October 3, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, we delve into the life of sagebrush songbirds with Emily Schertzer, a PhD candidate at the University of Wyoming. Emily shares her journey into ornithology, her methods for tracking these tiny birds, and the impact of human development and climate change on their habitats. We explore the intricacies of these songbirds' lives, their nesting habits, migration patterns, and the importance of clear scientific communication. Emily also describes the different species she studies, including Brewer's sparrows, sagebrush sparrows, and sage thrashers, and their interactions with each other and their environment. Lastly, we discuss the future of songbird conservation and the collaborative efforts needed to protect these migratory species.
00:00 Introduction to Sagebrush Songbirds
00:08 Meet Emily Schertzer: A Journey into Ornithology
01:04 Understanding Songbirds and Their Habitats
01:44 Emily's Path to Bird Research
02:34 Field Research in Sagebrush Habitats
04:42 Tracking Tiny Birds Across Continents
07:12 Challenges and Discoveries in Bird Tracking
07:56 The Importance of Sagebrush Habitat
11:07 Human Impact and Climate Change
12:24 Post-Fledging Period: A Critical Time
15:16 The Role of Communication in Science
18:02 The Significance of Bird Conservation
20:00 Migration Patterns and Connectivity
25:33 Predators and Threats to Songbirds
26:19 Conclusion
Learn more
Brewer's Sparrow Overview, All About Birds, Cornell Lab of Ornithology
Sage Thrasher Overview, All About Birds, Cornell Lab of Ornithology
Sagebrush Sparrow Overview, All About Birds, Cornell Lab of Ornithology
Wyoming Cooperative Research Unit
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
What's life like for a songbird that weighs less than
10 paperclips?
And how are scientists keepingtabs on them?
In this episode, I chat withEmily Schertzer, a PhD candidate
at the University of Wyoming,about her research on sagebrush
songbirds.
We get into her unexpected pathinto ornithology, how she tracks
tiny birds traveling across thecontinent, and how human
(00:23):
development and climate changeare reshaping their worlds.
We learn about the secret livesof sagebrush songbirds and why
clear scientific communicationis just as important as the
research itself.
(01:03):
Let's just break it down fromthe beginning.
What constitutes a songbird?
What, you know, what's thatdistinction?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
So songbirds, they're part of the uh order
passeriformis or passerines.
So typically they're smallerbirds, although something like a
crow or a raven is stillconsidered a songbird.
So they're different fromraptors.
Most of the small birds that yousee flying around are songbirds,
or they might be closely relatedto songbirds, something like a
woodpecker.
And the birds that I study aresparrows and then thrashers.
(01:31):
So sparrows, lots of differentsparrow species around.
Like in cities, you might seehouse sparrows, that's like a
kind of sparrow.
And then thrashers are relatedto mocking birds and in that
group, but they are allconsidered songbirds.
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
Awesome.
So how did you get into this?
Were you always a bird person?
Was it just kind of, you know,something for you to study to be
able to go to school?
Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Yeah, so I I did my undergrad at Cornell University,
and that's sort of what broughtme into the bird world because
Cornell has like a really bigbird program there, and you
might have heard of the CornellLab for Ontology.
So when I uh started inundergrad, I knew that I was
interested in conservation,biology, but I didn't really
know exactly what I wanted todo.
So I joined a lab because I wasinterested in doing research,
(02:14):
and that's kind of what led meto birds.
And I don't know, I remember thefirst time I held a bird, we
were banding chickadees and someother birds at bird feeders, and
it's just like an amazingfeeling to just realize how
complicated and interestingtheir lives are and get to see
that up close.
So I think that's really whatgot me really excited about
birds.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Let's get into your work now.
You're base in the sagebrushwhen you're doing field
research.
Explain to me exactly what we'redoing out in the field these
days.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yeah, so well, I'm actually done with collecting my
data, which is sort of nice.
But um, the last, oh gosh, fivesummers, I was going out um to
Pinedale, Wyoming, which is onthe western side of the state,
and working in sagebrush.
So all three of the species thatI study, which are brewer
sparrows, sagebrush sparrows,and sage thrashers, are
considered sagebrush associated,at least songbirds.
(03:02):
Some people call call themobligates, which means that they
require sagebrush habitat,although um it's a little bit
complicated.
I think brewer sparrows can be alittle bit more flexible than
that.
But um yeah, so in the summers,I would go out and I would catch
birds and band them.
So I put little bands on theirlegs that are colored so that I
can actually recite individualsfrom afar and know who they are.
(03:24):
And then I put out differenttags to track them.
So I was studying a fewdifferent periods and movement
during a few different periods,including the post-fledging
period, which is the time afterbirds leave the nest, but when
they're still in family groups.
And then I'm also studyingmigration.
So I'd catch birds, put tags onthem, let them go again, and
then track them, you know,outside of the breeding period.
(03:45):
But I did all my field workduring the breeding period
because it's a lot easier tostudy birds when they're on a
nest.
It's easy to find them, to trackindividuals, and so we would go
out, find nests, catch thosebirds, and then track them, you
know, over multiple years afterthat.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
All right, so you're not getting to go down to Mexico
and hang out with them whenthey're down there.
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
No, I wish.
I thought I was trying to findan excuse.
Well, a couple of my firstburrows actually go to Baja, and
so I've been like, oh my gosh, Ireally need to check out those
wintering grounds.
But no, I haven't been able todo that.
I think it would be goingforward a really cool
opportunity like to work withresearchers in other places.
And I think that's a really coolthing about migratory birds is
like no one country or person orregion like you know, owns these
(04:28):
birds.
They cover a lot of the globe,and so the birds in Wyoming
spend half the year down inMexico.
And I think it would be a reallygreat opportunity to collaborate
across different countries inthe future.
But yeah, I didn't have a chanceto do that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Yeah.
Awesome.
So let's get into how do youtrack because I got to hold one
of these, I can't remember whichone it was, but it was so small,
like the size of my thumb orsmaller.
What are you putting on them tobe able to track them from
Wyoming to Mexico and back?
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
Yeah, so these tags are super cool.
Um, people a lot smarter than mecame up with them maybe 20 years
ago now is when people startedusing these tags.
But the tags that I use to trackthem during migration are called
light-level geolocators.
And yeah, you pointed out thatthese birds are really small.
Brewer sprows uh are only like10 to 12 grams.
And we're required to put tagson that are less than 3% of
(05:21):
their body weight, because morethan that, the concern is that
it'll affect them and affecttheir survival.
And so that means that we haveto put on tags that are like 0.3
grams or smaller than that.
So the light-level GLA cuttersare super tiny, and all they are
are they have a little lightstock on them, and then they
have a tiny battery, and theycan just collect information.
(05:41):
They can't actually send outinformation because sending out
a signal would take too muchweight.
And so the tags just collectlight information, and I have to
catch the bird again the nextyear.
So I take the tag off thefollowing year, and then I get
this graph of light and time.
And I can tell based on thetiming of sunrise and sunset,
(06:02):
and also how quickly the sunrises and sets where the bird
was at a given time.
Because if you think about it,like you know, if you're far up
north in the summertime, thenyour days are gonna be super
long.
And also those sunrises andsunsets are gonna have a very
gentle slope versus if you'recloser to the tropics.
So you can actually tell wherethe bird was using that
information.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
That's really cool.
So how like how accurate isthat?
You kind of get, you know, likea between this latitude and that
latitude, or are you able topinpoint even more specific than
that?
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, it's um definitely not as accurate as
GPS.
And I think the average error is200 kilometers error in like
latitude and then about 50 inlongitude, but it does depend.
Um, so if a bird is in one placefor a long time, so if they go
to their wintering grounds andjust hang out there for a long
time, then we can get moreaccurate estimates of their
(06:54):
location.
Also, the timing of year canaffect it.
So, like around the equinox daylength is very similar across a
lot of the world during theequinox, and so sometimes it's
harder to pinpoint locationsduring that time, but then you
can pinpoint it at other times.
So it sort of depends.
But yeah, that's about theaverage error.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
That's so interesting.
So, how successful are you withthe birds that you're tagging
and then coming back to Wyomingand you being able to find them
again?
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
So, and that's another one of my questions is
trying to understand howfaithful they are to certain
sites.
And what we saw is we got abouta third of our birds back every
year.
So like 30 to 40 percent wouldcome back every year.
And so we got, I think, yeah, itwas about 30% of the tags back.
So I think I put out 150 and Igot back 45, so a little bit
(07:41):
less than a third.
Yeah, but then part of that isalso sometimes we would get
birds that came back and we sawthem and they had their tag on,
and I couldn't actually catchthem again because they get to
know me and they they know whatI'm up to.
So they learn your tricks.
Yeah, they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Yeah, so their habitat, you talk about them
being obligates, meaning that Idid not know that that meant
that they needed sagebrush.
There that same type ofsagebrush habitat is down in
Baja, Mexico, or are theychanging their habitat depending
on the time of year?
What is that like?
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Yeah, they probably are changing their habitat, and
it seems like from our uh datathey are.
So um they need sagebrush duringthe breeding season because they
build their nests in sagebrushshrubs most of the time.
But in the wintertime, they'rejust spending time in shrub step
habitat in general.
So it's still shrubby habitat,still like kind of similar
structure, but not necessarilysagebrush.
(08:33):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
So you spent a lot of time in the sagebrush, and I
think a lot of people don'treally understand the complexity
of that habitat, and I got tospend a week there with some of
your other lab mates, and so Ireally got to see, you know,
just how different and howvariety this habitat is, even
though it just looks like asagebrush seat.
So can you tell me a little bitabout like when you look out in
(08:55):
the sagebrush, what do you see?
What do you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Yeah, it is really complicated.
And you know, for me, I wasalways going out to the same
breeding sites every year.
So I spent five years out there,and like you just said, even
though it might look all thesame to someone who doesn't know
the area, you really get to knowdifferences in the habitats.
There's taller sagebrush, thereare areas called like Mima
mounds that with tall sagebrushand these draws with tall
(09:18):
sagebrush, and shortersagebrush.
And what's really cool is thatone thing I was doing with my
project was tracking adultsacross multiple years and trying
to understand how faithful theyare to certain sites.
And they also see the sagebrushthe way that like you and I do.
They they recognize verydistinct features.
And so we would have um,especially males, come back and
(09:40):
nest within the same 20 metersevery single year.
So they went all the way toMexico, but they recognize those
areas.
So when you're working outthere, you sort of start
thinking like a bird too, andyou can you can tell that there
are differences in the landscapeand you recognize areas and you
know it feels very familiar incertain areas and that kind of
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah.
So if I'm a songbird on thehousing market, what am I
looking for?
What's my ideal habitat?
Like where where are you goingto find these kinds of
songbirds?
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
It sort of depends on the species and sometimes
even the time of the summer,because they'll nest multiple
multiple times throughout thesummer, what kind of shrubs
they're looking for.
But things like burr sparrows, Iusually see them in sort of
larger sagebrush shrubs, butthen sagebrush sparrows, they
don't mind the really tinyshrubs.
Usually they prefer areas thatare a little bit denser with
(10:26):
shrubs.
Um, so if I'm in an area ofsagebrush that's kind of like
really short and sparse shrubs,then I won't find nests as much.
One thing that is not a goodidea if you're one of these
birds, but they don't seem torecognize this, is nesting near
things like natural gasdevelopment or human structures
can actually be really negativefor them.
In these areas, there areactually more rodents, which are
(10:46):
nest predators, and so your nestis less likely to be successful
if you're near humandevelopment.
However, these birds, it seemslike they don't seem to really
recognize that that's a problem,and they keep nesting in those
areas anyway.
So those are kind of some of thethings that they're looking for.
SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
Yeah, so you've been out there for five years.
How have you seen more humandevelopment?
Because a lot of the a lot ofyour area sites are on public
land, correct?
So then they're getting theseoil and gas leases.
How how have you seen thatevolution going back, you know,
five times of the impact thatthat's having on these species?
SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
A lot of our questions are related to natural
gas development and how that'sinfluencing these birds.
So we specifically chose sitesthat are spreading across the
gradient of natural gasdevelopment.
But they're continuing to addnew wells.
And so while I've been outthere, I've seen new wells go
in.
Um there's also uh a lot of liketruck traffic and things like
that.
A lot of times they have to mowdown the sagebrush to add in
(11:46):
pipelines and things like that.
So there's a lot of change onthe landscape from all that.
And then also another sort ofnebulous thing that I've
definitely seen, but it's harderto pinpoint on, you know, like a
building or something, isthere's a lot of change in the
climate too.
So I two of my years were prettyextreme compared to the historic
average.
So we had like a really, reallyhot and dry year where very few
(12:07):
nests were successful and thebirds left early, and then we
had a crazy wet year anotheryear, and you know, with climate
change, extremes like that arealso becoming more common.
Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint,you know, how different it is,
but that also has a huge impacton nest success, nest predation,
that kind of thing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
So you start studying them specifically after
they fledged the nest.
What is that experience like?
Is it like a dramatic nat geojumping off the cliff and they
never come back?
Or, you know, what does thatlook like?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
They're not very ready for the world when they
leave the nest.
So what's kind of unique aboutthese birds is so they're shrub
nesting birds, and so theirnests are really close to the
ground, which means that theydon't have to fly when they
first leave the nest, and theyactually can't fly within the
first few days.
Some birds, you know, that mightbe in a tree or something like
that, or if they're in a nestbox, they might wait a little
(12:57):
bit longer before fledging.
And the other thing is that forthese birds specifically, they
have a lot of nest predators,and so the nest is a pretty
dangerous place.
And the parents especially wantto get those kids out of the
nest as fast as they can,because if a predator comes
while they're all in the nest,then that parent is going to
lose all that effort for alltheir nestlings.
So these guys, they leave thenest pretty early.
(13:18):
And when they leave the nest,they can't fly.
Their feathers are not fullydeveloped, they're starting to
come out of the pins, which isfeathers start as like pins and
then they kind of open up.
But they, yeah, they're not verydeveloped.
And so what I found is thatactually these birds they did
better, especially in the firstfew days of the post-fledgling
period, if they had longer legs.
So it didn't really matter howwell they could fly, but it
(13:40):
mattered how well perhaps theycould run and how well they
could like find shelter byrunning.
So yeah, they hop out of thenest, they'll oftentimes split
up.
So like one parent will k take acouple of the fledglings, and
then the other one will have theother two, and they'll sort of
split up that way.
But they don't move that far inthe beginning.
You'll find them within like 50meters of the nest in the first
(14:00):
couple days, and then they startto roam a little bit further
away, and then within a weekthey're flying, and then they
start kind of zooming all overthe place in a family group.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
That's so interesting because when I think
of birds fledging, I just thinkof them flying away, not kind of
stumbling out of the nest andthen navigating the gr on the
ground.
So yeah, that learned somethingnew today.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Yeah, it's it's pretty crazy.
And you know, the post-fledgingperiod isn't as well studied as
the nesting period, justbecause, you know, it's hard you
have to track them and it's likea lot harder to find them.
But it seems like it's a prettyrisky period and potentially
more risky than the nestingperiod.
And so it's a really importanttime to understand what's
happening.
And that's a cool thing.
One thing that I am reallyexcited about with my research
(14:44):
is like trying to understanddifferent periods because there
are different levels of riskduring different parts of your
life.
And so trying to understandwhich parts of their life is
more risky and maybe we shouldfocus on for conservation is
kind of cool.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
So based on your research, that's really what's
going to come out of it then.
When should we focus ourresources on trying to protect
these species?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yeah, I think that that's part of it.
Yeah, trying to understand whenmore mortality is happening,
yeah, across the the wholeannual cycle, but that includes
things like the post-fledgingperiod and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
I know a lot of word people are really good at
mimicking like bird songs andbirds.
Are you able to do it?
Like you spent so much time withthem.
Like, what do their songs soundlike?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
I am not very good at that, so I don't know if I
can sing them.
I mean, I can tell you what theysound like.
They have some pretty distinctsongs, and so like brewer
sparrows, and I'm sure you heardthem when you were out there and
maybe caught some of it, butthey have like this long buzzy
song, and they actually willsing a different song when
they're paired and ready to gowith a partner versus when
they're not paired.
Sage bush sparrows, oh gosh, Idon't think I can sing any
(15:49):
either, but they have like apretty distinct like little
song.
It's like a little bitcomplicated.
And then for sage thrashers,they're always funny because it
just seems like they're justlike talk, they just want to
talk.
And so they just like uh I justtell people that if you hear
something warbling out in thesagebrush, it just like keeps
going on and on and it's kind oflike changing.
It's a sage thrasher.
SPEAKER_01 (16:09):
So you have a minor in creative writing.
How much do you use that?
I I feel like that's kind of aninteresting pairing with all of
the scientific research.
How do you use that in in yourwork and in your life?
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah, well, when I was in undergrad, I sort of like
wasn't sure what I wanted to do,and I loved to write too, and I
was always interested in likecommunication and that kind of
stuff.
And so that's why I have a minorin creative writing.
Honestly, I wish I wrote more.
I mean, science involves a lotof writing and a lot of
communication.
Like, you know, we're writingscientific papers, which are
mostly for, you know, ascientific audience, but also I
(16:48):
do a lot of talks and thingslike that at conferences and
then for the public.
And so I think communication isa big part of science and really
important because it's easy tojust get like sucked into like I
love spending time out in thestage brush, and it's easy to
get sucked into what I'm doingand not share it with other
people, but it's not going tomake an impact unless I share it
with other people.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
A lot of people, that is the most daunting part
of science, is then going tocommunicate it.
How do how do you approach that?
Do you have any tips for that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
It's definitely challenging.
I think one thing is thinkingbroadly is important.
So thinking about why this isimportant for our species, but
also why is this important forecology more broadly.
I mean, always the question whyis this important to know is is
like the first thing you have toapproach.
And yeah, I mean, to me, I'm I'mreally passionate about birds
(17:37):
and about conservation.
And I know that, I mean, manybird species are declining,
including the ones that I'mstudying.
And so to me, I know why that'simportant, but I have to
consider what my what theaudience values as well, and why
is that important to the peoplethat I'm talking to.
So I I don't know, I thinkthat's like what I think about
when I think about communicatingmy science.
SPEAKER_01 (17:58):
Yeah.
So why so what do you tellpeople when you tell them this
is why my science is important?
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Yeah.
Well, I the species I'mstudying, like I said, are
declining.
And I think that they just haveintrinsic value for existing.
I think everything on Earthdoes, and like, you know, we
need to respect everything thatexists on Earth.
But even beyond that, uh,declines of birds are it's scary
and it's gonna impact all of useventually.
(18:24):
You know, birds are importantpollinators, birds can influence
everything else in in theecosystem, like insects, which
are really importantpollinators.
Diversity increases theresilience of ecosystems.
So if we start losing species,um, then ecosystems themselves
could collapse, and that wouldhave a huge impact on like our
ability to even survive.
And so I think that's a goodreason to, you know, think that
(18:47):
this is important, even if youdon't care about brewer sparrows
themselves.
Losing species like this andlosing diversity like this is
going to have huge impacts onour ability to survive in the
future as well.
Also, you know, these birds aregetting impacted by habitat
change and also by climatechange, and it's sort of like a
canary in the coal minesituation.
(19:08):
If we see these declineshappening with some species, you
know, we know to look out forwhat's happening to other
species in the future.
So I think that's another reasonwhy it's important.
And, you know, I think birds arereally cool to look at.
It makes our world moreinteresting.
Um, one thing I noticed, like,because I'm I grew up in
Philadelphia and now I live inWyoming.
And when I go back home, it'slike a subconscious thing.
(19:28):
It sounds like home, and thereason is because I hear all
these birds that I grew up withsinging, and so we might not
even notice what's around us,but like the world that we grew
up in, you know, is created bythese ecosystems that we grew up
in, and so we don't want to losethat either.
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
Thinking about like you say that, and I can hear
what my home sounds like basedon the birds that I, you know,
morning doves and carnals, and Igrew up in central Texas, so we
kind of get a lot in thatflyway, but yeah, that was
really I really loved that.
So these migratory birds, whatlike how do you have numbers on
(20:03):
how far they're traveling, howlong it's taking them to do
that?
And just how are they doingthat?
They're so small.
You said they're like 12 grams.
How the heck are they flyingfrom Wyoming to Mexico and back?
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, it's crazy that they can do that.
It's pretty amazing.
They tend to spread out, so somewill go to like Texas, actually,
um, and like some will winter inSan Antonio, some, especially
sagebush pharaohs, don't goquite as far.
They'll go to like New Mexico orTexas or northern Mexico in that
area.
Some of them just spend theirtime in Utah and Colorado, so
(20:34):
they kind of stick nearby.
Others go to Baja, so theyspread out all over the place.
On average, they go about athousand kilometers for this for
these, the three species thatI'm studying, which actually, I
mean, it's it's a long way, butcompared to a lot of birds that
breed in North America, it'sactually not that long of a
migration.
So many birds go all the way toSouth America, and the birds I'm
(20:54):
studying, they don't, they go tolike Mexico and southern US.
And they'll do this, they do itin a few different ways.
So some of the birds that I lookat, they'll just go straight
there.
They'll be on the breedinggrounds and then they just go
straight down to their winteringgrounds and they'll do it in
like a couple days, which ispretty crazy.
Yeah.
Um, but then others will havesome stopovers, and all of these
(21:15):
birds, they they do somethingcalled a molt at the end of the
breeding period.
So they have to regrow theirfeathers every year because
their feathers get worn out.
So some of them will molt on thebreeding grounds and then they
just head right down there.
But other ones will go somewhereelse and stop over for a while
and do their molt and then theygo down to where they're gonna
winter.
So it sort of depends on thebird and how long it takes them
to get there.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Yeah, so birds are all spreading out.
You know, you'd think they wouldkind of all just follow the same
thing.
Is it just habit?
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And and that's actuallysomething that I'm thinking
about a lot right now, and I'mreally curious about because
yeah, so people are trying tofigure out um it's called
migratory connectivity.
So like it's like how connectedare populations across different
parts of the annual cycle.
And migratory connectivity canhave a big impact on
conservation because if youimagine if a population is going
(22:05):
to the same place during thenon-breeding period, then
habitat change on the breedingor the non-breeding grounds
could influence that entirepopulation versus if that
population is spreading out,that can actually be good for
the population because itdiversifies the strategy.
So not all individuals are goingto be influenced by habitat
change.
And we still don't know likewhat drives migratory
(22:26):
connectivity that much, likewhat makes some populations
spread out versus other ones notspread out.
One theory is that like in abrood, it it's advantageous if
every fledgling or young birdwill go to a different place,
and so they that's how thepopulation spreads out, and then
every year that bird will go tothe same different area than its
siblings, if that makes sense.
(22:48):
But what's surprising is so afew of my birds, I was able to
track them for multiple years,which is pretty rare for
songbirds because, like I talkedabout, those tags that I use are
really hard to use, it's hard tocatch the birds again, and so I
was really lucky that I I wasable to track some of them for
multiple years.
And what I actually found wasthat um individuals were going
to completely different placesin different years.
(23:10):
Um I had you know a couple birdsthat spent one year in Baja and
then another year in like SanAntonio, like totally different
places.
Wow.
Um and so I don't know what's upwith that.
It's that's sort of unexpected,and usually we assume that
adults have site fidelity,meaning they are faithful to the
same area across multiple years.
But it seems like for thesespecies, they maybe aren't site
(23:33):
faithful.
And that might be a good thing.
That might mean that they'reflexible enough that they can
actually respond toenvironmental change, or
something else might be goingon.
You know, they might just like Idon't know, maybe something
weird happened to their habitatand they couldn't go to the same
place, you know, and they wentsomewhere else.
So who knows what's happening.
And another uh, I guess,unfortunate thing about my
research is the only birds thatI can see where they went are
(23:56):
the birds that actually survivedto the following year so that I
could get the tag back.
And so it's possible that thebirds that I'm getting back are
the ones that are actuallythey're smart enough or flexible
enough that they can respond tochange, and other birds are
going to places that are notgreat for them, but then they're
dying, so I can't actually seewhere they went.
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
So Yeah, there's definitely so much to consider
there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
So these are three different species of songbirds.
How are they interacting at thebreeding grounds that you can
see?
Are they friends?
Are they fighting?
You know, what's going on there?
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Yeah, because they do all use sagebrush, so they're
sort of probably competing forat least nest shrubs and that
kind of thing on the breedinggrounds.
But I honestly don't really seethem interact that much.
What's interesting is they dobuild their nests in different
parts of the shrub.
So like brewer spurrows willbuild their nest often in the
top of a shrub, but sagethrashers might be at the bottom
of the shrub.
And but I never see like abrewer spurrow and a sage
(24:52):
thrasher have a nest in the sameshrub.
So they must be in some waycompeting for different shrubs.
But on the breeding grounds, itdoes seem like their territories
overlap.
But they I mean theirterritories will be separate
within the species.
So like two brewer spurrows willfight each other for a
territory, but then they mightit might overlap with like a
sagebrush sparrow or somethinglike that.
(25:12):
So it seems like they're able tocoexist.
And like one thing I wasinterested in with the
geolocators was seeing if thesethree species are going to
different non-breeding areas aswell.
And it does seem like they theydo go to different places.
So even though they're allbreeding in the same place, the
three species do seem to spreadout to different non-breeding
areas relative to each other aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
Very cool.
What if you're a brewer spur ora sagebrush thrasher, what are
you looking out for?
What's what's taking your babiesin the night?
You know, like who who are ourmain enemies here?
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah, well, they have a lot of enemies on the
breeding grounds.
But actually the most commonnest predator is deer mice.
So even though they're reallysmall, just because like eggs
are super easy for them to eat,and then like little nestlings,
they can't do anything, they'rekind of helpless.
So deer mice are a big predator.
But then um, there are a lot ofpredators out there.
There are badgers, there's a lotof ground squirrels, there are a
(26:04):
lot of aerial predators, so likeloggerhead shrikes will predate
them, northern harriers,basically any raptors.
Yeah, I mean, everything eatssagebrush songbirds,
unfortunately.
But once they're able to fly,then it's not so much of a
problem.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Gotcha.
unknown (26:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Yeah.
Thanks for joining me, Emily,and for teaching us all about
sagebrush songbirds.
Uh, if people want to learn moreabout this or more about your
research, do you have any linksof places they can go to check
that out?
SPEAKER_00 (26:33):
Yeah, um, I don't I guess the co-op unit has a
website that you can go to.
I don't know the exact address,but um yeah, we have information
about our research there.
Um and then yeah, I think that'sthe main place.
There's also the University ofWyoming has this Wild Bird
Initiative that has a websitethat's more about like birds in
general, but that website alsohas information about birds in
(26:54):
Wyoming.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
Thanks for tuning in to the Our Wildlife podcast
brought to you by the WildlifeSociety.
If this episode sparked a newidea or just made you appreciate
wildlife a little more, let usknow.
Leave a review, send us amessage, or tag us on social
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Want to get more involved in theworld of wildlife conservation?
Head to wildlife.org.
(27:18):
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
What's life like for a songbird that weighs less than
10 paperclips?
And how are scientists keepingtabs on them?
In this episode, I chat withEmily Schertzer, a PhD candidate
at the University of Wyoming,about her research on sagebrush
songbirds.
We get into her unexpected pathinto ornithology, how she tracks
tiny birds traveling across thecontinent, and how human
(00:23):
development and climate changeare reshaping their worlds.
We learn about the secret livesof sagebrush songbirds and why
clear scientific communicationis just as important as the
research itself.
(01:03):
Let's just break it down fromthe beginning.
What constitutes a songbird?
What, you know, what's thatdistinction?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
So songbirds, they're part of the uh order
passeriformis or passerines.
So typically they're smallerbirds, although something like a
crow or a raven is stillconsidered a songbird.
So they're different fromraptors.
Most of the small birds that yousee flying around are songbirds,
or they might be closely relatedto songbirds, something like a
woodpecker.
And the birds that I study aresparrows and then thrashers.
(01:31):
So sparrows, lots of differentsparrow species around.
Like in cities, you might seehouse sparrows, that's like a
kind of sparrow.
And then thrashers are relatedto mocking birds and in that
group, but they are allconsidered songbirds.
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
Awesome.
So how did you get into this?
Were you always a bird person?
Was it just kind of, you know,something for you to study to be
able to go to school?
Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Yeah, so I I did my undergrad at Cornell University,
and that's sort of what broughtme into the bird world because
Cornell has like a really bigbird program there, and you
might have heard of the CornellLab for Ontology.
So when I uh started inundergrad, I knew that I was
interested in conservation,biology, but I didn't really
know exactly what I wanted todo.
So I joined a lab because I wasinterested in doing research,
(02:14):
and that's kind of what led meto birds.
And I don't know, I remember thefirst time I held a bird, we
were banding chickadees and someother birds at bird feeders, and
it's just like an amazingfeeling to just realize how
complicated and interestingtheir lives are and get to see
that up close.
So I think that's really whatgot me really excited about
birds.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Let's get into your work now.
You're base in the sagebrushwhen you're doing field
research.
Explain to me exactly what we'redoing out in the field these
days.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yeah, so well, I'm actually done with collecting my
data, which is sort of nice.
But um, the last, oh gosh, fivesummers, I was going out um to
Pinedale, Wyoming, which is onthe western side of the state,
and working in sagebrush.
So all three of the species thatI study, which are brewer
sparrows, sagebrush sparrows,and sage thrashers, are
considered sagebrush associated,at least songbirds.
(03:02):
Some people call call themobligates, which means that they
require sagebrush habitat,although um it's a little bit
complicated.
I think brewer sparrows can be alittle bit more flexible than
that.
But um yeah, so in the summers,I would go out and I would catch
birds and band them.
So I put little bands on theirlegs that are colored so that I
can actually recite individualsfrom afar and know who they are.
(03:24):
And then I put out differenttags to track them.
So I was studying a fewdifferent periods and movement
during a few different periods,including the post-fledging
period, which is the time afterbirds leave the nest, but when
they're still in family groups.
And then I'm also studyingmigration.
So I'd catch birds, put tags onthem, let them go again, and
then track them, you know,outside of the breeding period.
(03:45):
But I did all my field workduring the breeding period
because it's a lot easier tostudy birds when they're on a
nest.
It's easy to find them, to trackindividuals, and so we would go
out, find nests, catch thosebirds, and then track them, you
know, over multiple years afterthat.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
All right, so you're not getting to go down to Mexico
and hang out with them whenthey're down there.
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
No, I wish.
I thought I was trying to findan excuse.
Well, a couple of my firstburrows actually go to Baja, and
so I've been like, oh my gosh, Ireally need to check out those
wintering grounds.
But no, I haven't been able todo that.
I think it would be goingforward a really cool
opportunity like to work withresearchers in other places.
And I think that's a really coolthing about migratory birds is
like no one country or person orregion like you know, owns these
(04:28):
birds.
They cover a lot of the globe,and so the birds in Wyoming
spend half the year down inMexico.
And I think it would be a reallygreat opportunity to collaborate
across different countries inthe future.
But yeah, I didn't have a chanceto do that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Yeah.
Awesome.
So let's get into how do youtrack because I got to hold one
of these, I can't remember whichone it was, but it was so small,
like the size of my thumb orsmaller.
What are you putting on them tobe able to track them from
Wyoming to Mexico and back?
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
Yeah, so these tags are super cool.
Um, people a lot smarter than mecame up with them maybe 20 years
ago now is when people startedusing these tags.
But the tags that I use to trackthem during migration are called
light-level geolocators.
And yeah, you pointed out thatthese birds are really small.
Brewer sprows uh are only like10 to 12 grams.
And we're required to put tagson that are less than 3% of
(05:21):
their body weight, because morethan that, the concern is that
it'll affect them and affecttheir survival.
And so that means that we haveto put on tags that are like 0.3
grams or smaller than that.
So the light-level GLA cuttersare super tiny, and all they are
are they have a little lightstock on them, and then they
have a tiny battery, and theycan just collect information.
(05:41):
They can't actually send outinformation because sending out
a signal would take too muchweight.
And so the tags just collectlight information, and I have to
catch the bird again the nextyear.
So I take the tag off thefollowing year, and then I get
this graph of light and time.
And I can tell based on thetiming of sunrise and sunset,
(06:02):
and also how quickly the sunrises and sets where the bird
was at a given time.
Because if you think about it,like you know, if you're far up
north in the summertime, thenyour days are gonna be super
long.
And also those sunrises andsunsets are gonna have a very
gentle slope versus if you'recloser to the tropics.
So you can actually tell wherethe bird was using that
information.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
That's really cool.
So how like how accurate isthat?
You kind of get, you know, likea between this latitude and that
latitude, or are you able topinpoint even more specific than
that?
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, it's um definitely not as accurate as
GPS.
And I think the average error is200 kilometers error in like
latitude and then about 50 inlongitude, but it does depend.
Um, so if a bird is in one placefor a long time, so if they go
to their wintering grounds andjust hang out there for a long
time, then we can get moreaccurate estimates of their
(06:54):
location.
Also, the timing of year canaffect it.
So, like around the equinox daylength is very similar across a
lot of the world during theequinox, and so sometimes it's
harder to pinpoint locationsduring that time, but then you
can pinpoint it at other times.
So it sort of depends.
But yeah, that's about theaverage error.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
That's so interesting.
So, how successful are you withthe birds that you're tagging
and then coming back to Wyomingand you being able to find them
again?
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
So, and that's another one of my questions is
trying to understand howfaithful they are to certain
sites.
And what we saw is we got abouta third of our birds back every
year.
So like 30 to 40 percent wouldcome back every year.
And so we got, I think, yeah, itwas about 30% of the tags back.
So I think I put out 150 and Igot back 45, so a little bit
(07:41):
less than a third.
Yeah, but then part of that isalso sometimes we would get
birds that came back and we sawthem and they had their tag on,
and I couldn't actually catchthem again because they get to
know me and they they know whatI'm up to.
So they learn your tricks.
Yeah, they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Yeah, so their habitat, you talk about them
being obligates, meaning that Idid not know that that meant
that they needed sagebrush.
There that same type ofsagebrush habitat is down in
Baja, Mexico, or are theychanging their habitat depending
on the time of year?
What is that like?
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Yeah, they probably are changing their habitat, and
it seems like from our uh datathey are.
So um they need sagebrush duringthe breeding season because they
build their nests in sagebrushshrubs most of the time.
But in the wintertime, they'rejust spending time in shrub step
habitat in general.
So it's still shrubby habitat,still like kind of similar
structure, but not necessarilysagebrush.
(08:33):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
So you spent a lot of time in the sagebrush, and I
think a lot of people don'treally understand the complexity
of that habitat, and I got tospend a week there with some of
your other lab mates, and so Ireally got to see, you know,
just how different and howvariety this habitat is, even
though it just looks like asagebrush seat.
So can you tell me a little bitabout like when you look out in
(08:55):
the sagebrush, what do you see?
What do you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Yeah, it is really complicated.
And you know, for me, I wasalways going out to the same
breeding sites every year.
So I spent five years out there,and like you just said, even
though it might look all thesame to someone who doesn't know
the area, you really get to knowdifferences in the habitats.
There's taller sagebrush, thereare areas called like Mima
mounds that with tall sagebrushand these draws with tall
(09:18):
sagebrush, and shortersagebrush.
And what's really cool is thatone thing I was doing with my
project was tracking adultsacross multiple years and trying
to understand how faithful theyare to certain sites.
And they also see the sagebrushthe way that like you and I do.
They they recognize verydistinct features.
And so we would have um,especially males, come back and
(09:40):
nest within the same 20 metersevery single year.
So they went all the way toMexico, but they recognize those
areas.
So when you're working outthere, you sort of start
thinking like a bird too, andyou can you can tell that there
are differences in the landscapeand you recognize areas and you
know it feels very familiar incertain areas and that kind of
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah.
So if I'm a songbird on thehousing market, what am I
looking for?
What's my ideal habitat?
Like where where are you goingto find these kinds of
songbirds?
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
It sort of depends on the species and sometimes
even the time of the summer,because they'll nest multiple
multiple times throughout thesummer, what kind of shrubs
they're looking for.
But things like burr sparrows, Iusually see them in sort of
larger sagebrush shrubs, butthen sagebrush sparrows, they
don't mind the really tinyshrubs.
Usually they prefer areas thatare a little bit denser with
(10:26):
shrubs.
Um, so if I'm in an area ofsagebrush that's kind of like
really short and sparse shrubs,then I won't find nests as much.
One thing that is not a goodidea if you're one of these
birds, but they don't seem torecognize this, is nesting near
things like natural gasdevelopment or human structures
can actually be really negativefor them.
In these areas, there areactually more rodents, which are
(10:46):
nest predators, and so your nestis less likely to be successful
if you're near humandevelopment.
However, these birds, it seemslike they don't seem to really
recognize that that's a problem,and they keep nesting in those
areas anyway.
So those are kind of some of thethings that they're looking for.
SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
Yeah, so you've been out there for five years.
How have you seen more humandevelopment?
Because a lot of the a lot ofyour area sites are on public
land, correct?
So then they're getting theseoil and gas leases.
How how have you seen thatevolution going back, you know,
five times of the impact thatthat's having on these species?
SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
A lot of our questions are related to natural
gas development and how that'sinfluencing these birds.
So we specifically chose sitesthat are spreading across the
gradient of natural gasdevelopment.
But they're continuing to addnew wells.
And so while I've been outthere, I've seen new wells go
in.
Um there's also uh a lot of liketruck traffic and things like
that.
A lot of times they have to mowdown the sagebrush to add in
(11:46):
pipelines and things like that.
So there's a lot of change onthe landscape from all that.
And then also another sort ofnebulous thing that I've
definitely seen, but it's harderto pinpoint on, you know, like a
building or something, isthere's a lot of change in the
climate too.
So I two of my years were prettyextreme compared to the historic
average.
So we had like a really, reallyhot and dry year where very few
(12:07):
nests were successful and thebirds left early, and then we
had a crazy wet year anotheryear, and you know, with climate
change, extremes like that arealso becoming more common.
Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint,you know, how different it is,
but that also has a huge impacton nest success, nest predation,
that kind of thing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
So you start studying them specifically after
they fledged the nest.
What is that experience like?
Is it like a dramatic nat geojumping off the cliff and they
never come back?
Or, you know, what does thatlook like?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
They're not very ready for the world when they
leave the nest.
So what's kind of unique aboutthese birds is so they're shrub
nesting birds, and so theirnests are really close to the
ground, which means that theydon't have to fly when they
first leave the nest, and theyactually can't fly within the
first few days.
Some birds, you know, that mightbe in a tree or something like
that, or if they're in a nestbox, they might wait a little
(12:57):
bit longer before fledging.
And the other thing is that forthese birds specifically, they
have a lot of nest predators,and so the nest is a pretty
dangerous place.
And the parents especially wantto get those kids out of the
nest as fast as they can,because if a predator comes
while they're all in the nest,then that parent is going to
lose all that effort for alltheir nestlings.
So these guys, they leave thenest pretty early.
(13:18):
And when they leave the nest,they can't fly.
Their feathers are not fullydeveloped, they're starting to
come out of the pins, which isfeathers start as like pins and
then they kind of open up.
But they, yeah, they're not verydeveloped.
And so what I found is thatactually these birds they did
better, especially in the firstfew days of the post-fledgling
period, if they had longer legs.
So it didn't really matter howwell they could fly, but it
(13:40):
mattered how well perhaps theycould run and how well they
could like find shelter byrunning.
So yeah, they hop out of thenest, they'll oftentimes split
up.
So like one parent will k take acouple of the fledglings, and
then the other one will have theother two, and they'll sort of
split up that way.
But they don't move that far inthe beginning.
You'll find them within like 50meters of the nest in the first
(14:00):
couple days, and then they startto roam a little bit further
away, and then within a weekthey're flying, and then they
start kind of zooming all overthe place in a family group.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
That's so interesting because when I think
of birds fledging, I just thinkof them flying away, not kind of
stumbling out of the nest andthen navigating the gr on the
ground.
So yeah, that learned somethingnew today.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Yeah, it's it's pretty crazy.
And you know, the post-fledgingperiod isn't as well studied as
the nesting period, justbecause, you know, it's hard you
have to track them and it's likea lot harder to find them.
But it seems like it's a prettyrisky period and potentially
more risky than the nestingperiod.
And so it's a really importanttime to understand what's
happening.
And that's a cool thing.
One thing that I am reallyexcited about with my research
(14:44):
is like trying to understanddifferent periods because there
are different levels of riskduring different parts of your
life.
And so trying to understandwhich parts of their life is
more risky and maybe we shouldfocus on for conservation is
kind of cool.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
So based on your research, that's really what's
going to come out of it then.
When should we focus ourresources on trying to protect
these species?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yeah, I think that that's part of it.
Yeah, trying to understand whenmore mortality is happening,
yeah, across the the wholeannual cycle, but that includes
things like the post-fledgingperiod and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
I know a lot of word people are really good at
mimicking like bird songs andbirds.
Are you able to do it?
Like you spent so much time withthem.
Like, what do their songs soundlike?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
I am not very good at that, so I don't know if I
can sing them.
I mean, I can tell you what theysound like.
They have some pretty distinctsongs, and so like brewer
sparrows, and I'm sure you heardthem when you were out there and
maybe caught some of it, butthey have like this long buzzy
song, and they actually willsing a different song when
they're paired and ready to gowith a partner versus when
they're not paired.
Sage bush sparrows, oh gosh, Idon't think I can sing any
(15:49):
either, but they have like apretty distinct like little
song.
It's like a little bitcomplicated.
And then for sage thrashers,they're always funny because it
just seems like they're justlike talk, they just want to
talk.
And so they just like uh I justtell people that if you hear
something warbling out in thesagebrush, it just like keeps
going on and on and it's kind oflike changing.
It's a sage thrasher.
SPEAKER_01 (16:09):
So you have a minor in creative writing.
How much do you use that?
I I feel like that's kind of aninteresting pairing with all of
the scientific research.
How do you use that in in yourwork and in your life?
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah, well, when I was in undergrad, I sort of like
wasn't sure what I wanted to do,and I loved to write too, and I
was always interested in likecommunication and that kind of
stuff.
And so that's why I have a minorin creative writing.
Honestly, I wish I wrote more.
I mean, science involves a lotof writing and a lot of
communication.
Like, you know, we're writingscientific papers, which are
mostly for, you know, ascientific audience, but also I
(16:48):
do a lot of talks and thingslike that at conferences and
then for the public.
And so I think communication isa big part of science and really
important because it's easy tojust get like sucked into like I
love spending time out in thestage brush, and it's easy to
get sucked into what I'm doingand not share it with other
people, but it's not going tomake an impact unless I share it
with other people.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
A lot of people, that is the most daunting part
of science, is then going tocommunicate it.
How do how do you approach that?
Do you have any tips for that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
It's definitely challenging.
I think one thing is thinkingbroadly is important.
So thinking about why this isimportant for our species, but
also why is this important forecology more broadly.
I mean, always the question whyis this important to know is is
like the first thing you have toapproach.
And yeah, I mean, to me, I'm I'mreally passionate about birds
(17:37):
and about conservation.
And I know that, I mean, manybird species are declining,
including the ones that I'mstudying.
And so to me, I know why that'simportant, but I have to
consider what my what theaudience values as well, and why
is that important to the peoplethat I'm talking to.
So I I don't know, I thinkthat's like what I think about
when I think about communicatingmy science.
SPEAKER_01 (17:58):
Yeah.
So why so what do you tellpeople when you tell them this
is why my science is important?
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Yeah.
Well, I the species I'mstudying, like I said, are
declining.
And I think that they just haveintrinsic value for existing.
I think everything on Earthdoes, and like, you know, we
need to respect everything thatexists on Earth.
But even beyond that, uh,declines of birds are it's scary
and it's gonna impact all of useventually.
(18:24):
You know, birds are importantpollinators, birds can influence
everything else in in theecosystem, like insects, which
are really importantpollinators.
Diversity increases theresilience of ecosystems.
So if we start losing species,um, then ecosystems themselves
could collapse, and that wouldhave a huge impact on like our
ability to even survive.
And so I think that's a goodreason to, you know, think that
(18:47):
this is important, even if youdon't care about brewer sparrows
themselves.
Losing species like this andlosing diversity like this is
going to have huge impacts onour ability to survive in the
future as well.
Also, you know, these birds aregetting impacted by habitat
change and also by climatechange, and it's sort of like a
canary in the coal minesituation.
(19:08):
If we see these declineshappening with some species, you
know, we know to look out forwhat's happening to other
species in the future.
So I think that's another reasonwhy it's important.
And, you know, I think birds arereally cool to look at.
It makes our world moreinteresting.
Um, one thing I noticed, like,because I'm I grew up in
Philadelphia and now I live inWyoming.
And when I go back home, it'slike a subconscious thing.
(19:28):
It sounds like home, and thereason is because I hear all
these birds that I grew up withsinging, and so we might not
even notice what's around us,but like the world that we grew
up in, you know, is created bythese ecosystems that we grew up
in, and so we don't want to losethat either.
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
Thinking about like you say that, and I can hear
what my home sounds like basedon the birds that I, you know,
morning doves and carnals, and Igrew up in central Texas, so we
kind of get a lot in thatflyway, but yeah, that was
really I really loved that.
So these migratory birds, whatlike how do you have numbers on
(20:03):
how far they're traveling, howlong it's taking them to do
that?
And just how are they doingthat?
They're so small.
You said they're like 12 grams.
How the heck are they flyingfrom Wyoming to Mexico and back?
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, it's crazy that they can do that.
It's pretty amazing.
They tend to spread out, so somewill go to like Texas, actually,
um, and like some will winter inSan Antonio, some, especially
sagebush pharaohs, don't goquite as far.
They'll go to like New Mexico orTexas or northern Mexico in that
area.
Some of them just spend theirtime in Utah and Colorado, so
(20:34):
they kind of stick nearby.
Others go to Baja, so theyspread out all over the place.
On average, they go about athousand kilometers for this for
these, the three species thatI'm studying, which actually, I
mean, it's it's a long way, butcompared to a lot of birds that
breed in North America, it'sactually not that long of a
migration.
So many birds go all the way toSouth America, and the birds I'm
(20:54):
studying, they don't, they go tolike Mexico and southern US.
And they'll do this, they do itin a few different ways.
So some of the birds that I lookat, they'll just go straight
there.
They'll be on the breedinggrounds and then they just go
straight down to their winteringgrounds and they'll do it in
like a couple days, which ispretty crazy.
Yeah.
Um, but then others will havesome stopovers, and all of these
(21:15):
birds, they they do somethingcalled a molt at the end of the
breeding period.
So they have to regrow theirfeathers every year because
their feathers get worn out.
So some of them will molt on thebreeding grounds and then they
just head right down there.
But other ones will go somewhereelse and stop over for a while
and do their molt and then theygo down to where they're gonna
winter.
So it sort of depends on thebird and how long it takes them
to get there.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Yeah, so birds are all spreading out.
You know, you'd think they wouldkind of all just follow the same
thing.
Is it just habit?
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And and that's actuallysomething that I'm thinking
about a lot right now, and I'mreally curious about because
yeah, so people are trying tofigure out um it's called
migratory connectivity.
So like it's like how connectedare populations across different
parts of the annual cycle.
And migratory connectivity canhave a big impact on
conservation because if youimagine if a population is going
(22:05):
to the same place during thenon-breeding period, then
habitat change on the breedingor the non-breeding grounds
could influence that entirepopulation versus if that
population is spreading out,that can actually be good for
the population because itdiversifies the strategy.
So not all individuals are goingto be influenced by habitat
change.
And we still don't know likewhat drives migratory
(22:26):
connectivity that much, likewhat makes some populations
spread out versus other ones notspread out.
One theory is that like in abrood, it it's advantageous if
every fledgling or young birdwill go to a different place,
and so they that's how thepopulation spreads out, and then
every year that bird will go tothe same different area than its
siblings, if that makes sense.
(22:48):
But what's surprising is so afew of my birds, I was able to
track them for multiple years,which is pretty rare for
songbirds because, like I talkedabout, those tags that I use are
really hard to use, it's hard tocatch the birds again, and so I
was really lucky that I I wasable to track some of them for
multiple years.
And what I actually found wasthat um individuals were going
to completely different placesin different years.
(23:10):
Um I had you know a couple birdsthat spent one year in Baja and
then another year in like SanAntonio, like totally different
places.
Wow.
Um and so I don't know what's upwith that.
It's that's sort of unexpected,and usually we assume that
adults have site fidelity,meaning they are faithful to the
same area across multiple years.
But it seems like for thesespecies, they maybe aren't site
(23:33):
faithful.
And that might be a good thing.
That might mean that they'reflexible enough that they can
actually respond toenvironmental change, or
something else might be goingon.
You know, they might just like Idon't know, maybe something
weird happened to their habitatand they couldn't go to the same
place, you know, and they wentsomewhere else.
So who knows what's happening.
And another uh, I guess,unfortunate thing about my
research is the only birds thatI can see where they went are
(23:56):
the birds that actually survivedto the following year so that I
could get the tag back.
And so it's possible that thebirds that I'm getting back are
the ones that are actuallythey're smart enough or flexible
enough that they can respond tochange, and other birds are
going to places that are notgreat for them, but then they're
dying, so I can't actually seewhere they went.
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
So Yeah, there's definitely so much to consider
there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
So these are three different species of songbirds.
How are they interacting at thebreeding grounds that you can
see?
Are they friends?
Are they fighting?
You know, what's going on there?
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Yeah, because they do all use sagebrush, so they're
sort of probably competing forat least nest shrubs and that
kind of thing on the breedinggrounds.
But I honestly don't really seethem interact that much.
What's interesting is they dobuild their nests in different
parts of the shrub.
So like brewer spurrows willbuild their nest often in the
top of a shrub, but sagethrashers might be at the bottom
of the shrub.
And but I never see like abrewer spurrow and a sage
(24:52):
thrasher have a nest in the sameshrub.
So they must be in some waycompeting for different shrubs.
But on the breeding grounds, itdoes seem like their territories
overlap.
But they I mean theirterritories will be separate
within the species.
So like two brewer spurrows willfight each other for a
territory, but then they mightit might overlap with like a
sagebrush sparrow or somethinglike that.
(25:12):
So it seems like they're able tocoexist.
And like one thing I wasinterested in with the
geolocators was seeing if thesethree species are going to
different non-breeding areas aswell.
And it does seem like they theydo go to different places.
So even though they're allbreeding in the same place, the
three species do seem to spreadout to different non-breeding
areas relative to each other aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
Very cool.
What if you're a brewer spur ora sagebrush thrasher, what are
you looking out for?
What's what's taking your babiesin the night?
You know, like who who are ourmain enemies here?
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah, well, they have a lot of enemies on the
breeding grounds.
But actually the most commonnest predator is deer mice.
So even though they're reallysmall, just because like eggs
are super easy for them to eat,and then like little nestlings,
they can't do anything, they'rekind of helpless.
So deer mice are a big predator.
But then um, there are a lot ofpredators out there.
There are badgers, there's a lotof ground squirrels, there are a
(26:04):
lot of aerial predators, so likeloggerhead shrikes will predate
them, northern harriers,basically any raptors.
Yeah, I mean, everything eatssagebrush songbirds,
unfortunately.
But once they're able to fly,then it's not so much of a
problem.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Gotcha.
unknown (26:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Yeah.
Thanks for joining me, Emily,and for teaching us all about
sagebrush songbirds.
Uh, if people want to learn moreabout this or more about your
research, do you have any linksof places they can go to check
that out?
SPEAKER_00 (26:33):
Yeah, um, I don't I guess the co-op unit has a
website that you can go to.
I don't know the exact address,but um yeah, we have information
about our research there.
Um and then yeah, I think that'sthe main place.
There's also the University ofWyoming has this Wild Bird
Initiative that has a websitethat's more about like birds in
general, but that website alsohas information about birds in
(26:54):
Wyoming.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
Thanks for tuning in to the Our Wildlife podcast
brought to you by the WildlifeSociety.
If this episode sparked a newidea or just made you appreciate
wildlife a little more, let usknow.
Leave a review, send us amessage, or tag us on social
media at the Wildlife Society.
Want to get more involved in theworld of wildlife conservation?
Head to wildlife.org.
(27:18):
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
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