November 1, 2023 • 34 mins
What if quality education was accessible for every child, regardless of their socioeconomic background or race? Buckle up as we explore this intriguing question with Reid Saaris, the force behind the nonprofit Equal Opportunity Schools. With Reid’s unique insights, we illuminate the dark corners of educational inequality and the persistent underinvestment in students of diverse backgrounds, setting the stage for a compelling conversation about what might be done to move the needle on equity in education.
A candidate for the Washington State Superintendency, Reid has committed his career to helping school leaders provide all student an equal opportunity to achieve their dreams. He is the author of "The Kids Across the Hall and the Fight for Opportunity in Our Schools," available HERE on Amazon.com
To connect with Reid, folks can find him on facebook, instagram, and linkedin. His campaign website is www.reid4waschools.com.
"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.
Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ad VO (00:00):
Outliers in Education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
To find out more, visiteffectivenessorg.
Eric Price (00:15):
Education is for everybody?
Right?
In theory maybe, but not inpractice.
One recent study found that 67%of us think our school systems
are actually rigged in the favorof the wealthy and the white.
Is that true, and if it is,what can be done about it?
Today we'll meet a man who hasdedicated his career to these
very questions, on this episodeof Outliers in Education.
Ad VO (00:36):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we
do in schools.
Everything that we do aseducators, it just comes back to
people.
Erich Bolz (00:44):
I love it, even when it's hard, especially when it's
hard.
Ad VO (00:47):
Ultimately.
I mean, this is about what'sbest for kids.
Eric Price (00:52):
Welcome everyone to another installment of Outliers
in Education.
I'm Eric Price here, as always,with my co-host, Eric Bulls
from the Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Bullsie, I found this inspiringquote from the late 1800s, back
when we were starting to latchonto the idea that education
might be a good idea for societyas a whole and not just for the
folks with money and power.
(01:13):
Joseph White, back in 1864, hadthis nice idea about how public
schools could provide a placewhere quote the children of the
rich and poor, of the honoredand the unknown, meet together
on common ground.
Unquote.
The idea was that providing aneducation to everyone, not just
the elite.
(01:33):
But like I talked with mystudents, that was like a
century and a half ago anddoesn't really seem like we've
gotten there yet.
So what do you think, bullsie?
Do you think our school systemsare rigged?
Erich Bolz (01:43):
Well, ep, thanks for starting out with that nice
light topic today, just for you.
So I know rigged for some is aterm that might be triggering a
little bit.
So whether we say our schoolsystems are rigged, whether we
take a look at what sociologistswould say structured inequality
, or whether we just delve intothe data and look at the numbers
, the outcomes in terms ofoutputs out of schools and then
(02:06):
what that means for lifeoutcomes, there's absolutely no
question that, houston, we'vegot a problem.
Eric Price (02:11):
Well, I totally agree with you, and our guest
today has dedicated his careerto making sure that every
student has access to greatlearning opportunities.
That's not a small challenge,I'd say, and he's the founder
and former CEO of the nonprofitcalled Equal Opportunity Schools
.
He's a Harvard grad, a formerschool teacher and coach, an
author, and, most recently, he'sput his name in the hat for the
(02:35):
Washington State Superintendentof Public Instruction.
Please say hello to Reed Sarez.
Welcome, reed.
Reid Saaris (02:41):
Thanks for having me Appreciate the opportunity.
Eric Price (02:44):
It is great to have you on the show, and I just want
your perspective on thisquestion.
Do you think our school systemsare rigged, and if you do, how
do we get there?
Reid Saaris (02:55):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I do think that opportunitiesare still unequal, despite the
best efforts to solve thosechallenges.
I think there's regular andwell-documented underinvestment
in students of a variety ofbackgrounds.
Most recently, I've beenlooking at some of the
Washington State data and thechallenge of funding fully
(03:16):
special education, the challengeof fully funding and resourcing
things like my wife came to theUS at the age of six and she
needed to learn English inaddition to the other things
going on in school and thattakes additional services and
support and so we're notroutinely resourcing those
effectively for folks.
And then you see gaps infunding by students' income and
(03:37):
students' race when you look atall sorts of reports like the
education trust work across thecountry.
So, yeah, big gaps, I would say, and opportunity often outside
of the school people talk aboutand focus on, but also inside
the school in terms of financialresources, in terms of teacher
experience and quality and alsoin terms of curriculum and
access to learning opportunities, which is where I focused a lot
(03:58):
of my career so far.
Erich Bolz (03:59):
Well, thank you for that, Reed, and as somebody a
lot smarter than me, which is afairly long list once said,
systems are completely designedto get the results they get.
Obviously, this didn't happenovernight.
Can you tell us a little bitfrom your perspective around how
we got there?
Reid Saaris (04:13):
Oh, big question.
Yeah, I mean a little bit likeyou were talking about in the
intro.
There's sort of a history ofaccess for the most elite folks,
as determined by society at thetime to school.
So we started out with I was ahistory teacher and I'm
currently doing some teaching atRainier Beach High School and
(04:34):
Theory of Knowledge and thingslike this.
But I love the history anglearound it where, yeah, schools
started out as a notion for justa select few need to be
involved and then, to EP's point, over time you started to see,
hey, education is a public good,it's something that I am better
off if my neighbor is moreeducated.
(04:56):
And so we expanded beyond thenotion of education as something
for white men who own property,to women, to people of color.
We expanded the notion beyondprimary education to education
at the secondary level should beavailable to everyone.
And then the notion of equalopportunity schools was that
(05:18):
logic of universal access andthe public good benefit of
education hasn't yet reached thehighest levels of K-12
education and that is oftenthese advanced courses where
those courses sprang up in the50s and 60s when schools were
getting integrated as a way tohave a separate set of
opportunities for kids at ahigher level and to this day,
(05:40):
you're almost 3 quarters of amillion low-income students and
students of color who would beinvolved in those classes if we
had equal opportunities toparticipate across race and
income lines.
Erich Bolz (05:51):
Hey, why we're on the topic.
Tell us a little bit about howyou derive that figure.
Reid Saaris (05:55):
Sure, yeah.
So the work for me started withthis idea of missing students,
and that was inspired by my bestfriend, who went to school
literally just across thehallway from me and got a
radically different education.
My mom was a career educator andknew the school system, and he
was first generation in hisfamily to go through some of
these experiences, and so hedidn't have a mom pointing him
(06:17):
in the direction of hey, this ishow the system works, this is
where to go, this is the thingsthat'll get you ready for what
you want to do later.
And so that notion of missingstudents followed me to my time
as a teacher, when I started toput more names and experiences
and stories to that idea and sawlots of kids who could do
really incredible work if theywere invited into AP programs,
(06:39):
ib programs, things like that.
To your question about thenational number, we collected
data from every single highschool in the US, data from the
college board, data, from the IBdata, from the National Center
for Education Statistics, and weactually did the math at the
school level for every school inthe US to say how many more low
income students and students ofcolor would you have in these
(07:00):
advanced courses, ifparticipation were equitable,
what are those impediments thatyou see for low income or for
students of color into those IPAP?
Yeah, great question.
So we tended to divide it intoa few categories.
One is basic information.
So if you ask students andwe've asked a lot of them a
million students last time Icounted, but it's been been
going up a lot since we surveyevery student in the, in the
(07:22):
schools where Equal OpportunitySchools has partnered, and you
ask them and you say what is APor IB, how does it work, what
are the benefits, how do I signup?
Just core information about theprograms.
It's inequitable and it'sdivided along the types of lines
that I mentioned with my bestfriend, with my wife and others,
where they just may not knowthe system in the same way that
(07:45):
other students do.
And so you see those inequitiespopping up in terms of what we
call information gaps.
Then you have expectations gaps.
Do you do people in the schoolhave the same level of
understanding of what theaspirations of students are?
We found in those surveys aswell, across probably 40 states
now, that about 90% of studentsfrom every background aspire to
(08:07):
go to college and about 90% ofstudents from every background
report that their parents expectthem to go to college.
But the school system doesn'tnecessarily understand that and
you ask a lot of differenteducators and they have
different you know.
They say maybe 60% want to goto college and these sorts of
things.
So you have differingexpectations on the part of
students, families and theschool in terms of what the
(08:30):
students goals are.
And then there's a preparationquestion, and the preparation
gap is sometimes real andsometimes imagined, where people
say, hey, this set of studentscouldn't do it, they're not
ready, they didn't have the samepreparation as a reason for why
they shouldn't be included.
What we've found time and againis, when you close those gaps,
(08:53):
success in the AP and IB classesmaintains or increases in
general.
And so the preparation gap isreal in some ways and there's
need to support kids and makesure they have the skills, but
we overemphasize that as areason not to include missing
students when it comes down tothe real data of how they do in
the classes.
Erich Bolz (09:13):
So an information and expectation and a
preparation gap yes, hey, thankyou for that Reed and switching
gears just a little tiny bit andyou booked the kid across the
hall.
To fight for opportunities inour schools is based on a lot of
your own experiences, bothwithin your family and your K-12
experience, and then also yourearly teaching in Buford, South
Carolina.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that origin story and
(09:36):
what has really translated intothis lifelong passion?
Sure, absolutely.
Reid Saaris (09:41):
Yeah, I mentioned my best friend earlier and then
one of the other kids across thehall that really started it all
off for me was my foster sister, and at the age of nine I was
in my only childhood home I'dever live in.
And she came at the age of sixand it was her 10th childhood
home and so I had this wake upnotion of hey, there's, there's
(10:01):
radically different lifeexperiences out there in the
world, and then I started tohear and understand how
caseworkers, social workers,counselors and others were
talking about Erin and they weretalking about her and what we
think of in education as adeficit mindset.
She's really bad at how totough and she couldn't possibly,
and so the notion at first wasshe couldn't possibly make it in
(10:23):
a mainstream classroom.
My mom, being a schoolcounselor, said a little bit
later we need to retest her onthose things that you sort of
drew those conclusions around.
And her and my mom's notion wasthat Erin had been traumatized
and she was scared.
And the engagement that she'sshowing on this test has nothing
to do with with a limitedcognitive capability.
It has to do with the nature ofour way of understanding that.
(10:46):
And so Erin had beenmalnourished and all sorts of
things, and after a time weretested her and suddenly she
went from well, she couldn'tpossibly be successful in a
mainstream classroom to, ofcourse, she can be successful in
a mainstream classroom.
We also heard things like shecouldn't be successful in a
regular family.
She might not ever learn how tolove some of these sorts of
things.
That as a nine year old, 10 yearold, 11 year old, I got to see
(11:09):
and experience.
Erin, instead of these, youknow notions about who, what she
couldn't do, and I knew thatthe notions that that were sort
of limiting notions weren't true.
And I knew the same thing withJamie in high school, when the
notion was, hey, you know, hecan't do the college level
coursework, and so that's whatinspired me along the journey
(11:30):
was every time people started tosay somebody couldn't, I said,
well, actually I know mystudents and I saw what they did
.
Actually I know Jamie, actuallyI know Erin.
And so let's not assume against, let's assume in favor of and
let's increase opportunities andlet people have a chance to
show what they can do.
Erich Bolz (11:49):
The portrayal of your mom in the initial part of
the books pretty transparent.
What's, what's thatrelationship like now?
Reid Saaris (11:55):
Yeah, with me and my mom, or my mom and my sister.
Erich Bolz (12:00):
Hey, great questions .
Feel free to answer both.
Eric Price (12:04):
Hey, you don't get to ask questions here, reed,
don't?
You know the deal here?
What's up?
Reid Saaris (12:08):
Yeah, I mean, all of us will be getting together
for Christmas coming up and wespend good time together and you
know, with the book, we'veunpacked some of these issues
together.
So it's yeah, it's easy toconvey somebody else as having
missed out on potential orunderestimated somebody.
So there's a little bit of thatabout my mom, which is maybe
what you're referring to interms of my perspective versus
(12:30):
hers on this.
A big part of the story for mewas I came, you know, ripping
out of this set of childhoodexperiences and, you know,
social justice motivated as ayoung educator, and you know
part of that is saying, oh man,I see how these other people are
really screwing things up andthey don't get it, and that
notion, I think, caused me a lotof trouble.
(12:52):
To have that attitude aboutother people and to say, well, I
got it figured out and I gotthe data and I know how, to, you
know, believe in people andother people don't have it can
be a really toxic way toapproach things.
And so some of the irony and, Ithink, interesting part of the
story over time is how do wecome to understand, as educators
in our own journey, the waysthat we are misunderstanding
(13:15):
people, the ways that we havenot yet figured things out, the
things that we have yet to learn, and I think you know a little
bit of poking fun at myself morethan anything throughout the
book to start to say, hey, youknow, here's this guy walking
around pretending he knows theanswer to this thing, when he's
doing the very things that he'sconcerned with other people
doing and not realizing it.
(13:36):
And that's the position where Ithink we all find ourselves into
some extent.
We want to, as educators, enterthe room and say I got the
answer, I got it figured out, Igot this and that, and you all
have a lot to learn.
And the reality is we have alot to learn and it's hard and
it's vulnerable, and so that'swhat I tried to do in the book
was make it a real journey ofnot somebody saying I'm writing
(13:59):
the book because I have all theanswers, but I'm writing the
book because I've got a lot ofmistakes to share.
And, yes, I started out bypointing out mistakes and others
, but eventually got pushed tothe point where I could really
acknowledge those in myself,even on tough issues like race
and gender and what we expect ofothers.
Eric Price (14:14):
So, Reed, let me just ask you this Can I get this
right that if I write a book, Ican clean up all the crap
that's happened in my family?
Is that what I can do?
I just want to get that clear.
Reid Saaris (14:26):
Yes, yes, Perfect.
Eric Price (14:29):
So when we start to talk about some of those
inequalities, what are thethings that you would say, hey,
this is how we can start to movethat system that we haven't
moved for a century and a half.
What are those steps that youthink that we should get to
where we can have more of anequitable education system?
Reid Saaris (14:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I do think it involvesa bunch of nerdy stuff on the
one hand, a bunch of nerdy stufflike funding formulas and
teacher credentialing andassignment and who gets into
which classes and the masterschedule and how we orient that.
But I think the sort of themethroughout the book, that is the
(15:10):
sort of a little more humanthan technical, is that we have
to start seeing the potentialand possibility in others,
because I was in programs thatwere not especially diverse as a
student and so I missed out ona lot of learning.
And so the sort of other sideof the kid across the hall is it
(15:31):
can refer to Aaron and Jamie,but it also refers to me and if
I'm separated out from folkswith different experiences, my
learning is severely diminished.
And at a very fundamental level,learning is the incorporation
of difference into our minds.
If you walk into a classroom asa student or a teacher and you
(15:51):
aren't encountering somethingdifferent than what you already
think and you're not grapplingwith that and incorporating that
into your mind at the brainlevel, you haven't learned
anything.
And so if we're havinghomogeneity of experiences as
leaders, as educators, asstudents, I think we're having
only a partial and a relativelymore impoverished education.
(16:11):
So I think the biggest thing todo to address a lot of these
challenges is we need to haveexperiences on a day-to-day
basis with people who aredifferent from our experiences
and backgrounds.
Eric Price (16:22):
And does the system push back Reid?
What is the push back from thesystem on that homogeneity?
Reid Saaris (16:27):
I mean there's a push towards separation.
We have increasing residentialsegregation, we have increasing
separation when it comes to whogoes to school where.
And then the programs that I'vebeen working on AP and IB
programs they have tended to berelatively separate, and so the
more I'm exposed to something,the more I like it as a basic
(16:47):
tendency, when you look atimages and words and all these
sorts of things.
So what is our exposure?
And then that sort ofself-perpetuates right.
And so there has to be, I think, leadership coming in to break
that cycle and say, hey, Ibelieve that kids of every
background can do this.
I believe people of differentbackgrounds can live in the same
neighborhood and I'm going toinvest in that and I'm going to
(17:07):
spend time there and then sortof break that cycle towards how
we think about things and whatwe're exposed to and what we're
aware of and what we like.
Eric Price (17:15):
All right, after the break we'll be back for more
with Reid Sarris right here onOutliers in Education Not by SEL
(17:49):
expert Dr Greg Benner.
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Erich Bolz (18:05):
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Eric Price (18:27):
Welcome back to Outliers in Education.
Today we're deep inconversation with author,
education activist and candidatefor the Washington State
Superintendent, reid Sarris.
Erich Bolz (18:36):
In the part of the world that I live in, I live on
the dusty side of the cascades.
In the part of the world that Ilive in, it's not uncommon to
hear there is no white privilege, there is no gender privilege.
How do we begin to actuallyphysically unpack that?
Reid Saaris (18:48):
Yeah, I mean back in the classroom as a teacher,
so drawn back to what we'retalking about in the classroom,
because we try to engage allthese things down.
And what we're talking about asa class is that there are ways
to get to the bottom of aquestion like that Do these
things exist?
And so we've just been enjoyingthe power of experimental
method as a way to get an answerto a question like that, and so
(19:09):
when you say that this type ofprivilege doesn't exist, you can
simply start to test it.
You know, and for folks whoaren't aware, there's just so
many interesting studies to lookup and say, hey, if I change
somebody's name to a name thatsounds like it's of a different
background, you're gonna seefewer callbacks for a job
(19:30):
opportunity.
When you lower the curtain atthe orchestra and do the
auditions, you're gonna have anincrease in women who are
getting selected to participatein the orchestra, because
there's a male female bias inselection for the orchestra.
And so to me, those are youknow, they're worthwhile
questions and discussions.
Absolutely you should questionthe notion of do these things
(19:51):
exist if I haven't seen it andexperienced it.
Let's get some data and let'sget some evidence, and the
evidence is strong in a varietyof ways.
It doesn't mean that every thingthat everybody came up with
about bias or prejudice is true,but I think the evidence is
really powerful to see a widevariety of ways in which it does
show up, and that's what we didwith the AP and IB programs.
(20:14):
And when you get down to datatoo, I think it can lower
people's defensiveness If I sayhey, there's a set of students
in our school who haven't beenencouraged to participate in
advanced courses by any adult.
It may have to do with theadult at home and may have to do
that with the adult at school,but what we know is that
encouragement by any adult toparticipate at least this was in
(20:35):
some of our early data Ihaven't looked at the most
recent any student who'sencouraged to participate by
adult is four times as likely tosign up and get involved.
So we don't need to talk somuch about who didn't encourage
who.
But let's say we have anopportunity here.
We have an opportunity withkids who are excited.
They have the motivation thatteachers say is important to
participate.
They have a B and C that aregonna make them likely to be
(20:57):
successful in advanced courses.
Let's have that encouragingconversation and start to shift
the data based on facts ratherthan accusations or
recommendations or things likethat.
Eric Price (21:09):
So, reed, we've been Bullsie and I've been in this
business for about 30 years Eachabout 60 years.
So we've seen this pendulumswinging back and forth, but one
of the things that I think hasreally impacted both Bullsie and
I is this idea about belonging.
So that seems to be a subjectthat you've kind of picked up on
(21:32):
and pointed towards.
Why do you think that's such abig deal in this context of
equality?
Reid Saaris (21:37):
I think it's at the if you think of a hierarchy of
needs, it's at the base of thehierarchy of needs.
It's a gateway to so much else.
If I don't feel like I belongsocially, I got alarm signals
going off.
It's a threatening environment,Like Claude Steele describes it
.
It's like there's a snake inthe room and you're sort of on
alert.
And so then you say, well, canyou focus on this thing over
here?
And you say, well, there's asnake in the room.
(21:59):
I don't know if I'm belong here,I don't know if I'm safe here,
I don't know how people aregonna treat me and all those
sorts of things.
So we've worked with a lot ofteachers to support their desire
to increase belonging and to dobelonging rich activities.
We've also done belongingactivations where you really
share data with kids.
Hey, 50% of kids of colorentering AP for the first time
(22:21):
worry that they won't belong.
So you take it from I don'tbelong to.
That's how a lot of people likeme feel in this experience and
so that's okay and normal, notsomething that suggests I
shouldn't be there.
And then the last one we did iswe had kids write postcards to
appear where they would say atthe end of this experience in AP
(22:42):
, what would I tell people likeme who are coming in to the
courses and so give thempointers and have a sense of hey
, this is experience of peoplelike me and that's normal to go
through worrying I don't belongand finding my path and those
sorts of things.
So I think that's a keyquestion and really important
area.
Eric Price (22:57):
And let me ask you this, reed so this is just from
the hip, but do you think thatmost schools ask those questions
of students like do you feellike you belong?
Reid Saaris (23:07):
Oh man, increasingly I think they have
been, but I don't know that it'sa systematic effort and I think
it's always.
There's always an opportunityto find better ways to use and
collect data.
At schools we sort of oftenfind ourselves the sort of data
rich and insight or informationand knowledge poor, and so I
(23:29):
think that's one where we justfound tremendous value and when
folks close the gaps in accessto advanced courses, there was a
transformation in belonging andso we sort of tracked that and
I think it's a huge unlock.
I think it's a huge sort ofbaseline thing that schools
should absolutely be looking atand tracking and addressing when
there are challenges there.
Erich Bolz (23:50):
Reed, we know that you have thrown your hat in the
ring for state superintendent ofpublic construction.
Curious as to what prompted youto run?
Obviously you have.
You've forgotten more aboutpolicy than EP, and I know, and
we consider ourselves policywonks, so you know what a box
the state superintendent is inwith regard to policy to some
extent.
So what changes or green shootswould you hope to see as a
(24:14):
result of your role as statesuperintendent, given some
fairly significant policyconstraints For me?
Reid Saaris (24:22):
what prompted me to run was my experience with
teachers, students and leadersall across the state and across
the country who are makingbreakthroughs.
It's a, you know, teaching is areally challenging.
It's increasingly challenging.
We have all sorts of things,you know, headwinds lately, but
I see people make breakthroughsand I don't think that there is
(24:43):
to your question about policy.
I don't think there's a policysilver bullet.
There is no button that anystate superintendent can press
to.
You know, because in our stateyou're talking about over a
million students in relationshipwith tens of thousands of
teachers on a daily basis.
It's incredibly complex.
It's the largest sharedundertaking that we have in
(25:05):
Washington state.
From a resource standpoint,people standpoint, dollar
standpoint, this is just animmense undertaking, and so, to
me, I was prompted to getinvolved because the last seven
years, we've seen declines instudent learning, fallen out of
the top half of states in termsof student learning, according
to NAEP.
We've seen steady declines instudent mental health, and these
(25:27):
things are not just a result ofthe pandemic.
We've seen declines before thatand we're 40th out of 50 states
, which means 39 other statesare doing it better, which to me
is a travesty.
We have the shared values inWashington state to address this
.
We have the economic resourcesWe've been one of the fastest
growing economies for multiplerecent years running.
We have the research andinsights and data collection,
(25:50):
and so to me, it's aboutleadership that connects those
dots.
And I actually thrive in anenvironment where you don't have
that magic button to press,because with equal opportunity
schools, we have no power overanybody.
What we had was the mission workand the sort of goals that we
shared with people and that theyshared with us, and we had deep
(26:12):
data and worked together tosolve challenging problems, and
so that resulted.
I think by the time I left, wehad been hired by more than a
thousand school and districtleaders across the country where
they were actually paying ournonprofit to come in and help
them solve problems.
So if they don't even have topay me because I'm state
(26:33):
superintendent and we have theteam there, we'll come in and
solve problems with people andwe'll use the data and I'm
obsessed with where can you makethe biggest difference in
people's lives and what's goingto make the biggest difference
to address the challenges thatteachers are facing and things
like that.
So I say you get focused on theproblems that are most
significant and you solve themtogether.
There is no magic formula,magic policy, but it's the work
(26:55):
I've been doing and I see a hugeneed for that here in
Washington.
Erich Bolz (26:58):
Just a short follow up.
What would you see your twoyears into your role as state
superintendent?
What would you see as one tothree key green shoots?
Reid Saaris (27:07):
So I put out a paper recently, early summer,
with the Children's Alliancecalled when Can we Find Hope
During the Epidemic ofHopelessness Facing Our Children
, and I think mental health istop of the list.
We declared it an emergency, Ithink, over two years ago.
Our data findings were that 58%of Washington adolescents are
(27:28):
experiencing symptoms of anxietyand depression, with one in 10
having attempted suicide in thelast year, and it's just at a
level that's inconceivable to me.
And the part of what pushed meinto running was we put together
a lot of data and insights onthis.
We interviewed people aroundthe state, around the country,
around the world what are thebest strategies?
(27:48):
And it was long into I don'tknow, a year plus after it was
declared a state of emergency.
We went around to people and wesaid we're new to this, but
we're trying to pull togethersome insights and let us know if
we're on the right track andthis is useful.
And the response generally wasthank you for bringing us
together around this, aroundevidence and data of what's
possible so that we can actuallyget to solutions here.
(28:10):
And I was thinking that's whatI love to do, let's do this.
And so we've come up with a setof solutions in the paper that
I think will be reviewed thisyear by the state board and
probably the legislature.
That says, you know, at $40 astudent you could have really
rigorous, evidence-basedstrategies that will address
issues for most of the studentswho are struggling with anxiety
and depression, which is thebiggest driver of mental health
(28:32):
struggle in our state.
So that would be a big one.
Eric Price (28:34):
And to put that into context, reed, how much?
If that's $40 per kid, how muchare we spending per kid and FTE
for the state of Washingtonabout?
Reid Saaris (28:42):
For overall spend I forget the exact figure maybe
around 15,000 students thesedays.
So, yeah, 40 is a really smallportion, and we have a lot of
federal funding to be able to dothe startup costs and launch
for systems like this.
So, yeah, I think that's a bigone.
I think we should follow theevidence-based strategies around
(29:04):
, whether it's paraeducators,tutors and learning support,
because we do have not only theachievement gap that's caused by
opportunity gaps that peoplehave been talking about a lot,
but we have a lot of pandemicgaps and things there that some
areas within our state, someschools and some other states
have aggressively addressed andsupported, so that you can find
(29:24):
schools and districts wherestudent learning is above where
it was pre-pandemic levels, andso I think those are the types
of scaled solutions that weshould have accessible to
everyone.
And then the third sort ofgreen shoot to me is getting
serious about what high schooland beyond planning means, and
again, this is a case wherewe're behind most other states,
(29:45):
and I think that surprisespeople to know and that one's
not rocket science, but it doestake bringing people together
around evidence and buildingsolutions collaboratively, which
is what I love to do.
Eric Price (29:56):
Yeah, reid.
Well, now is the time thatBullsy.
We have asked him to summarizethis whole thing.
Bullsy, you got a lot ofboulders here.
What do you got for a summary,my man?
Erich Bolz (30:08):
Well, you caught me writing my last note.
I make a commitment to keep itto a page, so it's an awful lot
to distill inside of one pagetoday.
So bottom line, starting rightfrom the top, opportunities are
still inequitable.
I think it's absolutelyfantastic that he's working
part-time at Rainier Beach as ateacher right now.
Boy, is it tough out there.
(30:28):
So knowing that we've got astate superintendent candidate
who's plugged into that everydayreality, I think really will
resonate with folks.
I really appreciate it in thebook and this was a learning for
me.
I hadn't thought about the factthat advanced level classes
were really another Jim Crowresponse to integration and I
think that's something that'simportant to think about.
I think the word that's goingto resonate with our educator
(30:50):
friends out there when we reallypull this apart and test the
data is disproportionality.
It's something that we hear allthe time and our requirements
are around reporting, but whatwould happen if our best and
brightest outputs, our students,looked like a slice of the
communities we serve?
Great things would happen, bothin terms of holistic life
(31:13):
outcomes but also increasing ourGDP.
It's the best investment we canmake, both in individuals and
in societies.
The collective so many parallelswith our outlier study.
It's almost as if CEE and Reedhave been doing parallel work
for the longest time.
But one of the things that welook at in the outlier study and
those successful schools wefound in those 23
(31:33):
characteristics and conditionsthat we found across those
schools none of them were statemandated or prescribed
improvement efforts, by the way.
What we did find is studentswho are encouraged to elaborate
on personal goals and outcomesare students who tend to achieve
it at higher levels.
So lots of parallels in thatresearch.
On a personal level.
Always easier to critiqueothers than to change ourselves
(31:55):
and reflect on our ownapproaches and performances.
So I think that was just apowerful reminder and a theme in
Reed's book Across the Board.
Really like the answer aroundhow do we start to break down
notions of there is no whiteprivilege, there is no gender
privilege.
I think if we could encouragepeople to test their beliefs
against the empirical evidence,we would be further along as
(32:16):
opposed to throwing mud at eachother for our own personal
points of view.
So I thought that was a reallysmart answer.
I love what Reed brought uparound four times more likely to
persist in these classes Ifyou've got an adult who says
have you considered it?
Or you should do it, becausethat just jives with so much we
know about the power of onecaring adult inside of the
school house to transform achild's education or to ensure
(32:39):
that child actually becomes agraduate.
Public ed the largest sharedeffort we have in our state from
a scope and scale and resourcestandpoint Mental health in
terms of a green shoot, reallystood out to me and it validated
that I think we're on the righttrack and we think of so many
of our podcast guests, fromMaria Barrera to Jim Sporelater,
greg Benner and AramChristopher, all talking about
(33:02):
different aspects of surfacingstudent trauma and addressing
that mental health.
Thanks, reed, we feel likewe're on the right track and I
think, to conclude, maybe jobone, it's to foster belonging,
those social connections andthat growth mindset we want all
students to have the potentialto say I am an AP student, I
belong here and, reed, thank you, it was just great to be on
(33:22):
with the Kindred spirit today.
Reid Saaris (33:24):
Awesome.
This is great.
Yes, I really appreciated theopportunity and what a good
conversation about the good workhappening.
Eric Price (33:31):
Reed, is there anything else you'd like to
touch on that Bowles didn't getin that exhaustive summary.
Reid Saaris (33:36):
No, I think you covered it all.
I would just say that you know,yeah, folks want to follow
along with what we're up to.
It's read for wasschoolscomREID, the number four,
waschoolscom, and then the bookwe were talking about is the Kid
Across the Hall.
Where can they find that?
Anywhere books are sold.
Eric Price (33:54):
Reed, I want to thank you for being on the
program and really your heart tosay, hey, let's do the right
thing, because that's what I'mhearing you and I think that
Bowlesy and I are very much inthat same headspace of we now
have seen it, we've been in itand now we want to make sure
that we try to make it as rightas possible for all kids.
So I want to thank you forbeing on the show and for your
(34:17):
efforts to try to do that verysame thing.
So thank you, yes, thank you somuch.
Erich Bolz (34:20):
I really appreciate it, and thanks to all of you for
joining us today on Outliers inEducation.
You can find this episode andmore anywhere you listen to your
favorite podcast or visit usonline at effectivenessorg.
Until next time, this has beenOutliers in Education.
Ad VO (34:39):
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to help drive positive changein your school or district, take
a moment to visit CEE, theCenter for Educational
Effectiveness, ateffectivenessorg.
Better data, better decisions,better schools Outliers in
Education.
Outliers in Education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
To find out more, visiteffectivenessorg.
Eric Price (00:15):
Education is for everybody?
Right?
In theory maybe, but not inpractice.
One recent study found that 67%of us think our school systems
are actually rigged in the favorof the wealthy and the white.
Is that true, and if it is,what can be done about it?
Today we'll meet a man who hasdedicated his career to these
very questions, on this episodeof Outliers in Education.
Ad VO (00:36):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we
do in schools.
Everything that we do aseducators, it just comes back to
people.
Erich Bolz (00:44):
I love it, even when it's hard, especially when it's
hard.
Ad VO (00:47):
Ultimately.
I mean, this is about what'sbest for kids.
Eric Price (00:52):
Welcome everyone to another installment of Outliers
in Education.
I'm Eric Price here, as always,with my co-host, Eric Bulls
from the Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Bullsie, I found this inspiringquote from the late 1800s, back
when we were starting to latchonto the idea that education
might be a good idea for societyas a whole and not just for the
folks with money and power.
(01:13):
Joseph White, back in 1864, hadthis nice idea about how public
schools could provide a placewhere quote the children of the
rich and poor, of the honoredand the unknown, meet together
on common ground.
Unquote.
The idea was that providing aneducation to everyone, not just
the elite.
(01:33):
But like I talked with mystudents, that was like a
century and a half ago anddoesn't really seem like we've
gotten there yet.
So what do you think, bullsie?
Do you think our school systemsare rigged?
Erich Bolz (01:43):
Well, ep, thanks for starting out with that nice
light topic today, just for you.
So I know rigged for some is aterm that might be triggering a
little bit.
So whether we say our schoolsystems are rigged, whether we
take a look at what sociologistswould say structured inequality
, or whether we just delve intothe data and look at the numbers
, the outcomes in terms ofoutputs out of schools and then
(02:06):
what that means for lifeoutcomes, there's absolutely no
question that, houston, we'vegot a problem.
Eric Price (02:11):
Well, I totally agree with you, and our guest
today has dedicated his careerto making sure that every
student has access to greatlearning opportunities.
That's not a small challenge,I'd say, and he's the founder
and former CEO of the nonprofitcalled Equal Opportunity Schools
.
He's a Harvard grad, a formerschool teacher and coach, an
author, and, most recently, he'sput his name in the hat for the
(02:35):
Washington State Superintendentof Public Instruction.
Please say hello to Reed Sarez.
Welcome, reed.
Reid Saaris (02:41):
Thanks for having me Appreciate the opportunity.
Eric Price (02:44):
It is great to have you on the show, and I just want
your perspective on thisquestion.
Do you think our school systemsare rigged, and if you do, how
do we get there?
Reid Saaris (02:55):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I do think that opportunitiesare still unequal, despite the
best efforts to solve thosechallenges.
I think there's regular andwell-documented underinvestment
in students of a variety ofbackgrounds.
Most recently, I've beenlooking at some of the
Washington State data and thechallenge of funding fully
(03:16):
special education, the challengeof fully funding and resourcing
things like my wife came to theUS at the age of six and she
needed to learn English inaddition to the other things
going on in school and thattakes additional services and
support and so we're notroutinely resourcing those
effectively for folks.
And then you see gaps infunding by students' income and
(03:37):
students' race when you look atall sorts of reports like the
education trust work across thecountry.
So, yeah, big gaps, I would say, and opportunity often outside
of the school people talk aboutand focus on, but also inside
the school in terms of financialresources, in terms of teacher
experience and quality and alsoin terms of curriculum and
access to learning opportunities, which is where I focused a lot
(03:58):
of my career so far.
Erich Bolz (03:59):
Well, thank you for that, Reed, and as somebody a
lot smarter than me, which is afairly long list once said,
systems are completely designedto get the results they get.
Obviously, this didn't happenovernight.
Can you tell us a little bitfrom your perspective around how
we got there?
Reid Saaris (04:13):
Oh, big question.
Yeah, I mean a little bit likeyou were talking about in the
intro.
There's sort of a history ofaccess for the most elite folks,
as determined by society at thetime to school.
So we started out with I was ahistory teacher and I'm
currently doing some teaching atRainier Beach High School and
(04:34):
Theory of Knowledge and thingslike this.
But I love the history anglearound it where, yeah, schools
started out as a notion for justa select few need to be
involved and then, to EP's point, over time you started to see,
hey, education is a public good,it's something that I am better
off if my neighbor is moreeducated.
(04:56):
And so we expanded beyond thenotion of education as something
for white men who own property,to women, to people of color.
We expanded the notion beyondprimary education to education
at the secondary level should beavailable to everyone.
And then the notion of equalopportunity schools was that
(05:18):
logic of universal access andthe public good benefit of
education hasn't yet reached thehighest levels of K-12
education and that is oftenthese advanced courses where
those courses sprang up in the50s and 60s when schools were
getting integrated as a way tohave a separate set of
opportunities for kids at ahigher level and to this day,
(05:40):
you're almost 3 quarters of amillion low-income students and
students of color who would beinvolved in those classes if we
had equal opportunities toparticipate across race and
income lines.
Erich Bolz (05:51):
Hey, why we're on the topic.
Tell us a little bit about howyou derive that figure.
Reid Saaris (05:55):
Sure, yeah.
So the work for me started withthis idea of missing students,
and that was inspired by my bestfriend, who went to school
literally just across thehallway from me and got a
radically different education.
My mom was a career educator andknew the school system, and he
was first generation in hisfamily to go through some of
these experiences, and so hedidn't have a mom pointing him
(06:17):
in the direction of hey, this ishow the system works, this is
where to go, this is the thingsthat'll get you ready for what
you want to do later.
And so that notion of missingstudents followed me to my time
as a teacher, when I started toput more names and experiences
and stories to that idea and sawlots of kids who could do
really incredible work if theywere invited into AP programs,
(06:39):
ib programs, things like that.
To your question about thenational number, we collected
data from every single highschool in the US, data from the
college board, data, from the IBdata, from the National Center
for Education Statistics, and weactually did the math at the
school level for every school inthe US to say how many more low
income students and students ofcolor would you have in these
(07:00):
advanced courses, ifparticipation were equitable,
what are those impediments thatyou see for low income or for
students of color into those IPAP?
Yeah, great question.
So we tended to divide it intoa few categories.
One is basic information.
So if you ask students andwe've asked a lot of them a
million students last time Icounted, but it's been been
going up a lot since we surveyevery student in the, in the
(07:22):
schools where Equal OpportunitySchools has partnered, and you
ask them and you say what is APor IB, how does it work, what
are the benefits, how do I signup?
Just core information about theprograms.
It's inequitable and it'sdivided along the types of lines
that I mentioned with my bestfriend, with my wife and others,
where they just may not knowthe system in the same way that
(07:45):
other students do.
And so you see those inequitiespopping up in terms of what we
call information gaps.
Then you have expectations gaps.
Do you do people in the schoolhave the same level of
understanding of what theaspirations of students are?
We found in those surveys aswell, across probably 40 states
now, that about 90% of studentsfrom every background aspire to
(08:07):
go to college and about 90% ofstudents from every background
report that their parents expectthem to go to college.
But the school system doesn'tnecessarily understand that and
you ask a lot of differenteducators and they have
different you know.
They say maybe 60% want to goto college and these sorts of
things.
So you have differingexpectations on the part of
students, families and theschool in terms of what the
(08:30):
students goals are.
And then there's a preparationquestion, and the preparation
gap is sometimes real andsometimes imagined, where people
say, hey, this set of studentscouldn't do it, they're not
ready, they didn't have the samepreparation as a reason for why
they shouldn't be included.
What we've found time and againis, when you close those gaps,
(08:53):
success in the AP and IB classesmaintains or increases in
general.
And so the preparation gap isreal in some ways and there's
need to support kids and makesure they have the skills, but
we overemphasize that as areason not to include missing
students when it comes down tothe real data of how they do in
the classes.
Erich Bolz (09:13):
So an information and expectation and a
preparation gap yes, hey, thankyou for that Reed and switching
gears just a little tiny bit andyou booked the kid across the
hall.
To fight for opportunities inour schools is based on a lot of
your own experiences, bothwithin your family and your K-12
experience, and then also yourearly teaching in Buford, South
Carolina.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that origin story and
(09:36):
what has really translated intothis lifelong passion?
Sure, absolutely.
Reid Saaris (09:41):
Yeah, I mentioned my best friend earlier and then
one of the other kids across thehall that really started it all
off for me was my foster sister, and at the age of nine I was
in my only childhood home I'dever live in.
And she came at the age of sixand it was her 10th childhood
home and so I had this wake upnotion of hey, there's, there's
(10:01):
radically different lifeexperiences out there in the
world, and then I started tohear and understand how
caseworkers, social workers,counselors and others were
talking about Erin and they weretalking about her and what we
think of in education as adeficit mindset.
She's really bad at how totough and she couldn't possibly,
and so the notion at first wasshe couldn't possibly make it in
(10:23):
a mainstream classroom.
My mom, being a schoolcounselor, said a little bit
later we need to retest her onthose things that you sort of
drew those conclusions around.
And her and my mom's notion wasthat Erin had been traumatized
and she was scared.
And the engagement that she'sshowing on this test has nothing
to do with with a limitedcognitive capability.
It has to do with the nature ofour way of understanding that.
(10:46):
And so Erin had beenmalnourished and all sorts of
things, and after a time weretested her and suddenly she
went from well, she couldn'tpossibly be successful in a
mainstream classroom to, ofcourse, she can be successful in
a mainstream classroom.
We also heard things like shecouldn't be successful in a
regular family.
She might not ever learn how tolove some of these sorts of
things.
That as a nine year old, 10 yearold, 11 year old, I got to see
(11:09):
and experience.
Erin, instead of these, youknow notions about who, what she
couldn't do, and I knew thatthe notions that that were sort
of limiting notions weren't true.
And I knew the same thing withJamie in high school, when the
notion was, hey, you know, hecan't do the college level
coursework, and so that's whatinspired me along the journey
(11:30):
was every time people started tosay somebody couldn't, I said,
well, actually I know mystudents and I saw what they did
.
Actually I know Jamie, actuallyI know Erin.
And so let's not assume against, let's assume in favor of and
let's increase opportunities andlet people have a chance to
show what they can do.
Erich Bolz (11:49):
The portrayal of your mom in the initial part of
the books pretty transparent.
What's, what's thatrelationship like now?
Reid Saaris (11:55):
Yeah, with me and my mom, or my mom and my sister.
Erich Bolz (12:00):
Hey, great questions .
Feel free to answer both.
Eric Price (12:04):
Hey, you don't get to ask questions here, reed,
don't?
You know the deal here?
What's up?
Reid Saaris (12:08):
Yeah, I mean, all of us will be getting together
for Christmas coming up and wespend good time together and you
know, with the book, we'veunpacked some of these issues
together.
So it's yeah, it's easy toconvey somebody else as having
missed out on potential orunderestimated somebody.
So there's a little bit of thatabout my mom, which is maybe
what you're referring to interms of my perspective versus
(12:30):
hers on this.
A big part of the story for mewas I came, you know, ripping
out of this set of childhoodexperiences and, you know,
social justice motivated as ayoung educator, and you know
part of that is saying, oh man,I see how these other people are
really screwing things up andthey don't get it, and that
notion, I think, caused me a lotof trouble.
(12:52):
To have that attitude aboutother people and to say, well, I
got it figured out and I gotthe data and I know how, to, you
know, believe in people andother people don't have it can
be a really toxic way toapproach things.
And so some of the irony and, Ithink, interesting part of the
story over time is how do wecome to understand, as educators
in our own journey, the waysthat we are misunderstanding
(13:15):
people, the ways that we havenot yet figured things out, the
things that we have yet to learn, and I think you know a little
bit of poking fun at myself morethan anything throughout the
book to start to say, hey, youknow, here's this guy walking
around pretending he knows theanswer to this thing, when he's
doing the very things that he'sconcerned with other people
doing and not realizing it.
(13:36):
And that's the position where Ithink we all find ourselves into
some extent.
We want to, as educators, enterthe room and say I got the
answer, I got it figured out, Igot this and that, and you all
have a lot to learn.
And the reality is we have alot to learn and it's hard and
it's vulnerable, and so that'swhat I tried to do in the book
was make it a real journey ofnot somebody saying I'm writing
(13:59):
the book because I have all theanswers, but I'm writing the
book because I've got a lot ofmistakes to share.
And, yes, I started out bypointing out mistakes and others
, but eventually got pushed tothe point where I could really
acknowledge those in myself,even on tough issues like race
and gender and what we expect ofothers.
Eric Price (14:14):
So, Reed, let me just ask you this Can I get this
right that if I write a book, Ican clean up all the crap
that's happened in my family?
Is that what I can do?
I just want to get that clear.
Reid Saaris (14:26):
Yes, yes, Perfect.
Eric Price (14:29):
So when we start to talk about some of those
inequalities, what are thethings that you would say, hey,
this is how we can start to movethat system that we haven't
moved for a century and a half.
What are those steps that youthink that we should get to
where we can have more of anequitable education system?
Reid Saaris (14:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I do think it involvesa bunch of nerdy stuff on the
one hand, a bunch of nerdy stufflike funding formulas and
teacher credentialing andassignment and who gets into
which classes and the masterschedule and how we orient that.
But I think the sort of themethroughout the book, that is the
(15:10):
sort of a little more humanthan technical, is that we have
to start seeing the potentialand possibility in others,
because I was in programs thatwere not especially diverse as a
student and so I missed out ona lot of learning.
And so the sort of other sideof the kid across the hall is it
(15:31):
can refer to Aaron and Jamie,but it also refers to me and if
I'm separated out from folkswith different experiences, my
learning is severely diminished.
And at a very fundamental level,learning is the incorporation
of difference into our minds.
If you walk into a classroom asa student or a teacher and you
(15:51):
aren't encountering somethingdifferent than what you already
think and you're not grapplingwith that and incorporating that
into your mind at the brainlevel, you haven't learned
anything.
And so if we're havinghomogeneity of experiences as
leaders, as educators, asstudents, I think we're having
only a partial and a relativelymore impoverished education.
(16:11):
So I think the biggest thing todo to address a lot of these
challenges is we need to haveexperiences on a day-to-day
basis with people who aredifferent from our experiences
and backgrounds.
Eric Price (16:22):
And does the system push back Reid?
What is the push back from thesystem on that homogeneity?
Reid Saaris (16:27):
I mean there's a push towards separation.
We have increasing residentialsegregation, we have increasing
separation when it comes to whogoes to school where.
And then the programs that I'vebeen working on AP and IB
programs they have tended to berelatively separate, and so the
more I'm exposed to something,the more I like it as a basic
(16:47):
tendency, when you look atimages and words and all these
sorts of things.
So what is our exposure?
And then that sort ofself-perpetuates right.
And so there has to be, I think, leadership coming in to break
that cycle and say, hey, Ibelieve that kids of every
background can do this.
I believe people of differentbackgrounds can live in the same
neighborhood and I'm going toinvest in that and I'm going to
(17:07):
spend time there and then sortof break that cycle towards how
we think about things and whatwe're exposed to and what we're
aware of and what we like.
Eric Price (17:15):
All right, after the break we'll be back for more
with Reid Sarris right here onOutliers in Education Not by SEL
(17:49):
expert Dr Greg Benner.
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These strategies they work.
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Erich Bolz (18:05):
He's telling us strategies that we can implement
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Ad VO (18:08):
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That's effectivenessorg slashworkshops.
Eric Price (18:27):
Welcome back to Outliers in Education.
Today we're deep inconversation with author,
education activist and candidatefor the Washington State
Superintendent, reid Sarris.
Erich Bolz (18:36):
In the part of the world that I live in, I live on
the dusty side of the cascades.
In the part of the world that Ilive in, it's not uncommon to
hear there is no white privilege, there is no gender privilege.
How do we begin to actuallyphysically unpack that?
Reid Saaris (18:48):
Yeah, I mean back in the classroom as a teacher,
so drawn back to what we'retalking about in the classroom,
because we try to engage allthese things down.
And what we're talking about asa class is that there are ways
to get to the bottom of aquestion like that Do these
things exist?
And so we've just been enjoyingthe power of experimental
method as a way to get an answerto a question like that, and so
(19:09):
when you say that this type ofprivilege doesn't exist, you can
simply start to test it.
You know, and for folks whoaren't aware, there's just so
many interesting studies to lookup and say, hey, if I change
somebody's name to a name thatsounds like it's of a different
background, you're gonna seefewer callbacks for a job
(19:30):
opportunity.
When you lower the curtain atthe orchestra and do the
auditions, you're gonna have anincrease in women who are
getting selected to participatein the orchestra, because
there's a male female bias inselection for the orchestra.
And so to me, those are youknow, they're worthwhile
questions and discussions.
Absolutely you should questionthe notion of do these things
(19:51):
exist if I haven't seen it andexperienced it.
Let's get some data and let'sget some evidence, and the
evidence is strong in a varietyof ways.
It doesn't mean that every thingthat everybody came up with
about bias or prejudice is true,but I think the evidence is
really powerful to see a widevariety of ways in which it does
show up, and that's what we didwith the AP and IB programs.
(20:14):
And when you get down to datatoo, I think it can lower
people's defensiveness If I sayhey, there's a set of students
in our school who haven't beenencouraged to participate in
advanced courses by any adult.
It may have to do with theadult at home and may have to do
that with the adult at school,but what we know is that
encouragement by any adult toparticipate at least this was in
(20:35):
some of our early data Ihaven't looked at the most
recent any student who'sencouraged to participate by
adult is four times as likely tosign up and get involved.
So we don't need to talk somuch about who didn't encourage
who.
But let's say we have anopportunity here.
We have an opportunity withkids who are excited.
They have the motivation thatteachers say is important to
participate.
They have a B and C that aregonna make them likely to be
(20:57):
successful in advanced courses.
Let's have that encouragingconversation and start to shift
the data based on facts ratherthan accusations or
recommendations or things likethat.
Eric Price (21:09):
So, reed, we've been Bullsie and I've been in this
business for about 30 years Eachabout 60 years.
So we've seen this pendulumswinging back and forth, but one
of the things that I think hasreally impacted both Bullsie and
I is this idea about belonging.
So that seems to be a subjectthat you've kind of picked up on
(21:32):
and pointed towards.
Why do you think that's such abig deal in this context of
equality?
Reid Saaris (21:37):
I think it's at the if you think of a hierarchy of
needs, it's at the base of thehierarchy of needs.
It's a gateway to so much else.
If I don't feel like I belongsocially, I got alarm signals
going off.
It's a threatening environment,Like Claude Steele describes it
.
It's like there's a snake inthe room and you're sort of on
alert.
And so then you say, well, canyou focus on this thing over
here?
And you say, well, there's asnake in the room.
(21:59):
I don't know if I'm belong here,I don't know if I'm safe here,
I don't know how people aregonna treat me and all those
sorts of things.
So we've worked with a lot ofteachers to support their desire
to increase belonging and to dobelonging rich activities.
We've also done belongingactivations where you really
share data with kids.
Hey, 50% of kids of colorentering AP for the first time
(22:21):
worry that they won't belong.
So you take it from I don'tbelong to.
That's how a lot of people likeme feel in this experience and
so that's okay and normal, notsomething that suggests I
shouldn't be there.
And then the last one we did iswe had kids write postcards to
appear where they would say atthe end of this experience in AP
(22:42):
, what would I tell people likeme who are coming in to the
courses and so give thempointers and have a sense of hey
, this is experience of peoplelike me and that's normal to go
through worrying I don't belongand finding my path and those
sorts of things.
So I think that's a keyquestion and really important
area.
Eric Price (22:57):
And let me ask you this, reed so this is just from
the hip, but do you think thatmost schools ask those questions
of students like do you feellike you belong?
Reid Saaris (23:07):
Oh man, increasingly I think they have
been, but I don't know that it'sa systematic effort and I think
it's always.
There's always an opportunityto find better ways to use and
collect data.
At schools we sort of oftenfind ourselves the sort of data
rich and insight or informationand knowledge poor, and so I
(23:29):
think that's one where we justfound tremendous value and when
folks close the gaps in accessto advanced courses, there was a
transformation in belonging andso we sort of tracked that and
I think it's a huge unlock.
I think it's a huge sort ofbaseline thing that schools
should absolutely be looking atand tracking and addressing when
there are challenges there.
Erich Bolz (23:50):
Reed, we know that you have thrown your hat in the
ring for state superintendent ofpublic construction.
Curious as to what prompted youto run?
Obviously you have.
You've forgotten more aboutpolicy than EP, and I know, and
we consider ourselves policywonks, so you know what a box
the state superintendent is inwith regard to policy to some
extent.
So what changes or green shootswould you hope to see as a
(24:14):
result of your role as statesuperintendent, given some
fairly significant policyconstraints For me?
Reid Saaris (24:22):
what prompted me to run was my experience with
teachers, students and leadersall across the state and across
the country who are makingbreakthroughs.
It's a, you know, teaching is areally challenging.
It's increasingly challenging.
We have all sorts of things,you know, headwinds lately, but
I see people make breakthroughsand I don't think that there is
(24:43):
to your question about policy.
I don't think there's a policysilver bullet.
There is no button that anystate superintendent can press
to.
You know, because in our stateyou're talking about over a
million students in relationshipwith tens of thousands of
teachers on a daily basis.
It's incredibly complex.
It's the largest sharedundertaking that we have in
(25:05):
Washington state.
From a resource standpoint,people standpoint, dollar
standpoint, this is just animmense undertaking, and so, to
me, I was prompted to getinvolved because the last seven
years, we've seen declines instudent learning, fallen out of
the top half of states in termsof student learning, according
to NAEP.
We've seen steady declines instudent mental health, and these
(25:27):
things are not just a result ofthe pandemic.
We've seen declines before thatand we're 40th out of 50 states
, which means 39 other statesare doing it better, which to me
is a travesty.
We have the shared values inWashington state to address this
.
We have the economic resourcesWe've been one of the fastest
growing economies for multiplerecent years running.
We have the research andinsights and data collection,
(25:50):
and so to me, it's aboutleadership that connects those
dots.
And I actually thrive in anenvironment where you don't have
that magic button to press,because with equal opportunity
schools, we have no power overanybody.
What we had was the mission workand the sort of goals that we
shared with people and that theyshared with us, and we had deep
(26:12):
data and worked together tosolve challenging problems, and
so that resulted.
I think by the time I left, wehad been hired by more than a
thousand school and districtleaders across the country where
they were actually paying ournonprofit to come in and help
them solve problems.
So if they don't even have topay me because I'm state
(26:33):
superintendent and we have theteam there, we'll come in and
solve problems with people andwe'll use the data and I'm
obsessed with where can you makethe biggest difference in
people's lives and what's goingto make the biggest difference
to address the challenges thatteachers are facing and things
like that.
So I say you get focused on theproblems that are most
significant and you solve themtogether.
There is no magic formula,magic policy, but it's the work
(26:55):
I've been doing and I see a hugeneed for that here in
Washington.
Erich Bolz (26:58):
Just a short follow up.
What would you see your twoyears into your role as state
superintendent?
What would you see as one tothree key green shoots?
Reid Saaris (27:07):
So I put out a paper recently, early summer,
with the Children's Alliancecalled when Can we Find Hope
During the Epidemic ofHopelessness Facing Our Children
, and I think mental health istop of the list.
We declared it an emergency, Ithink, over two years ago.
Our data findings were that 58%of Washington adolescents are
(27:28):
experiencing symptoms of anxietyand depression, with one in 10
having attempted suicide in thelast year, and it's just at a
level that's inconceivable to me.
And the part of what pushed meinto running was we put together
a lot of data and insights onthis.
We interviewed people aroundthe state, around the country,
around the world what are thebest strategies?
(27:48):
And it was long into I don'tknow, a year plus after it was
declared a state of emergency.
We went around to people and wesaid we're new to this, but
we're trying to pull togethersome insights and let us know if
we're on the right track andthis is useful.
And the response generally wasthank you for bringing us
together around this, aroundevidence and data of what's
possible so that we can actuallyget to solutions here.
(28:10):
And I was thinking that's whatI love to do, let's do this.
And so we've come up with a setof solutions in the paper that
I think will be reviewed thisyear by the state board and
probably the legislature.
That says, you know, at $40 astudent you could have really
rigorous, evidence-basedstrategies that will address
issues for most of the studentswho are struggling with anxiety
and depression, which is thebiggest driver of mental health
(28:32):
struggle in our state.
So that would be a big one.
Eric Price (28:34):
And to put that into context, reed, how much?
If that's $40 per kid, how muchare we spending per kid and FTE
for the state of Washingtonabout?
Reid Saaris (28:42):
For overall spend I forget the exact figure maybe
around 15,000 students thesedays.
So, yeah, 40 is a really smallportion, and we have a lot of
federal funding to be able to dothe startup costs and launch
for systems like this.
So, yeah, I think that's a bigone.
I think we should follow theevidence-based strategies around
(29:04):
, whether it's paraeducators,tutors and learning support,
because we do have not only theachievement gap that's caused by
opportunity gaps that peoplehave been talking about a lot,
but we have a lot of pandemicgaps and things there that some
areas within our state, someschools and some other states
have aggressively addressed andsupported, so that you can find
(29:24):
schools and districts wherestudent learning is above where
it was pre-pandemic levels, andso I think those are the types
of scaled solutions that weshould have accessible to
everyone.
And then the third sort ofgreen shoot to me is getting
serious about what high schooland beyond planning means, and
again, this is a case wherewe're behind most other states,
(29:45):
and I think that surprisespeople to know and that one's
not rocket science, but it doestake bringing people together
around evidence and buildingsolutions collaboratively, which
is what I love to do.
Eric Price (29:56):
Yeah, reid.
Well, now is the time thatBullsy.
We have asked him to summarizethis whole thing.
Bullsy, you got a lot ofboulders here.
What do you got for a summary,my man?
Erich Bolz (30:08):
Well, you caught me writing my last note.
I make a commitment to keep itto a page, so it's an awful lot
to distill inside of one pagetoday.
So bottom line, starting rightfrom the top, opportunities are
still inequitable.
I think it's absolutelyfantastic that he's working
part-time at Rainier Beach as ateacher right now.
Boy, is it tough out there.
(30:28):
So knowing that we've got astate superintendent candidate
who's plugged into that everydayreality, I think really will
resonate with folks.
I really appreciate it in thebook and this was a learning for
me.
I hadn't thought about the factthat advanced level classes
were really another Jim Crowresponse to integration and I
think that's something that'simportant to think about.
I think the word that's goingto resonate with our educator
(30:50):
friends out there when we reallypull this apart and test the
data is disproportionality.
It's something that we hear allthe time and our requirements
are around reporting, but whatwould happen if our best and
brightest outputs, our students,looked like a slice of the
communities we serve?
Great things would happen, bothin terms of holistic life
(31:13):
outcomes but also increasing ourGDP.
It's the best investment we canmake, both in individuals and
in societies.
The collective so many parallelswith our outlier study.
It's almost as if CEE and Reedhave been doing parallel work
for the longest time.
But one of the things that welook at in the outlier study and
those successful schools wefound in those 23
(31:33):
characteristics and conditionsthat we found across those
schools none of them were statemandated or prescribed
improvement efforts, by the way.
What we did find is studentswho are encouraged to elaborate
on personal goals and outcomesare students who tend to achieve
it at higher levels.
So lots of parallels in thatresearch.
On a personal level.
Always easier to critiqueothers than to change ourselves
(31:55):
and reflect on our ownapproaches and performances.
So I think that was just apowerful reminder and a theme in
Reed's book Across the Board.
Really like the answer aroundhow do we start to break down
notions of there is no whiteprivilege, there is no gender
privilege.
I think if we could encouragepeople to test their beliefs
against the empirical evidence,we would be further along as
(32:16):
opposed to throwing mud at eachother for our own personal
points of view.
So I thought that was a reallysmart answer.
I love what Reed brought uparound four times more likely to
persist in these classes Ifyou've got an adult who says
have you considered it?
Or you should do it, becausethat just jives with so much we
know about the power of onecaring adult inside of the
school house to transform achild's education or to ensure
(32:39):
that child actually becomes agraduate.
Public ed the largest sharedeffort we have in our state from
a scope and scale and resourcestandpoint Mental health in
terms of a green shoot, reallystood out to me and it validated
that I think we're on the righttrack and we think of so many
of our podcast guests, fromMaria Barrera to Jim Sporelater,
greg Benner and AramChristopher, all talking about
(33:02):
different aspects of surfacingstudent trauma and addressing
that mental health.
Thanks, reed, we feel likewe're on the right track and I
think, to conclude, maybe jobone, it's to foster belonging,
those social connections andthat growth mindset we want all
students to have the potentialto say I am an AP student, I
belong here and, reed, thank you, it was just great to be on
(33:22):
with the Kindred spirit today.
Reid Saaris (33:24):
Awesome.
This is great.
Yes, I really appreciated theopportunity and what a good
conversation about the good workhappening.
Eric Price (33:31):
Reed, is there anything else you'd like to
touch on that Bowles didn't getin that exhaustive summary.
Reid Saaris (33:36):
No, I think you covered it all.
I would just say that you know,yeah, folks want to follow
along with what we're up to.
It's read for wasschoolscomREID, the number four,
waschoolscom, and then the bookwe were talking about is the Kid
Across the Hall.
Where can they find that?
Anywhere books are sold.
Eric Price (33:54):
Reed, I want to thank you for being on the
program and really your heart tosay, hey, let's do the right
thing, because that's what I'mhearing you and I think that
Bowlesy and I are very much inthat same headspace of we now
have seen it, we've been in itand now we want to make sure
that we try to make it as rightas possible for all kids.
So I want to thank you forbeing on the show and for your
(34:17):
efforts to try to do that verysame thing.
So thank you, yes, thank you somuch.
Erich Bolz (34:20):
I really appreciate it, and thanks to all of you for
joining us today on Outliers inEducation.
You can find this episode andmore anywhere you listen to your
favorite podcast or visit usonline at effectivenessorg.
Until next time, this has beenOutliers in Education.
Ad VO (34:39):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive changein your school or district, take
a moment to visit CEE, theCenter for Educational
Effectiveness, ateffectivenessorg.
Better data, better decisions,better schools Outliers in
Education.
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