, how
I'm looking I'm like, Oh, thisperson's like, looking at me

(18:45):
like, Oh, my God. Small talkwhile I'm eating. Small talk
while I'm eating a salad is theworst I'd rather, I'd rather
skydive than have conversationwhile eating a salad. Of a small
talk like I just can't.

Do you see a point in small talk? No,

because I don't view it as general genuine. I
don't view it as genuineconnection.

So how do you get to genuine connection, if not
through small talk? Right? Isee, I like to see small talk as
a gate, because I'm not

gonna learn deeper connections

Harry, and I think it's, I think it's Adam
Grant, and you like Adam Grantthat I love that says curiosity
and small talk. What does hesay? He says curiosity and small
talk can reveal surprisingconnections and insights that
open the door to deeperconnection. So I you, you just

(19:49):
said, No, you just said that thewhole like hot outside climate
change, right? Isn't that aisn't that abrupt? And. Abrupt
transition to something deeper,but say you're talking about
something hot, and then moregradually, and as you build
trust in that relationship,isn't that a great way to talk

(20:11):
about the things that you wantto talk about?

I'd like to put a caveat, and maybe this is an
important qualifier. I feel thatas soon as Curiosity has entered
the realm of conversation or therelationship, it is no longer
small talk, because to me, smalltalk is something that happens
to pass time. Small talk is nota way to get to know someone.

(20:37):
Small talk is a way to make anelevator ride a little like less
like a little easier, becausepeople don't like silence.

But is there no value in those conversations,
just in case somethinginteresting gets brought

up? Yeah, I'm not, but I'm I wouldn't classify that
as small talk or somethinginteresting gets brought up,
then what I would classify Smalltalk is something that is
meaningless between two people,where you're just trying to pass
the time, but

if you enter that conversation with curiosity,
then those meaningless things,those seemingly meaningless
things, might have meaning.
There's a reason. Sure, talkingabout something,

how often? No, there's not. There's not always
a reason people are talkingabout something so so often we
just say,

I just say, I just say, most of the time,

but I see I disagree with you. I think it's
rare. I think a genuineconversation is rarer than that.
You think? I think so often thewords are hollow, more hollow.
Small Talk, to me again, is likea waste. It's, it's talk you
have while you're waiting foryour prom with their father,

(21:55):
while you're waiting for theirprom date to come down the
steps. It's and it's not theconversation where he, like,
looks at you and it's like, ifyou, if you wrong, my, you know,
my son or daughter, I will killyou. It's, it's like, Oh, yeah.
Like, so you know, what do youwant to major in in college?
Like,

like, I would, I would say that that has an
extreme value view. That is,that is deeper value, right? And
it's, it's establishing arelationship. It's the very
first connection that you havewith someone. And it, I think
good small talk like that canmake people feel valued and sort

(22:38):
of break the ice for deeperconversations. So like, what are
you majoring in? Some people,what are you majoring in, right?
That could be considered a smalltalk question. But behind that
question, there are so many, somany gateways of, why, why do
you want to major in that? Whatis your interest in that? And

(23:00):
that's a deeper conversation tobe had. From small talk.

You're right. I should relent. Or I should say,
I should concede that you arecorrect, that that can be the
avenue for more. I will say,some people I hate introversion,
extroversion, because, again,that is the spectrum. And I
think a lot of people like over,under, use, whatever, but some

(23:26):
people don't like being askedthat question. And I will say,
so, you know, like, so let'sfollow our example, right? So a
parent is grilling a perspectivedate on for their for their
child, and they say, What's yourmajor? Take my example, right?
I'm about to say English major.
And then immediately, what canhappen in that? It

can go two ways.
They can be really interested inthat, or think you don't know
what you want to do with

your life exactly.
So when does that conversationbecome meaningful? Is if you
explore some of those you know,oh, that's really cool. That is
not necessarily exploringsomething, not asking, but like,
also them saying, what are yougoing to do with that? Those
attacking you, then you're goingon the defensive. So I wouldn't

(24:20):
say so, but if you're going onthe defensive, that is the
conversation developing intolike a deeper thing, into a
deeper conversation, but notnecessarily fruitful or helpful
to either party. So I think likewe're now creating kind of

(24:46):
barriers, of like, if it stayssmall talk, if they just say,
oh, cool, then I feel like thatconversation of like, Hey, what
are you majoring in? Isworthless. Because. Then it's
like, okay, cool. And then it'sdone, yeah. And then if you go,
if you force them into a placewhere they don't want to go, or

(25:06):
where they're not comfortable,also not a good conversation.

But you've still learned something.

You've not, if you not, if you stick to small talk,

Unknown (25:26):
but I

guess you've learned, like a fact, this is
interesting to me. I feel likewe're both in I feel like we're
both engaging with thepossibility that we are wrong,
but also that this is reallycomplicated.

I think conversations are complicated,
and we've all left conversationswhere you feel really good, and
we've all left conversationswhere you feel really bad, and I
think trying to figure out whatmakes you feel good and what
makes you feel bad in aconversation is really hard, and
that's what I found over thepast couple weeks, months,

(26:10):
pinpointing man That felt greatwith that person. What was that?
It was so many things, but Ithink of small talk as a really
good way to gage someone'senergy, mood or interests, as a
way to pursue furtherconversation or stop if, if you

(26:35):
are trying to talk to someone,and Maybe you find someone
interesting, and you approachthem with, you know, some small
talky question, maybe commentingon the weather, their response
is, is a measure of where theyare in that moment. Should you

(26:57):
further pursue, or should younot further pursue? Say they
turn to you, turn toward you,and greet you with a smile and
say, Yeah, it's really hotoutside, you know, but the
sunshine is great. Then youfurther pursue. You can have a
conversation about that, but ifthey just say, No, you've
learned that they don't want tobe they don't want to be

(27:19):
involved in a conversation rightnow. So I find that to be
valuable, right?

Yeah, I mean, what you just said for sure,

so I don't know.
I think these small, briefinteractions that we have with
people, they serve a biggerpurpose than just a superficial
Damn. It's hot out or cold, youknow. Okay, this was great,
actually, yeah, this was handledfrom yesterday. So I was walking

(27:55):
Woody in the park, and I saw aguy in the dog park walking his
dog. I'd met him before. Icommented on how cold it was
because it was actually freezingcold outside. It was one degree
or whatever. And he said, Yeah,it's cold, but this is my first
winter. I was like, Oh, whereare you from? Turns out he's

(28:17):
from California. This is hisfirst proper winter, so he's not
bothered or upset by the cold.
He's actually really happy thatit's cold, because it's cold and
sunny and he can be outside withhis partner and his dog, and
they were throwing a Frisbee,having a great time, and like
that led to a conversation. Icommented on his dog's jacket.
Said, I love your dog's jacket.
And he said, it's it's fromGoodwill. It's a toddler size

(28:40):
six. Did you know thatchildren's clothes come in age
sizes? And I was like, Iactually had no idea. I don't
know how kids work. So we had,we the me commenting on how cold
it was led us to a conversation.
I now know where he's from. Inow know this is his first
winter, and I now know thatchildren's sizes come based on

(29:01):
how old they are,

this is so interesting to me, because I
think we are getting not likewe're talking about how we
communicate. I would neverengage with that person. Why
not? But I would go for a walk,and I would observe how they

(29:25):
interacted, say, with theirpartner, or how they were they
were like with a dog. And Iwould ask questions, and I would
say, Okay. And I might, youknow, write a poem about it, if
I thought it was a pretty, youknow, if it was a pretty scene.
And to me, I would say, okay,so, you know, what is their
dynamic like? Why are they outhere in the cold throwing a
Frisbee so joy, like, and yeah,to me, like, that's very

(29:48):
beautiful. It would be like, Oh,to a happy couple in the snow,
right? That's so interesting.
And I would love to do all ofthat without the conversation.
You. You feel that you gained atremendous amount by talking to
that person, and I, by nottalking to them, would not feel
like I missed out on anything.

(30:10):
And that is interesting. Aren't

you interested in No, because you just want to
make your own story for him. Idon't know, because

some there's a part of me that's like their
story is not really my business.
So I would observe and askingmyself questions. I would be
very I would say I would befocused on, like, my perception
of them through my own eyes. Butlike, I wouldn't want to do it
in like, a selfish way, like I'mlike, like, I would project
things on that, but I would askthe question, like, why are they

(30:38):
happy, and how does that impactme? And, like, should I be happy
right now? Like, how do I findjoy in the snow day? But I would
be. I'm also the happy personoutside of the snow. So, like,
obviously not. That's ahypothetical. But yeah, to me.
Like, he like talking to them. Idon't, I don't know that
wouldn't necessarily. Like, Idon't seek out human interaction

(30:59):
all the time. I and I know youdo, and maybe so when you were
initially talking about smalltalk, absolutely I can see
benefit. You know, you're,you're in, I've been there,
right? Like I've, you know,you're in a patient's room. How
are they feeling today? Youcan't get into, you know, hey,

(31:20):
you know your kid, you know, weran some tests your kids aren't
doing well because you're, youknow, if you're in an ICU,
whatever, right, whatevermedical thing is going on, which
you

don't want to talk about, no, I don't want to
talk

about the medical stuff. But I can understand
small talks, importance,engaging, how that person is
feeling. Yeah, and I wouldn'tsay that I don't use small talk
if I have to have an awkwardconversation with someone at
work or I am trying to probe.
Small Talk in that sense, is atool I can understand that I was

(31:55):
wrong to blindly say that I hatesmall talk. But I would not say
that I seek to use small talk inall interactions, because, to
me, yes, you found out aboutsomeone and meeting them and
knowing that is a wonderfulthing, right? Connect humans.

(32:16):
Connecting is beautiful in mostsenses, however, I don't know if
I would still consider thatsmall talk like, I don't know if
I would consider that somethinglike tremendous gained from this
amount of small talk, because Ithink, like, the stress it would

(32:37):
have caused me to, like, saysomething to them would be
overwhelming, like, and I'd comeout of that interaction thinking
I sounded like an idiot, like,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
you know, like, all that stuff.
So, yeah, no, I don't know. It'sa very personal thing. You are
so open and willing to engagewith people, don't you think
that in this conversational way?

I mean, it's, it's interesting how I feel like
a lot of your thoughts involvethe human experience.

Yeah.

Do you think it would benefit you to be more
openly engaging with thosearound you to think about the
human experience. Would thatchange your perspective? I mean,

obviously it would change my perspective. Like,
everything you do changes yourperspective. I mean, if you want
my like, honest opinion, like,if I were playing devil's
advocate with you, I would saythat most people lie and that
it's more honest to observequietly than it is to have a
conversation and see how theyperceive themselves, which is

(33:49):
what you're getting from that.

Okay? Good devil's advocate.

Yeah, it's like, what do you want out of the
interaction? You know what Imean. Like, do I feel like I
know people after that? No, do Ifeel like I know that that
version of them in thatmillisecond from my own
perspective? Sure, by watching,okay,

how how? Then have you met the closest your
closest friends?

Oh, my God, I mean my best friends in college?
Yeah, that like I have that. Ijust officiated her wedding.
This is so funny. She and I weretalking, and she said that she
hung out with me because shefelt bad for me because I was
sitting alone. So I have met myclosest friends because they're
people like you who come up tome and force me to have a

(34:56):
conversation.

So someone who I.
What did she say to you first?

Oh, my God, I don't know. She just

because she certainly didn't start talking
about climate change. No,

I think she just like sat down with me. She
actually, Ashley is aninteresting person, because I
think we were in a class wherewe were having big conversations
together, so she might have justcontinued a conversation from
class, which was, like, bigconversations, like, you know,
like, how is the US healthcaresystem, you know, what is
privatized industry, all thatstuff. So that might have

(35:33):
helped.

So let's take it to the article. Now, let's talk
about the article. Yeah, let'sgo to the article. It titled
good conversations. Have lots ofdoorknobs. Do you think what
Ashley did in that moment?
Provided a doorknob to you. Shegave you a doorknob to further
engage or shut the door.

Yeah? I mean, obviously she was a

the article talks about being givers, which is
what those who ask questions ortakers, and takers are those who
share stories. Do you think thatyour role as a giver or taker
changes depending on who you'reinteracting with.

Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like it has to because,and I feel like it it, I think
your role as a giver or a takernot only changes on who you're
interacting with, but itprobably changes as the
conversation evolves how you arefeeling that day, what is going
on in your life, and it couldchange throughout, like an

(36:47):
infinite amount of times,throughout, even, like the same
millisecond of conversation.

I think you and I change, whether we're givers or
takers, even in this podcast, Ithink it's,

I think definitely in this podcast, we do.

But you had said something interesting over text,
and I don't remember exactlywhat it was about this article.
So could you share that?

Yeah, I don't know what I said, but I will pull it
up. They said something in thearticle that I thought was
interesting, where they said, alot of people think that the
best conversation is waiting forsomeone to finish talking and
then responding, but peopleactually like it better if you
are responding quickly withinmilliseconds, like this kind of

(37:36):
rapid fire approach. And thatgot me thinking of this kind of,
what about people who listenvery intently, like better than
you and I like we all knowpeople who are very silent after
you say something for longperiods of time, and that is
uncomfortable, but that is such,that is such an essential I feel

(37:59):
like an important part ofconversation that I feel. I felt
like the article focused a loton talking, asking questions,
but they didn't mentionlistening as a way of propelling
that conversation or digestingthe information that you're
being told. I don't know how youfelt about that.

I don't I don't know what role I think
listening, yes, just asimportant as talking, if not
more, especially like in myrole, people would

say it's more Yeah,

but you also have to drive. The cons a
conversation needs a driver justas much as it needs two

drivers. I think that was what the article was,
was getting at that, not to lookat it as a conversation needs a
driver, but it needs two partiesin tandem, working together to
advance something that itrequires a good conversation,

(39:18):
right? Because a lot of thearticle talks about how givers
get angry that takers never giveback. It's like, oh, I just
asked you 300 questions. Youdidn't even ask me how my day
was. And takers are like, Oh,they love listening to me talk.
But I think a good conversationrequires is almost like rowing,

(39:41):
maybe not even a driver. It'slike two parties in tandem
working together towards a goal,which is exploration, which is
that idea of like climbing awall. You know, it's like taking
two different people and tryingand using, you know, both of
them, using. Their talents andgiving back, which means handing

(40:03):
off the baton. Here, you drive,here I'll drive.

And I think, I think it comes down to self
awareness in conversation,right? Yeah, and so say you, how
do I want to say this? I don'tknow. How do you reach that

(40:32):
balance? How do you reach thatbalance of, I'll drive this for
a little bit, and then you drivethis, or I'll lead, and then you
can, I'll take and then youtake, I

don't think you can reach a perfect balance. I
think what you have to do isadapt organically, and maybe not
honestly, but definitely. Like,I think it I think you're right.
Like, I think it takes selfawareness, and I don't think you
need to take of it as, like,perfect balance, right? Like, I
don't think the scales need tobe equal, but I feel like both

(41:03):
parties need to be heard andunderstood. So like making sure
that you are self correcting, tomake sure that you are allowing
yourself to feel heard, and thatyou are being heard and again,
hearing the other personallowing them to talk. What do

(41:23):
you I mean? What do you thinkabout that? Do you think every
conversation needs to be 5050,

no, I don't, but I don't know. This is where I
get stuck in analyzingconversations that Okay, so,

so now, now we you and I have never talked about
you having conversations. Whatin your med school career has
made you start really thinkingabout how you have conversations
and how you talk with people?

Yeah, we can visit that. I We have to. No, we
have a we have a clinical skillsclass where you interview sort
of standardized patients thatcome in with some prescribed
chief concern. And my goal ofevery single interaction is to

(42:16):
connect with the patient. Andit's hard, dude, it is so hard.
And we'll kind of, I'm gonnadiscount the cognitive load of
thinking like I need to get allof this information from the
patient, but my real ultimategoal is connect with the
patient. So forget about takingthe history in talking about

(42:39):
this. You know, I do really tryand focus on getting all the
components

of the med boards are listening. Harry does care
about taking

your goods. I do.
I really do. But I think thesocial history, for me, is one
of the most important parts oftaking a history, rather than
like the history of what theypresent with anyway, my goal is
to have every patient feelinglike I care about them, and
feeling like I'm there for them,and trying inviting them into

(43:08):
the care team so that they feelthat they're in charge of their
care, and we're all just thereto support them. So I try to
foster that in in every singleinteraction. So that's that's
really why I started thinkingabout conversations. How can I
do that with everyone that thatI'm seeing, whether they're

(43:32):
standardized patient, an actoror a real patient, and it's
really challenging. There was astandardized patient that we
had, and he was experiencinghousing instability, and my goal
was to try and connect with themand try and, you know, invite

(43:54):
them into their care, feelsupported by the system and
connect them to resources, andreally, all they were interested
in was getting their upperrespiratory infection fixed. And
I don't know I left thatinteraction thinking, this is
really challenging. It's reallychallenging to connect with

(44:16):
someone who doesn't necessarilywant to be connected with, or
didn't seemingly want to beconnected with, but I pulled out
all of the stops that I could.
Something that I like to do inmy my interviews is I get their
name, get their date of birth,get why they came in, and then I

(44:39):
say, before we get into that,I'd like to get to know you as a
person, so that I can understandyour your situation in a broader
context. So tell me about you,and then I like when people tell
me about them, because asthey're giving me the history,
then I can say that must bechallenging, because you like X,
Y or Z, you know. Say someone'sa chef, and they come in and

(45:01):
they say they're a chef and theyhave gi discomfort. It's really
important to know right off thebat that this gi discomfort is
affecting their life more thanjust they have to use the
bathroom, you know? So I try andunderstand, I try to get a

(45:21):
broader understanding of theperson from the second they walk
in before we medicalize things.
And I like doing that, and itfeels good for me. I don't I
don't know if that's what Ishould be doing, but that's what
I like to do. But when peopledon't want that, it kind of
throws you off. Yeah. So then Ithink about, how can I if that
doesn't happen in the firstcouple minutes of the

(45:48):
interaction, how can I do thatthroughout the rest of the
interaction? I don't know. It'shard.

That sounds really hard. This sounds really
interesting, especially becauseit does have to do with what we
were talking about. How just youand I similar backgrounds,
experience every conversationdifferently, and people go and I
feel like you know you'remeeting people at their most

(46:20):
vulnerable, and I cannot imaginewhat that is like, because,
because I've been on the otherend of it, and I know how ill at
ease I am to have to try to bethe person to put me at ease and
and have you know so manyvariations of that a day sounds
terrifying and almostimpossible. I'm so interested in

(46:44):
the person that you struggled toso you said this was a stage
patient, so it was an actor,yeah, with like, a set script,
okay? Because I'd be curious,but my brain goes okay. So they
don't want to connect with you.
They want their unhoused hasthis, like anyone in the system
ever cared about them? Like,obviously that would be very
hard to, like, be mistreated byinstitutions, and then have some

(47:07):
institutionalist, like, someyoung guy just being like, Hey,
do you skateboard? Like,obviously you didn't say that.
But, like, the idea, you know,and that's really interesting to
me, and hard, oh, God, thatsounds awful.

And to be frank, I screwed up in the
conversation. I totally messedit up.

He how? So what did you do? There was

a point in the in the conversation where the
patient had said they wereunhoused. They came in with a
bag full of stuff. So initiallyyou knew something was atypical
with the patient, like they had,they had a plastic bag with
belongings in it. But then atsome point they said that they

(47:56):
were unhoused. And initially,this was my gut reaction, and I
said, I'm sorry. That can bechallenging. Thank you for
sharing, and I shouldn't havesaid, I'm sorry I I don't think
that that was the rightresponse. I think what I have

(48:20):
since learned that I should havedone was probably general,
generalize, and not have myfeelings attached to that,
because I don't know how theyfeel about that. Maybe they're
okay with with their situation,and they're and they're quite
happy, and it's, it's wrong ofme to impose my feelings and
push my feelings there. But whatI should have said is that can

(48:43):
be challenging for a lot ofpeople. How are you handling
that?

Isn't that doing the same thing? I think I
understand that you're notprojecting pity. But you know,
even saying that that like I'mnot. I would also probably mess
up in the same way that you did.
I would probably put my foot inmy I don't think you did that. I
mean, I'm sorry, this mundane,but I would probably put my foot

(49:09):
in my mouth worse. I'm justcurious your thoughts on isn't

that doing the same? I don't know. I don't
know, but I think generalizingit makes the patient feel more
comfortable in the room. You'rekind of putting it interesting

to me. You say generalizing something makes
someone feel more comfortable,but I feel like intuitively, it
would make them feel less of anindividual, like less of a
person.

It's offering a, uh, it's giving them a door knob
to talk about their situation ornot talk about their situation.
Close the door, right? So saygeneralizing, yeah, right. It's,
it's not, I don't have it. I'mnot supposed. Have any opinions
on that, right? I'm supposed tosay that can be challenging for

(50:04):
a lot of people, and then theycan take that and say, Yes, I'd
like to discuss this more. Or,actually, it has been really
hard. Or no, I'm doing allright. Thank you. Though, you
know they can choose, yeah, theycan choose to open that door,

that you should extend a doorknob. I think that
that's wonderful, and I thinkthat that's a great way of
looking at it right, likeallowing them to control what
they want to share, what theydon't want to share. But also, I
feel like I don't I'm not in medschool. I'm barely in med
school. The idea, but the ideaof this, we're talking about

(50:40):
someone being unhoused, and howwe shouldn't project our
opinions upon of being unhoused.
But I don't, I am hesitant tosay that, you know, like they
like being unhoused people,without people not having homes

(51:02):
is a fundamental injustice.
Yeah, they could be happy withthat, yes, but I don't. I feel
like, as people, we need toacknowledge that. I feel like
that that is outrageous to belike, well, I can't say, you
know, my opinions on the housingcrisis in so and so city. I'll

(51:24):
just you know, like, I don'tthink you need to project your
views out there, but to say thatlike you can have opinions on
that, I think is outrageous. Ifthey had opened, if they had
opened the door and said it isso so if they had done exactly
what you said, it is so hard forme. I am every day is hard, and

(51:47):
I don't know what I'm going todo tomorrow. Then you further
pursue the conversation. Thenyou say, I'm sorry. Then say,

thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry that.
Yeah, no, I think the initial, Ithink your gut reaction
apologizing is projecting pitywhen they may not want it, yeah,
oh, sure if, if they say that,it's been really challenging,
and, you know, they struggledaily, yeah, say, I'm so sorry
you're dealing with that, thatthat's really hard. And then you

(52:15):
connect them to resources andmake them feel supported, and
you do everything in your powerto help them through that
situation. You You have toaccompany them through that. But
that's because you've handedthat you've given that doorknob
of you've given the door. Do youwant to talk about it? Do not

(52:36):
want to talk about it. And Ithink that's kind of how you
navigate it. I don't. And you'resaying, I'm incredibly

imperful. I think that that's a really good point,
because it's like you're saying,hand them an objective door knob
where they get to steer. Yeah,and you're saying, I'm sorry,
add subjectivity to that beforesubjectivity is meant to be
introduced to the conversation.

Yes, subjectivity can come later, after you've
gotcha offered them theopportunity to speak on their
experience. And is that theright way to do it? I have no
idea, but that that's what feelsright to me right now. But I'm
open to learning it's all thetime

that's interesting. I i I have dealt
with a lot of people recentlynot dealt with I have been I
have had the privilege tointeract with people that I
love, that have sadly beengrieving through death of loved
ones or friends or in any way.
And this experience has made methink about how I hand or how I

(53:41):
interact with people who aregrieving. I have found I'm sorry
to be both powerful andinefficient. How I have found,
how are you to be mind numbinglyannoying and unhelpful. It's

(54:01):
like, how are you obviously notgood, like we're at a funeral
home, but the challenges ofinteracting with that, I have
found extending a doorknob toalso be extending silence. Let
me explain. I have found sayinga declarative statement, I love

(54:32):
you, I will sit with you andallowing the doorknob that I
extend to be silenced betweentwo people and allow them to
fill that has been aninteresting experience for me.
Obviously, you have aprerogative when you're in a
when you're trying to take ahistory and things, yeah,

(54:54):
dynamic, very interesting to me,like you're it's exactly the
same that you're talking. Aboutwhere, whatever they want to
talk about, I will allow them tosteer that ship. But now
thinking about the article,allowing them to steer a
conversational ship is also aburden.

Yeah.

Oh, isn't that so interesting? I just realized
that like allowing someone tosteer conversational ship is a
burden that's hard to thinkabout what you're going to talk
about next.

And I, I think that's why, I think that's why
giving the doorknob as a way forentry or exit is so powerful.
Yeah, right, because they don't,if you give them that, then they

(55:48):
have the power to shut up, to toexplore or not. And I think
that, in a way, we can circleback to small talk. Even small
talk, you're gaging someone'scapacity to engage at that very

(56:11):
moment. Yeah, so that feels,that feels like the right thing
to do?

Yeah, and I would say to go back to our
conversation on Small Talk,having thought about it,
marinated on a little bit, Iwould say small talk lies in
intention. And if you were goingin with honest intentions, to
me, that is opening the door toa conversation and not a way of
passing time.

Yeah, and really that positive intention can be
one sided. Yeah, you can. Youhave the ability, and you have
the power to enter everyconversation that you have with
curiosity and with the intent ofgetting to know someone better.

But that also doesn't mean starting or talking
to every single person, orstarting every you know, like
starting a millionconversations. It can be
purposeful, but it could meanconversation mean

starting a million companies Exactly.

It's so personal.
I'm not gonna go out and start amillion conversations. You might
that's not my thing. I don'twanna do that. But

as long as we both approach those
conversations with curiosity andintention, then I think
something can be this isactually,

since it is election day and since Harry
now, I really want you toinclude my joke at the
beginning. I do want to openthis up that one thing that I
have that I guess, if I didn'tmake any new year's resolutions,
but if no, because they're done,we've talked about this before.
We I hate them. Yeah, I know, Iknow. I'm just saying, if I were

(58:05):
to make one, it would be to bemore curious. And Ezra Klein,
who has a successful podcast,when Trump won the election, he
said, Now is not the time toshut down. Now is not the time
to disengage. Now is the time tobe curious. And he challenged
his listeners to go out and becurious about the reality about

(58:29):
people who don't think like us,about like meaning, like the
royal us, like showing one likea personal us, and to be curious
about all of those things. And Ithink that is something that
I've tried to bring into a lotof conversations, even with
people who I know I'm gonna hatethe conversation. Yeah,

I love that.

I love that. But you do that, you do that
already. You you listen verycarefully and you care. It's
very evident talking to

I care dude, more than I know, more than I think
I'd like to want to, yeah, yeah.

Oh, my God, you are so you care so much in a one
on one conversation, yeah,absolutely you do.

I just want to make, I just want to make the
people that I interact with feelgood, feel supported, feel like
their care.

You want them to feel like they are the only
person you have ever caredabout.

I try. It's hard.
It's hard. You I

know, but

I don't know.
People don't

know that about you. You put on a little shell
sometimes,

um,

your bros probably don't know that about you, but
it's very evident.

Thank you. Well, thank you, Jack for this
conversation. Thank youconversations. This

was a weird one, because I don't think we were.
Answering any questions. And Idon't think we were just
exploring a topic that wasscary.

Harry Weidner (01:00:05):
It I think conversations are a scary topic.
Oh my god,

Jack Weidner (01:00:09):
yeah, that was they're crazy. So I will wrap it
up. Just before you

wrap it up. I mean, there's so much we could
have talked about here. We couldhave talked about technology and
conversations. I think

we should continue talking about conversations.
Yeah, because there's so much tosay, let's

keep talking about talking.

Let's keep talking about talking. We could get
someone, if anyone wants, tocome on the podcast and talk
about talking with Harry and Iemail us at
artangelminds@gmail.com Ihaven't checked the email in a
while, so I will do that. Alsoif you or you can text us, if
you have our numbers, if youhave any thoughts or

(01:00:53):
recommendations for things forus to read or watch or think
about, or topics from futureepisodes, also email us or text
us. We so appreciate youjoining. I think this will be a
semi weekly, semi monthly thing.
I don't know. We'll do our best.
We're gonna try. Thank you forlistening, thank you for hanging

(01:01:14):
out, and we'll see you next timeto see how this mess continues
to unravel. All right, that'scrazy.

That was good.
You.

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