Learning from each other and overcoming assumptions with Hamish Curry | Ep 32

Listen as Mike interviews Hamish Curry, Educator, enabler, and collaborator, on everything from the Design Thinking Process and the place of post-its to overcoming tokenism to authentically develop new intercultural relationships. 

00:00:20    Meet our guest - Hamish Curry
00:08:12    Design thinking for good learning
00:10:50    The mindset, the skillset, the toolset
00:12:54    From concept to implementation
00:17:11    Change is not wholesale
00:20:12    Local environment and learning design
00:26:39    Prejudice in education
00:32:25    Taylor Mali - What Do Teachers Make
00:33:40    The Great Resignation & learning from each other
00:37:41    Cultural responsiveness - where to start?
00:40:00    Otto Sharma - The four types of listening
00:42:48    Tokenism and the development of new intercultural relationships
00:50:01    Losing my mojo - Hamish's blog post
00:56:02    The next step at Cool Australia
01:00:10    The industrialised model of education

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:05):
You're listening to the outclassed podcast exploring
Excellence in Teaching tech andleadership.

Mike Reading (00:16):
All right, so welcome back to the class
podcast. It's great to haveHamish curry with me today.
Hamish, we go back a little wayI was looking on Twitter. I
remember sitting in Melbourneand down there doing some some
professional development onGoogle, I believe, just as
Google was starting to come out,and schools were starting to get
interested. And I'd find fromSydney down in Melbourne and had

(00:38):
one of those rare nights where Ididn't have anything on and I
remember just putting onTwitter, my note like, hey,
Melbourne, if anyone wants tocatch up, let us know. And then
I got a DM from you. And say,Hey, I'd love to catch up. And
you were working in the library?
Not a school library, the publiclibrary. Yeah, she was at the
city library that you were in atthe time. That's the Yeah, the
Victorian State Library. Yeah.

(01:00):
Yeah.

Hamish Curry (01:02):
That's a good memory, Mike. When that totally
sounds like me back in thosedays, networking like crazy.
Yeah, yeah, that's

Mike Reading (01:09):
all I remember catching up with you. Just
having a drink after work oneday, and just hearing about some
of the cool things you are doingin thinking. I've, to be honest,
I've been pretty much in the inthe education space, and not
really connected in the, likepublic library space. But to be
honest, it seems like you're oneof the first people that ever
talked to me about how librariescould be something other than

(01:31):
just a collection of books forpeople to come and read. So

Hamish Curry (01:35):
yeah, well, and it's interesting, like you look
back on it now, and what peoplethought was going to happen to
libraries, and what has actuallyhappened to libraries, you know,
those that really embracetechnology and didn't say Google
as the enemy, but also didn'ttry and be the bookshop have
actually done really well. And Iguess that was my brief coming

(01:57):
into the state library. I mean,I came straight out of teach
being a teacher in school, I'dlead a united City Campus
program in Melbourne. So I kindof cut my teeth on really
pushing, learning for teenagersin really creative ways. And so
when I came into the library,it's like, how do we change, you
know, what is one of the oldestpublic libraries in Australia to

(02:19):
kind of modernize a bit. And soI started to bring in like video
games and, and he films and, andI started to join up. What I've
always been interested ineducation, which is, it's not
just about the school community,the teachers, the school
leaders, and kids, it's allthese other businesses and
industries that actually havesomething to share. And so

(02:42):
bringing in, for example, peoplefrom the game industry, or the
film industry, or designers, andpeople actually, a lot of that
time, a lot of the co workingspaces were were going growing,
particularly have Australia orhave Melbourne at that point.
And so bringing teachers intocontact with that wider world of

(03:04):
networks and tools was soexciting. And I actually
remember around that time, oneof the things that we kicked off
was called the Vic PLN. So theVictorian Professional Learning
Network, which started as kindof a, it was a hashtag, which is
still going I looked at it, it'sstill going after all these

(03:25):
years. And we also create anonline course to help teachers
learn about one of the top, like20 tools they should be using,
you know. And then we alsostarted some physical networks,
like bringing teachers in tojust talk about how is how is
technology? And how is pedagogyevolving with what's happening
in the world. And it was such aan amazing time. And I think one

(03:49):
of the things that came out ofthat was a lot of really
interesting relationships andpleading with yourself that have
lasted the years are those thathave always been looking at the
edge. And that kept me going aswell. Like I just I just, I get
bored by routine. And Iconstantly want to look at
Alright, is that better? Andwhere's the next interesting

(04:09):
thing come or Oh, that's reallyshiny over there. Not that I not
that I follow too many shinyleads and get exhausted, but
really looking for the missingpieces that will make a
difference to education. That'swhat kept me going.

Mike Reading (04:21):
Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think
schools, maybe some of theschools are starting to go down
that path and they're thinkingthe answer is just a makerspace.
Or we'll put some cold beanbagsin a corner and maybe Chuck an
Xbox up there or something. Andthen you know, we're digitizing
the library but there's so muchopportunity in that library

(04:41):
space for them to lead a digitalpedagogy in a sense, right
because they they they hold somuch knowledge and content and
and so on even remember showinglibrarians initially Google
Books and how to take all theISBN and put it into your own
little Google Books scenario tohave the students searching for
the Google Book. So in on Googlerather than the catalog in,

Hamish Curry (05:03):
yeah, well, all that stuff you, you suddenly,
like Google library suddenly hada really, really even more
relevant role to talk aboutlike, so how do we use Google
Scholar or, you know, I gotinterested in things like Google
ngram, which is still goingthankfully, they haven't, you
know, case, I love that idea oflike, visualizing words from
books and all the stuff thattech could do that suddenly

(05:26):
connected to people that hadreally deep knowledge of how
information worked. And, youknow, libraries, libraries, some
schools got rid of thatlibrarian thought, Oh, we've got
good, we don't need libraries.
But actually, it was theopposite. Because libraries
became the hub, the school, theywere the makerspace, they were
the information space. And I wasalways advocating for libraries
to just envision themselves ashaving a much more pivotal role.

(05:48):
And I still think I remember Iactually gave a keynote at edgy
tackle a number of years ago,but my whole talk was about,
it's not a library inside aschool, what if it was a school
inside a library. So the wholeidea of redesign the way
information and learning andaccess works, where age is
blurred, interests are aligned.

(06:12):
And information flows are muchmore based around passion,
synergy momentum. And they'rethe things actually, when it
comes to design, that you canmake education even better than
it was. And that's the thingthat keeps me going.

Mike Reading (06:30):
And it's interesting to like that whole
connection to community piecefor a school library is very
important as well. So one of ourIT trainers, Joe, he found a way
to connect the school librarywith the public library. So when
the students are searching, notjust a school library, they can
be actually searching the publiclibrary database and have those
books come down to the school,and he's just trying to find

(06:52):
ways to make those. Thoseconnections and libraries are
always trying to find ways tostay relevant.

Hamish Curry (06:59):
Oh, yeah. Well, in the age of co working, I mean,
kind of like libraries were theoriginal co working environment.
Right, you know, so it isinteresting that, you know, if
you sit still others will justinnovate around you. So
someone's like, saying, whyshould all this co working exist
when we have libraries? Youknow, libraries, aren't the kind

(07:19):
of the Shoosh environment thatpeople suspect so. So yeah, it's
it's been a really interestingtransition. And I've enjoyed the
journey of watching educationevolve. I mean, there's some
elements about school thathaven't changed, but but I think
we're beginning to either livewith it or start to bend the
rules a bit more.

Mike Reading (07:38):
Yeah. So on that, so you went from in libraries to
working for no rush for a numberof years. So I think, what did
you say? Three, four years?

Hamish Curry (07:46):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that was very
much the moving into kind of thedesign thinking for learning.
And I got very much into designthinking while I was at the
library, starting to see it as aspace that, you know, the days
of Tim Brown and IDEO, evolving,that it was going to be huge.
And when I came into nature, Ididn't really know much about

(08:07):
designing, but I quicklyrealized that, as a teacher
always interested in how wedesign learning differently, and
how do we find a better processthat design thinking was just
made for, you know, really goodlearning. So bringing the
critical and the creativethinking worlds together. And
one of the other reallyinteresting things from that

(08:28):
four years with no, Tosh washaving the opportunity to well
live out of a suitcase, not thatthat's as glamorous as everyone
thinks, you know, that, youknow, but going to visit so many
schools around Australia andinternationally, like I went to
China, Japan, Germany, Egypt'sNew Zealand, Singapore, and it

(08:54):
just showed me lots of thingsabout how schools and education
systems around the world areoften in alignment around what
they're trying to change. It'sjust they're often dealing with
different constraints. And thesame would go if I was working
with a school in Perth or aschool in Brisbane, if you can
understand the constraints ofyour school, they're often quite
unique. And I used to say thatyour schools are like a

(09:17):
fingerprint. Every school isslightly different. Its culture
is different, its learningenvironment is different. And if
you can understand that, thenyou can start to innovate rather
than these kind of, oh, youknow, I say that High Tech High
is doing that, then we should doit or it's the cookie cutter
model. And education is notalways been an effective one,

(09:38):
which is why I think curriculumis a tough one to scale. And it
has to be customized at the atthe school level.

Mike Reading (09:46):
Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite quotes is from
Dillon Williams, where he sayseverything will work somewhere,
but not everything workseverywhere. So you need to ask,
why is this working? And sothat's one of the things we talk
a lot to school leaders about isthat you can Don't take
somebody's program, you can takethe principle. But you can't
take the program because evenwe've found principals who are

(10:07):
very successful in one school,and they leave. And they're
like, I'm just going to take mysuitcase and implement that in
my new school and it fails. Andthey sit there. And they wonder
why. And it's because I feltunderstand that they were
looking at the unique context.
And they built somethinguniquely for that. So it's
always interesting to me when wego to big tech conferences, and
people talk about their schooland their programs and the

(10:29):
things that they're doing. Andwe all get inspired and want to
come back and drive that samesort of change in our schools.
And we wonder why it doesn'twork. It's around that, that,
that design, like that designthinking process, where it's
very much customized to theschool?

Hamish Curry (10:44):
Yeah. Well, and it's a good reminder, right?
Like the idea that wait aminute, it no trash, we talk
about those three layers, themindset, the skill set, and the
toolset. And that's, it's adecreasing focus, like, so
everyone goes to the techconference, right? You know, so
it looks like zoom is the nextbig thing, you know, and so but
that's just a tool set. Like ifyou don't have the right mindset

(11:06):
around why we're using it, howis it going to help our
community? And do we have theright skills, just start using
it in creative ways, then thetool is, is like a, you know,
it's an add on. And at themoment, you know, there are so
many tools for everything, it'snot, if you know what your
problem, if you can reallydefine your problem, then there

(11:27):
will probably be a tool thatwill help you get most of the
way there are a combination oftools, not the other way around.
So we've got to be very carefulof the of the quick fix. And the
same was true in some of theprojects I worked on at no
charge around looking at schooldesign. So you know, looking at
master plans and the developmentof new school architecture, same

(11:48):
principle, but but sometimesphenomenally more expensive, you
know, building more classroomsor, or creating or designing a
new school has as much in itabout the mindset and culture as
it does about the final tool setof the build. And that's the
last thing you worry about. So,you know, when people come up

(12:09):
with the Master Plan, the firstthing they want to do is I'll
let's go and visit all theseamazing schools. And the work
that I was doing was actuallyyou know, that's that's, like,
maybe halfway through theprocess. Because until you can
get your own mindset and what'swho who is your school? What do
they need? What are you tryingto create? What's the vision,

(12:30):
then when you go into anotherschool or another learning
environment, you'll then be ableto, I used to say, you can read
the room? So literally, you canread the rigor, right? Well,
that's not going to suit ourpedagogy or not. That's, that's
not us, you know, whereas if youjust start with the tools, you
Oh, I like those chairs. Oh, Ilove these, you know, green
screens, and and you just getdistracted by the by the

(12:53):
peripheral stuff.

Mike Reading (12:54):
Yeah. Yeah. So in those programs, were you working
with schools from concept toimplementation? Because one of
the reason I ask is one of thethings I see so much is that
leaders will go off and they'lldo a design thinking program or
a course and they'll walk awaywith these wonderful hexagons,
or colored post it notes. Thatwas probably about the need for

(13:16):
change. And then you go back in,you see them six or 12 months
later, and they haven't done adamn thing about it. Like,
somewhere there's this missingstep between inspiration and
actual perspiration and gettinggetting the work done. And yeah,
that's,

Hamish Curry (13:31):
that's so true, Mike. And look, it does come
down to commitment. It comesdown to understanding that
change requires a lot ofpatience and perseverance, and
actually requires leadership,something that I think, you
know, without pointing fingers,I think leadership is hugely,
hugely important in drivingchange. And not just leadership,

(13:56):
as in I will you're theprincipal or the CEO, or the the
executive director. I often usedto borrow a phrase, and I still
do a phrase from Will Richardsonhe talks about leader shift,
which is the other who are theother leaders that have an
opportunity to come forward, youknow, middle managers, school,
school, school students, youknow, who are the leaders, we

(14:18):
can discover through thisprocess and give them a chance
to shine. And then that's thething where schools go, it's not
just or the school principalsare realizing it's not just us.
Like we've got this reallycapable group of people in our
school. That includes thestudents, the students aren't
just there to risk be thereceivers of learning. They are

(14:38):
co designers of that learningsomething that we see happening
more and more now. But evenfive, six years ago, it wasn't
really a big thing. And thereweren't many people really doing
it. Well.

Mike Reading (14:54):
Yeah. So if I'm a principal and I've been to her,
like a design thing, I've beenthrough that process I'd like I
get it. I know my score needs tochange. I know that there's
areas of improvement. But like,I'm just not getting it done
like, have you found? Like, whatwould you say to a principal
like me? Who's Who's reallystruggling in that space around

(15:16):
the actual implementation ofthese ideas? Was there one sort
of thing? Like, is there onepiece of advice? Or that you
would normally go to a principaland say, Listen, just, if you
can make this domino fall, thenyou'll start to see some
momentum? Or was it really caseby case?

Hamish Curry (15:32):
Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's a
interesting one. Mike, I guessit is a little bit case by case
because sometimes I think aboutNo, so what was the genesis of
that idea? Where did it comefrom? Like, what if it was just
you pushing that barrier, thenyeah, that's, that's going to be
hard. Because you're, you're,then you're, you're, you know,
charisma and conviction carry somuch of the responsibility

(15:55):
versus, you know, a project thatI once worked in, in in Perth
and WA, where it was a schoolmaster planning project. And one
of my biggest challenges in thetable of school leaders that I
was working with was, was thehead of the maths department,
because he'd been teaching for35 years, and it was, you know,

(16:16):
very traditional way ofapproaching and he wasn't going
to budge. By the end of theprocess, we started to look at
what was possible. And we'd seenwhat some of the students really
wanted to help change their ownlearning. And he adapted a
couple of them, all of a sudden,his classroom became the model.
Like, he's, and he, I distinctlyremember the son of the one of

(16:40):
the final session, he said, youknow, after 35 years of
teaching, I finally realizedwhat I can do to reinvigorate my
own passion, see kids learndifferently. And I've got a much
more differentiated mathsclassrooms as a senior maths
classroom. And of course, atthat point, it's a bit like the
bell curve, everyone else kindof will, geez, if he can change

(17:02):
like that, surely, we must bedoing something we could change
too. So. So you kind ofsometimes it depends where you
where you want your wins, andchange is not wholesale, it just
doesn't happen. Like everyonedoesn't just change overnight.
And the pandemic that we've beenthrough over the last couple of

(17:24):
years, has been a lovely exampleof where education can, in fact,
adapt overnight, becauseteachers are incredibly flexible
and adaptable. But you can'tsustain that level of change.
Like, as we're seeing now, Ithink, you know, schools and
educators are exhausted, becauseit's just been adapting change

(17:45):
after change after change. Andthere's there's almost no relief
in sight. So change has to havea whole lot of other things
behind it for it to reallystick.

Mike Reading (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you'd look at it like
seasons, is housing explainingit to a principal just this
week, because he was the same,the same thing when the pandemic
hit is a large internationalschool. He said, They shifted
their pedagogy in the first likesix weeks, like they had a bit
of a plan of how they wantedthings to change over the like,
the next three years. In termsof the school improvement plan,

(18:18):
he said, like they, they tickedoff everything in their three
year plan in six weeks, becausethey just had to, but we're at
that last hurdle for them toreally finish off that change
program. And he's saying he'sstruggling to get their buy in
right now. Because everyone'sexhausted, and they're just done
with it. That initial enthusiasmthat everyone had, has now

(18:39):
waned, and I was like, it's justa season, you've got to, you got
to realize that you might feellike you're in winter right now.
But springs coming, you know, sodon't, don't sweat it, just let
it roll. Up, and you'll change.

Hamish Curry (18:52):
Yeah, and sometimes empathy is your best
friend. Like just just insteadof giving over time to really
listen to people, and understandtheir issues and challenges, not
that I can solve itstraightaway. But it just helps
me to understand the landscaperather than just saying that
we're just going to keep pushingthrough, you end up you end up
either breaking yourself orbreaking a lot of other people

(19:15):
and it doesn't, doesn't help thecultural learning environment at
all.

Mike Reading (19:18):
Yeah, yeah. That's so true. My dad always used to
say to me, like, see timeharvest. And the thing I always
struggle with the most of thetime part, like I just want to
see water bomb. Give it to me.

Hamish Curry (19:31):
Yeah, me too. I'm so impatient with that.

Mike Reading (19:33):
Yeah, same he's like, son time time. It's going
to take time. It's gonna bealright. Yeah,

Hamish Curry (19:39):
yeah, humans are not very patient. I think we're
not we're not bred to bepatient, which is why we really
we suck at slow change. Wereally suck.

Mike Reading (19:47):
Yeah, yeah. That's super interesting. So then yeah,
so you went from library whendesign thinking no Tosh side of
things and then you saw your popup all of a sudden, cuz every
now and just check out whereyou're at? on Twitter and sorry
with Asia, it was called Asier.
Education.

Hamish Curry (20:04):
Yeah, Asia Education Foundation. Yeah.
Yeah. And again, it was it waslike another change where I was
like, like with the library, andthen with designing, I was like,
Wait, what am I doing here toactually understand this
environment? And I think for me,what I've always endeavored to
understand is that space ofeducation and learning and how

(20:25):
do we design great learning. Andso the past four years at HR
Education Foundation, weremassive lesson in understanding,
like, what does interculturallearning look like not just
across Australia, but how doesit tie us into our own
neighborhood. And I think it'ssomething that not many
Australians, and Australianschool children, and teachers

(20:48):
have the ability to reallyunderstand the value of our own
neighborhood. And that includesactually, you know, our own
evolution as a nation. So often,people would think of Asia
Education Foundation as being Iwill, I guess, that's all about

(21:08):
Asia, and, you know, going ontrips to China or connecting
with teachers in Japan. Butincreasingly, my emphasis moved
to actually looking at Asia inAustralia. And in fact, Asia is
so much a part of Australia ityou know, 30%, or more actually,
of Australians now have Asianheritage. And so this is our

(21:32):
society it and this is who weare in Australia is is richer
for it, but we often try to playit down, or we have ongoing
issues around prejudice. And oneof the things that the wider
organization at EY F, which iscalled Asia link, one of the
wider issues they kept talkingabout was looking at the bamboo

(21:53):
ceiling, which is how do we helpAsian Australians now present
themselves in leadership rolesthat have opportunities for
leadership roles in Australiansociety? And I think we've hit
that point, but we're beginningto hit that point, you know,
where the whole idea and Iremember, it was actually a New
York Times article that had thetitle of something like, you

(22:16):
know, after 200 years inAustralia, Chinese Australians
finally can call it home. Youknow, so we have this, we
forget, we have this conceptsense that it's recent, but it
hasn't like it's been happeningover decades. And so again,
coming to that slow changepoint, where it's been
happening, we just didn't reallypay attention to it. And so I

(22:36):
really enjoyed the work at AT AF in trying to help people start
to shift their perspective andsuddenly get a wider field of
vision to things that theyhadn't really noticed. And
that's often a good space forlearning.

Mike Reading (22:48):
All right, so what was the like, initially, you
said, your focus changed tothat, but was the original
focus? What was the originalfocus? Was it trying to draw
more international students toAustralia was getting us more
influential overseas, like, whatwas the play there?

Hamish Curry (23:06):
Yeah, that's, that's interesting, I guess, I
guess, we AF wasn't as concernedabout international students,
although we looked at that. Andbecause we were based at
University of Melbourne, therewas a sense, people assumed that
we must all be aboutinternational students, but
actually, we were very much aschools focused organization.
And so we were very much lookingat how do we engage a strange

(23:30):
schools in understanding andlearning about Asia in new ways.
And I guess the usual way to dothat is through the curriculum.
But we would do that through awhole bunch of other levers. So
we had school partnershipprograms that would tie
Australian schools to schools,across about 23 Different

(23:52):
nations across Asia Pacific. Wehad youth programs, we had
professional developmentprograms. And I think the bit
the status shift for me was, isthere a different way of talking
about this space that we're in?
And when I say that, I mean, inthe curriculum, we might talk
about it as interculturalunderstanding which is in the

(24:13):
Australian Curriculum, theVictorian curriculum calls it
intercultural capability, butalmost the same thing. And then
I was looking at it from adifferent perspective, or what
is actually just interculturallearning what what does it look
like and what's and I came backa little bit to some of my
grounding it No, Tasha andlooking at well, what's the
mindset that we need? What's theskill set when we have the plus

(24:36):
one, you know, with one otherperson out in front of me that I
have not really understood orconnected with before? And what
what's the tools that how do wehow do we start to work together
when sometimes there are allsorts of cultural barriers, you
know, potential barriers that wemight perceive language

(24:57):
barriers, different haveprotocols or just relationship
elements. So I always got thebest experience with that work
in watching a game, people'sperception of the world start to
break, you know, and you hear itin the way people talk. And in

(25:18):
the nicest way, one of the sortof informal measures I used to
think about was, educators mighttalk in a language that suggests
there's a bit of a colonialattitude of, oh, gosh, we've got
to help these poor schools inCambodia now that we've got to
help these poor people in PapuaNew Guinea. And very quickly,

(25:40):
about six months in, I hadnumerous conversations with
educators who said, Actually,they're the ones helping us,
they're helping us realize thatit's all about, you know, good
relationships and sustainabilityand doing actually innovating
with very little, or how toreally create love and
relationships inside a studentteacher. Program. And they're

(26:04):
almost envious, actually, I'm soenvious of what this school in
the Philippines has created. Andthat was always a measurement
success for me, becausesuddenly, it showed that the
Australian educators werestarting to shift their own
perception of what they thoughtthe job was. And I think that's
that they're the that's, I mean,in the truest sense, I would

(26:26):
call that lifelong learning.
That's where I've now rewired myopinion, or my assumptions, or
my stereotypes to be completelydifferent to what the world
actually is like.

Mike Reading (26:39):
So it was the purpose to try and shift
teachers and students in theirthinking about Asia, or like,
I'm just trying, if I'm already.
So I'm a teacher. And I'vealready got a very full
curriculum, obviously, there'ssome elements of that, that I
need to satisfy in terms ofAustralia specifically, but if
we broaden the conversation,regardless of what country
you're in, I always wonder aboutthis, because, like we see a

(27:00):
lot. One of the reasons I wasthinking about you, particularly
probably last year, was, youknow, the whole pandemic thing,
and then everyone's blamingChina for it. And then
everyone's blaming China for 5g,and you can't trust the Wi Fi.
And it seems to be like thisreal political, almost what
we're seeing in Russia andUkraine at the moment, I'd hate

(27:21):
to be an educator that wastrying to bridge that gap at the
moment. And then the racialtensions in in America, that
that are spilling over at themoment, and I was actually
thinking about you almostsitting in the center of this
melting pot of Asian education.
And I was just thinking, Iwonder what the tensions are.
Yeah, and how you're managingthose tensions right now and how

(27:43):
you can have like, open andhonest discussions with schools.
And

Hamish Curry (27:47):
yeah, I would say probably the one of the most
shocking things that I saw. So Imy last trip to China was in
November 2019. So just before,like, the pandemic kicked in,
and it was that trip to Chinawas with some Australian school
principals. And it was full ofso much opportunity, warmth,

(28:10):
relationships, sharedpedagogical purpose, like how do
we really develop creativity ineducation, and to see where it
went. It really just shows thepower, again, of leadership that
seeks to divide rather thanunite. Media that gives out

(28:32):
stories that actually perpetuatethe UN, I used to think about
the difference between when youtalk about China, the country
and China and Chinese people.
It's like saying, when I youknow, if I went to China, and
people say, Oh, Australia, likeyou're a bunch of, you know,
bogans. And it's like, well,we're not all like that, of

(28:54):
course, we're not all. And infact, yes. Most people in most
countries are not all like that.
And so we paint, we paintcountries, like there are a
whole glob of people, whenthere's a whole lot of different
factors at work. And when youstart to develop the
relationships, people, it'svery, very different. And one of

(29:15):
the things that disappointed memost was to see some of those
education, relationships breakdown because now China was
suddenly seen as being offlimits, and not and I had some
connections with school leadersin China last year. And none of
that passion and interest hadwaned. It was just like, to be

(29:37):
honest, the unspoken thing wasWhy have you stopped talking to
us? Yeah. Why have Why have why?
And it's kind of it's a it's afacetious question. We know why.
Yeah, but but actually, that'snot who we are. We still want we
still care about education andlearning and I heard Australian
school leaders say that webrought them together with some
Chinese school leaders onlineand Then at the end of the

(29:59):
session, we did a debrief withthe Australian educators, they
were like, wow, they are socommitted creative, passionate.
And you could just hear them andall them going. Yeah, that's not
what I thought was gonna happen,you know, and you can hear them
rewiring as they're speaking.
And that's great. But, you know,but I always set the goal. Well,

(30:20):
that's 20 school leaders thatare now rewired, I need 2000.
And I think we're in a reallychallenging point in our
education, where that anti Chinarhetoric has an is going to have
an impact on education wherekids will go, well, I shouldn't
be learning Mandarin. Or weshouldn't be doing stuff on
China or, and it's, it's all afallacy, but it's somehow been

(30:45):
implanted there from from bothmisinformation disinformation.
And actually suspicion andthat's where prejudice starts
its roots. And again, comingback to my earlier point about
Chinese Australians, peoplewho've called this country home
for generations, we don'tsuddenly really were suddenly

(31:08):
putting them aside. And I, I cansay it now. But there were
stories I heard from from schoolleaders who, whose whose parents
reacted to other Chinesefamilies at school, around
exclusion, and suspicion, I waslike, Are you kidding me? Is
that actually happening? Sayingyes. So the thing that doesn't
filter down into education, wewould be kidding ourselves. And

(31:31):
that was a was suppose ananxiety and a stress that I
carry, and I still carry it withme. It's like, Man, I can't
believe that we would let thathappen in education, when that's
what the purpose of education isall about. Informing the
challenging our knowledge of theworld and helping us to make it

(31:51):
better. If we're not doing thatin education, then we're doing
something seriously wrong.

Mike Reading (31:58):
Part of the tension isn't because seems like
everything falls on educators inone sense, right? There's this
the world is going in thisdirection, somehow education is
going to be the answer. We needto we need to stop it now. We
need to pivot and education iswhere it's not. We're not
looking at corporate America tosolve this or corporate

(32:18):
Australia to solve these issues.
We're looking at teachersultimately lead to do it. It's

Hamish Curry (32:25):
I mean, that's such a good pickup, Mike. I
mean, I, again, I so feel forthe work that teachers do. And
so few people outside ofeducation really understand. And
I was thinking of yesterday ofthat famous slam poet Taylor
Marley, like what are youremember that like what a

(32:46):
teacher makes if anyone haslistened to go and listen to it
again, like either over a dinnertable? So what is the teacher
making salary? And he gets it,I'll tell you what a teacher
makes. And it's just souplifting, right? It's something
shows you the job of aneducator. And that's what
teachers do it. And I think inAustralia, we have a real issue
with how we value educators andI come back to it's the role of

(33:08):
leadership, not necessarilyschool leadership, but
leadership in Australianjurisdictions to really start to
do something to support. Thework that teaches doing has got
far more complex than it has andthe pandemic has made it more
complex. But by that samenotion, I think, out of
complexity can come innovationand opportunity. If we're ready

(33:32):
to let some stuff go and embracea little bit of how to do it
differently. That helpseveryone. Yeah,

Mike Reading (33:40):
I've got a sense of the moment. Like if we think
the pandemics change things, Idon't think we've seen anything
yet. If you look at the greatresignation, which is happening
with principals just leaving indroves, in terms of those
leaders, they like were out. Ifyou look at the level of stress
and emotional toll that's beentaken on teachers, if you have a

(34:02):
look at students, regardless ofwhat you think of the pandemic,
but basically masked up, notable to communicate, the I'm
talking about young kids comingthrough a school system that
they don't even know what it'slike to sit through school for a
whole year because of lockdowns. That whole socialization

(34:22):
site like give that five yearsto run. We're going to see some
interesting things happening.
And again, it's going to be onthe school, and we're still
gonna see headlines likeliteracy is dropping, numeracy
dropping, social anxietyskyrocketing. It's gonna have to
come to that point where it'sgot to be innovation or die
surely. Because

Hamish Curry (34:44):
yeah, and to be honest, too, I think my kids an
opportunity to actually look forsome more unity. And I think
Australia occupies a veryspecial place in the world,
unfortunately, not a terriblygood one. Like we're one of the
most stratified educationsystems in the world, between

(35:04):
government independent, andother like Catholic sectors or
other religious denominationschools, and I think some of the
most inspiring work is havinghappen is when schools across
jurisdictions start to worktogether. And just the other
day, I was speaking with aschool leader, who talked about
work they've been doing, wherethey brought together, schools

(35:27):
across those jurisdictions. Andthey said, the same thing, the
conversation in was where you'redoing amazing stuff, just down
the road that we had no idea andwe can really learn from you.
And in fact, you know, it's agovernment government school
versus this big, independentschool down the road. I think
sometimes, again, we need toreally understand our
neighborhood and our community,if we're to look for the

(35:47):
solution, the solution can'tcome from one school, one
organization, or we'll fix it,it's going to require, well, you
know, that classic saying it'sgoing to require a community and
a village to really shift whatwe do in education. And I think
there's a willingness there.
There are definitely people outthere who are looking to bring
that unity together, what we'vegot to do is start to do that

(36:08):
help them join those dots. Andthat's something I've always
found really, reallyinteresting.

Mike Reading (36:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think we're, yeah, that's one of
the things I missed the most,because though, we used to run a
lot of events across Australiaand New Zealand, in particular,
we'd have everyone come from allover different cities, different
contexts, sometimes evendifferent platforms. So you got
like people who are very Googlytalking to someone who's very
committed to Microsoft or Appletechnologies, and, but they're

(36:36):
learning from one another interms of their context and what
they're doing. And like, I missthose melting pot moments where
you, you get more learning outof the lunch break than you do
out of the secondary runsometimes Yeah.

Hamish Curry (36:50):
With your that, yeah. I said, Well, your lunch
break. So should we just skipthe afternoon session? And keep
talking? Yeah, let's do that.

Mike Reading (36:56):
Yeah, yeah.
There's so much in that, isn'tit? In terms of, and again, it's
like what you're saying,bringing people together just to
have those conversations? And,

Hamish Curry (37:04):
yeah, yeah, I think we're all missing that
role missing that just thathuman connection again, and
remind each other that we areall human and fallible, and we
have our own hopes and dreams.
And, and together actually, wecan we can make each other just
feel a little better about whatwe're doing. And that it's not,
it's not as it, you know, Iguess, you know, it's easy to

(37:25):
get drawn into the dire stuff.
And you've got to understand it,but you can't live in it, it'll
just break you, you need to havethe thing that releases you that
that gives you optimism and asense of creative energy that
pulls you out. Yeah. So in

Mike Reading (37:41):
terms of that, I don't know what you'd call it,
like culturally responsivepedagogy, and so on, are there
any like fundamental buildingblocks or things that we should
be thinking about? If we wantedto go down and pursue that? Or
at least do some reflection onit? Would there be a, like, how
would you start that process ofbeing a little bit more

(38:03):
culturally responsive? Would yousay?

Hamish Curry (38:06):
Look, maybe the simple way to answer that one
would be, I think it's a, andthis was stuff that I was
working on, while I was at AF,which was the idea of, I think
you start with two things, youstart with yourself. And
sometimes it's admitting that weall carry assumptions. And in
fact, many of us all carrystereotypes as well, about

(38:27):
ourselves and about others. Andif you can articulate and
understand those assumptions andstereotypes, and also
acknowledge where there may havebeen prejudice, it helps you
start to change the way you talkor change the way you might see
things and just hold back alittle bit. And then the other
side of it is, is that the skillset? And I think a lot has been

(38:51):
said about things like respectand empathy. And I think in
schools respect sometimes meansa different thing to how I have
seen it. And respect is aboutoften culturally understanding
what's a respectful way toengage. And it means maybe
changing the way you speak oraddress or behave. And if you

(39:12):
can learn sometimes thoseprotocols. It's, it's it's like
a little bit of a superpower andnavigate things that otherwise
might have felt awkward. Sohelping school principals
understand how to deal withaddress and communicate with
maybe new arrivals or new, maybefamilies that maybe might have
come from China or somethinglike that. So and then it's not

(39:34):
just well, we treat all familiesthe same here as well. No,
actually, you need to understandthere are some other different
cultural protocols, that mightmean that they don't see it that
way. So there's that big one. Ithink the empathy piece is
massive. I think. My sense is Idon't think we teach empathy as
a skill enough. And I often talkabout it as the ability to

(39:55):
listen, observe and questionwith as little with as little
bias as possible. And there'sall that work around people like
Otto Sharma, which looks at likeall those listing protocols and
skills that you go through thatreally help in empathy. People
as much as they say, I get thatempathy is not sympathy, but
people still conflate the two.
Yeah. So I think I think empathyis really deeply important. It

(40:17):
can take you a long way. And,and I think, then the final part
is finding something that wewant, we both agree, we would
like a work that we would like ashared outcome on. So it's not
we want to change the worldtogether. But what's one thing
we both agree we want to helpmake better, and if we, if it's

(40:38):
if it's nice and tight,manageable, that changes that
relationship markedly, wesuddenly feel both invested in
each other. And I think whenlooking at culture responsive,
pedagogies those sorts of, youknow, again, coming back to
mindset and skill set, they cando a lot to changing the way,
you know, we see responsibility.

(41:04):
Reciprocity, so how we exchangeand actually also reflection,
which means looking back andgosh, I can't believe I used to
think like that, or I used tobehave like that. That's, that's
an important part, which again,unfortunately, the speed of
education, we don't spend a lotof time looking back and go, How
have I changed not? How have mygrades changed? How has my

(41:28):
mindset changed?

Mike Reading (41:29):
Yeah, I think we've seen that a lot. Like in
an Australian context, I've beenout of Australia, seven years.
But when I was still teaching inAustralia, and in working, when
we started the company, youespecially probably more so in
New South Wales, I think itreally started off where before
you did anything you'dacknowledge the Aboriginal
ancestors, and, and so on. Andyou know, those a bit, sometimes

(41:53):
they do with differentceremonies, like Welcome to
Country ceremonies and thingslike that, depending on what
event you're at. And it seemedlike, people would pull out
their little piece of paperthat's been laminated and gets
passed from classroom toclassroom, and they just read it
verbatim. Put it down, like nowthe real work starts, you know.
And something that I've noticedin the last two or three years

(42:15):
is that quite often people haveliving that a little bit like
they're owning it. And they're,they're talking about it. That
yeah, it seems like even thoselittle it seemed very tokenistic
initially. But it seems likeit's in to a large extent, I
save a lot more. I agree,genuine. Is there a is there

(42:36):
almost a place for tokenistic?
Just to get the ball rollingwhen you're talking about
cultural change? Or?

Hamish Curry (42:46):
Yeah, that's a tricky one, I guess. Hmm. I
think if you're working on anyprocess that involves some sort
of the development of newintercultural relationships,
then those moments becomethey're actually really, really
important that they're nottokenistic. And they can be.

(43:06):
Actually, do they have theopposite effect? If they are
tokenistic, they can reinforce astereotype. And I think
something I've noticed isincreasingly people now being
much more comfortable withactually knowing what country
are you on. So knowing thatyou're on Wiradjuri country, or
Gadigal country or, you know,Boonwurrung country. So I think

(43:30):
all those all those, thatelement of knowledge can be very
empowering. And I think I'vealso seen an increase in a lot
more work being done on schools,even teaching indigenous
languages. And one of the thingsthat, just as you may remind me,
and I used to use it a lot,because I always was keen to
just change that acknowledgementof country. I didn't want it to

(43:54):
be formulaic. I wanted it to becontextual. And I've always
actually had a lot of respectfor when I've been to New
Zealand and seen some of theconferences and educational
events there that the way peopledo those. Maori acknowledgments
is often really contextual. I'vealways been very involved. In

(44:17):
Wiradjuri , country calledWominjeka, which Wominjeka has
sort of become translated aswelcome. And that's often how
it's used. But in fact, Ilearned from a wandering elder
that actually Wominjeka is alike a compound word. It's a
made up of two different parts.
And it actually literallytranslates as come with purpose.

(44:40):
Right? And I absolutely lovethat translation like the idea
of I now better understand whatFirst Nations people meant when
they said, Wominjeka, like comewith purpose. Like if you come
here with genuine intention, andwe can trust you and all that
sort of stuff then then welcomeyou know, and I think sometimes,
to use that classic phrase thatlost in translation can

(45:05):
sometimes be a really powerfullesson in learning. And
sometimes it means undoing whatwe learned.

Mike Reading (45:13):
Yeah. So how do you balance that tension? Again,
you've got a very European whiteculture in Australia,
essentially. And then you'vegot, like the Aboriginal
culture, and then you've got theAsian cultures, and you've got
this melting pot. I mean,Australia specifically is a very

(45:33):
multicultural country. How doyou how do you balance that
tension then between? Like, howdo you Yeah, how do you sort of
hold all that tension in termsof how do you do justice to your
Asian community and the Asianheritage they've got, but then
also the Aboriginal heritage?
And they've got and then some ofthat more traditional Australian

(45:54):
heritage, for instance?

Hamish Curry (45:58):
Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think
there's, I think it'sunderstanding the context,
actually, context is a bigfactor. And I think sometimes in
in Australia's case, you've gotto be careful that the context
don't become tokenistic. So, youknow, just to take a bit of a
broad swath to Harmony Day, canfeel actually like it actually

(46:19):
does more damage, it reinforcesmore stereotypes, because we
just start this one day to dressup in a cultural wear or have
some cultural food that becomesstereotypical. Rather, she said
is what's something contextual?
That means something to ourcommunity? And I, as I said, I
think I my sense, I think we'redoing that better. From a First
Nations perspective, I thinkwe're still learning how to do

(46:42):
it. Because when it comes to anAsian context, I mean, you're
talking about 40, to 45different potential nations. And
even then, I distinctlyremember, when I was on one of
my trips to Indonesia, we weretalking a little bit about this.
And one of the educators got abit worked up, and he kind of

(47:03):
went at me across the table. Hesaid, Yeah, but you don't
understand it. We're not we'renot just Indonesian. You know,
he's Timorese on Balinese, youknow, he's from East Kalimantan.
You know, he's from Surabaya,you know, so people identify by
by the little region thatthey're from, because they have
their own dialect and their owncustomers and their own

(47:24):
protocols. And so there's allthat stuff that sometimes,
again, we get caught by tryingto generalize things to make it
easy, but we end up shuttingpeople out. And actually, and I
think the answer to that, thenis honesty is actually the best
solution is actually that Iknow, I'm probably generalizing

(47:44):
here, I know, I'm leaving peopleout, showing a bit of
vulnerability and weakness, Idon't think leaders do that
enough. To be honest, they wouldrather lie and act like it was
all meant to be or someoneelse's fault that actually admit
that they didn't know or theymaybe didn't say it in the right
way. And I think we need an AIwe hear it from people like

(48:09):
Brene Brown and others, SimonSinek, around vulnerable leaders
who've got the courage, orpeople like your own Prime
Minister, Prime Minister, youknow, people that have the
courage to be vulnerable, muchmore relatable human, and we can
forgive some of their some oftheir assumptions. That's and

(48:30):
that's okay.

Mike Reading (48:33):
Yeah, it's definitely something I'm doing a
lot of thinking around. Becauseculturally responsive is
definitely like an area of focusfor a lot of people, but at the
same time, how do you stop thatbeing a totalistic tokenistic
activity? And then obviously,it's, it's local to where you
are. So yeah, New Zealand.
Obviously, there's a fair bit ofte reo and Maori going through

(48:56):
and but then you've got someschools that as a proportion,
Indian, but yet in our NewZealand context. So becomes
quite, quite quite a strugglefor and rightly so for for
executive leadership teams toreally met like to figure out
what does cultural responsivepedagogy look in that particular

(49:18):
context? So it's been actuallyquite helpful for me to hear
your reflections on that and andsort of filter that through in
some of those things I've beenthinking about

Hamish Curry (49:28):
Yeah, I think I think again, in simple terms, it
comes back to just admittingthat you don't know you don't
understand and saying I actuallyhave I actually have a gap in my
own knowledge and capabilityhere. Like we tell kids every
day about the gaps in theirknowledge and all the skills
they've got to have gaps in butwe've got to swallow our own

(49:49):
medicine and something that Ilearned very, very well at no
charge was always we talkedabout that, like, if we can't do
it to ourselves, then weshouldn't be doing it to
teachers, and we shouldn'tcertainly be doing it to kids.
It's either.

Mike Reading (50:01):
Very true, I just want to pivot for a quick sec,
because you've said a couple oftimes when I was at, AF. So
obviously, you're moving on partof that thing I saw, you put up
and you're speaking aboutvulnerability, put up on
LinkedIn, I think I saw it apost about saying you're feeling
a bit burnt out and a bit likeyou'd lost your, your vibe or

(50:21):
your mojo, and you're out to tryand pick that up. And obviously,
stepping away from that roleover the last three months or so
just interested in that wholeburnout piece. Not only how deep
you want to go into this, butlike, what were the steps you
took to recognize that you're,you're burning out? And then
what were the steps? You got apathway out of that?

Hamish Curry (50:41):
Wow. Yeah, thanks.
Thanks, Mike. Look, it wastough. Like, I really loved my
job. And I felt and I willcontinue to love the work that
that I have does, and I guess itwas a really interesting time
where I kept thinking that,okay, so I've got to try and

(51:04):
help solve some of these quitecomplex challenges. And people
were really stretched, there wasa lot that people had on. And
there was a lot of compoundingpressures that that I think,
just build up. And, of course, Ithink, you know, in all, in all
parts of life, that you know, ifmentally, you're under a huge
amounts of pressure, then yourbody starts to reflect that too.

(51:25):
So I end up getting really badpain in my neck and shoulders.
And a lot of it was justcrouched over a laptop all day
long stressing out and notreally looking after my own
physical well being as much asmy mental well being. And so
that story that I kind of didtake some time to work out if I

(51:49):
wanted to tell it or not. But Imust say that I've actually been
really, really humbled andsurprised at the people that it
has reached and resonated withI, you know, I I've don't write
much on my blog very often. Andwhen I do, it's sort of, I just
want to get some thoughts out.
And they're not meant to be forlike, I'm not intending this to

(52:11):
be some sort of mega sources,where I like to do my thinking.
And so it was really probablyquite powerful to say that lots
of people have lost their mojo.
And increasingly, what I thoughttoo, was, I think it's not just
school leaders and teachers, butkids, kids have lost their mojo.
So losing it, and for me, wasadmitting it that I just lost,
it was big. And I think thething was, and I like to say

(52:35):
maybe it's, I was, and maybetraditionally have been a little
bit of a bloke and kind of,she'll be right, I'll be right,
or I'm just a bit down, youknow, but actually asking for
help, and professional help. Andthat was a big thing for me,
because I I was almost a littlebit out of character. So once a
second meeting, something notright, you know, and the

(52:57):
professional help was wonderful,because they didn't try and
diagnose me or tell me what waswrong. They just listened.
Right? Good empathy skills,like, just listened. And about
the midpoint through that cycleof, of work. They then said, you
know, you're actually sufferingfrom burnout. And I'm like,
yeah, no, I burnout, no, noburnout, it's an actual thing.

(53:20):
You know, it has all these sortof different conditions and
anxieties that come withburnout. And that then helped me
actually, when you can pinpointthe problem, you can deal with
it, you can, and then I was leftwith that point. Okay, do I do I
work through this and stay? Ordo I take some time to look
after myself and leave, and itwas a hard decision to leave, I

(53:43):
must say. But the three monthgap now of having left, I don't
regret it. I feel I feel better.
I got myself physically Well,again, mentally well, again, I
got time with my family tosupport them. With that was that
has worked out really well,serendipitously. And I think

(54:08):
increasingly, it's somethingthat you know, my advice to
those that that maybe go throughthis is you need to have the
trusted people that you can talkto all the services or things
you can call on to talk to. Andnot and I guess in my story is
not to see it as being somehowweak or a sense of failure. And

(54:32):
that's a big step. And thenthat'll be a lesson that I carry
with me for the rest of my life.

Mike Reading (54:36):
Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I probably don't
take it from Oh, maybe I do fromlike on my blog, just get on
with it. Toughen up. I thinkI've just eternally optimistic
like I'm always I don't know, Ijust I always see the good in
something of I see the best inpeople i. And it's been an

(54:57):
interesting journey for me justrecently to just saying Like not
everything has to be fantasticall the time. And it's okay just
for it to be crap, you know, so.
And just acknowledging thatsometimes can go a long way to
just helping the reality is itis what it is. But Yep,
absolutely can't get better.
But, like sit in that for amoment and just acknowledge it

(55:20):
and then find the path out. So

Hamish Curry (55:22):
that's absolutely right, Mike. And I've always
been someone I love to help makeit better and design things to
be better. And when you run outof that creative energy you make
it better is when you I thinkit's the introspection to look
back and go, I need to makemyself better. First of all, I
tried to make other people orother things better.

Mike Reading (55:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Did you take
yourself through a designthinking process?

Hamish Curry (55:44):
There were no hexagons or post it notes
involved with that one, I'mpleased to say, Yeah, I put that
aside for a minute.

Mike Reading (55:51):
And that's good.
And now you want to talk aboutwhat's next. Obviously, you've
found your vibe back in his gota bit of a spring in your step,
and you've got a bit of futurefocus? Yeah, I

Hamish Curry (56:02):
do. I do. Mike, I look at you know, again, it's
been I mean, that's where Ithink networks are a wonderful
thing. And understanding whatyou want, and for me had that's
been that three month gap of sowhat do I want to do next. So
I've, my education career hasbeen, has had a lot of variety,
still standard learning space,but always from a slightly

(56:23):
different perspective. Andthat's what I was looking for.
And looking for, I'm very much apeople person, I wanted to work
with a team of really vibrantenergetic people, I didn't want
to just be a consultant or afreelance or just just sort of
pop in pop out. So it wasfinding that right synergy of
people purpose, and what's thereal thing that gets them up in

(56:45):
the morning. And so So yeah, soyou're probably one of the first
people to hear the news thatI've been appointed as the new
general manager for coolerAustralia. And Cool Australia is
an incredible organization, astartup from about 13 years ago,
founded by Jason Kimberly,around the premise of trying to

(57:08):
help our teachers save time onhow to help their students learn
about sustainability throughsocial, economic and
environmental lenses. And it hasblossomed into an organization
now of about over a dozen staff,and reaching almost into every
school in Australia, I thinkthey're just about to hit 2

(57:31):
million downloads of theirresources. And I'm really
humbled and fortunate to take onthis role in helping to kind of
shape and support the next phaseof what Cool Australia is doing.
And in the truest sense of theword. It's built around digital,

(57:53):
it's about improving access. Andit's about finding the things
that are going to ensure abetter future for educators and
young Australians and theirparents in wrestling with some
of the biggest challenges of ourtimes and how do we communicate
that in a way that allows peopleto learn the context and take

(58:13):
some action? And yeah, it's, I'msuper excited. It just feels
like things clicked. Well,

Mike Reading (58:20):
yeah, that's awesome. Really happy for you
about that. I mean, talk about,I don't know, if you see this,
where I kind of see it on theoutside and just looking in, it
was kind of like you're at thelibrary, and you're almost at
the coffee, like the cuttingface of what was happening in
libraries, and you went to notoss, which was very cutting
edge in terms of design. Andthen you really jumped into the

(58:40):
Asia thing. And that was very,like, that's on the bleeding
edge of where education is. Andthen if you look at society,
economics and an environment,well, if those three things that
were schools are under pressureto innovate and to incorporate
into their curriculums and theirthinking that be it right, so,
yeah, I think you found yourselfright. And there's right spot

(59:01):
where you need to be in terms ofthat next step of your journey.

Hamish Curry (59:04):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I feel as I said, I feelvery fortunate to have such such
a role. And, and I can alreadyjust feel myself buzzing with
kind of that creative energythat I'd been missing around,
you know, how do we get the bestimpact out of this and, and, and
working with such amazingpartners? And I think that's the

(59:27):
thing you've realized there's somany people that want to help
improve education, and whatthey're looking for a people
that could know and understandhow to design that learning. And
that's always been a realpassion of mine. And yeah, it
feels like such a good fit. Soyet, I'm ready for the next
phase.

Mike Reading (59:49):
That's awesome. I want to just wrap up with one
last question for you. I mean,we've talked a lot about change
and you know, the pressures andthe tensions of that change and
You know, the world changingaround education in a sense, and
quite often we hear politiciansand people talk about how
schools so industrialized and sostuck in its ways and, and so

(01:00:12):
on, as someone who's been on theoutskirts of where education is
into intersecting with societyand culture, and, and so on,
like, do you buy into that wholeindustrialized model in like
2022? Now, is that still thecase? Or do you think we've
moved on to an old paradigm andan old narrative so to speak?

Hamish Curry (01:00:30):
Yeah, look, it was, it was probably cool when
Ken Robinson was talking aboutit. Which, you know, God bless,
sir, can you know, it reallyhelped articulate at least a
little bit of introspection onhow do we change the system. But
I think, when you really look ateducation, and and I often refer

(01:00:55):
to a guy called John TaylorGatto, who wrote this seminal
book called weapons of massinstruction. And it's a great
book. It's quite, quite, quiteold now. But he really nailed
out the difference that Ibelieve in, which is that all of
us have experienced school. Andwe all understand the system of

(01:01:18):
schooling, but not all of ushave had an education. And I
think when we talk aboutschooling as a system, yes, it's
quite indust. That's the systemthat's industrial like that
model some of those models ofschooling. But when you talk
about education, I thinkeveryone looks at education
differently. And that reallyinteresting cocktail that we

(01:01:39):
design around a bit of this, abit of that, and great teachers
and engage kids and reallyinteresting concepts. That's
education and the opportunity toaccess things and networks and
experiences that otherwise wedidn't think were possible. So I
think education has constantlyadapted within a very rigid

(01:02:03):
expectation of its model and itsfunction in society. And it's
the same way maybe like, wemight save other entities, like
banks, you know, we have aperception of how banks operate
in a society. But actually, ifyou work at a bank, they don't
operate like that anymore. Wedon't recognize that. Or even in
medicine, you know, we haveindustries that have really

(01:02:24):
shifted the way they work.
Because school deals with suchscale, like you, you work with
millions of kids every day, andtrying to give them this
experience of of learning.
schooling was sort of the model,it just seemed to work to adapt
to scale. And I think what we'verealized in the last 25 years,

(01:02:47):
or more, actually, is that thatmodel doesn't quite isn't quite
fit for purpose. And everyone istelling us that the kids, the
parents, the teachers, like,but, but who's actually going to
change that who's going tochange those expectations of
where learning happens, and howit happens. And when it happens.
And I think the innovators arethose that have more freedom to

(01:03:12):
make their own choices. And Iknow there's a lot being said
about school autonomy. Butschool autonomy can feel like,
oh, you know, a dead weight, ifit's suddenly like, or you just
look after yourself, and wewon't help you. I mean, that's
just abandoning education. But Ithink we're at a really
interesting time. And I think,in the next five to 10 years,

(01:03:34):
we'll look back, you and I willlook back at 2012. And it was
there, it was there in 20s.
While we just weren't quiteready for that change, and it
needed people to keep tellingthe story of that change, to
keep inspiring people. And Ithink that's the thing we need,
we need help continually havepeople that inspire us to know
that there are better optionsfor education outside of what we
think schooling is. And thathelps us to start to transition.

(01:03:57):
And I think probably eventually,I hope that, you know, certainly
it's not true for my kids, buttheir kids school might look a
bit different. And, and I thinkthat's a natural evolution. And
I feels like we're in thisinteresting space where people
are really stuck to bend theexpectations and understanding

(01:04:19):
of what what it means to learnit as a as a child.

Mike Reading (01:04:25):
Yeah. Yeah, very interesting. It's, um, I think
when you're in it, you don't seeit. Part of that thing, like you
don't necessarily see yourselfaging, or you don't see yourself
changing day to day, but if youdon't bump into someone for six
months, and then you see themall of a sudden, you're like,
wow, you've changed, right? So Ithink you're right when you're

(01:04:46):
in it. We're not necessarilysaying it, but I think if we do
look back on, hopefully we'llsee those dots. Kind of like
what we've done today. We'vebeen on a bit of a journey.
We're sort of connecting thedots backwards. You can't ever
connect dots fall Do you cansort of see where you're gonna
go, but you don't exactly know.
But hindsight is always 2020.
And you can always look back andsay, Oh, that dot join to that

(01:05:07):
thought which then joined atthat time and yeah, here we are.
That's why

Hamish Curry (01:05:11):
I love I love the simplest definition of
creativity is that it's onlylogical in retrospect. Yeah, so
tricky. At the time, everyonewill tell you, you're crazy. And
that's how you know you'reinnovating. You know, but in
respect, I see what you'retrying to do. And so I think
that's a good sign that you'veyou've you've tried to make a
difference.

Mike Reading (01:05:29):
Yeah, yeah. What a good spot to stop on that. I
think it's really appreciateyour time. I know you're, you're
busy hooking into your new yournew role, and I appreciate you
taking time out. But I havegenuinely been thinking about
you over the last couple ofyears, especially with all the
tensions on around China andculture and, and so on. And I

(01:05:50):
was someone I've been wanting tochat to and just timing seems to
be right for now, for somereason. So

Hamish Curry (01:05:57):
as usual, Mike, your timing was perfect. You
know, you had any new still gotit. So yeah, just wonderful to
have an opportunity to chat withyou and share a bit of my story.
And yeah, it's been reallywonderful catching up.

Mike Reading (01:06:09):
Yeah, appreciate it, and all the best in your new
role. Thanks, Mike. Cheers.

Unknown (01:06:16):
Thanks for listening.
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