October 2, 2025 • 47 mins
This conversation brings together three Aldo Leopold Award winners and past presidents of The Wildlife Society to explore how a profession found its purpose and how we keep it honest, relevant, and resilient.
From there, we unpack what TWS really is: not just a membership, but a community of practice that transcends workplaces and fuels collaboration. You’ll hear how standards and journals legitimized wildlife management as a science, how policy engagement turned research into action, and how the annual conference built a durable network of peers who can challenge assumptions, share methods, and solve problems together.
Along the way, we trade field stories—from face-to-face bear encounters to cultural wake-up calls in India and the delicate craft of radio-tagging endangered jumping mice—that translate directly into practice: safety, ethics, cultural competence, and adaptive learning.
If you care about wildlife science, conservation policy, and the next generation of biologists, you’ll find perspective and practical guidance here: invest in your network, step beyond your comfort zone, and be an honest broker who pairs evidence with empathy. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway—we’d love to hear how you’re carrying the land ethic forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:12):
Hey everybody, welcome to the Our Wildlife
Podcast, brought to you by theWildlife Society.
I'm Ed Arnett, and I'm here withmy co-host, Katie Perkins.
And Katie, we have got some veryspecial guests to kick off our
podcast.
We're being joined by pastpresidents of the Wildlife
Society who are also elderlyLeopold Memorial Award winners.
(00:33):
So TWS royalty, if you will, andreally excited.
I've known all these folks for along time throughout my career.
They've been mentors andcolleagues, and I would say
friends as well.
So it's great to have everybodywith us.
I'd like to introduce ourguests, uh, Dr.
John Organ, who was president in2006 to 2007 with the Wildlife
(00:56):
Society, and our 2020 recipientof the Aldo Leopold Memorial
Award.
Dr.
Winifred Kessler, who goes byWinnie.
She was our president in 2012 to2013, and won the Aldo Leopold
Award in 2017.
And I might add only the secondwoman to win that award will be
(01:17):
the last by any stretch becausewe have the third woman who was
our Aldo Leopold Award recipientin 2023, uh, longtime friend and
colleague, Dr.
Carol Chambers, who also was thepresident in 2020 and 21.
Welcome to all of you.
Really great to see you and uhglad you're with us today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Carol, can you take us all the way back to the
beginning?
What sparked your interest inthe wildlife profession and a
desire to be a wildlifebiologist?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
I I love thinking about that question.
I I've been thinking about itbecause I often talk about it.
I loved animals when I was akid, but at that time there
weren't a lot of role models inwildlife.
I remember watching WildKingdom, which you may not have
heard about.
It was a TV program.
It was in a documentary onnature and wildlife, and every
(02:07):
week.
Um, I think it was MarlonPerkins who would go out in the
woods with a colleague who wouldjump on crocodiles or wrestle a
snake or somehow demonstrate anddifferent animals and where they
lived and talk about that.
And I really enjoyed that show.
I didn't see very many womendoing that kind of job.
(02:29):
So I really didn't know thatwildlife existed in the
profession.
So because I loved animals, Ithought I'm gonna go to college
and I'm gonna become a vet.
I'm gonna work with animals.
And working through a biologydegree, I volunteered with my
local vet and I discovered Idon't want to be a vet.
I don't want to, you know, spayin neuter animals.
And um, you know, they you knockthem out and they wake up and
(02:52):
they hate you.
Not deep really, but so Ithought I would be a zoo vet,
because that would be more withwild animals.
And then I thought the odds ofthat are pretty long.
And then I realized I want to goto Africa and see those animals
out in the wild.
And it wasn't until I finishedup my my undergraduate degree in
biology, and I was looking for amaster's program and I
(03:14):
discovered forestry at theUniversity of Kentucky, and
there was a wildlife biologistthere.
That's when I learned it was aprofession.
So I think we still have one ofthe greatest professions that
people don't tend to find outabout easily.
But there are certainly morerole models now than I had when
I was a kid.
So I don't know.
I loved animals, I love beingoutside.
Any day outside is a better day.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah, it's amazing how profound of an impact that
one show had on generations ofpeople because I hear that
common thread when I talk topeople and I ask them that
question.
John, what about you?
What sparked your interest?
SPEAKER_04 (03:47):
Well, Katie, I grew up in a time in a place where I
could spend a lot of timeoutdoors, uh unsupervised.
I grew up in the ConnecticutRiver Valley of Western
Massachusetts, where we we hadsome land that went down into
the meadows that flooded everyyear from the river.
My grandfather's farm was onwhat at one point was uh an
(04:10):
island in the Connecticut River,the Oxbow.
And so I spent an awful lot oftime outdoors, and wildlife were
the bonus.
You know, they were they justfascinated me and my friends,
and we talked about them all thetime, whether it was a red fox,
you know, whether it was a blackbear, whether it was a snapping
(04:32):
turtle when you were waiting andwondering if you're going to get
your toes chewed off.
And then I think throughNational Geographic magazine, I
followed the Craighead brothers.
And John Craighead was theleader of the Montana
Cooperative Wildlife ResearchUnit.
And of course, you know, theiruh landmark work on grizzly
bears in Yellowstone justfascinated me.
(04:54):
And that's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to chase grizzliesaround Yellowstone.
And then when I was in highschool, I was watching a local
program where they wereinterviewing a man by the name
of Chet McCord, who was awildlife biologist with the
Massachusetts Division ofFisheries and Wildlife, and he
was talking about the bobcatresearch he was doing in
(05:15):
west-central Massachusetts.
I said, that's what I want todo.
And so I entered the Universityof Massachusetts at Amherst as a
wildlife biology major.
And never looked back.
I was very fortunate in that Iwas able to live some of my
dreams, you know, in terms of uhlong-term study on Canada Lynx,
(05:36):
worked with bobcats, worked withblack bears and uh Andean bears
in Peru, and got trained by agrizzly and had an up close and
personal coming.
I think I told you about that,Ed, just within the last week at
the end of July with fourgrizzlies.
I was in Alaska that I waswithin 10 feet of.
(05:57):
Not the most comfortablesituation.
But yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:00):
It's an amazing and frightening experience all in
the same baron.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
I love how casually wildlife professionals will just
drop little tidbits of that,like, oh, I got treed by a
grizzly bear.
You know, like and it's justtotally normal.
Nobody bats an eye.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Well, I got charged, charged by a brown bear on
Abuchi Island up in Alaska.
So I'm in I'm in the the bearencounter club too.
SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
My closest encounter to anything like that was waking
up after uh I guess I'd been uhdoing telemetry all night, and
and there was I startled abobcat that was sleeping near
the tent.
But that's not like having abrown bear charge you.
I'd like to hear that storysometime.
SPEAKER_03 (06:38):
But winning what sparked your interest in
wildlife.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
So my colleagues are usually surprised when I
explained that I was a city kid.
I was born and raised in SanFrancisco.
However, we didn't even have acar to get around, you know,
everything was on foot or bus,but the location was great
because we had Golden Gate Parkacross the street and the
Pacific Ocean, literally at theend of the block.
So, like John, we werefree-range kids.
(07:05):
We wandered.
We were allowed to in thosedays.
And the wildlife in the park wasreally of interest.
And my mother was quitetolerant.
She let us bring home snakes andwounded ducks and caterpillars
to metamorphose and tadpoles togrow out into frogs, and that
that all sparked that interest.
(07:26):
And the other advantage of thecity location was that the
California Academy of Sciencewas within walking range and the
zoo.
And we were able to get in forfree in those days.
That was important to kids.
So spent hours and hours inthose places.
So when I went across the Bay toBerkeley to go to university, I
(07:51):
just decided to follow myinterests, which was animals.
So I majored in zoology.
No clue what one could do withthat.
No clue.
Maybe work in a zoo.
Who knows?
But my brother was in forestry,and he told me there's a
professor here you might want tomeet.
His name is Starker Leopold.
(08:13):
And of course, Starker wasAldo's son, right?
And he runs a program calledWildlife Management or Wildlife
Biology.
And apparently there's jobs inthis field.
So I went over, overcame myshyness, met with him, and he
was wonderful.
He got me on the track, told mewhat my deficiencies were to get
(08:37):
prepared to pursue this career.
And I'll be forever thankful tohim for that.
SPEAKER_03 (08:42):
That's amazing.
I forgot that you had studiedunder Starbert Leopold.
That's pretty amazing.
Well, hey, let's shift to theWildlife Society.
What does TWS mean to youpersonally and professionally?
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
I have a quote I made up and I like to share with
people because it's absolutelytrue.
Without the Wildlife Society, Imight have had the same jobs,
but I would not have had thesame career.
And by that I mean I've had somegreat jobs, but they were what I
did to make a living.
(09:16):
The wildlife society, on theother hand, was um the backbone
of my existence.
It's kind of defined me as aprofessional, defined not only
what my profession was, my whatmy community was, you know, but
(09:37):
as well gave it defined mypurpose.
So there were the jobs, what Idid, and then there was the
wildlife society was who who Iwas and what I was a part of.
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
I love that, Winnie.
And I think that's such animportant part of what we are at
the Wildlife Society, is allabout building that community
because you know, a lot of timesyou're traveling and you're out
in remote areas, and it can feellike you're a little bit alone
in this profession from time totime.
And and that's what we reallystrive to bring here at the
Wildlife Society is a communitythat you can always come back
(10:11):
to.
SPEAKER_03 (10:13):
Carol, what's TWS mean to you?
SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
The first thing that came to mind is family.
I I think when he's put forwarda lot of really nice ideas about
how it provides something beyondjust your job.
And I feel like over the years,you know, the first conference
you go to, you don't knowanybody, and you stand on the
sites thinking, I wish I knewpeople.
The more you invest, the moreyou get back.
And so I see people that I'veknown for decades at our
(10:40):
meetings, or I can contact themand ask questions, or um just
check in with different people.
And so I feel like we have thisshared vision, which makes us a
family.
In that at our dinner table witha bunch of wildlife biologists,
we can talk about findingroadkill for bear bait, or
sticking a needle in some animalto draw blood, or you know, any
(11:05):
of the other things that we dowith wildlife that end up maybe
sounding off-putting to peoplenot in our profession.
So I I feel like that thoseshared experiences, you know,
like we all have probably donetelemetry or we've done things
that made us get up really earlyand we were out in the cold or
the rain or the dark or whateverit was, and that we all, because
(11:29):
of who we are and how much welove being outside, we all
remember those times with greatjoy and what we learned, what we
saw, what we experienced outthere as we're trying to help
conserve and manage wildlife.
So I think family is how I viewthe wildlife society.
(11:50):
And the more you put in, themore you get back.
SPEAKER_03 (11:53):
John, a couple tough acts to follow there.
What's TWS mean to you?
SPEAKER_04 (11:57):
DWS means many things to me, but I consider it
a community of practice thatgoes well beyond your
organization or agency.
And in that sense, it gives youperspective on cultures within
our profession.
For example, you know, I workedfor the U.S.
(12:19):
Fish and Wildlife Service for 35years and the U.S.
Geological Survey for anotherfive years.
And those agencies have theirown culture.
But by being engaged in TWS,going to chapter meetings,
section meetings, and annualconferences, you meet and become
engaged with people from otherorganizations and agencies.
(12:42):
And it just broadens yourperspectives so that when you go
back to your own agency and yourculture, you can uh better
critically think about issuesand things and maybe question
what were assumptions that wereingrained in your organizational
culture.
And uh the friendships andcolleagues that I have gained my
(13:09):
decades with Wildlife Societyare absolutely irreplaceable.
And I think as both Winnie andCarol have expressed, it's
allowed me to gain knowledgefrom the experiences of others
as well as you know what waspart of the original purpose of
the Wildlife Society.
And, you know, when folksconvened in 1936, where they
(13:33):
wanted to basically communicateand share information.
So the you know, the society hasdone all of that, and uh in the
last few years it's amped it upconsiderably.
Uh and you know, under yourleadership, Ed, I'll give you
real kudos because thecommunications that we receive
(13:55):
today on a regular basis arejust so beneficial.
And I think of the earlyprofessionals who are getting
the kind of exposure that uh wasdifficult to get in back in the
Miocene when you know I wasfirst in the profession, where
you just didn't have that kindof communication.
But but for me, it's just thatbroadened community of
(14:17):
colleagues and peers that I havetremendous respect for, that's
just given me knowledge andperspectives that are that are
just invaluable.
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
I certainly appreciate those kudos, but I
can say to the world, we have anincredible staff.
And they're dedicated to ourmembers and they come up with
new ideas.
And so I really appreciate thatperspective because that is the
platform of TWS, is to bringpeople together.
So it's a great, great view ofhow you can bring people in
(14:47):
their different agency culturestogether to go back, critically
think, solve problems, and havea network to call and discuss
things with.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Each of you have had such a storied career in the
wildlife profession, and you'vebeen members of TWS for much of
that, I would say.
How do you think that you haveseen TWS the guide and shape the
profession, either you know, youbeing involved in it or as part
of our large internationalnetwork?
SPEAKER_04 (15:15):
TWS, I believe, has done many things to shape the
profession, including helped tocreate the profession.
Back in the 1930s, the Americangame policy of 1930 called for
the creation of the professionwhere there was none.
And TWS filled that niche.
And what it's done, I think,over its many decades is kind of
(15:40):
break down the silos that arewithin the profession, from
agencies and organizations, andprovide a voice that goes beyond
the politics of particularagencies and organizations.
It's something that we aswildlife professionals can look
for to represent us when we maynot agree with the policies
(16:03):
within our own agency ororganization.
It's something that we can looktowards with pride.
And I'll give you an example.
Back in around 1990, when therewas talk about some
infrastructure development foroil in Alaska, Alaska Game and
(16:24):
Fish had to tow the party lineand say, you know, there's going
to be no impacts on Caribou.
Fish and Wildlife Service underGeorge H.W.
Bush had to say that, well,there might be some impacts, but
it's not going to be great.
Well, the leader of the AlaskaCooperative Fish and Wildlife
Research Unit uh represented theWildlife Society, and he was uh
(16:48):
you know foremost Arcticbiologist that studied caribou
all over the world.
He said, No, this is the realstory representing the wildlife
society.
And so it's you know, TWS hasthat strength that it can stand
up and be an honest roper onissues.
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Yeah.
Uh similar to John's thoughts,the way Minor organizes that, I
I recognize three phases for thewildlife society and how it
shaped the profession.
And in the beginning, itestablished the profession.
Like like John noted, there wasno Holly uh profession.
(17:30):
So it legitimized the practiceas a profession by setting
standards and also became aconduit for the science through
the creation of journals.
That happened very early on.
It's not enough just to beinward looking.
We need to play a bigger role,we need to bring the science
beyond the journals.
(17:52):
That's when the Waller Societybegan to involve itself and
encourage its members to beinvolved in informing policies
and decision making.
So to play that role.
And around a little bit afterthat, we had our first policy
staff member.
(18:13):
So that's the second major stepin this shaping.
And I think the third onehappened.
We used to not have an annualconference.
And well, I just thought Ididn't know if there'd be much
demand for that.
But they thought, well, we'lltry it out.
(18:35):
And so the first um the firstannual conference was held, and
the droves just turned out forthat.
And it completely changed theprofession and the Waller
Society by creating thiscommunity, this gathering, this
(18:55):
opportunity for folks tointeract face to face, form
networks, very importantly, thatthey used throughout the year
and that carried them forward intheir own careers and that build
and build and build on oneanother.
So that was an absolutelypivotal point in the Wildlife
Society's history, is thatformation of community and
(19:17):
networks.
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
Well, let's talk a little bit more about Leopold.
Thinking about your award, yourexperiences, and if Leopold were
actually alive today, what doyou think he'd be most proud of
since he helped form theWildlife Society back in the
30s?
SPEAKER_02 (19:35):
Well, I can't claim to be a Leopold expert, that's
for sure.
But I was thinking I I have readsome short stories or some it
was excerpts from writings hedid back in the early 1900s,
right after he graduated andcame out to Arizona to work.
And so it's been interesting tome to see how he described
(19:55):
Arizona and his work here andhow he sort of came to realize
that exterminating predators wasnot the way to go to provide
more hunting opportunities.
And he described areas that hadbasically no wildlife, no
huntable wildlife in Arizona.
And that's certainly not thecase now.
I can drive those same areas andsee a number of ungulate species
(20:19):
in a day, sometimes bears.
So I I think to me, I think hewould be proud of the
conservation and management thatwe have been able to do to bring
back some of those populationsthat were not regulated for
hunting at the time.
I think he'd be pleased to seehow state agencies are helping
(20:41):
conserve wildlife.
SPEAKER_03 (20:43):
What do you think, Leopold, would be most proud of?
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Well, I'll offer you two thoughts there.
You have to remember what he wasdealing with at the time when he
got when he started thisprofession.
And I think he'd look around andhe would see that populations of
elk and moose and deer andturkeys and everything, you
know, all these species thatwere on the brink, they were
(21:09):
expected to go extinct.
He would say, My God, you'vedone it.
You've pulled it out, you'veturned that around.
And he'd be very proud of that.
The other thing I think he'd bevery proud of, one of the most
poignant quotes I remember thathe ever said was that an
ecologist lives alone in a worldof wounds.
(21:30):
And what he meant by that, itreflected that at the time he
was doing his thing, thereweren't many people who had the
same understanding.
There were very few whounderstood what was going on in
terms of um to the naturalworld, the hurt that was
happening, and they felt kind ofalone.
(21:52):
So I have this fantasy that hewould come and go to one of our
conferences and he'd say, Oh myGod, look at this.
You know, all these people,they're thriving.
They're no longer alone in aworld of hurts, you know, just
so many of them, and they'resupporting each other and
they're interacting.
(22:12):
And yeah, I think that aspectwould would also be something
he'd be just tickled about andvery proud and pleased.
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
I like knowing that, you know, he he was hired to be
a forester and to cruise timberin Arizona, and and he got
distracted and started thinkingabout ecological relationships
and not timber values.
I I really liked reading thatabout him.
SPEAKER_04 (22:34):
I think he'd be incredibly proud uh at the
maturity of the profession.
You know, when he died in 1948,and of course, you know, the war
years really set a number ofthings back, but the profession
was still in its incipientstage.
You know, it started the processof restoration and science-based
management.
(22:55):
But if if you were to look atthe profession today and see the
breadth of it and theaccomplishments that have been
made in terms of restoration ofspecies and active uh management
of species and the focus onlandscapes and ecosystems, which
you know he presaged with youknow his work, I think he'd he'd
(23:17):
just be blown away, you know,given where the profession was
at when uh uh he was active.
SPEAKER_03 (23:25):
That's a global impact.
It's very clear to me that thatis a timeless treasure of the
San County Almanac thateverybody reads around the
globe.
What do you think he'd be mostdisappointed in if he was alive
to see some of the currentsituation and and some things
surrounding science andconservation?
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
I I think there's a a couple things.
I I think he would realizethere's a lot in decline.
He was very concerned about thepressures of development on the
natural world.
And even though there'scertainly been so some
successes, particularly for thespecies that were in deep
(24:05):
decline in his day, I think he'dsee that there still is a lot of
degradation of environmentshappening and which threaten
wildlife.
So that hasn't changed.
But uh the other thing I thinkwould affect him deeply, because
he he was pivotal in makingwildlife management a
(24:26):
science-based profession.
I think he'd be verydisappointed at, particularly in
the the present time, thisdistrust of science that's going
on, this kind of disregard forscience that's driven by
misinformation.
And he would be he would be hurtby that, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02 (24:49):
That's that's what I've been thinking about too, is
that yeah, he seemed to reallyvalue science and how we are
moving away from that.
And yet that's a lot of what TWSis trying to do is provide the
best science for managingwildlife and habitat loss,
things that you mentioned,Winnie.
The other thing I was thinkingabout is he proposed a land
(25:09):
ethic, and I think he'd bedisappointed to see that we
still don't really value naturalplaces, lands as we should.
You know, we still are losinghabitat, we're losing lands.
You know, there's a giantgarbage patch in the ocean.
You know, we are doing thingsthat are not supporting the
(25:30):
natural environment.
So I think you'd be disappointedwith that.
SPEAKER_04 (25:35):
Well, you know, it's Carol referenced the land ethic,
and this he didn't write this inthe land ethic, but one of his
writings in a, I believe it wasa forestry periodical, uh, he
said that we will not haveachieved conservation until
destructive uses of land is uhostracized by society.
(25:58):
And we're a long ways from that,an awful long ways.
And I think he would be reallydisappointed in the fact that,
you know, wildlife conservation,land conservation is not on the
political spectrum at all.
You know, and I wrote about thisin my Leopold address that if
(26:22):
you look at the platforms forthe major political parties and
what really inspires the generalpublic, I mean they will check
off a box on a survey saying,Oh, yeah, I like wildlife, but
the willingness to pay forconservation is is lacking, and
(26:42):
it's and it's not on thepolitical agenda with the major
parties, which reflects whatpeople are going to vote for.
And I think he'd be verydisappointed.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
Yeah, economics still drive our land use.
SPEAKER_03 (26:58):
What I think he'd be really disappointed is the fact
that he was warning us aboutthis disconnect with nature and
with wildlife when he wrote inone of his essays the quote on
the danger of not owning a farmis that one thinks heat comes
from the furnace and breakfastcomes from the grocer.
He was warning us about thisdisconnect with nature and the
(27:19):
general public.
And I think he'd be disappointedthat got so far away from us
because it shifted so far withthe values and the and just that
disconnect.
SPEAKER_00 (27:28):
So definitely.
Thinking about this idea of thedistrust of science in today's
age and moving away fromscience, as as researchers and
scientists that have dedicatedyour lives to this, what message
would you give to people whojust don't really understand
just how important science is tous?
SPEAKER_04 (27:48):
Well, you know, people rely on a number of
professions to guide theirlives, whether it's the medical
profession, whether it's thelegal profession, whether it's
the financial profession, andyou know, they and they take
stock in what the experts say,right?
(28:08):
And I guess my message would beyou know, wildlife is no
different.
Yet there's all sorts ofinformation that's out there,
and there's all sorts of punditsand advocates that talk about
wildlife and the environment andecology.
(28:29):
But trust the professionals,because that's a community that
has you know gone through themortar and the pestle to grind
out what is as close to truth aspossible.
SPEAKER_03 (28:44):
Well, it's tricky, right?
Because we we don't get trainedas wildlife professionals very
well anyway on communicating ourmessaging to the public.
And so having the rightmessenger is important.
And we're trying to put trainingprograms together to help
scientists.
But I always tell biologists, ifyou don't you better have your
one-floor elevator speech handywhen someone asks you what you
(29:08):
do, and they say, Oh, I studysage grass, and they're gonna
say, Well, why should I careabout that?
You better be ready, because ifyou start fumbling around or get
too science-y, you've lost them.
You got to relate it tosomething that's important to
people, the ecosystems that areprovide clean water, clean air,
and the species is part of it,however you message it, but it's
not about the data you gathered,that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
Yeah, I agree with all of that.
I've kind of been um a squeakywheel calling for better
communications of what we do tothe public.
Um, we've got great stories, youneed to share them.
But at this particular point intime, I guess the the message I
want to give to the public isdon't be duped.
(29:54):
There's so much misinformationout there now.
And the people Spreading thatmisinformation have their own
purposes for doing it, you needto be skeptical, you need to be
critical, you need to verify theinformation.
You, you know, take the time todo that.
(30:16):
And there are forces that wishto dupe you.
Don't let that happen.
And people just need to tofollow the facts on their own
and convince themselves ofwhat's right.
And that's unfortunatelycritical thinking is is appears
to be on the decline when itneeds to be prominence.
SPEAKER_04 (30:38):
One of the great things about Leopold and Rachel
Carson was that they couldcommunicate and they could write
in it in a narrative form.
There's a great book by RogerPielkey Jr., who's also in
Arizona, Gerald, the climatescientist.
And he talked, it's the book iscalled The Honest Broker.
And he talks about to haveconflict with opposing goals.
(31:03):
And people will cherry-pick,they'll they will they'll ignore
the facts, but they will cherrypick the narratives that seem to
speak to their or beliefs.
Uh you know, we're humans, youknow, we're basically
pro-Maticans, right?
And that narratives are are whatappeal to us.
(31:25):
And I think you know, we we needto find within our profession
the people and the means tocreate narratives that are going
to appeal to people and getthose messages across.
And and that part of that istelling us the story because
that resonates with people.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
You know, that takes me back to the college classroom
now, too, although I've justretired and I'm not in class
today.
Thinking about helping studentsdifferentiate fact from belief
was something I liked doing insophomore level classes and
having students evaluate, okay,here's a question, is it true or
false based on these data?
What do you think and why?
(32:05):
Getting people to get past whatthey believe in and understand
here's the factual basis, andmaybe it aligns with their
beliefs, but if it doesn't,helping them understand that
they need to shift their beliefsto follow fact and and science.
I think that's something we cando at all ages, you know,
(32:25):
starting with our children.
SPEAKER_03 (32:27):
Well, that's a great segue, Carol, but that was sage
advice for the public.
Uh, give us one piece of adviceeach of you would give students
in, you know, in early careerprofessionals that are getting
into the profession.
SPEAKER_02 (32:42):
Experience as much as you can, volunteer if you can
afford to, but but build yournetworks, get to know people,
join the wildlife society, youwill meet more people that way.
The more you give, the more youget back.
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
Yeah, I would encourage people to um step
outside their comfort zone,particularly when it comes to
experiencing different culturesand how you know you develop an
understanding in how wildlifeand the importance of it and how
everything works in NorthAmerica.
(33:16):
But the relationship humans andwildlife varies a lot from place
to place.
And all of that will affect thefuture of wildlife as well as
the future of people.
Set a goal throughout yourcareer of experiencing the world
more largely, and and that willenrich your life and your
(33:41):
professional competenceconsiderably.
SPEAKER_04 (33:44):
Well, I would I would emphasize expanding your
network outside of your own workculture and learn the value of
collaboration and the synergythat comes from that.
Creating time to think, whichis, I think, rare in people's
lives today.
Embrace diversity in thinking,what others think, and be
(34:06):
respectful of those withcounterviews, and strive to be
an honest brooper.
And what I would like, what Itell people, I I go back to
Alvis Murray in 1954 in thejournal Wildlife Management, in
a classic paper he wrote calledEthics and Wildlife Management.
And I'll paraphrase what hesaid, but essentially he said,
(34:27):
give our profession the dignityit deserves by helping the
public interpret facts that willcontribute to human
understanding of all in nature.
SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
Can you think of a moment in your career that just
you always come back to?
SPEAKER_01 (34:43):
Well, of course, the proudest moment is when I was
informed that I was picked forthe Leopold Award because that
is you are picked by your peers,and essentially your peers are
saying your career has not onlybeen worthwhile, it's been
exceptional, and nothing can topthat.
However, I have my own thingsthat I feel real accomplishment
(35:06):
having having been part of.
One of them was in my careerwith the Forest Service, at the
time the agency was starting tomake its important paradigm
shift from traditional sustainedyield management to
ecosystem-based management.
I was in a position to help thathappen, a position in
(35:27):
Washington, D.C.
where we helped that.
And I take great pride in that.
And the other thing is what Ioften say the hardest job I ever
had, but the one I'm proudestof, was building a brand new
natural resources program,forestry and wildlife program,
and fully interdisciplinaryprogram at a brand new
(35:51):
university, which was theUniversity of Northern BC.
Very, very tough.
Yeah.
But uh but looking back on itand looking at the the people we
graduated from that program andthe difference they're making,
uh great sense ofaccomplishment.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
Yeah, Winnie, it sounds like you've had a real
lasting impact, and it's nowonder that you were selected to
be a recipient of the highestaward that we can give.
John, what about you?
SPEAKER_04 (36:20):
Well, you know, I I guess I think in terms of things
that that humble me, you know,as opposed to, you know, pride
per se.
And I and what I think I'm mosthumbled by today is when I run
into former students that I'vementored, whether they were in
an undergraduate class I taught,graduate class I taught, or were
my former grad students, and uhand I hear from them and they
(36:44):
tell me how much I influencedtheir their lives and their
choices and their careers I'vehad.
You say, you know, I'm where Iam because of you, and I think,
you know, I I I didn't doanything, you know, and it just
it just really humbles you whenyou when you run into those
folks after years and years andyears, and they and they tell
(37:08):
you these things, and you say,I'm not I'm not worthy, I'm not
deserving of that kind of athing.
But it just I think underscoreshow important teaching and
mentoring is.
SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Yeah, keeping it in the past, can you think of a of
a moment in your career that youjust look back and you laugh and
you're like, wow, I can'tbelieve that happened to me or
that I did that.
And you know, tell us what youlearned from a blunder or a
funny field moment.
SPEAKER_04 (37:37):
Well, it involves a bear.
We were going in on a a bear denin the winter, and if this was
in western, actually not farfrom where I live now in western
Massachusetts, and thisparticular female we presumed
would have cubs, and she was ina very long brush pile in an old
(37:58):
clear cut.
And so we were, you know, wesnuck up on it and we were
digging through the snow andthrough the twigs, trying to
find her, we couldn't find her.
So I started to tunnel in fromone end of it.
And as I was tunneling in, I hada wire saw and I'm cutting the
branches, and I come to snowthat's that's hardened.
I thought, oh, there's somethingwarm on the other side.
(38:19):
So I'm getting excited.
I'm pounding it with my fist,breaking it, and going in, and I
can see within arm's reach blackfur that was just undulating.
And so I come back out.
I said, Oh my god, are you here?
And uh I said, Oh, can you canyou can you get a jab at her at
her butt or her shoulder?
I said, I'm not sure what I'mlooking at.
I went back in with aflashlight.
(38:39):
Again, the fur was justundulating them.
Looked, what am I looking at?
And all of a sudden, thiseyeball opens up, and I was face
to face with this adult femalebear, and I'm shining light
right in her eyes, I blinking,and we can't get her.
I can't get her from here.
And we tried to get in, but thecubs were crying.
She was popping her jaws, so wegave up.
(38:59):
We were able to capture herfollowing summer with hounds
treeing her, uh, but no sign ofthe cubs.
You know, she typically whatthey'll do is they'll send them
up a tree and take you on ajolly chase through the woods.
The next winter, she was in adifferent site in these rocks.
And so we went in, jabbed her,and I'm taking her out of the
den, you know, trying to bereally careful with her legs,
(39:23):
you know, and she'd take outthis mobilized animal, try not
to injure her, and I got whackedin the head.
And said, Load up another dart.
And so did that, and some one ofmy colleagues, Mark Sayer, the
late Mark Sayer, took that cubout and got whacked in the head.
Well, he was taken, it was ayearling point, of course.
And so we jabbed that last one,and I tumbled in from the top in
(39:48):
those rocks, and that we we hadto jab that 70-pound male cub
three times before he would godown.
But at that point, I was sittingwith my snowshoes off in this
hole I excavated with the bear'shead right between my legs, and
it's looking at me.
And it's only a 70-pound bear,but I said, This isn't going to
be good if he decides to take abreak for it.
(40:10):
Unfortunately, his eyes startedreaching and pull him out.
But Mark had a son that was areal uh handful, well, Jake.
So we we usually didn't namebears, but we named that one
Jake.
He was a handful.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
So my most serious blunders have been, I'd say,
call them cultural bluntblunders, failure to really
think about the culture I was inversus my own.
Some of them are sufficientlyembarrassing that better left
for a small group after I've hada pint or two.
Some of them are veryinstructional.
(40:45):
So, for example, in the 1980s, Ijoined a project in India
working between the U.S.
Forest Service, my employer, andthe Wildlife Institute of India.
And you have to understand thatwhen I came into the profession,
not only were there not reallyother women, they were very few,
(41:06):
but there was also attitudesthat women can't do the job, you
know.
Um, and so I had developed thiscreed that I would always pull
my own weight and be seen to bepulling my own weight.
So nobody could accuse me of,you know, not being up to the
(41:26):
task.
In preparing to go to India, Iknew we'd be traveling from park
to park and forest to forest ontrains a lot.
And this is before the days whensuitcases had wheels.
And so I thought, okay, how am Igoing to be self-sufficient
here?
So I found a luggage cart, likea foldable luggage cart, and I
(41:48):
said, boy, I'm set.
I'm going to show those guys.
So we'd pull into a trainstation, and the local people
would swoop in to help withbags, and I'd say, nope, thank
you.
Whip out my luggage cart, tieall my stuff on, and haul it up
the ramp.
And my colleagues were lookingat me like, especially the
Indian colleagues, like, hmm.
(42:10):
And so this went on for thefirst few days, and finally my
Indian colleague took me asideand he said, I've been delegated
to speak with you.
You are total embarrassment.
You are just embarrassing us todeath.
And I went, What?
(42:30):
Well, the way you whip out thatluggage cart and you, you know,
and I go, Well, I'm carrying myown weight.
I don't want to burden anybody.
He goes, those people that sweepin to get the luggage, that's
their job.
That's how they feed theirfamilies.
Everyone understands, exceptyou, that this is an essential
(42:50):
thing that they have to do tomake a living.
And you are depriving them ofthat source of income to feed
their families.
And I'm going, oh God.
That was a big lesson.
So, you know, always when you'regoing into someplace, kind of
park your assumptions behind andkind of figure out the landscape
(43:12):
before you start pullingblunders.
SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
I'm glad that someone eventually told you what
was going on.
But I I I wonder why they waitedso long and didn't just tell you
right away that this was, youknow, how it's done here.
Hoping I'd figure it out, whichI didn't, right?
SPEAKER_02 (43:27):
I was thinking like, what was something, a moment
that struck me with wildlife?
And I remember when we weredoing a big trapping project,
small mammal trapping project upin Oregon.
And I hadn't done a lot of workwith small mammals before.
So, and we were checking a lotof traps every day, and there
weren't very many of us.
So it was, you know, I wasgetting to see a lot of animals.
And I picked up a trap, youknow, a Sherman trap.
(43:49):
So one of the small box traps.
But picking up a trap and it waswarm.
And when you pick up a trap likethat says it's warm, it's not
just a mouse in it, it'ssomething bigger that's filling
the trap.
And so I I was used to at thetime we barehanded things.
Um, and and so I I pulled thetrap and I peeked in, and all I
(44:12):
could do are teeth.
And it's like, what type ofanimal has that many teeth?
So I I actually went back to thecar, got out a guide, started
keying out what this might be,brought my gloves back, and that
was the first weasel I caught.
So still happy that I was ableto, you know, emerge unscathed.
(44:33):
I think we'd caught mice in thattrap the previous three or four
days, and I'm sure it went intothis dark space thinking there's
going to be food in here.
So I remember that, you know,the excitement of seeing a new
animal.
Um so that was really fun, butbut I also thought it'd be good
to bring in how we can blunderwhen we're new to things.
(44:54):
But that's okay as long as welearn from those things.
You know, Winnie just mentionedwhat she learned from that
situation.
She's talked about thinkingabout cultures and respecting
the way other cultures practicethat might be different from the
way we do.
I was thinking about starting towork with New Mexico jumping
mice, which are an endangered,listed endangered.
(45:15):
So, you know, I have a Fish andWildlife Service permit.
I have a certain number that Ican take that I can harm or or
kill without my permit beingpulled.
And when we first startedworking with the animals, there
wasn't a whole lot known abouthow to do certain things with
them.
And so I remember when westarted trying to radio collar
(45:36):
them.
So you got this little tinyanimal that looks kind of like a
little kangaroo.
It's got small front seat, butvery powerful for pushing, and
it's got big back legs and canhop and a long tail.
And so I'm trying to put acollar over this animal and it
keeps, you know, flicking itoff, you know.
So we tried putting a little hatcovering over it.
We tried, we tried many things,and the animal stressed and we
(45:59):
recovered it, but it was scaryto almost lose this animal.
And so that was just thatlearning, learning how to do
this work.
You know, you can you canblunder, you can lose animals
that way.
And so networking with otherpeople, which is the next thing
I did, I called up two otherpeople who'd worked with the
animal and said, Have you everdone this?
(46:20):
And how do you do it?
And so the next month I cameback with somebody who had put
transmitters on other jumpingmice and other species.
And we successfully starteddoing that work.
And now I have about 80 homeranges for jumping mice.
But at the beginning phases, youknow, the whether it's the
beginning of your thesis, thebeginning of a new project, it's
(46:40):
the scariest part, you know,because you don't know what
you're doing yet.
There's so much to learn.
Um, so giving yourself a littlegrace and making sure you're
talking to other people,learning what you can, learning
about cultures, whatever itmight be.
You know, just forgive yourselfif you have failures.
We're all going to havefailures, and that's how we
learn.
SPEAKER_00 (46:59):
Well, Carol, Winnie, John, thank you three so much
for joining us today and fortaking us back and showing us
some history, telling us yourstory.
We just really appreciateeverything that you've
contributed to the professionand to our society.
So thank you so much for joiningus today.
SPEAKER_04 (47:15):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:17):
Thank you.
Hey everybody, welcome to the Our Wildlife
Podcast, brought to you by theWildlife Society.
I'm Ed Arnett, and I'm here withmy co-host, Katie Perkins.
And Katie, we have got some veryspecial guests to kick off our
podcast.
We're being joined by pastpresidents of the Wildlife
Society who are also elderlyLeopold Memorial Award winners.
(00:33):
So TWS royalty, if you will, andreally excited.
I've known all these folks for along time throughout my career.
They've been mentors andcolleagues, and I would say
friends as well.
So it's great to have everybodywith us.
I'd like to introduce ourguests, uh, Dr.
John Organ, who was president in2006 to 2007 with the Wildlife
(00:56):
Society, and our 2020 recipientof the Aldo Leopold Memorial
Award.
Dr.
Winifred Kessler, who goes byWinnie.
She was our president in 2012 to2013, and won the Aldo Leopold
Award in 2017.
And I might add only the secondwoman to win that award will be
(01:17):
the last by any stretch becausewe have the third woman who was
our Aldo Leopold Award recipientin 2023, uh, longtime friend and
colleague, Dr.
Carol Chambers, who also was thepresident in 2020 and 21.
Welcome to all of you.
Really great to see you and uhglad you're with us today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Carol, can you take us all the way back to the
beginning?
What sparked your interest inthe wildlife profession and a
desire to be a wildlifebiologist?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
I I love thinking about that question.
I I've been thinking about itbecause I often talk about it.
I loved animals when I was akid, but at that time there
weren't a lot of role models inwildlife.
I remember watching WildKingdom, which you may not have
heard about.
It was a TV program.
It was in a documentary onnature and wildlife, and every
(02:07):
week.
Um, I think it was MarlonPerkins who would go out in the
woods with a colleague who wouldjump on crocodiles or wrestle a
snake or somehow demonstrate anddifferent animals and where they
lived and talk about that.
And I really enjoyed that show.
I didn't see very many womendoing that kind of job.
(02:29):
So I really didn't know thatwildlife existed in the
profession.
So because I loved animals, Ithought I'm gonna go to college
and I'm gonna become a vet.
I'm gonna work with animals.
And working through a biologydegree, I volunteered with my
local vet and I discovered Idon't want to be a vet.
I don't want to, you know, spayin neuter animals.
And um, you know, they you knockthem out and they wake up and
(02:52):
they hate you.
Not deep really, but so Ithought I would be a zoo vet,
because that would be more withwild animals.
And then I thought the odds ofthat are pretty long.
And then I realized I want to goto Africa and see those animals
out in the wild.
And it wasn't until I finishedup my my undergraduate degree in
biology, and I was looking for amaster's program and I
(03:14):
discovered forestry at theUniversity of Kentucky, and
there was a wildlife biologistthere.
That's when I learned it was aprofession.
So I think we still have one ofthe greatest professions that
people don't tend to find outabout easily.
But there are certainly morerole models now than I had when
I was a kid.
So I don't know.
I loved animals, I love beingoutside.
Any day outside is a better day.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah, it's amazing how profound of an impact that
one show had on generations ofpeople because I hear that
common thread when I talk topeople and I ask them that
question.
John, what about you?
What sparked your interest?
SPEAKER_04 (03:47):
Well, Katie, I grew up in a time in a place where I
could spend a lot of timeoutdoors, uh unsupervised.
I grew up in the ConnecticutRiver Valley of Western
Massachusetts, where we we hadsome land that went down into
the meadows that flooded everyyear from the river.
My grandfather's farm was onwhat at one point was uh an
(04:10):
island in the Connecticut River,the Oxbow.
And so I spent an awful lot oftime outdoors, and wildlife were
the bonus.
You know, they were they justfascinated me and my friends,
and we talked about them all thetime, whether it was a red fox,
you know, whether it was a blackbear, whether it was a snapping
(04:32):
turtle when you were waiting andwondering if you're going to get
your toes chewed off.
And then I think throughNational Geographic magazine, I
followed the Craighead brothers.
And John Craighead was theleader of the Montana
Cooperative Wildlife ResearchUnit.
And of course, you know, theiruh landmark work on grizzly
bears in Yellowstone justfascinated me.
(04:54):
And that's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to chase grizzliesaround Yellowstone.
And then when I was in highschool, I was watching a local
program where they wereinterviewing a man by the name
of Chet McCord, who was awildlife biologist with the
Massachusetts Division ofFisheries and Wildlife, and he
was talking about the bobcatresearch he was doing in
(05:15):
west-central Massachusetts.
I said, that's what I want todo.
And so I entered the Universityof Massachusetts at Amherst as a
wildlife biology major.
And never looked back.
I was very fortunate in that Iwas able to live some of my
dreams, you know, in terms of uhlong-term study on Canada Lynx,
(05:36):
worked with bobcats, worked withblack bears and uh Andean bears
in Peru, and got trained by agrizzly and had an up close and
personal coming.
I think I told you about that,Ed, just within the last week at
the end of July with fourgrizzlies.
I was in Alaska that I waswithin 10 feet of.
(05:57):
Not the most comfortablesituation.
But yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:00):
It's an amazing and frightening experience all in
the same baron.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
I love how casually wildlife professionals will just
drop little tidbits of that,like, oh, I got treed by a
grizzly bear.
You know, like and it's justtotally normal.
Nobody bats an eye.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Well, I got charged, charged by a brown bear on
Abuchi Island up in Alaska.
So I'm in I'm in the the bearencounter club too.
SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
My closest encounter to anything like that was waking
up after uh I guess I'd been uhdoing telemetry all night, and
and there was I startled abobcat that was sleeping near
the tent.
But that's not like having abrown bear charge you.
I'd like to hear that storysometime.
SPEAKER_03 (06:38):
But winning what sparked your interest in
wildlife.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
So my colleagues are usually surprised when I
explained that I was a city kid.
I was born and raised in SanFrancisco.
However, we didn't even have acar to get around, you know,
everything was on foot or bus,but the location was great
because we had Golden Gate Parkacross the street and the
Pacific Ocean, literally at theend of the block.
So, like John, we werefree-range kids.
(07:05):
We wandered.
We were allowed to in thosedays.
And the wildlife in the park wasreally of interest.
And my mother was quitetolerant.
She let us bring home snakes andwounded ducks and caterpillars
to metamorphose and tadpoles togrow out into frogs, and that
that all sparked that interest.
(07:26):
And the other advantage of thecity location was that the
California Academy of Sciencewas within walking range and the
zoo.
And we were able to get in forfree in those days.
That was important to kids.
So spent hours and hours inthose places.
So when I went across the Bay toBerkeley to go to university, I
(07:51):
just decided to follow myinterests, which was animals.
So I majored in zoology.
No clue what one could do withthat.
No clue.
Maybe work in a zoo.
Who knows?
But my brother was in forestry,and he told me there's a
professor here you might want tomeet.
His name is Starker Leopold.
(08:13):
And of course, Starker wasAldo's son, right?
And he runs a program calledWildlife Management or Wildlife
Biology.
And apparently there's jobs inthis field.
So I went over, overcame myshyness, met with him, and he
was wonderful.
He got me on the track, told mewhat my deficiencies were to get
(08:37):
prepared to pursue this career.
And I'll be forever thankful tohim for that.
SPEAKER_03 (08:42):
That's amazing.
I forgot that you had studiedunder Starbert Leopold.
That's pretty amazing.
Well, hey, let's shift to theWildlife Society.
What does TWS mean to youpersonally and professionally?
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
I have a quote I made up and I like to share with
people because it's absolutelytrue.
Without the Wildlife Society, Imight have had the same jobs,
but I would not have had thesame career.
And by that I mean I've had somegreat jobs, but they were what I
did to make a living.
(09:16):
The wildlife society, on theother hand, was um the backbone
of my existence.
It's kind of defined me as aprofessional, defined not only
what my profession was, my whatmy community was, you know, but
(09:37):
as well gave it defined mypurpose.
So there were the jobs, what Idid, and then there was the
wildlife society was who who Iwas and what I was a part of.
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
I love that, Winnie.
And I think that's such animportant part of what we are at
the Wildlife Society, is allabout building that community
because you know, a lot of timesyou're traveling and you're out
in remote areas, and it can feellike you're a little bit alone
in this profession from time totime.
And and that's what we reallystrive to bring here at the
Wildlife Society is a communitythat you can always come back
(10:11):
to.
SPEAKER_03 (10:13):
Carol, what's TWS mean to you?
SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
The first thing that came to mind is family.
I I think when he's put forwarda lot of really nice ideas about
how it provides something beyondjust your job.
And I feel like over the years,you know, the first conference
you go to, you don't knowanybody, and you stand on the
sites thinking, I wish I knewpeople.
The more you invest, the moreyou get back.
And so I see people that I'veknown for decades at our
(10:40):
meetings, or I can contact themand ask questions, or um just
check in with different people.
And so I feel like we have thisshared vision, which makes us a
family.
In that at our dinner table witha bunch of wildlife biologists,
we can talk about findingroadkill for bear bait, or
sticking a needle in some animalto draw blood, or you know, any
(11:05):
of the other things that we dowith wildlife that end up maybe
sounding off-putting to peoplenot in our profession.
So I I feel like that thoseshared experiences, you know,
like we all have probably donetelemetry or we've done things
that made us get up really earlyand we were out in the cold or
the rain or the dark or whateverit was, and that we all, because
(11:29):
of who we are and how much welove being outside, we all
remember those times with greatjoy and what we learned, what we
saw, what we experienced outthere as we're trying to help
conserve and manage wildlife.
So I think family is how I viewthe wildlife society.
(11:50):
And the more you put in, themore you get back.
SPEAKER_03 (11:53):
John, a couple tough acts to follow there.
What's TWS mean to you?
SPEAKER_04 (11:57):
DWS means many things to me, but I consider it
a community of practice thatgoes well beyond your
organization or agency.
And in that sense, it gives youperspective on cultures within
our profession.
For example, you know, I workedfor the U.S.
(12:19):
Fish and Wildlife Service for 35years and the U.S.
Geological Survey for anotherfive years.
And those agencies have theirown culture.
But by being engaged in TWS,going to chapter meetings,
section meetings, and annualconferences, you meet and become
engaged with people from otherorganizations and agencies.
(12:42):
And it just broadens yourperspectives so that when you go
back to your own agency and yourculture, you can uh better
critically think about issuesand things and maybe question
what were assumptions that wereingrained in your organizational
culture.
And uh the friendships andcolleagues that I have gained my
(13:09):
decades with Wildlife Societyare absolutely irreplaceable.
And I think as both Winnie andCarol have expressed, it's
allowed me to gain knowledgefrom the experiences of others
as well as you know what waspart of the original purpose of
the Wildlife Society.
And, you know, when folksconvened in 1936, where they
(13:33):
wanted to basically communicateand share information.
So the you know, the society hasdone all of that, and uh in the
last few years it's amped it upconsiderably.
Uh and you know, under yourleadership, Ed, I'll give you
real kudos because thecommunications that we receive
(13:55):
today on a regular basis arejust so beneficial.
And I think of the earlyprofessionals who are getting
the kind of exposure that uh wasdifficult to get in back in the
Miocene when you know I wasfirst in the profession, where
you just didn't have that kindof communication.
But but for me, it's just thatbroadened community of
(14:17):
colleagues and peers that I havetremendous respect for, that's
just given me knowledge andperspectives that are that are
just invaluable.
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
I certainly appreciate those kudos, but I
can say to the world, we have anincredible staff.
And they're dedicated to ourmembers and they come up with
new ideas.
And so I really appreciate thatperspective because that is the
platform of TWS, is to bringpeople together.
So it's a great, great view ofhow you can bring people in
(14:47):
their different agency culturestogether to go back, critically
think, solve problems, and havea network to call and discuss
things with.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Each of you have had such a storied career in the
wildlife profession, and you'vebeen members of TWS for much of
that, I would say.
How do you think that you haveseen TWS the guide and shape the
profession, either you know, youbeing involved in it or as part
of our large internationalnetwork?
SPEAKER_04 (15:15):
TWS, I believe, has done many things to shape the
profession, including helped tocreate the profession.
Back in the 1930s, the Americangame policy of 1930 called for
the creation of the professionwhere there was none.
And TWS filled that niche.
And what it's done, I think,over its many decades is kind of
(15:40):
break down the silos that arewithin the profession, from
agencies and organizations, andprovide a voice that goes beyond
the politics of particularagencies and organizations.
It's something that we aswildlife professionals can look
for to represent us when we maynot agree with the policies
(16:03):
within our own agency ororganization.
It's something that we can looktowards with pride.
And I'll give you an example.
Back in around 1990, when therewas talk about some
infrastructure development foroil in Alaska, Alaska Game and
(16:24):
Fish had to tow the party lineand say, you know, there's going
to be no impacts on Caribou.
Fish and Wildlife Service underGeorge H.W.
Bush had to say that, well,there might be some impacts, but
it's not going to be great.
Well, the leader of the AlaskaCooperative Fish and Wildlife
Research Unit uh represented theWildlife Society, and he was uh
(16:48):
you know foremost Arcticbiologist that studied caribou
all over the world.
He said, No, this is the realstory representing the wildlife
society.
And so it's you know, TWS hasthat strength that it can stand
up and be an honest roper onissues.
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Yeah.
Uh similar to John's thoughts,the way Minor organizes that, I
I recognize three phases for thewildlife society and how it
shaped the profession.
And in the beginning, itestablished the profession.
Like like John noted, there wasno Holly uh profession.
(17:30):
So it legitimized the practiceas a profession by setting
standards and also became aconduit for the science through
the creation of journals.
That happened very early on.
It's not enough just to beinward looking.
We need to play a bigger role,we need to bring the science
beyond the journals.
(17:52):
That's when the Waller Societybegan to involve itself and
encourage its members to beinvolved in informing policies
and decision making.
So to play that role.
And around a little bit afterthat, we had our first policy
staff member.
(18:13):
So that's the second major stepin this shaping.
And I think the third onehappened.
We used to not have an annualconference.
And well, I just thought Ididn't know if there'd be much
demand for that.
But they thought, well, we'lltry it out.
(18:35):
And so the first um the firstannual conference was held, and
the droves just turned out forthat.
And it completely changed theprofession and the Waller
Society by creating thiscommunity, this gathering, this
(18:55):
opportunity for folks tointeract face to face, form
networks, very importantly, thatthey used throughout the year
and that carried them forward intheir own careers and that build
and build and build on oneanother.
So that was an absolutelypivotal point in the Wildlife
Society's history, is thatformation of community and
(19:17):
networks.
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
Well, let's talk a little bit more about Leopold.
Thinking about your award, yourexperiences, and if Leopold were
actually alive today, what doyou think he'd be most proud of
since he helped form theWildlife Society back in the
30s?
SPEAKER_02 (19:35):
Well, I can't claim to be a Leopold expert, that's
for sure.
But I was thinking I I have readsome short stories or some it
was excerpts from writings hedid back in the early 1900s,
right after he graduated andcame out to Arizona to work.
And so it's been interesting tome to see how he described
(19:55):
Arizona and his work here andhow he sort of came to realize
that exterminating predators wasnot the way to go to provide
more hunting opportunities.
And he described areas that hadbasically no wildlife, no
huntable wildlife in Arizona.
And that's certainly not thecase now.
I can drive those same areas andsee a number of ungulate species
(20:19):
in a day, sometimes bears.
So I I think to me, I think hewould be proud of the
conservation and management thatwe have been able to do to bring
back some of those populationsthat were not regulated for
hunting at the time.
I think he'd be pleased to seehow state agencies are helping
(20:41):
conserve wildlife.
SPEAKER_03 (20:43):
What do you think, Leopold, would be most proud of?
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Well, I'll offer you two thoughts there.
You have to remember what he wasdealing with at the time when he
got when he started thisprofession.
And I think he'd look around andhe would see that populations of
elk and moose and deer andturkeys and everything, you
know, all these species thatwere on the brink, they were
(21:09):
expected to go extinct.
He would say, My God, you'vedone it.
You've pulled it out, you'veturned that around.
And he'd be very proud of that.
The other thing I think he'd bevery proud of, one of the most
poignant quotes I remember thathe ever said was that an
ecologist lives alone in a worldof wounds.
(21:30):
And what he meant by that, itreflected that at the time he
was doing his thing, thereweren't many people who had the
same understanding.
There were very few whounderstood what was going on in
terms of um to the naturalworld, the hurt that was
happening, and they felt kind ofalone.
(21:52):
So I have this fantasy that hewould come and go to one of our
conferences and he'd say, Oh myGod, look at this.
You know, all these people,they're thriving.
They're no longer alone in aworld of hurts, you know, just
so many of them, and they'resupporting each other and
they're interacting.
(22:12):
And yeah, I think that aspectwould would also be something
he'd be just tickled about andvery proud and pleased.
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
I like knowing that, you know, he he was hired to be
a forester and to cruise timberin Arizona, and and he got
distracted and started thinkingabout ecological relationships
and not timber values.
I I really liked reading thatabout him.
SPEAKER_04 (22:34):
I think he'd be incredibly proud uh at the
maturity of the profession.
You know, when he died in 1948,and of course, you know, the war
years really set a number ofthings back, but the profession
was still in its incipientstage.
You know, it started the processof restoration and science-based
management.
(22:55):
But if if you were to look atthe profession today and see the
breadth of it and theaccomplishments that have been
made in terms of restoration ofspecies and active uh management
of species and the focus onlandscapes and ecosystems, which
you know he presaged with youknow his work, I think he'd he'd
(23:17):
just be blown away, you know,given where the profession was
at when uh uh he was active.
SPEAKER_03 (23:25):
That's a global impact.
It's very clear to me that thatis a timeless treasure of the
San County Almanac thateverybody reads around the
globe.
What do you think he'd be mostdisappointed in if he was alive
to see some of the currentsituation and and some things
surrounding science andconservation?
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
I I think there's a a couple things.
I I think he would realizethere's a lot in decline.
He was very concerned about thepressures of development on the
natural world.
And even though there'scertainly been so some
successes, particularly for thespecies that were in deep
(24:05):
decline in his day, I think he'dsee that there still is a lot of
degradation of environmentshappening and which threaten
wildlife.
So that hasn't changed.
But uh the other thing I thinkwould affect him deeply, because
he he was pivotal in makingwildlife management a
(24:26):
science-based profession.
I think he'd be verydisappointed at, particularly in
the the present time, thisdistrust of science that's going
on, this kind of disregard forscience that's driven by
misinformation.
And he would be he would be hurtby that, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02 (24:49):
That's that's what I've been thinking about too, is
that yeah, he seemed to reallyvalue science and how we are
moving away from that.
And yet that's a lot of what TWSis trying to do is provide the
best science for managingwildlife and habitat loss,
things that you mentioned,Winnie.
The other thing I was thinkingabout is he proposed a land
(25:09):
ethic, and I think he'd bedisappointed to see that we
still don't really value naturalplaces, lands as we should.
You know, we still are losinghabitat, we're losing lands.
You know, there's a giantgarbage patch in the ocean.
You know, we are doing thingsthat are not supporting the
(25:30):
natural environment.
So I think you'd be disappointedwith that.
SPEAKER_04 (25:35):
Well, you know, it's Carol referenced the land ethic,
and this he didn't write this inthe land ethic, but one of his
writings in a, I believe it wasa forestry periodical, uh, he
said that we will not haveachieved conservation until
destructive uses of land is uhostracized by society.
(25:58):
And we're a long ways from that,an awful long ways.
And I think he would be reallydisappointed in the fact that,
you know, wildlife conservation,land conservation is not on the
political spectrum at all.
You know, and I wrote about thisin my Leopold address that if
(26:22):
you look at the platforms forthe major political parties and
what really inspires the generalpublic, I mean they will check
off a box on a survey saying,Oh, yeah, I like wildlife, but
the willingness to pay forconservation is is lacking, and
(26:42):
it's and it's not on thepolitical agenda with the major
parties, which reflects whatpeople are going to vote for.
And I think he'd be verydisappointed.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
Yeah, economics still drive our land use.
SPEAKER_03 (26:58):
What I think he'd be really disappointed is the fact
that he was warning us aboutthis disconnect with nature and
with wildlife when he wrote inone of his essays the quote on
the danger of not owning a farmis that one thinks heat comes
from the furnace and breakfastcomes from the grocer.
He was warning us about thisdisconnect with nature and the
(27:19):
general public.
And I think he'd be disappointedthat got so far away from us
because it shifted so far withthe values and the and just that
disconnect.
SPEAKER_00 (27:28):
So definitely.
Thinking about this idea of thedistrust of science in today's
age and moving away fromscience, as as researchers and
scientists that have dedicatedyour lives to this, what message
would you give to people whojust don't really understand
just how important science is tous?
SPEAKER_04 (27:48):
Well, you know, people rely on a number of
professions to guide theirlives, whether it's the medical
profession, whether it's thelegal profession, whether it's
the financial profession, andyou know, they and they take
stock in what the experts say,right?
(28:08):
And I guess my message would beyou know, wildlife is no
different.
Yet there's all sorts ofinformation that's out there,
and there's all sorts of punditsand advocates that talk about
wildlife and the environment andecology.
(28:29):
But trust the professionals,because that's a community that
has you know gone through themortar and the pestle to grind
out what is as close to truth aspossible.
SPEAKER_03 (28:44):
Well, it's tricky, right?
Because we we don't get trainedas wildlife professionals very
well anyway on communicating ourmessaging to the public.
And so having the rightmessenger is important.
And we're trying to put trainingprograms together to help
scientists.
But I always tell biologists, ifyou don't you better have your
one-floor elevator speech handywhen someone asks you what you
(29:08):
do, and they say, Oh, I studysage grass, and they're gonna
say, Well, why should I careabout that?
You better be ready, because ifyou start fumbling around or get
too science-y, you've lost them.
You got to relate it tosomething that's important to
people, the ecosystems that areprovide clean water, clean air,
and the species is part of it,however you message it, but it's
not about the data you gathered,that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
Yeah, I agree with all of that.
I've kind of been um a squeakywheel calling for better
communications of what we do tothe public.
Um, we've got great stories, youneed to share them.
But at this particular point intime, I guess the the message I
want to give to the public isdon't be duped.
(29:54):
There's so much misinformationout there now.
And the people Spreading thatmisinformation have their own
purposes for doing it, you needto be skeptical, you need to be
critical, you need to verify theinformation.
You, you know, take the time todo that.
(30:16):
And there are forces that wishto dupe you.
Don't let that happen.
And people just need to tofollow the facts on their own
and convince themselves ofwhat's right.
And that's unfortunatelycritical thinking is is appears
to be on the decline when itneeds to be prominence.
SPEAKER_04 (30:38):
One of the great things about Leopold and Rachel
Carson was that they couldcommunicate and they could write
in it in a narrative form.
There's a great book by RogerPielkey Jr., who's also in
Arizona, Gerald, the climatescientist.
And he talked, it's the book iscalled The Honest Broker.
And he talks about to haveconflict with opposing goals.
(31:03):
And people will cherry-pick,they'll they will they'll ignore
the facts, but they will cherrypick the narratives that seem to
speak to their or beliefs.
Uh you know, we're humans, youknow, we're basically
pro-Maticans, right?
And that narratives are are whatappeal to us.
(31:25):
And I think you know, we we needto find within our profession
the people and the means tocreate narratives that are going
to appeal to people and getthose messages across.
And and that part of that istelling us the story because
that resonates with people.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
You know, that takes me back to the college classroom
now, too, although I've justretired and I'm not in class
today.
Thinking about helping studentsdifferentiate fact from belief
was something I liked doing insophomore level classes and
having students evaluate, okay,here's a question, is it true or
false based on these data?
What do you think and why?
(32:05):
Getting people to get past whatthey believe in and understand
here's the factual basis, andmaybe it aligns with their
beliefs, but if it doesn't,helping them understand that
they need to shift their beliefsto follow fact and and science.
I think that's something we cando at all ages, you know,
(32:25):
starting with our children.
SPEAKER_03 (32:27):
Well, that's a great segue, Carol, but that was sage
advice for the public.
Uh, give us one piece of adviceeach of you would give students
in, you know, in early careerprofessionals that are getting
into the profession.
SPEAKER_02 (32:42):
Experience as much as you can, volunteer if you can
afford to, but but build yournetworks, get to know people,
join the wildlife society, youwill meet more people that way.
The more you give, the more youget back.
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
Yeah, I would encourage people to um step
outside their comfort zone,particularly when it comes to
experiencing different culturesand how you know you develop an
understanding in how wildlifeand the importance of it and how
everything works in NorthAmerica.
(33:16):
But the relationship humans andwildlife varies a lot from place
to place.
And all of that will affect thefuture of wildlife as well as
the future of people.
Set a goal throughout yourcareer of experiencing the world
more largely, and and that willenrich your life and your
(33:41):
professional competenceconsiderably.
SPEAKER_04 (33:44):
Well, I would I would emphasize expanding your
network outside of your own workculture and learn the value of
collaboration and the synergythat comes from that.
Creating time to think, whichis, I think, rare in people's
lives today.
Embrace diversity in thinking,what others think, and be
(34:06):
respectful of those withcounterviews, and strive to be
an honest brooper.
And what I would like, what Itell people, I I go back to
Alvis Murray in 1954 in thejournal Wildlife Management, in
a classic paper he wrote calledEthics and Wildlife Management.
And I'll paraphrase what hesaid, but essentially he said,
(34:27):
give our profession the dignityit deserves by helping the
public interpret facts that willcontribute to human
understanding of all in nature.
SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
Can you think of a moment in your career that just
you always come back to?
SPEAKER_01 (34:43):
Well, of course, the proudest moment is when I was
informed that I was picked forthe Leopold Award because that
is you are picked by your peers,and essentially your peers are
saying your career has not onlybeen worthwhile, it's been
exceptional, and nothing can topthat.
However, I have my own thingsthat I feel real accomplishment
(35:06):
having having been part of.
One of them was in my careerwith the Forest Service, at the
time the agency was starting tomake its important paradigm
shift from traditional sustainedyield management to
ecosystem-based management.
I was in a position to help thathappen, a position in
(35:27):
Washington, D.C.
where we helped that.
And I take great pride in that.
And the other thing is what Ioften say the hardest job I ever
had, but the one I'm proudestof, was building a brand new
natural resources program,forestry and wildlife program,
and fully interdisciplinaryprogram at a brand new
(35:51):
university, which was theUniversity of Northern BC.
Very, very tough.
Yeah.
But uh but looking back on itand looking at the the people we
graduated from that program andthe difference they're making,
uh great sense ofaccomplishment.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
Yeah, Winnie, it sounds like you've had a real
lasting impact, and it's nowonder that you were selected to
be a recipient of the highestaward that we can give.
John, what about you?
SPEAKER_04 (36:20):
Well, you know, I I guess I think in terms of things
that that humble me, you know,as opposed to, you know, pride
per se.
And I and what I think I'm mosthumbled by today is when I run
into former students that I'vementored, whether they were in
an undergraduate class I taught,graduate class I taught, or were
my former grad students, and uhand I hear from them and they
(36:44):
tell me how much I influencedtheir their lives and their
choices and their careers I'vehad.
You say, you know, I'm where Iam because of you, and I think,
you know, I I I didn't doanything, you know, and it just
it just really humbles you whenyou when you run into those
folks after years and years andyears, and they and they tell
(37:08):
you these things, and you say,I'm not I'm not worthy, I'm not
deserving of that kind of athing.
But it just I think underscoreshow important teaching and
mentoring is.
SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Yeah, keeping it in the past, can you think of a of
a moment in your career that youjust look back and you laugh and
you're like, wow, I can'tbelieve that happened to me or
that I did that.
And you know, tell us what youlearned from a blunder or a
funny field moment.
SPEAKER_04 (37:37):
Well, it involves a bear.
We were going in on a a bear denin the winter, and if this was
in western, actually not farfrom where I live now in western
Massachusetts, and thisparticular female we presumed
would have cubs, and she was ina very long brush pile in an old
(37:58):
clear cut.
And so we were, you know, wesnuck up on it and we were
digging through the snow andthrough the twigs, trying to
find her, we couldn't find her.
So I started to tunnel in fromone end of it.
And as I was tunneling in, I hada wire saw and I'm cutting the
branches, and I come to snowthat's that's hardened.
I thought, oh, there's somethingwarm on the other side.
(38:19):
So I'm getting excited.
I'm pounding it with my fist,breaking it, and going in, and I
can see within arm's reach blackfur that was just undulating.
And so I come back out.
I said, Oh my god, are you here?
And uh I said, Oh, can you canyou can you get a jab at her at
her butt or her shoulder?
I said, I'm not sure what I'mlooking at.
I went back in with aflashlight.
(38:39):
Again, the fur was justundulating them.
Looked, what am I looking at?
And all of a sudden, thiseyeball opens up, and I was face
to face with this adult femalebear, and I'm shining light
right in her eyes, I blinking,and we can't get her.
I can't get her from here.
And we tried to get in, but thecubs were crying.
She was popping her jaws, so wegave up.
(38:59):
We were able to capture herfollowing summer with hounds
treeing her, uh, but no sign ofthe cubs.
You know, she typically whatthey'll do is they'll send them
up a tree and take you on ajolly chase through the woods.
The next winter, she was in adifferent site in these rocks.
And so we went in, jabbed her,and I'm taking her out of the
den, you know, trying to bereally careful with her legs,
(39:23):
you know, and she'd take outthis mobilized animal, try not
to injure her, and I got whackedin the head.
And said, Load up another dart.
And so did that, and some one ofmy colleagues, Mark Sayer, the
late Mark Sayer, took that cubout and got whacked in the head.
Well, he was taken, it was ayearling point, of course.
And so we jabbed that last one,and I tumbled in from the top in
(39:48):
those rocks, and that we we hadto jab that 70-pound male cub
three times before he would godown.
But at that point, I was sittingwith my snowshoes off in this
hole I excavated with the bear'shead right between my legs, and
it's looking at me.
And it's only a 70-pound bear,but I said, This isn't going to
be good if he decides to take abreak for it.
(40:10):
Unfortunately, his eyes startedreaching and pull him out.
But Mark had a son that was areal uh handful, well, Jake.
So we we usually didn't namebears, but we named that one
Jake.
He was a handful.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
So my most serious blunders have been, I'd say,
call them cultural bluntblunders, failure to really
think about the culture I was inversus my own.
Some of them are sufficientlyembarrassing that better left
for a small group after I've hada pint or two.
Some of them are veryinstructional.
(40:45):
So, for example, in the 1980s, Ijoined a project in India
working between the U.S.
Forest Service, my employer, andthe Wildlife Institute of India.
And you have to understand thatwhen I came into the profession,
not only were there not reallyother women, they were very few,
(41:06):
but there was also attitudesthat women can't do the job, you
know.
Um, and so I had developed thiscreed that I would always pull
my own weight and be seen to bepulling my own weight.
So nobody could accuse me of,you know, not being up to the
(41:26):
task.
In preparing to go to India, Iknew we'd be traveling from park
to park and forest to forest ontrains a lot.
And this is before the days whensuitcases had wheels.
And so I thought, okay, how am Igoing to be self-sufficient
here?
So I found a luggage cart, likea foldable luggage cart, and I
(41:48):
said, boy, I'm set.
I'm going to show those guys.
So we'd pull into a trainstation, and the local people
would swoop in to help withbags, and I'd say, nope, thank
you.
Whip out my luggage cart, tieall my stuff on, and haul it up
the ramp.
And my colleagues were lookingat me like, especially the
Indian colleagues, like, hmm.
(42:10):
And so this went on for thefirst few days, and finally my
Indian colleague took me asideand he said, I've been delegated
to speak with you.
You are total embarrassment.
You are just embarrassing us todeath.
And I went, What?
(42:30):
Well, the way you whip out thatluggage cart and you, you know,
and I go, Well, I'm carrying myown weight.
I don't want to burden anybody.
He goes, those people that sweepin to get the luggage, that's
their job.
That's how they feed theirfamilies.
Everyone understands, exceptyou, that this is an essential
(42:50):
thing that they have to do tomake a living.
And you are depriving them ofthat source of income to feed
their families.
And I'm going, oh God.
That was a big lesson.
So, you know, always when you'regoing into someplace, kind of
park your assumptions behind andkind of figure out the landscape
(43:12):
before you start pullingblunders.
SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
I'm glad that someone eventually told you what
was going on.
But I I I wonder why they waitedso long and didn't just tell you
right away that this was, youknow, how it's done here.
Hoping I'd figure it out, whichI didn't, right?
SPEAKER_02 (43:27):
I was thinking like, what was something, a moment
that struck me with wildlife?
And I remember when we weredoing a big trapping project,
small mammal trapping project upin Oregon.
And I hadn't done a lot of workwith small mammals before.
So, and we were checking a lotof traps every day, and there
weren't very many of us.
So it was, you know, I wasgetting to see a lot of animals.
And I picked up a trap, youknow, a Sherman trap.
(43:49):
So one of the small box traps.
But picking up a trap and it waswarm.
And when you pick up a trap likethat says it's warm, it's not
just a mouse in it, it'ssomething bigger that's filling
the trap.
And so I I was used to at thetime we barehanded things.
Um, and and so I I pulled thetrap and I peeked in, and all I
(44:12):
could do are teeth.
And it's like, what type ofanimal has that many teeth?
So I I actually went back to thecar, got out a guide, started
keying out what this might be,brought my gloves back, and that
was the first weasel I caught.
So still happy that I was ableto, you know, emerge unscathed.
(44:33):
I think we'd caught mice in thattrap the previous three or four
days, and I'm sure it went intothis dark space thinking there's
going to be food in here.
So I remember that, you know,the excitement of seeing a new
animal.
Um so that was really fun, butbut I also thought it'd be good
to bring in how we can blunderwhen we're new to things.
(44:54):
But that's okay as long as welearn from those things.
You know, Winnie just mentionedwhat she learned from that
situation.
She's talked about thinkingabout cultures and respecting
the way other cultures practicethat might be different from the
way we do.
I was thinking about starting towork with New Mexico jumping
mice, which are an endangered,listed endangered.
(45:15):
So, you know, I have a Fish andWildlife Service permit.
I have a certain number that Ican take that I can harm or or
kill without my permit beingpulled.
And when we first startedworking with the animals, there
wasn't a whole lot known abouthow to do certain things with
them.
And so I remember when westarted trying to radio collar
(45:36):
them.
So you got this little tinyanimal that looks kind of like a
little kangaroo.
It's got small front seat, butvery powerful for pushing, and
it's got big back legs and canhop and a long tail.
And so I'm trying to put acollar over this animal and it
keeps, you know, flicking itoff, you know.
So we tried putting a little hatcovering over it.
We tried, we tried many things,and the animal stressed and we
(45:59):
recovered it, but it was scaryto almost lose this animal.
And so that was just thatlearning, learning how to do
this work.
You know, you can you canblunder, you can lose animals
that way.
And so networking with otherpeople, which is the next thing
I did, I called up two otherpeople who'd worked with the
animal and said, Have you everdone this?
(46:20):
And how do you do it?
And so the next month I cameback with somebody who had put
transmitters on other jumpingmice and other species.
And we successfully starteddoing that work.
And now I have about 80 homeranges for jumping mice.
But at the beginning phases, youknow, the whether it's the
beginning of your thesis, thebeginning of a new project, it's
(46:40):
the scariest part, you know,because you don't know what
you're doing yet.
There's so much to learn.
Um, so giving yourself a littlegrace and making sure you're
talking to other people,learning what you can, learning
about cultures, whatever itmight be.
You know, just forgive yourselfif you have failures.
We're all going to havefailures, and that's how we
learn.
SPEAKER_00 (46:59):
Well, Carol, Winnie, John, thank you three so much
for joining us today and fortaking us back and showing us
some history, telling us yourstory.
We just really appreciateeverything that you've
contributed to the professionand to our society.
So thank you so much for joiningus today.
SPEAKER_04 (47:15):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (47:17):
Thank you.
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