October 24, 2025 • 32 mins
You signed up for wildlife science to work with animals—then discovered most of the job is working with people...
In this episode, Katie sits down with Dr. Anna Chalfoun in Pinedale, Wyoming, to unpack the soft skills that drive great science: building a healthy lab culture, mentoring with intention, and navigating conflict without burning bridges.
Anna shares candid lessons you can use whether you’re a new professor, a grad student searching for the right advisor, or a professional trying to make your team work better.
Conflict is inevitable, so we share tools that work. Anna’s favorite: pause, breathe, get curious. It’s a simple reset that replaces knee-jerk fixes with better questions.. By the end, you’ll have a playbook for aligning your lab with your values, supporting students as they grow from learners to colleagues, and sustaining your own energy for the long haul.
If you care about wildlife, mentorship, and doing science that lasts, this conversation will sharpen the way you lead and learn.
Enjoyed the conversation? Subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave a review to help more folks find the show.
Learn more:
The Wildlife Society - https://wildlife.org/
About Anna - https://wyocoopunit.org/chalfoun-lab/don-jones-2/
Wyoming Co-op Unit - https://wyocoopunit.org/
Tara Kuipers workshops - https://www.tarakuipersconsulting.com/copy-of-services
Share your thoughts on the Our Wild Lives Podcast by sending us a text here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie Perkins (00:01):
So, you got into wildlife to work with the
animals, but no one actuallytold you how much time you'd be
spending managing people.
We feel you.
In this episode, I sit downwith Anna Shalfun in Pinedale,
Wyoming to talk about building apositive lab culture, mentoring
the next generation, andnavigating the human side of a
science career.
(00:22):
When you meet her students,they rave about her supportive
leadership, and today she'sgiving us the behind-the-scenes
look into how she builds that.
We uncover her path fromundecided undergrad to co-op
unit scientists, how to handlelab conflict, and advice for
professors, students, andadvisors alike.
If you work with people,spoiler alert, you do, you're
(00:43):
gonna want to hear this one.
Anna Chalfoun (01:03):
Yeah, so I was a biological science undergrad,
and I think a lot of young folksthat end up in wildlife didn't
even realize that this was apotential career that one could
pursue.
And so I dabbled back and forthwith different majors and
(01:24):
thought I was going to bepre-vet, worked at a vet clinic
at various points.
And then in my junior year, Itook this conservation biology
class and I just kind of mindblown wide open, and I thought,
wow, this is me, this is what Iwant to do.
And so from there I got a widevariety of field experiences,
(01:47):
uh, did my master's degree andthen my PhD, and was able to
land my dream job as a co-opunit scientist at the Wyoming
Cooperative Fish and WildlifeResearch Unit, which is part of
the U.S.
Geological Surveys CRU program,cooperative research units
(02:08):
program.
Katie Perkins (02:09):
So today you're a professor and you've got this
lab of students, and you're alsostill doing research of your
own, or what does that looklike?
Anna Chalfoun (02:18):
Yeah, as co-op unit scientists, we have three
main foci in our jobs.
One is to conduct research thatmeets the informational needs
of our state and federalcooperators.
And the next is to help trainthe next generation of wildlife
biologists, and the third is toprovide technical assistance
(02:40):
also to our cooperators.
So I would say that the studentpart of it is the most
rewarding and meaningful part ofthat, of course, in combination
with getting to do sciencethat, of course, we're all very
passionate about.
Katie Perkins (02:57):
Right.
And that's exactly what we'rehere to talk about today is that
process of training newwildlife professionals, creating
labs, and being in, you know, auniversity setting, and all of
the tips and tricks and adviceand fails and lessons that we've
learned along the way oftraining that next generation.
So did you always want to be amentor?
Anna Chalfoun (03:18):
It's funny because I was not one of those
young people that, you know,when I was six years old, I
said, I want to be a professor.
Absolutely not.
For me, it was along the way, Ijust tried to be true to myself
and I tried different thingsand I said yay or nay along the
way.
And that's why I think gettingexperiential experiences, sorry,
(03:39):
that's redundant, but along theway, in a in addition to your
academic course of training, isreally, really critical.
And and to me at least, too,those experiential opportunities
are what really stuck to mybones and were very influential
in guiding me to what I wasreally passionate about and what
I found meaningful.
Katie Perkins (04:00):
Do you have a story from one of those
experiences you're talking aboutthat kind of sticks out in your
head?
Gosh, they all really do.
Anna Chalfoun (04:08):
So I got my start doing a research experience for
undergraduates in Cape Cod,Massachusetts, studying bivalve
growth.
So two species of clams, andhow they grew in relation to
different levels of nutrientloading in three different
(04:30):
estuaries.
And that is a bit far off fromwhere I ended up, but that just
goes to show you that some ofthese fundamental skills, that,
for example, was an experiencethat made me clued into, oh wow,
I really love this process ofscience.
And then after that, I triedsome more terrestrial
(04:53):
opportunities because I realizedthere might be more
opportunities in terrestrialsystems.
And really, I was justpassionate about the natural
world in general and animals inthe wild.
So I think almost anyexperience relevant to where you
think you might end up, youwill learn and you will get your
(05:15):
feet wet, and they can all bereally valuable.
Katie Perkins (05:19):
Yeah, we hear that all the time.
So that's definitely definitelytrue, and such a key piece of
advice that you should reallytake to heart.
How about some advice for maybeyoung professors just starting
out?
What does that process looklike of becoming a professor?
Anna Chalfoun (05:36):
Oh my gosh.
The irony in this topic is thatunlike, so I have friends that
are elementary and high schoolteachers, and they go through a
really rigorous process ofcertification and training of
how to teach for those jobs.
(05:56):
And hopefully this will givepeople out there a little bit of
grace for faculty in the sensethat most of us do not go
through any sort of technicaltraining for some of these
really critical skills, which ishow do you build a lab?
How do you do grantsmanagement?
How do you select students?
(06:17):
How do you deal withinterpersonal conflicts?
Because that's common, right?
It's not a bad thing, it's justnormal.
And so a lot of that is if youhappen to have really good
mentors, if you are somebodythat is open to seeking advice,
talking to people that have gonethrough the things that you
(06:38):
aspire to do.
And then a lot of it islearning along the way.
Definitely.
Katie Perkins (06:44):
So let's get into that.
Let's get into, you know, whatadvice you might have for them.
So step one, you become aprofessor and you've got do you
have the money to hire agraduate student, or is that
something that you're going togo out and write grants for?
And then you start the graduatestudent process.
Anna Chalfoun (07:01):
It really depends on your position.
So typical faculty lines willbe given some startup packages
or a startup package.
One advice, particularly, Iwill say, for young female
professionals that tend not toadvocate for themselves as
strongly sometimes as males, isthat don't take the first offer
(07:26):
and really think carefully aboutwhat you need to successfully
establish and build your lab andask for that as long as it's
reasonable is one really keypoint of advice.
And then again, be true toyourself in terms of what makes
sense for the structure andcomposition of your lab.
(07:47):
What are the main researchthrusts that you are super
passionate about and which doyou want to tackle first?
And how do you navigate thatwith your teaching load?
And yeah, it's a it's a littlecomplicated and context
dependent, but I guess those aresome things that come first to
mind.
Katie Perkins (08:07):
Yeah, definitely.
Figure out where yourpriorities are and what you need
and go from there.
So let's say you've done that,you you know what you're gonna
research, you've got some money.
Now you just put out your veryfirst posting for a graduate
student.
What are we doing now?
Anna Chalfoun (08:23):
Yeah, so one uh wonderful thing about some time
into the faculty experience isthat you will learn the type of
people with which you are themost compatible and the types of
traits in students that youlook for.
And over time as well, you willhave people seeking out you as
(08:48):
an advisor without even havingto advertise.
Even now, however, I still,when I do advertise for graduate
positions, I can get, you know,a hundred applicants, which in
some ways is kind ofheartbreaking, right?
Because that means there are alot of people that are
passionate about the wildlifefield, and we don't necessarily
(09:08):
have those graduate positions orjobs afterwards for that
matter.
But I really have honed in onthe types of things that I look
for in a student.
And one thing I think is superhelpful to me that I now do for
(09:29):
every incoming student is Ibring them to the campus of
University of Wyoming.
I have them meet with meindividually, get some
one-on-one.
I have them meet with mystudents individually and maybe
some other students and facultyin the department and the
program.
And then we also do some sortof social activity together,
(09:53):
whether it's, you know, apotluck at my house or going out
to a local establishment orsomething.
And that gives me, incombination with the students'
record and their interview, etcetera, a really good sense for
will this person fit into mylab?
And I really personally striveto have a collaborative,
(10:16):
supportive, almost family-likelab atmosphere.
And so we really want tosustain that.
And so having that person comeand interact with everyone
really helps keep that going.
Katie Perkins (10:28):
Right.
I think you know, you aresigning on and these students
are signing on to spend, youknow, anywhere from two to six
years together.
That's a really, really that'slike a committed relationship
that you're you're seeking,you're uh, you know, testing the
waters for.
And so talking from a studentside of things, what should the
student be looking for in apotential advisor and then maybe
(10:49):
flip-flop it and tell me, youknow, what kind of specific
traits are you looking for in astudent?
Anna Chalfoun (10:54):
I love this question.
It really hits home because Ifeel like I was one of those
people that didn't understandwhat some of us now refer to as
the hidden curriculum, which isthings like applying for a
master's program or a PhD forthat matter, is not the same as
applying for undergraduateprograms.
Really, at that point, the keything is to establish a
(11:18):
connection with a potentialadvisor.
If you have that, a lot ofother things will fall into
place, but you can't just expectto send out a random forum
letter to every single potentialadvisor and program and expect
that you're gonna hit thejackpot.
So you really need to thinkabout what sorts of questions
(11:43):
really interest you.
Are you interested in animalbehavior?
Are you interested in whatdrives population growth?
Are you interested in patternsof biodiversity?
Really try to think thosethings through.
Do some reading of the primaryliterature, look up some of the,
at least some of the key papersthat have come out of that
person's lab.
And it, like you said, it's atwo-way street.
(12:06):
It's a huge commitment on bothparties.
And so, even really importantbefore you make a final decision
to get the real skinny fromthose current or previous lab
members of that professor tomake sure that that really makes
sense in terms of a fit andyour personalities and your
goals and what you know you needfrom a mentor.
(12:29):
Because there's, let's face it,a lot of variation in people's
mentoring styles.
Katie Perkins (12:35):
Right.
You talk about developing thoserelationships.
Where should students beseeking out opportunities to
connect with people andacademics and to learn more
about these?
Or should they go toconferences?
Should they be a part of localsocieties?
Like what should they be doing?
Anna Chalfoun (12:51):
I definitely think that becoming involved
with a society like TWS, ifwildlife is your interest early,
because that can really startto provide a community of
support for you.
Societies like TWS have reallydone that for me, and it makes
(13:14):
things a lot more fun, and youdefinitely feel like you have
this network of people to bounceideas off or get their advice
and their experiences.
Also, there are some.
So I did that as an undergrad,and I was told when I got
(13:50):
selected for a master's programand I had a two-year fellowship
that she said one of the thingsthat that helped me stand apart
was that I I got a smallpublication as an undergraduate.
It might seem like a smallthing, but it's a big thing for
that stage.
Right.
And of course, there there isan advantage for people that
(14:13):
happen to have goodundergraduate mentors, but you
can be proactive too if youdon't have that, really try to
seek that out, go to professors'office hours and say, hey, do
you have advice?
I think I'm interested in inthis avenue of wildlife
research.
What advice do what do I reallyneed to do to start building
(14:36):
that resume and towards thingslike graduate school?
Katie Perkins (15:20):
So let's say you know you've got a student coming
to visit.
You say you have hundreds ofapplications sometimes.
What makes a standout applicantfor you?
Anna Chalfoun (15:30):
I think one thing to be very mindful about is
when you craft, for example,your cover letter in response to
an opportunity, is really makethat tailored towards that
person's lab line of research.
Maybe if it's a specificposition that they are offering,
really do your research.
(15:51):
So don't just send the same oldform cover letter.
And I've unfortunately had somepeople that even forgot to
change the, you know, dearProfessor Smith.
And it's like, well, that'sit's an immediate turnoff,
right?
That's maybe an egregiousexample, but really do your
research.
Go into the primary literatureto show that you have some
(16:12):
understanding for what thatproject might look like.
Really think as deeply as youcan at that stage about what you
think you might be interestedin.
Again, maybe you are onlyinterested in a particular
taxon.
Maybe you're only interested instudying bears.
That's fine.
Like be true to yourself.
You might need to be a littleflexible to get to those
(16:35):
ultimate goals.
But even more importantly,what's going to be impressive to
a potential advisor is thatyou've thought about who you are
and what sorts of researchquestions really motivate you.
Again, is it behavior, is itpopulations, is it biodiversity,
is it management, is itharvest, et cetera, et cetera?
Katie Perkins (16:57):
Yeah.
So you make it through thestage, you pick your graduate
student, you start working,everything's all fine and dandy,
but eventually conflict arisesbecause we're only humans.
What is your advice for whenconflict starts to bubble up?
What do you do as a professorand what would you recommend
students to do?
Anna Chalfoun (17:15):
Yeah, I think that in life in general, not in
just in our field, theinterpersonal stuff is, I guess
I'll just say for me, is some ofthe most challenging things
that that we deal with.
And I think some of this comeswith mindfulness and the extent
to which you really think thingsthrough in terms of skills to
(17:36):
deal with conflict.
And that it's funny that we'retalking about this because that
is another thing that we are nottrained to do.
One of the most wonderfulworkshops I ever took was a
couple of years ago at this theWyoming chapter of the Wildlife
Society conference.
There was a really wonderfulworkshop by Tara Koypers focused
(17:58):
on how to manage conflict in apositive way.
And one of the skills that shetaught us was pause, breathe,
and get curious.
And I know it sounds reallysimple, but I'm forever grateful
for that half-day workshop interms of we all can get
(18:20):
frustrated at times and stressedout and spread thin.
And that really can give youthat skill to go, okay, pause,
breathe, get curious.
Instead of maybe gettingconfrontational, ask people
questions about the situation.
And this is, of course, allmaybe easier said than done, but
(18:41):
it's it's I think it'ssomething that I will work on
myself for the rest of my lifeand not saying that it's easy.
Katie Perkins (18:48):
Right.
I think a lot for a lot ofscientists too, they're so
analytical and problem-solvingthat as soon as something
arises, they want to get to thebottom of it.
And and that's such greatadvice of like you need to take
a step back and try to see theproblem from multiple angles
before you you develop a gameplan because you know sometimes
you just need some time to cooloff.
I know that I get into littletips here and there, and and I
(19:11):
really, you know, I they justcaught me at a bad time, and I
just needed to take a step backand and see that.
Anna Chalfoun (19:16):
Yeah, well said.
And and try the pausing helpsyou get that context and maybe
start to see things from anotherperson's perspective.
Katie Perkins (19:28):
What is your balance between structure and
guidance and independence withyour graduate students?
Anna Chalfoun (19:36):
Yeah, and I'm sure you will hear a lot of
career or late career people saythat the reality is that every
student, every person is sounique in their needs, their
strengths, their challenges.
And so part of my role as I seeit is when I'm getting to know
(19:58):
a new student, trying to get aflavor for what are their
natural strengths, where do theyneed that extra guidance?
And I do not have one specificmenu for every student.
It's what do you feel like youneed to be successful?
You tell me what you need, andI will make it happen.
(20:20):
If you need to have a scheduledmeeting with me every week,
that's fine.
If you want more freedom, andthat's particularly more for the
established students that arejust off and rolling.
I don't maybe I won't evenconnect with them for a couple
of weeks, although I feel like Igenuinely appreciate regular
(20:44):
communication no matter how.
And those are the relationshipsthat I value the most is when
we still are getting togetherand talking ideas.
And even if things are goingwell, it's I mean, that's really
the fun part of it too, right?
Katie Perkins (20:58):
Definitely.
That's so important to rememberthat.
We're all unique, we're alldifferent, and you know, you can
kind of have these baseprinciples, but you really do
just have to have that periodwhere you're learning each other
and and understanding what'shappening.
Anna Chalfoun (21:12):
Absolutely.
Katie Perkins (21:13):
In that period, well, I guess you know, you've
had many students over theyears, and the ones that I've
met have said that it's a verypositive experience to be in
your lab.
So, what you know steps orinitiatives are you setting up
from day one, no matter who isin your lab, that help foster
that environment?
Are you getting togetherregularly?
(21:34):
And um, do you have groupchats?
Do you encourage your otherstudents to become friends with
each other and collaborate witheach other?
What does that look like?
Anna Chalfoun (21:42):
Yeah.
So I think the first step islike we talked earlier, is any
new folks that you bring intothat mix to have them vetted in
terms of interacting with all ofus to be able to try on whether
it makes sense for to bringthis person into the fold.
The other thing that I will dois I give my students some
(22:04):
ownership in that decision.
Of course, I ultimately getveto power, but generally we are
on the same page in terms oflike, oh yeah, it seems like
this person would be a greatfit.
They seem to have whatevercharacteristics that fit this
opportunity.
The other thing that we do iswe have weekly lab meetings, and
(22:27):
I insist that those be studentfocused and led.
So I don't dictate to thestudents, hey, here's what we're
doing this semester in labmeeting.
It's no, let's get together inthe beginning of each semester,
talk about what's going on witheverybody.
Some semesters we will choose atopic and follow that through
(22:49):
with each other.
Maybe we haven't done this yet,but we've talked about maybe
having that culminate in amanuscript together.
Other than that, students willtake a particular week and they
will focus that lab session onwhatever is current and relevant
for them.
And I really try to give themthe ownership of that process
(23:12):
and that time.
And I also encourage our lab tobe good citizens, to attend
departmental seminars, to meetwith invited speakers,
participate in socials where itmakes sense.
Yeah.
And then we try to get togetherin a fun context every now and
(23:32):
then.
I think that's reallyimportant.
And certainly to celebrate whenpeople in the lab have
successes, have defenses, uhdefend their thesis or their
dissertation or pass theircomps, etc.
That really makes it more funto have that sense of family and
community in the lab.
Katie Perkins (23:51):
Yeah.
Oftentimes a lot of thesestudents are coming out of
state.
I think that's way more commonfor graduate degrees is for
students to be coming from allover.
So to create, like it's reallyon the professor and the, you
know, the leader of the lab tocreate these community spaces
where students can feel safe andcan thrive.
Anna Chalfoun (24:10):
Absolutely.
I uh my students come from allover the country.
So that's a very good point.
Katie Perkins (24:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My my short stint in a lab asan undergrad.
Every year we went to the cornmaze, and I just remember being
so frightened as an undergrad.
But it by the end of the night,it was so lovely.
I actually knew these graduatestudents that I'd be seeing in
and out.
And because obviously I was acommunications student trying to
learn undergraduate research.
(24:36):
So I was really sticking outlike a store thumb.
And that's why activities andthings like this are so, so
important.
I'm a firsthand example of howimportant it is to drop the
science, drop the education, andremember that we're all people,
we all want to connect.
We all want these a space wherewe can feel seen and feel
heard.
Anna Chalfoun (24:55):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And that reminds me that it'salso nice to have diversity of
stages within the lab.
So maybe you have, and everyonehas their own preferences in
terms of that composition, butyou know, you can have undergrad
researchers or interns, uh,definitely field assistants or
lab assistants.
(25:15):
And then you have master'sstudents and you have PhD
students and you can havepostdocs.
And so it can be very nice tohave a nice mix of that
hierarchy so that people canalso learn from their peers and
not just completely rely on meor or other committee members,
et cetera.
Katie Perkins (25:35):
And then that's another great opportunity.
We talk about, you know, we'renot trained in these things, but
if you're creating a labenvironment where this flow of
knowledge is going up and down,then you're giving them
leadership skills, you're givingthem teaching opportunities.
And if they do decide to pursueacademics, then you know,
you've set up a better professorfor that.
And that what an impact thatprofessors and lab leaders can
(25:58):
really have on this profession.
Anna Chalfoun (26:00):
Yeah.
And that reminds me to say thatI really think that some of the
most, for lack of a betterword, successful graduate
students are maybe the ones thatget the most out of the
experience are those that divein in all avenues.
So graduate school is so muchmore than taking classes.
(26:22):
At that stage, you are workingtowards becoming actually more
of a peer and a colleague and acollaborator.
And a lot of times you'restarting to question a lot of
the things that maybe you wereforced to memorize as an
undergrad.
And that's a process ofscience, right?
It's like, have we reallycritically thought that through?
(26:43):
And I think that's a real funpart of being a graduate
student, but sometimes it's alittle bit of an adjustment
period from that undergrad to tograduate jury transition.
It can be a little surprisingto folks, and I have to explain
to them like it's okay to reallyquestion and to think
critically about these things.
(27:03):
And but that can be a reallyfun process to dive into and
also really taking advantage ofall the opportunities outside of
classes, outside of your lab.
Take advantage of a lot ofdepartments.
I would say most, if not all,have, for example, a guest
(27:24):
seminar speaker series.
Those can be some real sharpup-and-coming researchers that
that give seminars.
Those can be some reallywell-established people in the
field.
Go and listen and ask questionsand participate and sign up to
meet with people.
If not individually, then ifyour lab is not slated to meet
(27:46):
with that person, recommendthat.
Dive in, be engaged, go toconferences if you're able to
present your work, get involvedin research if you're interested
in research early, be curious.
I think that's a huge part ofsuccess in our field, is being
curious.
Katie Perkins (28:04):
Definitely.
What's something you wish youmaybe would have known before
developing your lab?
Anna Chalfoun (28:10):
Before developing my lab.
Oh my gosh, I wish I knew allthe things.
I wish I knew myself better atthe time.
I I wish I had more training inreally fundamental things like
navigating diverse personalitiesand various forms of conflict
(28:34):
because, like we discussedearlier, it's inevitable and
it's not, it's not an abnormalthing.
It's just how do you,particularly if you're stressed
out and spread thin, how do younavigate those situations with
grace?
I feel like I'm gonna belearning new skills forever and
ever.
Yeah, there's so many skillsthat are part of our jobs, and
(28:56):
we're just doing the best we canwith what we know at the time,
right?
Right.
Katie Perkins (29:00):
So knowing all that you know now at your stage
here, what advice can you give?
Like, is there any piece ofadvice that you find yourself
giving out time and time again?
Anna Chalfoun (29:11):
Yeah, I guess just really emphasizing that
curiosity and diving in, notbeing passive, really going
after what you want.
I think one thing to keep inmind when you are a prospective
student looking foropportunities, faculty I mean,
most people were extremelyspread thin, right?
(29:34):
I obtain probably fourinquiries per week throughout
the year of people potentiallyinterested in my lab.
When I do advertise forparticular positions, again,
there can be 50 to 100applications.
And so, again, really thinkinghard about what makes you tick,
getting that experience outsideof your academic environment,
(29:58):
diving in, being curious, andarticulating that you've really
thought about what that labfocuses on and doing your
research in terms of thosepublications relative to the lab
and the type of work that'sdone there, and making sure that
you're a good fit in thatparticular lab.
Katie Perkins (30:17):
Definitely.
And for professors, what advicecan you give them?
Oh my goodness.
Anna Chalfoun (30:23):
That's this is I don't know why I I just struggle
with this more than who am I togive advice to other
professors, right?
Because we're we're all veryunique and we all have different
goals and different researchfoci.
But I definitely Think thatpeople talk about work-life
(30:43):
balance, which I think isimportant, making sure that
you're finding environments thatwork for you.
One inside scoop is that Ididn't necessarily know as a
young professional that I wasgoing to end up in academia.
In fact, some of the thingsthat I observed as a graduate
student made me think that maybethat wasn't the life for me
(31:05):
because I didn't want to be inan environment that wasn't
supportive and that maybe wastoo competitive because I
already put a lot of pressure onmyself.
But there are particulardepartments or universities or
places that place a greateremphasis on collegiality and
(31:26):
supporting one another insteadof that competitive side of
things.
And so being really mindfulabout the environment in which
you feel like you're going tothrive.
Katie Perkins (31:35):
That's really great.
Well, Anna, thank you so much.
This was really awesome.
And we really appreciate havingyou on the podcast.
Thank you so much, Katie.
Thanks for joining us on theOur Wild Lives Podcast.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto wildlife science, explore
new career paths, or grow yourpersonal network, visit us at
wildlife.org.
Follow at the Wildlife Societyon social media, and subscribe
(31:57):
wherever you listen so you nevermiss out on a new episode.
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
So, you got into wildlife to work with the
animals, but no one actuallytold you how much time you'd be
spending managing people.
We feel you.
In this episode, I sit downwith Anna Shalfun in Pinedale,
Wyoming to talk about building apositive lab culture, mentoring
the next generation, andnavigating the human side of a
science career.
(00:22):
When you meet her students,they rave about her supportive
leadership, and today she'sgiving us the behind-the-scenes
look into how she builds that.
We uncover her path fromundecided undergrad to co-op
unit scientists, how to handlelab conflict, and advice for
professors, students, andadvisors alike.
If you work with people,spoiler alert, you do, you're
(00:43):
gonna want to hear this one.
Anna Chalfoun (01:03):
Yeah, so I was a biological science undergrad,
and I think a lot of young folksthat end up in wildlife didn't
even realize that this was apotential career that one could
pursue.
And so I dabbled back and forthwith different majors and
(01:24):
thought I was going to bepre-vet, worked at a vet clinic
at various points.
And then in my junior year, Itook this conservation biology
class and I just kind of mindblown wide open, and I thought,
wow, this is me, this is what Iwant to do.
And so from there I got a widevariety of field experiences,
(01:47):
uh, did my master's degree andthen my PhD, and was able to
land my dream job as a co-opunit scientist at the Wyoming
Cooperative Fish and WildlifeResearch Unit, which is part of
the U.S.
Geological Surveys CRU program,cooperative research units
(02:08):
program.
Katie Perkins (02:09):
So today you're a professor and you've got this
lab of students, and you're alsostill doing research of your
own, or what does that looklike?
Anna Chalfoun (02:18):
Yeah, as co-op unit scientists, we have three
main foci in our jobs.
One is to conduct research thatmeets the informational needs
of our state and federalcooperators.
And the next is to help trainthe next generation of wildlife
biologists, and the third is toprovide technical assistance
(02:40):
also to our cooperators.
So I would say that the studentpart of it is the most
rewarding and meaningful part ofthat, of course, in combination
with getting to do sciencethat, of course, we're all very
passionate about.
Katie Perkins (02:57):
Right.
And that's exactly what we'rehere to talk about today is that
process of training newwildlife professionals, creating
labs, and being in, you know, auniversity setting, and all of
the tips and tricks and adviceand fails and lessons that we've
learned along the way oftraining that next generation.
So did you always want to be amentor?
Anna Chalfoun (03:18):
It's funny because I was not one of those
young people that, you know,when I was six years old, I
said, I want to be a professor.
Absolutely not.
For me, it was along the way, Ijust tried to be true to myself
and I tried different thingsand I said yay or nay along the
way.
And that's why I think gettingexperiential experiences, sorry,
(03:39):
that's redundant, but along theway, in a in addition to your
academic course of training, isreally, really critical.
And and to me at least, too,those experiential opportunities
are what really stuck to mybones and were very influential
in guiding me to what I wasreally passionate about and what
I found meaningful.
Katie Perkins (04:00):
Do you have a story from one of those
experiences you're talking aboutthat kind of sticks out in your
head?
Gosh, they all really do.
Anna Chalfoun (04:08):
So I got my start doing a research experience for
undergraduates in Cape Cod,Massachusetts, studying bivalve
growth.
So two species of clams, andhow they grew in relation to
different levels of nutrientloading in three different
(04:30):
estuaries.
And that is a bit far off fromwhere I ended up, but that just
goes to show you that some ofthese fundamental skills, that,
for example, was an experiencethat made me clued into, oh wow,
I really love this process ofscience.
And then after that, I triedsome more terrestrial
(04:53):
opportunities because I realizedthere might be more
opportunities in terrestrialsystems.
And really, I was justpassionate about the natural
world in general and animals inthe wild.
So I think almost anyexperience relevant to where you
think you might end up, youwill learn and you will get your
(05:15):
feet wet, and they can all bereally valuable.
Katie Perkins (05:19):
Yeah, we hear that all the time.
So that's definitely definitelytrue, and such a key piece of
advice that you should reallytake to heart.
How about some advice for maybeyoung professors just starting
out?
What does that process looklike of becoming a professor?
Anna Chalfoun (05:36):
Oh my gosh.
The irony in this topic is thatunlike, so I have friends that
are elementary and high schoolteachers, and they go through a
really rigorous process ofcertification and training of
how to teach for those jobs.
(05:56):
And hopefully this will givepeople out there a little bit of
grace for faculty in the sensethat most of us do not go
through any sort of technicaltraining for some of these
really critical skills, which ishow do you build a lab?
How do you do grantsmanagement?
How do you select students?
(06:17):
How do you deal withinterpersonal conflicts?
Because that's common, right?
It's not a bad thing, it's justnormal.
And so a lot of that is if youhappen to have really good
mentors, if you are somebodythat is open to seeking advice,
talking to people that have gonethrough the things that you
(06:38):
aspire to do.
And then a lot of it islearning along the way.
Definitely.
Katie Perkins (06:44):
So let's get into that.
Let's get into, you know, whatadvice you might have for them.
So step one, you become aprofessor and you've got do you
have the money to hire agraduate student, or is that
something that you're going togo out and write grants for?
And then you start the graduatestudent process.
Anna Chalfoun (07:01):
It really depends on your position.
So typical faculty lines willbe given some startup packages
or a startup package.
One advice, particularly, Iwill say, for young female
professionals that tend not toadvocate for themselves as
strongly sometimes as males, isthat don't take the first offer
(07:26):
and really think carefully aboutwhat you need to successfully
establish and build your lab andask for that as long as it's
reasonable is one really keypoint of advice.
And then again, be true toyourself in terms of what makes
sense for the structure andcomposition of your lab.
(07:47):
What are the main researchthrusts that you are super
passionate about and which doyou want to tackle first?
And how do you navigate thatwith your teaching load?
And yeah, it's a it's a littlecomplicated and context
dependent, but I guess those aresome things that come first to
mind.
Katie Perkins (08:07):
Yeah, definitely.
Figure out where yourpriorities are and what you need
and go from there.
So let's say you've done that,you you know what you're gonna
research, you've got some money.
Now you just put out your veryfirst posting for a graduate
student.
What are we doing now?
Anna Chalfoun (08:23):
Yeah, so one uh wonderful thing about some time
into the faculty experience isthat you will learn the type of
people with which you are themost compatible and the types of
traits in students that youlook for.
And over time as well, you willhave people seeking out you as
(08:48):
an advisor without even havingto advertise.
Even now, however, I still,when I do advertise for graduate
positions, I can get, you know,a hundred applicants, which in
some ways is kind ofheartbreaking, right?
Because that means there are alot of people that are
passionate about the wildlifefield, and we don't necessarily
(09:08):
have those graduate positions orjobs afterwards for that
matter.
But I really have honed in onthe types of things that I look
for in a student.
And one thing I think is superhelpful to me that I now do for
(09:29):
every incoming student is Ibring them to the campus of
University of Wyoming.
I have them meet with meindividually, get some
one-on-one.
I have them meet with mystudents individually and maybe
some other students and facultyin the department and the
program.
And then we also do some sortof social activity together,
(09:53):
whether it's, you know, apotluck at my house or going out
to a local establishment orsomething.
And that gives me, incombination with the students'
record and their interview, etcetera, a really good sense for
will this person fit into mylab?
And I really personally striveto have a collaborative,
(10:16):
supportive, almost family-likelab atmosphere.
And so we really want tosustain that.
And so having that person comeand interact with everyone
really helps keep that going.
Katie Perkins (10:28):
Right.
I think you know, you aresigning on and these students
are signing on to spend, youknow, anywhere from two to six
years together.
That's a really, really that'slike a committed relationship
that you're you're seeking,you're uh, you know, testing the
waters for.
And so talking from a studentside of things, what should the
student be looking for in apotential advisor and then maybe
(10:49):
flip-flop it and tell me, youknow, what kind of specific
traits are you looking for in astudent?
Anna Chalfoun (10:54):
I love this question.
It really hits home because Ifeel like I was one of those
people that didn't understandwhat some of us now refer to as
the hidden curriculum, which isthings like applying for a
master's program or a PhD forthat matter, is not the same as
applying for undergraduateprograms.
Really, at that point, the keything is to establish a
(11:18):
connection with a potentialadvisor.
If you have that, a lot ofother things will fall into
place, but you can't just expectto send out a random forum
letter to every single potentialadvisor and program and expect
that you're gonna hit thejackpot.
So you really need to thinkabout what sorts of questions
(11:43):
really interest you.
Are you interested in animalbehavior?
Are you interested in whatdrives population growth?
Are you interested in patternsof biodiversity?
Really try to think thosethings through.
Do some reading of the primaryliterature, look up some of the,
at least some of the key papersthat have come out of that
person's lab.
And it, like you said, it's atwo-way street.
(12:06):
It's a huge commitment on bothparties.
And so, even really importantbefore you make a final decision
to get the real skinny fromthose current or previous lab
members of that professor tomake sure that that really makes
sense in terms of a fit andyour personalities and your
goals and what you know you needfrom a mentor.
(12:29):
Because there's, let's face it,a lot of variation in people's
mentoring styles.
Katie Perkins (12:35):
Right.
You talk about developing thoserelationships.
Where should students beseeking out opportunities to
connect with people andacademics and to learn more
about these?
Or should they go toconferences?
Should they be a part of localsocieties?
Like what should they be doing?
Anna Chalfoun (12:51):
I definitely think that becoming involved
with a society like TWS, ifwildlife is your interest early,
because that can really startto provide a community of
support for you.
Societies like TWS have reallydone that for me, and it makes
(13:14):
things a lot more fun, and youdefinitely feel like you have
this network of people to bounceideas off or get their advice
and their experiences.
Also, there are some.
So I did that as an undergrad,and I was told when I got
(13:50):
selected for a master's programand I had a two-year fellowship
that she said one of the thingsthat that helped me stand apart
was that I I got a smallpublication as an undergraduate.
It might seem like a smallthing, but it's a big thing for
that stage.
Right.
And of course, there there isan advantage for people that
(14:13):
happen to have goodundergraduate mentors, but you
can be proactive too if youdon't have that, really try to
seek that out, go to professors'office hours and say, hey, do
you have advice?
I think I'm interested in inthis avenue of wildlife
research.
What advice do what do I reallyneed to do to start building
(14:36):
that resume and towards thingslike graduate school?
Katie Perkins (15:20):
So let's say you know you've got a student coming
to visit.
You say you have hundreds ofapplications sometimes.
What makes a standout applicantfor you?
Anna Chalfoun (15:30):
I think one thing to be very mindful about is
when you craft, for example,your cover letter in response to
an opportunity, is really makethat tailored towards that
person's lab line of research.
Maybe if it's a specificposition that they are offering,
really do your research.
(15:51):
So don't just send the same oldform cover letter.
And I've unfortunately had somepeople that even forgot to
change the, you know, dearProfessor Smith.
And it's like, well, that'sit's an immediate turnoff,
right?
That's maybe an egregiousexample, but really do your
research.
Go into the primary literatureto show that you have some
(16:12):
understanding for what thatproject might look like.
Really think as deeply as youcan at that stage about what you
think you might be interestedin.
Again, maybe you are onlyinterested in a particular
taxon.
Maybe you're only interested instudying bears.
That's fine.
Like be true to yourself.
You might need to be a littleflexible to get to those
(16:35):
ultimate goals.
But even more importantly,what's going to be impressive to
a potential advisor is thatyou've thought about who you are
and what sorts of researchquestions really motivate you.
Again, is it behavior, is itpopulations, is it biodiversity,
is it management, is itharvest, et cetera, et cetera?
Katie Perkins (16:57):
Yeah.
So you make it through thestage, you pick your graduate
student, you start working,everything's all fine and dandy,
but eventually conflict arisesbecause we're only humans.
What is your advice for whenconflict starts to bubble up?
What do you do as a professorand what would you recommend
students to do?
Anna Chalfoun (17:15):
Yeah, I think that in life in general, not in
just in our field, theinterpersonal stuff is, I guess
I'll just say for me, is some ofthe most challenging things
that that we deal with.
And I think some of this comeswith mindfulness and the extent
to which you really think thingsthrough in terms of skills to
(17:36):
deal with conflict.
And that it's funny that we'retalking about this because that
is another thing that we are nottrained to do.
One of the most wonderfulworkshops I ever took was a
couple of years ago at this theWyoming chapter of the Wildlife
Society conference.
There was a really wonderfulworkshop by Tara Koypers focused
(17:58):
on how to manage conflict in apositive way.
And one of the skills that shetaught us was pause, breathe,
and get curious.
And I know it sounds reallysimple, but I'm forever grateful
for that half-day workshop interms of we all can get
(18:20):
frustrated at times and stressedout and spread thin.
And that really can give youthat skill to go, okay, pause,
breathe, get curious.
Instead of maybe gettingconfrontational, ask people
questions about the situation.
And this is, of course, allmaybe easier said than done, but
(18:41):
it's it's I think it'ssomething that I will work on
myself for the rest of my lifeand not saying that it's easy.
Katie Perkins (18:48):
Right.
I think a lot for a lot ofscientists too, they're so
analytical and problem-solvingthat as soon as something
arises, they want to get to thebottom of it.
And and that's such greatadvice of like you need to take
a step back and try to see theproblem from multiple angles
before you you develop a gameplan because you know sometimes
you just need some time to cooloff.
I know that I get into littletips here and there, and and I
(19:11):
really, you know, I they justcaught me at a bad time, and I
just needed to take a step backand and see that.
Anna Chalfoun (19:16):
Yeah, well said.
And and try the pausing helpsyou get that context and maybe
start to see things from anotherperson's perspective.
Katie Perkins (19:28):
What is your balance between structure and
guidance and independence withyour graduate students?
Anna Chalfoun (19:36):
Yeah, and I'm sure you will hear a lot of
career or late career people saythat the reality is that every
student, every person is sounique in their needs, their
strengths, their challenges.
And so part of my role as I seeit is when I'm getting to know
(19:58):
a new student, trying to get aflavor for what are their
natural strengths, where do theyneed that extra guidance?
And I do not have one specificmenu for every student.
It's what do you feel like youneed to be successful?
You tell me what you need, andI will make it happen.
(20:20):
If you need to have a scheduledmeeting with me every week,
that's fine.
If you want more freedom, andthat's particularly more for the
established students that arejust off and rolling.
I don't maybe I won't evenconnect with them for a couple
of weeks, although I feel like Igenuinely appreciate regular
(20:44):
communication no matter how.
And those are the relationshipsthat I value the most is when
we still are getting togetherand talking ideas.
And even if things are goingwell, it's I mean, that's really
the fun part of it too, right?
Katie Perkins (20:58):
Definitely.
That's so important to rememberthat.
We're all unique, we're alldifferent, and you know, you can
kind of have these baseprinciples, but you really do
just have to have that periodwhere you're learning each other
and and understanding what'shappening.
Anna Chalfoun (21:12):
Absolutely.
Katie Perkins (21:13):
In that period, well, I guess you know, you've
had many students over theyears, and the ones that I've
met have said that it's a verypositive experience to be in
your lab.
So, what you know steps orinitiatives are you setting up
from day one, no matter who isin your lab, that help foster
that environment?
Are you getting togetherregularly?
(21:34):
And um, do you have groupchats?
Do you encourage your otherstudents to become friends with
each other and collaborate witheach other?
What does that look like?
Anna Chalfoun (21:42):
Yeah.
So I think the first step islike we talked earlier, is any
new folks that you bring intothat mix to have them vetted in
terms of interacting with all ofus to be able to try on whether
it makes sense for to bringthis person into the fold.
The other thing that I will dois I give my students some
(22:04):
ownership in that decision.
Of course, I ultimately getveto power, but generally we are
on the same page in terms oflike, oh yeah, it seems like
this person would be a greatfit.
They seem to have whatevercharacteristics that fit this
opportunity.
The other thing that we do iswe have weekly lab meetings, and
(22:27):
I insist that those be studentfocused and led.
So I don't dictate to thestudents, hey, here's what we're
doing this semester in labmeeting.
It's no, let's get together inthe beginning of each semester,
talk about what's going on witheverybody.
Some semesters we will choose atopic and follow that through
(22:49):
with each other.
Maybe we haven't done this yet,but we've talked about maybe
having that culminate in amanuscript together.
Other than that, students willtake a particular week and they
will focus that lab session onwhatever is current and relevant
for them.
And I really try to give themthe ownership of that process
(23:12):
and that time.
And I also encourage our lab tobe good citizens, to attend
departmental seminars, to meetwith invited speakers,
participate in socials where itmakes sense.
Yeah.
And then we try to get togetherin a fun context every now and
(23:32):
then.
I think that's reallyimportant.
And certainly to celebrate whenpeople in the lab have
successes, have defenses, uhdefend their thesis or their
dissertation or pass theircomps, etc.
That really makes it more funto have that sense of family and
community in the lab.
Katie Perkins (23:51):
Yeah.
Oftentimes a lot of thesestudents are coming out of
state.
I think that's way more commonfor graduate degrees is for
students to be coming from allover.
So to create, like it's reallyon the professor and the, you
know, the leader of the lab tocreate these community spaces
where students can feel safe andcan thrive.
Anna Chalfoun (24:10):
Absolutely.
I uh my students come from allover the country.
So that's a very good point.
Katie Perkins (24:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My my short stint in a lab asan undergrad.
Every year we went to the cornmaze, and I just remember being
so frightened as an undergrad.
But it by the end of the night,it was so lovely.
I actually knew these graduatestudents that I'd be seeing in
and out.
And because obviously I was acommunications student trying to
learn undergraduate research.
(24:36):
So I was really sticking outlike a store thumb.
And that's why activities andthings like this are so, so
important.
I'm a firsthand example of howimportant it is to drop the
science, drop the education, andremember that we're all people,
we all want to connect.
We all want these a space wherewe can feel seen and feel
heard.
Anna Chalfoun (24:55):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And that reminds me that it'salso nice to have diversity of
stages within the lab.
So maybe you have, and everyonehas their own preferences in
terms of that composition, butyou know, you can have undergrad
researchers or interns, uh,definitely field assistants or
lab assistants.
(25:15):
And then you have master'sstudents and you have PhD
students and you can havepostdocs.
And so it can be very nice tohave a nice mix of that
hierarchy so that people canalso learn from their peers and
not just completely rely on meor or other committee members,
et cetera.
Katie Perkins (25:35):
And then that's another great opportunity.
We talk about, you know, we'renot trained in these things, but
if you're creating a labenvironment where this flow of
knowledge is going up and down,then you're giving them
leadership skills, you're givingthem teaching opportunities.
And if they do decide to pursueacademics, then you know,
you've set up a better professorfor that.
And that what an impact thatprofessors and lab leaders can
(25:58):
really have on this profession.
Anna Chalfoun (26:00):
Yeah.
And that reminds me to say thatI really think that some of the
most, for lack of a betterword, successful graduate
students are maybe the ones thatget the most out of the
experience are those that divein in all avenues.
So graduate school is so muchmore than taking classes.
(26:22):
At that stage, you are workingtowards becoming actually more
of a peer and a colleague and acollaborator.
And a lot of times you'restarting to question a lot of
the things that maybe you wereforced to memorize as an
undergrad.
And that's a process ofscience, right?
It's like, have we reallycritically thought that through?
(26:43):
And I think that's a real funpart of being a graduate
student, but sometimes it's alittle bit of an adjustment
period from that undergrad to tograduate jury transition.
It can be a little surprisingto folks, and I have to explain
to them like it's okay to reallyquestion and to think
critically about these things.
(27:03):
And but that can be a reallyfun process to dive into and
also really taking advantage ofall the opportunities outside of
classes, outside of your lab.
Take advantage of a lot ofdepartments.
I would say most, if not all,have, for example, a guest
(27:24):
seminar speaker series.
Those can be some real sharpup-and-coming researchers that
that give seminars.
Those can be some reallywell-established people in the
field.
Go and listen and ask questionsand participate and sign up to
meet with people.
If not individually, then ifyour lab is not slated to meet
(27:46):
with that person, recommendthat.
Dive in, be engaged, go toconferences if you're able to
present your work, get involvedin research if you're interested
in research early, be curious.
I think that's a huge part ofsuccess in our field, is being
curious.
Katie Perkins (28:04):
Definitely.
What's something you wish youmaybe would have known before
developing your lab?
Anna Chalfoun (28:10):
Before developing my lab.
Oh my gosh, I wish I knew allthe things.
I wish I knew myself better atthe time.
I I wish I had more training inreally fundamental things like
navigating diverse personalitiesand various forms of conflict
(28:34):
because, like we discussedearlier, it's inevitable and
it's not, it's not an abnormalthing.
It's just how do you,particularly if you're stressed
out and spread thin, how do younavigate those situations with
grace?
I feel like I'm gonna belearning new skills forever and
ever.
Yeah, there's so many skillsthat are part of our jobs, and
(28:56):
we're just doing the best we canwith what we know at the time,
right?
Right.
Katie Perkins (29:00):
So knowing all that you know now at your stage
here, what advice can you give?
Like, is there any piece ofadvice that you find yourself
giving out time and time again?
Anna Chalfoun (29:11):
Yeah, I guess just really emphasizing that
curiosity and diving in, notbeing passive, really going
after what you want.
I think one thing to keep inmind when you are a prospective
student looking foropportunities, faculty I mean,
most people were extremelyspread thin, right?
(29:34):
I obtain probably fourinquiries per week throughout
the year of people potentiallyinterested in my lab.
When I do advertise forparticular positions, again,
there can be 50 to 100applications.
And so, again, really thinkinghard about what makes you tick,
getting that experience outsideof your academic environment,
(29:58):
diving in, being curious, andarticulating that you've really
thought about what that labfocuses on and doing your
research in terms of thosepublications relative to the lab
and the type of work that'sdone there, and making sure that
you're a good fit in thatparticular lab.
Katie Perkins (30:17):
Definitely.
And for professors, what advicecan you give them?
Oh my goodness.
Anna Chalfoun (30:23):
That's this is I don't know why I I just struggle
with this more than who am I togive advice to other
professors, right?
Because we're we're all veryunique and we all have different
goals and different researchfoci.
But I definitely Think thatpeople talk about work-life
(30:43):
balance, which I think isimportant, making sure that
you're finding environments thatwork for you.
One inside scoop is that Ididn't necessarily know as a
young professional that I wasgoing to end up in academia.
In fact, some of the thingsthat I observed as a graduate
student made me think that maybethat wasn't the life for me
(31:05):
because I didn't want to be inan environment that wasn't
supportive and that maybe wastoo competitive because I
already put a lot of pressure onmyself.
But there are particulardepartments or universities or
places that place a greateremphasis on collegiality and
(31:26):
supporting one another insteadof that competitive side of
things.
And so being really mindfulabout the environment in which
you feel like you're going tothrive.
Katie Perkins (31:35):
That's really great.
Well, Anna, thank you so much.
This was really awesome.
And we really appreciate havingyou on the podcast.
Thank you so much, Katie.
Thanks for joining us on theOur Wild Lives Podcast.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto wildlife science, explore
new career paths, or grow yourpersonal network, visit us at
wildlife.org.
Follow at the Wildlife Societyon social media, and subscribe
(31:57):
wherever you listen so you nevermiss out on a new episode.
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
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