August 19, 2025 • 47 mins
What if the anxiety, irritability, or sleepless nights you're experiencing aren't just "normal stress," but signs of trauma you're carrying? In this profound conversation with trauma expert Dr. Marti Loring, we uncover how trauma shapes our lives in ways most people never recognize.
Dr. Loring, a pioneering voice in trauma research and author of "Emotional Abuse: The Trauma and Treatment," shatters common misconceptions about trauma, revealing it's not just for war veterans or disaster survivors—it's something we all experience to varying degrees. "Trauma has often been called a normal reaction to an abnormal situation," she explains, offering listeners permission to recognize their struggles without shame.
The discussion takes unexpected turns as we explore how trauma manifests through hyper-vigilance, emotional numbing, avoidance, and even physical symptoms. Dr. Loring addresses how today's non-stop news cycle and pandemic experiences have created collective trauma, leaving many feeling helpless and disconnected from themselves. But rather than leaving listeners in despair, she offers practical, actionable strategies for reclaiming power: selectively engaging with causes that matter to you, finding community through in-person connections, and taking meaningful action.
Perhaps most touching is Dr. Loring's emphasis on self-kindness as the foundation for healing. "Be kind to yourself," becomes the mantra of our conversation—a simple yet profound reminder that healing begins with compassion for our own struggles. She provides listeners with a practical self-assessment checklist and encourages professional support through therapy or counseling.
Whether you're grappling with anxiety, feeling overwhelmed by world events, or simply seeking to understand yourself better, this episode offers both validation and hope. Finding meaning through helping others can transform trauma into purpose, and connection—to ourselves and each other—might be our most powerful medicine in troubled times.
Trauma Self-Assessment Checklist:
- How anxious are you and how often?
- How are you getting along with other people?
- Are you irritable or distrustful?
- Do you find yourself having trouble sleeping?
- Do you tend to react in an anxious way to other things?
- Are you feeling depressed and hopeless and helpless?
- Do you have so little energy?
- Do you have flashbacks to things in the past?
- Do thoughts and images intrude into your thinking so it’s hard to concentrate?
- Do you forget or ‘tune out’ on parts of your life, unable to remember?
Contact Dr. Marti Loring: mloring@earthlink.net
Out Of The Blue:
For more: outoftheblue-thepodcast.org
For exclusive content: patreon.com/podcastOOTB
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where
real people share powerfulstories of resilience and
transformation.
I'm your host, vernon West,joined by my daughter and
co-host, jackie West, our socialmedia manager, a professional
musician and Reiki healer, andthank you, as always, for
spending this time with us.
(00:43):
Don't forget to hit that likeand subscribe button, because it
truly helps get the word outthere.
Our very special guest today isDr Marty Lauren, a leading
trauma expert based in Atlantaand a pioneering voice on how
trauma, especially in today'spolitical and cultural climate,
shapes our lives in unseen ways.
(01:04):
She's a licensed clinicalsocial worker, psychotherapist
and author of Emotional Abuse,the Trauma and the Treatment, a
groundbreaking work thatredefined how we understand
emotional trauma.
Her expertise spans everythingfrom wartime wounds and natural
disasters to political coercionand the everyday trauma we often
(01:26):
carry in silence.
Dr Loring has developed atransformative model for healing
, helping people not justsurvive but reclaim their peace,
their voice and their power.
Let's dive in.
Good afternoon, dr Loring, andwelcome to Out of the Blue, the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And good afternoon to you as well.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So off we go.
Tell us all about that book andhow you came into this, really
how you came into this field.
Even I'm curious to know howyou launched yourself in this
direction.
Out of all the many directionsyou could have gone right, you
went for trauma.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I began seeing that a lot of individuals who were
experiencing family violence ora lot of anxiety seemed to be
struggling with trauma as well.
In fact, when individualsstrike back in family violence,
feel really uncomfortable afterexperiencing trauma, it's often
(02:24):
not because of having anyphysical abuse.
It's often because of some ofthe emotional issues that we
face in life.
So, in other words, it's notalways someone physically
abusing them or an event itself.
It's often the emotionalreaction to the event that can
cause someone to feel varioussymptoms of trauma and not even
(02:47):
necessarily know what it is, soit's as puzzling to them as it
is to their loved ones.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So how would people recognize they have trauma?
I mean, is that something easyto notice and what are the signs
?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
That's an excellent question.
One thing is something minorlike feeling irritable.
Someone may give you feedback.
You certainly seem irritablethese days and if you take a
good look at yourself, they maybe right.
But it's not because you harborany grudge toward them.
It's because of this feeling ofgrumbling anxiety which goes on
(03:25):
and on inside you.
Someone may forget some of whatcaused them the trauma in the
first place and actually haveperiods of time and parts of
what the traumatic event wasthat they don't even remember.
That's what trauma can do.
It can steal away our memoriesfor periods of time.
(03:48):
And there are other symptoms,and that could easily include
always feeling anxious and beingwhat they call hypervigilant.
So you may be sitting, stilltrying to relax, and all of a
sudden you hear a sound, a bump,or see someone whiz by and you
(04:09):
jump as if someone had hit youand look around.
It's being jumpy, hypervigilant.
Those are just some of the waysthat a person can wonder what's
wrong with me?
And it's not necessarilyanything wrong with you.
It's more what is happeningthat's causing me to have this
(04:30):
reaction.
Trauma has often been called anormal reaction to an abnormal
event, so we really shouldn'tblame ourselves for it.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So the hypervigilant and jumpy I mean.
There's a lot of people outthere that would probably say
that, yeah, that's normal for me, but is it normal?
It's not normal, is it?
People should not.
How would we get out of that?
Well, I guess, when we know thesymptoms, what's the way out of
them?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Treatment, talking to someone like yourself, or it's
always good to talk with acounselor or therapist.
Some people who seepsychiatrists even wind up
taking some medications.
Often, though, when a personhas come to realize that indeed,
they have trauma, it may betrauma.
It may be so big that it'scalled post-traumatic stress
(05:16):
disorder.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, that's the extreme version of trauma.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
The extreme version or even more extreme.
It can be complexpost-traumatic stress disorder
or PTSD.
That's people who aretraumatized as children.
They may have had any number ofoffenses that traumatize them
and then they grow to be adultsand they're still carrying like
a heavy knapsack, they're stillcarrying that trauma from
(05:43):
childhood.
So they may wind up, whenthey're traumatized as adults to
have the severe and complexPTSD, post-traumatic stress
disorder.
And I really shouldn't leave outany real important symptoms,
one of which is numbing.
You may see someone and theyjust seem so numb.
(06:03):
This is particularly importantin a court case.
The jury may look, say, well,this person doesn't seem to feel
at all badly about what theymay have had a part in doing,
not necessarily so.
They may feel so badly and soguilty and full of horror that
they just go numb.
(06:24):
It's a lack of affect orfeeling.
And you look at them and boy,you sure can't see it if it's
there.
But if someone asks them aquestion relating to how badly
they feel, they may just burstinto sobbing and not even be
able to stop.
So I should certainly remembernumbing as well as avoidance.
You know it's the hardest thingto get someone with
(06:48):
post-traumatic stress disorderor trauma into therapy.
I've gone to any number ofhomes in the past, like with
veterans or others.
They just don't want to comeout and get therapy because it
hurts to talk about the buddiesthey've seen killed in action or
other things, and they may feelbetter off just avoiding it
(07:08):
Because it still is down thererumbling away, maybe even
causing them stomach aches orheadaches.
But avoidance is a big hallmarkof trauma too.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Is something like that transferable?
Like, for example, my father.
He had been in the korean warand he was severely traumatized,
severely a lot of ptsd really.
He should tell me stories aboutthose traumas, traumatic
experiences, but as a kid I felttraumatized by hearing them
because they were.
They were really.
You know, someone died in thestory and there was death
(07:43):
involved.
And I'm maybe 12 here in thestory as he's crying on the bed
I'm saying why are you crying,dad?
Is it transferable in that wayfrom your parents?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
certainly.
I mean, I'm sure you loved yourdad you're a very kind and
loving person and your dad, sureit must have been very
heartbreaking for you and thento see him crying and you saw
his pain.
I think, certainly.
I think that's a very importantidea that at some of the
Holocaust victims, some of theirchildren now adult children
(08:16):
have talked about feelingtraumatized when their parents
repeat the experiences.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
That's very interesting and concerning in a
way, for a lot of us.
I definitely feel that I feelsome of those.
You know after effects youmentioned numbing being one
Don't people like?
For example, a lot of peopleturn to drugs.
A lot of those guys that comeout of the war, they end up on
heroin.
They end up numbing themselveswith chemicals, you know, with
(08:42):
substances.
They end up numbing themselveswith chemicals, you know, with
substances, and I, you know,I've I've seen that a lot with.
You know all substances.
People are using substances tonumb themselves and when they
finally come around and maybethrough a 12 step program or
whatever they, you know, theyuncover what it was and then
they start getting some healing.
But I mean, so many people areprobably walking around, don't
(09:09):
know this and don't onaddressing it, because it isn't
so obvious as maybe just havinga beer at the end of the night.
Maybe they're just having aglass of wine every night, maybe
it's just something veryinnocuous, but it's numbing them
, it's pushing down the feelings.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You are so right.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, and I'm wondering about the what do you
think about the pandemic?
I'm wondering about that.
I think that I talk about thiswith doctors and stuff and they
always they would agree that thepandemic has caused a lot of
definitely concern, becausethere's the people out there
don't even know that they wouldmaybe traumatized through that
(09:42):
experience.
It was very traumatic.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It was for so many reasons.
I lost my own sister in thepandemic.
She died of COVID and a lot ofpeople had very sad losses.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
My mother, oh my.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know exactly what I mean.
I'm so sorry too and manypeople felt helpless, like what
can I do for me to be safe andthe people I love?
And many did the COVID shotsand all, but still there's a
sense of helplessness.
And you know, sometimes whenpeople with trauma are feeling
(10:18):
that their numbing isn't workingbecause that's just a cover up,
just like drugs you so wiselymentioned Sometimes they'll have
an outburst and they'll wonderwhat just happened and they
didn't mean to.
They just kind of got angry allof a sudden because of the
trauma.
In one book I wrote, calledIntimate Coercion, recognition
and Recovery, it had to do withpeople in an intimate
(10:41):
relationship who felt pushedinto doing things but didn't
really know what was happening.
I feel like to recognize whatyou have going on, when it's
trauma that allows you torecover from it.
Like you mentioned yourwonderful program, which I have
watched some of and it's veryinspiring.
(11:01):
It's people who, I think, haverecognized their, the traumatic
event and then they want torecover in a way that's
meaningful and many of them wantto give to others, some of whom
aren't recognizing.
They say, well, let me help yourecognize what you went through
, because I've gone through it.
Here's how I've recovered.
Maybe you can find meaning inthis, because there's really
(11:24):
nothing better for trauma thanto find meaning where you can
help others.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Find meaning.
That's a great piece of advice.
Right there I'm thinking about,you know, I think about like
ever since podcasts have beengoing out and I encounter people
out there and I talked tosomeone that, like I remember
when we did the podcast about awoman with breast cancer and I
found her so inspiring and Iwanted every woman that I knew
(11:51):
who had dealt with that youshould see this, you'll love it.
But a few of them said I can'thandle it.
I don't think I can handle it.
I don't want to hear aboutsomeone else hurting.
And it took you know the onesthat were brave enough to listen
to that.
They all came back and said itwas very helpful, and so it was
even helpful to people like thesiblings or the children of that
(12:13):
person to hear that you know,oh, how wonderful.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And you were right, actually, that it probably would
have been helpful to everysingle woman you recommended it
for.
However, that issue ofavoidance when you have trauma
because there's such pain withtrauma and it's understandable
that one would want to push itaway and avoid it, but sometimes
the very thing that would helpthe most watching that inspiring
(12:40):
contest talking to a therapist,that inspiring contest talking
to a therapist they're stillavoiding it because, like with
drugs, they're avoiding the pain, which is certainly
understandable.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Right, right.
Oh, of course, I definitelyunderstood when a woman would
say that to me.
One woman was in tears tellingme that I'm not ready to do that
.
I completely understood and I,as I completely understood, and
I would never push the personany further.
I just mentioned it that youmight find it helpful.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yes, Perfect way to do it and I can understand that
you would do it that way becauseyou really empathize with
people.
I'm glad you gave them theopportunity and I'm so glad for
the people who are able to do it.
Maybe sometime you heard backfrom one or two of the others
saying you know, when youmentioned such and such, can I
(13:33):
listen to it now?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Sometimes people get back in touch with you afterward
and are able to go forth.
Yeah, that's true.
Actually, one of those ladiesdid finally listen to it, and
then she texted me back and saidhow wonderful it was oh, how
great and I'm so happy aboutthat.
You know, I mean, that's whatit's all about, really sure, um,
that helps my trauma.
Really, I'm probably doing itto help my own trauma right to
(13:53):
just to help others is a way toget out of your own pain.
Yes, my life, that's been sortof the theme of my life.
I mean, I played music for manyyears because I was in pain and
I and I was helping people feelbetter.
I played music for many yearsbecause I was in pain and I was
helping people feel better andthat made me feel better because
I was going through my father'ssituation and stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's so true.
That's one of the many reasonsyour podcast is so valuable
because it helps people see thatyou actually can often find
meaning in trauma.
You actually can often findmeaning in trauma.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
That's what I think it is.
I mean as bad as the pandemicwas, and I think we're going to
go on to other bad things thatare happening in our society
right now, as bad as they are.
I found that through Out of theBlue.
Maybe I've already thought this, maybe before I did Out of the
Blue, but everything is ateacher.
You know, pain is a teacher.
(14:45):
I mean, you can learn so muchfrom looking at what it is
that's bothering you, that'shurting you, and you know it
unfolds maybe a meaning thatgives you a larger purpose in
your life.
That's what it's done for me.
So I find that to be, you know,useful.
Pain is useful.
I don't want God to hear me saythat too loud, because I don't
(15:08):
want any more God, no, no, no,no, I've had enough.
Don't say that either, becauseyou know what I'm knocking on
wood.
I don't know why I do that.
Does God hear the wood louder,or something?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Why don't we knock on wood?
You have a marvelous sense ofhumor.
I think that helps with traumatoo.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Oh, definitely, yeah, I think so.
I think that my wife and Ilaugh a lot, you know, and
sensitive humor is essential toliving as far as I'm concerned.
Some of my best friends arecomedians, you know, and they're
very you know.
When we talk they would crackme up.
But comedians can be very sad,usually have very dark
(15:47):
experiences.
It's true that they're usingthe comedy to help, the same way
I'm using this podcast, so Iuse music to help people.
Helps you.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yes, and I think it inspires people too.
I think the fact that you're soopen about what this podcast
means to you and in helpingother people, I think that must
mean a lot to people who arefeeling hopeless, which is
another symptom of trauma,sometimes hopelessness.
I think that many would feel,oh gosh, listen to what he's
(16:22):
done Kind of inspired.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Gosh listen to what he's done, kind of inspired, I
hope so.
That's my hope.
I mean, this covers everythingwe're about really, because what
are we talking about really?
In a sense, we're talking aboutsurviving trauma, and it comes
in all shapes and sizes.
Sometimes it's, you know, andthis one here.
This is why I think it's soimportant their work, because
(16:46):
you're exposing some of thethings that I really wasn't
thinking about.
Now I'm thinking about, really,how the pandemic is traumatic.
Now we're also now moving on to,I think you know, the events
that happen like tragedies inthe news.
I don't know how people theyhave to numb themselves to it.
I think that's what's happeningwith the way the media is
(17:09):
handling the 24-7 news cycle,because now there isn't a, there
isn't a moment that they don'tcover something bad.
Because there's something bad.
It's a huge world.
Let's face it right.
Yes, Something bad happenedsomewhere, true, and in the news
business, if it bleeds, itleads.
That's how they get eyeballs bysaying something bad is going
(17:31):
on.
Everyone goes click, click,click.
What is this, you know?
So how do we deal with that?
We just have to tune it out.
Really, we have to stopwatching the news I don and we
just have to tune it out, really, we have to stop watching the
news.
I don't think that that'sreally.
Is that the only solution?
I don't think it is, thoughthat's the sort of that would be
.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Uh, I think I think there is a.
There's so much going on andit's really important to learn
how to effectively engage and to, like you know, we have our
computers.
We don't need to watch.
I don't want to exclude anybodyby naming any news platforms
but, like you, get to chooseyour news.
(18:08):
At this point, we have a lot ofchoice.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
We might not for a very long time considering some
things, but yeah, I just thinkthat that's kind of an older
paradigm to think that we don'thave any choice no, I think, in
terms of maybe the oldergeneration, who is not as savvy,
my age and older, whatever they, they basically, uh, are
(18:35):
married to the tv for their news.
They don't actually have notlearned to use the computer and
their phone, and I've tried toeducate certain people that I
know from that age group.
They just don't want to.
I'm watching Fox News, I'mwatching NBC and that's what I'm
going to do.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
I understand that it's easy.
It's a really chaotic world andwhat do you do when you're in a
lot of chaos?
You just want to be still youwant some can something
consistent.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I think, yeah, people you trust, perhaps, or the
newscasters, a form of somethingyou're used to and trust.
You know it's been.
Um, research has shown that ifyou do watch something that
induces trauma, over and overand over, it makes you a little
more traumatized each time thatyou watch it.
(19:27):
So I think that it may beuseful these days to make
choices for yourself, like howmany times are you going to
watch the news about the tragedyof the flooding in Texas, the
news about the tragedy of theflooding in Texas?
Or is there going to be a pointwhere you're going to say, well
(19:48):
, I've seen this several times.
I think I'm going to call theRed Cross or see what I can do
about this.
Nothing that would be moreuseful for helplessness or
hopelessness than to choose aplan of action.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Absolutely action.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I've heard've heard that.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yes, I heard that said many a few times actually,
that if you, you can know thesolution, but if you don't take
action, the action is how youget out of that it's not so
encouraged publicly.
You know, it's obfuscated onpurpose what would you say is
obfuscating it?
The media themselves?
Sure, yeah, I mean I think theyshould.
(20:26):
They want you coming back, sothey're going to find a way to
leave a cliffhanger of some kindin their report.
You know, come on, come backtomorrow to find out X, y, z.
You know, they just want tokeep you coming.
And then that applies now toalso the political climate, not
just American, but the world.
(20:47):
Now, that's also concerning too.
Do you think that's causing alot of trauma in the world?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yes, I do think so.
I'm writing a book about that.
At this time, it's not whichside you're on, or what you
believe or don't believe, orwhat your values are side you're
on, or what you believe ordon't believe, or what your
values are.
It's really everyone, I think,who's experiencing some, no
matter how small or how big,some sort of traumas.
There's so many changes, forexample, and losses, and one
(21:16):
grieves with losses which can betraumatic as well.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
How can we do?
What can we do to go?
In your book you have somepowerful solutions, I think.
I want to hear that.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I think one thing is we've got to control how much we
take in and how we take it in.
How much of the news are yougoing to watch?
And then I have just hundredsand hundreds of emails coming in
about the various things thatare going on in the world and
our country.
So I've selected fiveindividuals and groups where I
(21:53):
really like what they're doing.
I follow them, I read aboutthese five, I contribute
financially to them.
These five, I contributefinancially to them If they say
do this, like give a littlemoney to this particular
candidate, or that I'm likely todo that.
So that's a way I can focus andnot just be overwhelmed.
(22:14):
And a third thing I think isvaluable is if there's a group
that you like to go to.
Some of them have weeklymeetings, some monthly, some on
Zoom, some you go yourself.
I think that's a really niceway to feel a sense of community
, that you're being involved.
And any action that you canfind helps, takes away guilt on
(22:41):
our part.
Helps takes away guilt on ourpart, because when one sees
various people suffering indifferent ways, one tendencies
to feel helpless and guilty,even hopeless, which all can
lead to trauma, together oralone.
And I think to know.
These are three things that arereally important to me, three
areas, and here's how I'maddressing each one Gives one a
(23:04):
sense of accomplishment, a power, less helplessness, certainly
less guilt, because you'rereally working at doing things,
whether it's money or other ways, but you're giving I wrote down
donate, community and action.
Yes, really selecting.
Yes, Really selecting.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Oh, selective donations, yeah, three to five
groups of people and keep upwith them.
Right, that's a good one.
You see it on your email.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
This I'm going to read, and they will often guide
you.
Here's a candidate or here's anactivity, and since you've
selected them, it's likely to besomething you might want to do
on occasion.
So I think when you choosedonating that's a great word to
use You're donating of yourself,or your time or your money, and
(23:52):
then you don't feel quite sohelpless and hopeless and
traumatized because you're beingvery powerful really.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
You're empowering yourself.
You're taking your power back.
That's what you do, exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
And it's powerful.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Really, you're empowering yourself, you're
taking your power back, that'swhat you do exactly and it's
well set so it's aligned withyour values definitely yeah, you
find the right people, though,that you can do that with, you
know, and then then you tuneinto that and tune out all the
noise, maybe, and focus on those, those people that you actually
believe in their causes.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That's just so well said.
That's exactly it.
And then you have a sense ofyour own values, because trauma
can make us lose ourselves tosome extent and this reminds us,
oh, I really do value this andI'm doing such and such toward
it.
Just we feel a sense of who weare and what we're continuing to
do.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Right, right.
And then the act of getting ingroups, going to have meetings
with people that could be well.
There's 12-step groups, there'ssocial clubs.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
There's one group called In Town Atlanta Women
that I like, and they talk aboutpolitics these days.
Choose the area that you'remost concerned about, and then
they set up separate tables andat these tables you discuss what
you think can be done to helpand you meet very interesting
(25:14):
people, form friendships and soyou're not quite so isolated.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Oh yeah, so isolation definitely is something to not
it's really.
You know, I saw a study thatsaid that loneliness is climbing
.
Like it's like 33% of peoplethat the number was something
like that are lonely, and it'shard to fathom that with
(25:40):
everything out there, with thephone connecting everybody
instantly Facebook, Instagram,all the social medias how does
one get lonely with all that outthere?
But I see it happening and Idefinitely wonder about it.
How do we deal with that?
Go to those meetings, Go downto your house, Don't just live
online.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, it's really important.
Online can be very meaningful,no doubt about that.
But to be face-to-face and getto know another human being and
they show their interest in youand you talk together about
problem solving, it really doesdecrease loneliness, which can
lead to trauma and differenttypes of illnesses, types of
(26:24):
illnesses.
One research study showed thatpeople who were getting older
and who were very lonely diedearlier than those who were
getting older and were notlonely at all.
Well, maybe once in a while,but not as a pattern.
So we can have a longer life byinteracting with others.
And one also hears people whoare lonely talking about somatic
problems.
You know they have stomachaches or headaches or hard time
(26:47):
getting out of bed in themorning.
Loneliness is something in andof itself that can lead to a
great deal of sadness.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I am definitely sure that loneliness causes people to
die sooner, because I actuallysaw it firsthand when I was in
the hospital.
I spent too long in thehospital one time for my own
journey and I saw the ones whowere not doing well and they
were just lonely.
They didn't get visitors.
(27:16):
I would try to talk to them.
They didn't really want to talktoo much but if I got them out
of themselves I felt good.
But it made me want to do thispodcast.
It's one of the things thatdrove me to do this, because I
saw how vital it is for peopleto know they're not alone.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
That's why I think I chose the traumatic things.
I don't think everybody comeson as a trauma victim, because
sometimes people just realizethe powerlessness they have over
things that happen.
That's essentially, you knowwhat I mean.
That's essentially what Out ofthe Blue is about Our own, you
know personal powerlessness thatthere's just so much we can do
(27:56):
Like.
I love the serenity prayer toaccept the things I cannot
change, the courage to changethe things I can and the courage
to change the things I can andthe wisdom to know the
difference.
So that to me, was reallyepitomizes everything about it.
We have to keep the focus onour own self and work on that
(28:16):
understanding of our place inthe universe.
In order to be as vital, to beas helpful, I think we have to
help others.
I mean that's.
I think so many religions sayit but not many people realize
that is the key helping others,if you get, you really get you
out of yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Exactly, I think that's really true.
Interacting with helping othersworking on a cause.
All of a sudden you forgotabout that headache or sadness,
you know.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Right, it's brilliant .
Everything gets intoperspective.
I think that's the main thingperspective that one of the
worst aspects of loneliness is.
It puts your everything, blowseverything up, because you're
focusing on that stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
This sense of powerlessness also can be paired
with a sense of powerlessnessalso can be paired with a sense
of taking back your power, fromfeeling a loss of control and of
self loss of connection to selfthrough the.
(29:20):
I guess the ability tosurrender to powerlessness.
That kind of funnily enough,solidifies your power in
yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
It does, because you realize who you can actually
change is yourself.
If you can change your view andthe fact that you are now going
to donate and take those stepsthat Dr Loring is so wonderfully
outlining, that you reallybring that power back, because
(29:57):
you are now empowered to do whatyou really can do.
And you know that some of thatstuff's out of your control.
I mean it just is.
But what is out of our controlis whatever we focus on and get
to that meeting and donate tothat cause.
You know those are the thingsthat we can do something about.
I'll try anyway.
Feel good about that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yes, and I think what you're saying is so important,
both of you, the whole idea ofconnecting with ourselves.
We don't want anything to causeus to lose a connection to
ourselves.
I think sometimes it's fun tosit down and imagine different
parts of ourselves.
We all have different parts.
Maybe there's a brave part,there's how tender we are with
(30:38):
our dog and hopefully others.
The tender part.
There's the tender we are withour dog and hopefully others.
The tender part.
There's the frightened part andother kind of characters within
.
It's fun sometimes just to sitdown and have a meeting with all
of them and you know, see whatour values are and let each of
them speak.
And true, as you said, we maynot have control over something.
(31:02):
Speak.
And true, as you said, we maynot have control over something,
and yet we're so together andcoherent and a real sense of our
own identity.
And maybe go around the circleof all of our parts and find out
well, what are, what do we mostvalue about ourselves?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
because sometimes we get kind of down on ourselves
too back to one of the subjectsthat definitely I'm very curious
about, and I think would begood to impart this to our
listeners, is how can theyevaluate their own life?
What's a good way to checkthemselves, to see how?
What if they're suffering sometrauma?
(31:39):
First of all, and if they feelthey find, if they find that
they're checking off some boxesand yeah, I am numbing, I am
this now then the next stepwould be to identify what it was
.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, so recognize it .
I think going to a goodpsychiatrist, psychologist,
sociologist or clinical socialworkers like myself, a counselor
, and having a session where youtalk about yourself, when are
you in life, you know, are youstruggling with anything and if
(32:16):
so, what would you like to doabout it, To have a kind of a
second eye on you who might havesome very helpful ideas I think
that would be a wonderful thingto do.
As one thing, it's always goodto read about things.
I think watching your podcastis a lovely way for people I
(32:38):
noticed you said earlier yourpartners and you said those who
listen.
I think they probably feel likeyour partners in that you care
about them and how they feel andwhat they're going through
Listening to a podcast thataddresses their needs and others
.
I think it's nothing likegetting a good checkup, though.
I mean we go to the doctor toget a good checkup once or twice
(33:02):
a year.
If something hurts we may go toour primary care provider.
There's nothing crazy aboutgoing to anyone from a clinical
sociologist or social worker toa psychologist or psychiatrist.
In fact, it's pretty darn smart.
Just have an evaluation you know, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I completely agree with that.
I spoke to someone quite a lotand I stopped recently.
But I'm thinking of doing itagain Because you're right,
though you get with that person,that's when you take a
self-inventory have to goexactly and I like what you said
.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
I think it's not the easiest thing to find like a
compatible person, true for you,but I do think like starting
somewhere is is important.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah you're right, it's not easy to find someone
who's compatible for you.
But you're also right it's niceto start and you may go for a
while and decide you don't needto go at this point.
You may have other things thatyou're doing, which is fine also
.
Don't let me leave out pastorswho do counseling.
Some of them are wonderful too.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, they're counselors too.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
They can be, but it's sort of like taking our
emotional temperature, isn't it?
Or seeing, I mean there'strauma all over the place in our
world, in our country, and it'ssort of like taking our
emotional or our traumatemperature.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
What would you say?
The checklist is that peoplecould use for their own audit to
see about their trauma.
Like, say, I want to how farI'm traumatized?
I don't think I am, but whatwould I?
What would be the things I wantto put on my checklist?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
a wonderful idea.
How anxious are you and howoften?
Speaker 1 (34:46):
all right, are you hyper vigilant?
Anxiety um yes, anxiety um how,how?
Speaker 2 (34:48):
severe.
How are you getting along with?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Anxiety.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yes, anxiety, how severe.
How are you getting along withother people?
Are you irritable ordistrustful?
Do you find yourself havingtrouble sleeping?
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Oh, that's a good one .
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Oh yeah, make it hard to go to sleep and then you
wake up and it won't let you goback to sleep.
Won't stop talking to you.
Make it hard to go to sleep andthen you wake up and it won't
let you go back to sleep.
Won't stop talking to you.
Um, do you tend to react in ananxious way to other things?
Are you feeling depressed andhopeless and helpless?
Oh, it's like overreacting, sayto something exactly, it's a
(35:30):
big tell do you have so littleenergy?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Lack of energy.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Trauma just saps a person.
It's like taking the reverse ofa shot, takes energy out of you
.
And if you're thinking kind ofpessimistic and some people are
pessimistic true enough, butwith trauma a person doesn't
have a lot of hope and you knowyou miss, miss that feeling
(35:59):
hopeful is fun.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
You gotta have hope.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Oh my god man just seeing all of the, all of these,
I'm writing all of them downand I'm like, yeah, um, but I
also don't know if I'm justsupposing this, but I feel like
(36:21):
trauma is like the word sounds.
I mean, I feel like the word hassuch a range that like, yeah,
with my therapist we've beendoing inner child work and you
know, I learned aboutenvironmental trauma, which is
literally just because I'm achild, like observing my
(36:46):
environment and deciding thingsand creating belief systems, so
like nobody in particular didanything, but I absorbed it a
particular way.
And then I live out theseprograms in my life and as I'm
older, I'm like, oh, where didthat reaction come from?
And oh, like, why am I scaredin this way when I I've done
(37:09):
this before or something youknow, like this before, or
something you know, like I'mjust learning about all of this
stuff?
And, um, that trauma is, as aword is, I guess, stigmatized,
like it's only reserved forveterans, but it's like I
believe it's every single personyeah, I think you're right
(37:31):
about that.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, that's very insightful.
I think two things to rememberabout trauma is it doesn't mean
you're crazy.
Trauma is a normal reaction toan abnormal situation.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Oh my goodness, that's really good A normal
reaction to an abnormalsituation, Correct, perfect.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Which I guess to like a two year old.
A lot of things are abnormal.
They haven't experienced thembefore.
True, you know?
Or maybe, like you know, Ineeded a hug at a time where
nobody was around.
Uh-huh, you know.
So the situation was abnormal.
Uh-huh, Would that be like?
(38:11):
Interpreted as like an abnormalSure A person can feel rejected
.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, and then if?
If you're a child, you wonderif there's something wrong with
you that would cause people toreject you yep, yep, boy, oh boy
, yeah so oh, this is a sessionso basically, I hope everyone's
getting the same out of it thatI am.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Take your notes, write them down, so if you are
ticking off any of these things.
So now the next step is to tryto think back.
When did this all begin Like?
I don't think I really feltthis kind of trauma until the
pandemic hit.
That really started my traumaand it made me.
(38:54):
Those were the symptoms startedbeginning right around then I
was saying, oh no, this is not.
This is all the news, news,media blowing it up, nothing big
, but it turned into somethingbig and that kind of traumatized
me because my instinct wastelling me that it was not going
to go anywhere and my instinctwas so wrong.
And when your instinct's wrong,I think that kind of screws you
(39:15):
up because it's your inner,inner self feeling things.
It's usually right.
My instinct's been very righton for me, but, um, it wasn't
right.
About that one I was totallywrong.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I think you had a lot of company, and there are lots
of people who felt that way.
And then there was the shock,you know, when it turned out to
be so big and so awful.
Yeah, so that's kind of you toshare that example.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
So what do you think, though?
I mean?
Now, we're dealing with a lotof stuff going on in the world
societal influences, you know,regarding the politics and all
that.
I know you're writing that booknow.
So when you, when you find thatyou, you are suffering from
these things, I guess the stepsyou would mention earlier, which
is to you know, donate yourtime, your money on people that
(40:08):
you think are on the right sideof the truth, and then go into
meetings with other people.
And then, lastly, the last onewas action to do things, to make
actions, actions on yourself,actions in the world around you.
So is that what we say?
Is that not the cure, but atleast a bit of good medicine?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, I think it is good medicine.
Being in community with otherswho understand, which you create
with your podcast, is lovely.
And maybe the most importantthing of all is be kind to
yourself, because what you saidabout your reaction to the
pandemic and everything youshould have seen it coming and
(40:53):
not have thought it wouldn't beso big.
You know, I felt kind towardsyou when you said that, because
so many people went through thatand felt the same way you did.
I think it's so important thatwe're kind to ourselves, because
we won't always do the rightthing.
We sometimes won't want towatch the news, which is not a
good long-lasting way to solvethings.
(41:16):
If we numb out and we're numband we don't watch the news,
then we feel guilty.
I wonder what happened that?
You know I don't know about it.
How can I help with it?
So maybe the overarchingumbrella is we really need to be
kind to ourselves and aroundpeople who are kind to us.
I think your podcast helps withthat too, the ones I've seen.
(41:38):
You're so kind to the peopleand then they're often kind to
others.
It's like a cascading waterfallwhere the kindness is going
down, and that's so importantright now.
There isn't as much kindness asI wish there would be.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
I guess that's a huge one right there.
Kindness, yeah, yeah, it is sobig.
Be kind to yourself forstarters, because you can't
really be kind to anyone ifyou're not kind to yourself.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
I mean if there's anything I've learned in my I
guess in my relationship, it'sthat I do a lot of projecting
and so if I'm not kind, that'sprobably showing me that I'm
just not kind to me right now,beautifully said that's true
(42:26):
yeah, and I'd rather not beunkind to others, you know, sure
, but it that that's a veryclear, like easy choice to look
at, you know, to lead you backto what it actually is, and
because you know when you like.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
For me, if I react a hyper, you know, overreact for
example, because the world isbothering me and I'm not
realizing that and and Ioverreact to something small,
well then that's not being kindto myself.
And then I, you know, and I paya price for that.
It does cost a price and ittakes away that's the serenity
(43:06):
that comes from.
You know working, you knowyourself as being kind.
I mean that's so important.
I just I don't think I couldstress that enough.
I mean it's.
Nothing makes me more upset waswhen I don't feel like I was
kind, like even if somebody doessomething wrong to me, like
righteous indignation is thebiggest danger for me, because
(43:31):
I'll not.
I'll do something, somethingthat I feel bad about.
I might tell that person thetruth, or I used to feel proud
of myself because I don't splithairs, but that's not always the
kind thing to do.
The kind thing to do issometimes just let it go.
People, you don't know what'sgoing on in that person's life.
They could be going throughsomething, anything, or maybe
(43:51):
went through something years ago.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
You're not that's why I mean it's likely they are
it's very likely that they are.
It's like, so clear you know,they look at it that's funny.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
It's very likely that they are so really cool, isn't?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
it wonderful again I commented earlier y'all have
such great, such great sense ofhumor where we can look at
things and laugh.
I think that's just sowonderful because there's so
much sad around us now to beable to laugh and even see
wisdom in what we're laughing atand share it with each other.
(44:28):
I think that's very special.
I'd like to thank you for thattoday.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Going forward.
We have the basic idea of thechecklist, of finding out if
you're even suffering fromtrauma, and I would say that,
generally speaking, probably youare.
If you're even thinking aboutany of these things.
That's the first step findingout if you are suffering from
some form of trauma.
You're on the spectrum, as Jackwas saying.
(44:54):
The word trauma covers a widespectrum and if you're on that
spectrum, you should be aware ofit and that awareness is going
to help you.
And then, going forward, youget counseling.
There were three things donate,meeting, community and actions.
Those are the actual goingforward things we should do if
(45:15):
you think you are suffering fromsome form of trauma.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yes, yes and community.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And definitely getting in touch with a good
psychologist, psychotherapist,social worker you know all those
all the above of you mentionedand then find groups.
There are groups out there youcan meet with right.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Did I miss anything that we should tell people?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
that would be no, not a.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Action items for them .
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Best.
Of good fortune to them all.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
That's right.
Best of good fortune to you all, and I think we could end on
that note.
Really Best of good fortune toyou all.
Thank you, dr Marty, for thisamazing journey.
Fortune to you all.
Thank you, dr marty, for thisamazing journey into
understanding trauma and and thebeginnings of learning how to
handle it, deal with it firstrecognizing it and then handling
(46:05):
it, and I cannot thank youenough.
I'm really, really gratefulthat you came to us from out of
the blue.
Really, thank you to be on ourshow because we're going to see
you more, as much as you werewilling to do it.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Wonderful.
Thank you both so very much.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yes, and remember those immortal words that Marty
said be kind or say it.
You say it Be kind to yourself.
Say it one more time Please bekind to yourself.
Love it, love it.
That's where we're going to endright now.
Thank you so much, marty, andhave a great day.
And you guys listening you too,and remember to hit that like
(46:43):
and subscribe, and we'll justkeep getting that word out there
and we're going to bringkindness back in vogue and love
and happiness back in fashion.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thank you.
I love that.
Out of the Blue, the podcastHosted by me, vernon West,
co-hosted by Jacqueline West,edited by Joe Gallo Music and
(47:20):
logo by Vernon West III.
Have an Out of the Blue storyof your own you'd like to share?
Reach us at info atoutoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
Subscribe to Out of the Blue onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts,and on our website,
outoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
You can also check us out onPatreon for exclusive content.
Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where
real people share powerfulstories of resilience and
transformation.
I'm your host, vernon West,joined by my daughter and
co-host, jackie West, our socialmedia manager, a professional
musician and Reiki healer, andthank you, as always, for
spending this time with us.
(00:43):
Don't forget to hit that likeand subscribe button, because it
truly helps get the word outthere.
Our very special guest today isDr Marty Lauren, a leading
trauma expert based in Atlantaand a pioneering voice on how
trauma, especially in today'spolitical and cultural climate,
shapes our lives in unseen ways.
(01:04):
She's a licensed clinicalsocial worker, psychotherapist
and author of Emotional Abuse,the Trauma and the Treatment, a
groundbreaking work thatredefined how we understand
emotional trauma.
Her expertise spans everythingfrom wartime wounds and natural
disasters to political coercionand the everyday trauma we often
(01:26):
carry in silence.
Dr Loring has developed atransformative model for healing
, helping people not justsurvive but reclaim their peace,
their voice and their power.
Let's dive in.
Good afternoon, dr Loring, andwelcome to Out of the Blue, the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And good afternoon to you as well.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So off we go.
Tell us all about that book andhow you came into this, really
how you came into this field.
Even I'm curious to know howyou launched yourself in this
direction.
Out of all the many directionsyou could have gone right, you
went for trauma.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I began seeing that a lot of individuals who were
experiencing family violence ora lot of anxiety seemed to be
struggling with trauma as well.
In fact, when individualsstrike back in family violence,
feel really uncomfortable afterexperiencing trauma, it's often
(02:24):
not because of having anyphysical abuse.
It's often because of some ofthe emotional issues that we
face in life.
So, in other words, it's notalways someone physically
abusing them or an event itself.
It's often the emotionalreaction to the event that can
cause someone to feel varioussymptoms of trauma and not even
(02:47):
necessarily know what it is, soit's as puzzling to them as it
is to their loved ones.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So how would people recognize they have trauma?
I mean, is that something easyto notice and what are the signs
?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
That's an excellent question.
One thing is something minorlike feeling irritable.
Someone may give you feedback.
You certainly seem irritablethese days and if you take a
good look at yourself, they maybe right.
But it's not because you harborany grudge toward them.
It's because of this feeling ofgrumbling anxiety which goes on
(03:25):
and on inside you.
Someone may forget some of whatcaused them the trauma in the
first place and actually haveperiods of time and parts of
what the traumatic event wasthat they don't even remember.
That's what trauma can do.
It can steal away our memoriesfor periods of time.
(03:48):
And there are other symptoms,and that could easily include
always feeling anxious and beingwhat they call hypervigilant.
So you may be sitting, stilltrying to relax, and all of a
sudden you hear a sound, a bump,or see someone whiz by and you
(04:09):
jump as if someone had hit youand look around.
It's being jumpy, hypervigilant.
Those are just some of the waysthat a person can wonder what's
wrong with me?
And it's not necessarilyanything wrong with you.
It's more what is happeningthat's causing me to have this
(04:30):
reaction.
Trauma has often been called anormal reaction to an abnormal
event, so we really shouldn'tblame ourselves for it.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So the hypervigilant and jumpy I mean.
There's a lot of people outthere that would probably say
that, yeah, that's normal for me, but is it normal?
It's not normal, is it?
People should not.
How would we get out of that?
Well, I guess, when we know thesymptoms, what's the way out of
them?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Treatment, talking to someone like yourself, or it's
always good to talk with acounselor or therapist.
Some people who seepsychiatrists even wind up
taking some medications.
Often, though, when a personhas come to realize that indeed,
they have trauma, it may betrauma.
It may be so big that it'scalled post-traumatic stress
(05:16):
disorder.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, that's the extreme version of trauma.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
The extreme version or even more extreme.
It can be complexpost-traumatic stress disorder
or PTSD.
That's people who aretraumatized as children.
They may have had any number ofoffenses that traumatize them
and then they grow to be adultsand they're still carrying like
a heavy knapsack, they're stillcarrying that trauma from
(05:43):
childhood.
So they may wind up, whenthey're traumatized as adults to
have the severe and complexPTSD, post-traumatic stress
disorder.
And I really shouldn't leave outany real important symptoms,
one of which is numbing.
You may see someone and theyjust seem so numb.
(06:03):
This is particularly importantin a court case.
The jury may look, say, well,this person doesn't seem to feel
at all badly about what theymay have had a part in doing,
not necessarily so.
They may feel so badly and soguilty and full of horror that
they just go numb.
(06:24):
It's a lack of affect orfeeling.
And you look at them and boy,you sure can't see it if it's
there.
But if someone asks them aquestion relating to how badly
they feel, they may just burstinto sobbing and not even be
able to stop.
So I should certainly remembernumbing as well as avoidance.
You know it's the hardest thingto get someone with
(06:48):
post-traumatic stress disorderor trauma into therapy.
I've gone to any number ofhomes in the past, like with
veterans or others.
They just don't want to comeout and get therapy because it
hurts to talk about the buddiesthey've seen killed in action or
other things, and they may feelbetter off just avoiding it
(07:08):
Because it still is down thererumbling away, maybe even
causing them stomach aches orheadaches.
But avoidance is a big hallmarkof trauma too.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Is something like that transferable?
Like, for example, my father.
He had been in the korean warand he was severely traumatized,
severely a lot of ptsd really.
He should tell me stories aboutthose traumas, traumatic
experiences, but as a kid I felttraumatized by hearing them
because they were.
They were really.
You know, someone died in thestory and there was death
(07:43):
involved.
And I'm maybe 12 here in thestory as he's crying on the bed
I'm saying why are you crying,dad?
Is it transferable in that wayfrom your parents?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
certainly.
I mean, I'm sure you loved yourdad you're a very kind and
loving person and your dad, sureit must have been very
heartbreaking for you and thento see him crying and you saw
his pain.
I think, certainly.
I think that's a very importantidea that at some of the
Holocaust victims, some of theirchildren now adult children
(08:16):
have talked about feelingtraumatized when their parents
repeat the experiences.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
That's very interesting and concerning in a
way, for a lot of us.
I definitely feel that I feelsome of those.
You know after effects youmentioned numbing being one
Don't people like?
For example, a lot of peopleturn to drugs.
A lot of those guys that comeout of the war, they end up on
heroin.
They end up numbing themselveswith chemicals, you know, with
(08:42):
substances.
They end up numbing themselveswith chemicals, you know, with
substances, and I, you know,I've I've seen that a lot with.
You know all substances.
People are using substances tonumb themselves and when they
finally come around and maybethrough a 12 step program or
whatever they, you know, theyuncover what it was and then
they start getting some healing.
But I mean, so many people areprobably walking around, don't
(09:09):
know this and don't onaddressing it, because it isn't
so obvious as maybe just havinga beer at the end of the night.
Maybe they're just having aglass of wine every night, maybe
it's just something veryinnocuous, but it's numbing them
, it's pushing down the feelings.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You are so right.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, and I'm wondering about the what do you
think about the pandemic?
I'm wondering about that.
I think that I talk about thiswith doctors and stuff and they
always they would agree that thepandemic has caused a lot of
definitely concern, becausethere's the people out there
don't even know that they wouldmaybe traumatized through that
(09:42):
experience.
It was very traumatic.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It was for so many reasons.
I lost my own sister in thepandemic.
She died of COVID and a lot ofpeople had very sad losses.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
My mother, oh my.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know exactly what I mean.
I'm so sorry too and manypeople felt helpless, like what
can I do for me to be safe andthe people I love?
And many did the COVID shotsand all, but still there's a
sense of helplessness.
And you know, sometimes whenpeople with trauma are feeling
(10:18):
that their numbing isn't workingbecause that's just a cover up,
just like drugs you so wiselymentioned Sometimes they'll have
an outburst and they'll wonderwhat just happened and they
didn't mean to.
They just kind of got angry allof a sudden because of the
trauma.
In one book I wrote, calledIntimate Coercion, recognition
and Recovery, it had to do withpeople in an intimate
(10:41):
relationship who felt pushedinto doing things but didn't
really know what was happening.
I feel like to recognize whatyou have going on, when it's
trauma that allows you torecover from it.
Like you mentioned yourwonderful program, which I have
watched some of and it's veryinspiring.
(11:01):
It's people who, I think, haverecognized their, the traumatic
event and then they want torecover in a way that's
meaningful and many of them wantto give to others, some of whom
aren't recognizing.
They say, well, let me help yourecognize what you went through
, because I've gone through it.
Here's how I've recovered.
Maybe you can find meaning inthis, because there's really
(11:24):
nothing better for trauma thanto find meaning where you can
help others.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Find meaning.
That's a great piece of advice.
Right there I'm thinking about,you know, I think about like
ever since podcasts have beengoing out and I encounter people
out there and I talked tosomeone that, like I remember
when we did the podcast about awoman with breast cancer and I
found her so inspiring and Iwanted every woman that I knew
(11:51):
who had dealt with that youshould see this, you'll love it.
But a few of them said I can'thandle it.
I don't think I can handle it.
I don't want to hear aboutsomeone else hurting.
And it took you know the onesthat were brave enough to listen
to that.
They all came back and said itwas very helpful, and so it was
even helpful to people like thesiblings or the children of that
(12:13):
person to hear that you know,oh, how wonderful.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And you were right, actually, that it probably would
have been helpful to everysingle woman you recommended it
for.
However, that issue ofavoidance when you have trauma
because there's such pain withtrauma and it's understandable
that one would want to push itaway and avoid it, but sometimes
the very thing that would helpthe most watching that inspiring
(12:40):
contest talking to a therapist,that inspiring contest talking
to a therapist they're stillavoiding it because, like with
drugs, they're avoiding the pain, which is certainly
understandable.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Right, right.
Oh, of course, I definitelyunderstood when a woman would
say that to me.
One woman was in tears tellingme that I'm not ready to do that
.
I completely understood and I,as I completely understood, and
I would never push the personany further.
I just mentioned it that youmight find it helpful.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yes, Perfect way to do it and I can understand that
you would do it that way becauseyou really empathize with
people.
I'm glad you gave them theopportunity and I'm so glad for
the people who are able to do it.
Maybe sometime you heard backfrom one or two of the others
saying you know, when youmentioned such and such, can I
(13:33):
listen to it now?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Sometimes people get back in touch with you afterward
and are able to go forth.
Yeah, that's true.
Actually, one of those ladiesdid finally listen to it, and
then she texted me back and saidhow wonderful it was oh, how
great and I'm so happy aboutthat.
You know, I mean, that's whatit's all about, really sure, um,
that helps my trauma.
Really, I'm probably doing itto help my own trauma right to
(13:53):
just to help others is a way toget out of your own pain.
Yes, my life, that's been sortof the theme of my life.
I mean, I played music for manyyears because I was in pain and
I and I was helping people feelbetter.
I played music for many yearsbecause I was in pain and I was
helping people feel better andthat made me feel better because
I was going through my father'ssituation and stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's so true.
That's one of the many reasonsyour podcast is so valuable
because it helps people see thatyou actually can often find
meaning in trauma.
You actually can often findmeaning in trauma.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
That's what I think it is.
I mean as bad as the pandemicwas, and I think we're going to
go on to other bad things thatare happening in our society
right now, as bad as they are.
I found that through Out of theBlue.
Maybe I've already thought this, maybe before I did Out of the
Blue, but everything is ateacher.
You know, pain is a teacher.
(14:45):
I mean, you can learn so muchfrom looking at what it is
that's bothering you, that'shurting you, and you know it
unfolds maybe a meaning thatgives you a larger purpose in
your life.
That's what it's done for me.
So I find that to be, you know,useful.
Pain is useful.
I don't want God to hear me saythat too loud, because I don't
(15:08):
want any more God, no, no, no,no, I've had enough.
Don't say that either, becauseyou know what I'm knocking on
wood.
I don't know why I do that.
Does God hear the wood louder,or something?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Why don't we knock on wood?
You have a marvelous sense ofhumor.
I think that helps with traumatoo.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Oh, definitely, yeah, I think so.
I think that my wife and Ilaugh a lot, you know, and
sensitive humor is essential toliving as far as I'm concerned.
Some of my best friends arecomedians, you know, and they're
very you know.
When we talk they would crackme up.
But comedians can be very sad,usually have very dark
(15:47):
experiences.
It's true that they're usingthe comedy to help, the same way
I'm using this podcast, so Iuse music to help people.
Helps you.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yes, and I think it inspires people too.
I think the fact that you're soopen about what this podcast
means to you and in helpingother people, I think that must
mean a lot to people who arefeeling hopeless, which is
another symptom of trauma,sometimes hopelessness.
I think that many would feel,oh gosh, listen to what he's
(16:22):
done Kind of inspired.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Gosh listen to what he's done, kind of inspired, I
hope so.
That's my hope.
I mean, this covers everythingwe're about really, because what
are we talking about really?
In a sense, we're talking aboutsurviving trauma, and it comes
in all shapes and sizes.
Sometimes it's, you know, andthis one here.
This is why I think it's soimportant their work, because
(16:46):
you're exposing some of thethings that I really wasn't
thinking about.
Now I'm thinking about, really,how the pandemic is traumatic.
Now we're also now moving on to,I think you know, the events
that happen like tragedies inthe news.
I don't know how people theyhave to numb themselves to it.
I think that's what's happeningwith the way the media is
(17:09):
handling the 24-7 news cycle,because now there isn't a, there
isn't a moment that they don'tcover something bad.
Because there's something bad.
It's a huge world.
Let's face it right.
Yes, Something bad happenedsomewhere, true, and in the news
business, if it bleeds, itleads.
That's how they get eyeballs bysaying something bad is going
(17:31):
on.
Everyone goes click, click,click.
What is this, you know?
So how do we deal with that?
We just have to tune it out.
Really, we have to stopwatching the news I don and we
just have to tune it out, really, we have to stop watching the
news.
I don't think that that'sreally.
Is that the only solution?
I don't think it is, thoughthat's the sort of that would be
.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Uh, I think I think there is a.
There's so much going on andit's really important to learn
how to effectively engage and to, like you know, we have our
computers.
We don't need to watch.
I don't want to exclude anybodyby naming any news platforms
but, like you, get to chooseyour news.
(18:08):
At this point, we have a lot ofchoice.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
We might not for a very long time considering some
things, but yeah, I just thinkthat that's kind of an older
paradigm to think that we don'thave any choice no, I think, in
terms of maybe the oldergeneration, who is not as savvy,
my age and older, whatever they, they basically, uh, are
(18:35):
married to the tv for their news.
They don't actually have notlearned to use the computer and
their phone, and I've tried toeducate certain people that I
know from that age group.
They just don't want to.
I'm watching Fox News, I'mwatching NBC and that's what I'm
going to do.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
I understand that it's easy.
It's a really chaotic world andwhat do you do when you're in a
lot of chaos?
You just want to be still youwant some can something
consistent.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I think, yeah, people you trust, perhaps, or the
newscasters, a form of somethingyou're used to and trust.
You know it's been.
Um, research has shown that ifyou do watch something that
induces trauma, over and overand over, it makes you a little
more traumatized each time thatyou watch it.
(19:27):
So I think that it may beuseful these days to make
choices for yourself, like howmany times are you going to
watch the news about the tragedyof the flooding in Texas, the
news about the tragedy of theflooding in Texas?
Or is there going to be a pointwhere you're going to say, well
(19:48):
, I've seen this several times.
I think I'm going to call theRed Cross or see what I can do
about this.
Nothing that would be moreuseful for helplessness or
hopelessness than to choose aplan of action.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Absolutely action.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I've heard've heard that.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yes, I heard that said many a few times actually,
that if you, you can know thesolution, but if you don't take
action, the action is how youget out of that it's not so
encouraged publicly.
You know, it's obfuscated onpurpose what would you say is
obfuscating it?
The media themselves?
Sure, yeah, I mean I think theyshould.
(20:26):
They want you coming back, sothey're going to find a way to
leave a cliffhanger of some kindin their report.
You know, come on, come backtomorrow to find out X, y, z.
You know, they just want tokeep you coming.
And then that applies now toalso the political climate, not
just American, but the world.
(20:47):
Now, that's also concerning too.
Do you think that's causing alot of trauma in the world?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yes, I do think so.
I'm writing a book about that.
At this time, it's not whichside you're on, or what you
believe or don't believe, orwhat your values are side you're
on, or what you believe ordon't believe, or what your
values are.
It's really everyone, I think,who's experiencing some, no
matter how small or how big,some sort of traumas.
There's so many changes, forexample, and losses, and one
(21:16):
grieves with losses which can betraumatic as well.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
How can we do?
What can we do to go?
In your book you have somepowerful solutions, I think.
I want to hear that.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I think one thing is we've got to control how much we
take in and how we take it in.
How much of the news are yougoing to watch?
And then I have just hundredsand hundreds of emails coming in
about the various things thatare going on in the world and
our country.
So I've selected fiveindividuals and groups where I
(21:53):
really like what they're doing.
I follow them, I read aboutthese five, I contribute
financially to them.
These five, I contributefinancially to them If they say
do this, like give a littlemoney to this particular
candidate, or that I'm likely todo that.
So that's a way I can focus andnot just be overwhelmed.
(22:14):
And a third thing I think isvaluable is if there's a group
that you like to go to.
Some of them have weeklymeetings, some monthly, some on
Zoom, some you go yourself.
I think that's a really niceway to feel a sense of community
, that you're being involved.
And any action that you canfind helps, takes away guilt on
(22:41):
our part.
Helps takes away guilt on ourpart, because when one sees
various people suffering indifferent ways, one tendencies
to feel helpless and guilty,even hopeless, which all can
lead to trauma, together oralone.
And I think to know.
These are three things that arereally important to me, three
areas, and here's how I'maddressing each one Gives one a
(23:04):
sense of accomplishment, a power, less helplessness, certainly
less guilt, because you'rereally working at doing things,
whether it's money or other ways, but you're giving I wrote down
donate, community and action.
Yes, really selecting.
Yes, Really selecting.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Oh, selective donations, yeah, three to five
groups of people and keep upwith them.
Right, that's a good one.
You see it on your email.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
This I'm going to read, and they will often guide
you.
Here's a candidate or here's anactivity, and since you've
selected them, it's likely to besomething you might want to do
on occasion.
So I think when you choosedonating that's a great word to
use You're donating of yourself,or your time or your money, and
(23:52):
then you don't feel quite sohelpless and hopeless and
traumatized because you're beingvery powerful really.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
You're empowering yourself.
You're taking your power back.
That's what you do, exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
And it's powerful.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Really, you're empowering yourself, you're
taking your power back, that'swhat you do exactly and it's
well set so it's aligned withyour values definitely yeah, you
find the right people, though,that you can do that with, you
know, and then then you tuneinto that and tune out all the
noise, maybe, and focus on those, those people that you actually
believe in their causes.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That's just so well said.
That's exactly it.
And then you have a sense ofyour own values, because trauma
can make us lose ourselves tosome extent and this reminds us,
oh, I really do value this andI'm doing such and such toward
it.
Just we feel a sense of who weare and what we're continuing to
do.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Right, right.
And then the act of getting ingroups, going to have meetings
with people that could be well.
There's 12-step groups, there'ssocial clubs.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
There's one group called In Town Atlanta Women
that I like, and they talk aboutpolitics these days.
Choose the area that you'remost concerned about, and then
they set up separate tables andat these tables you discuss what
you think can be done to helpand you meet very interesting
(25:14):
people, form friendships and soyou're not quite so isolated.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Oh yeah, so isolation definitely is something to not
it's really.
You know, I saw a study thatsaid that loneliness is climbing
.
Like it's like 33% of peoplethat the number was something
like that are lonely, and it'shard to fathom that with
(25:40):
everything out there, with thephone connecting everybody
instantly Facebook, Instagram,all the social medias how does
one get lonely with all that outthere?
But I see it happening and Idefinitely wonder about it.
How do we deal with that?
Go to those meetings, Go downto your house, Don't just live
online.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, it's really important.
Online can be very meaningful,no doubt about that.
But to be face-to-face and getto know another human being and
they show their interest in youand you talk together about
problem solving, it really doesdecrease loneliness, which can
lead to trauma and differenttypes of illnesses, types of
(26:24):
illnesses.
One research study showed thatpeople who were getting older
and who were very lonely diedearlier than those who were
getting older and were notlonely at all.
Well, maybe once in a while,but not as a pattern.
So we can have a longer life byinteracting with others.
And one also hears people whoare lonely talking about somatic
problems.
You know they have stomachaches or headaches or hard time
(26:47):
getting out of bed in themorning.
Loneliness is something in andof itself that can lead to a
great deal of sadness.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I am definitely sure that loneliness causes people to
die sooner, because I actuallysaw it firsthand when I was in
the hospital.
I spent too long in thehospital one time for my own
journey and I saw the ones whowere not doing well and they
were just lonely.
They didn't get visitors.
(27:16):
I would try to talk to them.
They didn't really want to talktoo much but if I got them out
of themselves I felt good.
But it made me want to do thispodcast.
It's one of the things thatdrove me to do this, because I
saw how vital it is for peopleto know they're not alone.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
That's why I think I chose the traumatic things.
I don't think everybody comeson as a trauma victim, because
sometimes people just realizethe powerlessness they have over
things that happen.
That's essentially, you knowwhat I mean.
That's essentially what Out ofthe Blue is about Our own, you
know personal powerlessness thatthere's just so much we can do
(27:56):
Like.
I love the serenity prayer toaccept the things I cannot
change, the courage to changethe things I can and the courage
to change the things I can andthe wisdom to know the
difference.
So that to me, was reallyepitomizes everything about it.
We have to keep the focus onour own self and work on that
(28:16):
understanding of our place inthe universe.
In order to be as vital, to beas helpful, I think we have to
help others.
I mean that's.
I think so many religions sayit but not many people realize
that is the key helping others,if you get, you really get you
out of yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Exactly, I think that's really true.
Interacting with helping othersworking on a cause.
All of a sudden you forgotabout that headache or sadness,
you know.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Right, it's brilliant .
Everything gets intoperspective.
I think that's the main thingperspective that one of the
worst aspects of loneliness is.
It puts your everything, blowseverything up, because you're
focusing on that stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
This sense of powerlessness also can be paired
with a sense of powerlessnessalso can be paired with a sense
of taking back your power, fromfeeling a loss of control and of
self loss of connection to selfthrough the.
(29:20):
I guess the ability tosurrender to powerlessness.
That kind of funnily enough,solidifies your power in
yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
It does, because you realize who you can actually
change is yourself.
If you can change your view andthe fact that you are now going
to donate and take those stepsthat Dr Loring is so wonderfully
outlining, that you reallybring that power back, because
(29:57):
you are now empowered to do whatyou really can do.
And you know that some of thatstuff's out of your control.
I mean it just is.
But what is out of our controlis whatever we focus on and get
to that meeting and donate tothat cause.
You know those are the thingsthat we can do something about.
I'll try anyway.
Feel good about that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yes, and I think what you're saying is so important,
both of you, the whole idea ofconnecting with ourselves.
We don't want anything to causeus to lose a connection to
ourselves.
I think sometimes it's fun tosit down and imagine different
parts of ourselves.
We all have different parts.
Maybe there's a brave part,there's how tender we are with
(30:38):
our dog and hopefully others.
The tender part.
There's the tender we are withour dog and hopefully others.
The tender part.
There's the frightened part andother kind of characters within
.
It's fun sometimes just to sitdown and have a meeting with all
of them and you know, see whatour values are and let each of
them speak.
And true, as you said, we maynot have control over something.
(31:02):
Speak.
And true, as you said, we maynot have control over something,
and yet we're so together andcoherent and a real sense of our
own identity.
And maybe go around the circleof all of our parts and find out
well, what are, what do we mostvalue about ourselves?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
because sometimes we get kind of down on ourselves
too back to one of the subjectsthat definitely I'm very curious
about, and I think would begood to impart this to our
listeners, is how can theyevaluate their own life?
What's a good way to checkthemselves, to see how?
What if they're suffering sometrauma?
(31:39):
First of all, and if they feelthey find, if they find that
they're checking off some boxesand yeah, I am numbing, I am
this now then the next stepwould be to identify what it was
.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, so recognize it .
I think going to a goodpsychiatrist, psychologist,
sociologist or clinical socialworkers like myself, a counselor
, and having a session where youtalk about yourself, when are
you in life, you know, are youstruggling with anything and if
(32:16):
so, what would you like to doabout it, To have a kind of a
second eye on you who might havesome very helpful ideas I think
that would be a wonderful thingto do.
As one thing, it's always goodto read about things.
I think watching your podcastis a lovely way for people I
(32:38):
noticed you said earlier yourpartners and you said those who
listen.
I think they probably feel likeyour partners in that you care
about them and how they feel andwhat they're going through
Listening to a podcast thataddresses their needs and others
.
I think it's nothing likegetting a good checkup, though.
I mean we go to the doctor toget a good checkup once or twice
(33:02):
a year.
If something hurts we may go toour primary care provider.
There's nothing crazy aboutgoing to anyone from a clinical
sociologist or social worker toa psychologist or psychiatrist.
In fact, it's pretty darn smart.
Just have an evaluation you know, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I completely agree with that.
I spoke to someone quite a lotand I stopped recently.
But I'm thinking of doing itagain Because you're right,
though you get with that person,that's when you take a
self-inventory have to goexactly and I like what you said
.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
I think it's not the easiest thing to find like a
compatible person, true for you,but I do think like starting
somewhere is is important.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah you're right, it's not easy to find someone
who's compatible for you.
But you're also right it's niceto start and you may go for a
while and decide you don't needto go at this point.
You may have other things thatyou're doing, which is fine also
.
Don't let me leave out pastorswho do counseling.
Some of them are wonderful too.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, they're counselors too.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
They can be, but it's sort of like taking our
emotional temperature, isn't it?
Or seeing, I mean there'strauma all over the place in our
world, in our country, and it'ssort of like taking our
emotional or our traumatemperature.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
What would you say?
The checklist is that peoplecould use for their own audit to
see about their trauma.
Like, say, I want to how farI'm traumatized?
I don't think I am, but whatwould I?
What would be the things I wantto put on my checklist?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
a wonderful idea.
How anxious are you and howoften?
Speaker 1 (34:46):
all right, are you hyper vigilant?
Anxiety um yes, anxiety um how,how?
Speaker 2 (34:48):
severe.
How are you getting along with?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Anxiety.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yes, anxiety, how severe.
How are you getting along withother people?
Are you irritable ordistrustful?
Do you find yourself havingtrouble sleeping?
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Oh, that's a good one .
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Oh yeah, make it hard to go to sleep and then you
wake up and it won't let you goback to sleep.
Won't stop talking to you.
Make it hard to go to sleep andthen you wake up and it won't
let you go back to sleep.
Won't stop talking to you.
Um, do you tend to react in ananxious way to other things?
Are you feeling depressed andhopeless and helpless?
Oh, it's like overreacting, sayto something exactly, it's a
(35:30):
big tell do you have so littleenergy?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Lack of energy.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Trauma just saps a person.
It's like taking the reverse ofa shot, takes energy out of you
.
And if you're thinking kind ofpessimistic and some people are
pessimistic true enough, butwith trauma a person doesn't
have a lot of hope and you knowyou miss, miss that feeling
(35:59):
hopeful is fun.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
You gotta have hope.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Oh my god man just seeing all of the, all of these,
I'm writing all of them downand I'm like, yeah, um, but I
also don't know if I'm justsupposing this, but I feel like
(36:21):
trauma is like the word sounds.
I mean, I feel like the word hassuch a range that like, yeah,
with my therapist we've beendoing inner child work and you
know, I learned aboutenvironmental trauma, which is
literally just because I'm achild, like observing my
(36:46):
environment and deciding thingsand creating belief systems, so
like nobody in particular didanything, but I absorbed it a
particular way.
And then I live out theseprograms in my life and as I'm
older, I'm like, oh, where didthat reaction come from?
And oh, like, why am I scaredin this way when I I've done
(37:09):
this before or something youknow, like this before, or
something you know, like I'mjust learning about all of this
stuff?
And, um, that trauma is, as aword is, I guess, stigmatized,
like it's only reserved forveterans, but it's like I
believe it's every single personyeah, I think you're right
(37:31):
about that.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, that's very insightful.
I think two things to rememberabout trauma is it doesn't mean
you're crazy.
Trauma is a normal reaction toan abnormal situation.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Oh my goodness, that's really good A normal
reaction to an abnormalsituation, Correct, perfect.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Which I guess to like a two year old.
A lot of things are abnormal.
They haven't experienced thembefore.
True, you know?
Or maybe, like you know, Ineeded a hug at a time where
nobody was around.
Uh-huh, you know.
So the situation was abnormal.
Uh-huh, Would that be like?
(38:11):
Interpreted as like an abnormalSure A person can feel rejected
.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, and then if?
If you're a child, you wonderif there's something wrong with
you that would cause people toreject you yep, yep, boy, oh boy
, yeah so oh, this is a sessionso basically, I hope everyone's
getting the same out of it thatI am.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Take your notes, write them down, so if you are
ticking off any of these things.
So now the next step is to tryto think back.
When did this all begin Like?
I don't think I really feltthis kind of trauma until the
pandemic hit.
That really started my traumaand it made me.
(38:54):
Those were the symptoms startedbeginning right around then I
was saying, oh no, this is not.
This is all the news, news,media blowing it up, nothing big
, but it turned into somethingbig and that kind of traumatized
me because my instinct wastelling me that it was not going
to go anywhere and my instinctwas so wrong.
And when your instinct's wrong,I think that kind of screws you
(39:15):
up because it's your inner,inner self feeling things.
It's usually right.
My instinct's been very righton for me, but, um, it wasn't
right.
About that one I was totallywrong.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I think you had a lot of company, and there are lots
of people who felt that way.
And then there was the shock,you know, when it turned out to
be so big and so awful.
Yeah, so that's kind of you toshare that example.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
So what do you think, though?
I mean?
Now, we're dealing with a lotof stuff going on in the world
societal influences, you know,regarding the politics and all
that.
I know you're writing that booknow.
So when you, when you find thatyou, you are suffering from
these things, I guess the stepsyou would mention earlier, which
is to you know, donate yourtime, your money on people that
(40:08):
you think are on the right sideof the truth, and then go into
meetings with other people.
And then, lastly, the last onewas action to do things, to make
actions, actions on yourself,actions in the world around you.
So is that what we say?
Is that not the cure, but atleast a bit of good medicine?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, I think it is good medicine.
Being in community with otherswho understand, which you create
with your podcast, is lovely.
And maybe the most importantthing of all is be kind to
yourself, because what you saidabout your reaction to the
pandemic and everything youshould have seen it coming and
(40:53):
not have thought it wouldn't beso big.
You know, I felt kind towardsyou when you said that, because
so many people went through thatand felt the same way you did.
I think it's so important thatwe're kind to ourselves, because
we won't always do the rightthing.
We sometimes won't want towatch the news, which is not a
good long-lasting way to solvethings.
(41:16):
If we numb out and we're numband we don't watch the news,
then we feel guilty.
I wonder what happened that?
You know I don't know about it.
How can I help with it?
So maybe the overarchingumbrella is we really need to be
kind to ourselves and aroundpeople who are kind to us.
I think your podcast helps withthat too, the ones I've seen.
(41:38):
You're so kind to the peopleand then they're often kind to
others.
It's like a cascading waterfallwhere the kindness is going
down, and that's so importantright now.
There isn't as much kindness asI wish there would be.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
I guess that's a huge one right there.
Kindness, yeah, yeah, it is sobig.
Be kind to yourself forstarters, because you can't
really be kind to anyone ifyou're not kind to yourself.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
I mean if there's anything I've learned in my I
guess in my relationship, it'sthat I do a lot of projecting
and so if I'm not kind, that'sprobably showing me that I'm
just not kind to me right now,beautifully said that's true
(42:26):
yeah, and I'd rather not beunkind to others, you know, sure
, but it that that's a veryclear, like easy choice to look
at, you know, to lead you backto what it actually is, and
because you know when you like.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
For me, if I react a hyper, you know, overreact for
example, because the world isbothering me and I'm not
realizing that and and Ioverreact to something small,
well then that's not being kindto myself.
And then I, you know, and I paya price for that.
It does cost a price and ittakes away that's the serenity
(43:06):
that comes from.
You know working, you knowyourself as being kind.
I mean that's so important.
I just I don't think I couldstress that enough.
I mean it's.
Nothing makes me more upset waswhen I don't feel like I was
kind, like even if somebody doessomething wrong to me, like
righteous indignation is thebiggest danger for me, because
(43:31):
I'll not.
I'll do something, somethingthat I feel bad about.
I might tell that person thetruth, or I used to feel proud
of myself because I don't splithairs, but that's not always the
kind thing to do.
The kind thing to do issometimes just let it go.
People, you don't know what'sgoing on in that person's life.
They could be going throughsomething, anything, or maybe
(43:51):
went through something years ago.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
You're not that's why I mean it's likely they are
it's very likely that they are.
It's like, so clear you know,they look at it that's funny.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
It's very likely that they are so really cool, isn't?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
it wonderful again I commented earlier y'all have
such great, such great sense ofhumor where we can look at
things and laugh.
I think that's just sowonderful because there's so
much sad around us now to beable to laugh and even see
wisdom in what we're laughing atand share it with each other.
(44:28):
I think that's very special.
I'd like to thank you for thattoday.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Going forward.
We have the basic idea of thechecklist, of finding out if
you're even suffering fromtrauma, and I would say that,
generally speaking, probably youare.
If you're even thinking aboutany of these things.
That's the first step findingout if you are suffering from
some form of trauma.
You're on the spectrum, as Jackwas saying.
(44:54):
The word trauma covers a widespectrum and if you're on that
spectrum, you should be aware ofit and that awareness is going
to help you.
And then, going forward, youget counseling.
There were three things donate,meeting, community and actions.
Those are the actual goingforward things we should do if
(45:15):
you think you are suffering fromsome form of trauma.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yes, yes and community.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And definitely getting in touch with a good
psychologist, psychotherapist,social worker you know all those
all the above of you mentionedand then find groups.
There are groups out there youcan meet with right.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Did I miss anything that we should tell people?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
that would be no, not a.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Action items for them .
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Best.
Of good fortune to them all.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
That's right.
Best of good fortune to you all, and I think we could end on
that note.
Really Best of good fortune toyou all.
Thank you, dr Marty, for thisamazing journey.
Fortune to you all.
Thank you, dr marty, for thisamazing journey into
understanding trauma and and thebeginnings of learning how to
handle it, deal with it firstrecognizing it and then handling
(46:05):
it, and I cannot thank youenough.
I'm really, really gratefulthat you came to us from out of
the blue.
Really, thank you to be on ourshow because we're going to see
you more, as much as you werewilling to do it.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Wonderful.
Thank you both so very much.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yes, and remember those immortal words that Marty
said be kind or say it.
You say it Be kind to yourself.
Say it one more time Please bekind to yourself.
Love it, love it.
That's where we're going to endright now.
Thank you so much, marty, andhave a great day.
And you guys listening you too,and remember to hit that like
(46:43):
and subscribe, and we'll justkeep getting that word out there
and we're going to bringkindness back in vogue and love
and happiness back in fashion.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thank you.
I love that.
Out of the Blue, the podcastHosted by me, vernon West,
co-hosted by Jacqueline West,edited by Joe Gallo Music and
(47:20):
logo by Vernon West III.
Have an Out of the Blue storyof your own you'd like to share?
Reach us at info atoutoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
Subscribe to Out of the Blue onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts,and on our website,
outoftheblue-thepodcastorg.
You can also check us out onPatreon for exclusive content.
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