December 19, 2025 • 35 mins
Cliff Bampton’s career in wildlife management traces the origin of the profession. From graduate school dropout to chief of the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission's Division of Game, Bampton helped define modern wildlife management.
In this episode of “Our Wild Lives,” host Katie Perkins sits down with long-time TWS member, Cliff Bampton. The conversation spans from his early adulthood experiences trapping black bears (Ursus americanus) in the Adirondack Mountains to his decades of experience at the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission and Ducks Unlimited.
Despite the challenges he faced, such as trouble in school, color blindness, office politics, and more, Bampton leaves a legacy rooted in hard work, compromise, and cooperation.
Share your thoughts on the Our Wild Lives Podcast by sending us a text here!
Nature DisturbedMother Nature is one weird lady
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Become a member of The Wildlife Society: https://wildlife.org/join/
Support Wildlife, Invest in Wildlife Professionals: https://wildlife.org/donate/
Follow us on
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thewildlifesociety/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewildlifesociety
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-wildlife-society/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Before one life management had all the
technology and tools we knowtoday, it had people who learned
by doing, failing, adapting, andsometimes getting drunk for the
woman's baby.
Cliff Brampton built a career inconservation long before the
field even knew what it wouldbecome.
From life trampling, more than ahundred months areas in the
(00:23):
books.
Helping redefine refuses ofmanagement areas in the lemon.
Cliff's career spans theevolution of woman's
conservations.
He helps build agencies, mentorgenerations of professionals,
and let's put a philosophyrooted in hard work, compromise,
and cooperation.
In our conversation, Cliffreflects on the winding path
(00:45):
that took him from a strugglingstudent to a leader in state
wildlife agencies and DucksUnlimited.
He shares lessons for youngprofessionals, stories from the
field that sound almostunbelievable today, and why
community and the wildlifesociety kept him engaged long
after retirement.
I'm your host, Katie Perkins.
Welcome to the Our Wildlifepodcast brought to you by the
(01:07):
Wildlife Society.
So Cliff, let's take it all theway back.
And can you just tell me alittle bit about your upbringing
and how you found yourselfworking in wildlife
(01:28):
conservation?
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Well, I didn't do very well in school.
And I uh spent more timetrapping and doing everything I
shouldn't be doing in that, butthey finally kept me back in
fourth grade, and that didn'thelp either, and that by the
time we got to eighth grade andwe're going to go into uh high
school or trade school,whatever, Miss Kelly was our
(01:50):
eighth grade teacher.
And at that time I had a bigdesk in the back.
I didn't set a regular deskwhere the students were.
And so this particular day wewere getting to the point where
you had to decide what you'regonna do.
And she went down the differentrows asking what each one of
them was gonna do, and one wouldsay they're gonna take the
(02:10):
college course in high school oranother course, and it finally
got to me and she asked me, andI said, Miss Kelly, I'm going to
go to high school and take thecollege course, and of course
everybody in the room busted outlaughing.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
And uh so she said, I don't think you're gonna be
able to do that.
And because I hadn't passedanything for eight years.
I had to get my parents in totalk to Mr.
Stevens, who was the principal,and uh they they agree with me
that if that's what I wanted todo, and I had already signed up
to go to trade school to becomea carpenter.
(02:47):
That's what my intentions were.
And so uh at that point Idecided that I was gonna go to
high school, I was gonna takethat college course, and I was
gonna do everything I could.
And so uh I did.
And when I turned 16, I startedworking at a grocery store for
four Jewish brothers, and theywere real good to me.
(03:08):
And I also, in the winter time,I ran a trap line in that and uh
at that time muskrats andraccoons and skunks all of them
bring a real good price.
This brings back memories inthat after skinning these
muskrats, I would take thecarcasses out, and they were
really good to bring the skunksin.
(03:28):
And so uh, and again, what I'ddo after I catch a skunk, I
would just go up to it and pickit up.
And of course I always getsprayed.
So then I go to school, and assoon as I went in, they turned
me right around the door andsent me back home.
Uh so all those years, and Istarted out trapping probably
seven, eight years old.
SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
The poor grades are making sense now.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
So uh but I managed to make the honor roll all four
years.
I uh was in the student councilfour years.
I was selected to go to the boystates at the University of
Connecticut.
And so uh anyways, I onlyapplied for UConn.
If I didn't wasn't gonna makethat, I wasn't going.
(04:12):
Luckily I didn't have to take atest.
If I had to take a test, Iprobably wouldn't have got any
uh I guess because of all myactivities and all that, that
they went ahead and uh uhaccepted me.
And so uh when I got up there, Imanaged in my life management in
minor forestry, and so th thatwas uh that was real good.
(04:33):
And then Dr.
McDowell, who was my advisor, heuh he wanted me to go into
graduate school and I was reallyhesitant at that and he kept on
me and uh he got it where I wentout to Ohio State.
And it happened that summer Idid research up at Wynice Point
Shooting Club, which is theoldest duck hunting club in the
(04:54):
United States, and uh I wasdoing research for Ohio State.
We did some tagging of Canadiangeese in the joining state.
But that fall I uh startedclasses in that, and I believe I
took three classes and I think Iended up with two B's and a C,
(05:14):
but I had to take that graduatetest and I didn't I didn't pass
it.
So that that ended my school.
So at that point I w went backhome and went back to that
grocery stone and then I gotinto the National Guards, and
from the National Guards I wentinto the uh Army at Fort Dix and
(05:38):
uh basic training.
And I loved the military.
And and I remember at that timewhen the military uh forestry
and wildlife, they weren't doinganything on all these federal
lands.
And uh years went by and theyrealized that all that land they
needed to manage it properly,and of course nowadays they do a
(05:59):
lot of good work on these areasuh managing for forestry and
wildlife, and and so uh butthat's how uh that all came
about.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
So after you were in the military, how long were you
there until you came back andgot your job in wildlife?
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Let me back up if you don't mind.
Yeah.
I was real fortunate.
Of course, my brother being inthe same field and already
graduated from Yukon and he gothis master's at Yukon, I was
smart enough to know that Ineeded to get as much experience
as I could.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
And I knew there wasn't much money in it, but I
wasn't concerned with the moneyaspect.
Well, I was fortunate that I gotup with the Connecticut State
Board of Fisheries and Game inin 1957, and uh they hired me
for the so I spent the wholesummer doing all types of
(06:54):
fishery work, be it reclaimingponds or surveying streams or
whatever it entailed in that.
So that was a real fineexperience.
And then the following year, uhCornell University, a fellow by
the name of uh uh Dr.
Black, he was getting hisdoctor's degree at Cornell
University, and uh he uh wasdoing on black bears.
(07:18):
And at that time there had beenvery little work done with the
black bears in the UnitedStates.
And so uh he selected me alongwith a fellow in wildlife
management from SyracuseUniversity, Steve Brown, and he
uh also played football, greatfootball player, and then Hugh
(07:38):
Black selected Ray Long, who wasa uh vet student.
So the three of us went in inthe Adirondack Mountains in that
summer, and we trapped uh 118black bear alive using oh I
can't think of the name but atrap now Blake and Lamb, I
believe is what it was called.
It was a number 150, a reallarge trap.
(08:01):
And uh we tr we also used thecovert trap.
So we trapped 118 bears thatsummer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
So tell me, is it true that you caught all of
those black bears before thedart gun was invented?
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Yeah.
What happened on that was yeah,and I got some pretty
interesting slides on that,which Colleen has.
In fact, she has that black beartrap too.
I brought one home.
That was one thing that wascoming with me, and I let them
know that.
And uh giving that to Colleen.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
You were a collector.
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Well, that was quite a summer.
And uh we did all this.
Steve Brown, like I said, was afootball player, and we had a
six-foot uh galvanized pipe whenthey were made real strong, and
there was a T handle on it, andthere was a chain on the end.
And what would happen is once abear got trapped, this trap had
(08:52):
about six-foot long chains witha gamble hook on the end.
And uh from my previous trappingexperience in that, I was always
the one to trace it.
And sometimes they'd be realnearby, sometimes they'd be up
in the top of the tree withthose that trap on them and all
that.
Other times they may be a mileor more away.
(09:15):
And once we found them, I'd goin and make sure that it that it
appeared that the trap was uh,you know, that the bear was held
good in it.
And if not, well, at that pointSteve would go away with his
choker, and sometimes uh thebear would have Steve on the
ground for 15, 20 minutes, andthen Steve would have the bear
(09:37):
on the ground 15-20 minutes andthat.
But once he got it down, uh hadcontrol of the situation, and I
would go in and tie off the leg,the other three legs, to a tree
or whatever, and uh and then Raywould go in and we use sodium
pinobarbital, and this is wherehis expertise came in, and he'd
(09:58):
have to gauge the weight of thebear and how much C C's he
should put in and that.
And then at that point, we justhad a bucket and we put cotton
in it with ether, and then we'dhold that bucket over its head,
and that's how we kept it asleepwhile we did all these different
measurements and everything, andtagging and all that, and
weighing and that.
(10:18):
And uh now on the males, we madea unalicastration and took out
one testicle.
We want to try to determine whatage they started produced a
sperm, what age they stopped inthat.
And then we did take out somefemales over a year and a half
and did a complete autopsy onthose.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
But anyways, that's so you you were basically
building the base knowledge ofwhat we know about black bears.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah, at that time we didn't.
Oh, back, we'll just jump backto that dart gun.
What happened as we're finishingup, Jack Crawford out of Georgia
was the one that establishedthis dart gun.
And he heard about us doingthis, so he got one up to us.
Well, so we were sort ofexperimenting with it.
And uh that was pretty prettyinteresting.
(11:08):
But uh, you know, I I turned 21years old doing that that
summer.
And uh we sort of liked the waywe we were doing it because
we're taking all thesechallenges and but uh and of
course they developed, you know,what it is today, it's really
come a long, long way.
But he was the one that got itgot it going.
(11:31):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
So when you were getting started in, you know,
the wildlife career as awildlife professional, it was
still relatively kind of a newidea and concept to like really
manage your wildlife for thepublic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
Yes, it was.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
Aaron Ross Powell When I got out of the service, I
started, I made up 18applications.
This is when you had to doeverything hard copy.
But I I I I really wanted to goto Alaska, and I knew it wasn't
a state at the time.
And uh so I sent out 17, and asfar south as I was going to go
was Virginia.
(12:06):
So I had one left.
And I said, Well, I went throughNorth Carolina and I said I was
pretty impressed drivingthrough, and I'll just go ahead
and send it down there.
So uh lo and behold, Alaska andNorth Carolina were the first
ones to respond.
And so I called my brother.
I said, What should I do?
And he said, Well, he told me,he said, you know, they're in
(12:28):
the prod, they're gonna become astate, but they don't even have
a budget yet.
And he said, You better go toNorth Carolina.
So I got up with Frank Barr, whowas the chief division of game,
and uh he wanted me to come downfor an interview, and so I flew
down, that was my first trip ona plane, and I met with him, and
(12:49):
I flew back.
I got home, I told my folks,there's no way in hell I'll get
that job down there.
And lo and behold, about a weekto two weeks, I got a letter
that I was hired.
SPEAKER_01 (13:02):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
And I I figured after that interview, you know,
that that was all it was allover with.
And so I I came to work for theNorth Carolina Wildlife Resource
Commission on December 11, 1961.
And I was supposed to report tothe Motor Vehicle Building at 9
o'clock on the 11th.
And I was there by 9 o'clockthat morning, and I uh showed up
(13:29):
and he introduced me to theassistant chief Ted Mitchell,
and he said, You're going withTed Mitchell down to at that
time they're called refugees,and that's another long story
with the commission.
And he said, uh your first timeis going to be working with him,
working at either sex deer huntdown there.
And so that that's how I Istarted out there.
(13:51):
And so I I came down as adistrict game biologist, they
were called a hundred countiesin North Carolina, and there's
uh nine wildlife districts.
And so uh, and as a biologist,you uh several jobs that we did.
Of course, we did a lot ofsurveys.
We did surveys in regards todeer, turkeys, morning doves, uh
(14:13):
quail, woodcock, and all thedifferent things.
I had 12 counties that I wasresponsible for, and we handed
out wildlife planting material.
And it's sort of funny.
One of the items was MotafloraRose, which was really
recommended strongly at thattime by the Soil Conservation
Service.
But that was one of the thingsas we learned over the years,
(14:35):
that that was a big mistakebecause the birds really worked
on that and they spread it allover the farmlands.
And that at that time there wasover 3,000 farmers in those 12
counties that I was workingwith.
And we had a volunteer in eachcounty that distributed these
plants.
And we had a nursery down at St.
Hills, which was a state homegame.
(14:56):
We raised all these thingsourselves, and then uh we also,
the funny thing is, we had anursery at University of North
Carolina in Chapel Hill, andthat so but the thing about that
was I was in that position justa little over a year, and I
received a letter from the thechief of the division of game
telling me I was now thesupervisor of the wildlife
(15:20):
refuges, and uh which took me byshock.
And the funny thing about thebiologists, uh there's only four
supervisors in the state, andthe biologist, Grady Barnes, the
reason they moved him to thecoast to take on that position,
and we had one in the Piedmont,and then we had one in the
(15:41):
northern mountains, and then onein the western part, and that's
where I was sent to.
So I went out and uh I didn'thave any choice on it.
So we did all the lawenforcement work, and uh back
then the fellows did the lawenforcement were wildlife
protectors.
And back before the commissionstarted in 1948, there was
(16:03):
conservation and development,and they were known as game
warden back then.
But every wildlife biologist ordistrict game biologist were
sworn in as a wildlife protectorat that time.
And he wanted us to work withthem close.
Uh, most of the guys didn't likeit and and they they sort of
avoided it, but I jumped rightin there and worked with him,
(16:26):
and then Piedmont area was aback then it was a real big
small game hunting area at thattime.
We were known for our rabbitpopulation and dove hunting and
and other species and that.
And so I every Saturday of that,if the weather was right, we
would use a plane in that.
(16:47):
And I worked with them.
Back then, a lot of the peopledidn't have licenses and that,
so I was always the one that yourun out and catch these guys.
Oh wow.
But back out there in themountains, the uh the the
wildlife protector stayed outthe areas, and they very
devoted.
They uh they lived on thoseareas, they worked seven days,
(17:08):
twenty four hours around theclock.
And one of the first things thatthis refuge thing really
bothered me in the firstregulation meeting, I brought
this point up because back atthat time a refuge was something
you didn't uh you didn't hunton, and finally got the point
across, and the commission wasresponded quite well, and so at
that point we started callingthem wildlife management areas.
(17:32):
And uh and I ri I really likedit, but the thing that I didn't
like was I set up all thehunting on it, and so big game
hunting was a big thing,especially the deer hunting and
uh wild boar and black bear.
And uh so I lay out thatschedule first, and then so when
you try to put in small gamehunting and that, there wasn't a
(17:52):
whole lot of days, and I justdidn't like this checking in,
checking out deal and that.
And uh so I kept harping on thisand felt that we needed to get
away from that and kept bringingthis point up.
And uh Fish Division, theydidn't really have a problem
with it, but opening of thetrout season was a big thing.
(18:12):
And I said, well, you couldstill do that.
And I said, once you open it up,and they could go any day, the
pressure's off, and that and Isaid, it's like a kid, you had a
cookie jar in the kitchen, andyou said you can't get any of
those chocolate chips out ofthat cookie jar.
Well, that kid's gonna try toget in that cookie jar.
(18:33):
But once you say you can haveall you want, you took away.
It was like the time I rememberdriving into the garage with my
dad when I turned 16.
He looked at me and he said,Well, he said, uh, anytime you
want to start smokingcigarettes, you can.
Well, that killed that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
We'll be right back after this short break.
Love wildlife?
Join the Wildlife Society toconnect with a community of
professionals working to advancewildlife science and
conservation.
Membership gives you access toexclusive resources, job boards,
publications like the WildlifeProfessional, discounts, and
networking opportunities acrossNorth America.
(19:13):
Learn more and join today atwildlife.org/join.
So you would end up spending themajority of your career with
North Carolina and the WildlifeResources Commission, right?
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
I had 20 years with uh with the North Carolina
Wildlife Resource Commission.
And then what happened on that?
Well, the Forest Service kepttrying to get me to go to work
with them and the SoilConservation Service.
Well, I didn't want to go towork with the federal government
because they had a tendency ofmoving it around all the time,
(19:46):
and I didn't want to do that.
And I knew I wanted to farm.
I wouldn't do that.
Well, Ducks Unlimited started onme, and they were out working on
getting my brother.
And uh I refused Ducks Unlimitedtwice.
unknown (19:59):
Anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
Anyways, I got a call on a Thursday, and it was
Mr.
Patton, and I picked up, and itwas about 4 30 on a Thursday.
I always remember that.
He said, This is Mr.
Patton.
Then he said, Bob, are youthere?
And Bob said, Yeah.
And he said, Dick, are youthere?
And Dick said, Yeah.
And I said, Oh boy.
And uh he said, You are nowchief division of game.
(20:23):
Boy, you could have hit me witha sledgehammer.
And I didn't say anything.
I I I was lost for word.
He caught me off guard becausehe had two years beforehand, he
had called and wanted me to comein as assistant chief.
He did ask me that time.
Well, I thought about that foreight eighteen hours, and I
called him and told him no.
(20:45):
And uh I caught him off guard onthat, and he should have come
back and said, Well, I'm sorry Ifilled your position, but I
caught him off guard.
So for two years he'd hardlytalk to me.
So this time he was prepared.
Finally he said to me, uh, Doyou want to go back to
Connecticut?
I said, No, sir.
So he said, You'll be down hereat 8 o'clock.
So that's how I got into theRiley office.
(21:06):
And then at that point, a yearwent by and they forced Mr.
Patton out, and uh they put BobHazel, who was over the he was
assistant director of fieldoperations, and uh and then he
wanted me to move into hisposition in which was field
operation, and at that time youwere over the five divisions
game, fish, enforcement,education, and boating
(21:28):
engineering.
Wow.
And so uh that's how well that'show I got in to there.
And then one day we walked in tothe office and uh both our
positions were were abolished.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
Yeah, so anyways, Bob went to NC State, wanted him
to go out there and teach.
And uh and Dale Weitzel heardabout that and he called and got
up with me and and he said, Areyou ready to come on board?
And I said, I'm ready to come onboard.
And I said, But where do youwant me to go?
And he said, I want you back inthe mountain.
(22:04):
I said, Dale, I can't do it.
And he said, by that time I hadbought this farm and he uh said,
I gotta have you out there.
I said, No, I'm not, can't giveup my farm.
And so uh he said, Well, I hateit.
About 20 minutes he called back.
He said, if I let you stay whereyou are or you come on board, I
(22:24):
said I'm on board.
And so that's how I got out.
Ducks Unlimited was establishedin 1937, but he, like a lot of
organizations and throughdifferent things, it sort of
faded away.
And so he decided he tried toget the Ducks Unlimited back on
track again.
And uh so uh he took some of thebiologists that he had went with
(22:47):
him to help and start it.
And at this point, there's twothings I'd like to say.
Mr.
Patton and Dale Whitzel nevergot the credit.
Mr.
Patton for the North CarolinaWildlife Resource Commission and
Dale for Ducks Unlimited, theynever got the credit.
They're the ones that startedthose agencies and made them
(23:08):
what they are today.
They were the kinds that did allthe hard work.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Well, looking back on your career, what are some
like stories or some lessonsthat really stood out to you
that you think are stillapplicable to maybe new
professionals or students thatare listening to this episode
today?
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Well, you gotta work hard.
Now I had to work hard for mygrades.
I wouldn't like my brother.
I uh everything I got I workedhard for come hard.
And the other thing was, ofcourse, I'm losing my sight now,
but I was colorblind and Ididn't realize it to one night
at the fraternity.
Several of the brothers came inand they asked me, they had a
(23:49):
book, and they said, What's thatsay?
I said, uh, color.
And they looked at me and said,What's it say?
I said, color.
I said, No, it doesn't.
It says onion.
I said, No, it says color.
Well, what happened was we atsupper time we all had to wear a
coat and tie and that.
And I guess the combinations ofclothes that I wore, they knew
(24:13):
something was wrong and that,and they and they figured out.
And so you can imagine beingcolorblind, and you take courses
like ornithology and game birdsand all this, being colorblind,
uh, you know, and with forestryand that, you know, I can't see
these dead trees that they'redead or everything in that.
(24:34):
So that was a real challenge forme back there.
But my the whole thing is yougotta work hard.
And then the other thing isgetting all the experience.
You can't forget the moneyaspect, I know it, but you gotta
you gotta manage your money, butyou gotta get that experience.
It doesn't matter.
It may not be in the field youwant to go into, but you need to
(24:55):
to get all all the experienceand learn to work together.
And I don't care in life in inhere, when we're when I came
here as a biologist, worked realclose with the county agents,
and and the thing that that Isaw that you had the two words I
always use is compromise andcooperation.
(25:17):
I wrote several articles on thisin the Wildlife magazine.
And I don't care who you'reworking for or w what your major
is or what you're doing, whatyour job is, those two things
you gotta do.
You gotta compromise, you gotta,you know, cooperate, work
together in that.
So those those are things Ithink that it doesn't come easy.
(25:41):
And you just gotta keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
Yeah.
So how have you seen theprofession and maybe the
Wildlife Society as anorganization and just wildlife
conservation in general reallychange and evolve over the years
since you first got into it,like back in the 50s?
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
A lot of changes from the way that we did things
back then until you know today.
The uh wildlife field, uh, I'mso impressed with these young,
young ladies and young men thatwork for the wildlife resources,
and I had the opportunity to touh talk to a lot of them.
I met some of them, but a lot ofthem over the telephone and
(27:01):
that, and I'm so impressed howdedicated they are.
They don't care about if it's aneight-hour job or they work
seven days a week, twenty-four,whatever it takes to get the job
done.
The degrees that they had in thebackground experiences and the
ones that have succeeded, theones that I've talked to have
all done what I said, uh gottena lot of experience from
(27:24):
different fields, things, and alot of them by going into those
other fields that they reallyweren't interested at the time,
found out that was the fieldthat they they switched fields
in that, you know, and went intoit in that.
But uh but both organizationshave come come a long, long way.
And as far as the WildlifeSociety, Olivia, who did uh a
(27:50):
story on me in the WildlifeProfessional magazine, at the
same time, right after that, shewrote uh a story on her 88 years
in the Wildlife Society, and shedid a fantastic job of tying
that uh together, the 88 yearsof different magazines and
publications that we put out andand how the organization has
(28:12):
grown.
And with uh Ducks Unlimited,where it was just a few of us we
started out.
I guess they they're way over athousand employees now.
I mean, and they've got uh inthe beginning, you know, we went
in trying to keep these lands inwetlands and that, and working
with farmers and to get peopleto donate their lands to
(28:34):
different agencies like NatureConservancy and whatever.
That whole thing is just growingmushroom now where they got so
many biologists and so manypositions working with all the
state agencies and federalagencies, it's just blossomed.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Can you look back at your career and re remember a
moment that just sticks out aslike a really fond memory that,
you know, as you age and youjust think about all of your
life, this this memory keepscoming back.
And could you tell us the storyof that?
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
I tell you, everything has been a highlight.
I I just it it's uh every one ofthose experiences I had, uh
they've all been fantastic.
Uh I've just been so fortunate.
I always seem to be in the rightplace at the right time and all
that.
It's just like with the fishdivision in in Connecticut and
(29:22):
that, I fortunate to be there.
At the time, a fellow biologistby the name of Otis, and I think
I'm correct on this, I think hewas the one that developed the
stream chunker.
If he wasn't, he was the onethat tried to develop it.
But uh one of our streams inConnecticut going into the ocean
(29:44):
or into the wetlands, uh, lo andbehold, we found out that our
brown trout were going out inthe ocean spending many years
and coming back in.
And as a result of that chakra,that's how we found this out.
You know, that that wasremarkable.
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
When did you first join the Wildlife Society and
what what what was your you knowdriving force behind that?
SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
I joined it in 1957, and I really don't remember how
or why.
Uh back then there wasn't a lotof mailing and it 57 wasn't that
long, it hadn't been inexistence that long.
And uh but when I joinedsomething like that, uh, you
know, I stayed with it, and I'vebeen with it.
(30:24):
And uh and as soon as Igraduated from UConn, I still
stayed in it.
Well, my brother never joined.
And it was just like when I camecame down here, I was the only
biologist, and I could never getanybody to join it.
And I finally got one, a fellowby the name A A.
E.
Amundsen, and uh that became amember.
(30:48):
And he worked hard, he workedhis way up.
He's one of the first fellows Ihired out there as a uh area
manager for me.
And I just when I get withsomething, I stick with it.
I've been with Geichel Insurancesince 1960.
When I came down here, I askedthe biologist I was replacing,
and I said, Who do you recommendfor auto insurance?
(31:10):
He said, Well, I'm with Geichel.
I've been with Geichel eversince.
The first house I bought outthere, I've been with that
insurance company ever since.
When I get with somebody, Istick with them in that.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
What has made you stay so involved even after
retiring?
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Just saying, you know, and every convention I
could go to, or well, the NorthAmerican or or the Southeastern,
if the state wouldn't send methat, I'd I'd go myself on my
own.
I pay my way, you know.
So you get to meet all theseother people in that.
And and then being out there asa supervisor with all those
other agencies there, the ForestService, they had wildlife
(31:47):
biologists, they had all this,the Fish and Wildlife Service.
So I got to work with theseguys, you know.
Uh I remember a fellow biologistby the name of Bob Downing.
He and I, this is funny, wentout to Biltmore states in front
of Biltmore states, because theywere having a a lot of problems
with the deer on their on alltheir flowers and or all their
(32:11):
horticulture crops and that.
And uh and we used the dart gun,and we were wanting to get as
many deer as we could because wehad very few deer in the
mountains, so deer populationwas low.
And so uh we used the dart gunto get them deer and that.
And I can remember when thoselions said up there is
cross-eyed up there at BiltmoreStates.
(32:33):
But so meeting up with these,you know, you were working all
the time within again with theGreat Smokey Mountains, and as a
result of that, I was workingwith biologists from Tennessee.
So I guess it's just because ofthese contacts and that all you
kept up with them in that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
Yeah, TWS really helped you build this community
that's just outlived yourprofessional career.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
And my my goal when I came down here, I already had
it planned.
I always always plannedeverything out.
I was gonna stay till I was 53years old.
I'd been, I'd had my 30 yearsin.
When it hit 53, I was gonnaretire.
So in other words, I knew whatmy whole life, what I all my
other goals to accomplish.
(33:16):
But as far as the jobs went, 53years old, I was gonna be in
that one position 53 years.
I had no intentions at all to golike I did.
That was something that I neverdreamed.
Couldn't plan for.
(33:41):
I thought we were one of thebest in the United States.
I preached it to them.
I still preach it to the onesthat have retired that are still
living, and to the new ones,they have this annual get
together.
And uh you know, all these onesthat I I'm fortunate, they all
know I don't have a cell phoneor computer or anything, I
(34:01):
refuse.
And they're nice enough to makeme a hard copy of the annual
report.
Uh the various presidents are ifone of the people that work
below them and uh I always sendthem a thank you note and uh
appreciate and try to encouragethem because uh the way this
world is going, if we don't takecare of the habitat and the the
(34:26):
environment, you know, it'sgone.
SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
So it I I just uh I just love to give back and that
Cliff, thank you so much forbeing here today and for telling
us your story.
We really appreciated getting tocatch up with you today.
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Well, I appreciate you taking the time and coming
up.
Thank you for coming all the wayfrom the big state of Texas.
SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
Thanks for tuning in to the Our Wild Lives Podcast
brought to you by the WildlifeSociety.
If you're loving what you hear,could you help us out?
Rate our show and leave areview, send this episode to a
friend, or share your thoughtsand tag us on socials at the
Wildlife Society.
Want to get more involved in theworld of wildlife conservation?
Head to wildlife.org.
(35:11):
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
Before one life management had all the
technology and tools we knowtoday, it had people who learned
by doing, failing, adapting, andsometimes getting drunk for the
woman's baby.
Cliff Brampton built a career inconservation long before the
field even knew what it wouldbecome.
From life trampling, more than ahundred months areas in the
(00:23):
books.
Helping redefine refuses ofmanagement areas in the lemon.
Cliff's career spans theevolution of woman's
conservations.
He helps build agencies, mentorgenerations of professionals,
and let's put a philosophyrooted in hard work, compromise,
and cooperation.
In our conversation, Cliffreflects on the winding path
(00:45):
that took him from a strugglingstudent to a leader in state
wildlife agencies and DucksUnlimited.
He shares lessons for youngprofessionals, stories from the
field that sound almostunbelievable today, and why
community and the wildlifesociety kept him engaged long
after retirement.
I'm your host, Katie Perkins.
Welcome to the Our Wildlifepodcast brought to you by the
(01:07):
Wildlife Society.
So Cliff, let's take it all theway back.
And can you just tell me alittle bit about your upbringing
and how you found yourselfworking in wildlife
(01:28):
conservation?
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Well, I didn't do very well in school.
And I uh spent more timetrapping and doing everything I
shouldn't be doing in that, butthey finally kept me back in
fourth grade, and that didn'thelp either, and that by the
time we got to eighth grade andwe're going to go into uh high
school or trade school,whatever, Miss Kelly was our
(01:50):
eighth grade teacher.
And at that time I had a bigdesk in the back.
I didn't set a regular deskwhere the students were.
And so this particular day wewere getting to the point where
you had to decide what you'regonna do.
And she went down the differentrows asking what each one of
them was gonna do, and one wouldsay they're gonna take the
(02:10):
college course in high school oranother course, and it finally
got to me and she asked me, andI said, Miss Kelly, I'm going to
go to high school and take thecollege course, and of course
everybody in the room busted outlaughing.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
And uh so she said, I don't think you're gonna be
able to do that.
And because I hadn't passedanything for eight years.
I had to get my parents in totalk to Mr.
Stevens, who was the principal,and uh they they agree with me
that if that's what I wanted todo, and I had already signed up
to go to trade school to becomea carpenter.
(02:47):
That's what my intentions were.
And so uh at that point Idecided that I was gonna go to
high school, I was gonna takethat college course, and I was
gonna do everything I could.
And so uh I did.
And when I turned 16, I startedworking at a grocery store for
four Jewish brothers, and theywere real good to me.
(03:08):
And I also, in the winter time,I ran a trap line in that and uh
at that time muskrats andraccoons and skunks all of them
bring a real good price.
This brings back memories inthat after skinning these
muskrats, I would take thecarcasses out, and they were
really good to bring the skunksin.
(03:28):
And so uh, and again, what I'ddo after I catch a skunk, I
would just go up to it and pickit up.
And of course I always getsprayed.
So then I go to school, and assoon as I went in, they turned
me right around the door andsent me back home.
Uh so all those years, and Istarted out trapping probably
seven, eight years old.
SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
The poor grades are making sense now.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
So uh but I managed to make the honor roll all four
years.
I uh was in the student councilfour years.
I was selected to go to the boystates at the University of
Connecticut.
And so uh anyways, I onlyapplied for UConn.
If I didn't wasn't gonna makethat, I wasn't going.
(04:12):
Luckily I didn't have to take atest.
If I had to take a test, Iprobably wouldn't have got any
uh I guess because of all myactivities and all that, that
they went ahead and uh uhaccepted me.
And so uh when I got up there, Imanaged in my life management in
minor forestry, and so th thatwas uh that was real good.
(04:33):
And then Dr.
McDowell, who was my advisor, heuh he wanted me to go into
graduate school and I was reallyhesitant at that and he kept on
me and uh he got it where I wentout to Ohio State.
And it happened that summer Idid research up at Wynice Point
Shooting Club, which is theoldest duck hunting club in the
(04:54):
United States, and uh I wasdoing research for Ohio State.
We did some tagging of Canadiangeese in the joining state.
But that fall I uh startedclasses in that, and I believe I
took three classes and I think Iended up with two B's and a C,
(05:14):
but I had to take that graduatetest and I didn't I didn't pass
it.
So that that ended my school.
So at that point I w went backhome and went back to that
grocery stone and then I gotinto the National Guards, and
from the National Guards I wentinto the uh Army at Fort Dix and
(05:38):
uh basic training.
And I loved the military.
And and I remember at that timewhen the military uh forestry
and wildlife, they weren't doinganything on all these federal
lands.
And uh years went by and theyrealized that all that land they
needed to manage it properly,and of course nowadays they do a
(05:59):
lot of good work on these areasuh managing for forestry and
wildlife, and and so uh butthat's how uh that all came
about.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
So after you were in the military, how long were you
there until you came back andgot your job in wildlife?
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Let me back up if you don't mind.
Yeah.
I was real fortunate.
Of course, my brother being inthe same field and already
graduated from Yukon and he gothis master's at Yukon, I was
smart enough to know that Ineeded to get as much experience
as I could.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
And I knew there wasn't much money in it, but I
wasn't concerned with the moneyaspect.
Well, I was fortunate that I gotup with the Connecticut State
Board of Fisheries and Game inin 1957, and uh they hired me
for the so I spent the wholesummer doing all types of
(06:54):
fishery work, be it reclaimingponds or surveying streams or
whatever it entailed in that.
So that was a real fineexperience.
And then the following year, uhCornell University, a fellow by
the name of uh uh Dr.
Black, he was getting hisdoctor's degree at Cornell
University, and uh he uh wasdoing on black bears.
(07:18):
And at that time there had beenvery little work done with the
black bears in the UnitedStates.
And so uh he selected me alongwith a fellow in wildlife
management from SyracuseUniversity, Steve Brown, and he
uh also played football, greatfootball player, and then Hugh
(07:38):
Black selected Ray Long, who wasa uh vet student.
So the three of us went in inthe Adirondack Mountains in that
summer, and we trapped uh 118black bear alive using oh I
can't think of the name but atrap now Blake and Lamb, I
believe is what it was called.
It was a number 150, a reallarge trap.
(08:01):
And uh we tr we also used thecovert trap.
So we trapped 118 bears thatsummer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
So tell me, is it true that you caught all of
those black bears before thedart gun was invented?
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Yeah.
What happened on that was yeah,and I got some pretty
interesting slides on that,which Colleen has.
In fact, she has that black beartrap too.
I brought one home.
That was one thing that wascoming with me, and I let them
know that.
And uh giving that to Colleen.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
You were a collector.
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Well, that was quite a summer.
And uh we did all this.
Steve Brown, like I said, was afootball player, and we had a
six-foot uh galvanized pipe whenthey were made real strong, and
there was a T handle on it, andthere was a chain on the end.
And what would happen is once abear got trapped, this trap had
(08:52):
about six-foot long chains witha gamble hook on the end.
And uh from my previous trappingexperience in that, I was always
the one to trace it.
And sometimes they'd be realnearby, sometimes they'd be up
in the top of the tree withthose that trap on them and all
that.
Other times they may be a mileor more away.
(09:15):
And once we found them, I'd goin and make sure that it that it
appeared that the trap was uh,you know, that the bear was held
good in it.
And if not, well, at that pointSteve would go away with his
choker, and sometimes uh thebear would have Steve on the
ground for 15, 20 minutes, andthen Steve would have the bear
(09:37):
on the ground 15-20 minutes andthat.
But once he got it down, uh hadcontrol of the situation, and I
would go in and tie off the leg,the other three legs, to a tree
or whatever, and uh and then Raywould go in and we use sodium
pinobarbital, and this is wherehis expertise came in, and he'd
(09:58):
have to gauge the weight of thebear and how much C C's he
should put in and that.
And then at that point, we justhad a bucket and we put cotton
in it with ether, and then we'dhold that bucket over its head,
and that's how we kept it asleepwhile we did all these different
measurements and everything, andtagging and all that, and
weighing and that.
(10:18):
And uh now on the males, we madea unalicastration and took out
one testicle.
We want to try to determine whatage they started produced a
sperm, what age they stopped inthat.
And then we did take out somefemales over a year and a half
and did a complete autopsy onthose.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
But anyways, that's so you you were basically
building the base knowledge ofwhat we know about black bears.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah, at that time we didn't.
Oh, back, we'll just jump backto that dart gun.
What happened as we're finishingup, Jack Crawford out of Georgia
was the one that establishedthis dart gun.
And he heard about us doingthis, so he got one up to us.
Well, so we were sort ofexperimenting with it.
And uh that was pretty prettyinteresting.
(11:08):
But uh, you know, I I turned 21years old doing that that
summer.
And uh we sort of liked the waywe we were doing it because
we're taking all thesechallenges and but uh and of
course they developed, you know,what it is today, it's really
come a long, long way.
But he was the one that got itgot it going.
(11:31):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
So when you were getting started in, you know,
the wildlife career as awildlife professional, it was
still relatively kind of a newidea and concept to like really
manage your wildlife for thepublic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
Yes, it was.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
Aaron Ross Powell When I got out of the service, I
started, I made up 18applications.
This is when you had to doeverything hard copy.
But I I I I really wanted to goto Alaska, and I knew it wasn't
a state at the time.
And uh so I sent out 17, and asfar south as I was going to go
was Virginia.
(12:06):
So I had one left.
And I said, Well, I went throughNorth Carolina and I said I was
pretty impressed drivingthrough, and I'll just go ahead
and send it down there.
So uh lo and behold, Alaska andNorth Carolina were the first
ones to respond.
And so I called my brother.
I said, What should I do?
And he said, Well, he told me,he said, you know, they're in
(12:28):
the prod, they're gonna become astate, but they don't even have
a budget yet.
And he said, You better go toNorth Carolina.
So I got up with Frank Barr, whowas the chief division of game,
and uh he wanted me to come downfor an interview, and so I flew
down, that was my first trip ona plane, and I met with him, and
(12:49):
I flew back.
I got home, I told my folks,there's no way in hell I'll get
that job down there.
And lo and behold, about a weekto two weeks, I got a letter
that I was hired.
SPEAKER_01 (13:02):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
And I I figured after that interview, you know,
that that was all it was allover with.
And so I I came to work for theNorth Carolina Wildlife Resource
Commission on December 11, 1961.
And I was supposed to report tothe Motor Vehicle Building at 9
o'clock on the 11th.
And I was there by 9 o'clockthat morning, and I uh showed up
(13:29):
and he introduced me to theassistant chief Ted Mitchell,
and he said, You're going withTed Mitchell down to at that
time they're called refugees,and that's another long story
with the commission.
And he said, uh your first timeis going to be working with him,
working at either sex deer huntdown there.
And so that that's how I Istarted out there.
(13:51):
And so I I came down as adistrict game biologist, they
were called a hundred countiesin North Carolina, and there's
uh nine wildlife districts.
And so uh, and as a biologist,you uh several jobs that we did.
Of course, we did a lot ofsurveys.
We did surveys in regards todeer, turkeys, morning doves, uh
(14:13):
quail, woodcock, and all thedifferent things.
I had 12 counties that I wasresponsible for, and we handed
out wildlife planting material.
And it's sort of funny.
One of the items was MotafloraRose, which was really
recommended strongly at thattime by the Soil Conservation
Service.
But that was one of the thingsas we learned over the years,
(14:35):
that that was a big mistakebecause the birds really worked
on that and they spread it allover the farmlands.
And that at that time there wasover 3,000 farmers in those 12
counties that I was workingwith.
And we had a volunteer in eachcounty that distributed these
plants.
And we had a nursery down at St.
Hills, which was a state homegame.
(14:56):
We raised all these thingsourselves, and then uh we also,
the funny thing is, we had anursery at University of North
Carolina in Chapel Hill, andthat so but the thing about that
was I was in that position justa little over a year, and I
received a letter from the thechief of the division of game
telling me I was now thesupervisor of the wildlife
(15:20):
refuges, and uh which took me byshock.
And the funny thing about thebiologists, uh there's only four
supervisors in the state, andthe biologist, Grady Barnes, the
reason they moved him to thecoast to take on that position,
and we had one in the Piedmont,and then we had one in the
(15:41):
northern mountains, and then onein the western part, and that's
where I was sent to.
So I went out and uh I didn'thave any choice on it.
So we did all the lawenforcement work, and uh back
then the fellows did the lawenforcement were wildlife
protectors.
And back before the commissionstarted in 1948, there was
(16:03):
conservation and development,and they were known as game
warden back then.
But every wildlife biologist ordistrict game biologist were
sworn in as a wildlife protectorat that time.
And he wanted us to work withthem close.
Uh, most of the guys didn't likeit and and they they sort of
avoided it, but I jumped rightin there and worked with him,
(16:26):
and then Piedmont area was aback then it was a real big
small game hunting area at thattime.
We were known for our rabbitpopulation and dove hunting and
and other species and that.
And so I every Saturday of that,if the weather was right, we
would use a plane in that.
(16:47):
And I worked with them.
Back then, a lot of the peopledidn't have licenses and that,
so I was always the one that yourun out and catch these guys.
Oh wow.
But back out there in themountains, the uh the the
wildlife protector stayed outthe areas, and they very
devoted.
They uh they lived on thoseareas, they worked seven days,
(17:08):
twenty four hours around theclock.
And one of the first things thatthis refuge thing really
bothered me in the firstregulation meeting, I brought
this point up because back atthat time a refuge was something
you didn't uh you didn't hunton, and finally got the point
across, and the commission wasresponded quite well, and so at
that point we started callingthem wildlife management areas.
(17:32):
And uh and I ri I really likedit, but the thing that I didn't
like was I set up all thehunting on it, and so big game
hunting was a big thing,especially the deer hunting and
uh wild boar and black bear.
And uh so I lay out thatschedule first, and then so when
you try to put in small gamehunting and that, there wasn't a
(17:52):
whole lot of days, and I justdidn't like this checking in,
checking out deal and that.
And uh so I kept harping on thisand felt that we needed to get
away from that and kept bringingthis point up.
And uh Fish Division, theydidn't really have a problem
with it, but opening of thetrout season was a big thing.
(18:12):
And I said, well, you couldstill do that.
And I said, once you open it up,and they could go any day, the
pressure's off, and that and Isaid, it's like a kid, you had a
cookie jar in the kitchen, andyou said you can't get any of
those chocolate chips out ofthat cookie jar.
Well, that kid's gonna try toget in that cookie jar.
(18:33):
But once you say you can haveall you want, you took away.
It was like the time I rememberdriving into the garage with my
dad when I turned 16.
He looked at me and he said,Well, he said, uh, anytime you
want to start smokingcigarettes, you can.
Well, that killed that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
We'll be right back after this short break.
Love wildlife?
Join the Wildlife Society toconnect with a community of
professionals working to advancewildlife science and
conservation.
Membership gives you access toexclusive resources, job boards,
publications like the WildlifeProfessional, discounts, and
networking opportunities acrossNorth America.
(19:13):
Learn more and join today atwildlife.org/join.
So you would end up spending themajority of your career with
North Carolina and the WildlifeResources Commission, right?
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
I had 20 years with uh with the North Carolina
Wildlife Resource Commission.
And then what happened on that?
Well, the Forest Service kepttrying to get me to go to work
with them and the SoilConservation Service.
Well, I didn't want to go towork with the federal government
because they had a tendency ofmoving it around all the time,
(19:46):
and I didn't want to do that.
And I knew I wanted to farm.
I wouldn't do that.
Well, Ducks Unlimited started onme, and they were out working on
getting my brother.
And uh I refused Ducks Unlimitedtwice.
unknown (19:59):
Anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
Anyways, I got a call on a Thursday, and it was
Mr.
Patton, and I picked up, and itwas about 4 30 on a Thursday.
I always remember that.
He said, This is Mr.
Patton.
Then he said, Bob, are youthere?
And Bob said, Yeah.
And he said, Dick, are youthere?
And Dick said, Yeah.
And I said, Oh boy.
And uh he said, You are nowchief division of game.
(20:23):
Boy, you could have hit me witha sledgehammer.
And I didn't say anything.
I I I was lost for word.
He caught me off guard becausehe had two years beforehand, he
had called and wanted me to comein as assistant chief.
He did ask me that time.
Well, I thought about that foreight eighteen hours, and I
called him and told him no.
(20:45):
And uh I caught him off guard onthat, and he should have come
back and said, Well, I'm sorry Ifilled your position, but I
caught him off guard.
So for two years he'd hardlytalk to me.
So this time he was prepared.
Finally he said to me, uh, Doyou want to go back to
Connecticut?
I said, No, sir.
So he said, You'll be down hereat 8 o'clock.
So that's how I got into theRiley office.
(21:06):
And then at that point, a yearwent by and they forced Mr.
Patton out, and uh they put BobHazel, who was over the he was
assistant director of fieldoperations, and uh and then he
wanted me to move into hisposition in which was field
operation, and at that time youwere over the five divisions
game, fish, enforcement,education, and boating
(21:28):
engineering.
Wow.
And so uh that's how well that'show I got in to there.
And then one day we walked in tothe office and uh both our
positions were were abolished.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
Yeah, so anyways, Bob went to NC State, wanted him
to go out there and teach.
And uh and Dale Weitzel heardabout that and he called and got
up with me and and he said, Areyou ready to come on board?
And I said, I'm ready to come onboard.
And I said, But where do youwant me to go?
And he said, I want you back inthe mountain.
(22:04):
I said, Dale, I can't do it.
And he said, by that time I hadbought this farm and he uh said,
I gotta have you out there.
I said, No, I'm not, can't giveup my farm.
And so uh he said, Well, I hateit.
About 20 minutes he called back.
He said, if I let you stay whereyou are or you come on board, I
(22:24):
said I'm on board.
And so that's how I got out.
Ducks Unlimited was establishedin 1937, but he, like a lot of
organizations and throughdifferent things, it sort of
faded away.
And so he decided he tried toget the Ducks Unlimited back on
track again.
And uh so uh he took some of thebiologists that he had went with
(22:47):
him to help and start it.
And at this point, there's twothings I'd like to say.
Mr.
Patton and Dale Whitzel nevergot the credit.
Mr.
Patton for the North CarolinaWildlife Resource Commission and
Dale for Ducks Unlimited, theynever got the credit.
They're the ones that startedthose agencies and made them
(23:08):
what they are today.
They were the kinds that did allthe hard work.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Well, looking back on your career, what are some
like stories or some lessonsthat really stood out to you
that you think are stillapplicable to maybe new
professionals or students thatare listening to this episode
today?
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Well, you gotta work hard.
Now I had to work hard for mygrades.
I wouldn't like my brother.
I uh everything I got I workedhard for come hard.
And the other thing was, ofcourse, I'm losing my sight now,
but I was colorblind and Ididn't realize it to one night
at the fraternity.
Several of the brothers came inand they asked me, they had a
(23:49):
book, and they said, What's thatsay?
I said, uh, color.
And they looked at me and said,What's it say?
I said, color.
I said, No, it doesn't.
It says onion.
I said, No, it says color.
Well, what happened was we atsupper time we all had to wear a
coat and tie and that.
And I guess the combinations ofclothes that I wore, they knew
(24:13):
something was wrong and that,and they and they figured out.
And so you can imagine beingcolorblind, and you take courses
like ornithology and game birdsand all this, being colorblind,
uh, you know, and with forestryand that, you know, I can't see
these dead trees that they'redead or everything in that.
(24:34):
So that was a real challenge forme back there.
But my the whole thing is yougotta work hard.
And then the other thing isgetting all the experience.
You can't forget the moneyaspect, I know it, but you gotta
you gotta manage your money, butyou gotta get that experience.
It doesn't matter.
It may not be in the field youwant to go into, but you need to
(24:55):
to get all all the experienceand learn to work together.
And I don't care in life in inhere, when we're when I came
here as a biologist, worked realclose with the county agents,
and and the thing that that Isaw that you had the two words I
always use is compromise andcooperation.
(25:17):
I wrote several articles on thisin the Wildlife magazine.
And I don't care who you'reworking for or w what your major
is or what you're doing, whatyour job is, those two things
you gotta do.
You gotta compromise, you gotta,you know, cooperate, work
together in that.
So those those are things Ithink that it doesn't come easy.
(25:41):
And you just gotta keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
Yeah.
So how have you seen theprofession and maybe the
Wildlife Society as anorganization and just wildlife
conservation in general reallychange and evolve over the years
since you first got into it,like back in the 50s?
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
A lot of changes from the way that we did things
back then until you know today.
The uh wildlife field, uh, I'mso impressed with these young,
young ladies and young men thatwork for the wildlife resources,
and I had the opportunity to touh talk to a lot of them.
I met some of them, but a lot ofthem over the telephone and
(27:01):
that, and I'm so impressed howdedicated they are.
They don't care about if it's aneight-hour job or they work
seven days a week, twenty-four,whatever it takes to get the job
done.
The degrees that they had in thebackground experiences and the
ones that have succeeded, theones that I've talked to have
all done what I said, uh gottena lot of experience from
(27:24):
different fields, things, and alot of them by going into those
other fields that they reallyweren't interested at the time,
found out that was the fieldthat they they switched fields
in that, you know, and went intoit in that.
But uh but both organizationshave come come a long, long way.
And as far as the WildlifeSociety, Olivia, who did uh a
(27:50):
story on me in the WildlifeProfessional magazine, at the
same time, right after that, shewrote uh a story on her 88 years
in the Wildlife Society, and shedid a fantastic job of tying
that uh together, the 88 yearsof different magazines and
publications that we put out andand how the organization has
(28:12):
grown.
And with uh Ducks Unlimited,where it was just a few of us we
started out.
I guess they they're way over athousand employees now.
I mean, and they've got uh inthe beginning, you know, we went
in trying to keep these lands inwetlands and that, and working
with farmers and to get peopleto donate their lands to
(28:34):
different agencies like NatureConservancy and whatever.
That whole thing is just growingmushroom now where they got so
many biologists and so manypositions working with all the
state agencies and federalagencies, it's just blossomed.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Can you look back at your career and re remember a
moment that just sticks out aslike a really fond memory that,
you know, as you age and youjust think about all of your
life, this this memory keepscoming back.
And could you tell us the storyof that?
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
I tell you, everything has been a highlight.
I I just it it's uh every one ofthose experiences I had, uh
they've all been fantastic.
Uh I've just been so fortunate.
I always seem to be in the rightplace at the right time and all
that.
It's just like with the fishdivision in in Connecticut and
(29:22):
that, I fortunate to be there.
At the time, a fellow biologistby the name of Otis, and I think
I'm correct on this, I think hewas the one that developed the
stream chunker.
If he wasn't, he was the onethat tried to develop it.
But uh one of our streams inConnecticut going into the ocean
(29:44):
or into the wetlands, uh, lo andbehold, we found out that our
brown trout were going out inthe ocean spending many years
and coming back in.
And as a result of that chakra,that's how we found this out.
You know, that that wasremarkable.
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
When did you first join the Wildlife Society and
what what what was your you knowdriving force behind that?
SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
I joined it in 1957, and I really don't remember how
or why.
Uh back then there wasn't a lotof mailing and it 57 wasn't that
long, it hadn't been inexistence that long.
And uh but when I joinedsomething like that, uh, you
know, I stayed with it, and I'vebeen with it.
(30:24):
And uh and as soon as Igraduated from UConn, I still
stayed in it.
Well, my brother never joined.
And it was just like when I camecame down here, I was the only
biologist, and I could never getanybody to join it.
And I finally got one, a fellowby the name A A.
E.
Amundsen, and uh that became amember.
(30:48):
And he worked hard, he workedhis way up.
He's one of the first fellows Ihired out there as a uh area
manager for me.
And I just when I get withsomething, I stick with it.
I've been with Geichel Insurancesince 1960.
When I came down here, I askedthe biologist I was replacing,
and I said, Who do you recommendfor auto insurance?
(31:10):
He said, Well, I'm with Geichel.
I've been with Geichel eversince.
The first house I bought outthere, I've been with that
insurance company ever since.
When I get with somebody, Istick with them in that.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
What has made you stay so involved even after
retiring?
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Just saying, you know, and every convention I
could go to, or well, the NorthAmerican or or the Southeastern,
if the state wouldn't send methat, I'd I'd go myself on my
own.
I pay my way, you know.
So you get to meet all theseother people in that.
And and then being out there asa supervisor with all those
other agencies there, the ForestService, they had wildlife
(31:47):
biologists, they had all this,the Fish and Wildlife Service.
So I got to work with theseguys, you know.
Uh I remember a fellow biologistby the name of Bob Downing.
He and I, this is funny, wentout to Biltmore states in front
of Biltmore states, because theywere having a a lot of problems
with the deer on their on alltheir flowers and or all their
(32:11):
horticulture crops and that.
And uh and we used the dart gun,and we were wanting to get as
many deer as we could because wehad very few deer in the
mountains, so deer populationwas low.
And so uh we used the dart gunto get them deer and that.
And I can remember when thoselions said up there is
cross-eyed up there at BiltmoreStates.
(32:33):
But so meeting up with these,you know, you were working all
the time within again with theGreat Smokey Mountains, and as a
result of that, I was workingwith biologists from Tennessee.
So I guess it's just because ofthese contacts and that all you
kept up with them in that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
Yeah, TWS really helped you build this community
that's just outlived yourprofessional career.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
And my my goal when I came down here, I already had
it planned.
I always always plannedeverything out.
I was gonna stay till I was 53years old.
I'd been, I'd had my 30 yearsin.
When it hit 53, I was gonnaretire.
So in other words, I knew whatmy whole life, what I all my
other goals to accomplish.
(33:16):
But as far as the jobs went, 53years old, I was gonna be in
that one position 53 years.
I had no intentions at all to golike I did.
That was something that I neverdreamed.
Couldn't plan for.
(33:41):
I thought we were one of thebest in the United States.
I preached it to them.
I still preach it to the onesthat have retired that are still
living, and to the new ones,they have this annual get
together.
And uh you know, all these onesthat I I'm fortunate, they all
know I don't have a cell phoneor computer or anything, I
(34:01):
refuse.
And they're nice enough to makeme a hard copy of the annual
report.
Uh the various presidents are ifone of the people that work
below them and uh I always sendthem a thank you note and uh
appreciate and try to encouragethem because uh the way this
world is going, if we don't takecare of the habitat and the the
(34:26):
environment, you know, it'sgone.
SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
So it I I just uh I just love to give back and that
Cliff, thank you so much forbeing here today and for telling
us your story.
We really appreciated getting tocatch up with you today.
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Well, I appreciate you taking the time and coming
up.
Thank you for coming all the wayfrom the big state of Texas.
SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
Thanks for tuning in to the Our Wild Lives Podcast
brought to you by the WildlifeSociety.
If you're loving what you hear,could you help us out?
Rate our show and leave areview, send this episode to a
friend, or share your thoughtsand tag us on socials at the
Wildlife Society.
Want to get more involved in theworld of wildlife conservation?
Head to wildlife.org.
(35:11):
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.