May 27, 2025 • 57 mins
One ordinary Thursday in 2019, while preparing to teach a class, Kevin Carey – coordinator of creative writing at Salem State University and author of seven acclaimed books – suddenly experienced distorted vision and temporary blindness in one eye. What followed was a harrowing medical journey that nearly ended in tragedy—twice. Despite recognizing the seriousness of his symptoms, Kevin was almost sent home from two different hospitals without proper diagnosis. It was only due to his wife's persistent questioning about his lingering fever that doctors finally discovered a life-threatening bacterial blood infection that had sent fragments to his brain.
Kevin takes us through his treatment of a PICC line delivering antibiotics directly to his heart, and the profound gratitude he feels for surviving what many others don't. The permanent slight vision loss in his peripheral vision serves as a constant reminder of his brush with mortality.
But Kevin's story isn't just about survival—it's about transformation and creative resilience. With disarming honesty and humor, he shares how his journey as a writer has been marked by persistence through rejection and an openness to unexpected directions. After focusing on fiction writing for years, Kevin found his initial publishing success in poetry. His novel "Junior Miles and the Junkman," which tells the story of a disabled, bullied boy whose deceased father leaves him a junk sculpture that comes alive, took nine years to find a publisher.
Kevin's experiences illuminate the power of collaboration, intuition, and perseverance in both healing and creativity. Whether developing a movie from a playful conversation with a friend or co-creating poetry inspired by photography, his willingness to follow inspiration wherever it leads exemplifies the "out of the blue" moments that shape our lives most profoundly.
Join us for this powerful conversation about recognizing life's signposts, embracing unexpected opportunities, and finding deeper meaning through our most challenging experiences.
For more from Kevin Carey: https://kevincareywriter.com/
Order "Junior Miles and the Junkman": https://regal-house-publishing.mybigcommerce.com/junior-miles-and-the-junkman/
Out Of The Blue:
For more: outoftheblue-thepodcast.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome to Out of the Blue the podcast, a platform
dedicated to celebratinginspirational stories of people
from all walks of life,overcoming life-changing
experiences, who have foundtheir way forward.
I'm your host, vernon West, andmy co-host for today's episode
is my daughter, jackie West, who, along with being our social
(00:45):
media and marketing manager, isa professional musician and
Reiki healer.
And I also want to thank you,our listeners, for joining us
today, for giving us yourprecious time and attention,
because we know just howvaluable that is, and please
remember to smash that likebutton and hit that subscribe
(01:05):
button, because everything helpsto get the word out there.
In today's episode, we'rethrilled to welcome Kevin Carey,
a native of Revere,massachusetts, now residing in
Cape Ann.
Kevin is the coordinator ofcreative writing at Salem State
University and the author ofseven acclaimed books.
(01:26):
He's here to share theincredible story of a
life-altering event thatunexpectedly landed him in the
hospital, fighting for survival.
Kevin will take us through hisjourney of recovery and how he
transformed a traumaticexperience into a story of
resilience and triumph into astory of resilience and triumph,
(01:47):
thriving as both anaward-winning author and an
esteemed educator.
Hi, kevin, and welcome to Outof the Blue the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Hello, vernon and Jackie, it's nice to be here.
Thank you, good to have youGood to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You know, kevin, I know we've had a bit of a talk,
we know a pretty good idea, butI really have a lot to learn
from this.
So tell us to start off withwhat really that event that
brings you to Out of the Blue,the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, it was a Thursday evening, fall of 2019.
I was sitting at my desk in myoffice getting ready to teach an
evening class I think it was aplaywriting or scriptwriting
class and I went to stand up andthe whole room resembled an old
(02:35):
Zenith television set all wavylines and the whole picture in
front of me.
I lost sight in one eyetemporarily and temporarily, and
so I knew something was goingon.
And I remember I walkedupstairs to the classroom and I
said guys, I think I'm having astroke.
Can someone you know call 911?
And so they came and I gotrushed to Salem Hospital and I
(03:03):
had managed to call my wife, andmy wife and daughter met the
ambulance there, and so they dida scan and they thought they
saw something in my brain, ablockage in my brain.
So by the time they figuredthat out, the ER doctor said to
me look, there's a medication toclear that blockage.
(03:24):
The problem with the medicationis you need to take it an hour
from the onset of the incident,and so you have about five
minutes to make up your mind.
And he said oh yeah, by the way, a certain percent of percent
of people get brain bleeds fromthis medicine.
Yikes.
(03:45):
So my wife's a former nurse andshe's calling colleagues of her
and trying to figure out shouldhe take this.
Should he?
You know?
And a long story short, thedoctor came back into the ER and
said I asked him.
I said what would you do?
Or my wife asked him.
He said if you are my father, Itell you not to take it.
(04:05):
So we didn't take it andanyways it didn't.
I still had all this funkyvision going on.
It's kind of like lookingthrough a cheese board or a
grate with a bunch of holes andmy sight was coming back in the
eye that it had gone out of alittle bit.
So they kept me overnight andthey had called a neurologist.
(04:31):
There was one on call but therewas nobody in the hospital.
And then one other phone callthey made, somebody told them to
send me home and to come see anophthalmologist in the morning,
that they knew what this was.
So neither of those thingssounded very plausible to my
(04:51):
wife.
Thank goodness she was there.
And the next day I was moved toa hospital in Boston and they
couldn't find out what it was.
So I was in there two days andthey were sending me home.
And then my wife asked thenurse why does he still have a
(05:13):
temperature again?
And that's when they decidedwe'll do a blood culture.
And they did the blood cultureand they found that I had a
bacterial blood infection andwhat had happened was a piece of
(05:34):
that bacteria flew off in mybloodstream, went through my
heart and lodged in my brain andthat's what caused the stroke
incident.
Twice two hospitals weresending me home, right, and they
didn't know what it was.
And if it wasn't for my wifespeaking up for me, I probably
(05:55):
would have went home and eitherbled out or gone into sepsis or
you know whatever.
And you know it's amazing.
Once they knew what it was, Ihad teams of doctors coming in.
Really, the care was great.
I had neurologists, infectiousdisease MDs, and you know like
they knew how to treat this.
(06:16):
Now that they knew what it wasand the treatment was a PICC
line into my vein that went tomy heart and a box of
antibiotics that I carriedaround like a shoulder bag for
eight weeks.
You know kind of kicked thecrap out of me, but it did what
it was supposed to do.
It got rid of the bacteria inmy blood and you know it felt
(06:42):
all so surreal, really, until itwas almost over.
And then I started thinking backon it and I kept running into
people and I told them whathappened and they'd say oh yeah,
my cousin died of that, or myfriend down the block died from
that.
And when you mention bacterialblood infection, the outcomes
(07:02):
are not good for a lot of people, this is true.
So I think if I had really gonehome either of those times, I
think I would have been introuble, you know.
Oh yeah.
So I credit my wife for savingmy life, and you know which
she's probably done in more waysthan one over the years.
(07:22):
Well, I can agree with that.
You know, I was a prettyhealthy guy.
I mean, I had been a bigdrinker years ago and I'd
stopped drinking for many years.
So, you know, once thathappened, I became pretty
healthy.
You know, I really wasn't sickthat often.
I kind of bounced through lifeand did most of the things that
(07:46):
I wanted to do and then bang,you know, this thing just kind
of falls in my lap one nightsitting at my desk, and nobody
knows how I got it.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
They don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
They had theories.
They wanted to take mygallbladder out and I said, well
, was it from the gallbladder?
And they were like we don'tknow.
But you know it could be andI'm like I don't think I want to
lose body parts if I don't haveto.
You know there was.
We have a theory.
We had been down the Cape acouple of weeks before that.
(08:20):
I think maybe let me back upabout three years before that I
had gotten this thing called anocular migraine.
It's like an aura in your eye.
It lasts about 20 minutes andthen goes away.
And I had had a couple of thoseover the years and I think I
mostly associated them withdehydration if I worked out too
(08:41):
much and I didn't drink enoughwater.
But then after we got home fromthe Cape, I had been swimming
in the water.
It was after a rainstorm, itwas really warm and I had a hole
in my eardrum and my earplugfell out.
And as I was swimming I lookedand I saw a dead fish in the
water.
So then I got home and then Ihad like four of these ocular
(09:05):
migraines within five days.
So our theory is I don't knowif it's true or not is that I
must have got some bacteria fromthe ocean that went in my ear
and into my bloodstream, but thedoctors didn't agree with that.
They said they didn't see thatas being the source.
Didn't agree with that, theysaid they didn't see that as
(09:26):
being the source.
Long story to say, I havereally no idea how I got this to
begin with and where it camefrom, what the onset was, how it
got into my system.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
It was literally out of the blue on its fortune.
Literally out of the blue, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Meaning you could say the ocean, like in what yard
theory that would have been outof the blue.
Yeah, yeah, meaning the meaning, the everything you could say
the ocean, like in what yardtheory that would have been out
of the blue too, the ocean.
That would have been definitelyspecifically out of the blue
yeah, right really specificallylike from the blue yeah, but I'm
the blue, yeah, no or, or thesky I mean yeah, yeah yeah, yeah
, it's interesting to hear whatyour intuition about where this
(10:07):
came from goes.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Well, I think the reason I go there is because it
makes me afraid it could happenagain if I don't know what
caused it.
I agree with that.
So, you know, maybe I'm doingsomething right now that caused
it and I don't know.
So that's, you know.
It's crossing the line betweenfear and paranoia, I guess it's
(10:33):
just.
And you know, the thing I thinkthat's the scariest about it is
it's a loss of control, right?
It's something that's affectingthe way you see.
You know, I still have a littlesight loss in my peripheral
vision on that side, and the waythey described it to me was is
(10:59):
that I actually did lose alittle sight, the way the brain
works with my eyes and the brainis making up for what should be
there, and so if I concentrateon it, it's a little kind of
fuzzy, like a camera out offocus, like a little pixelating
(11:21):
video image, and I don't noticeit too much anymore.
Some lights.
If I'm with my head downreading and there's a light over
in that corner, it sometimesdraws attention to it, but I've
just become accustomed to it andit kind of I can make myself
focus on it and it still freaksme out a little, but most of the
(11:42):
time I just forget about it,you know.
So you know of the time I justforget about it, you know.
So, you know.
The damage, thankfully, has beenminimal.
I don't know what it's done tomy brain.
My brain functioned in strangeways before this, so it's hard
to tell what has changed.
You know, it's kind of businessas usual.
(12:04):
It is frightening to think thatyou're kind of bouncing along
and bang right and I feel reallyfortunate and really lucky to
have you know, to be able totell this story where I've run
into so many people that tell meyou know of endings that a
(12:25):
pretty sad story, that prettysad, you know so.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Um, I'm for one.
I'm, I'm in favor of yourintuition.
I'm not the doctor here, thatand I but I think that, um, uh,
in my case, I was also hadintuitions about what happened
to me.
You know, usually theintuitions are right.
I really think that I thinkthat, um, you probably are right
, it probably would happen.
And they I think that youprobably are right, it probably
would happen.
And they don't want to say thatbecause it's just something
that doesn't fit into what theyread in their papers and all the
(12:53):
stuff that they're using toback up their knowledge.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, you know, I think you know my wife was an OR
nurse for years and you know Ihave so much respect for the
medical profession and I thinkthey're really good at treating
what they know and sometimes notthat great at figuring out what
it is they need to treat.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I really think that's where there's a blind spot in a
lot of the medical profession.
Menace again, it's a practice.
I always told my doctors you'repracticing medicine, right.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
When are you going to get it right?
But I love my doctors.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You were practicing medicine right.
When are you going to get itright?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I love my doctors.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I have nothing bad to say about doctors.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
No, I was so impressed with how they handled
it.
After the fact, I remember thefirst hospital I was in, the
doctor said to my wife she askedhim you know you don't have a
neurologist on staff here.
What happens if he bleeds out?
And he said, well, we have himon a monitor and we have someone
(13:53):
on call.
And she said, yeah, but someoneon call has to drive here.
That's a.
You know, that's an acute event.
Right, you need somebodydealing with that instantly once
that happens.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Was that Salem?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
That was at Salem yeah.
And you know I'm thankful forthe ER doctor, because he was
straight with me, you know, andhe seemed a little overwhelmed
with it, you know I mean, butyou know he gave me the correct
advice in the end.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So, um, and I love those.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, doctors I gotta tell you, yeah, you know so
much on their plate.
And then you know, and thenwhen I crossed the bridge into
boston, uh, uh and, and theywere going to send me home, it
was kind of like wow yeah,that's, that's disconcerted.
That's a little uhdisconcerting that they would
have been ready to send you homebut in the end they did, you
(14:49):
know, they saved me, so that'sright, they did my wife and them
and you had great advice.
Your wife was advocating foryou.
That's amazingly, yeah it's soimportant to have an advocate.
I mean, I was out of it, Ididn't know.
Oh, my god.
Yeah, you know, I probablywould have agreed to anything.
Yeah, you know, um, just let meget my regular sight back.
I don't care what you do, youknow.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
So uh what happened like?
How did you feel during all ofthat, when, when it was
happening?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I mean it was anxiety provoking because I I really I
don't know how long my sight wasgone on that one.
It was like a gray kind offabric, you know, kind of over
one of my eyes, and then, like Isaid, I had this kind of cheese
like looking through, like acheese grater or something, just
(15:39):
a bunch of holes, and thatstayed with me for about three
days, um you know, uh, and thenit eventually started to fade
and it was just left with thatlittle uh fuzziness in the
corner of my peripheral visionso, as you move on from this, I
think I wonder um, this there'sprobably I'm not gonna, I don't
(16:01):
want to put it the words in yourmouth, but what happened?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Did you feel like a new kind of look at life, a new
kind of uplifting your sensesabout being appreciative of
things?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I was a pretty happy,
functioning guy before thishappened.
But then you just have a newfound appreciation and you know,
then I stopped thinking of thethings that I would complain
about and they seem so silly,you know they.
They seem so like such a wasteof time, right, you know, after
(16:40):
the fact, and you know, like,like I said, I had to wear that
bag of antibiotics for seven oreight weeks coming when I was in
the hospital and that kind ofreally kicked the crap out of me
and I was pretty, you know,pretty tired and pretty beat up
by the time it was all over, butbut so thankful to be able to
(17:01):
to go to sleep without rollingover on an IV line that would
send an alarm off and wake me upyou know, little things like
that, and I did go back to teacha couple of weeks afterwards
with my little suitcase, but Iwould teach two classes and go
home and be exhausted, you know.
(17:21):
So you just take good days forgranted, I think, and then you
realize it after the fact andI'm a pretty accepting, peaceful
, happy to be alive persontwofold from before and after
(17:42):
this, you know, because it iskind of a lottery, you know.
You know, here we are, we havetime to do what.
You know, what, what we want todo, what, what's important to
us, how we treat other people.
You know, and I think it's justa reminder to use that time
(18:08):
wisely and generously and, youknow, be there for other people
that have traumas in their life,you know, and have events,
because people were there for meyou know, and I'll never forget
it.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Definitely think.
I noticed that very strongly,strongly that you had your wife
there and that's such a, yourwife and your daughter, my
family, definitely they kept meon earth.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
honestly, Jackie you want to say something, jackie?
Yeah, I was thinking about howI guess my generation is
millennial and we're uh I can'treally speak for my entire
generation, but I definitelyfeel like millennials and Gen Z
(18:58):
are kind of growing up like verysolitary.
Um, and this is I'm justthinking about what you're
saying about just having both ofyou have cultivated families,
so you have people likeinteracting with you on in such
(19:19):
a deep way, and there's a lot ofwork that goes into creating
those relationships um, and I'mjust thinking about AI.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I think community acts that way too, though you
must see it in the musiccommunity.
I know Vernon did, and I have apretty far-reaching writing
community that I lean on andhope that I help too, and
teaching does it for me.
I feel like I'm really lucky.
(19:59):
I've had a lot of jobs in mylife that I'd have to drag
myself out of bed to get to, and, uh, this is not one of them.
You know, this is one that Ithat I've I finally got, finally
got the dream job.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
yeah, that's amazing sounds like you're really
appreciating your role.
Yeah, you know, and.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
And you know.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I feel like I can try and help other people just by
coming to work, you know.
I'm sure you do.
I think that's a blessing,really.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
So as you were going on from this event and you were
getting your, you know you'reacclimating, you're starting to
feel healthy again and I think,some other things, any other
other blue events that werenoteworthy following that event,
something to do with the book,yeah, I mean, you know the book
had its own kind of uh.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I guess that event started well before the the uh
trauma so the overlapping,that's fine yeah, um, you know,
years ago my wife and I took mykids to it might have been Mass
Smoker or another museum inPittsfield, and they had this
exhibit called Spring Sprocketsand Pulleys.
(21:10):
It was a bunch of figures madeout of recycled material like
life size, human being size, andthey would be in little groups,
like you might have a band, andyou'd go up and press a button
and they were all connected onpulleys and they'd move in this
kind of syncopated rhythm.
You know, and it wasfascinating.
(21:30):
My kids loved it, I loved it.
And I looked over in the cornerand there was this one solitary
figure.
His name was George, he had afishing pole and he had a
watering can for a head and Ijust started thinking about what
would happen if that junk man Icalled him came alive, right.
(21:51):
So you know, I'm percolatingthe story and you know, two
years go by and I'm in newjersey, I was in in an MFA
program and I look at theMorristown Museum and the same
exhibit is there.
So I go again and again I seethat little George in the corner
with the fishing pole and so Istarted to write this story.
(22:14):
A little shame andself-promotion, oh that's fine.
We're going to put the link tothat at the end.
And then I had the story.
I really liked it.
I had an agent that reallyliked it and she got great reads
at big houses and they all saidwonderful things and they all
passed on.
(22:35):
And then I had a second agentwho had it for a very short time
.
She got a few good reads andthen she gave it back to me.
And then I had a third agentand she had it for two years and
she got a lot of great readsand, again, a lot of wonderful
comments.
I had one guy that passed on.
(22:55):
It said I'll never drive by ajunkyard again without thinking
in this novel, but yeah, theypass.
And then I'm like, well, whyare you passing on it?
You know?
Um, so this was the this, thiswas the road for this novel.
I think it was about eight ornine years from the time I
finished the first draft of it,because each agent would dive
(23:17):
into more edits and it would getrewritten again, and so I think
it was eight or nine years andI took it back from the agent
that had it and I started toshop it to publishers on my own
and that's when it landed atRegal House Publishing in North
(23:39):
Carolina.
And so you know, I tellstudents when I because it's
it's marketed as the middlegrade novel, but I think it's a
novel for adults too.
And but when I go into schoolsto read it, I just tell kids
look, if you have an idea, ifyou have something you believe
in, don't give up.
(24:02):
A day before the miraclehappens, you know, just hang in
there.
And you know I could wallpapermy house with rejection slips
right from all the writing thatI've done and I just got one
today, you know, on a poetrymanuscript.
So it's to me it's like if youbelieve in it, persevere with it
(24:27):
and something will happen.
And I'm really excited thatthat I've had.
This book came out in 23.
It was my sixth book, fifthbook, and you know I've been
able to get around and travel todifferent states and read in
schools.
And you know, if I hadn't goneto that museum on that day with
(24:51):
my kids and saw that exhibit,you know this would have never
happened.
So I don't know.
I think there's kind ofsignposts out there all the time
for us and if we're open enoughto to entertain kind of what we
think might even be impossible,you know.
(25:12):
Then I think maybe we canfollow that intuition to a place
that is successful.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, that's.
That's summarizes whatinspiration really is.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
And I w, I was a kid, that uh.
You know, when I was younger, Istuttered all the time I was um
.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Can I read you a poem about that?
Oh yeah, please do.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Because I read this to the kids.
When I go to read the Junkmanbecause this is who I was as a
kid this is called Getting itRight In grammar school I
stuttered, felt the hot panic onmy face when my turn to read
crept up the row.
Even when I counted theparagraphs and memorized the
(25:59):
passage, I'd trip on the firstor second word and then it would
be over.
The awful hesitation, the wordclinging to the lining of my
throat, rising only too late toavoid the laughter around me.
I was never the smartest kid inthe room, but I had answers I
knew were right, yet was afraidto say them.
(26:19):
Years later it all came out,flowing sentences.
I practiced over and overShakespeare or Frost, my own
tall tales in low-lit bar rooms,scribbled in black-bound
journals, rehearsing,anticipating my turn, my time, a
way of finally getting it right.
So I love it.
(26:43):
That was really good.
You know I read that sometimesbefore I read the junk man to
tell kids, because it's a storyabout overcoming obstacles.
You know junior miles is a 13year old-old, disabled, bullied
kid and you know he manages toovercome a lot of what's put in
(27:04):
front of him.
What's the total name of thatbook?
Kevin, it's Junior Miles andthe Junkman.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I sent you one.
I know that I can't wait toread it.
Yeah, so Junior Miles is thelead character protagonist,
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
yeah, you know.
Basically what happens in thestory is Junior's father dies at
the beginning of the novel.
He's a junk sculptor.
They live on the grounds of ajunkyard and he leaves him this
life-size figure in the shed inthe back of the junkyard and he
comes alive and sends him on allthese journeys, all designed to
overcome the grief of losinghis father.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Oh, that's a wonderful story.
What a great idea.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You know, and I'm not even sure how I framed that
story like that.
My father, you know, I was inmy late 40s, I think, when my
father died.
You know he and I had a prettylong life together, but I don't
know, there's just somethingabout the story about this kid
and his mother kind of hangingon to each other through this
(28:04):
that felt right.
I graduated from college in1980.
And I worked a bunch ofdifferent jobs and we knew each
other in the 80s, bernie, ohyeah, and you know, from fry
cook to bartender, toconstruction worker, and then
(28:24):
one day I had two little kidsand I had dabbled in writing
stuff but it was kind ofpersonal, I wasn't sharing it,
and I said I want to write more.
And I started taking creativewriting classes at Salem State.
And I don't know if youremember Rod Kessler, jacqueline
, do you?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
yeah, yeah, he was my advisor, or something yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So I took a creative writing class, myself and a
friend of mine, with, uh, rodKessler, and then I I took every
course Rod Kessler taught forthe next two years and finally
someone said to me look, youhave so many credits, you might
as well matriculate and get amaster's degree.
And I did, but I really wantedan MFA.
(29:11):
So I did a low residency MFA atFairleigh Dickinson in New
Jersey and when I was there Iwent for fiction writing and I
ran into all these crazy NewJersey poets and I started
writing this narrative poetrylike one I just read to you.
And then I got a book published.
(29:31):
And then I got a second bookand a third book published.
What kind of books were those?
The first three books werepoetry.
Three out of the first fourwere poetry books.
And you know, here I was wantingto be a fiction writer and all
I could publish was poetry.
So you know, sometimes theuniverse decides that this is
what has to happen first.
And you know, my poetry isreally narrative.
(29:53):
It's not that far removed fromsounding like fiction, it's
prosy.
Right, that far removed fromsounding like fiction, it's
prosy.
I think I was open enough toget out of my own way and just
accept what it was that washappening, even though I had
grander designs.
Not that fiction is any moregrand than poetry, but mean it's
(30:18):
just.
You know, here I was, I'm goingto be this fiction writer and
this poetry just kind of took meover.
So, um, and largely because ofpeople, I met this friend of
mine, uh, maria maziotti gillen,who has become a wonderful
friend of mine, who I do poetryworkshops with twice a year in
new jersey, and I just keptmeeting all these really cool
(30:40):
Jersey poets.
I didn't expect that to happen.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That's what I call like out of the blue, because
you're putting yourself outthere.
First of all, we have to putourselves out there.
Nothing will happen if you'resitting in your house twiddling
your thumbs or going to Dunkin'Donuts and doing the job you
don't love and not doinganything about it.
You do have to take the chanceand if you don't, nothing
ventured, nothing gained.
(31:06):
Right, I mean, but God helpsthose who help themselves.
I feel like that's really thetruth.
If you go out and do it, Ithink something out of the blue
will keep you going or guide you.
That's what I see happening toeverybody that's been on the
show.
It's like amazingly consistentthat people will find a sort of
guiding light.
(31:27):
Whatever it is In your case,you just wanted to write.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
No, it was great, it was such a learning experience
and I trusted these people I wasmeeting.
And then so I mean these peopleI was meeting, and you know.
And then so I mean, here I was,I had two degrees and I threw
my name into human resources atSalem State and I remember I got
a call from the, the actingchair of the department at the
time, and he said I have a worldlit class open if you want to
(31:57):
teach it.
And this was on a Saturday.
I said yeah, when does it start?
He said Wednesday, and I waslike holy crap.
So I said yes, before I couldsay no and, you know, before I
could think too much about it,and I'd call up friends of mine
who were teachers.
You know what's your syllabus,you know what do you use, and I
(32:19):
just didn't have Homer layingaround on the coffee table, you
know.
And so I stayed a week ahead ofthe students the whole semester
, and when it was over I saidwow, that was, that was a blast.
You know, like I really felt,like you know.
I mean, here's this kid thatthey couldn't read aloud in
(32:40):
school because he stuttered.
And now I'm up in front of theclass, you know, talking about
world lit in a college, no less,right, yeah, and so it just
felt like a moment for me, youknow.
And so I, I hung in there andworked as an adjunct for many
years and got sometimes a coupleclasses, sometimes three, and I
(33:03):
had some filmmaking experience.
So every once in a while, afull-time, two-year job would
come up and I would be luckyenough to get that.
It's just one step at a time.
If you have an interest and youpursue it, something will
happen.
Step at a time.
If you have an interest and youpursue it, something will
happen.
You know, I mean, when I was akid, I wanted to play for the
boston celtics, but I turned outto be 5'8 and you know, um so,
(33:27):
but I coached basketball for 19years.
Like I stayed connected to thedream a little, you know.
So, uh, I think it's all.
I think.
If you have something in yourgut, just let it go where it's
going to go and just stayconnected to it, however you can
, and things will happen thatyou might not expect.
That might be the best thingsthat could ever happen to you,
(33:48):
and in this case, teaching atSalem State was that thing for
me.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's again.
We're back to the title of theshow Out of the Blue.
You know that's again.
We're back to the title of theshow out of the blue because
essentially, I think what we allcome to realize in our lives is
just how much of it it comesout of the blue, how much of we
want things, we go for them, putall our work into them, but we
don't really know exactly howit's going to unfold until
(34:14):
certain things come our way, andso those are the flags, those
are the signposts and that, youknow, people listening to our
show would realize talk aboutthis stuff.
That's it.
We want to start theconversation.
We think about ourselves, asyou know, not so much that we're
in control so much, but thethings we're in control of our
(34:35):
own self and getting thoseinspirations and following
through on them.
I think that's a that'ssomething that makes me think of
Anthony Brown we had on acouple of episodes, last episode
or two and he was saying thatone of the things his higher
power told him was finish whatyou start.
Like if you get inspired to dosomething, you have a dream like
(34:55):
you're saying.
You have a dream like what yousaid, you should go for it.
You shouldn't just be at thebar someday going.
I know I wished I could havedone.
You should be doing it, youknow do it.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Well, I mean, I used to be that guy in the bar room
saying, oh, I know I could be awriter, and then you know,
forgetting that, oh yeah, youhave to write to do that.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
You can't sit here and drink.
It's just building your nextelbow exercise.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
There's one thing missing in this right yeah, yeah
, you, you, you have to actuallywrite to make it happen To be a
writer, you must write thelesson I'm getting you know.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
The biggest takeaway for hearing this is you know.
First of all, it's veryinspiring the journey you've had
and I think that you got theokay for Junior and the junk man
that was after that trauma,wasn't it when that came?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
to you?
Yeah, it was, and that was fallof 2019, and that book got
published in 2023.
You know, vernon, I think a lotof it is too is just being
humble enough to like not haveall the answers and not really
know, but know there's somethingin your gut that's making you
(36:07):
want to pursue this thing andbeing, you know, being open
enough to accept some of thesignposts that are out there,
and you have to kind of get outof your own way sometimes.
You know, I had a friend yearsago that used to say I may not
be much, but I'm all I thinkabout, and you know.
(36:31):
So I think I have to rememberthat, like when I feel like I'm
really in charge, you know theuniverse might have different
plans.
I think I'm an open enoughperson that if I start down a
road some way and someopportunity jumps out at me that
I'm going to pay attention toit now, because I've been lucky
(36:54):
enough to have thoseopportunities come to fruition.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Yeah, when you said, when something comes your way,
you're going to listen to it nowand jump at the opportunity.
It sounds like you've beensharpening your like, your tool,
like for assessing what'scoming your way, like seeing,
seeing the signpost.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
I think maybe I look more for them too.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You know that I don't think everything is just chance
.
I think it's well, wait aminute.
I heard that story for a reason, or I listened to that
interview for a reason, and Ithink it actually is kind of
comforting to think that, youknow, maybe these things are
being put in your path and it'sit's almost disingenuous not to
(37:44):
pay attention to them.
You know, I ended up meetingthe guy who had that exhibit His
name is Steve Gerber, which helives in Newburgh, new York and
I went to his studio and it's acrazy place.
You walk in, he flicks a switchand there's his feet hanging
from the ceiling, kickingfootballs and things rotating
around.
(38:04):
It's just he's a super nice guyand I dedicated some of the
book to him and told him it washis.
So we've we've met each other inperson and hung out and you
know, stay kind of in touch witheach other, hung out, and you
know, stay kind of in touch witheach other.
So you know, I feel like theart world and the writing world
have kind of met in that way andthat's really cool.
(38:27):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, I just had a movie,premiere of that movie.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Oh right, Tell us all about that.
How'd that come out of the book?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well, there was a friend of mine.
We went to the MFA programtogether and we used to laugh
and joke about the program allthe time Because it was.
You know.
I got a ton out of the program,but there were some things
about it that were kind of funkyand we used to always joke
around about it.
So we decided to write a play.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
What were the funky things?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Well, it was the first year of the program and
there was just, you know, therewere some funny people involved
in the running of it, and youknow.
So we used to just joke witheach other.
And so we wrote this play aboutfour MFA students going to a
residency and it turns into amurder mystery.
(39:18):
We had a reading, I remember,during COVID.
We had a reading online withpeople.
And then I approached a theaterdirector here at Salem State,
peter Sampieri, and we weregoing to stage the play because
he had done a play of mine a fewyears ago up in Newburyport,
the active studio.
Then the more we talked, themore we said you know, this
(39:41):
would make a fun movie.
And so we applied for somegrants and we were lucky enough
to get them.
And then we went to a retreathouse in New Jersey where I
teach twice a year with MariaMaziotti-Gillen, and we rented
the space and Peter and Ico-directed it and we went up
(40:02):
and shot the movie in four daysand then shot one day in Salem
and a couple of pickup dayslater on, and I'd been editing
that thing since July and we hada premiere April 30th and it
was great.
We had a sold-out theater andpeople really thought it was.
It's very silly and farcical.
(40:24):
There's a lot of puns in it.
It's a knock on higher ed.
So you know if you can't makefun of yourself right I think
that's a great thing.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, I love, I want to watch it.
Is it streaming anywhere orwhat it'll?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
be available.
I'm getting, uh, I have to geta print made that can go to the
festivals called the dcp andonce that happens I'll be able
to send it to people to see.
But um, so, uh, you know thatjust started with myself and
this guy joking around with eachother.
So you know, you said somethingabout finishing stuff.
(40:57):
I am good at finishing stuff,like if I, if I say if I get an
idea, and I do collaborate a lot.
You'll see, uh, one of thebooks I sent you was a
collaboration on, uh, this poet,carlene michaels, and I.
We used to meet after thepandemic and give each other
(41:18):
prompts to write poems about theGreek gods, and so we
reimagined the Greek gods livingin a modern gated community.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And I saw that description in the book.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
That sounds interesting, here I go.
Shame with self-promotion.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Oh please, if we're not, we're all about that, yeah
we have no shame on out of theblue.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
No shame I sent you one of those too, but you know
that was a blast and we werefriends and we didn't expect
anything to happen with thatreally.
And then we published a coupleof them individually and then we
found a publisher who wanted it.
So, um, really it just cameabout generically, just a couple
of poet friends gettingtogether, because now people
(42:00):
will back out and go into coffeeshops again, and it wasn't the
lockdown pandemic anymore, youknow.
So something bad led tosomething good again, so I'm a
fortunate guy really.
I just but once I have a projectin my hands, I do want to
(42:21):
finish it.
I don't feel like I've done theidea justice just by playing
around with it.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I agree with that.
It's like when things come,inspirations come out of the
blue.
I mean, first of all you get asickness, a trauma out of the
blue and you try to use that tofirst of all inspire you to get
through it, inspire you to learnhow to deal with it, and you
learn things about love andconnection that are very
(42:48):
valuable in your whole humanexperience.
But then what I take away fromyou, kevin, is you've also
developed a real keen eye to seethose out of the blue things
coming.
It's like I think the morekeyed in you get to the
wavelength that is out of theblue, the more your life becomes
(43:08):
full of these wonderfulexperiences where you meet
somebody and through jokingabout the program begets an idea
for a movie.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, it's just, you know, you go home and write
about Zeus and I'll go home andwrite about Hera, and then all
of a sudden we have two poemsand then we start thinking, hey,
maybe this is something youknow.
And then it just grows out ofthat kind of generic chance
meeting of a friend and writingsomething down.
You know.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Anybody that's an artist really relates to this a
lot, but I do think that normalpeople, not just artists, have
definitely the ability to dothis, to be able to well.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
I've been called a lot of things never normal.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
No, I think once you become an artist of any kind,
you already you left that behind.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
You're going to be a little quirky compared to yeah,
I think I just really like, youknow, uh, I like collaborating
with other artists.
I mean, there are times I likenot collaborating, there's times
I just want to embracesomething on my own, uh.
But you know, uh, I think youlearn a lot by trying to work
(44:17):
with other people, even if it's,you know, even if it's
frustrating at times.
It's kind of like you learn theact of give and take.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
I think when I was younger, if I got an idea, it
was a little harder for me tocollaborate.
I felt like, oh no, you'regoing to hurt my idea.
But as I got older and wiser, Istarted to love collaboration
and really, when I tuned into itand became really loved it,
it's when first stage of my lifesuccess began to happen.
(44:49):
What I loved about any kind ofwriting I've ever done is this
all collaboration, so muchcollaboration, especially when
it comes to writing a screenplayor getting into something
that's going to be a performance.
It's a huge collaboration.
Everybody, even the actors,would collaborate.
You know they could change it,yeah.
Yeah, I don't say it that way.
You know what I mean.
So there's a clue I know it's.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
You know, years ago I would write something I'd want
to give it to somebody to readand I'd be thinking to myself
just tell me how much you likethis, you know.
And then, because my ego wasn'tready for all the rejection
that that comes with it, but youknow, now it's like I just say
be honest, tell me what youthink.
Right, right, collaboration isthat really?
Speaker 1 (45:31):
it's about, yeah, yeah, learning to understand
that a criticism is a negativething.
It's, it's a help, it's aid.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, and I think if you're going to be, you know,
open enough to let somebody reador look at or view something
that you've done, then you haveto allow them to be honest in
what they think about it and youdon't have to agree with it at
all.
I always say this to mystudents Look, if you're in a
writing workshop and and you getfive different opinions, well
(46:01):
you go home and do what you want.
You don't need to embraceeverything that everybody else
tells you, but be open enough tolisten to it, because it might
lead you to do something thatmakes it better, you know yeah,
I can expand your view, your,yeah, definitely.
People see them differently.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
We're not speaking the same language most of the
time.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, and plus we're so into it, right.
We're in that little closedspace in our mind about this is
my thing, right, and you have togive that thing away.
I mean, I'm always telling mystudents that you know, if you
write something and publish it,it's not in your business
anymore, it's what the readersthink about.
(46:45):
So someone could totallymisinterpret your poem or your
essay or your piece of fiction.
That's fair game.
That's what they got out of it,right.
So you really do have to tryand control the ego and just
tell it to go back where it camefrom and just be open enough to
(47:09):
kind of embrace differentopinions that you wouldn't come
up with on your own.
Like you said, it can nourishit, it can make it something
better, something different,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I mean, I've written a lot of songs in my life and to
me I look at a musicalinspiration as sort of something
coming out of the blue I usedto say out of the mist and it
would come more and more clearto me.
I might say out of the shadows.
Out of the shadows, but I likethat too.
But as it comes through, whenyou have stopped putting it on
(47:46):
paper or recording it orwhatever you're doing, yeah,
you're going to bring in extrapeople and they're going to help
solidify that, get it clearer,and you know when they're giving
the kind of the right feedback.
You can feel it Becauseactually what we're talking
about here is something that'scalled an idea.
I mean, it's intangible and it'stotally out there and where our
(48:08):
job as an artist or a writer ofany kind is to make that thing
something that other people cantouch, feel, see and hear, and
you hope it transforms.
It's transformative.
You hope that when they see orhear or read it or whatever,
that they connect with thewavelength of what you think the
message is.
But you have no control overthat and that's the baffling
(48:33):
part.
You know you really you get.
I used to hear all kinds ofinterpretations of songs and I
personally knew what they wereabout, but they weren't about
that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Well, that was my little joke about Ghost in the
Shadows.
I know that, I think that.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, jackie Kevin, we did a video with both Ghost
in the Shadows as one of oursongs.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I love that video.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah, so we just used it.
I I actually collaborated witha photographer from salem state
named stephanie young and uh, anold, revered person, jennifer
martelli, you know I knowjennifer yeah, well, jennifer is
a poet too, so we wrote poemsto stephanie's photographs.
And again, here I go, shamelesspromotion.
(49:17):
I'm gonna put a blinking signshameless promotion and this
book came out of it, but it wasa photography exhibit with 14
beautiful photographs of rivierabeach.
And then we, our poems, actedas kind of placards, like
information cards, next to thephotograph, and we just had it
in the gallery here at SalemState and it's going to be at
(49:46):
the Mass Poetry Festival in thePeabody Essex Museum on the 30th
May 30th.
It's again just another chancecollaboration.
Stephanie had showed me somephotographs and I said, wow, I
wonder what these would looklike with poems.
And I pulled Jennifer in andtwo years later we ended up with
a book and an exhibit.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
I'm just going back a little bit.
I'm glad that you collaboratedwith your wife to not
collaborate with that bacteria.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's well put.
Yeah, it is.
You know, I and again it isn'tjust I mean I trusted what my
wife was thinking and you know,because, left to my own devices,
I probably would have made thewrong decision and that's
emblematic of a lot of my life.
(50:34):
I would say that's a perfectway to describe Making the wrong
decision.
Left to my own thinking, rightwhen, when I've leaned on other
people to explore it and talkabout it and come up with a
decision collaboratively, I'veusually made a better decision.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And it's one key.
The key point of that Jackiepointed out was that you know it
was with your wife whom youtrusted.
You know that's an importantpart of collaboration to have
that full trust with each other,and when you're in that space,
anything's possible.
You'll complete the work.
I think Everything you do willbe completed to the best it can
(51:10):
be.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Or trust.
Respect like respect.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
First, Respect is even more important.
I think.
Well, I think you have to haveboth you definitely have to.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, I mean, if you don't, if you, if you don't
respect someone, it's hard totrust them right?
you're always thinking of whyyou don't respect them, yeah,
and that this information is notgoing to be what I need,
because I don't respect thisperson, right, you don't know
where it's coming from.
I mean mean, I remember when Iwas in that MFA program I was
still focused on fiction, butyou had to take a crossover
(51:41):
genre, so you had to take agenre in something else.
So I took poetry and this poetrest his soul Bill Zander.
I wrote this poem about beingon a train going to New York at
a crazy time in my life and heread that poem and he said this
poem's a keeper.
And I remember saying, wow,this guy's a pretty good poet.
(52:04):
He's telling me this poem is akeeper.
And that became a title poem forthe first book I ever published
.
I don't know if that would havehappened without him saying
that.
So I always remember that, asmuch as I'm trying to correct
student writing or the biggerpart of the job is encouraging
(52:25):
it.
Right, it's saying this is Ireally like what you're doing
here and maybe think aboutworking on this part of it.
But you know, because you neverknow what little piece of
encouragement can do to somebody, because you never know what a
little piece of encouragementcan do to somebody and just make
you feel kind of worthy andthat you're on the right track
and that you're doing somethingthat is working.
(52:47):
And sometimes it is just a kindword of encouragement more than
anything else that can keep yougoing.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Especially being at the start of something.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah.
It can be really fragile to bethere than anything else that
can keep you going, especiallybeing at the start of something.
Yeah, yeah, it can be reallyfragile to be there.
Yeah, I mean it can be dauntingto think about the whole
process.
But if you have one poem or onestory that someone says you
know what?
This is really good.
Then you can build on that, andI think that's what happened to
me.
It's like I had people alongthe way saying they liked what I
(53:21):
was doing and without that Imight have given up a long time
ago the takeaway from this forme I guess hopefully our
audience and uh is that youfirst of all.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
you already were developing collaboration skills
in your writing adventure, butthat key collaboration that day
in the emergency room, it's thereason we're talking right now.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yeah because a lot of it happened post that.
You know I can't be moregrateful than I am that it
happened the way it happened.
I don't wish it happening toanybody but you know it's scary
and it's frightening, but I'mjust so grateful that I was able
to kind of get lucky enough toget treated in time and gave me
(54:11):
time to do more work right, tohave more fun.
That's what we got from.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Kevin Keery.
It's an incredible body of workthat's getting better every day
, and I think I predict theJunkman book.
I think it's a great movie idea.
From our lips to God's ears.
God listens to me, right, god,that's a funny one oh.
Shut the F up.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
I've never heard that before.
What you never heard thatexpression?
No, well, that's because you'redealing with two old guys here.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
I'm always coming up with them.
She says where'd you get that?
No, but that's a funnyexpression, I like it yeah, I
think we could probably say thatwhat a great episode this has
been, kevin and um uh, thank youfor asking me to do this.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
I'm I'm really, uh, really touched that you thought
of me and uh, well, I'm thrilledyou're here.
Great to see you again.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Great to see you again just to let everybody know
, there'll be some great linksat the end of the podcast that
you can look up, get dive deepinto kevin's books and
everything like that and um, andwhen that mfa, the terminal
degree comes out, you got tomake sure you see it and I'm
sure if you get you know, get intouch with us, stay on this,
we'll.
We'll definitely update youwhen things like that come along
(55:31):
from our out of the bluepodcast site.
So thank you so much, kevin.
We so much appreciate you heretoday.
It really was a wonderful,wonderful episode, very
inspiring, and I mean I learneda lot too.
I mean I always learn, but Ilearned, I learned a lot and I
continue to learn from theseepisodes, especially with
someone like you and, yeah, I'mgoing to be calling you about
(55:53):
some stuff with regarding somebooks.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
That's right.
We have another collaboration.
We're collaborating onsomething.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
And speaking of getting things made into movies
and stuff, we're going to startexploring that very soon.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm ready to go.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
I definitely have some context out there we've got
to use.
Okay, at any rate, anybodylistening.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Smash that like button and hitthe subscribe button, because
every little bit helps and wecertainly need your loving help.
Thank you so much, jackie.
Thank you so much, kevin.
So much, bye-bye everybody.
(56:31):
Out of the Blue, the podcastHosted by me, vernon West,
co-hosted by Jacqueline West,edited by Joe Gallo, music and
(57:03):
logo by Vernon West III.
Have an Out of the Blue storyof your own you'd like to share?
Reach us at info atoutoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
Subscribe to Out of the Blue onApple Podcasts, spotify or
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Welcome to Out of the Blue the podcast, a platform
dedicated to celebratinginspirational stories of people
from all walks of life,overcoming life-changing
experiences, who have foundtheir way forward.
I'm your host, vernon West, andmy co-host for today's episode
is my daughter, jackie West, who, along with being our social
(00:45):
media and marketing manager, isa professional musician and
Reiki healer.
And I also want to thank you,our listeners, for joining us
today, for giving us yourprecious time and attention,
because we know just howvaluable that is, and please
remember to smash that likebutton and hit that subscribe
(01:05):
button, because everything helpsto get the word out there.
In today's episode, we'rethrilled to welcome Kevin Carey,
a native of Revere,massachusetts, now residing in
Cape Ann.
Kevin is the coordinator ofcreative writing at Salem State
University and the author ofseven acclaimed books.
(01:26):
He's here to share theincredible story of a
life-altering event thatunexpectedly landed him in the
hospital, fighting for survival.
Kevin will take us through hisjourney of recovery and how he
transformed a traumaticexperience into a story of
resilience and triumph into astory of resilience and triumph,
(01:47):
thriving as both anaward-winning author and an
esteemed educator.
Hi, kevin, and welcome to Outof the Blue the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Hello, vernon and Jackie, it's nice to be here.
Thank you, good to have youGood to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You know, kevin, I know we've had a bit of a talk,
we know a pretty good idea, butI really have a lot to learn
from this.
So tell us to start off withwhat really that event that
brings you to Out of the Blue,the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, it was a Thursday evening, fall of 2019.
I was sitting at my desk in myoffice getting ready to teach an
evening class I think it was aplaywriting or scriptwriting
class and I went to stand up andthe whole room resembled an old
(02:35):
Zenith television set all wavylines and the whole picture in
front of me.
I lost sight in one eyetemporarily and temporarily, and
so I knew something was goingon.
And I remember I walkedupstairs to the classroom and I
said guys, I think I'm having astroke.
Can someone you know call 911?
And so they came and I gotrushed to Salem Hospital and I
(03:03):
had managed to call my wife, andmy wife and daughter met the
ambulance there, and so they dida scan and they thought they
saw something in my brain, ablockage in my brain.
So by the time they figuredthat out, the ER doctor said to
me look, there's a medication toclear that blockage.
(03:24):
The problem with the medicationis you need to take it an hour
from the onset of the incident,and so you have about five
minutes to make up your mind.
And he said oh yeah, by the way, a certain percent of percent
of people get brain bleeds fromthis medicine.
Yikes.
(03:45):
So my wife's a former nurse andshe's calling colleagues of her
and trying to figure out shouldhe take this.
Should he?
You know?
And a long story short, thedoctor came back into the ER and
said I asked him.
I said what would you do?
Or my wife asked him.
He said if you are my father, Itell you not to take it.
(04:05):
So we didn't take it andanyways it didn't.
I still had all this funkyvision going on.
It's kind of like lookingthrough a cheese board or a
grate with a bunch of holes andmy sight was coming back in the
eye that it had gone out of alittle bit.
So they kept me overnight andthey had called a neurologist.
(04:31):
There was one on call but therewas nobody in the hospital.
And then one other phone callthey made, somebody told them to
send me home and to come see anophthalmologist in the morning,
that they knew what this was.
So neither of those thingssounded very plausible to my
(04:51):
wife.
Thank goodness she was there.
And the next day I was moved toa hospital in Boston and they
couldn't find out what it was.
So I was in there two days andthey were sending me home.
And then my wife asked thenurse why does he still have a
(05:13):
temperature again?
And that's when they decidedwe'll do a blood culture.
And they did the blood cultureand they found that I had a
bacterial blood infection andwhat had happened was a piece of
(05:34):
that bacteria flew off in mybloodstream, went through my
heart and lodged in my brain andthat's what caused the stroke
incident.
Twice two hospitals weresending me home, right, and they
didn't know what it was.
And if it wasn't for my wifespeaking up for me, I probably
(05:55):
would have went home and eitherbled out or gone into sepsis or
you know whatever.
And you know it's amazing.
Once they knew what it was, Ihad teams of doctors coming in.
Really, the care was great.
I had neurologists, infectiousdisease MDs, and you know like
they knew how to treat this.
(06:16):
Now that they knew what it wasand the treatment was a PICC
line into my vein that went tomy heart and a box of
antibiotics that I carriedaround like a shoulder bag for
eight weeks.
You know kind of kicked thecrap out of me, but it did what
it was supposed to do.
It got rid of the bacteria inmy blood and you know it felt
(06:42):
all so surreal, really, until itwas almost over.
And then I started thinking backon it and I kept running into
people and I told them whathappened and they'd say oh yeah,
my cousin died of that, or myfriend down the block died from
that.
And when you mention bacterialblood infection, the outcomes
(07:02):
are not good for a lot of people, this is true.
So I think if I had really gonehome either of those times, I
think I would have been introuble, you know.
Oh yeah.
So I credit my wife for savingmy life, and you know which
she's probably done in more waysthan one over the years.
(07:22):
Well, I can agree with that.
You know, I was a prettyhealthy guy.
I mean, I had been a bigdrinker years ago and I'd
stopped drinking for many years.
So, you know, once thathappened, I became pretty
healthy.
You know, I really wasn't sickthat often.
I kind of bounced through lifeand did most of the things that
(07:46):
I wanted to do and then bang,you know, this thing just kind
of falls in my lap one nightsitting at my desk, and nobody
knows how I got it.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
They don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
They had theories.
They wanted to take mygallbladder out and I said, well
, was it from the gallbladder?
And they were like we don'tknow.
But you know it could be andI'm like I don't think I want to
lose body parts if I don't haveto.
You know there was.
We have a theory.
We had been down the Cape acouple of weeks before that.
(08:20):
I think maybe let me back upabout three years before that I
had gotten this thing called anocular migraine.
It's like an aura in your eye.
It lasts about 20 minutes andthen goes away.
And I had had a couple of thoseover the years and I think I
mostly associated them withdehydration if I worked out too
(08:41):
much and I didn't drink enoughwater.
But then after we got home fromthe Cape, I had been swimming
in the water.
It was after a rainstorm, itwas really warm and I had a hole
in my eardrum and my earplugfell out.
And as I was swimming I lookedand I saw a dead fish in the
water.
So then I got home and then Ihad like four of these ocular
(09:05):
migraines within five days.
So our theory is I don't knowif it's true or not is that I
must have got some bacteria fromthe ocean that went in my ear
and into my bloodstream, but thedoctors didn't agree with that.
They said they didn't see thatas being the source.
Didn't agree with that, theysaid they didn't see that as
(09:26):
being the source.
Long story to say, I havereally no idea how I got this to
begin with and where it camefrom, what the onset was, how it
got into my system.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
It was literally out of the blue on its fortune.
Literally out of the blue, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Meaning you could say the ocean, like in what yard
theory that would have been outof the blue.
Yeah, yeah, meaning the meaning, the everything you could say
the ocean, like in what yardtheory that would have been out
of the blue too, the ocean.
That would have been definitelyspecifically out of the blue
yeah, right really specificallylike from the blue yeah, but I'm
the blue, yeah, no or, or thesky I mean yeah, yeah yeah, yeah
, it's interesting to hear whatyour intuition about where this
(10:07):
came from goes.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Well, I think the reason I go there is because it
makes me afraid it could happenagain if I don't know what
caused it.
I agree with that.
So, you know, maybe I'm doingsomething right now that caused
it and I don't know.
So that's, you know.
It's crossing the line betweenfear and paranoia, I guess it's
(10:33):
just.
And you know, the thing I thinkthat's the scariest about it is
it's a loss of control, right?
It's something that's affectingthe way you see.
You know, I still have a littlesight loss in my peripheral
vision on that side, and the waythey described it to me was is
(10:59):
that I actually did lose alittle sight, the way the brain
works with my eyes and the brainis making up for what should be
there, and so if I concentrateon it, it's a little kind of
fuzzy, like a camera out offocus, like a little pixelating
(11:21):
video image, and I don't noticeit too much anymore.
Some lights.
If I'm with my head downreading and there's a light over
in that corner, it sometimesdraws attention to it, but I've
just become accustomed to it andit kind of I can make myself
focus on it and it still freaksme out a little, but most of the
(11:42):
time I just forget about it,you know.
So you know of the time I justforget about it, you know.
So, you know.
The damage, thankfully, has beenminimal.
I don't know what it's done tomy brain.
My brain functioned in strangeways before this, so it's hard
to tell what has changed.
You know, it's kind of businessas usual.
(12:04):
It is frightening to think thatyou're kind of bouncing along
and bang right and I feel reallyfortunate and really lucky to
have you know, to be able totell this story where I've run
into so many people that tell meyou know of endings that a
(12:25):
pretty sad story, that prettysad, you know so.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Um, I'm for one.
I'm, I'm in favor of yourintuition.
I'm not the doctor here, thatand I but I think that, um, uh,
in my case, I was also hadintuitions about what happened
to me.
You know, usually theintuitions are right.
I really think that I thinkthat, um, you probably are right
, it probably would happen.
And they I think that youprobably are right, it probably
would happen.
And they don't want to say thatbecause it's just something
that doesn't fit into what theyread in their papers and all the
(12:53):
stuff that they're using toback up their knowledge.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, you know, I think you know my wife was an OR
nurse for years and you know Ihave so much respect for the
medical profession and I thinkthey're really good at treating
what they know and sometimes notthat great at figuring out what
it is they need to treat.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I really think that's where there's a blind spot in a
lot of the medical profession.
Menace again, it's a practice.
I always told my doctors you'repracticing medicine, right.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
When are you going to get it right?
But I love my doctors.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You were practicing medicine right.
When are you going to get itright?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I love my doctors.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I have nothing bad to say about doctors.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
No, I was so impressed with how they handled
it.
After the fact, I remember thefirst hospital I was in, the
doctor said to my wife she askedhim you know you don't have a
neurologist on staff here.
What happens if he bleeds out?
And he said, well, we have himon a monitor and we have someone
(13:53):
on call.
And she said, yeah, but someoneon call has to drive here.
That's a.
You know, that's an acute event.
Right, you need somebodydealing with that instantly once
that happens.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Was that Salem?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
That was at Salem yeah.
And you know I'm thankful forthe ER doctor, because he was
straight with me, you know, andhe seemed a little overwhelmed
with it, you know I mean, butyou know he gave me the correct
advice in the end.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So, um, and I love those.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, doctors I gotta tell you, yeah, you know so
much on their plate.
And then you know, and thenwhen I crossed the bridge into
boston, uh, uh and, and theywere going to send me home, it
was kind of like wow yeah,that's, that's disconcerted.
That's a little uhdisconcerting that they would
have been ready to send you homebut in the end they did, you
(14:49):
know, they saved me, so that'sright, they did my wife and them
and you had great advice.
Your wife was advocating foryou.
That's amazingly, yeah it's soimportant to have an advocate.
I mean, I was out of it, Ididn't know.
Oh, my god.
Yeah, you know, I probablywould have agreed to anything.
Yeah, you know, um, just let meget my regular sight back.
I don't care what you do, youknow.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
So uh what happened like?
How did you feel during all ofthat, when, when it was
happening?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I mean it was anxiety provoking because I I really I
don't know how long my sight wasgone on that one.
It was like a gray kind offabric, you know, kind of over
one of my eyes, and then, like Isaid, I had this kind of cheese
like looking through, like acheese grater or something, just
(15:39):
a bunch of holes, and thatstayed with me for about three
days, um you know, uh, and thenit eventually started to fade
and it was just left with thatlittle uh fuzziness in the
corner of my peripheral visionso, as you move on from this, I
think I wonder um, this there'sprobably I'm not gonna, I don't
(16:01):
want to put it the words in yourmouth, but what happened?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Did you feel like a new kind of look at life, a new
kind of uplifting your sensesabout being appreciative of
things?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I was a pretty happy,
functioning guy before thishappened.
But then you just have a newfound appreciation and you know,
then I stopped thinking of thethings that I would complain
about and they seem so silly,you know they.
They seem so like such a wasteof time, right, you know, after
(16:40):
the fact, and you know, like,like I said, I had to wear that
bag of antibiotics for seven oreight weeks coming when I was in
the hospital and that kind ofreally kicked the crap out of me
and I was pretty, you know,pretty tired and pretty beat up
by the time it was all over, butbut so thankful to be able to
(17:01):
to go to sleep without rollingover on an IV line that would
send an alarm off and wake me upyou know, little things like
that, and I did go back to teacha couple of weeks afterwards
with my little suitcase, but Iwould teach two classes and go
home and be exhausted, you know.
(17:21):
So you just take good days forgranted, I think, and then you
realize it after the fact andI'm a pretty accepting, peaceful
, happy to be alive persontwofold from before and after
(17:42):
this, you know, because it iskind of a lottery, you know.
You know, here we are, we havetime to do what.
You know, what, what we want todo, what, what's important to
us, how we treat other people.
You know, and I think it's justa reminder to use that time
(18:08):
wisely and generously and, youknow, be there for other people
that have traumas in their life,you know, and have events,
because people were there for meyou know, and I'll never forget
it.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Definitely think.
I noticed that very strongly,strongly that you had your wife
there and that's such a, yourwife and your daughter, my
family, definitely they kept meon earth.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
honestly, Jackie you want to say something, jackie?
Yeah, I was thinking about howI guess my generation is
millennial and we're uh I can'treally speak for my entire
generation, but I definitelyfeel like millennials and Gen Z
(18:58):
are kind of growing up like verysolitary.
Um, and this is I'm justthinking about what you're
saying about just having both ofyou have cultivated families,
so you have people likeinteracting with you on in such
(19:19):
a deep way, and there's a lot ofwork that goes into creating
those relationships um, and I'mjust thinking about AI.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I think community acts that way too, though you
must see it in the musiccommunity.
I know Vernon did, and I have apretty far-reaching writing
community that I lean on andhope that I help too, and
teaching does it for me.
I feel like I'm really lucky.
(19:59):
I've had a lot of jobs in mylife that I'd have to drag
myself out of bed to get to, and, uh, this is not one of them.
You know, this is one that Ithat I've I finally got, finally
got the dream job.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
yeah, that's amazing sounds like you're really
appreciating your role.
Yeah, you know, and.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
And you know.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I feel like I can try and help other people just by
coming to work, you know.
I'm sure you do.
I think that's a blessing,really.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
So as you were going on from this event and you were
getting your, you know you'reacclimating, you're starting to
feel healthy again and I think,some other things, any other
other blue events that werenoteworthy following that event,
something to do with the book,yeah, I mean, you know the book
had its own kind of uh.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I guess that event started well before the the uh
trauma so the overlapping,that's fine yeah, um, you know,
years ago my wife and I took mykids to it might have been Mass
Smoker or another museum inPittsfield, and they had this
exhibit called Spring Sprocketsand Pulleys.
(21:10):
It was a bunch of figures madeout of recycled material like
life size, human being size, andthey would be in little groups,
like you might have a band, andyou'd go up and press a button
and they were all connected onpulleys and they'd move in this
kind of syncopated rhythm.
You know, and it wasfascinating.
(21:30):
My kids loved it, I loved it.
And I looked over in the cornerand there was this one solitary
figure.
His name was George, he had afishing pole and he had a
watering can for a head and Ijust started thinking about what
would happen if that junk man Icalled him came alive, right.
(21:51):
So you know, I'm percolatingthe story and you know, two
years go by and I'm in newjersey, I was in in an MFA
program and I look at theMorristown Museum and the same
exhibit is there.
So I go again and again I seethat little George in the corner
with the fishing pole and so Istarted to write this story.
(22:14):
A little shame andself-promotion, oh that's fine.
We're going to put the link tothat at the end.
And then I had the story.
I really liked it.
I had an agent that reallyliked it and she got great reads
at big houses and they all saidwonderful things and they all
passed on.
(22:35):
And then I had a second agentwho had it for a very short time
.
She got a few good reads andthen she gave it back to me.
And then I had a third agentand she had it for two years and
she got a lot of great readsand, again, a lot of wonderful
comments.
I had one guy that passed on.
(22:55):
It said I'll never drive by ajunkyard again without thinking
in this novel, but yeah, theypass.
And then I'm like, well, whyare you passing on it?
You know?
Um, so this was the this, thiswas the road for this novel.
I think it was about eight ornine years from the time I
finished the first draft of it,because each agent would dive
(23:17):
into more edits and it would getrewritten again, and so I think
it was eight or nine years andI took it back from the agent
that had it and I started toshop it to publishers on my own
and that's when it landed atRegal House Publishing in North
(23:39):
Carolina.
And so you know, I tellstudents when I because it's
it's marketed as the middlegrade novel, but I think it's a
novel for adults too.
And but when I go into schoolsto read it, I just tell kids
look, if you have an idea, ifyou have something you believe
in, don't give up.
(24:02):
A day before the miraclehappens, you know, just hang in
there.
And you know I could wallpapermy house with rejection slips
right from all the writing thatI've done and I just got one
today, you know, on a poetrymanuscript.
So it's to me it's like if youbelieve in it, persevere with it
(24:27):
and something will happen.
And I'm really excited thatthat I've had.
This book came out in 23.
It was my sixth book, fifthbook, and you know I've been
able to get around and travel todifferent states and read in
schools.
And you know, if I hadn't goneto that museum on that day with
(24:51):
my kids and saw that exhibit,you know this would have never
happened.
So I don't know.
I think there's kind ofsignposts out there all the time
for us and if we're open enoughto to entertain kind of what we
think might even be impossible,you know.
(25:12):
Then I think maybe we canfollow that intuition to a place
that is successful.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, that's.
That's summarizes whatinspiration really is.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
And I w, I was a kid, that uh.
You know, when I was younger, Istuttered all the time I was um
.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Can I read you a poem about that?
Oh yeah, please do.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Because I read this to the kids.
When I go to read the Junkmanbecause this is who I was as a
kid this is called Getting itRight In grammar school I
stuttered, felt the hot panic onmy face when my turn to read
crept up the row.
Even when I counted theparagraphs and memorized the
(25:59):
passage, I'd trip on the firstor second word and then it would
be over.
The awful hesitation, the wordclinging to the lining of my
throat, rising only too late toavoid the laughter around me.
I was never the smartest kid inthe room, but I had answers I
knew were right, yet was afraidto say them.
(26:19):
Years later it all came out,flowing sentences.
I practiced over and overShakespeare or Frost, my own
tall tales in low-lit bar rooms,scribbled in black-bound
journals, rehearsing,anticipating my turn, my time, a
way of finally getting it right.
So I love it.
(26:43):
That was really good.
You know I read that sometimesbefore I read the junk man to
tell kids, because it's a storyabout overcoming obstacles.
You know junior miles is a 13year old-old, disabled, bullied
kid and you know he manages toovercome a lot of what's put in
(27:04):
front of him.
What's the total name of thatbook?
Kevin, it's Junior Miles andthe Junkman.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I sent you one.
I know that I can't wait toread it.
Yeah, so Junior Miles is thelead character protagonist,
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
yeah, you know.
Basically what happens in thestory is Junior's father dies at
the beginning of the novel.
He's a junk sculptor.
They live on the grounds of ajunkyard and he leaves him this
life-size figure in the shed inthe back of the junkyard and he
comes alive and sends him on allthese journeys, all designed to
overcome the grief of losinghis father.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Oh, that's a wonderful story.
What a great idea.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
You know, and I'm not even sure how I framed that
story like that.
My father, you know, I was inmy late 40s, I think, when my
father died.
You know he and I had a prettylong life together, but I don't
know, there's just somethingabout the story about this kid
and his mother kind of hangingon to each other through this
(28:04):
that felt right.
I graduated from college in1980.
And I worked a bunch ofdifferent jobs and we knew each
other in the 80s, bernie, ohyeah, and you know, from fry
cook to bartender, toconstruction worker, and then
(28:24):
one day I had two little kidsand I had dabbled in writing
stuff but it was kind ofpersonal, I wasn't sharing it,
and I said I want to write more.
And I started taking creativewriting classes at Salem State.
And I don't know if youremember Rod Kessler, jacqueline
, do you?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
yeah, yeah, he was my advisor, or something yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So I took a creative writing class, myself and a
friend of mine, with, uh, rodKessler, and then I I took every
course Rod Kessler taught forthe next two years and finally
someone said to me look, youhave so many credits, you might
as well matriculate and get amaster's degree.
And I did, but I really wantedan MFA.
(29:11):
So I did a low residency MFA atFairleigh Dickinson in New
Jersey and when I was there Iwent for fiction writing and I
ran into all these crazy NewJersey poets and I started
writing this narrative poetrylike one I just read to you.
And then I got a book published.
(29:31):
And then I got a second bookand a third book published.
What kind of books were those?
The first three books werepoetry.
Three out of the first fourwere poetry books.
And you know, here I was wantingto be a fiction writer and all
I could publish was poetry.
So you know, sometimes theuniverse decides that this is
what has to happen first.
And you know, my poetry isreally narrative.
(29:53):
It's not that far removed fromsounding like fiction, it's
prosy.
Right, that far removed fromsounding like fiction, it's
prosy.
I think I was open enough toget out of my own way and just
accept what it was that washappening, even though I had
grander designs.
Not that fiction is any moregrand than poetry, but mean it's
(30:18):
just.
You know, here I was, I'm goingto be this fiction writer and
this poetry just kind of took meover.
So, um, and largely because ofpeople, I met this friend of
mine, uh, maria maziotti gillen,who has become a wonderful
friend of mine, who I do poetryworkshops with twice a year in
new jersey, and I just keptmeeting all these really cool
(30:40):
Jersey poets.
I didn't expect that to happen.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That's what I call like out of the blue, because
you're putting yourself outthere.
First of all, we have to putourselves out there.
Nothing will happen if you'resitting in your house twiddling
your thumbs or going to Dunkin'Donuts and doing the job you
don't love and not doinganything about it.
You do have to take the chanceand if you don't, nothing
ventured, nothing gained.
(31:06):
Right, I mean, but God helpsthose who help themselves.
I feel like that's really thetruth.
If you go out and do it, Ithink something out of the blue
will keep you going or guide you.
That's what I see happening toeverybody that's been on the
show.
It's like amazingly consistentthat people will find a sort of
guiding light.
(31:27):
Whatever it is In your case,you just wanted to write.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
No, it was great, it was such a learning experience
and I trusted these people I wasmeeting.
And then so I mean these peopleI was meeting, and you know.
And then so I mean, here I was,I had two degrees and I threw
my name into human resources atSalem State and I remember I got
a call from the, the actingchair of the department at the
time, and he said I have a worldlit class open if you want to
(31:57):
teach it.
And this was on a Saturday.
I said yeah, when does it start?
He said Wednesday, and I waslike holy crap.
So I said yes, before I couldsay no and, you know, before I
could think too much about it,and I'd call up friends of mine
who were teachers.
You know what's your syllabus,you know what do you use, and I
(32:19):
just didn't have Homer layingaround on the coffee table, you
know.
And so I stayed a week ahead ofthe students the whole semester
, and when it was over I saidwow, that was, that was a blast.
You know, like I really felt,like you know.
I mean, here's this kid thatthey couldn't read aloud in
(32:40):
school because he stuttered.
And now I'm up in front of theclass, you know, talking about
world lit in a college, no less,right, yeah, and so it just
felt like a moment for me, youknow.
And so I, I hung in there andworked as an adjunct for many
years and got sometimes a coupleclasses, sometimes three, and I
(33:03):
had some filmmaking experience.
So every once in a while, afull-time, two-year job would
come up and I would be luckyenough to get that.
It's just one step at a time.
If you have an interest and youpursue it, something will
happen.
Step at a time.
If you have an interest and youpursue it, something will
happen.
You know, I mean, when I was akid, I wanted to play for the
boston celtics, but I turned outto be 5'8 and you know, um so,
(33:27):
but I coached basketball for 19years.
Like I stayed connected to thedream a little, you know.
So, uh, I think it's all.
I think.
If you have something in yourgut, just let it go where it's
going to go and just stayconnected to it, however you can
, and things will happen thatyou might not expect.
That might be the best thingsthat could ever happen to you,
(33:48):
and in this case, teaching atSalem State was that thing for
me.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's again.
We're back to the title of theshow Out of the Blue.
You know that's again.
We're back to the title of theshow out of the blue because
essentially, I think what we allcome to realize in our lives is
just how much of it it comesout of the blue, how much of we
want things, we go for them, putall our work into them, but we
don't really know exactly howit's going to unfold until
(34:14):
certain things come our way, andso those are the flags, those
are the signposts and that, youknow, people listening to our
show would realize talk aboutthis stuff.
That's it.
We want to start theconversation.
We think about ourselves, asyou know, not so much that we're
in control so much, but thethings we're in control of our
(34:35):
own self and getting thoseinspirations and following
through on them.
I think that's a that'ssomething that makes me think of
Anthony Brown we had on acouple of episodes, last episode
or two and he was saying thatone of the things his higher
power told him was finish whatyou start.
Like if you get inspired to dosomething, you have a dream like
(34:55):
you're saying.
You have a dream like what yousaid, you should go for it.
You shouldn't just be at thebar someday going.
I know I wished I could havedone.
You should be doing it, youknow do it.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Well, I mean, I used to be that guy in the bar room
saying, oh, I know I could be awriter, and then you know,
forgetting that, oh yeah, youhave to write to do that.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
You can't sit here and drink.
It's just building your nextelbow exercise.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
There's one thing missing in this right yeah, yeah
, you, you, you have to actuallywrite to make it happen To be a
writer, you must write thelesson I'm getting you know.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
The biggest takeaway for hearing this is you know.
First of all, it's veryinspiring the journey you've had
and I think that you got theokay for Junior and the junk man
that was after that trauma,wasn't it when that came?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
to you?
Yeah, it was, and that was fallof 2019, and that book got
published in 2023.
You know, vernon, I think a lotof it is too is just being
humble enough to like not haveall the answers and not really
know, but know there's somethingin your gut that's making you
(36:07):
want to pursue this thing andbeing, you know, being open
enough to accept some of thesignposts that are out there,
and you have to kind of get outof your own way sometimes.
You know, I had a friend yearsago that used to say I may not
be much, but I'm all I thinkabout, and you know.
(36:31):
So I think I have to rememberthat, like when I feel like I'm
really in charge, you know theuniverse might have different
plans.
I think I'm an open enoughperson that if I start down a
road some way and someopportunity jumps out at me that
I'm going to pay attention toit now, because I've been lucky
(36:54):
enough to have thoseopportunities come to fruition.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Yeah, when you said, when something comes your way,
you're going to listen to it nowand jump at the opportunity.
It sounds like you've beensharpening your like, your tool,
like for assessing what'scoming your way, like seeing,
seeing the signpost.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
I think maybe I look more for them too.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You know that I don't think everything is just chance
.
I think it's well, wait aminute.
I heard that story for a reason, or I listened to that
interview for a reason, and Ithink it actually is kind of
comforting to think that, youknow, maybe these things are
being put in your path and it'sit's almost disingenuous not to
(37:44):
pay attention to them.
You know, I ended up meetingthe guy who had that exhibit His
name is Steve Gerber, which helives in Newburgh, new York and
I went to his studio and it's acrazy place.
You walk in, he flicks a switchand there's his feet hanging
from the ceiling, kickingfootballs and things rotating
around.
(38:04):
It's just he's a super nice guyand I dedicated some of the
book to him and told him it washis.
So we've we've met each other inperson and hung out and you
know, stay kind of in touch witheach other, hung out, and you
know, stay kind of in touch witheach other.
So you know, I feel like theart world and the writing world
have kind of met in that way andthat's really cool.
(38:27):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, I just had a movie,premiere of that movie.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Oh right, Tell us all about that.
How'd that come out of the book?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well, there was a friend of mine.
We went to the MFA programtogether and we used to laugh
and joke about the program allthe time Because it was.
You know.
I got a ton out of the program,but there were some things
about it that were kind of funkyand we used to always joke
around about it.
So we decided to write a play.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
What were the funky things?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Well, it was the first year of the program and
there was just, you know, therewere some funny people involved
in the running of it, and youknow.
So we used to just joke witheach other.
And so we wrote this play aboutfour MFA students going to a
residency and it turns into amurder mystery.
(39:18):
We had a reading, I remember,during COVID.
We had a reading online withpeople.
And then I approached a theaterdirector here at Salem State,
peter Sampieri, and we weregoing to stage the play because
he had done a play of mine a fewyears ago up in Newburyport,
the active studio.
Then the more we talked, themore we said you know, this
(39:41):
would make a fun movie.
And so we applied for somegrants and we were lucky enough
to get them.
And then we went to a retreathouse in New Jersey where I
teach twice a year with MariaMaziotti-Gillen, and we rented
the space and Peter and Ico-directed it and we went up
(40:02):
and shot the movie in four daysand then shot one day in Salem
and a couple of pickup dayslater on, and I'd been editing
that thing since July and we hada premiere April 30th and it
was great.
We had a sold-out theater andpeople really thought it was.
It's very silly and farcical.
(40:24):
There's a lot of puns in it.
It's a knock on higher ed.
So you know if you can't makefun of yourself right I think
that's a great thing.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, I love, I want to watch it.
Is it streaming anywhere orwhat it'll?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
be available.
I'm getting, uh, I have to geta print made that can go to the
festivals called the dcp andonce that happens I'll be able
to send it to people to see.
But um, so, uh, you know thatjust started with myself and
this guy joking around with eachother.
So you know, you said somethingabout finishing stuff.
(40:57):
I am good at finishing stuff,like if I, if I say if I get an
idea, and I do collaborate a lot.
You'll see, uh, one of thebooks I sent you was a
collaboration on, uh, this poet,carlene michaels, and I.
We used to meet after thepandemic and give each other
(41:18):
prompts to write poems about theGreek gods, and so we
reimagined the Greek gods livingin a modern gated community.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And I saw that description in the book.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
That sounds interesting, here I go.
Shame with self-promotion.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Oh please, if we're not, we're all about that, yeah
we have no shame on out of theblue.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
No shame I sent you one of those too, but you know
that was a blast and we werefriends and we didn't expect
anything to happen with thatreally.
And then we published a coupleof them individually and then we
found a publisher who wanted it.
So, um, really it just cameabout generically, just a couple
of poet friends gettingtogether, because now people
(42:00):
will back out and go into coffeeshops again, and it wasn't the
lockdown pandemic anymore, youknow.
So something bad led tosomething good again, so I'm a
fortunate guy really.
I just but once I have a projectin my hands, I do want to
(42:21):
finish it.
I don't feel like I've done theidea justice just by playing
around with it.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I agree with that.
It's like when things come,inspirations come out of the
blue.
I mean, first of all you get asickness, a trauma out of the
blue and you try to use that tofirst of all inspire you to get
through it, inspire you to learnhow to deal with it, and you
learn things about love andconnection that are very
(42:48):
valuable in your whole humanexperience.
But then what I take away fromyou, kevin, is you've also
developed a real keen eye to seethose out of the blue things
coming.
It's like I think the morekeyed in you get to the
wavelength that is out of theblue, the more your life becomes
(43:08):
full of these wonderfulexperiences where you meet
somebody and through jokingabout the program begets an idea
for a movie.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, it's just, you know, you go home and write
about Zeus and I'll go home andwrite about Hera, and then all
of a sudden we have two poemsand then we start thinking, hey,
maybe this is something youknow.
And then it just grows out ofthat kind of generic chance
meeting of a friend and writingsomething down.
You know.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Anybody that's an artist really relates to this a
lot, but I do think that normalpeople, not just artists, have
definitely the ability to dothis, to be able to well.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
I've been called a lot of things never normal.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
No, I think once you become an artist of any kind,
you already you left that behind.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
You're going to be a little quirky compared to yeah,
I think I just really like, youknow, uh, I like collaborating
with other artists.
I mean, there are times I likenot collaborating, there's times
I just want to embracesomething on my own, uh.
But you know, uh, I think youlearn a lot by trying to work
(44:17):
with other people, even if it's,you know, even if it's
frustrating at times.
It's kind of like you learn theact of give and take.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
I think when I was younger, if I got an idea, it
was a little harder for me tocollaborate.
I felt like, oh no, you'regoing to hurt my idea.
But as I got older and wiser, Istarted to love collaboration
and really, when I tuned into itand became really loved it,
it's when first stage of my lifesuccess began to happen.
(44:49):
What I loved about any kind ofwriting I've ever done is this
all collaboration, so muchcollaboration, especially when
it comes to writing a screenplayor getting into something
that's going to be a performance.
It's a huge collaboration.
Everybody, even the actors,would collaborate.
You know they could change it,yeah.
Yeah, I don't say it that way.
You know what I mean.
So there's a clue I know it's.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
You know, years ago I would write something I'd want
to give it to somebody to readand I'd be thinking to myself
just tell me how much you likethis, you know.
And then, because my ego wasn'tready for all the rejection
that that comes with it, but youknow, now it's like I just say
be honest, tell me what youthink.
Right, right, collaboration isthat really?
Speaker 1 (45:31):
it's about, yeah, yeah, learning to understand
that a criticism is a negativething.
It's, it's a help, it's aid.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, and I think if you're going to be, you know,
open enough to let somebody reador look at or view something
that you've done, then you haveto allow them to be honest in
what they think about it and youdon't have to agree with it at
all.
I always say this to mystudents Look, if you're in a
writing workshop and and you getfive different opinions, well
(46:01):
you go home and do what you want.
You don't need to embraceeverything that everybody else
tells you, but be open enough tolisten to it, because it might
lead you to do something thatmakes it better, you know yeah,
I can expand your view, your,yeah, definitely.
People see them differently.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
We're not speaking the same language most of the
time.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, and plus we're so into it, right.
We're in that little closedspace in our mind about this is
my thing, right, and you have togive that thing away.
I mean, I'm always telling mystudents that you know, if you
write something and publish it,it's not in your business
anymore, it's what the readersthink about.
(46:45):
So someone could totallymisinterpret your poem or your
essay or your piece of fiction.
That's fair game.
That's what they got out of it,right.
So you really do have to tryand control the ego and just
tell it to go back where it camefrom and just be open enough to
(47:09):
kind of embrace differentopinions that you wouldn't come
up with on your own.
Like you said, it can nourishit, it can make it something
better, something different,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I mean, I've written a lot of songs in my life and to
me I look at a musicalinspiration as sort of something
coming out of the blue I usedto say out of the mist and it
would come more and more clearto me.
I might say out of the shadows.
Out of the shadows, but I likethat too.
But as it comes through, whenyou have stopped putting it on
(47:46):
paper or recording it orwhatever you're doing, yeah,
you're going to bring in extrapeople and they're going to help
solidify that, get it clearer,and you know when they're giving
the kind of the right feedback.
You can feel it Becauseactually what we're talking
about here is something that'scalled an idea.
I mean, it's intangible and it'stotally out there and where our
(48:08):
job as an artist or a writer ofany kind is to make that thing
something that other people cantouch, feel, see and hear, and
you hope it transforms.
It's transformative.
You hope that when they see orhear or read it or whatever,
that they connect with thewavelength of what you think the
message is.
But you have no control overthat and that's the baffling
(48:33):
part.
You know you really you get.
I used to hear all kinds ofinterpretations of songs and I
personally knew what they wereabout, but they weren't about
that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Well, that was my little joke about Ghost in the
Shadows.
I know that, I think that.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, jackie Kevin, we did a video with both Ghost
in the Shadows as one of oursongs.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I love that video.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah, so we just used it.
I I actually collaborated witha photographer from salem state
named stephanie young and uh, anold, revered person, jennifer
martelli, you know I knowjennifer yeah, well, jennifer is
a poet too, so we wrote poemsto stephanie's photographs.
And again, here I go, shamelesspromotion.
(49:17):
I'm gonna put a blinking signshameless promotion and this
book came out of it, but it wasa photography exhibit with 14
beautiful photographs of rivierabeach.
And then we, our poems, actedas kind of placards, like
information cards, next to thephotograph, and we just had it
in the gallery here at SalemState and it's going to be at
(49:46):
the Mass Poetry Festival in thePeabody Essex Museum on the 30th
May 30th.
It's again just another chancecollaboration.
Stephanie had showed me somephotographs and I said, wow, I
wonder what these would looklike with poems.
And I pulled Jennifer in andtwo years later we ended up with
a book and an exhibit.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
I'm just going back a little bit.
I'm glad that you collaboratedwith your wife to not
collaborate with that bacteria.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's well put.
Yeah, it is.
You know, I and again it isn'tjust I mean I trusted what my
wife was thinking and you know,because, left to my own devices,
I probably would have made thewrong decision and that's
emblematic of a lot of my life.
(50:34):
I would say that's a perfectway to describe Making the wrong
decision.
Left to my own thinking, rightwhen, when I've leaned on other
people to explore it and talkabout it and come up with a
decision collaboratively, I'veusually made a better decision.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And it's one key.
The key point of that Jackiepointed out was that you know it
was with your wife whom youtrusted.
You know that's an importantpart of collaboration to have
that full trust with each other,and when you're in that space,
anything's possible.
You'll complete the work.
I think Everything you do willbe completed to the best it can
(51:10):
be.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Or trust.
Respect like respect.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
First, Respect is even more important.
I think.
Well, I think you have to haveboth you definitely have to.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, I mean, if you don't, if you, if you don't
respect someone, it's hard totrust them right?
you're always thinking of whyyou don't respect them, yeah,
and that this information is notgoing to be what I need,
because I don't respect thisperson, right, you don't know
where it's coming from.
I mean mean, I remember when Iwas in that MFA program I was
still focused on fiction, butyou had to take a crossover
(51:41):
genre, so you had to take agenre in something else.
So I took poetry and this poetrest his soul Bill Zander.
I wrote this poem about beingon a train going to New York at
a crazy time in my life and heread that poem and he said this
poem's a keeper.
And I remember saying, wow,this guy's a pretty good poet.
(52:04):
He's telling me this poem is akeeper.
And that became a title poem forthe first book I ever published
.
I don't know if that would havehappened without him saying
that.
So I always remember that, asmuch as I'm trying to correct
student writing or the biggerpart of the job is encouraging
(52:25):
it.
Right, it's saying this is Ireally like what you're doing
here and maybe think aboutworking on this part of it.
But you know, because you neverknow what little piece of
encouragement can do to somebody, because you never know what a
little piece of encouragementcan do to somebody and just make
you feel kind of worthy andthat you're on the right track
and that you're doing somethingthat is working.
(52:47):
And sometimes it is just a kindword of encouragement more than
anything else that can keep yougoing.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Especially being at the start of something.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah.
It can be really fragile to bethere than anything else that
can keep you going, especiallybeing at the start of something.
Yeah, yeah, it can be reallyfragile to be there.
Yeah, I mean it can be dauntingto think about the whole
process.
But if you have one poem or onestory that someone says you
know what?
This is really good.
Then you can build on that, andI think that's what happened to
me.
It's like I had people alongthe way saying they liked what I
(53:21):
was doing and without that Imight have given up a long time
ago the takeaway from this forme I guess hopefully our
audience and uh is that youfirst of all.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
you already were developing collaboration skills
in your writing adventure, butthat key collaboration that day
in the emergency room, it's thereason we're talking right now.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yeah because a lot of it happened post that.
You know I can't be moregrateful than I am that it
happened the way it happened.
I don't wish it happening toanybody but you know it's scary
and it's frightening, but I'mjust so grateful that I was able
to kind of get lucky enough toget treated in time and gave me
(54:11):
time to do more work right, tohave more fun.
That's what we got from.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Kevin Keery.
It's an incredible body of workthat's getting better every day
, and I think I predict theJunkman book.
I think it's a great movie idea.
From our lips to God's ears.
God listens to me, right, god,that's a funny one oh.
Shut the F up.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
I've never heard that before.
What you never heard thatexpression?
No, well, that's because you'redealing with two old guys here.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
I'm always coming up with them.
She says where'd you get that?
No, but that's a funnyexpression, I like it yeah, I
think we could probably say thatwhat a great episode this has
been, kevin and um uh, thank youfor asking me to do this.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
I'm I'm really, uh, really touched that you thought
of me and uh, well, I'm thrilledyou're here.
Great to see you again.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Great to see you again just to let everybody know
, there'll be some great linksat the end of the podcast that
you can look up, get dive deepinto kevin's books and
everything like that and um, andwhen that mfa, the terminal
degree comes out, you got tomake sure you see it and I'm
sure if you get you know, get intouch with us, stay on this,
we'll.
We'll definitely update youwhen things like that come along
(55:31):
from our out of the bluepodcast site.
So thank you so much, kevin.
We so much appreciate you heretoday.
It really was a wonderful,wonderful episode, very
inspiring, and I mean I learneda lot too.
I mean I always learn, but Ilearned, I learned a lot and I
continue to learn from theseepisodes, especially with
someone like you and, yeah, I'mgoing to be calling you about
(55:53):
some stuff with regarding somebooks.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
That's right.
We have another collaboration.
We're collaborating onsomething.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
And speaking of getting things made into movies
and stuff, we're going to startexploring that very soon.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm ready to go.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
I definitely have some context out there we've got
to use.
Okay, at any rate, anybodylistening.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Smash that like button and hitthe subscribe button, because
every little bit helps and wecertainly need your loving help.
Thank you so much, jackie.
Thank you so much, kevin.
So much, bye-bye everybody.
(56:31):
Out of the Blue, the podcastHosted by me, vernon West,
co-hosted by Jacqueline West,edited by Joe Gallo, music and
(57:03):
logo by Vernon West III.
Have an Out of the Blue storyof your own you'd like to share?
Reach us at info atoutoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
Subscribe to Out of the Blue onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts,and on our website,
outoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
You can also check us out onPatreon for exclusive content.
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