October 14, 2025 • 48 mins
A single moment at fifteen – an apology followed by a tragic loss – sent JJ Winston on a course that would reshape her life. We sit down with the award-winning author, licensed social worker, attorney, and post-degree magistrate to trace how one grief-forged decision became a lifelong mission: defend the voiceless, dismantle stigma, and turn hard-earned insight into fiction that heals.
Across a candid, story-rich conversation, JJ Winston explains how stigma keeps professionals whispering for help, why documentation can unlock treatment when denial closes doors, and what safe conflict looks like in families trying to rebuild trust. We unpack cultural barriers—especially within Black communities—where taking on a mental health label can feel like shouldering a second weight. JJ’s core message lands with clarity: behavioral health is health, and untreated stress will write itself into the body.
JJ also opens up about her family’s deep connection to sickle cell disease and the “invisible until it’s not” pain that mirrors mental illness. Then we widen the lens on human trafficking, coerced work in adult homes, and the fear that keeps survivors silent. These lived truths power her novel series – "The Anniversary," "The Commemoration," and "The Revelation".
If you care about mental health advocacy, client rights, sickle cell awareness, or smart fiction that changes minds, this conversation rings like a bell—clear, resonant, and impossible to ignore.
JJ Winston:
Out Of The Blue:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where
real people share real storiesof resilience, transformation,
and the human spirit risingthrough adversity.
I'm your host, Vernon West,joined by my daughter and
co-host, Jackie West, our socialmedia and marketing manager, a
professional musician, and aReiki healer.
(00:44):
Our guest today has spent herlife standing in the gap for
others.
Judy J.J.
Jackson Winston is anaward-winning author, licensed
social worker, and attorneywhose work has changed lives
both in and out of thecourtroom.
For nearly two decades sheserved as client rights officer
(01:05):
for the Alcohol, Drug, andMental Health Services Board,
making sure the most vulnerablein her community were heard,
protected, and treated withdignity.
She is the author of threenovels and a behavioral health
workbook, blending her deepprofessional expertise with the
art of storytelling to raiseawareness and spark change.
(01:27):
And as someone living withsickle cell disease, JJ has
turned her personal journey intoa mission, educating and
empowering communities to takecharge of their health.
Today, as a post-degreemagistrate, she continues to
lead with courage, compassion,and an unshakable belief that
behavioral health care is healthcare too.
(01:49):
This is going to be a powerfuland inspiring conversation.
JJ Winston, welcome to Out ofthe Blue the Podcast.
SPEAKER_04 (01:57):
Thank you, Vernon and Jackie for having me.
It's just an honor to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
It is our honor, our distinct pleasure and honor.
So, as we always begin our outof the blue episodes with at the
beginning, as close to thebeginning as we get.
But we'll go back to that firstevent, maybe that sparked your
life journey, you know, thething that maybe happened out of
(02:24):
the blue that would have um beenthe thing that changed you
fundamentally in a sense thatyour whole world just kind of
focused on that point.
So let's start with yourquestion.
The question is there, it is.
What is the answer?
SPEAKER_04 (02:39):
Here's the answer, Vernon.
Okay.
When I was 15, um, I was in highschool, and it was a peer that I
uh went to school with.
The two of us had a really badargument.
But previous to this argument, Iwanted to be a computer
engineer.
Um, I'm a little bit older, I'mnot as young as I might
(03:02):
hopefully look.
But we knew when I was a youngperson that computers they
weren't 100% there yet, but theywere coming.
So I wanted to, you know, workin that field.
And that was my goal.
But then I had this argumentwith this peer that I'm telling
you about, and it was a reallybad argument.
(03:26):
We weren't the best of friendsanyway, so we didn't speak for
like four months.
She came to me and apologizedand told me she was sorry for
our argument and asked me, couldwe be friends?
And I told her yes.
And the very next day shecommitted suicide.
And this whole event really,really fundamentally changed me.
(03:50):
Um, I no longer wanted to be acomputer engineer.
I decided I was going todedicate my life to children and
to ensuring that no young peoplefelt like she must have
obviously felt to take her ownlife.
And I was just so appalled.
(04:10):
Like we, you know, we had peoplecome in, like the social workers
and therapists and counselors,and they explained to us that
she had already made thisdecision.
We learned this because she hadstarted giving away all of her
items and her belongings andmaking amends with people she
had an issue with.
And all of these were signs, butwe were young people and we
(04:33):
didn't know.
And so therefore, I decided todedicate my life to young people
and then to just people.
And so this whole event changedme.
SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
Boy, oh boy.
Wow, if that isn't something,man, that's very powerful.
But you know what I hear reallyresonating loud to me is that I
think it was like we don't knowwhat out of the blue is.
I'll just say we just I think weall kind of know, but but just
supposing we don't know whatwhat is it?
It's something really importantbecause it obviously wanted you
(05:04):
to not be a computer programmer.
It didn't want you to do that,and yes in a big way.
SPEAKER_04 (05:11):
Later, later on, um, as I started to, you know, my
education, my post-educationafter high school, I was given
like a test to say what kind ofjob would be you would be
strongest at given your personalcharacteristics and attributes.
And they said I would have madea horrible computer uh
(05:31):
programmer or slash engineerbecause they said I'm too
social, I'm way too outgoing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:38):
Well, you're gonna lose that talent.
SPEAKER_04 (05:40):
I need to be with people.
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
That's what the universe knew ahead of time.
They knew it already.
Boy oh boy, what a calling.
That's a calling and a half.
That really is loud.
Like uh, you did you did listen,though.
That's important.
I think that's the major lessonto take away for this is you
gift, you should listen to thoseevents, you know.
That's what you did clearly.
I think you did.
SPEAKER_04 (06:02):
You know what?
And it's just so um profound forme because this person was not
like my best friend.
Me not speaking to her for fourmonths mattered not to me.
I got that when it happened.
You know what I'm saying?
Sure.
It was just so profound that shecame and apologized, and then
she did that the next day.
And what I was gonna say earlieris what was even more profound
(06:24):
for me is that she used afirearm.
That's something that youngladies almost never use firearms
when they do commit suicide.
So to me, that said that thiswas really final for her.
And at 15, you just want to sayto yourself, what could possibly
be going on in somebody's lifethat they would determine that
(06:45):
they didn't want to be hereanymore?
And as I started to go throughmy education, because I do have
a bachelor's degree and amaster's degree in social work,
and I'm a licensed independentsocial worker with supervisory
designation.
As I started to go through myeducation and get into my
career, I realized a lot ofpeople have things going on in
(07:07):
their life.
And you don't know what's goingon in somebody's life, you only
know what's going on in yourlife.
So, therefore, what I'm hopingis that when people read my
books, that not only do they umlearn something, but that they
also see how important it is togive people forgiveness as and
also grace because you don'tknow when you might need some
(07:27):
forgiveness.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
Right, right.
That's such a heavy, heavy, it'sheavy, heavy lesson.
That's a wonderful lesson.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
When she apologized to you, did you did you hesitate
at all to forgive her or or ordid what kind of thoughts did
you have in that moment?
SPEAKER_04 (07:45):
No, I didn't hesitate.
I just, you know, I was shockedthat after all this time, she
just out the clear blue, out ofthe blue, out of the blue, and
just came up to me andapologized.
That's something, you know, butit's still it's just that, you
know, I was just so distraughtover this.
You know, I really took thisreally bad.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:07):
And it was because of the reasons that I just told
you.
It's like, you know, you'relooking at yourself, you know, I
was 15.
She was 15.
Like my life, you know, everykid has problems.
It's our being a teenager.
And then you find out there's alot of things that sometimes are
happening with young people thatwe don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:23):
And we need to really be uh give our kids grace
and help them if we can.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Yeah, like really listen.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Yep, listening to those things that happen out of
the blue, too.
That's so key to this, hearingthose messages that come from
you know, out of the blue.
We don't know where that means.
I mean, I have ideas about whereit means, and I'm sure everybody
can have an idea about that, andwe're not talking about that.
But go on now.
So this journey starts you offwhen you after when after after
(08:56):
high school, what did what whatdid what did you do, what was
your next steps?
SPEAKER_04 (09:00):
Well, what I did was I um I worked uh first I went to
college, but while I was incollege, I always did all this
kind of volunteer work um withteenagers and young people.
And I was once somebody who wentstraight through school because
I knew that if I took a break, Iwould quit.
So I just went straight throughfor all of my degrees.
(09:24):
And um, I I just start, youknow, I finished my um my
bachelor's degree, and by thetime I was 23, I had my master's
degree and I went to CaseWestern Reserve University,
Mandel School.
Then I started working, and sofor years I actually did work
with young people with kids, andwhat I would do is is uh find
(09:44):
them foster homes and adoptivehomes, and that was a really
rewarding experience.
I helped a lot of children.
I have run into young peoplethat I gave got a home for when
they were kids, and of course,they're grown now, they're
adults, and I run into them andI have no idea who they are, but
(10:05):
they never forget me.
And sometimes it really, reallydoes make my day that people
have thanked me because youknow, because I found the right
home for them, they weresuccessful in their life.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
What a key key part to play in their life, you know,
that's huge.
SPEAKER_04 (10:23):
And also huge when you don't even know who they are
because they look so differentnow.
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
Then there's so many, and you must have done it
for hundreds of people.
SPEAKER_04 (10:30):
They have to remind you, you know, who they are.
And then after I did that, Iactually went over to the Adams
Board and I worked there for 19years.
But while I was working duringthe adoption of foster care, I
also was in law school.
So I went to law school atnight, and and then I just used
all of my talents and skills tobe a voice for people who have
(10:52):
um substance use disorders andmental health issues.
And we just kind of put it underone umbrella as um behavioral
health.
So I was the advocate.
And so I would investigate abuseand neglect in our licensed
facilities, um, and also rightsviolations, and also in our
adult care homes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
That that's a real concern sometimes, what happens
there, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (11:18):
It is.
It's these are independentlyowned facilities, and basically
the people who live there needto be in a position to take care
of themselves to the point thatthey can administer their own
self, I mean their medications.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (11:33):
But these people, they prepare their meals.
They, you know, they they havethey make sure they have a uh
breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack.
They're supposed to watch themtake their medicine.
And they just are supposed tobe, you know, supportive, right?
You know, give them you knowsupport.
But people are independentenough to be able to be in the
community.
But unfortunately, you know,people who have these types of
(11:56):
issues are sometimes victims,actually, more often than they
are the perpetrators, they'remore often victims.
I believe that.
Because people know that theyhave these issues and they use
that as a way to take advantageof them.
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
I I only have one experience uhwith uh something that reminds
me of this.
When I was in the hospital for astint, um I had uh during it was
during COVID, and a lot of thenurses were sick, so they had
replacements coming in, and thenight shift was a bunch of
(12:31):
replacements, and they were souh they were coming from adult
care facilities and they had noexperience in where I was.
And I noticed this really uhborderline abuse.
I mean, I don't want to get intospecifics, but I actually talked
to the head nurse about it andtold her they were doing this.
She explained to me they wereinexperienced and they were used
(12:53):
to dealing with Alzheimer'spatients.
And I said that wasn't thatreally wasn't a reassurance to
me.
That made me feel like, how arethey treating these Alzheimer's
patients?
You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_04 (13:02):
Yes, and that's also what I mean.
Like, you know, you have people,and I've worked with that plenty
of times too, with people whohave dementia or some other type
of memory loss disorder.
Right, and they can be beingabused and they don't remember
their being.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
They don't even know.
SPEAKER_04 (13:18):
Yeah, you know, and I remember once having to
investigate a home where theyweren't giving them the proper
staffing, the people who had ummemory loss issues.
And one person thought the otherperson was his spouse, and every
day was forcing her into sexualrelations.
And basically, you know, thenext day, neither one of them
(13:41):
would remember.
It was really, you know, andthose are the kind of things
where you need somebody to standup for you.
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Yeah, definitely.
You need some oversight.
SPEAKER_04 (13:50):
Absolutely.
And that was part of my job isto be that oversight.
Somebody had filed a complaint,and I went out and I spoke to
there, you know, there was likemaybe one or two residents who
did have some memory loss, butthey it wasn't to the point that
they couldn't remember.
And they were able tocorroborate, you know, what was
happening.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
So you you handled some um that is some sticky
situations in that.
SPEAKER_04 (14:15):
I have, and you know, one of the things that I
would do is I'd also would referpeople so that they could
receive the appropriate uhservices.
And oftentimes I would haveprofessionals who would call me
and they would whisper and theywould ask for help, but they
would be whispering because theywere fearful that their peers
(14:39):
might hear them.
And if their peers knew thatthey had this as an issue, they
were very, you know, fearfulthat they would lose their
employment, lose theirlivelihood, you know, lose the
things, and that people wouldactually think that they were
stupid.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_04 (14:58):
So trying to get people who have professional who
were professionals, trying tohelp them sometimes is really
difficult because of the stigmaattached to just having these
type of issues, and even withtreatment.
So, you know, that's where mycharacters were born.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
Characters for your novels, right?
SPEAKER_04 (15:17):
For my novels, absolutely, because when we
think of uh substance usedisorder or we think of mental
health, we often think of peoplewho are poor and marginalized.
And we don't think that, youknow, that we don't understand
that this is an issue that hitsall of us.
It has no color, it has no race,it has no religion, it has no
(15:40):
socioeconomic status.
But when you are rich and youhave a mental health issue,
people just say you'reeccentric.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Yeah, right, right, right.
That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:54):
And we go, he's just so eccentric, you know, he's
just different, you know, andthat's okay.
But if you are poor and you havethese issues, we go, that
person's crazy.
Somebody needs to help them,somebody needs to intervene.
And I just wanted to reallyexplore all of those things.
So that's how my characters wereborn.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
I I don't know, I don't know if I have a fully
formed thought, but um I thinkwhat I've been um hearing is
that it can be really difficultfor people at all to speak and
be heard.
And this is like just anoverarching theme in all of
(16:36):
humanity.
SPEAKER_04 (16:38):
I agree.
It is, and you know, we gottahelp each other stay on top of
this, you know, like in my umnovels, what I really also
wanted to explore, and I thinkthis is for everybody, is the
issues related to trauma.
Trauma, unresolved trauma willshow itself as mental health
(17:00):
over time.
And people don't realize that.
You know, we have things thathave happened to us, and then
there are things that aresecrets, family secrets.
It's not just your secret.
Like maybe you do want to unburyyourself, but it's not just you,
other people are involved too,and you have to be really
careful.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
Is that also what you would say what you might
call genetic trauma that likehas passed through years and
years of being born in the samefamily?
You know, two people.
SPEAKER_04 (17:34):
Right.
You know, I think that whathappens is, you know, we have so
much, like, you know, uh thingsthat we're dealing with.
And it's not something that justhappens to people who are poor
or middle class or rich, it'sjust the human experience, being
human is not easy.
You have to have phenomenallylow times sometimes so you can
appreciate the great times.
(17:57):
Uh we have high highs and lowlows in life.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
But do we have do we have enough support um or even
education around when we get toour low times?
SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
We don't.
But we're doing better.
What's happening now,particularly after COVID, is
people are starting toacknowledge and understand
mental health more.
They're starting to say, hey,you know, they're gonna be
honest.
We're being more honest than weused to be.
But even in some communities,that's still something people
are still afraid to do.
So one of the reasons why, youknow, I wanted to make my
(18:33):
characters are African Americanis because in in African
American communities, not all,not everybody, you know, when we
talk about this, you know, itdoesn't mean this is everybody,
but some people really believestrongly, you know, it's already
hard enough having, you know, anissue, you know, just being
African-American and peoplebeing racist to you and people
(18:53):
being rude to you anddisrespectful, you know, why
would I want to add somethingelse?
So now you want me to have allthose things and you want me to
have that label too.
And that's very difficult.
And we'll say, look, you know,you survive so many other
things, you should be able tosurvive this.
And it's just really bad advice.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
That's terrible advice.
SPEAKER_04 (19:13):
Right.
What we should do is if weunderstand how important our
minds and our mental well-beingis to the rest of our health.
If I'm so stressed out and I'mnot dealing with that, I will
also start to have physicalproblems.
I have high blood pressure.
I'll have, you know, otherissues that can put me at risk.
(19:34):
So what we need to do is to, youknow, first off, not be so
judgmental to each other andcreate safe spaces where people
feel like they can be able to behonest and say what's going on.
And also, when they're honest,we support them.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
It's all about love, really, when it comes right down
to it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
What makes an environment conducive for people
to be honest with each other?
SPEAKER_04 (19:59):
I think we need to encourage each other that we are
gonna listen to them.
And we need to also rememberthere's certain things that when
we get upset with each other,that we don't do to each other.
You know, if I'm talking to youand I tell you something about
me, don't get mad at me and thenthrow it up and use it as a
weapon against me.
Because if you do, that's notgonna make me want to come tell
(20:23):
you things about what's going onwith me.
We have to learn how to havedisagreements better.
Like nobody, if you get alongwith somebody all the time, it's
probably something wrong withyou.
That's just not even human.
SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
Yeah, that's kind of that's that would be called what
I would call a people pleaser,right?
Right, you know what?
SPEAKER_04 (20:43):
There's conflict is not necessarily something that's
bad.
We have to remember that, right?
Right.
Sometimes, you know, out ofconflict, you know, we grow.
We need that so that we cangrow.
If you're the same person at 60that you were at 20, shame on
you.
I get that.
Okay, that means you haven'tgrown.
(21:04):
We all should be evolving andgrowing, becoming better,
becoming more understanding.
That's what happens as you getolder.
The things that bothered you at20 don't bother you at 60.
SPEAKER_02 (21:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:17):
Because you've transcended that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Yeah, you've transcended those little things,
they seem they grow smaller inyour perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
What if you're a person who is really afraid of
conflict, and you have thoughtabout how in your childhood
there was a lot of volatilityaround you?
So you just kind of move throughlife like really being afraid of
(21:47):
conflict, even though you knowyou it'll it will help resolve
things, but you don'tnecessarily associate it with
safety, you associate it withdanger.
Like how how can someone who'safraid of conflict create more
of more safety around enteringinto that?
SPEAKER_04 (22:09):
I think that the best thing to do is to work with
someone, get yourself atherapist who will help you do
exercises to help you start togain some of that strength that
you need.
You know, I'm gonna tell youwhat I do see also.
I see people who grow up or toget older and they never conf,
they never confronted whateverit was that upset them.
(22:33):
And then the person who was thesource of anger passes away or
something before they have anopportunity to confront that.
And sometimes they have issues,real serious issues.
You know, what we always gottaremember is tomorrow's not
promised to any of us, so weshould be trying to live every
(22:53):
day like it could be our last,okay?
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel that.
SPEAKER_04 (22:58):
And you know, understand that, you know, there
could be things that you'reupset about when you were a kid,
you don't understand.
Yeah, it might be things thatpeople did that you saw as a
problem that when you got thefull story, you might see as a
blessing.
But some things you can't tellkids.
(23:21):
I got grown kids, all my kidsare grown, and now that they're
older, things that I like whenthey were younger, their
perception of perhaps a me,excuse me.
SPEAKER_03 (23:32):
Let's use me as an example, Jackie.
SPEAKER_04 (23:35):
Like maybe when I was when they were younger, they
thought I was mean or I wasstern, or and now that they're
older, they now have a fullunderstanding because things
that I couldn't tell them whenthey were young, I can now tell
them as adults.
And now they have anunderstanding and go, Oh my god,
you weren't actually mean.
(23:56):
Like you should have done that.
Like this is important, youshould have, you know, but they
don't know that because theywere kids and there are certain
things you can't tell a kid,right?
It's not appropriate.
SPEAKER_02 (24:06):
No, I think that's an that's great advice for every
parental children relationship,really.
Because um, I definitely myselfhave learned uh evolving in our
relationships with Jackie and myother children.
Definitely this is uh whathappens.
You you unearth things thathappened years ago, and you can
(24:26):
now explain them better why thatwas so.
And they get more, they have nowmore perspective as human
beings, you know.
That's wisdom.
You know, I I was thinking aboutit, it kept popping in my brain,
so I'm gonna say it.
I don't know if it's if it's ifit's not off uh I know the story
of a of a the other story of howa pearl is made.
It's pretty remarkable story howan oyster oh yeah, a pearl,
(24:48):
right?
SPEAKER_04 (24:48):
The pressure.
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
Well, an oyster gets an uh uh a piece of uh substance
or a grain of sand thatirritates them, it irritates
them, it pisses them off, right?
It angers them.
And so what do they do?
They form this this beautifulset shell around it, which is
basically the same thing theshell is made of, oyster shell,
(25:10):
right?
And then it comes out as a pearland doesn't bother them anymore,
and we use them as things ofbeauty in a way, make chains of
them.
So, I mean, I always think ofthat as like a good analogy for
stuff we go through.
Absolutely, you know, if we getthis thing hit that irritates
us, chances are we need to learnfrom it.
SPEAKER_04 (25:30):
Absolutely.
So I um I'm hoping people willpick up my story.
Um, I you know, really wanted toshed light on mental health, but
then in my second and thirdbooks, I wanted to add some new
themes.
SPEAKER_02 (25:45):
Well, toss all your books.
Let's let's hear about thebooks.
SPEAKER_04 (25:48):
Yeah, so my first book is called The Anniversary.
I'm gonna um put that.
Show it, show it.
Beautiful cover, yes.
As you can see, Jackie, maybeyou can't, because I don't think
you can see this one in front ofme, right under me.
But these are behind me are thepieces of art that my covers are
made from.
See, this is uh thecommemorations.
(26:10):
You can see that one behind me.
You've been admiring them, yeah.
Yeah, this is my second bookcover, and then my last book is
called The Revelation, and it'sa series, and it follows a
family here in Ohio, where Ilive.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
And um, and basically one of them they're
both professionals and they havea really nice life, but one of
them uncovers information abouthis past that basically causes
him to have um basically abreakdown and everything that
happens because of it, and itdeals with so many different
(26:49):
topics, and um like let's talkabout like the evolution that
this stuff, what prompted thatfirst book?
SPEAKER_04 (26:58):
You know, the first book actually was a short story,
and I gave it to a professionalwriter who read it and liked it
so much, he told me I shoulddevelop it into a novel.
SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
What made you write that story?
SPEAKER_04 (27:12):
You know, I I just wanted to basically, like I
said, I saw this commonality ofso many professionals calling
me, whispering, afraid, afraidthat if people knew what was
going on, that basically, youknow, they would be ostracized
by their community, by thepeople they work with, they
(27:33):
would lose everything.
And that does happen.
And some people really do needhelp.
Some people need help, and youknow what?
And I'm just gonna speakplainly, and sometimes people
don't like what I say.
I keep it like really honestthough.
We do have duties to our familymembers and friends.
I don't know your family, I knowmy family.
(27:53):
You know, I remember I workedwith the young man and he said,
you know, his family called me.
He was the only boy in thefamily.
And the people weren't fromOhio, they were from another
city, but they moved to Ohio.
And for whatever reason, thisman's childhood home had just
(28:13):
really um significance for him.
So they realized that he wassuffering with the mental health
issue.
They did get him, you know,treated, but he didn't want to
take the medicine.
So what they would do is theywould bribe him and they would
tell him if he took themedicine, they would give him so
much money every day.
But so, you know, that's whatthey did.
But basically, he really wasn'ttaking the medicine.
(28:35):
He was just tricking them intobelieving that he was, and then
he had money.
And so, long story short, hewent to the city that he came
from and went to the house thathe used to reside in and broke
in basically.
And these people came home, andhe's lucky because you know,
they're people who will kill youif they come home and you are in
(28:56):
their house, and it's legalself-defense.
The story is, yeah, it sure isbecause that's their that's
their castle, that's theirdwelling.
Yeah, right.
And so, but luckily, thesepeople were able to get this
young man.
You know, they got him out, theygot him help.
But the family was like, youknow, when they take him to the
hospital, you know, he's soconvincing.
(29:18):
And he would say to the doctors,you know, my family, they're
exaggerating, I didn't do thesethings.
And you know, the doctor doesn'tknow them, they don't know what
his baseline behavior is, theyjust don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
They don't know that.
SPEAKER_04 (29:30):
So I suggested to the family that they videotape
him when he's in this state, andyou know, he would tell them he
was Jesus.
So they bought him to to talkwith him, and he said, You know,
Miss Winston, they're justexaggerating.
This isn't true.
I never said I was Jesus, andthey pulled out the tape and
(29:51):
they played it where he clearlysaid he was Jesus.
I said, That is you, is it not?
You did just say you were Jesus.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
And what was his response?
SPEAKER_04 (30:02):
He dropped his head, which means you know that
something's wrong.
Sometimes, you know, you have tounderstand that it is difficult
for all of us.
That's what made me write thisbook.
It's difficult to tell peoplethat you're different.
Nobody wants to be different.
You want to be like everybodyelse, and particularly when
(30:22):
you're young.
And that's your first book.
It's called The Anniversary.
The Anniversary.
Right.
And I named it that becausepeople don't um realize that
there are anniversaries that arenot always good.
Let's use an example.
9-11.
Oh, yeah.
9-11 is a day that's theanniversary of the bombing of
(30:44):
our Twin Towers.
Or, you know, the taking down ofour twin towers.
A horrible day.
Right.
It sure was a horrible day.
It is actually mybrother-in-law's birthday.
And up until that day, it wasjust my brother-in-law's
birthday.
But then after that day, itbecame 9-11.
SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (31:02):
And it was an anniversary.
And I want people to understandthat all anniversaries are not
good.
And everybody has anniversariesthey're dealing with that
actually mark something bad thathappened.
The death of a loved one.
You know, there's certain thingsthat have happened that it's
just, you know, that day meanssomething to you.
It doesn't mean anything toanybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (31:24):
But it means something to you, which is
another reason.
SPEAKER_02 (31:27):
So it's a powerful, maybe that's a catalyst, a
powerful mover into your intoyour mind, in your soul.
SPEAKER_04 (31:34):
That's right.
And you know what?
You don't know if the peoplearound you are experiencing one
of those anniversaries.
So give people grace.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Right.
Give them some space.
Right.
Give them some space.
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
You don't know what's going on with people.
They don't just come out and belike, hey, today's an awful day.
Did you know that five yearsago, today, this happened?
Like, people just don't do that.
SPEAKER_03 (31:55):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (31:55):
But they may not be in a good mood.
They may not be themselves.
And I'm just saying that, youknow, I just want us to start
giving each other grace.
SPEAKER_03 (32:03):
Grace.
SPEAKER_04 (32:04):
And in my second book, The Revelation, I wanted
to introduce some other thingsbesides the mental health.
And one of them is sickle celldisease.
And I just want people to knowthat my daughter actually lives
with sickle cell disease.
When I was eight, my dad passedaway from it.
I also lost two aunts and anuncle to sickle cell disease.
(32:28):
And I also have, in addition tomy daughter, I have uh a niece,
a great nephew, and a greatniece all living with sickle
cell disease.
And a lot of people don't know alot about it.
And I wanted to use my um novelas a way to basically help to
raise awareness about it sopeople understand it more and
(32:50):
just so your audienceunderstands what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
I think that's great.
SPEAKER_04 (32:54):
It is um it is a defect in my daughter's red
blood cells.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (33:01):
And instead of being circular and soft, there's a
shape like a farm sickle.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (33:10):
Abnormally shaped, and they go through her veins
and her arteries, and it causesimmense pain.
My daughter looks the picture ofhealth, but sometimes she's very
ill.
And so I could see the parallelsbetween mental health and sickle
cell disease, and I wanted toinclude it because people with
mental health disease or defectsor issues, oftentimes you won't
(33:34):
know there's anything wrong withthem until something's wrong
with them.
They're fine until they're not.
And that's the same thing withmy daughter and her illness.
And then lastly, I wanted to uminterject and put um human
trafficking in my novels.
SPEAKER_02 (33:49):
Is that in revelation?
SPEAKER_04 (33:51):
That's in uh the commemoration and revelation.
And the revelation is all threethings.
But what I did is the first oneis is more focused on mental
health, but the second one ismental health, sickle cell, and
human trafficking, and the thirdone is mental health, sickle
cell, and human trafficking.
Why I wanted to include humantrafficking is because in my
(34:12):
state where I live, humantrafficking is big, is like
number fourth in the nation.
And people often think abouthuman trafficking, they often
think about uh sex.
And I want people to know thathuman trafficking is not just
sexual.
We have a lot of people who areforced into labor and they are
(34:34):
forced to work pretty much fornothing.
Um, and that's human traffickingtoo, is basically slavery.
So I want people to understandthat.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
Well, I think people would understand that that
indentured servitude almost.
That's kind of to, and then Ithink how what examples of it
did you encounter any of thosepeople with that?
SPEAKER_04 (34:56):
I did.
I had people who were brought tothis country who uh don't know
how to speak English, they'redependent on a relative or
family member or somebody fromwhere they're from.
And a lot of we have to rememberthat there in other countries,
there are people who are they'reafraid of the police.
Their police are not our police,right?
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (35:16):
We have to remember that there are places where the
police are corrupt, and sotherefore, the people are
fleeing that country because ofthe corruptness, but then
they're very afraid.
But I remember I had a uh clientthat had to make Chinese food
like 18 hours a day.
I also once worked with someonewho basically didn't have enough
(35:37):
money to reside in her grouphome or adult care facility.
So basically the owner used heras a slave, would make her do
all this work.
I mean, just outrageous work.
Oh wow, and that's a that'sillegal.
Of course, and we want people toknow about it.
So I um I've just been trying toum to use my novels as a vehicle
(35:59):
to raise awareness about a lotof different subjects, and to
also talk about the strength offamily and again forgiveness.
And um, in my novel, my pe my ummain characters lose a child and
also dealing with you knowgrief.
A lot of people are dealing withgrief, unresolved grief, and
(36:19):
that can also um manifest into amental health issue if it's
untreated and physical healtheventually, absolutely people
get sick because they're dealingwith just crushing grief, yeah.
And there are places that canhelp you.
Like I know I have somebody thatI know that lost their child, I
know lots of people, you know,but I know somebody who lost a
(36:41):
child due to a drug overdose.
Oh boy, and she was um tellingme she went to a support group
with other parents who also losttheir children from a drug
overdose, and that really helpedher.
SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
Absolutely, I can see that being so powerful.
Um, I can see this journey ofyours is uh kind of magnificent,
really, as it unfolded into yourum journey journey bringing you
to look to do an action.
Your life was in actual rubberhits in the ground.
You know, you were you wereactually boots down the ground,
(37:16):
you were helping people withyour skills, and that wonderful
skill of being in social beingable to talk to people.
Yeah, that's amazing.
And then you take that to evenfurther now, you're developing
it into becoming you know,having a voice in a in the
novelist world to put out that'sright, put out entertainment,
(37:36):
but it's educational.
It's absolutely which I don'tthink anybody who is a good
reader, most people who readdon't just read for
entertainment, they they want tohear something to learn at the
end by the end of the story.
I mean, if you even if you lookat Shakespeare, there's a moral
lesson in every play.
Absolutely.
So there's something to betaught.
So when you're teaching throughyour educ entertainment, I think
(37:59):
that's a very unbelievably highnoble calling.
You know, thank you.
You know, you have to have areal passion for helping to be
able to sit down at thattypewriter or computer these
days and put that stuff on toyou know, make it real, make it
something to read.
You know, there's a lot we knowthat writing is rewriting, so
(38:20):
you spend a lot of timerewriting.
SPEAKER_04 (38:22):
I sure did.
I have really serious editorswho don't play around and
they're um they really were onme, but believe it or not, uh
just a fun tidbit ofinformation.
I actually wrote all three of mynovels on a Samsung Galaxy
tablet.
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
Amazing.
Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_04 (38:43):
Because believe it or not, it just I cannot stand
being behind the computer fortoo long.
I do it all day.
SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
I actually end up writing on my phone more now
these days.
It's crazy.
Yes, and see that the for me,the phone is too small, it gets
small, it gets a littleaggravating, especially with my
fat fingers.
You know, I have fat fingers.
SPEAKER_04 (39:05):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (39:06):
I'm a bass player, uh, my fingers are strong and
meaty.
SPEAKER_04 (39:10):
Oh, yeah, I love the bass.
I love music.
And so, Jackie, you're amusician as well.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So, what do you play?
I play guitar and sing.
SPEAKER_04 (39:19):
Oh, wonderful! Girl, they wouldn't never let me sing,
you know that, right?
Hear my voice, right?
I'm serious, they never let mesing.
You know what would happen is,you know, we'd be singing, you
know, like for the choir, andthen everybody say stop.
And then they walk up to me andthey go, sing, and then I sing,
(39:39):
and then they go, okay, stop.
And then they go, you know what?
You have a really um loud voice.
You should be the MC.
I was always the MC.
And that when I was a kid, andthat just prepared me for what I
do now.
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
Yeah, that's great.
And and I would say, like,channel you, you're you're
definitely channeling your ideasthrough voicing.
SPEAKER_04 (40:03):
But they never say you can sing.
My daughter, she is she's notlike, of course, Bobby as good
as the two of you, but she'smusical, and she used to play
the baritone in the marketingband.
SPEAKER_02 (40:14):
I played the baritone, I love the baritone.
SPEAKER_04 (40:16):
Okay, and she loves that.
She got like the big award fromband and all that when she was
young.
But every I love music, I lovemusic, I love all kinds of
music, and I'd be you know,singing with the music, and she
says I sound like a dying whale.
I asked her, How does a dyingwhale sound?
She goes, like you, mom.
SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_04 (40:36):
Oh keep singing though, and I do because you
know what I tell her, I don'tsing for her, I sing for me.
Yes, sometimes you do thingsbecause you like to do it, not
because what other people think,and that's what I hope your
audience gets from that is thatyou know, do things for
yourself.
(40:56):
If other people don't like it,too bad, and don't let people
tell you you can't do it.
You know, if I hadn't believedin myself, I wouldn't have wrote
three novels.
unknown (41:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (41:05):
I used to tell people I'm writing a novel and
they would laugh because theydidn't believe me.
Because I can sometimes, youknow, I'm always making jokes
and I'm funny and stuff thatthey don't realize that's you
know, I got a serious side too.
And then when my novels weredone, they go, Oh my gosh, you
were for real.
SPEAKER_02 (41:21):
Yeah.
Well, I think it's powerful andinspiring.
You know, it's like it's to me,I'm telling you right now, I
feel like the bell ringing.
And why I say that is becausebells are one of the most
wonderful sound machines on theearth.
They think of how long they'veexisted, right?
Bells have around for a longtime.
And when I hear I hear a bell,and I've used it in music
(41:45):
sometimes, but it's always toexpress some joy.
Like at the end of the song, andyou ring a bell, like a real
sound of a bell.
I love it.
When I hear a bell, it resonateswith my whole body, I can feel
it right down to my toes.
And I think that what I loveabout bells, it reminds me,
first of all, joy, but also it'strue, truth.
(42:07):
Like when something is true, itrings like a bell.
SPEAKER_04 (42:10):
Oh, wow, that's true.
And it's search bells, because Ihear search bells all the time
around where I live at well.
SPEAKER_02 (42:16):
You know, and think about it, right?
The one what the what what's theguy?
The hunchback was always ringingthe bell, right?
Right.
Well, he get he got the girl.
And he did.
So something to that bell, butum, what I love about this is
though, JJ, you're like a bell,and you're ringing.
Thank you.
And it's very true, authentic,beautiful stuff.
(42:38):
And I can't wait to share thiswith uh our audience.
And of course, we're gonnainclude links to you, get it so
people can get your books.
SPEAKER_04 (42:46):
I hope so.
SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
We have we've had a few um novelists on writers
before, and I for I know thatfor a fact that people have used
them for book clubs.
SPEAKER_04 (42:57):
I hope they use my books for a book club, but
they've been um I'm hoping thatpeople will go and check me out,
look at my Goodreads reviews.
I got lots of them.
Um, people, my books areresonating with people.
I'm just trying to make surethat um my messages get out
there because I feel like thisis my legacy, you know.
(43:18):
When you go, you still have somewords here that we you know
express what I believe.
It's fiction, but I tell peoplethis fiction is is really
mirrors life, really.
SPEAKER_02 (43:29):
Oh, of course.
SPEAKER_04 (43:30):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Like parables, you tell real truth with with with
fiction.
SPEAKER_04 (43:35):
Absolutely, and we can also, I want people to be
educated, but also entertained.
Nobody wants to read, you know.
I'm I'm gonna tell you, I'vetaught, nobody wants to be
lectured, people wanna, youknow, get the information, you
know, and also you know, get agood story too.
So that's what I try to do forpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Um, a good story allows people to just be in each
other's shoes and see fromdifferent perspectives.
SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
You know, that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_04 (44:02):
And people say that they always tell me I get a lot
of feedback about my novel.
I just do want to say this, itis heavy, yeah.
Until it's not like you know,this is up, this is what people
need to understand.
You don't know what people aregoing through, they don't
usually come and share.
If you say to somebody, how areyou?
and they go, Let me tell you, myleg hurts, my head hurts, this
(44:27):
hurts that people run from you.
They go.
SPEAKER_02 (44:30):
They tune right out.
They don't want to hear no, youknow what they go.
SPEAKER_03 (44:33):
I asked you how you were out of courtesy.
I really didn't want you to tellme all that.
SPEAKER_02 (44:39):
No, right, they just want to hear fine, fine, thank
you, and you this pretty muchyou know they don't really want
the answer to that.
SPEAKER_04 (44:48):
We teach our kids when somebody says, How are you?
the appropriate response isfine.
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
You right, that's it.
I've kind of made such like anexperiment out of that question
and answer system where Istarted actually answering it.
SPEAKER_04 (45:08):
And what happened, Jackie?
How many friends did you lose?
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Um, yeah, I mean, I I think I have bewildered some
people by actually answering.
Do they listen?
Sometimes, yes.
Most of the time.
SPEAKER_04 (45:25):
And then other times what do they do?
SPEAKER_00 (45:27):
Other times they they look for like a way to
continue a more positive type ofconversation, and so I kind of
turn it into a joke usually.
Okay, you know, to save it.
unknown (45:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:48):
This has been a great uh podcast with you,
definitely today, JJ.
I mean, I I can honestly saythat's one of the best ones
we've had, and I really love it.
Um, I don't really compare them,I shouldn't say that, but can't
help it.
Um, it really was invigoratingand inspiring, and I feel like a
lot of that bell ringing, Ireally feel the bells, you know,
(46:10):
really loud and clear.
SPEAKER_04 (46:11):
Thank you so much, Vernie.
It was a pleasure and an honorto be on your show.
And Jackie, it was wonderfulmeeting you.
Thank you guys for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (46:19):
Thank you so much for joining us, JJ.
And we'll I I'm gonna get yourbook.
So you know what?
SPEAKER_04 (46:24):
Just go to my website, and I'm just gonna say
that so your people will know.
They can just go towww.novelistjwinston.com.
Everything for me is novelist JJWinston.
I'm on Facebook, Instagram,pretty much all the different
social medias.
Am I good at it?
No, I guess I'm old.
(46:46):
But who cares?
SPEAKER_02 (46:49):
Yeah, now that now that we've got some people
listening, go to those places,go find look up JJ Winston,
novelist JJ Winston.
There'll be a link at the end ofthe episode, but you know now
from hearing it verbally, so goahead.
If you're in your car, write itdown while you're driving.
No, no, no, don't do that.
But um, I'm sure you candownload the episode and hear it
(47:10):
back later.
So thank you so much for joiningus, JJ.
It's been a real pleasure, and Iloved meeting you.
And um, thanks so much forsharing your wonderful story
with us.
It's been like a bell ringing.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (47:34):
Out of the Blue, the Podcast, hosted by me, Vernon
West, co-hosted by JacquelineWest, edited by Joe Gallo.
Music and logo by Vernon WestIII.
Have an out-of-the-blue story ofyour own you'd like to share?
Reach us at info at out of theblue-thepodcast.org.
(47:57):
Subscribe to Out of the Blue onApple Podcasts, Spotify, or
wherever you get your podcasts.
And on our website, out of theblue hyphen the podcast.org.
You can also check us out onPatreon for exclusive content.
Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where
real people share real storiesof resilience, transformation,
and the human spirit risingthrough adversity.
I'm your host, Vernon West,joined by my daughter and
co-host, Jackie West, our socialmedia and marketing manager, a
professional musician, and aReiki healer.
(00:44):
Our guest today has spent herlife standing in the gap for
others.
Judy J.J.
Jackson Winston is anaward-winning author, licensed
social worker, and attorneywhose work has changed lives
both in and out of thecourtroom.
For nearly two decades sheserved as client rights officer
(01:05):
for the Alcohol, Drug, andMental Health Services Board,
making sure the most vulnerablein her community were heard,
protected, and treated withdignity.
She is the author of threenovels and a behavioral health
workbook, blending her deepprofessional expertise with the
art of storytelling to raiseawareness and spark change.
(01:27):
And as someone living withsickle cell disease, JJ has
turned her personal journey intoa mission, educating and
empowering communities to takecharge of their health.
Today, as a post-degreemagistrate, she continues to
lead with courage, compassion,and an unshakable belief that
behavioral health care is healthcare too.
(01:49):
This is going to be a powerfuland inspiring conversation.
JJ Winston, welcome to Out ofthe Blue the Podcast.
SPEAKER_04 (01:57):
Thank you, Vernon and Jackie for having me.
It's just an honor to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
It is our honor, our distinct pleasure and honor.
So, as we always begin our outof the blue episodes with at the
beginning, as close to thebeginning as we get.
But we'll go back to that firstevent, maybe that sparked your
life journey, you know, thething that maybe happened out of
(02:24):
the blue that would have um beenthe thing that changed you
fundamentally in a sense thatyour whole world just kind of
focused on that point.
So let's start with yourquestion.
The question is there, it is.
What is the answer?
SPEAKER_04 (02:39):
Here's the answer, Vernon.
Okay.
When I was 15, um, I was in highschool, and it was a peer that I
uh went to school with.
The two of us had a really badargument.
But previous to this argument, Iwanted to be a computer
engineer.
Um, I'm a little bit older, I'mnot as young as I might
(03:02):
hopefully look.
But we knew when I was a youngperson that computers they
weren't 100% there yet, but theywere coming.
So I wanted to, you know, workin that field.
And that was my goal.
But then I had this argumentwith this peer that I'm telling
you about, and it was a reallybad argument.
(03:26):
We weren't the best of friendsanyway, so we didn't speak for
like four months.
She came to me and apologizedand told me she was sorry for
our argument and asked me, couldwe be friends?
And I told her yes.
And the very next day shecommitted suicide.
And this whole event really,really fundamentally changed me.
(03:50):
Um, I no longer wanted to be acomputer engineer.
I decided I was going todedicate my life to children and
to ensuring that no young peoplefelt like she must have
obviously felt to take her ownlife.
And I was just so appalled.
(04:10):
Like we, you know, we had peoplecome in, like the social workers
and therapists and counselors,and they explained to us that
she had already made thisdecision.
We learned this because she hadstarted giving away all of her
items and her belongings andmaking amends with people she
had an issue with.
And all of these were signs, butwe were young people and we
(04:33):
didn't know.
And so therefore, I decided todedicate my life to young people
and then to just people.
And so this whole event changedme.
SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
Boy, oh boy.
Wow, if that isn't something,man, that's very powerful.
But you know what I hear reallyresonating loud to me is that I
think it was like we don't knowwhat out of the blue is.
I'll just say we just I think weall kind of know, but but just
supposing we don't know whatwhat is it?
It's something really importantbecause it obviously wanted you
(05:04):
to not be a computer programmer.
It didn't want you to do that,and yes in a big way.
SPEAKER_04 (05:11):
Later, later on, um, as I started to, you know, my
education, my post-educationafter high school, I was given
like a test to say what kind ofjob would be you would be
strongest at given your personalcharacteristics and attributes.
And they said I would have madea horrible computer uh
(05:31):
programmer or slash engineerbecause they said I'm too
social, I'm way too outgoing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:38):
Well, you're gonna lose that talent.
SPEAKER_04 (05:40):
I need to be with people.
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
That's what the universe knew ahead of time.
They knew it already.
Boy oh boy, what a calling.
That's a calling and a half.
That really is loud.
Like uh, you did you did listen,though.
That's important.
I think that's the major lessonto take away for this is you
gift, you should listen to thoseevents, you know.
That's what you did clearly.
I think you did.
SPEAKER_04 (06:02):
You know what?
And it's just so um profound forme because this person was not
like my best friend.
Me not speaking to her for fourmonths mattered not to me.
I got that when it happened.
You know what I'm saying?
Sure.
It was just so profound that shecame and apologized, and then
she did that the next day.
And what I was gonna say earlieris what was even more profound
(06:24):
for me is that she used afirearm.
That's something that youngladies almost never use firearms
when they do commit suicide.
So to me, that said that thiswas really final for her.
And at 15, you just want to sayto yourself, what could possibly
be going on in somebody's lifethat they would determine that
(06:45):
they didn't want to be hereanymore?
And as I started to go throughmy education, because I do have
a bachelor's degree and amaster's degree in social work,
and I'm a licensed independentsocial worker with supervisory
designation.
As I started to go through myeducation and get into my
career, I realized a lot ofpeople have things going on in
(07:07):
their life.
And you don't know what's goingon in somebody's life, you only
know what's going on in yourlife.
So, therefore, what I'm hopingis that when people read my
books, that not only do they umlearn something, but that they
also see how important it is togive people forgiveness as and
also grace because you don'tknow when you might need some
(07:27):
forgiveness.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
Right, right.
That's such a heavy, heavy, it'sheavy, heavy lesson.
That's a wonderful lesson.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
When she apologized to you, did you did you hesitate
at all to forgive her or or ordid what kind of thoughts did
you have in that moment?
SPEAKER_04 (07:45):
No, I didn't hesitate.
I just, you know, I was shockedthat after all this time, she
just out the clear blue, out ofthe blue, out of the blue, and
just came up to me andapologized.
That's something, you know, butit's still it's just that, you
know, I was just so distraughtover this.
You know, I really took thisreally bad.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:07):
And it was because of the reasons that I just told
you.
It's like, you know, you'relooking at yourself, you know, I
was 15.
She was 15.
Like my life, you know, everykid has problems.
It's our being a teenager.
And then you find out there's alot of things that sometimes are
happening with young people thatwe don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:23):
And we need to really be uh give our kids grace
and help them if we can.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Yeah, like really listen.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Yep, listening to those things that happen out of
the blue, too.
That's so key to this, hearingthose messages that come from
you know, out of the blue.
We don't know where that means.
I mean, I have ideas about whereit means, and I'm sure everybody
can have an idea about that, andwe're not talking about that.
But go on now.
So this journey starts you offwhen you after when after after
(08:56):
high school, what did what whatdid what did you do, what was
your next steps?
SPEAKER_04 (09:00):
Well, what I did was I um I worked uh first I went to
college, but while I was incollege, I always did all this
kind of volunteer work um withteenagers and young people.
And I was once somebody who wentstraight through school because
I knew that if I took a break, Iwould quit.
So I just went straight throughfor all of my degrees.
(09:24):
And um, I I just start, youknow, I finished my um my
bachelor's degree, and by thetime I was 23, I had my master's
degree and I went to CaseWestern Reserve University,
Mandel School.
Then I started working, and sofor years I actually did work
with young people with kids, andwhat I would do is is uh find
(09:44):
them foster homes and adoptivehomes, and that was a really
rewarding experience.
I helped a lot of children.
I have run into young peoplethat I gave got a home for when
they were kids, and of course,they're grown now, they're
adults, and I run into them andI have no idea who they are, but
(10:05):
they never forget me.
And sometimes it really, reallydoes make my day that people
have thanked me because youknow, because I found the right
home for them, they weresuccessful in their life.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
What a key key part to play in their life, you know,
that's huge.
SPEAKER_04 (10:23):
And also huge when you don't even know who they are
because they look so differentnow.
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
Then there's so many, and you must have done it
for hundreds of people.
SPEAKER_04 (10:30):
They have to remind you, you know, who they are.
And then after I did that, Iactually went over to the Adams
Board and I worked there for 19years.
But while I was working duringthe adoption of foster care, I
also was in law school.
So I went to law school atnight, and and then I just used
all of my talents and skills tobe a voice for people who have
(10:52):
um substance use disorders andmental health issues.
And we just kind of put it underone umbrella as um behavioral
health.
So I was the advocate.
And so I would investigate abuseand neglect in our licensed
facilities, um, and also rightsviolations, and also in our
adult care homes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
That that's a real concern sometimes, what happens
there, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (11:18):
It is.
It's these are independentlyowned facilities, and basically
the people who live there needto be in a position to take care
of themselves to the point thatthey can administer their own
self, I mean their medications.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (11:33):
But these people, they prepare their meals.
They, you know, they they havethey make sure they have a uh
breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack.
They're supposed to watch themtake their medicine.
And they just are supposed tobe, you know, supportive, right?
You know, give them you knowsupport.
But people are independentenough to be able to be in the
community.
But unfortunately, you know,people who have these types of
(11:56):
issues are sometimes victims,actually, more often than they
are the perpetrators, they'remore often victims.
I believe that.
Because people know that theyhave these issues and they use
that as a way to take advantageof them.
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
I I only have one experience uhwith uh something that reminds
me of this.
When I was in the hospital for astint, um I had uh during it was
during COVID, and a lot of thenurses were sick, so they had
replacements coming in, and thenight shift was a bunch of
(12:31):
replacements, and they were souh they were coming from adult
care facilities and they had noexperience in where I was.
And I noticed this really uhborderline abuse.
I mean, I don't want to get intospecifics, but I actually talked
to the head nurse about it andtold her they were doing this.
She explained to me they wereinexperienced and they were used
(12:53):
to dealing with Alzheimer'spatients.
And I said that wasn't thatreally wasn't a reassurance to
me.
That made me feel like, how arethey treating these Alzheimer's
patients?
You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_04 (13:02):
Yes, and that's also what I mean.
Like, you know, you have people,and I've worked with that plenty
of times too, with people whohave dementia or some other type
of memory loss disorder.
Right, and they can be beingabused and they don't remember
their being.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
They don't even know.
SPEAKER_04 (13:18):
Yeah, you know, and I remember once having to
investigate a home where theyweren't giving them the proper
staffing, the people who had ummemory loss issues.
And one person thought the otherperson was his spouse, and every
day was forcing her into sexualrelations.
And basically, you know, thenext day, neither one of them
(13:41):
would remember.
It was really, you know, andthose are the kind of things
where you need somebody to standup for you.
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Yeah, definitely.
You need some oversight.
SPEAKER_04 (13:50):
Absolutely.
And that was part of my job isto be that oversight.
Somebody had filed a complaint,and I went out and I spoke to
there, you know, there was likemaybe one or two residents who
did have some memory loss, butthey it wasn't to the point that
they couldn't remember.
And they were able tocorroborate, you know, what was
happening.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
So you you handled some um that is some sticky
situations in that.
SPEAKER_04 (14:15):
I have, and you know, one of the things that I
would do is I'd also would referpeople so that they could
receive the appropriate uhservices.
And oftentimes I would haveprofessionals who would call me
and they would whisper and theywould ask for help, but they
would be whispering because theywere fearful that their peers
(14:39):
might hear them.
And if their peers knew thatthey had this as an issue, they
were very, you know, fearfulthat they would lose their
employment, lose theirlivelihood, you know, lose the
things, and that people wouldactually think that they were
stupid.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_04 (14:58):
So trying to get people who have professional who
were professionals, trying tohelp them sometimes is really
difficult because of the stigmaattached to just having these
type of issues, and even withtreatment.
So, you know, that's where mycharacters were born.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
Characters for your novels, right?
SPEAKER_04 (15:17):
For my novels, absolutely, because when we
think of uh substance usedisorder or we think of mental
health, we often think of peoplewho are poor and marginalized.
And we don't think that, youknow, that we don't understand
that this is an issue that hitsall of us.
It has no color, it has no race,it has no religion, it has no
(15:40):
socioeconomic status.
But when you are rich and youhave a mental health issue,
people just say you'reeccentric.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Yeah, right, right, right.
That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:54):
And we go, he's just so eccentric, you know, he's
just different, you know, andthat's okay.
But if you are poor and you havethese issues, we go, that
person's crazy.
Somebody needs to help them,somebody needs to intervene.
And I just wanted to reallyexplore all of those things.
So that's how my characters wereborn.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
I I don't know, I don't know if I have a fully
formed thought, but um I thinkwhat I've been um hearing is
that it can be really difficultfor people at all to speak and
be heard.
And this is like just anoverarching theme in all of
(16:36):
humanity.
SPEAKER_04 (16:38):
I agree.
It is, and you know, we gottahelp each other stay on top of
this, you know, like in my umnovels, what I really also
wanted to explore, and I thinkthis is for everybody, is the
issues related to trauma.
Trauma, unresolved trauma willshow itself as mental health
(17:00):
over time.
And people don't realize that.
You know, we have things thathave happened to us, and then
there are things that aresecrets, family secrets.
It's not just your secret.
Like maybe you do want to unburyyourself, but it's not just you,
other people are involved too,and you have to be really
careful.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
Is that also what you would say what you might
call genetic trauma that likehas passed through years and
years of being born in the samefamily?
You know, two people.
SPEAKER_04 (17:34):
Right.
You know, I think that whathappens is, you know, we have so
much, like, you know, uh thingsthat we're dealing with.
And it's not something that justhappens to people who are poor
or middle class or rich, it'sjust the human experience, being
human is not easy.
You have to have phenomenallylow times sometimes so you can
appreciate the great times.
(17:57):
Uh we have high highs and lowlows in life.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
But do we have do we have enough support um or even
education around when we get toour low times?
SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
We don't.
But we're doing better.
What's happening now,particularly after COVID, is
people are starting toacknowledge and understand
mental health more.
They're starting to say, hey,you know, they're gonna be
honest.
We're being more honest than weused to be.
But even in some communities,that's still something people
are still afraid to do.
So one of the reasons why, youknow, I wanted to make my
(18:33):
characters are African Americanis because in in African
American communities, not all,not everybody, you know, when we
talk about this, you know, itdoesn't mean this is everybody,
but some people really believestrongly, you know, it's already
hard enough having, you know, anissue, you know, just being
African-American and peoplebeing racist to you and people
(18:53):
being rude to you anddisrespectful, you know, why
would I want to add somethingelse?
So now you want me to have allthose things and you want me to
have that label too.
And that's very difficult.
And we'll say, look, you know,you survive so many other
things, you should be able tosurvive this.
And it's just really bad advice.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
That's terrible advice.
SPEAKER_04 (19:13):
Right.
What we should do is if weunderstand how important our
minds and our mental well-beingis to the rest of our health.
If I'm so stressed out and I'mnot dealing with that, I will
also start to have physicalproblems.
I have high blood pressure.
I'll have, you know, otherissues that can put me at risk.
(19:34):
So what we need to do is to, youknow, first off, not be so
judgmental to each other andcreate safe spaces where people
feel like they can be able to behonest and say what's going on.
And also, when they're honest,we support them.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
It's all about love, really, when it comes right down
to it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
What makes an environment conducive for people
to be honest with each other?
SPEAKER_04 (19:59):
I think we need to encourage each other that we are
gonna listen to them.
And we need to also rememberthere's certain things that when
we get upset with each other,that we don't do to each other.
You know, if I'm talking to youand I tell you something about
me, don't get mad at me and thenthrow it up and use it as a
weapon against me.
Because if you do, that's notgonna make me want to come tell
(20:23):
you things about what's going onwith me.
We have to learn how to havedisagreements better.
Like nobody, if you get alongwith somebody all the time, it's
probably something wrong withyou.
That's just not even human.
SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
Yeah, that's kind of that's that would be called what
I would call a people pleaser,right?
Right, you know what?
SPEAKER_04 (20:43):
There's conflict is not necessarily something that's
bad.
We have to remember that, right?
Right.
Sometimes, you know, out ofconflict, you know, we grow.
We need that so that we cangrow.
If you're the same person at 60that you were at 20, shame on
you.
I get that.
Okay, that means you haven'tgrown.
(21:04):
We all should be evolving andgrowing, becoming better,
becoming more understanding.
That's what happens as you getolder.
The things that bothered you at20 don't bother you at 60.
SPEAKER_02 (21:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:17):
Because you've transcended that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Yeah, you've transcended those little things,
they seem they grow smaller inyour perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
What if you're a person who is really afraid of
conflict, and you have thoughtabout how in your childhood
there was a lot of volatilityaround you?
So you just kind of move throughlife like really being afraid of
(21:47):
conflict, even though you knowyou it'll it will help resolve
things, but you don'tnecessarily associate it with
safety, you associate it withdanger.
Like how how can someone who'safraid of conflict create more
of more safety around enteringinto that?
SPEAKER_04 (22:09):
I think that the best thing to do is to work with
someone, get yourself atherapist who will help you do
exercises to help you start togain some of that strength that
you need.
You know, I'm gonna tell youwhat I do see also.
I see people who grow up or toget older and they never conf,
they never confronted whateverit was that upset them.
(22:33):
And then the person who was thesource of anger passes away or
something before they have anopportunity to confront that.
And sometimes they have issues,real serious issues.
You know, what we always gottaremember is tomorrow's not
promised to any of us, so weshould be trying to live every
(22:53):
day like it could be our last,okay?
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel that.
SPEAKER_04 (22:58):
And you know, understand that, you know, there
could be things that you'reupset about when you were a kid,
you don't understand.
Yeah, it might be things thatpeople did that you saw as a
problem that when you got thefull story, you might see as a
blessing.
But some things you can't tellkids.
(23:21):
I got grown kids, all my kidsare grown, and now that they're
older, things that I like whenthey were younger, their
perception of perhaps a me,excuse me.
SPEAKER_03 (23:32):
Let's use me as an example, Jackie.
SPEAKER_04 (23:35):
Like maybe when I was when they were younger, they
thought I was mean or I wasstern, or and now that they're
older, they now have a fullunderstanding because things
that I couldn't tell them whenthey were young, I can now tell
them as adults.
And now they have anunderstanding and go, Oh my god,
you weren't actually mean.
(23:56):
Like you should have done that.
Like this is important, youshould have, you know, but they
don't know that because theywere kids and there are certain
things you can't tell a kid,right?
It's not appropriate.
SPEAKER_02 (24:06):
No, I think that's an that's great advice for every
parental children relationship,really.
Because um, I definitely myselfhave learned uh evolving in our
relationships with Jackie and myother children.
Definitely this is uh whathappens.
You you unearth things thathappened years ago, and you can
(24:26):
now explain them better why thatwas so.
And they get more, they have nowmore perspective as human
beings, you know.
That's wisdom.
You know, I I was thinking aboutit, it kept popping in my brain,
so I'm gonna say it.
I don't know if it's if it's ifit's not off uh I know the story
of a of a the other story of howa pearl is made.
It's pretty remarkable story howan oyster oh yeah, a pearl,
(24:48):
right?
SPEAKER_04 (24:48):
The pressure.
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
Well, an oyster gets an uh uh a piece of uh substance
or a grain of sand thatirritates them, it irritates
them, it pisses them off, right?
It angers them.
And so what do they do?
They form this this beautifulset shell around it, which is
basically the same thing theshell is made of, oyster shell,
(25:10):
right?
And then it comes out as a pearland doesn't bother them anymore,
and we use them as things ofbeauty in a way, make chains of
them.
So, I mean, I always think ofthat as like a good analogy for
stuff we go through.
Absolutely, you know, if we getthis thing hit that irritates
us, chances are we need to learnfrom it.
SPEAKER_04 (25:30):
Absolutely.
So I um I'm hoping people willpick up my story.
Um, I you know, really wanted toshed light on mental health, but
then in my second and thirdbooks, I wanted to add some new
themes.
SPEAKER_02 (25:45):
Well, toss all your books.
Let's let's hear about thebooks.
SPEAKER_04 (25:48):
Yeah, so my first book is called The Anniversary.
I'm gonna um put that.
Show it, show it.
Beautiful cover, yes.
As you can see, Jackie, maybeyou can't, because I don't think
you can see this one in front ofme, right under me.
But these are behind me are thepieces of art that my covers are
made from.
See, this is uh thecommemorations.
(26:10):
You can see that one behind me.
You've been admiring them, yeah.
Yeah, this is my second bookcover, and then my last book is
called The Revelation, and it'sa series, and it follows a
family here in Ohio, where Ilive.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
And um, and basically one of them they're
both professionals and they havea really nice life, but one of
them uncovers information abouthis past that basically causes
him to have um basically abreakdown and everything that
happens because of it, and itdeals with so many different
(26:49):
topics, and um like let's talkabout like the evolution that
this stuff, what prompted thatfirst book?
SPEAKER_04 (26:58):
You know, the first book actually was a short story,
and I gave it to a professionalwriter who read it and liked it
so much, he told me I shoulddevelop it into a novel.
SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
What made you write that story?
SPEAKER_04 (27:12):
You know, I I just wanted to basically, like I
said, I saw this commonality ofso many professionals calling
me, whispering, afraid, afraidthat if people knew what was
going on, that basically, youknow, they would be ostracized
by their community, by thepeople they work with, they
(27:33):
would lose everything.
And that does happen.
And some people really do needhelp.
Some people need help, and youknow what?
And I'm just gonna speakplainly, and sometimes people
don't like what I say.
I keep it like really honestthough.
We do have duties to our familymembers and friends.
I don't know your family, I knowmy family.
(27:53):
You know, I remember I workedwith the young man and he said,
you know, his family called me.
He was the only boy in thefamily.
And the people weren't fromOhio, they were from another
city, but they moved to Ohio.
And for whatever reason, thisman's childhood home had just
(28:13):
really um significance for him.
So they realized that he wassuffering with the mental health
issue.
They did get him, you know,treated, but he didn't want to
take the medicine.
So what they would do is theywould bribe him and they would
tell him if he took themedicine, they would give him so
much money every day.
But so, you know, that's whatthey did.
But basically, he really wasn'ttaking the medicine.
(28:35):
He was just tricking them intobelieving that he was, and then
he had money.
And so, long story short, hewent to the city that he came
from and went to the house thathe used to reside in and broke
in basically.
And these people came home, andhe's lucky because you know,
they're people who will kill youif they come home and you are in
(28:56):
their house, and it's legalself-defense.
The story is, yeah, it sure isbecause that's their that's
their castle, that's theirdwelling.
Yeah, right.
And so, but luckily, thesepeople were able to get this
young man.
You know, they got him out, theygot him help.
But the family was like, youknow, when they take him to the
hospital, you know, he's soconvincing.
(29:18):
And he would say to the doctors,you know, my family, they're
exaggerating, I didn't do thesethings.
And you know, the doctor doesn'tknow them, they don't know what
his baseline behavior is, theyjust don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
They don't know that.
SPEAKER_04 (29:30):
So I suggested to the family that they videotape
him when he's in this state, andyou know, he would tell them he
was Jesus.
So they bought him to to talkwith him, and he said, You know,
Miss Winston, they're justexaggerating.
This isn't true.
I never said I was Jesus, andthey pulled out the tape and
(29:51):
they played it where he clearlysaid he was Jesus.
I said, That is you, is it not?
You did just say you were Jesus.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
And what was his response?
SPEAKER_04 (30:02):
He dropped his head, which means you know that
something's wrong.
Sometimes, you know, you have tounderstand that it is difficult
for all of us.
That's what made me write thisbook.
It's difficult to tell peoplethat you're different.
Nobody wants to be different.
You want to be like everybodyelse, and particularly when
(30:22):
you're young.
And that's your first book.
It's called The Anniversary.
The Anniversary.
Right.
And I named it that becausepeople don't um realize that
there are anniversaries that arenot always good.
Let's use an example.
9-11.
Oh, yeah.
9-11 is a day that's theanniversary of the bombing of
(30:44):
our Twin Towers.
Or, you know, the taking down ofour twin towers.
A horrible day.
Right.
It sure was a horrible day.
It is actually mybrother-in-law's birthday.
And up until that day, it wasjust my brother-in-law's
birthday.
But then after that day, itbecame 9-11.
SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (31:02):
And it was an anniversary.
And I want people to understandthat all anniversaries are not
good.
And everybody has anniversariesthey're dealing with that
actually mark something bad thathappened.
The death of a loved one.
You know, there's certain thingsthat have happened that it's
just, you know, that day meanssomething to you.
It doesn't mean anything toanybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (31:24):
But it means something to you, which is
another reason.
SPEAKER_02 (31:27):
So it's a powerful, maybe that's a catalyst, a
powerful mover into your intoyour mind, in your soul.
SPEAKER_04 (31:34):
That's right.
And you know what?
You don't know if the peoplearound you are experiencing one
of those anniversaries.
So give people grace.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Right.
Give them some space.
Right.
Give them some space.
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
You don't know what's going on with people.
They don't just come out and belike, hey, today's an awful day.
Did you know that five yearsago, today, this happened?
Like, people just don't do that.
SPEAKER_03 (31:55):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (31:55):
But they may not be in a good mood.
They may not be themselves.
And I'm just saying that, youknow, I just want us to start
giving each other grace.
SPEAKER_03 (32:03):
Grace.
SPEAKER_04 (32:04):
And in my second book, The Revelation, I wanted
to introduce some other thingsbesides the mental health.
And one of them is sickle celldisease.
And I just want people to knowthat my daughter actually lives
with sickle cell disease.
When I was eight, my dad passedaway from it.
I also lost two aunts and anuncle to sickle cell disease.
(32:28):
And I also have, in addition tomy daughter, I have uh a niece,
a great nephew, and a greatniece all living with sickle
cell disease.
And a lot of people don't know alot about it.
And I wanted to use my um novelas a way to basically help to
raise awareness about it sopeople understand it more and
(32:50):
just so your audienceunderstands what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
I think that's great.
SPEAKER_04 (32:54):
It is um it is a defect in my daughter's red
blood cells.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (33:01):
And instead of being circular and soft, there's a
shape like a farm sickle.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (33:10):
Abnormally shaped, and they go through her veins
and her arteries, and it causesimmense pain.
My daughter looks the picture ofhealth, but sometimes she's very
ill.
And so I could see the parallelsbetween mental health and sickle
cell disease, and I wanted toinclude it because people with
mental health disease or defectsor issues, oftentimes you won't
(33:34):
know there's anything wrong withthem until something's wrong
with them.
They're fine until they're not.
And that's the same thing withmy daughter and her illness.
And then lastly, I wanted to uminterject and put um human
trafficking in my novels.
SPEAKER_02 (33:49):
Is that in revelation?
SPEAKER_04 (33:51):
That's in uh the commemoration and revelation.
And the revelation is all threethings.
But what I did is the first oneis is more focused on mental
health, but the second one ismental health, sickle cell, and
human trafficking, and the thirdone is mental health, sickle
cell, and human trafficking.
Why I wanted to include humantrafficking is because in my
(34:12):
state where I live, humantrafficking is big, is like
number fourth in the nation.
And people often think abouthuman trafficking, they often
think about uh sex.
And I want people to know thathuman trafficking is not just
sexual.
We have a lot of people who areforced into labor and they are
(34:34):
forced to work pretty much fornothing.
Um, and that's human traffickingtoo, is basically slavery.
So I want people to understandthat.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
Well, I think people would understand that that
indentured servitude almost.
That's kind of to, and then Ithink how what examples of it
did you encounter any of thosepeople with that?
SPEAKER_04 (34:56):
I did.
I had people who were brought tothis country who uh don't know
how to speak English, they'redependent on a relative or
family member or somebody fromwhere they're from.
And a lot of we have to rememberthat there in other countries,
there are people who are they'reafraid of the police.
Their police are not our police,right?
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (35:16):
We have to remember that there are places where the
police are corrupt, and sotherefore, the people are
fleeing that country because ofthe corruptness, but then
they're very afraid.
But I remember I had a uh clientthat had to make Chinese food
like 18 hours a day.
I also once worked with someonewho basically didn't have enough
(35:37):
money to reside in her grouphome or adult care facility.
So basically the owner used heras a slave, would make her do
all this work.
I mean, just outrageous work.
Oh wow, and that's a that'sillegal.
Of course, and we want people toknow about it.
So I um I've just been trying toum to use my novels as a vehicle
(35:59):
to raise awareness about a lotof different subjects, and to
also talk about the strength offamily and again forgiveness.
And um, in my novel, my pe my ummain characters lose a child and
also dealing with you knowgrief.
A lot of people are dealing withgrief, unresolved grief, and
(36:19):
that can also um manifest into amental health issue if it's
untreated and physical healtheventually, absolutely people
get sick because they're dealingwith just crushing grief, yeah.
And there are places that canhelp you.
Like I know I have somebody thatI know that lost their child, I
know lots of people, you know,but I know somebody who lost a
(36:41):
child due to a drug overdose.
Oh boy, and she was um tellingme she went to a support group
with other parents who also losttheir children from a drug
overdose, and that really helpedher.
SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
Absolutely, I can see that being so powerful.
Um, I can see this journey ofyours is uh kind of magnificent,
really, as it unfolded into yourum journey journey bringing you
to look to do an action.
Your life was in actual rubberhits in the ground.
You know, you were you wereactually boots down the ground,
(37:16):
you were helping people withyour skills, and that wonderful
skill of being in social beingable to talk to people.
Yeah, that's amazing.
And then you take that to evenfurther now, you're developing
it into becoming you know,having a voice in a in the
novelist world to put out that'sright, put out entertainment,
(37:36):
but it's educational.
It's absolutely which I don'tthink anybody who is a good
reader, most people who readdon't just read for
entertainment, they they want tohear something to learn at the
end by the end of the story.
I mean, if you even if you lookat Shakespeare, there's a moral
lesson in every play.
Absolutely.
So there's something to betaught.
So when you're teaching throughyour educ entertainment, I think
(37:59):
that's a very unbelievably highnoble calling.
You know, thank you.
You know, you have to have areal passion for helping to be
able to sit down at thattypewriter or computer these
days and put that stuff on toyou know, make it real, make it
something to read.
You know, there's a lot we knowthat writing is rewriting, so
(38:20):
you spend a lot of timerewriting.
SPEAKER_04 (38:22):
I sure did.
I have really serious editorswho don't play around and
they're um they really were onme, but believe it or not, uh
just a fun tidbit ofinformation.
I actually wrote all three of mynovels on a Samsung Galaxy
tablet.
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
Amazing.
Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_04 (38:43):
Because believe it or not, it just I cannot stand
being behind the computer fortoo long.
I do it all day.
SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
I actually end up writing on my phone more now
these days.
It's crazy.
Yes, and see that the for me,the phone is too small, it gets
small, it gets a littleaggravating, especially with my
fat fingers.
You know, I have fat fingers.
SPEAKER_04 (39:05):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (39:06):
I'm a bass player, uh, my fingers are strong and
meaty.
SPEAKER_04 (39:10):
Oh, yeah, I love the bass.
I love music.
And so, Jackie, you're amusician as well.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So, what do you play?
I play guitar and sing.
SPEAKER_04 (39:19):
Oh, wonderful! Girl, they wouldn't never let me sing,
you know that, right?
Hear my voice, right?
I'm serious, they never let mesing.
You know what would happen is,you know, we'd be singing, you
know, like for the choir, andthen everybody say stop.
And then they walk up to me andthey go, sing, and then I sing,
(39:39):
and then they go, okay, stop.
And then they go, you know what?
You have a really um loud voice.
You should be the MC.
I was always the MC.
And that when I was a kid, andthat just prepared me for what I
do now.
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
Yeah, that's great.
And and I would say, like,channel you, you're you're
definitely channeling your ideasthrough voicing.
SPEAKER_04 (40:03):
But they never say you can sing.
My daughter, she is she's notlike, of course, Bobby as good
as the two of you, but she'smusical, and she used to play
the baritone in the marketingband.
SPEAKER_02 (40:14):
I played the baritone, I love the baritone.
SPEAKER_04 (40:16):
Okay, and she loves that.
She got like the big award fromband and all that when she was
young.
But every I love music, I lovemusic, I love all kinds of
music, and I'd be you know,singing with the music, and she
says I sound like a dying whale.
I asked her, How does a dyingwhale sound?
She goes, like you, mom.
SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_04 (40:36):
Oh keep singing though, and I do because you
know what I tell her, I don'tsing for her, I sing for me.
Yes, sometimes you do thingsbecause you like to do it, not
because what other people think,and that's what I hope your
audience gets from that is thatyou know, do things for
yourself.
(40:56):
If other people don't like it,too bad, and don't let people
tell you you can't do it.
You know, if I hadn't believedin myself, I wouldn't have wrote
three novels.
unknown (41:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (41:05):
I used to tell people I'm writing a novel and
they would laugh because theydidn't believe me.
Because I can sometimes, youknow, I'm always making jokes
and I'm funny and stuff thatthey don't realize that's you
know, I got a serious side too.
And then when my novels weredone, they go, Oh my gosh, you
were for real.
SPEAKER_02 (41:21):
Yeah.
Well, I think it's powerful andinspiring.
You know, it's like it's to me,I'm telling you right now, I
feel like the bell ringing.
And why I say that is becausebells are one of the most
wonderful sound machines on theearth.
They think of how long they'veexisted, right?
Bells have around for a longtime.
And when I hear I hear a bell,and I've used it in music
(41:45):
sometimes, but it's always toexpress some joy.
Like at the end of the song, andyou ring a bell, like a real
sound of a bell.
I love it.
When I hear a bell, it resonateswith my whole body, I can feel
it right down to my toes.
And I think that what I loveabout bells, it reminds me,
first of all, joy, but also it'strue, truth.
(42:07):
Like when something is true, itrings like a bell.
SPEAKER_04 (42:10):
Oh, wow, that's true.
And it's search bells, because Ihear search bells all the time
around where I live at well.
SPEAKER_02 (42:16):
You know, and think about it, right?
The one what the what what's theguy?
The hunchback was always ringingthe bell, right?
Right.
Well, he get he got the girl.
And he did.
So something to that bell, butum, what I love about this is
though, JJ, you're like a bell,and you're ringing.
Thank you.
And it's very true, authentic,beautiful stuff.
(42:38):
And I can't wait to share thiswith uh our audience.
And of course, we're gonnainclude links to you, get it so
people can get your books.
SPEAKER_04 (42:46):
I hope so.
SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
We have we've had a few um novelists on writers
before, and I for I know thatfor a fact that people have used
them for book clubs.
SPEAKER_04 (42:57):
I hope they use my books for a book club, but
they've been um I'm hoping thatpeople will go and check me out,
look at my Goodreads reviews.
I got lots of them.
Um, people, my books areresonating with people.
I'm just trying to make surethat um my messages get out
there because I feel like thisis my legacy, you know.
(43:18):
When you go, you still have somewords here that we you know
express what I believe.
It's fiction, but I tell peoplethis fiction is is really
mirrors life, really.
SPEAKER_02 (43:29):
Oh, of course.
SPEAKER_04 (43:30):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Like parables, you tell real truth with with with
fiction.
SPEAKER_04 (43:35):
Absolutely, and we can also, I want people to be
educated, but also entertained.
Nobody wants to read, you know.
I'm I'm gonna tell you, I'vetaught, nobody wants to be
lectured, people wanna, youknow, get the information, you
know, and also you know, get agood story too.
So that's what I try to do forpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Um, a good story allows people to just be in each
other's shoes and see fromdifferent perspectives.
SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
You know, that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_04 (44:02):
And people say that they always tell me I get a lot
of feedback about my novel.
I just do want to say this, itis heavy, yeah.
Until it's not like you know,this is up, this is what people
need to understand.
You don't know what people aregoing through, they don't
usually come and share.
If you say to somebody, how areyou?
and they go, Let me tell you, myleg hurts, my head hurts, this
(44:27):
hurts that people run from you.
They go.
SPEAKER_02 (44:30):
They tune right out.
They don't want to hear no, youknow what they go.
SPEAKER_03 (44:33):
I asked you how you were out of courtesy.
I really didn't want you to tellme all that.
SPEAKER_02 (44:39):
No, right, they just want to hear fine, fine, thank
you, and you this pretty muchyou know they don't really want
the answer to that.
SPEAKER_04 (44:48):
We teach our kids when somebody says, How are you?
the appropriate response isfine.
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
You right, that's it.
I've kind of made such like anexperiment out of that question
and answer system where Istarted actually answering it.
SPEAKER_04 (45:08):
And what happened, Jackie?
How many friends did you lose?
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Um, yeah, I mean, I I think I have bewildered some
people by actually answering.
Do they listen?
Sometimes, yes.
Most of the time.
SPEAKER_04 (45:25):
And then other times what do they do?
SPEAKER_00 (45:27):
Other times they they look for like a way to
continue a more positive type ofconversation, and so I kind of
turn it into a joke usually.
Okay, you know, to save it.
unknown (45:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:48):
This has been a great uh podcast with you,
definitely today, JJ.
I mean, I I can honestly saythat's one of the best ones
we've had, and I really love it.
Um, I don't really compare them,I shouldn't say that, but can't
help it.
Um, it really was invigoratingand inspiring, and I feel like a
lot of that bell ringing, Ireally feel the bells, you know,
(46:10):
really loud and clear.
SPEAKER_04 (46:11):
Thank you so much, Vernie.
It was a pleasure and an honorto be on your show.
And Jackie, it was wonderfulmeeting you.
Thank you guys for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (46:19):
Thank you so much for joining us, JJ.
And we'll I I'm gonna get yourbook.
So you know what?
SPEAKER_04 (46:24):
Just go to my website, and I'm just gonna say
that so your people will know.
They can just go towww.novelistjwinston.com.
Everything for me is novelist JJWinston.
I'm on Facebook, Instagram,pretty much all the different
social medias.
Am I good at it?
No, I guess I'm old.
(46:46):
But who cares?
SPEAKER_02 (46:49):
Yeah, now that now that we've got some people
listening, go to those places,go find look up JJ Winston,
novelist JJ Winston.
There'll be a link at the end ofthe episode, but you know now
from hearing it verbally, so goahead.
If you're in your car, write itdown while you're driving.
No, no, no, don't do that.
But um, I'm sure you candownload the episode and hear it
(47:10):
back later.
So thank you so much for joiningus, JJ.
It's been a real pleasure, and Iloved meeting you.
And um, thanks so much forsharing your wonderful story
with us.
It's been like a bell ringing.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (47:34):
Out of the Blue, the Podcast, hosted by me, Vernon
West, co-hosted by JacquelineWest, edited by Joe Gallo.
Music and logo by Vernon WestIII.
Have an out-of-the-blue story ofyour own you'd like to share?
Reach us at info at out of theblue-thepodcast.org.
(47:57):
Subscribe to Out of the Blue onApple Podcasts, Spotify, or
wherever you get your podcasts.
And on our website, out of theblue hyphen the podcast.org.
You can also check us out onPatreon for exclusive content.
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