February 17, 2025 • 56 mins
Hey, Tangled Minds!
In light of everything going on in the world, we figured everyone could use a little fun and joy. Today, Harry and I discuss failure. Past, present, and future. Personal, professional, familial. Ranging from funny to catastrophic. We try to end on a fun note, which is crazy because— *ring ring* what? Uh huh…. Uh huh… Oh, you don’t say. Well, I didn’t notice. Oh! Sorry! *hangs up phone* I’ve just been told this is all depressing. Whoops!
Anyway, if you have any thoughts on today’s episode, email us at ourtangledminds@gmail.com or text us! And hey! We meant it when I said you’re not alone right now.
Link to science funding stuff:
Email us at ourtangledminds@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harry Weidner (00:05):
Alright. Welcome back to our tangled minds.
Welcome to
Jack Weidner (00:09):
our tangled minds.
I'm Harry Weidner, I'm Jackbagnatto,
Harry Weidner (00:14):
and we're back with another week
of everyone's favorite podcast.
Are tangled minds. What's goingon with you? Jack,
Jack Weidner (00:24):
nothing. So there's a lot going on with me,
but like, I mean, the problemis, I don't know the work. Okay,
this is what I was like, Theworld is crazy and conventional
institutions would like us tocontinue to speak about the
(00:48):
world as if it is not insane.
And if one person looks at meand says, the one certainty in
life is change again, like theyare, like Gandalf from Lord of
the Rings. I will do somethingthat I shouldn't say on the
podcast. Yeah, it's
Harry Weidner (01:08):
hard to feel right now, like this is normal.
Jack Weidner (01:13):
Everyone's just talking about how this is like,
this is fun, where they're like,changing, like, their juice
berry mix up, and they're like,I tried raspberries instead of
strawberries, and it was justthe right amount of zing. And
you're like, shut up. Like, thisis crazy. Like, people are
putting cocaine in theirsmoothies. Like this, isn't you?
Like, getting a more tartsmoothie. This is cocaine in the
(01:34):
smoothie
Harry Weidner (01:35):
in a way, in a way, like, you almost have to
laugh. And I think we're infortunate positions to laugh.
Jack Weidner (01:43):
You're incredibly privileged to be able to laugh
about some of the things thatare happening.
Harry Weidner (01:48):
So, you know, the other thing the other day, I was
laughing. I was like, so we'regonna buy we're gonna buy Gaza.
Jack Weidner (01:57):
Some of it's funny, like, that is from who
saying, Well, that and that youwrite, yeah, who you write the
check to? You know, technically,it's under Israel,
Harry Weidner (02:06):
yeah? But, like, you know, buy it.
Jack Weidner (02:10):
What you think the people there would see any of
the money? Anyways? No, no. It'sso
Harry Weidner (02:15):
bizarre. It's so bizarre. And did you see it's a
crazy maps, like on Google Maps,it's now officially the Gulf of
America. Yeah, of course. Why?
Like,
Jack Weidner (02:25):
that's been weird.
They he, he banned an APreporter from coming into the
White House press room becausethey didn't legal. They didn't
change the name. They didn't sayaccording with their according
with their standards. Crazy.
Harry Weidner (02:43):
Yeah, absolutely crazy. It's like I,
Jack Weidner (02:48):
because we have the smallest of public
platforms, what keeps me up atnight is like I feel not like I
have to not not like I am worthyof saying something, but that it
feels disingenuous to notaddress what is happening and
(03:08):
that people's lives are beinguprooted in unprecedented and
terrifying ways. But also,I feel like we are the wrong
people at this moment and pointin time to like two white guys
of the podcast, like, what thehell yeah, sure. Can we it's
nothing. We shouldn't but it'sjust like the amount of ripple,
(03:28):
the ripple effect of everythingthat's going on, and just like
sitting with other people feelsvery important. So Harry and I
won't say anything, but we willsit with you and listen and just
be present with you through theinsanity that is happening right
(03:52):
now.
Harry Weidner (03:57):
And we'll try and still come out with regular
podcast episodes.
Jack Weidner (04:01):
Yeah, sorry. So what's new with you?
Harry Weidner (04:06):
Dude? Nothing.
Nothing. Past couple weeks havebeen stressful, but we've made
it through. And I you know,we'll talk a little bit about it
later. But yeah, it's hard.
Things are things are hard.
Things are hard. Hey, questionoutside of the world, but what's
up?
Jack Weidner (04:24):
How is the funding freeze for, like, scientific
research affecting you? Is it?
Have you guys talked about this?
Well, so
Harry Weidner (04:33):
it was going to, but then it was blocked. We have
our dean is really great. Yeah,it was, it was blocked. And as
of now, things are okay. Okay,that's good. So I know that the
Dean of the School of Medicinewas in DC, like communicating
(04:53):
with lawmakers and, you know,leveraging his connections and
talking about how it actually.
Really impact the lives ofmillions of people. He's a great
guy. No,
Jack Weidner (05:06):
I'm sure that that's wonderful. I think my
problem with your statement isthat that implies that Congress
has a part in what's going onright now, and Congress hasn't
done a thing like this is comingfrom a different branch of
government. Like, I'm glad he's,like, rubbing elbows with
congressmen, but like,congressmen have been a little
quiet,
Harry Weidner (05:26):
I know, but what other what other avenues do we
have? None.
Jack Weidner (05:30):
That's the problem. I think, I think that's
the I think that's the issue.
But we'd about to get into that.
I just, yeah, well, I mean, Iwould like to say to video,
good, oh go ahead. No, you goahead. I was just gonna say I
watched a YouTube video thismorning about if you're
listening to this podcast, Iassume you relatively like to
(05:50):
nerd out about specific things.
And it was just about how thisfunding freeze for the sciences
dramatically trickles down intoYouTube, even like scientific
YouTube channels and scientificeducation outreach. And there
are YouTube channels that aregoing to that would be severely
affected by this, like CrashCourse and minute earth and all
(06:12):
of their different channels andSciShow and things like that. So
we'll link that in thedescription. And if you would
like to start joining, if youare so capable of joining, like
Patreon or things like that, tosupport the scientific community
and support scientific outreach,I feel like this will be a
really important you should betalking about the science. I
shouldn't be, and I'm sorry thatI'm doing this. I just I feel
(06:35):
that it's an important messageto especially like, with today's
day and age, of like, howinformation is getting to the
public, important things tosupport,
Harry Weidner (06:48):
yeah, my dude, I don't know, like, it's so
challenging for me when thingsare you know, the world is
changing so much. And my roleright now as a medical student
like that really is my, myprimary role. And outside of
that role, how much time existsto to do anything else? Yeah,
(07:14):
that's that's hard. How do Istay updated? That's a
challenge. How do I advocatethat's a challenge. I'm really
excited about this new thingthat I'll be starting as a
patient navigator that will bereally great. I think it's in
the free clinic here, so I willhopefully be able to help the
people who get care at the freeclinic navigate not only the
(07:38):
complex healthcare system, butalso the complex changes that
are happening around them and incommunity, because there are a
lot of undocumented folk inDenver. So I think I will learn
a lot from the patients, andI'll learn a lot about the
system and what people are goingthrough. So I'm actually, like
(07:59):
excited about that that'sstarting up here a couple weeks.
Jack Weidner (08:02):
That's awesome.
I'm really proud of you. Do youwant to tell people what exactly
that role is and what your roleis in the hospital?
Harry Weidner (08:09):
Yeah. So it's not in the hospital. We have a we
have a free clinic called thedawn clinic, and a patient
navigator there. Sort of it's,it's not a social worker role,
but it's social worker adjacent,just being there for the
patient, answering any questionsthey have about connections to
care, maybe following throughwith primary care appointments
(08:34):
or emailing different providersand saying like, Oh, this
patient, and Being just being apatient advocate and helping
them navigate how complex it canbe to get from primary care or a
free clinic to a specialist whenyou need or any of the resources
that are available, like SNAPand Medicaid, And I'm not even
(09:01):
sure what resources areavailable. So I'm on. I'm really
excited to learn myself. I'mexcited to learn what resources
we have for patients. Generally,in the
Jack Weidner (09:13):
I was gonna say it sounds like the greater Denver,
you'll get to learn a lot aswell, which is not why we help
people. We don't help people tohelp ourselves, but it is a
result of,
Harry Weidner (09:21):
well, yeah, in me learning, then I can, you'll be
able to help more people. Yeah,I can carry those things with me
through the rest of my life,just to know what resources are
available to people and ifindividuals might benefit from
resources connecting with themefficiently and effectively.
Yeah. So that that that is whatI have done to hopefully make
(09:46):
myself feel better about I mean,most of my day I just sit in a
classroom and that doesn't feelgood, especially now, when I
just want to be doing things andI know like i. That's my job
right now, and ultimately itwill help people, but it feels
really useless right now. Yeah.
And how do you how do yougrapple with that? I have no
(10:13):
idea. I
Jack Weidner (10:17):
think what's interesting is, and this is not
going to be backed up byscience. It's a little bit
backed up in philosophy. Butlike, what I have noticed is
that America constantly puts aburden with whatever you know,
abstract concept is, onto theindividual. So it's like, you
(10:39):
know, take environmentalism, forexample, it's like, okay, what
are you, you know, why are youhaving a plastic straw? Like,
don't do that. Like, you need tonot have plastic straws. You
need to be better about yourplastic bag use. You need to
bring Canvas totes around. Ormindfulness. You need to start
doing meditation. You need to,like, figure out how to cope
(11:00):
with the culture you need tothere's just such a heavy burden
placed on like, it's just, youknow, it's very nice, because
it's like, almost this idea of,like, A Bug's Life, where it's
like, united, we can, like,overcome all of this stuff. And
what is not talked about is thatsystemically, they are not
changing these institutions thathave the greatest power to
(11:23):
change things. So like, we, andI think we are ingrained in this
idea that, like, I need to do mypart. I need to do that. And I'm
not saying that that's notimportant. But also, like, there
is an incredible amount ofstress on the individual, either
they blame themselves, you know,for mindfulness, right? Like,
(11:45):
why am I not happy in thisworld? Why? What am I doing
wrong? Why am I not happy in mycorporate job? Why can't I find
time to meditate for 60,000hours a day when I'm also
working 20 hours overtime,instead of saying, like, Why
does my company require me to beso stressed and work 20 hours of
overtime? Like, that's notthere. So there's a level of
(12:07):
stress, and I feel like a levelof blame that people put on
themselves just being ingrainedin that, like, you being like,
you know, like, how you askingyourself as a medical student.
Because I think the idea is thatthe sustaining democracy has now
trickled out and been like,like, how, how are you
sustaining democracy as anindividual? And like, you know,
(12:33):
like the freaking straw thing,like an executive order was just
signed banning paper straws. Andit's like the little individual
things that we could do to helpare just like being pulled out
of our fingers. And it's like,how do I help democracy? What
can I do? This like, incrediblyabstract, impossible to define
concept, like, what could we asindividuals do to help
(12:54):
democracy? And it's so it'sdisheartening. It is angering.
It is annoying to me that wehave taken that approach, this
individualistic approach, like Idon't even feel like it's like
local communities anymore, likeI really feel like it's just
like you need to know what todo. And I'm not saying that
(13:14):
individuals, like everyone,should do their part, and that's
so important, and that's soamazing that people, and there
are so many incredible peoplethat are changing the world and
doing it on an individual scale.
But just the idea in thiscountry that everything is on
the individual and it's likewe're not going to hold X, Y, Z
accountable, is insane to me.
(13:37):
Like you're a medical student,you shouldn't necessarily, like
you should be engaged in theworld, but maybe you shouldn't
feel the guilt of the idea ofdemocracy slipping through
fingers in this country, like,like slipping through Uncle
Sam's fingers like sand. That'sinsane. Ty, that was a long
(13:58):
rant. I just, I, don't know whatto do anymore.
Harry Weidner (14:04):
I don't think anyone knows what to do. I don't
know if, yeah, I have thisMasters in Public Health. But
what can I do with that? When atthe from the very top, from the
structural level, everything ischanging. I spent last Thursday
(14:25):
so upset about USAID. It's likethere are millions of people
around the world that are gonnadie because the world's richest
man is taking away any access tosecure food that they have that
doesn't make any sense? No, no,so I don't know,
Jack Weidner (14:51):
and I think to tie in this individual aspect that I
was talking about us. ID issomething that, from the
articles that I've read aboutit, you know, it's very easy for
them to cut something like that,because we are so individualized
in this country. And we see notwith blinders. And obviously
(15:14):
this is a generalization, so noteveryone does that. I know I see
with blinders, but like, I'm notgonna, you know, ascribe that to
everyone, but we see with suchblinders that something like
global aid, you know, we see howmuch is spent on that, and it's
so easy for people to be like, Idon't see any benefits of that.
Like, why are we wasting so muchmoney on this? And it's hard to
(15:34):
describe the public educationabout what this, what USA ID
does, is so poor and really notlike they've never had to really
justify their existence, as theydid in like, a week's time, you
know, and by that point, it hadmisinformation, has already
taken off,
Harry Weidner (15:53):
disbanded, yeah,
Jack Weidner (15:54):
yeah. So, like, it's just crazy, you know, like
we are, on one hand, do not seeourselves. We see ourselves as
the global force, and, on theother hand, don't understand the
intricate web that we have builtas the perpetuator and the kind
of like World Maker, you know,as someone who takes care of
(16:17):
that, we don't see how we playinto that web and what
institutions do that. Like, howmany people knew about USA ID
before? You know, two weeks
Harry Weidner (16:28):
ago? No, yeah, I guess not many
Jack Weidner (16:30):
I knew about it only from you we, yeah,
Harry Weidner (16:33):
we come from such a weird spot where, like, to me,
These things seem so secondnature and like they make sense,
and I don't know how to changecommunications around the
importance of USAID so that thatis a concept that everyone
(16:55):
assigns importance to. How do wedo that?
Jack Weidner (17:01):
You're asking the question of, like, how do we
change people's minds? And thepessimist in me is, like, it
cannot be done, because as manybooks and I you and I have
talked about this, as many booksas I've read on it, it requires
two parties going in with anopen minded outlook. And how
(17:25):
often do we engage with peoplewith an open minded outlook in
like, good faith?
Harry Weidner (17:32):
Less often than I'd like to think, I guess,
yeah, I don't know. It's allvery disheartening.
Jack Weidner (17:41):
So speaking of disheartening, watch this
transition. Yeah, disheartening.
Harry wants to talk aboutfailure today.
Harry Weidner (17:53):
I would love to talk about failure today. And
why would I why? Yeah, why do Iwant to talk about failure so we
had really high stakes exams twoweeks ago now, and so I'm a
little removed from the issue,but we had high stakes exams two
weeks ago. We had an examFriday, Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, or at least myschedule worked out that way.
(18:14):
And and my exam on Friday wentwell. My exam on Monday went
well. My exam on Tuesday wentwell. And my exam on Wednesday,
which was my clinical skillsassessment, did not go well. And
I think it didn't go well for amultitude of reasons, but the
(18:35):
we're supposed to get a history,do a physical exam, and then an
aspect of this exam was likepatient education. So teach,
teach them something, and thendevelop an understanding of a
plan moving forward. So itreally was like the structure of
(18:56):
most clinical encounter. And Ispent a lot of time collecting
the history. And then I wasdoing the physical exam, which
was a cardiac exam, and I ranout of time. They said learners
five minutes remaining. And Isaid, oh boy, we gotta hurry
through this. So I just ran. Ijust ran out of time and and I
(19:21):
left that feeling so horrible,and I don't know why, so I
figured Jack and I could talkabout failure, the feeling of
failure, what it actually meansthere's there, you know, there
are high stakes failures and lowstakes failures. This was very
low stakes. I mean, in the grandscheme of things, no one got
hurt. I don't know that Iactually failed this quite yet,
(19:46):
but it feels bad still, so Ifigured Jack and I could just
kind of unpack failure. My
Jack Weidner (19:53):
favorite thing that ever happened after this, I
just want to say, you, you said,what? Like this? So Harry is
fresh off of his exam, and he'slike, What do you want to talk
about in the podcast this week?
I said, I don't know. I haven'treally thought about anything.
Like, it's been, you know, justkind of a crazy few weeks. And
he said, Well, I kind of want totalk about failure because of
this experience. And I thoughthow amazing that was, and how
(20:14):
incredible, like, you know,like, that's so you all know
Harry, or have known him fromthis podcast, like attacking
something head on when he'sfeeling down, is such a Harry
thing. And then he takes asecond asks me, and he goes,
have you ever experiencedfailure? Obviously, Harry, I
experienced nothing but failure.
(20:35):
I was like, What kind ofquestion is that? He's like,
Have you ever failed? I waslike, yes, all the time,
nothing. But I think I've neversucceeded. Shut up. You've done
very well. I just couldn'tbelieve you asked me that. I was
like, What a ridiculous thing toask. I
Harry Weidner (20:54):
don't know. I spent a lot of time thinking
about like, Why did I feel thatway? And it's important to feel
that way, so that I learn fromit and don't make the same
mistake again. But it also sayssomething about how
Jack Weidner (21:10):
had you failed before?
Harry Weidner (21:13):
Like, had you actually, like, Have you
experienced, like, gut wrenchingfailure? I experienced failure,
like, every day, every day Idon't know, of course, yeah, as
every day I don't get as manythings done as I'd like to get
done. That's
Jack Weidner (21:26):
just every day I wake up, I don't make my bed,
and that's a failure. You knowwhat I mean? Like, I'm a
failure. I'm a walking failure.
But like, have you that wasthat, like, what you would
describe as your first kind ofcatastrophic failure,
experiment, like, experience?
Harry Weidner (21:41):
No, that's happened. I didn't do well on
some, plenty of exams inundergrad, okay? And I think
they're always learningexperiences like, there's
obviously a reason that I don't,that I didn't do well, or don't
do well on things. And, youknow, you kind of sit down with
it, and you do a root causeanalysis. How about that? Of
Jack Weidner (22:05):
this will be fun.
You and I handle failuredifferently.
Harry Weidner (22:10):
You do? You figure out why and why did I
fail this, or why did I maybepossibly fail this medical
medical exam, because I spenttoo much time talking to the
patient and not enough timedoing the physical exam. I
didn't get to three skills,which is fine, it's not the end
of the world. But I think thatbrings up how, and this is just
(22:33):
because what, it's what I thinkabout all the time, how medical
education is designed forfailure. I think it is
deliberately designed to haveyou fail in super low stakes
environments where it doesn'tmatter. You know, we have these
clinical skills assessments withactors that come in with a story
(22:59):
that everyone has, and if youfail a communication skill, or
you fail a physical exam skill,no one's hurt. You leave the
room. They go back to theirtheir normal life, which is
hopefully very healthy, and youwalk away and think about the
encounter, what went well, whatdidn't go well, and you learn
how to do the physical exams andcatch abnormal findings. It's
(23:22):
not like they throw you and tellyou to put a central line in
first day of medical school. Ithink I always say this, and I
used to question why medicaleducation was so long, and now I
have an understanding of it'sdesigned to let you succeed only
when you're fully ready to andit lets you fail every step
(23:47):
along the way. So, like I justwas in the ICU Thursday night,
and there was a student we hadto do a thoracentesis. He was a
first year resident, and it washis first thoracentesis. And I
was like, so he went to fouryears of medical school and he
hadn't done one. How does thathappen? And no, it's like, it's
(24:12):
super deliberate, like, I don'tI think next year, during my
clinical year, I'll probably getsome hands on skills, but I
think most of those skills arereserved for residents, because
that's when they're truly readyto not fail. Huh?
Jack Weidner (24:26):
Okay, so you think that the medical system had
prepared him at that moment,even though he had not done one
before, but to succeed, yeah, inthat moment, and
Harry Weidner (24:37):
it would happen if and Dr Hirschberg, okay,
watched him and guided him thewhole way through. And it ended
up being, what is
Jack Weidner (24:44):
that? Is it gross?
Do I want to ask what a thoroughantisus is? A thoracentesis
Harry Weidner (24:49):
you source essentially remove, yeah,
removing fluid from the pleuralspace between your lung and your
thoracic cavity.
Jack Weidner (24:59):
I. Be okay, wall that makes sense.
Harry Weidner (25:03):
Between he had fluid between his lung and sure,
his thoracic wall, not a littlegross, but outside his lungs. So
you kind of shove a needlethrough,
Jack Weidner (25:14):
but you don't want to puncture the lung, obviously,
but
Harry Weidner (25:16):
you don't want to puncture the lung. So that's
where it gets a little tricky.
So you have to, like, to haveyour
Jack Weidner (25:20):
hands. That's where the skills involved,
that's where the skillsinvolved.
Harry Weidner (25:24):
Only when you're truly ready will you be allowed
to do things like that.
Jack Weidner (25:31):
You sound that's kind of the I was gonna say. You
sound like. You really admirethat aspect of medical school.
Well,
Harry Weidner (25:38):
I think it's important, right? Because you
don't want people failing whenlives are on the line.
Absolutely. So I think it's verydeliberately designed. I was
Jack Weidner (25:51):
gonna say from the outside, I think medical school,
like they have, and everyonejokes about, like, a weaning out
process, because, like, peoplewill fail. I went to a small
school. We had a large PAprogram. If people failed an
exam, there was a stigma that,like there, I think when I was
(26:12):
going through, people did notexpect to fail. People, it was
really like, kind of looked downon and some of my friends that I
think were really going to beincredible. Pas or nurses,
sometimes failed the most exams,but they really like dug in.
There was a lot of grit, andthey were so determined to learn
(26:34):
these skills and really and thenthey blossomed in their clinical
experiences. And they reallyattributed a lot of that to the
failures this weaning outprocess, which I think, like,
the outside world might say, Oh,I think it's like, oh, you're
gonna get like, you know, thiscertain grade, right? Like,
people are just gonna, like, theexams are so hard that people
(26:57):
are gonna get back grades, andthen they're gonna leave. Is, is
it more of a mental weaning outthat? Like, if you can't take
that failure early, you'llleave. But like, if you have the
grit and drive to stay, you willstay in. And that's part of the
process.
Harry Weidner (27:14):
You know? I think that's a good question. It's,
this is not like undergraduateorganic chemistry. Yeah, this
isn't, this isn't like the theprocess to get into medical
school is so strict that oncethe time you step through those
doors and they they hand youyour white coat, and you go
(27:36):
through your white coatceremony, they're so invested in
your success that they will helpyou through along the way. Wow.
It's not one of those thingswhere, like, if I fail, they're
looking to kick me out or get meout of here. It's like, if I
fail, let's find the reason forit, let's grow and let's move
(27:58):
past it so that you can be agreat doctor one day. And I
think that's different from evenmedicine from other like medical
fields. So then the nursingprogram here, I know a lot of
students don't get through thatthe Yeah, the dental program, I
mean, I think plenty of studentsget through, but our first year
(28:20):
is pass, fail, like you eitherpass or you don't, and if you
don't pass, then you remediate,and it's they're not gonna throw
you out. And I don't know, Imean, we've talked ad nauseum
about how impossible medicaladmission is and how much the
whole process sucks, but I thinkit's really, it's almost
(28:43):
deliberate, because once you'resaying you're really there for
the long run, the med schooladmission process, I think there
is some element of randomness,and it's a little stochastic,
but I think Once you get throughand once you're in, they're
invested in you, and they'reinvested in your success. So
(29:06):
they let you fail when you'rethere,
Jack Weidner (29:09):
because it is part of a learning process. I mean to
you have to fail to sometimes,like, break your ground and
approach something from adifferent way, or, like, learn
that you need to or just kind ofbuild yourself back up. I feel
like failure is so important tothe learning process in every
field. I was going to ask, ifyou feel that Denver is a
(29:35):
specific has a really, you know,specific and good approach to
that. If that's if they areunique in their approach to
failure, or if you think that isacross the board with medical
schools, obviously you cannotspeak to the specifics of that.
But like, from what you know,like is Harvard that open to
failure in their medical school.
Do you do? You know? I don't
Harry Weidner (29:58):
know. I have no idea. Um. Um, and I don't want
to pretend to know sure, but Ithink, I think as a medical
education, I think as medicaleducation evolves into this next
generation, I think they'reencouraging failure more and
more. So then you're you'rewilling to try more and more
(30:20):
things. An example of that iswith our exams being pass fail,
they encourage you to trydifferent study techniques to
see what works best for you. Andit like, say, you fail one of
our quizzes at the end of theweek. Okay, so that study method
that you used for that weekdidn't work. Try something new.
So it's not the end of theworld. And I think that most
(30:45):
schools who have reformed theircurriculum from like traditional
curriculum that is, that is areally key component of new
medical education.
Jack Weidner (31:01):
It's funny that you, you mentioned how that's
kind of changed, and it I don'tknow why this popped into my
mind, but you and I both grew upwatching mash because of our
grandfather, and it wasinteresting that Hawkeye, this
show was made in the 70s.
Hawkeye Pierce was always he.
(31:21):
There would be episodes where hewould try something and he would
try something new, a newtechnique, and often it would be
amazing and he would succeed.
But there were times in thatshow where he would fail, trying
the new thing and and the hewould lose the patient, or it
wouldn't work the way that itwas supposed to and I don't know
if you remember those episodes,but that was always shocking to
(31:43):
me, because I was so used tothinking that, you know, if
you're trying something new, oryou're regardless of if you're
in a war zone in Korea, youknow, it should work, right?
Because you're trying the newthing. And I was used to like
neat and tidy stories, and Ithink mash was one of the first
few times where I was I watchedsomeone do something incredible,
(32:04):
and it failed. And that seems soimportant to to medicine, and I
think that that was reallyimportant and to my
understanding of medicine thatyou had mentioned that you
obviously don't want someone tofail when they are, you know,
when lives are on the line. ButI, and I wouldn't say it is a
failure of doctors, butsometimes patients don't make it
(32:25):
for whatever reason, that isregardless of what you do. And I
feel like starting that, notthat you're getting used to, you
know, them used to losingpatients, but the idea that
regardless of what you do,sometimes things result in a
negative, in a net negativeoutcome, and, you know, bouncing
(32:46):
back from that. And would yousay that that's also part of it,
that, like there is a degree offailure within medicine, that it
will just never go away, becauseyou are in a very precarious
profession you are in that youoccupy liminal space.
Harry Weidner (33:06):
Do I think that?
Jack Weidner (33:10):
I guess I'm asking, Do you think that
introducing failure and theprocessing of that, regrouping
from that and bouncing back fromthat also prepares you for the
very harsh reality that is beinga full medical doctor. Like,
obviously, you don't wantsomeone to fail during your
procedure, but sometimes youwill lose, like surgeons will
(33:34):
might lose a patient on thetable. Doctors might someone
might code. You know what Imean, like those things just
happen. Do you think that thatis them starting to prepare you
for that early?
Harry Weidner (33:47):
I don't know.
That's a really, really, reallyinsightful question. I and
that's one that I don't have theanswer to. I think it definitely
doesn't hurt, doesn't hurt thereality of practicing medicine.
I don't know. I don't know. Andit would be interesting to get
the perspective on from someonewho has gone through a sort of
(34:10):
traditional medical schoolcurriculum and grew up in
medicine in a different way thanI'm growing up with it, because
it's changed. I don't know. I'mstill really early in my
training to talk on, on, like,real high stakes failure.
Jack Weidner (34:32):
Yeah, no, that makes sense. Sorry, that was
probably an unfair question. Iwas just thinking about that and
how. I don't know, like, there'slike, I think in the humanities,
like that article that I sentyou about how writers fail all
the time, like, it's just like apart of it, you know what I
mean? Like, you fail a draft,you fail submissions. There's so
(34:53):
much failure. And in thehumanities, I think you know,
because our state. Peaks are somuch lower, you know that
starting there, but also ourideas are more abstract. There's
less black and white. Failurebecomes less, sometimes even
less recognizable, that it'sjust more expected this idea of
(35:18):
failure, and you know, you kindof have to, like, brush off,
like, and again, like, like, I'madjusting, or, you know, you
scat, you know, like a notefailure is, you know, is it a
failure? No, that's like, adifferent question. Was there a
better note? Probably, like,when you're improvising and
things like that. So, like, youknow, that kind of me growing up
(35:39):
in that world, failure, I thinkwas a little bit more talked
about. But in the sciences,where you have black and white,
yes, no, there seemed to be avery clear distinction between
failure and success. And to be agood scientist, you needed to be
on that success like you neededto have the right answers all
(35:59):
the time. To be a good doctor.
You needed to you needed thatsuccess.
Harry Weidner (36:03):
Yeah, I but I think it's, I think it's really
powerful in admitting that youdon't know something, yeah, to a
page to a patient, especiallylike if they have a question,
and you say, I don't know theanswer to that, but let's, let's
explore it together, and let'slook into it together, and you
do the research with thepatient. I think that's
communicating a lot of things.
One that you're human, and youyou can not know everything
(36:25):
that's possible. And I thinkthat does another thing, where
you're teaching a patient thateducation is constant, and you
can teach a patient how to dosome of the education bits
themselves, and read literatureand understand good publications
from bad publications and goodinformation from bad
(36:48):
information. So that does a lotof things to say. I don't know.
Let's look into that together,but I do think that there is
this illusion in medicine, andmore broadly, that people don't
fail like, have we stigmatizedfailure to such a degree where
(37:09):
we have, we've removed thenormalcy of it? Like, I think
people fail super regularly. AndI'm interested to hear your
perspective from the arts onfailure in the arts, because
those are things that I have noidea about. You know, you only
see great publications.
Jack Weidner (37:34):
This is interesting. I think Hank Green
was talking about this in thesciences, where there is such a
stigma in the public right now,because we want, we seek, we
look to scientists for theseanswers and them to be right all
the time, where we have negatedthe process. And he was talking
about Anthony Fauci, and he saida big problem with COVID is what
(37:58):
Dr Fauci did, was what ascientist does, where he says,
the best scientists, the bestscience right now, tells us X.
And everyone thought, okay, x isthe only possibility. That is
the only answer, and that betterbe correct, and it better be
100% unchanging. And when HankGreen said, is like when you get
more into the sciences, what youunderstand is it's more of like
(38:21):
a football game. Okay? You'rethe quarterback. You line up at
the line of scrimmage, you youthink you have a great play
call, and then the defense linesup, you know you're seeing zone.
So you make the call an audible,because the information and
you're readily changingdifferent things. And that
really helped me understandthat, that I think that
(38:45):
conversation really started tolike change my entire stance on
the idea that like someone, likea not changing value consistency
is not is an overvalued trait inmy mind. Nowadays, after hearing
that conversation and the ideaof failure, you know, like,
information changing and thiskind of give and take with like,
(39:08):
what are we doing right now? Howcan that change? Okay, this was
wrong, but like, let's pivotbeing so important, but not
really being a well appreciatedidea and culture today.
Harry Weidner (39:21):
Well, tell me more about failure in the arts.
Jack Weidner (39:25):
Oh, I mean, there's like, I feel like
there's different levels offailure. You know, like failure
in the arts. There's black andwhite failure. There's a call
for submission, for poems or artor whatever, right? You submit
and they spit on you, and theysay, this is terrible. And
(39:47):
you're like, Okay, well, thatwas a failure, and that will
happen all the time that I don'twant to I don't know the
percentages, but like, nine outof 10 times, right? You're
getting rejected because yourwork is subjective. Objective,
reviewing, it is subjective. Sothat is failure. Also, there's
like little failures to, Ithink, you know, I had a an art
(40:10):
teacher. I'm not a visualartist, but I took a modern art
class that just spiraled into meloving visual art. And he's,
he's, he was a painter, and he,he is a painter. And he said,
when he goes to paint, he'shaving a dialog with the page,
and it's a blank canvas, and youput a stroke, and then you say,
(40:34):
Whoa, that was not there before.
Okay, how does, how did thatchange the whole room, make
another stroke. How did thatchange everything? And when you
were having a conversation,sometimes you, you know, you
misspeak, you you put a strokethere. That wasn't right, you
know. And I think that that'slike a little failure, but it
changes, you know, like, whenI'm writing and I hit a word,
(40:56):
like, even if I'm inuninterrupted flow, and I hit a
word that, like, is a failure,that's a failure. But I think
the more you do that, you haveto not think about it, and you
learn to continue your flow pastthat. So like, the little
failures within art, you know,I'm like, a word doesn't work,
(41:17):
or a plot point doesn't work.
It's like, how do I pivot? Orhow do I use that failure to
create something? Or, like, whenI said that, I was scatting, you
know, you're going up and down,chromatically aligned. Oh, that
was the wrong note. But like,how do I make that interesting?
I'd say, like, conventionally,those were failures, because
they were wrong. But in thearts, I'd say, like, as you kind
(41:41):
of grow as an artist, you learnhow to make those What does Bob
Ross call them happy accidents?
Like actually meaning that,because they are happy, because,
oh, they changed everything thatchanged the way I looked at this
piece, the way I wasunderstanding the flow of this
information, the way, okay, thatthat, that gave me a really
(42:01):
unique perspective. So it'susing that failure instantly in
the moment, you know, you lookat you listen to Jacob Collier
talk about chords, oh, you know,like, oh, okay, this is, there's
no wrong notes, there's betternotes. But like, Okay, this is
interesting, right? You're like,in a, you know, you're in B, but
you play an A chord, and you'relike, Oh, that's a is not in
(42:21):
there, but like, I kind of likethat, that vibes. So yeah, that,
I think that's cool, that Ithink is like an interesting
thing of failure. But thenthere's just, like, life
failures. Like, my whole life, Iwanted to get, like, my biggest,
like, one knocked me down forweeks. Freshman year, I wanted
to transfer to Columbia, and Iapplied, and I didn't get in,
(42:47):
and I was wrecked failed. I waslike, I'm never gonna be I'm
never gonna amount to anything,you know, like, it was just the
world crashed down and burned,and that was horrible. And, you
know, like, that sucked. Andthat was outside of art. It was
related to art because I wantedto pursue art. But God, that
(43:09):
sucked,
Harry Weidner (43:13):
dude, those things, those things feel so
bad.
Jack Weidner (43:18):
Oh, my God, I just cried for like, days. And the
worst part is it's like, you,you wake up, you know, and that
it's still there, you know,like, failure happens and you
and it happened to you, and youcan't change it, you know. It's
(43:39):
not like a dream. It's very it'svery present in the room, and
it's about, you know, what doyou do with that there? Like you
wake up the next day afterfailure. It's like that didn't
go away at midnight. It's stillthere. It's still sitting next
to me. I That happened to me. Iexperienced that. I I think I'm
(44:02):
worse at it than you are,because I I am still haunted by
a lot of them, like as, as Isay, like artists are good at,
like pivoting. There are somethings that I still think about,
that I dwell on, that is nothealthy, that is not helpful,
that is not productive, but it'sdefinitely a part of my life.
Like I not every failure hasbeen a growth opportunity. There
(44:24):
are often, like periods of shamethat I think about it
throughout, and that's just avery true fact about me living
my life. What were you gonna
Harry Weidner (44:31):
say? I was gonna say that reminded me of like the
med school admissions process.
For me, it was day by day,failure, failure, failure. I
mean, I applied to 26 schoolsand I got into one or two, yeah,
count Penn State, but, like, andI got off the wait list. You
know, it's not like I gotaccepted to any school that I
applied to outright and to getthose letters, emails, um. Of of
(44:55):
like, we don't want you, wedon't want you, we don't want
you. And to that point in mylife, I had worked pretty much
daily to be in medicine thatfelt so horrible. Yeah, yeah,
(45:16):
and I can feel it
Jack Weidner (45:25):
now like it's
Harry Weidner (45:28):
still there. It's still there. I mean, thank God,
everything fucking worked out.
Holy shit. Because imagine, Idon't know what kind of spot I
would be in had I not gotten in,probably not great for a bit. I
would have figured it out, I'msure. But it I mean, what do you
do,
Jack Weidner (45:52):
thinking about failure, even if you've gotten
past it, and maybe this meansthat you haven't gotten past it,
but it can just
Harry Weidner (46:03):
like, make you feel ill,
Jack Weidner (46:05):
like I presented at a conference the month our
grandfather passed away, and Ibombed this conference. I bombed
it. I couldn't think. I couldn'tput thoughts together, like I
had a great idea for this paper.
I couldn't sit down to write it.
I was all over the place, and Ibombed, and I'm sitting here
(46:28):
thinking about it, and I want tojump off my balcony, because I
just don't. And I know that thenext time I get ready to present
at a conference, I will thinkabout this, and it will inspire
me to do better out of fear,which is, I don't know if that's
healthy or not. I know that thatwill happen, but God it, it just
(46:51):
sucks. Like, I it definitelywill, like, drive me and guide
how I move forward in the world.
But holy crap is awful.
Unknown (47:00):
Yeah,
Jack Weidner (47:02):
and me, Me saying, like, I probably didn't do well,
because, did I pass away?
Doesn't matter, because thepeople that were the audience
didn't know, like, I didn't,like, get up there be like,
sorry, my grandfather died. Sothis is gonna suck. They just
think, like, I was a schmuck,like, there that I would, you
know, that I sucked. And it waslike, ah, that sucks.
Harry Weidner (47:21):
Now I'm thinking about future failures. Isn't
that horrible? Yeah, isn't thatterrible? Like I'm thinking
about the things that I am notcurrently doing that will
ultimately result in failure, inthings that I regret, and so
that sort of ties in the fear offailure aspect, yeah, but it
(47:45):
also brings in regret, and a lotof those feelings are not good,
scary, actually, like,terrifying, terrifying,
terrifying, um, Yeah, like,Okay, I'll say, I'll be
vulnerable here I am. Yeah,crazy. I I worry about me being
(48:12):
in Colorado, and I'll give anexample of when this me being
halfway across the country, ifanything were to happen to our
family, which is the nucleus onthe East Coast, we had a pipe
burst outside of our house, Ireceive a call from my mother.
(48:33):
Did I talk about this already? Ireceive a call. I think you've
Jack Weidner (48:36):
talked about it on the podcast. You and I have
talked about this. Yeah,
Harry Weidner (48:39):
I receive a call from our mother. She's
FaceTiming me, and she has thecamera turned around to a pipe
that's on the outside of ourhouse. And this thing is, is
fire hydranting water. I mean, Imean, at a rate of that, I've
never seen water move out of apipe before, like this thing and
(49:01):
and our mother, not young or themost capable. Our grandmother,
certainly not young, feels likeshe's the most capable she is
outside in her nightgown with ashovel, shoveling water off our
side patio. And I have neverfelt more useless in my entire
life. And so here I am, 1000 orso miles away, and I'm like,
(49:27):
What do I do? And so movingforward, how will my being here
impact things that might happenin the next three, four years?
Am I going to feel like afailure for being in Colorado? I
don't know, but I'm it's scary.
Yeah, yeah.
Jack Weidner (49:52):
I, you know, I share that fear. I stayed close.
I stayed close for years. Yeah,I. Yeah,
Harry Weidner (50:00):
I don't know it's, uh, it's one of those
things like, am I? Am I afailure for being in Colorado? I
don't think so. Because I'mfollowing my dream.
Jack Weidner (50:09):
You're following your dreams, and you're, I feel
like this, you've touched onsomething that's really
interesting. I think a lot wehave spent kind of talking about
failure is like the onlyfailures that you can have are
kind of like career wise. But Idon't think we have acknowledged
the fact that we, that humanbeings, us included, are
(50:31):
multifaceted. And what does itmean to fail, you know, like
you're talking about familialfailure. What does it mean to
fail as a family man? What doesit mean to fail as a
professional? What does it meanto fail as a partner? What does
it mean to fail as a friend? Andall of those things, and how
succeeding in one line of thatoften means failing in another.
(50:59):
You know, there's the adagelike, Can women have it all, and
we are not women? I'm not goingto answer that question, but not
women. We are not women, and Ican't answer that question, but
it is interesting to, you know,to see my female friends, who
(51:19):
are, you know, working a lot,some of them are thinking about
having kids and being faced withthat, you know, how do I be the
best mother that I can and thebest employee and the best
partner, you know, spouse, andit's crazy, and I feel like
every person on earth deals withthat. And there were obviously
(51:41):
less expectations of men, right?
Like men, I think, could allowfailure of the family, failure
of certain friendships, becausethey were succeeding in work and
professional life. And, youknow, like the world is
changing, and now I think we'remore cognizant of those fit, you
know, we're trying to be wellrounded people, and how and what
(52:02):
failures can you I guess, thequestion is like, what failures
can you live with? What failuresare useful to you? Because we,
we've spent a lot of timetalking about how, you know, we
can learn from failures, andfailure changes that. But, like,
the very harsh reality is, like,you know, you fail in a family
way. Is there growth from that?
(52:25):
Like someone not being able tocome to a loved one's like
funeral and not be able to getthere in time if they're passing
away? Is that? Is that a failurethat like betters us? Does all
failure better us? I don't know.
That's Oh, that's scary.
Harry Weidner (52:41):
I don't like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't, I
didn't like that at all.
Jack Weidner (52:49):
Oh, my God, this is such a dark episode we need
to show. This is horrible. Whydid we do this? About it?
Because I don't know what elseto do, because we have to.
There's no other way to getthrough it. Living is so hard.
It's just so hard.
Harry Weidner (53:10):
Yeah, yeah, I don't I feel less good than when
we started this.
Jack Weidner (53:18):
Do you know the fucked up thing? I feel the same
because I always feel like this.
Oh, my.
Harry Weidner (53:25):
Well, I talk to us, I've reached my limit here.
No if there are any experiencesor insights about failure that
anyone has to offer, pleasereach out. I mean, I'm always
interested to hear. We loveengagement with people. Reach
(53:46):
out. Message us. Text us. If youhave our numbers, there's a
number that you can text usthrough, through Buzzsprout,
which is our hosting website. Wehave the the email as well. I
don't know, gmail.com
Jack Weidner (53:59):
Yeah, I check out every every week, at least
twice. Cool,
Harry Weidner (54:04):
yeah, I don't have any parting messages. I
Jack Weidner (54:07):
can end on a little bit of optimism, great.
So I was spiraling and tired ofmy therapist, and I said, I just
don't know what I do ifsomething were to happen to the
family, but it can be anything.
I said, I don't know what I'd doif I was away. And she said,
Jack, you'd get on a plane. Andit sounds so simple, but I think
(54:30):
you know, with failure comesthis idea that we tried, and
that I really think is sometimesthat's all you can ask of
people, and that you know, likeyou we're talking we ended with
(54:55):
talking about fear of futurefailure. And I. Think the idea
is that the fact that we willtry and that we will fail is
part of this human experience,and that everyone has tried and
that everyone has failed isalmost unifying. But there is
(55:17):
something valiant about theeffort there. So what will any
of us do if we are neededsomewhere else? What we are
trying to achieve something elsewe're failing at something else,
is that we will try to get on aplane, because we have to so
Harry Weidner (55:42):
thank you for that.
Jack Weidner (55:45):
Well, if you're listening to this on a plane, I
hope your plane lands safely. Ihate wishing people a safe
flight, because you have nopower over that. Speaking of
individualism, I say I hope youhave a great flight. That's all
I can do for you. But anyways, Ihad that with a joke. I don't
(56:05):
know what else to do. Yeah, Idon't know to do it. Thank you
so much for sticking aroundseeing how this is my son,
Ravels. We look forward totalking to you guys again in
about two weeks, having to graba great one. All right, you
Alright. Welcome back to our tangled minds.
Welcome to
Jack Weidner (00:09):
our tangled minds.
I'm Harry Weidner, I'm Jackbagnatto,
Harry Weidner (00:14):
and we're back with another week
of everyone's favorite podcast.
Are tangled minds. What's goingon with you? Jack,
Jack Weidner (00:24):
nothing. So there's a lot going on with me,
but like, I mean, the problemis, I don't know the work. Okay,
this is what I was like, Theworld is crazy and conventional
institutions would like us tocontinue to speak about the
(00:48):
world as if it is not insane.
And if one person looks at meand says, the one certainty in
life is change again, like theyare, like Gandalf from Lord of
the Rings. I will do somethingthat I shouldn't say on the
podcast. Yeah, it's
Harry Weidner (01:08):
hard to feel right now, like this is normal.
Jack Weidner (01:13):
Everyone's just talking about how this is like,
this is fun, where they're like,changing, like, their juice
berry mix up, and they're like,I tried raspberries instead of
strawberries, and it was justthe right amount of zing. And
you're like, shut up. Like, thisis crazy. Like, people are
putting cocaine in theirsmoothies. Like this, isn't you?
Like, getting a more tartsmoothie. This is cocaine in the
(01:34):
smoothie
Harry Weidner (01:35):
in a way, in a way, like, you almost have to
laugh. And I think we're infortunate positions to laugh.
Jack Weidner (01:43):
You're incredibly privileged to be able to laugh
about some of the things thatare happening.
Harry Weidner (01:48):
So, you know, the other thing the other day, I was
laughing. I was like, so we'regonna buy we're gonna buy Gaza.
Jack Weidner (01:57):
Some of it's funny, like, that is from who
saying, Well, that and that youwrite, yeah, who you write the
check to? You know, technically,it's under Israel,
Harry Weidner (02:06):
yeah? But, like, you know, buy it.
Jack Weidner (02:10):
What you think the people there would see any of
the money? Anyways? No, no. It'sso
Harry Weidner (02:15):
bizarre. It's so bizarre. And did you see it's a
crazy maps, like on Google Maps,it's now officially the Gulf of
America. Yeah, of course. Why?
Like,
Jack Weidner (02:25):
that's been weird.
They he, he banned an APreporter from coming into the
White House press room becausethey didn't legal. They didn't
change the name. They didn't sayaccording with their according
with their standards. Crazy.
Harry Weidner (02:43):
Yeah, absolutely crazy. It's like I,
Jack Weidner (02:48):
because we have the smallest of public
platforms, what keeps me up atnight is like I feel not like I
have to not not like I am worthyof saying something, but that it
feels disingenuous to notaddress what is happening and
(03:08):
that people's lives are beinguprooted in unprecedented and
terrifying ways. But also,I feel like we are the wrong
people at this moment and pointin time to like two white guys
of the podcast, like, what thehell yeah, sure. Can we it's
nothing. We shouldn't but it'sjust like the amount of ripple,
(03:28):
the ripple effect of everythingthat's going on, and just like
sitting with other people feelsvery important. So Harry and I
won't say anything, but we willsit with you and listen and just
be present with you through theinsanity that is happening right
(03:52):
now.
Harry Weidner (03:57):
And we'll try and still come out with regular
podcast episodes.
Jack Weidner (04:01):
Yeah, sorry. So what's new with you?
Harry Weidner (04:06):
Dude? Nothing.
Nothing. Past couple weeks havebeen stressful, but we've made
it through. And I you know,we'll talk a little bit about it
later. But yeah, it's hard.
Things are things are hard.
Things are hard. Hey, questionoutside of the world, but what's
up?
Jack Weidner (04:24):
How is the funding freeze for, like, scientific
research affecting you? Is it?
Have you guys talked about this?
Well, so
Harry Weidner (04:33):
it was going to, but then it was blocked. We have
our dean is really great. Yeah,it was, it was blocked. And as
of now, things are okay. Okay,that's good. So I know that the
Dean of the School of Medicinewas in DC, like communicating
(04:53):
with lawmakers and, you know,leveraging his connections and
talking about how it actually.
Really impact the lives ofmillions of people. He's a great
guy. No,
Jack Weidner (05:06):
I'm sure that that's wonderful. I think my
problem with your statement isthat that implies that Congress
has a part in what's going onright now, and Congress hasn't
done a thing like this is comingfrom a different branch of
government. Like, I'm glad he's,like, rubbing elbows with
congressmen, but like,congressmen have been a little
quiet,
Harry Weidner (05:26):
I know, but what other what other avenues do we
have? None.
Jack Weidner (05:30):
That's the problem. I think, I think that's
the I think that's the issue.
But we'd about to get into that.
I just, yeah, well, I mean, Iwould like to say to video,
good, oh go ahead. No, you goahead. I was just gonna say I
watched a YouTube video thismorning about if you're
listening to this podcast, Iassume you relatively like to
(05:50):
nerd out about specific things.
And it was just about how thisfunding freeze for the sciences
dramatically trickles down intoYouTube, even like scientific
YouTube channels and scientificeducation outreach. And there
are YouTube channels that aregoing to that would be severely
affected by this, like CrashCourse and minute earth and all
(06:12):
of their different channels andSciShow and things like that. So
we'll link that in thedescription. And if you would
like to start joining, if youare so capable of joining, like
Patreon or things like that, tosupport the scientific community
and support scientific outreach,I feel like this will be a
really important you should betalking about the science. I
shouldn't be, and I'm sorry thatI'm doing this. I just I feel
(06:35):
that it's an important messageto especially like, with today's
day and age, of like, howinformation is getting to the
public, important things tosupport,
Harry Weidner (06:48):
yeah, my dude, I don't know, like, it's so
challenging for me when thingsare you know, the world is
changing so much. And my roleright now as a medical student
like that really is my, myprimary role. And outside of
that role, how much time existsto to do anything else? Yeah,
(07:14):
that's that's hard. How do Istay updated? That's a
challenge. How do I advocatethat's a challenge. I'm really
excited about this new thingthat I'll be starting as a
patient navigator that will bereally great. I think it's in
the free clinic here, so I willhopefully be able to help the
people who get care at the freeclinic navigate not only the
(07:38):
complex healthcare system, butalso the complex changes that
are happening around them and incommunity, because there are a
lot of undocumented folk inDenver. So I think I will learn
a lot from the patients, andI'll learn a lot about the
system and what people are goingthrough. So I'm actually, like
(07:59):
excited about that that'sstarting up here a couple weeks.
Jack Weidner (08:02):
That's awesome.
I'm really proud of you. Do youwant to tell people what exactly
that role is and what your roleis in the hospital?
Harry Weidner (08:09):
Yeah. So it's not in the hospital. We have a we
have a free clinic called thedawn clinic, and a patient
navigator there. Sort of it's,it's not a social worker role,
but it's social worker adjacent,just being there for the
patient, answering any questionsthey have about connections to
care, maybe following throughwith primary care appointments
(08:34):
or emailing different providersand saying like, Oh, this
patient, and Being just being apatient advocate and helping
them navigate how complex it canbe to get from primary care or a
free clinic to a specialist whenyou need or any of the resources
that are available, like SNAPand Medicaid, And I'm not even
(09:01):
sure what resources areavailable. So I'm on. I'm really
excited to learn myself. I'mexcited to learn what resources
we have for patients. Generally,in the
Jack Weidner (09:13):
I was gonna say it sounds like the greater Denver,
you'll get to learn a lot aswell, which is not why we help
people. We don't help people tohelp ourselves, but it is a
result of,
Harry Weidner (09:21):
well, yeah, in me learning, then I can, you'll be
able to help more people. Yeah,I can carry those things with me
through the rest of my life,just to know what resources are
available to people and ifindividuals might benefit from
resources connecting with themefficiently and effectively.
Yeah. So that that that is whatI have done to hopefully make
(09:46):
myself feel better about I mean,most of my day I just sit in a
classroom and that doesn't feelgood, especially now, when I
just want to be doing things andI know like i. That's my job
right now, and ultimately itwill help people, but it feels
really useless right now. Yeah.
And how do you how do yougrapple with that? I have no
(10:13):
idea. I
Jack Weidner (10:17):
think what's interesting is, and this is not
going to be backed up byscience. It's a little bit
backed up in philosophy. Butlike, what I have noticed is
that America constantly puts aburden with whatever you know,
abstract concept is, onto theindividual. So it's like, you
(10:39):
know, take environmentalism, forexample, it's like, okay, what
are you, you know, why are youhaving a plastic straw? Like,
don't do that. Like, you need tonot have plastic straws. You
need to be better about yourplastic bag use. You need to
bring Canvas totes around. Ormindfulness. You need to start
doing meditation. You need to,like, figure out how to cope
(11:00):
with the culture you need tothere's just such a heavy burden
placed on like, it's just, youknow, it's very nice, because
it's like, almost this idea of,like, A Bug's Life, where it's
like, united, we can, like,overcome all of this stuff. And
what is not talked about is thatsystemically, they are not
changing these institutions thathave the greatest power to
(11:23):
change things. So like, we, andI think we are ingrained in this
idea that, like, I need to do mypart. I need to do that. And I'm
not saying that that's notimportant. But also, like, there
is an incredible amount ofstress on the individual, either
they blame themselves, you know,for mindfulness, right? Like,
(11:45):
why am I not happy in thisworld? Why? What am I doing
wrong? Why am I not happy in mycorporate job? Why can't I find
time to meditate for 60,000hours a day when I'm also
working 20 hours overtime,instead of saying, like, Why
does my company require me to beso stressed and work 20 hours of
overtime? Like, that's notthere. So there's a level of
(12:07):
stress, and I feel like a levelof blame that people put on
themselves just being ingrainedin that, like, you being like,
you know, like, how you askingyourself as a medical student.
Because I think the idea is thatthe sustaining democracy has now
trickled out and been like,like, how, how are you
sustaining democracy as anindividual? And like, you know,
(12:33):
like the freaking straw thing,like an executive order was just
signed banning paper straws. Andit's like the little individual
things that we could do to helpare just like being pulled out
of our fingers. And it's like,how do I help democracy? What
can I do? This like, incrediblyabstract, impossible to define
concept, like, what could we asindividuals do to help
(12:54):
democracy? And it's so it'sdisheartening. It is angering.
It is annoying to me that wehave taken that approach, this
individualistic approach, like Idon't even feel like it's like
local communities anymore, likeI really feel like it's just
like you need to know what todo. And I'm not saying that
(13:14):
individuals, like everyone,should do their part, and that's
so important, and that's soamazing that people, and there
are so many incredible peoplethat are changing the world and
doing it on an individual scale.
But just the idea in thiscountry that everything is on
the individual and it's likewe're not going to hold X, Y, Z
accountable, is insane to me.
(13:37):
Like you're a medical student,you shouldn't necessarily, like
you should be engaged in theworld, but maybe you shouldn't
feel the guilt of the idea ofdemocracy slipping through
fingers in this country, like,like slipping through Uncle
Sam's fingers like sand. That'sinsane. Ty, that was a long
(13:58):
rant. I just, I, don't know whatto do anymore.
Harry Weidner (14:04):
I don't think anyone knows what to do. I don't
know if, yeah, I have thisMasters in Public Health. But
what can I do with that? When atthe from the very top, from the
structural level, everything ischanging. I spent last Thursday
(14:25):
so upset about USAID. It's likethere are millions of people
around the world that are gonnadie because the world's richest
man is taking away any access tosecure food that they have that
doesn't make any sense? No, no,so I don't know,
Jack Weidner (14:51):
and I think to tie in this individual aspect that I
was talking about us. ID issomething that, from the
articles that I've read aboutit, you know, it's very easy for
them to cut something like that,because we are so individualized
in this country. And we see notwith blinders. And obviously
(15:14):
this is a generalization, so noteveryone does that. I know I see
with blinders, but like, I'm notgonna, you know, ascribe that to
everyone, but we see with suchblinders that something like
global aid, you know, we see howmuch is spent on that, and it's
so easy for people to be like, Idon't see any benefits of that.
Like, why are we wasting so muchmoney on this? And it's hard to
(15:34):
describe the public educationabout what this, what USA ID
does, is so poor and really notlike they've never had to really
justify their existence, as theydid in like, a week's time, you
know, and by that point, it hadmisinformation, has already
taken off,
Harry Weidner (15:53):
disbanded, yeah,
Jack Weidner (15:54):
yeah. So, like, it's just crazy, you know, like
we are, on one hand, do not seeourselves. We see ourselves as
the global force, and, on theother hand, don't understand the
intricate web that we have builtas the perpetuator and the kind
of like World Maker, you know,as someone who takes care of
(16:17):
that, we don't see how we playinto that web and what
institutions do that. Like, howmany people knew about USA ID
before? You know, two weeks
Harry Weidner (16:28):
ago? No, yeah, I guess not many
Jack Weidner (16:30):
I knew about it only from you we, yeah,
Harry Weidner (16:33):
we come from such a weird spot where, like, to me,
These things seem so secondnature and like they make sense,
and I don't know how to changecommunications around the
importance of USAID so that thatis a concept that everyone
(16:55):
assigns importance to. How do wedo that?
Jack Weidner (17:01):
You're asking the question of, like, how do we
change people's minds? And thepessimist in me is, like, it
cannot be done, because as manybooks and I you and I have
talked about this, as many booksas I've read on it, it requires
two parties going in with anopen minded outlook. And how
(17:25):
often do we engage with peoplewith an open minded outlook in
like, good faith?
Harry Weidner (17:32):
Less often than I'd like to think, I guess,
yeah, I don't know. It's allvery disheartening.
Jack Weidner (17:41):
So speaking of disheartening, watch this
transition. Yeah, disheartening.
Harry wants to talk aboutfailure today.
Harry Weidner (17:53):
I would love to talk about failure today. And
why would I why? Yeah, why do Iwant to talk about failure so we
had really high stakes exams twoweeks ago now, and so I'm a
little removed from the issue,but we had high stakes exams two
weeks ago. We had an examFriday, Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, or at least myschedule worked out that way.
(18:14):
And and my exam on Friday wentwell. My exam on Monday went
well. My exam on Tuesday wentwell. And my exam on Wednesday,
which was my clinical skillsassessment, did not go well. And
I think it didn't go well for amultitude of reasons, but the
(18:35):
we're supposed to get a history,do a physical exam, and then an
aspect of this exam was likepatient education. So teach,
teach them something, and thendevelop an understanding of a
plan moving forward. So itreally was like the structure of
(18:56):
most clinical encounter. And Ispent a lot of time collecting
the history. And then I wasdoing the physical exam, which
was a cardiac exam, and I ranout of time. They said learners
five minutes remaining. And Isaid, oh boy, we gotta hurry
through this. So I just ran. Ijust ran out of time and and I
(19:21):
left that feeling so horrible,and I don't know why, so I
figured Jack and I could talkabout failure, the feeling of
failure, what it actually meansthere's there, you know, there
are high stakes failures and lowstakes failures. This was very
low stakes. I mean, in the grandscheme of things, no one got
hurt. I don't know that Iactually failed this quite yet,
(19:46):
but it feels bad still, so Ifigured Jack and I could just
kind of unpack failure. My
Jack Weidner (19:53):
favorite thing that ever happened after this, I
just want to say, you, you said,what? Like this? So Harry is
fresh off of his exam, and he'slike, What do you want to talk
about in the podcast this week?
I said, I don't know. I haven'treally thought about anything.
Like, it's been, you know, justkind of a crazy few weeks. And
he said, Well, I kind of want totalk about failure because of
this experience. And I thoughthow amazing that was, and how
(20:14):
incredible, like, you know,like, that's so you all know
Harry, or have known him fromthis podcast, like attacking
something head on when he'sfeeling down, is such a Harry
thing. And then he takes asecond asks me, and he goes,
have you ever experiencedfailure? Obviously, Harry, I
experienced nothing but failure.
(20:35):
I was like, What kind ofquestion is that? He's like,
Have you ever failed? I waslike, yes, all the time,
nothing. But I think I've neversucceeded. Shut up. You've done
very well. I just couldn'tbelieve you asked me that. I was
like, What a ridiculous thing toask. I
Harry Weidner (20:54):
don't know. I spent a lot of time thinking
about like, Why did I feel thatway? And it's important to feel
that way, so that I learn fromit and don't make the same
mistake again. But it also sayssomething about how
Jack Weidner (21:10):
had you failed before?
Harry Weidner (21:13):
Like, had you actually, like, Have you
experienced, like, gut wrenchingfailure? I experienced failure,
like, every day, every day Idon't know, of course, yeah, as
every day I don't get as manythings done as I'd like to get
done. That's
Jack Weidner (21:26):
just every day I wake up, I don't make my bed,
and that's a failure. You knowwhat I mean? Like, I'm a
failure. I'm a walking failure.
But like, have you that wasthat, like, what you would
describe as your first kind ofcatastrophic failure,
experiment, like, experience?
Harry Weidner (21:41):
No, that's happened. I didn't do well on
some, plenty of exams inundergrad, okay? And I think
they're always learningexperiences like, there's
obviously a reason that I don't,that I didn't do well, or don't
do well on things. And, youknow, you kind of sit down with
it, and you do a root causeanalysis. How about that? Of
Jack Weidner (22:05):
this will be fun.
You and I handle failuredifferently.
Harry Weidner (22:10):
You do? You figure out why and why did I
fail this, or why did I maybepossibly fail this medical
medical exam, because I spenttoo much time talking to the
patient and not enough timedoing the physical exam. I
didn't get to three skills,which is fine, it's not the end
of the world. But I think thatbrings up how, and this is just
(22:33):
because what, it's what I thinkabout all the time, how medical
education is designed forfailure. I think it is
deliberately designed to haveyou fail in super low stakes
environments where it doesn'tmatter. You know, we have these
clinical skills assessments withactors that come in with a story
(22:59):
that everyone has, and if youfail a communication skill, or
you fail a physical exam skill,no one's hurt. You leave the
room. They go back to theirtheir normal life, which is
hopefully very healthy, and youwalk away and think about the
encounter, what went well, whatdidn't go well, and you learn
how to do the physical exams andcatch abnormal findings. It's
(23:22):
not like they throw you and tellyou to put a central line in
first day of medical school. Ithink I always say this, and I
used to question why medicaleducation was so long, and now I
have an understanding of it'sdesigned to let you succeed only
when you're fully ready to andit lets you fail every step
(23:47):
along the way. So, like I justwas in the ICU Thursday night,
and there was a student we hadto do a thoracentesis. He was a
first year resident, and it washis first thoracentesis. And I
was like, so he went to fouryears of medical school and he
hadn't done one. How does thathappen? And no, it's like, it's
(24:12):
super deliberate, like, I don'tI think next year, during my
clinical year, I'll probably getsome hands on skills, but I
think most of those skills arereserved for residents, because
that's when they're truly readyto not fail. Huh?
Jack Weidner (24:26):
Okay, so you think that the medical system had
prepared him at that moment,even though he had not done one
before, but to succeed, yeah, inthat moment, and
Harry Weidner (24:37):
it would happen if and Dr Hirschberg, okay,
watched him and guided him thewhole way through. And it ended
up being, what is
Jack Weidner (24:44):
that? Is it gross?
Do I want to ask what a thoroughantisus is? A thoracentesis
Harry Weidner (24:49):
you source essentially remove, yeah,
removing fluid from the pleuralspace between your lung and your
thoracic cavity.
Jack Weidner (24:59):
I. Be okay, wall that makes sense.
Harry Weidner (25:03):
Between he had fluid between his lung and sure,
his thoracic wall, not a littlegross, but outside his lungs. So
you kind of shove a needlethrough,
Jack Weidner (25:14):
but you don't want to puncture the lung, obviously,
but
Harry Weidner (25:16):
you don't want to puncture the lung. So that's
where it gets a little tricky.
So you have to, like, to haveyour
Jack Weidner (25:20):
hands. That's where the skills involved,
that's where the skillsinvolved.
Harry Weidner (25:24):
Only when you're truly ready will you be allowed
to do things like that.
Jack Weidner (25:31):
You sound that's kind of the I was gonna say. You
sound like. You really admirethat aspect of medical school.
Well,
Harry Weidner (25:38):
I think it's important, right? Because you
don't want people failing whenlives are on the line.
Absolutely. So I think it's verydeliberately designed. I was
Jack Weidner (25:51):
gonna say from the outside, I think medical school,
like they have, and everyonejokes about, like, a weaning out
process, because, like, peoplewill fail. I went to a small
school. We had a large PAprogram. If people failed an
exam, there was a stigma that,like there, I think when I was
(26:12):
going through, people did notexpect to fail. People, it was
really like, kind of looked downon and some of my friends that I
think were really going to beincredible. Pas or nurses,
sometimes failed the most exams,but they really like dug in.
There was a lot of grit, andthey were so determined to learn
(26:34):
these skills and really and thenthey blossomed in their clinical
experiences. And they reallyattributed a lot of that to the
failures this weaning outprocess, which I think, like,
the outside world might say, Oh,I think it's like, oh, you're
gonna get like, you know, thiscertain grade, right? Like,
people are just gonna, like, theexams are so hard that people
(26:57):
are gonna get back grades, andthen they're gonna leave. Is, is
it more of a mental weaning outthat? Like, if you can't take
that failure early, you'llleave. But like, if you have the
grit and drive to stay, you willstay in. And that's part of the
process.
Harry Weidner (27:14):
You know? I think that's a good question. It's,
this is not like undergraduateorganic chemistry. Yeah, this
isn't, this isn't like the theprocess to get into medical
school is so strict that oncethe time you step through those
doors and they they hand youyour white coat, and you go
(27:36):
through your white coatceremony, they're so invested in
your success that they will helpyou through along the way. Wow.
It's not one of those thingswhere, like, if I fail, they're
looking to kick me out or get meout of here. It's like, if I
fail, let's find the reason forit, let's grow and let's move
(27:58):
past it so that you can be agreat doctor one day. And I
think that's different from evenmedicine from other like medical
fields. So then the nursingprogram here, I know a lot of
students don't get through thatthe Yeah, the dental program, I
mean, I think plenty of studentsget through, but our first year
(28:20):
is pass, fail, like you eitherpass or you don't, and if you
don't pass, then you remediate,and it's they're not gonna throw
you out. And I don't know, Imean, we've talked ad nauseum
about how impossible medicaladmission is and how much the
whole process sucks, but I thinkit's really, it's almost
(28:43):
deliberate, because once you'resaying you're really there for
the long run, the med schooladmission process, I think there
is some element of randomness,and it's a little stochastic,
but I think Once you get throughand once you're in, they're
invested in you, and they'reinvested in your success. So
(29:06):
they let you fail when you'rethere,
Jack Weidner (29:09):
because it is part of a learning process. I mean to
you have to fail to sometimes,like, break your ground and
approach something from adifferent way, or, like, learn
that you need to or just kind ofbuild yourself back up. I feel
like failure is so important tothe learning process in every
field. I was going to ask, ifyou feel that Denver is a
(29:35):
specific has a really, you know,specific and good approach to
that. If that's if they areunique in their approach to
failure, or if you think that isacross the board with medical
schools, obviously you cannotspeak to the specifics of that.
But like, from what you know,like is Harvard that open to
failure in their medical school.
Do you do? You know? I don't
Harry Weidner (29:58):
know. I have no idea. Um. Um, and I don't want
to pretend to know sure, but Ithink, I think as a medical
education, I think as medicaleducation evolves into this next
generation, I think they'reencouraging failure more and
more. So then you're you'rewilling to try more and more
(30:20):
things. An example of that iswith our exams being pass fail,
they encourage you to trydifferent study techniques to
see what works best for you. Andit like, say, you fail one of
our quizzes at the end of theweek. Okay, so that study method
that you used for that weekdidn't work. Try something new.
So it's not the end of theworld. And I think that most
(30:45):
schools who have reformed theircurriculum from like traditional
curriculum that is, that is areally key component of new
medical education.
Jack Weidner (31:01):
It's funny that you, you mentioned how that's
kind of changed, and it I don'tknow why this popped into my
mind, but you and I both grew upwatching mash because of our
grandfather, and it wasinteresting that Hawkeye, this
show was made in the 70s.
Hawkeye Pierce was always he.
(31:21):
There would be episodes where hewould try something and he would
try something new, a newtechnique, and often it would be
amazing and he would succeed.
But there were times in thatshow where he would fail, trying
the new thing and and the hewould lose the patient, or it
wouldn't work the way that itwas supposed to and I don't know
if you remember those episodes,but that was always shocking to
(31:43):
me, because I was so used tothinking that, you know, if
you're trying something new, oryou're regardless of if you're
in a war zone in Korea, youknow, it should work, right?
Because you're trying the newthing. And I was used to like
neat and tidy stories, and Ithink mash was one of the first
few times where I was I watchedsomeone do something incredible,
(32:04):
and it failed. And that seems soimportant to to medicine, and I
think that that was reallyimportant and to my
understanding of medicine thatyou had mentioned that you
obviously don't want someone tofail when they are, you know,
when lives are on the line. ButI, and I wouldn't say it is a
failure of doctors, butsometimes patients don't make it
(32:25):
for whatever reason, that isregardless of what you do. And I
feel like starting that, notthat you're getting used to, you
know, them used to losingpatients, but the idea that
regardless of what you do,sometimes things result in a
negative, in a net negativeoutcome, and, you know, bouncing
(32:46):
back from that. And would yousay that that's also part of it,
that, like there is a degree offailure within medicine, that it
will just never go away, becauseyou are in a very precarious
profession you are in that youoccupy liminal space.
Harry Weidner (33:06):
Do I think that?
Jack Weidner (33:10):
I guess I'm asking, Do you think that
introducing failure and theprocessing of that, regrouping
from that and bouncing back fromthat also prepares you for the
very harsh reality that is beinga full medical doctor. Like,
obviously, you don't wantsomeone to fail during your
procedure, but sometimes youwill lose, like surgeons will
(33:34):
might lose a patient on thetable. Doctors might someone
might code. You know what Imean, like those things just
happen. Do you think that thatis them starting to prepare you
for that early?
Harry Weidner (33:47):
I don't know.
That's a really, really, reallyinsightful question. I and
that's one that I don't have theanswer to. I think it definitely
doesn't hurt, doesn't hurt thereality of practicing medicine.
I don't know. I don't know. Andit would be interesting to get
the perspective on from someonewho has gone through a sort of
(34:10):
traditional medical schoolcurriculum and grew up in
medicine in a different way thanI'm growing up with it, because
it's changed. I don't know. I'mstill really early in my
training to talk on, on, like,real high stakes failure.
Jack Weidner (34:32):
Yeah, no, that makes sense. Sorry, that was
probably an unfair question. Iwas just thinking about that and
how. I don't know, like, there'slike, I think in the humanities,
like that article that I sentyou about how writers fail all
the time, like, it's just like apart of it, you know what I
mean? Like, you fail a draft,you fail submissions. There's so
(34:53):
much failure. And in thehumanities, I think you know,
because our state. Peaks are somuch lower, you know that
starting there, but also ourideas are more abstract. There's
less black and white. Failurebecomes less, sometimes even
less recognizable, that it'sjust more expected this idea of
(35:18):
failure, and you know, you kindof have to, like, brush off,
like, and again, like, like, I'madjusting, or, you know, you
scat, you know, like a notefailure is, you know, is it a
failure? No, that's like, adifferent question. Was there a
better note? Probably, like,when you're improvising and
things like that. So, like, youknow, that kind of me growing up
(35:39):
in that world, failure, I thinkwas a little bit more talked
about. But in the sciences,where you have black and white,
yes, no, there seemed to be avery clear distinction between
failure and success. And to be agood scientist, you needed to be
on that success like you neededto have the right answers all
(35:59):
the time. To be a good doctor.
You needed to you needed thatsuccess.
Harry Weidner (36:03):
Yeah, I but I think it's, I think it's really
powerful in admitting that youdon't know something, yeah, to a
page to a patient, especiallylike if they have a question,
and you say, I don't know theanswer to that, but let's, let's
explore it together, and let'slook into it together, and you
do the research with thepatient. I think that's
communicating a lot of things.
One that you're human, and youyou can not know everything
(36:25):
that's possible. And I thinkthat does another thing, where
you're teaching a patient thateducation is constant, and you
can teach a patient how to dosome of the education bits
themselves, and read literatureand understand good publications
from bad publications and goodinformation from bad
(36:48):
information. So that does a lotof things to say. I don't know.
Let's look into that together,but I do think that there is
this illusion in medicine, andmore broadly, that people don't
fail like, have we stigmatizedfailure to such a degree where
(37:09):
we have, we've removed thenormalcy of it? Like, I think
people fail super regularly. AndI'm interested to hear your
perspective from the arts onfailure in the arts, because
those are things that I have noidea about. You know, you only
see great publications.
Jack Weidner (37:34):
This is interesting. I think Hank Green
was talking about this in thesciences, where there is such a
stigma in the public right now,because we want, we seek, we
look to scientists for theseanswers and them to be right all
the time, where we have negatedthe process. And he was talking
about Anthony Fauci, and he saida big problem with COVID is what
(37:58):
Dr Fauci did, was what ascientist does, where he says,
the best scientists, the bestscience right now, tells us X.
And everyone thought, okay, x isthe only possibility. That is
the only answer, and that betterbe correct, and it better be
100% unchanging. And when HankGreen said, is like when you get
more into the sciences, what youunderstand is it's more of like
(38:21):
a football game. Okay? You'rethe quarterback. You line up at
the line of scrimmage, you youthink you have a great play
call, and then the defense linesup, you know you're seeing zone.
So you make the call an audible,because the information and
you're readily changingdifferent things. And that
really helped me understandthat, that I think that
(38:45):
conversation really started tolike change my entire stance on
the idea that like someone, likea not changing value consistency
is not is an overvalued trait inmy mind. Nowadays, after hearing
that conversation and the ideaof failure, you know, like,
information changing and thiskind of give and take with like,
(39:08):
what are we doing right now? Howcan that change? Okay, this was
wrong, but like, let's pivotbeing so important, but not
really being a well appreciatedidea and culture today.
Harry Weidner (39:21):
Well, tell me more about failure in the arts.
Jack Weidner (39:25):
Oh, I mean, there's like, I feel like
there's different levels offailure. You know, like failure
in the arts. There's black andwhite failure. There's a call
for submission, for poems or artor whatever, right? You submit
and they spit on you, and theysay, this is terrible. And
(39:47):
you're like, Okay, well, thatwas a failure, and that will
happen all the time that I don'twant to I don't know the
percentages, but like, nine outof 10 times, right? You're
getting rejected because yourwork is subjective. Objective,
reviewing, it is subjective. Sothat is failure. Also, there's
like little failures to, Ithink, you know, I had a an art
(40:10):
teacher. I'm not a visualartist, but I took a modern art
class that just spiraled into meloving visual art. And he's,
he's, he was a painter, and he,he is a painter. And he said,
when he goes to paint, he'shaving a dialog with the page,
and it's a blank canvas, and youput a stroke, and then you say,
(40:34):
Whoa, that was not there before.
Okay, how does, how did thatchange the whole room, make
another stroke. How did thatchange everything? And when you
were having a conversation,sometimes you, you know, you
misspeak, you you put a strokethere. That wasn't right, you
know. And I think that that'slike a little failure, but it
changes, you know, like, whenI'm writing and I hit a word,
(40:56):
like, even if I'm inuninterrupted flow, and I hit a
word that, like, is a failure,that's a failure. But I think
the more you do that, you haveto not think about it, and you
learn to continue your flow pastthat. So like, the little
failures within art, you know,I'm like, a word doesn't work,
(41:17):
or a plot point doesn't work.
It's like, how do I pivot? Orhow do I use that failure to
create something? Or, like, whenI said that, I was scatting, you
know, you're going up and down,chromatically aligned. Oh, that
was the wrong note. But like,how do I make that interesting?
I'd say, like, conventionally,those were failures, because
they were wrong. But in thearts, I'd say, like, as you kind
(41:41):
of grow as an artist, you learnhow to make those What does Bob
Ross call them happy accidents?
Like actually meaning that,because they are happy, because,
oh, they changed everything thatchanged the way I looked at this
piece, the way I wasunderstanding the flow of this
information, the way, okay, thatthat, that gave me a really
(42:01):
unique perspective. So it'susing that failure instantly in
the moment, you know, you lookat you listen to Jacob Collier
talk about chords, oh, you know,like, oh, okay, this is, there's
no wrong notes, there's betternotes. But like, Okay, this is
interesting, right? You're like,in a, you know, you're in B, but
you play an A chord, and you'relike, Oh, that's a is not in
(42:21):
there, but like, I kind of likethat, that vibes. So yeah, that,
I think that's cool, that Ithink is like an interesting
thing of failure. But thenthere's just, like, life
failures. Like, my whole life, Iwanted to get, like, my biggest,
like, one knocked me down forweeks. Freshman year, I wanted
to transfer to Columbia, and Iapplied, and I didn't get in,
(42:47):
and I was wrecked failed. I waslike, I'm never gonna be I'm
never gonna amount to anything,you know, like, it was just the
world crashed down and burned,and that was horrible. And, you
know, like, that sucked. Andthat was outside of art. It was
related to art because I wantedto pursue art. But God, that
(43:09):
sucked,
Harry Weidner (43:13):
dude, those things, those things feel so
bad.
Jack Weidner (43:18):
Oh, my God, I just cried for like, days. And the
worst part is it's like, you,you wake up, you know, and that
it's still there, you know,like, failure happens and you
and it happened to you, and youcan't change it, you know. It's
(43:39):
not like a dream. It's very it'svery present in the room, and
it's about, you know, what doyou do with that there? Like you
wake up the next day afterfailure. It's like that didn't
go away at midnight. It's stillthere. It's still sitting next
to me. I That happened to me. Iexperienced that. I I think I'm
(44:02):
worse at it than you are,because I I am still haunted by
a lot of them, like as, as Isay, like artists are good at,
like pivoting. There are somethings that I still think about,
that I dwell on, that is nothealthy, that is not helpful,
that is not productive, but it'sdefinitely a part of my life.
Like I not every failure hasbeen a growth opportunity. There
(44:24):
are often, like periods of shamethat I think about it
throughout, and that's just avery true fact about me living
my life. What were you gonna
Harry Weidner (44:31):
say? I was gonna say that reminded me of like the
med school admissions process.
For me, it was day by day,failure, failure, failure. I
mean, I applied to 26 schoolsand I got into one or two, yeah,
count Penn State, but, like, andI got off the wait list. You
know, it's not like I gotaccepted to any school that I
applied to outright and to getthose letters, emails, um. Of of
(44:55):
like, we don't want you, wedon't want you, we don't want
you. And to that point in mylife, I had worked pretty much
daily to be in medicine thatfelt so horrible. Yeah, yeah,
(45:16):
and I can feel it
Jack Weidner (45:25):
now like it's
Harry Weidner (45:28):
still there. It's still there. I mean, thank God,
everything fucking worked out.
Holy shit. Because imagine, Idon't know what kind of spot I
would be in had I not gotten in,probably not great for a bit. I
would have figured it out, I'msure. But it I mean, what do you
do,
Jack Weidner (45:52):
thinking about failure, even if you've gotten
past it, and maybe this meansthat you haven't gotten past it,
but it can just
Harry Weidner (46:03):
like, make you feel ill,
Jack Weidner (46:05):
like I presented at a conference the month our
grandfather passed away, and Ibombed this conference. I bombed
it. I couldn't think. I couldn'tput thoughts together, like I
had a great idea for this paper.
I couldn't sit down to write it.
I was all over the place, and Ibombed, and I'm sitting here
(46:28):
thinking about it, and I want tojump off my balcony, because I
just don't. And I know that thenext time I get ready to present
at a conference, I will thinkabout this, and it will inspire
me to do better out of fear,which is, I don't know if that's
healthy or not. I know that thatwill happen, but God it, it just
(46:51):
sucks. Like, I it definitelywill, like, drive me and guide
how I move forward in the world.
But holy crap is awful.
Unknown (47:00):
Yeah,
Jack Weidner (47:02):
and me, Me saying, like, I probably didn't do well,
because, did I pass away?
Doesn't matter, because thepeople that were the audience
didn't know, like, I didn't,like, get up there be like,
sorry, my grandfather died. Sothis is gonna suck. They just
think, like, I was a schmuck,like, there that I would, you
know, that I sucked. And it waslike, ah, that sucks.
Harry Weidner (47:21):
Now I'm thinking about future failures. Isn't
that horrible? Yeah, isn't thatterrible? Like I'm thinking
about the things that I am notcurrently doing that will
ultimately result in failure, inthings that I regret, and so
that sort of ties in the fear offailure aspect, yeah, but it
(47:45):
also brings in regret, and a lotof those feelings are not good,
scary, actually, like,terrifying, terrifying,
terrifying, um, Yeah, like,Okay, I'll say, I'll be
vulnerable here I am. Yeah,crazy. I I worry about me being
(48:12):
in Colorado, and I'll give anexample of when this me being
halfway across the country, ifanything were to happen to our
family, which is the nucleus onthe East Coast, we had a pipe
burst outside of our house, Ireceive a call from my mother.
(48:33):
Did I talk about this already? Ireceive a call. I think you've
Jack Weidner (48:36):
talked about it on the podcast. You and I have
talked about this. Yeah,
Harry Weidner (48:39):
I receive a call from our mother. She's
FaceTiming me, and she has thecamera turned around to a pipe
that's on the outside of ourhouse. And this thing is, is
fire hydranting water. I mean, Imean, at a rate of that, I've
never seen water move out of apipe before, like this thing and
(49:01):
and our mother, not young or themost capable. Our grandmother,
certainly not young, feels likeshe's the most capable she is
outside in her nightgown with ashovel, shoveling water off our
side patio. And I have neverfelt more useless in my entire
life. And so here I am, 1000 orso miles away, and I'm like,
(49:27):
What do I do? And so movingforward, how will my being here
impact things that might happenin the next three, four years?
Am I going to feel like afailure for being in Colorado? I
don't know, but I'm it's scary.
Yeah, yeah.
Jack Weidner (49:52):
I, you know, I share that fear. I stayed close.
I stayed close for years. Yeah,I. Yeah,
Harry Weidner (50:00):
I don't know it's, uh, it's one of those
things like, am I? Am I afailure for being in Colorado? I
don't think so. Because I'mfollowing my dream.
Jack Weidner (50:09):
You're following your dreams, and you're, I feel
like this, you've touched onsomething that's really
interesting. I think a lot wehave spent kind of talking about
failure is like the onlyfailures that you can have are
kind of like career wise. But Idon't think we have acknowledged
the fact that we, that humanbeings, us included, are
(50:31):
multifaceted. And what does itmean to fail, you know, like
you're talking about familialfailure. What does it mean to
fail as a family man? What doesit mean to fail as a
professional? What does it meanto fail as a partner? What does
it mean to fail as a friend? Andall of those things, and how
succeeding in one line of thatoften means failing in another.
(50:59):
You know, there's the adagelike, Can women have it all, and
we are not women? I'm not goingto answer that question, but not
women. We are not women, and Ican't answer that question, but
it is interesting to, you know,to see my female friends, who
(51:19):
are, you know, working a lot,some of them are thinking about
having kids and being faced withthat, you know, how do I be the
best mother that I can and thebest employee and the best
partner, you know, spouse, andit's crazy, and I feel like
every person on earth deals withthat. And there were obviously
(51:41):
less expectations of men, right?
Like men, I think, could allowfailure of the family, failure
of certain friendships, becausethey were succeeding in work and
professional life. And, youknow, like the world is
changing, and now I think we'remore cognizant of those fit, you
know, we're trying to be wellrounded people, and how and what
(52:02):
failures can you I guess, thequestion is like, what failures
can you live with? What failuresare useful to you? Because we,
we've spent a lot of timetalking about how, you know, we
can learn from failures, andfailure changes that. But, like,
the very harsh reality is, like,you know, you fail in a family
way. Is there growth from that?
(52:25):
Like someone not being able tocome to a loved one's like
funeral and not be able to getthere in time if they're passing
away? Is that? Is that a failurethat like betters us? Does all
failure better us? I don't know.
That's Oh, that's scary.
Harry Weidner (52:41):
I don't like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't, I
didn't like that at all.
Jack Weidner (52:49):
Oh, my God, this is such a dark episode we need
to show. This is horrible. Whydid we do this? About it?
Because I don't know what elseto do, because we have to.
There's no other way to getthrough it. Living is so hard.
It's just so hard.
Harry Weidner (53:10):
Yeah, yeah, I don't I feel less good than when
we started this.
Jack Weidner (53:18):
Do you know the fucked up thing? I feel the same
because I always feel like this.
Oh, my.
Harry Weidner (53:25):
Well, I talk to us, I've reached my limit here.
No if there are any experiencesor insights about failure that
anyone has to offer, pleasereach out. I mean, I'm always
interested to hear. We loveengagement with people. Reach
(53:46):
out. Message us. Text us. If youhave our numbers, there's a
number that you can text usthrough, through Buzzsprout,
which is our hosting website. Wehave the the email as well. I
don't know, gmail.com
Jack Weidner (53:59):
Yeah, I check out every every week, at least
twice. Cool,
Harry Weidner (54:04):
yeah, I don't have any parting messages. I
Jack Weidner (54:07):
can end on a little bit of optimism, great.
So I was spiraling and tired ofmy therapist, and I said, I just
don't know what I do ifsomething were to happen to the
family, but it can be anything.
I said, I don't know what I'd doif I was away. And she said,
Jack, you'd get on a plane. Andit sounds so simple, but I think
(54:30):
you know, with failure comesthis idea that we tried, and
that I really think is sometimesthat's all you can ask of
people, and that you know, likeyou we're talking we ended with
(54:55):
talking about fear of futurefailure. And I. Think the idea
is that the fact that we willtry and that we will fail is
part of this human experience,and that everyone has tried and
that everyone has failed isalmost unifying. But there is
(55:17):
something valiant about theeffort there. So what will any
of us do if we are neededsomewhere else? What we are
trying to achieve something elsewe're failing at something else,
is that we will try to get on aplane, because we have to so
Harry Weidner (55:42):
thank you for that.
Jack Weidner (55:45):
Well, if you're listening to this on a plane, I
hope your plane lands safely. Ihate wishing people a safe
flight, because you have nopower over that. Speaking of
individualism, I say I hope youhave a great flight. That's all
I can do for you. But anyways, Ihad that with a joke. I don't
(56:05):
know what else to do. Yeah, Idon't know to do it. Thank you
so much for sticking aroundseeing how this is my son,
Ravels. We look forward totalking to you guys again in
about two weeks, having to graba great one. All right, you
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