February 1, 2023 • 43 mins
Former long-time superintendent Nick Brossoit's advice is crystal clear - start with an unwavering love for and commitment to kids, and everything else will fall into place. In this deeply moving and insight-filled episode, we spend time with Nick as he stares down the end of his life and reflects back on his 33 years in education.
In 2020, Nick was diagnosed with terminal cancer and at the time of this recording, having far outlived his doctors' prognoses, was at his home in Lynden, Wash., on end-of-life hospice care.
Nick has taken maximum advantage of his remaining time to write the book, "Love the People in Line" (2022) in which he shares the story of his cancer journey, his foundations in faith and his remarkable career in public education.
This is an inspirational episode for any educator, listening to Nick's passion and focus on finding what's best for kids always and never bending to the influences of the politics that face all educational leaders.
You can find Nick's book and more about his journey at the selection of links below:
- Love the People in Line: Through the Eyes of my Heart (2022) - all proceeds benefit the Eagle's Nest Children's Home in Guatemala.
- "Former schools superintendent reflects on cancer journey, faith and importance of being present in new book," (April 17, 2022) - article published by My Edmond News.
- Nick's Cancer Journey Update (January 2023) - update posts by Nick on LinkedIn seen by more than 10,000 people.
You can find out more about this podcast, the Outliers study and the Center for Educational Effectiveness at effectiveness.org.
"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.
Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Price (00:14):
Sometimes life takes a turn that brings everything
into focus, the wisdomaccumulated over a lifetime will
meet the reality of what's trulyimportant in the here. And now.
Today we're going to explorethat intersection with an
incredibly special guest on thisepisode of "Outliers in
Education." Hey, everybody,we're glad you're tuning into
(00:51):
the podcast today. I'm Ericprice here with my co host, Eric
Bowles from the Center foreducational effectiveness. We're
all in for a truly specialconversation today with longtime
superintendent, leadership coachand author Nick brasen. Nick, as
life happens has been battlingpancreatic cancer since he was
diagnosed with it in 2020. Hehas outlived doctors prognosis,
(01:13):
and he has used that time toamong other things, published
his new book, Love the people inline, which came out a year ago
in March. I mean, we're going toface our own mortality someday
bowls. And I guess the questionis, how do we how do we all deal
with that?
Erich Bolz (01:26):
Well, EP, that really is a great question,
indeed. And I've thought longand hard about how you know how
I might respond. And I think allI can say is from afar, sort of
watching Nick's journey throughsocial media and and knowing
Nick's reputation as an educatorroughly at the same era, all I
can say is, I'm incrediblyinspired by the courage and by
(01:47):
his willingness to use his timefor the best in writing a book.
And I think his approach tomortality, which most of us, if
you're like me choose not toconfront has just been inspiring
to a lot of us.
Eric Price (02:00):
Nick, we are super glad to have you on the show
today. How are you feeling?
Nick Brossoit (02:05):
Well, all right, I'm blessed to have good pain
pills.
Eric Price (02:09):
Well, Nick, my own background, as you and I have
spoken. When I was 19, I wasgiven a at best 25% chance to
live with a rare form of cancer.
And as I began to look at mylife going in, I remember
there's a salient point that wasfrozen in my memory, I'm on a
gurney, I'm getting ready to gointo a surgery, I don't know if
I'm going to make it out of,even if I make it out, I've got
(02:31):
less than a one in four chancethat I'm going to make it past
that for more than a year. And Istarted to think what's really
important. And for me, thatfocus just was laser like, like,
it was relationships, and it waspeople. So when you now are at
that similar kind of state,almost of knowing there's this
calendar, what what things havecome into focus for you in both
(02:53):
personal life and maybe evenyour reflection in education?
Nick Brossoit (02:58):
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm glad that you beat
the statistics, because you'vedone a lot in your career in
your life, and the world is abetter place for having you be
in it for the time that youwere, are and still are. I don't
know, I think the relationshipspart for me has always been
pretty important. So I don'tfeel like there's been a huge
change in that other than to bemaybe more present, I was
(03:19):
assumed I had more time withsome people. So to be more
present with the people thatI've been with. And even the
extra time I've had now I thinkhas been helpful. I'd already
retired from education. So sortof felt like I left my best on
the field prior to retiring. I'mglad I didn't have to practice
through some of what educatorshave been through in recent
(03:40):
years. I'm not sure I would havebeen as graceful as some of them
have been in dealing, dealingwith some of what they've had to
deal with. Probably the mostprofound thing for me is I've
always had a relationship withGod. And even though I was in
the public sector for 32 years,I was a Christian through all
that as well. And I just, Iwasn't one that you know, or
(04:02):
buttons and funny hats and stuffto draw attention to it. I just
tried to live what I feel Godcalled all of us to do, which is
to love Him and love others. Soa lot of my book and the stories
and the things that I tried todo through education was just
bringing God's love andcompassion to people who maybe
don't have that or hadn'texperienced that. And I was
(04:24):
never worried about things beingattributed inappropriately or
incorrectly. I figured that'sGod's to sort out not mine. So I
just tried to do my best withwhat was in front of me and all
that.
Erich Bolz (04:35):
Nick, I think it's one thing to retire and I think
it must be another thingaltogether to we you know, we
retire we reflect and then to bedealing with pancreatic cancer
and knowing that you know yourtime is short has, as you
reflected on your career haveHave there been changes in
perspective have have thingsthat mattered more maybe come
into clarity or focus.
Nick Brossoit (04:55):
You mean like looking back when I've done
something different or maybe
Erich Bolz (04:59):
Not even looking back, you know, would you have
done something different? Ithink that's I think that's a
great point of clarification. Ithink my wonder is, you know, I
think I know what was importantin my career. But if I were
diagnosed with a with a terminalillness and had a very short
time to live, I think myperspective on what was really
important, and maybe what was itmight have changed somewhat. And
(05:20):
I'm just wondering if you hadany of those reflections?
Nick Brossoit (05:23):
No. And fact, probably, I would say, if there
were things that I look back andwish I'd have done different, I
would feel those are more ofregrets than reflections. I
don't regret any part of what Idid in 32 years, my 22 as a
superintendent, what have you, Ijust feel like I had my eye on
the ball pretty much all thattime. But what was important, I
(05:45):
would get criticized sometimesfor not participating in some of
the adults meetings and thingsthat people thought were so
important, but my heart and Ifeel like God's already always
steered me through my hearttowards the work that was
important. And I would ratherI'd rather be on the phone for
20 minutes with a parent who wasunhappy about some service she
(06:07):
was or wasn't getting, then goto a meeting and listen to other
people talk for 20 minutes andnot Sandy's.
Eric Price (06:13):
Just as a point of clarification, you would have
had more meetings, Nick.
Nick Brossoit (06:19):
And I really, what I really liked about being
a superintendent is I couldcontrol how many at least I was
responsible for and how longthey were. Yeah, right.
Eric Price (06:29):
So Nick, you I've read your book, love the people
in line, I think it's fantastic.
Could you tell us a little bitabout if some of the our
listeners that might not knowabout it? Well,
Nick Brossoit (06:39):
I never really sought out to write a book. And
people think that, in fact, mywhole career, I've not really an
ambitious person, I've just hadopportunities and tried to make
the best of them when I hadthem, and then more
opportunities would show up. Andso Okay, fine. I in fact, I
never plan to be asuperintendent either. couldn't
even tell you what they did whenI was in education. Now I know
(07:02):
and I'm not sure if it is thatinterested. But the book itself
was really kind of a journal.
For me, I went through somepretty bumpy things in my
childhood. And being a Christianand trying to reconcile how
things like that can happen topeople and how much of that is
responsible for people doingthings to people or, you know,
just rainfalls and everybody,just random things. But so the
(07:25):
book for me was kind of ajournal. And I would work use
that to work my way throughstuff, and collect and capture
stories of how other people, youknow, God use them to breathe
into my life and as use me tomaybe impact others, through my
career and through other thingsI've done. So the book was
really kind of a collection ofthis stuff. And then I was asked
to speak at a conference. Ican't remember it was a year or
(07:48):
two ago, and the person who puton the conference, he wanted to
get to know me better. So afterI spoke and everything, I said,
Well, here's a manuscript ofsomething that's kind of a
collection of my thoughts. Andnone of it had any of the cancer
journey in it. It was all beforethat. So I gave him that. And he
came back after I got back froma Christmas break. And he said,
(08:09):
Well, this needs to be a book.
And I said, Well, I just don'treally, by this time I had
cancer, I said, I just don'treally have the energy and the
whatever to push that way again.
So he said, No, I'll take careof that for you. So he went out.
And he hired an editor who camein to my house and at would ask
me questions to kind of fill inbits with the manuscript. And
(08:29):
then we captured the wholecancer journey and the last part
of the book, and referencepeople too, if they wanted to
keep up with the story, theycould switch over to LinkedIn
where I have a profile, I guess,and I've sort of been using my
LinkedIn platform as a way toupdate people, it's pretty easy.
You know, you put in an entryand it sits there. And the last
(08:51):
one had over 10,000 views. Sothere's, wow, somebody's looking
at it. Yeah, we're taking theproceeds that come to us from
the book, and we're sending themto Eagle's Nest, which is a
mission for children inGuatemala, poor kids that are
it's kind of a Christian basedorphanage concept. My wife went
there on a mission a coupleyears ago, and just felt like it
(09:14):
was a really concentrated focuson people who need it the most,
and who have the least and so I,you know, I'm, I'm not probably
changing their revenue streamtoo much, but we're doing, we're
doing something to make adifference there. And, and then
I feel good, because I neverreally wanted to make any money
off what God's done in my life.
(09:36):
That just seems odd. So I likethe fact that, you know, thanks
to my retirement and socialsecurity stuff, we don't have to
rely on the book to live. Yeah.
Eric Price (09:46):
When you reflect back on that, Nick, was there
any big epiphanies when you didthe process, I know writing
bowls and I doing some of thatwriting? I think there's there's
this process that we learn a lotanything that you learned from
the Book and reflecting
Nick Brossoit (10:01):
Well, when I was in the hospital back in August
of 2020, and they gave me thediagnosis and stuff. I was
praying and I was asking God,what's going on? You know, I'm
just been told I've got sixmonths to a year to live in this
advanced cancer that spread tomy liver. I mean, not good news,
medically. And pancreatic canceris a different kind of cancer.
(10:23):
It's got, scientifically somevery aggressive tendencies and
abilities to mutate and do allkinds of stuff. That's why it's
so deadly. But anyway, I waspraying and asked God, what's
going on? He said, he said,Don't worry, the rest of your
life here is secure, and yourlife and heaven is secure. And I
wasn't trying to be a smartass,or anything, although my wife
tells me I can do that withouttrying. I said to God, I said,
(10:49):
Well, you know, how, how can Inot worry about it? I mean, this
is, this is a pretty differentplan that I had for my
retirement. He said, Just Justhang in there, basically, and
share your story from a faithperspective. So my mission or my
calling, whether it's the placesI've been asked to speak, or
this interview, and others, I'vedone the book, it's all it's all
(11:09):
been about being obedient toGod, asking me to share my
experiences from a faith basedperspective on this journey. For
me, that's just kind of how I'velived. I'm glad that I've had a
relationship with God. And hewith me for since I can
remember, and so I'm doing whatI've been doing. And other
people find inspiration fromthat. But there's nothing novel
(11:31):
about what I'm doing now. It'sjust cancer. It could be it
could be something else. And formost people hearing this
podcast, it's going to besomething at some point.
Erich Bolz (11:40):
We we talked about that in in pre production prep
for certain, Nick. And so one ofthe things I want to ask about
just shifting gears slightly ishow would you describe your your
leadership legacy? I mean, youare in two large districts as
superintendent for more than twodecades. Yeah.
Nick Brossoit (11:58):
Yeah, I look back at that statistically. And it is
kind of the anomaly. And what'sthe best way for me to describe
this? Well, let me let me answerthat by sharing a hopefully
entertaining, but I thinkinsightful story that kind of
separates me and how I did mywork as a superintendent, as a
leader, from other people. I wasnew out of the School of
(12:18):
Education. I graduated from Plu.
And I was looking for my firstteaching job. And I had two or
three other offers. So when Iwent into this interview, I was
pretty confident I was going tobe working somewhere. But I
didn't know where yet. So I gointo the for this interview for
high school social studiesposition, and the principal and
the assistant principal, call meinto their office. And they say,
(12:38):
Hey, Nick, you know, we justwant to let you know, we're
really interested in seeing youhere. But there's a big issue
with the school board, and theydon't want to see a teacher be a
coach. So you're gonna you'rebasically interviewing for a job
where we were removing theteacher, because he didn't do a
good job. And the conclusionwas, it was because he was
coaching. So if you get anyquestions in the interview about
(12:59):
coaching, you know, be sure tobe mindful that we're just
hiring you as a teacher, we justwant you to come in as a
teacher. And I'm listening tohim. And I'm, you know, my
internal radar is just goingcrazy on so many levels. But I
was there and I figured what theheck. So I went into the
interview. And there's thistable, big round table setting
and probably 15 people there.
(13:22):
And each person is taking a turnasking me a question. I'm doing
pretty well, I, I'm answeringthe questions in a way that's
consistent with what I believeand certainly consistent with
best practice for teachingstuff. Then we get to this lady
who looks like she hadn't had abowel movement in a couple of
months. And she says, Well, whatdo you think about teachers who
(13:46):
coach, you know, and I couldtell, this was this was that
moment I had been, I had beenwarned.
Erich Bolz (13:52):
And I literally one right answer. Yeah.
Nick Brossoit (13:55):
And I looked at her and I said, Well, I think
it's great, I think, I think, agood teacher, a good teacher and
a good coach crossover in somany ways. And I just think it's
awesome. And the influences youcan have on young people in both
the classroom athletic field isone you shouldn't miss. And then
(14:16):
she looked, she looked likesomething actually had moved by
that time. So she, she comesback and she says, she says,
Well, what would you do ifyou're offered a job just as a
teacher and not as a coach? AndI was pissed by now, but I'm
not. Not in a rude way. But Isaid looked right at her and
said, Well, I would probablyvolunteer. We went through the
(14:36):
rest of the interview a biteverybody farewell and surprise,
surprise, I didn't get offeredthat job. But here's how it's
relevant to the question youasked. And I gotta be careful
both the principal and theassistant principal, who were in
that high school who hadbasically swallowed the pill.
The board has given him aboutwhat we're going to do, we're
(14:57):
not going to do and I understandall that like I can tell you
stories about all that stuff,too. Both of them went on to be
superintendents in the state,neither of which lasted very
long. And the reason and theopposite with why I think I
lasted long is my North Star wasdoing what's best for kids
always didn't matter if it wasgonna get me in trouble or not.
(15:20):
In their instance, at a prettyearly place in their career,
they were already bending to theinfluences of the politics of
the position. Well, as soon asyou soon as you kiss a pig, in
this business, other livestockwill line up. So you, so unless
you enjoy that or think you'regonna somehow outsmart the
(15:43):
audience that wants to use yourauthority to accomplish their
will, which is most of whoapproaches you, then you better
then you better stand forsomething more substantial. And
my North Star was always whatwas best for students and
learning. I have another story Icould share if you want to hear
about that. But I don't want tobore you with those.
Erich Bolz (16:04):
You didn't bore us with the first one. I get Yeah,
that's another livestock oneroll right into that. Let's,
let's hear one more story.
Nick Brossoit (16:10):
This is that dynamic between the
superintendent and their board,which, you know, for a lot of
people is a pretty hard positionto be in, because in fact, you
like your job and you want to bein the position to do the work.
But you know, how far are yougonna go and at what price? So,
this I actually was in theTumwater school district and
have fond memories of bothtomato and Edmonds. Tomato is
(16:32):
about 6000 students and Edmondshas over 20,000 in cash. There's
lots of discussions you can haveabout the size of a district and
what comes with that. Butanyway, I was sitting at my desk
in my office one day, and theboard president comes in
wonderful man, great man. Healso was an UnderSheriff for, I
think, Thurston County, or LewisCounty. So he was in uniform
(16:56):
with his gun and his holster inthe whole thing. And he was the
board president that year thatwas going to do my evaluation.
And he comes in my office and hestands in this one spot, and he
says, you know, that teacherwalkout that's coming in a
couple of weeks? Well, I expectyou to run school in the
district on time and onschedule, and to not close your
council school. He didn't ask meany he didn't ask me anything.
(17:18):
He just delivered the the edict.
And I'd only been in the job forfour or five years. And again, I
liked it. So I thought about itand prayed about it and
continued to do my duediligence, I, we, you know,
we've met with all the unions,and we've we concluded we
couldn't safely run school thatday. And if we did, we were
going to have pissyrelationships with everybody for
(17:38):
years. And there just wasn't anupside. If somehow it
miraculously snowed on that day,we'd simply make it up at the
end of the year, and life wouldgo on. So I never had a board
meeting, never brought it up ata board meeting didn't do a
special session didn't bring theboard together in an Executive
Session, because this was areally good man. And he'd got
(17:59):
sideways really fast with theother board members. And he got
sideways with administrators andwith the unions and with the
community, because it would havebeen a explosion over that
issue. A lot of people felt likehe did, just flat out didn't
want to see it happen. A lot ofpeople were very supportive of
the symbolism of what theteachers were doing. But we
weren't going to change any ofthat we weren't going to change
(18:21):
gravity or do anything if we to,if we'd have done that. So
anyway, the day came, I put itin my weekly notes to the board
before it happened. I just said,Look, I've looked at all this
stuff. You guys are paying me tomake some of these tough
decisions. And my decision iswe're not going to have school
on that day. Do you have anyquestions? Call me, sorry, you
know, on to the next thing. So aboard meeting came and went,
(18:44):
nobody came and spoke. He neversaid anything. It's now two
weeks after the decision. Hecomes back to my office and he
stands at the same exact spot.
In my office. He's wearing hisuniform, and he's got his gun.
Hopefully it's still under theflap, but he's got his gun on
it. And I'm nervous. I'm notthat confident. I'm not even 40
(19:05):
yet. And he says, Nick, youremember, you know, about four
weeks when I stood right here.
And I told you, I expected youto run school at De nada. And I
said, Yeah, remember? He says,Well, you didn't you didn't
listen to me and you ran school.
And I just want you to know wehired the right superintendent.
Wow. Wow. And it doesn't alwaysfall that way. And if you were
(19:29):
one of the people that I consultor advise, I might have given a
different directions on how tohandle that safer. But by doing
it the way I did it, a treenever fell in the forest. He
never got hurt. The board didn'tget hurt. We didn't have all the
drama. I just took it allmyself. And so I think that's,
you know, you asked me what'sthe difference in my leadership
(19:51):
versus other people. Noteverybody. I'm sure there's lots
of great superintendents. Butone I didn't bend to politics. I
did do what was best forstudents and learning in the
district in spite of thepolitics. And then when it came
to my own employment, I againput the district and the kids
interest better ahead of my own.
And so, I don't know people maybe kinda kinda like that. We're
(20:12):
in a conversation one time at aschool board meeting, and I was
in trouble for something I knowwhat it was, I was choosing to
feed kids who'd come to schooland they didn't have any money.
I even got a shroud me for thatand all ripped up by one of the
TV stations because I wasessentially feeding kids that
were hungry, and figured we justwork out the finances with their
(20:33):
parents later. So we had somepeople come in, and they were
not many, but a few were upsetat the board meeting was to why
we would feed their kids whenthey wouldn't send them was to
school of food or money. And Ihad to do it lots of editing
when I was sitting there, listento that. But after all that was
over and all the plates stuffwas over, one of my board
members leaned over to me andshe just said, Nick, thanks for
(20:55):
feeding our kids. So I wasblessed with school boards that
kind of let me go and supportedme to do what was best for kids
in the district. And they knew Iwasn't going to cut deals on the
way and that I would go down ifever had to go down, do what was
right for kids. So those kindsof things make a difference. And
(21:16):
now I see. I see stuff that goeson and some of those dynamics
and some of the people that callme and say what buttons should I
push I'm I'm saddened by theexpectations, and the lack of
support that a lot ofsuperintendents are dealing
with, frankly, I've even heardstories about some
(21:37):
superintendents now that if Iwasn't died of cancer, I'd
probably have a contract. But Iwould, I would not stand for for
what some of these guys aredoing. I call him out on it.
Eric Price (21:50):
We're gonna take a short break, and we'll be right
back to talk more with Nickbrasen on this very special
episode of outliers ineducation.
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Eric Price (23:05):
We're back. And we continue to be grateful for the
chance to have this conversationwith former superintendent
author and all aroundinspirational guy Nick bras it
Nikki, you said you had a bumpychildhood and reading your
childhood story in the book. Ithink that is a nice way to put
it. What would you say now toboth principals and to soups?
(23:26):
How do we best deal with kidsthat are dealing with incredibly
hard things at home just likethe story about the lunch?
What's the proper response fromfrom us as leaders?
Nick Brossoit (23:36):
Okay, you start out with this unwavering
unconditional love for kids.
What's best for the kidsindividually, the training that
you do for your staff about howto catch and appropriately refer
and support those kids that areat risk you start there.
Everything else is just thebureaucracy figuring out the how
part and you organize all theadults and every all the
(23:59):
bureaucracy and all thecontracts and all the people
that have got to agree to get inline with that. And that's where
a lot of the heavy liftingcomes. But you don't waver on
that. You just stick to it. Andeventually, the adults will
adjust. You know, I get rambleyhere because I'm on some pretty
heavy drugs. I apologize forthat.
Eric Price (24:20):
That's okay. Boz and I are to with no real reason.
Yeah, but
Nick Brossoit (24:23):
I'm legal. So, so you know, braces work. If you've
ever had orthodontia work thoughthe bar or the wire is a
constant. The individual bandsthat are attached to each tooth,
simply are causing that tooth tohave to move towards the
constant. There's a greatpicture great imagery of
(24:47):
leadership. You hold the bar,you hold a constant expectation
for we're going to do what'sbest for kids and the how part
is us figuring out how eachlittle part of the system that
tooth has to rotate and move.
We're not going to change thebar You know, we're gonna do
what is in the best interest ofkids in their present situation
and in their life and in theirfuture. And then we're going to
figure out over time, how do weget those teeth to move the
(25:09):
lineup in those systems. It's socool, because there's so much of
a holding force to that alignedpractice of what's best for
kids. And let's figure it out asadults, that they are hard to
change. Even if you get somegoofy person in a leadership
role later. It's hard to screwthose places. It's been done,
I've seen it happen. But it's,it's harder. So you want to
(25:32):
practice those things that arebest for students and learning.
And you got to have, you got tohave a superintendent and a
board that's willing to dealwith a little bit of a storm,
and understand it's connected tosomething more important, which
goes back to the kids. I never,I never had somebody come to a
board meeting, and accuse me ofdoing something that was harmful
to kids, or credit criticize mefor our motives and our
(25:56):
intentions. I have gotten toboard meetings when we were
closing schools, as unpopular asthat is, and we had nobody
protest. Because because I wason my feet for two hours in that
school community before theboard meeting, answering every
question and addressing everyissue that they had. And I told
people in one school, I'll bethe last one to leave the
(26:16):
library. And I was I would staythere and I would talk face to
face and listen honestly, withpeople about what we're doing
and why. And I didn't hidebehind layers. And I didn't send
it out in a memo. And I didn'thide behind the board. The board
looked at me in one of thesemeetings that where's everybody
out? You know, they have to havea public hearing to close the
(26:37):
school. And I said, Well, I canget them here if you want. But
But if the goal is just to closethe school list, we just
processed it with peopledirectly. The cool part is I had
a the president of thatparticular PTA ended up
volunteering to be our citizenlead on all of our levies and
bonds. After we close theschool, I mean, these are good
(26:59):
people and and really mostpeople are well intended. I see
a lot of the drama, I see a lotof the drama, of people standing
out in front of the schooldistrict with their signs all
riled up about stuff. How comethe superintendent wasn't out
there talking to him before thecameras showed up? And why did
they have to? Why did they haveto beat so hard on the door, to
get the attention of the systemto address an issue that was
(27:22):
already there? That's the stuffyou know, and maybe it is cancer
or age or drugs or something.
But that's the stuff I look atnow. And I think I don't get it.
I don't understand, you know,you got people that are in a
leadership position, but they'rehiding, and they're not standing
up and saying it out for kids.
And well, I don't think I'd behappy if I was in their district
(27:44):
either. Keep firing I like Ilike your questions.
Erich Bolz (27:49):
Yeah, we want to kind of stay in this leadership
vein, but you know, thinkingabout your career through the
lens of reflection, and weprobably have some things in
common I, I think if I look backat my career, it's not a regret.
But I started awfully young as aprincipal I was principal last
century at 31 years of age,which I think is frankly too
young. If I could talk to myyounger self, I would say a
teacher while you were good atit, be a principal, a 35 be a
(28:11):
principal, a 37. When we thinkabout people who are in their
30s and 40s. Right now thinkingabout moving out of the
classroom or thinking aboutmoving from maybe the
principalship to a centraloffice position. What advice
would you have for those folksin general?
Nick Brossoit (28:24):
Well, it really varies per person. I mean, I
liked what you said, where youcould have done that job longer.
But sometimes the opportunity isthere. And the opportunity needs
you before you're ready for theopportunity. I wasn't like I say
I wasn't ambitious, I didn'tplan it. I didn't set out to be
a superintendent. It wasn't myvision for my life to be a
(28:47):
school superintendent, I dothink you have to think about
where you're at in your life,your family is got to be a main
consideration, because that kindof a career change puts a lot of
pressure on them to deal withyou who's dealing with a new
situation. You know, they sayyou shouldn't do a new job and
get into a doctoral program atthe same time, because it's too
much. Probably true, you know,but I sold the house was having
(29:10):
kids change jobs and did adoctoral program all at the same
time. And, you know, I lived totell about it. So people have
people have different degrees ofcapacity for that kind of stuff.
But talk to people who've madethe change, you know, do your
research, investigate that movewith other people where you're
going and who you're going to beworking with make a difference.
(29:31):
So there's lots of stuff therethat you can cultivate, as you
lead up to making that choice.
Eric Price (29:36):
Nick, we live in this era of communicating,
posting, speaking, and I thinkwe have lost some of that great
art of listening. And I justheard you referenced that with
the people at the school thatwere closing and you know, in in
reference to the drama as well.
So two parts to this question.
(29:57):
Why is listening so important?
And why do we not do it so muchholistically in Educational
Leadership?
Nick Brossoit (30:05):
Well, great questions. And I need to share a
little bit of a story, I guess,leading up to my answer. So are
we okay, on time it has
Eric Price (30:14):
Does it have to do with livestock? No.
Nick Brossoit (30:19):
You're safe.
There's a, there's, I don't knowif they're still in business or
not. But there's a place calledthe Annenberg Institute, they
did a study, many years ago,they were trying to figure out
and prove the premise, thatscene is believing that if you
give people facts andinformation about stuff, they're
more likely to do the rightthing and change their opinions
and change their actions. Sothey took as a test, they would
(30:40):
take people and they put them inone of those audiology booths,
where they can actually cut offany sound, or might, they had a
microphone in there, and theywould put a red apple on the
table in this booth. And theyput people in there. And they'd
say, before they went in, we'regonna put you in a booth where
there's no light, do you thinkyou'll be able to see the apple?
And most people said, yes. Butthey put a high school student
(31:04):
in there. And they said, youknow, you can talk to us through
the microphone, and we're goingto have you in this room where
there's no light, but there'llbe a red apple on the table. Do
you think you'll be able to seeit? She said, Yeah. They said,
why? Well, I think my eyes willadjust, and I'll be able to see
it. Okay, here we go. They puther in the room, close it off,
make sure she's safe andcomfortable. Because she can
(31:26):
talk to them and stuff. She's inthere for about 15 or 20
minutes. And they say, How's itgoing? She says it's going fine.
Can you see the apple? No, justgive it a little more time. So
now we're up to like, 3035minutes, same question, same
answer. So now she's in therefor like 45 minutes. Would you
like to come out? She says,yeah, she comes out in her eyes
(31:49):
adjust and stuff. They say, Didyou see the apple? She said no.
But if I just stayed in there alittle longer, I think I would
have. Okay, what they concludedin that study is that people
have a belief system, theyalready think a certain way
based on life experiences, whatthey've been taught,
(32:10):
indoctrinated into. I mean, thelist of things that influences
who we are at any place in ourlife is long. But their
conclusion is that people theninterpret objective data in a
way that's consistent with theiropinion, the way they see
things. Yeah, so for thisperson, and for a lot of people,
what they believe, is morecontrolling than what they see
(32:32):
or experience in the moment.
Because they have a lot ofallegiance to that belief system
it's been developing over theyears. And what they found is
the only way and this gets backto your question, why is deep
listening and important? Well,they found that the only way
that you can change somebody'sopinion, is to go back and
listen deeply to understand whyis it you believe the moon is
(32:54):
the center of the universe? Orwhy is it that you believe
you'll see that red apple whenall the science and evidence
that you won't? And once they'rethere, and they explained to her
how photons work and how the AIworks, and, you know, literally
got into the science of it? Shesaid, Yeah, I can see what
you're saying. I can see, I cansee what you're saying, and why
(33:17):
you shouldn't be able to seethat apple, but I still think I
would be able to. And this issomebody who is 18 years old,
and we're talking about seeing ared apple in a room with no
light now enter the complexitiesof adults who may or may not
make a living on their beliefsystem who may or may not have
all kinds of social anchors thatthey've dropped on Facebook, or
(33:39):
what are their other socialmedia bomb locations you can go
off on. And they're highlyinvested and associated with a
certain belief system, certainopinions. This is why our
political system is so screwy,people are heavily invested on
their beliefs extreme right orleft. They want to pontificate
to try to convince other peopleto believe the way that they
(34:02):
believe. So they're relentlessin sharing their views, they see
as listening as a sign ofweakness, or it's only to be
done to get leverage on youropponent. I mean, this is the
art of war stuff we're doingnow, in our discourse in our
country, we've lost that commonsense. I'm not sure anybody's
got the penny in their pocketanymore. It's really sad. You
(34:23):
guys are gonna have to livethrough another president
election, president electioncampaign in our country. I'm
not. That's one of the one ofthe silver linings of my
situation. But, but it really istroubling to see so many people
who they don't even fullyunderstand why there's why
they're standing for what theystand for. So the deep listening
(34:44):
to me is a cure for that.
Eric Price (34:46):
So Nick, you've had a lifetime of experience in
listening any other stories ineducation that you think we
should hear that would helpleaders see things or lead
better?
Nick Brossoit (34:59):
Yeah, I'm going to share When it's actually in
the book, so I apologize if it'snot original for this interview,
but I like it on a bunch ofdifferent levels. I was an
assistant principal atBurlington Edison High School,
and a mother was coming inbecause her son, and was
suspended for fighting withanother student. And both of
them got the same consequence.
And then she came in, just liveit. She was yelling and cussing
(35:20):
and waving her fists in the air,my Secretary asked if we should
call the police. And I said, No,you know, you might leave the
door cracked open or something.
But she was, I mean, I've seenupset people before, this was
like cartoon mad, just superangry. And she was going off
about how I was just out to gether son, and we didn't care
(35:42):
about him. And we were alltrying to get her and get them.
And it was just caustic. Now,the normal response, and I was
starting to go through my headwas, you know, administratively,
you know, acknowledging that Iheard her and talking about
rules and safety and all thethings in support of why the
(36:02):
school did what it did. Butinstead, and this is the part
that's maybe unique, I prayed. Iknow, you're not supposed to
pray in school. But I was in myhead for 30 seconds. And I was
listening to her go off on me.
And so rather than respond, Ijust prayed, I said, God, what's
really going on here? Give mesome insight, some clarity about
how to respond and what to sayand what to do. And she stopped,
(36:26):
she was winding down, and shesaid, Well, are you gonna say
anything? And I looked at herand I said, what was on my
heart, and God put it on mymind. I said this, I said, you
really love your son. And you'reafraid that decisions that he's
making could hurt himself orother people. And you're scared
and you don't know for sure whatto do. She's She sat down, her
(36:49):
shoulders relaxed, the yelling,and the screaming stopped, and
she was sobbing, just sobbing.
And I sat down to and I just wasquiet. And we ended up having
this great conversation forabout 35 minutes on what she
could do and what we could do tosupport her son in a
(37:12):
constructive way. And it workedout great. Oddly enough. I saw
this young man years, many yearslater in the airport at SeaTac.
He was waiting for a flight. Ididn't go over and say anything
to him or introduce myselfdidn't ever want to make anybody
feel awkward. You know, after Idanced with him in my career.
(37:32):
But he looked like he was doingokay. I mean, he wasn't he
didn't have a sight out like hewas collecting for dinner. He
must have made it okay. I guessmy point with that is just
simply, I feel especially ifyou're somebody of a person of
faith, just take the time, pushParker ego for a minute, take
(37:53):
the time to ask the question,God, what would you have me
learn? Or what would you want meto do in this situation, and
then, and then go with it. Andalso, if you're in a leadership
position, don't be cavalierabout it. But have some spine
have some backbone to stand upand do what's best for kids and
learning? Because that's notselfish. And I've seen people
(38:14):
who had this courage, but theydidn't have the wisdom or they
didn't have an index to a NorthStar. They just got in fights
all the time over stuff thatwasn't worth five, no eight
Eric Price (38:23):
Biden ears off of everybody and kissing all kinds
of pigs. Yeah.
Nick Brossoit (38:27):
You don't need to do that all the time. Yeah.
Eric Price (38:30):
Nick. Thank you. I think that there are so many
more things that we could delveinto. This is the time of the
show that we're going to flip itover to bowls, and he's going to
summarize for us in hismasterful way. Bowls. What do
you have? For a nutshell for us?
Erich Bolz (38:44):
I've got the whole nut in the nutshell. So So
bottom line, this, this podcastwas really born out of our
positive outlier study, whichis, which is a fantastic read.
And one of the things that wasconsistent in this study was
kids in schools where we seeschools essentially over
performing their demographicsreally have access to high
quality administrators. And Ithink, being able to talk to
(39:05):
Nick today, there's no questionthat he would have set that tone
up and down the organization.
First thing I took away is bemore present. And I think we all
struggle with living in themoment and there can't be enough
people in our lives to remind usthat presence is important. I
think almost all of us went intoeducation, regardless of our
faith background, because, youknow, we ultimately love other
people, we love children, wewant to bring compassion to
(39:26):
people, which is something Nicksaid over and over again, I love
the fact that he has onlyreflections about his career and
no regrets. Because regrets,frankly, are fairly, fairly
wasted emotions, not not to beconfused with what we can learn
from the things that we maybedid that were mistakes, but no
regrets. I like what he saidabout not being ambitious and
making the most of opportunitiesthat really resonated with me on
(39:47):
a personal level, because Idon't think anybody at five or
six says, you know, I'm going tobe an assistant superintendent
on the curriculum side of a verylarge school system. So that
that resonated with me 10,000views on LinkedIn on his last
post as he continues tochronicle his cancer journey on
that format, just just just theimpact that that's making hugely
(40:08):
resonant, the proceeds of hisbook go into Eagle's Nest an
orphanage in Guatemala, again,I'm making a lot of personal
connections here because I spentquite a bit of time in, in
Guatemala and the level ofpoverty there. If you've never
been, it's just just a differentthing than I've seen anywhere
else in the world. I love thefact that he said stand for
something really just the justthe whole notion of leadership.
(40:29):
Courage is kind of a throughline in everything you said. The
braces analogy, really standingfor something, having that firm
bar, and then letting thebureaucracy figure out the How I
love that line. Just wanted tocall that out. Because it really
is, the bureaucracy really isnoise. And if we use the
bureaucracy to change contextsthat people work in and learn
in, we know that makes a hugedifference. And that's part of
(40:50):
Chuck, Selene and Suzanne Curtisframework in their fine, fine
work in power is too powerful,you can hear more about them.
And on Episode 10, of outliersin education. If you haven't
listened to that particularpodcast already, a couple of
great stories toward the end,I'm gonna write down and play
someplace that changing people'sbeliefs can only happen through
deep listening, because I think,I think there are countless
(41:11):
examples of when I've erred onthe side of boy, it just seems
like this is such a basic rightthing I'm going to I'm going to
share with you why your why youropinion isn't right. And that
deep listening is important. Andthat's some great
neurophysiology in one of thelast stories, when he talks
about, you know, basically justpausing for 30 seconds and
praying, while we know thedifference in neurologically
(41:32):
between a reaction and aresponse is somewhere between 30
and 90 seconds. So, you know,boy, it's, you know, when your
faith in your neurologicalevidence align your team seems
like you make really, reallygood decisions. So I took that
away as well. I think the wordthat really just comes to mind
for me, if I had to pick oneword is purpose. I mean, I just
hear Nick live in thispurposeful life. And I'm really
inspired that Nick is choosingto make an impact, you know,
(41:56):
until he takes his last breath.
And I'm going to think a lotabout, you know, am I living my
purpose as a result of havinghad the opportunity to be
engaged in this conversation? Socan't thank you enough for being
on the show. Nick, we alwayslike to give our guests the
opportunity to say, Eric, thatwas a pretty nice summary, but
you really missed the gist. Andif there's anything you feel
(42:16):
like you'd like to share, pleasedo. And thank you again.
Eric Price (42:19):
How do we do Nick?
Did
Nick Brossoit (42:20):
we miss anything?
I'm humbled and honored to havebeen invited. And I appreciate
the opportunity. know if this isjust one of those experiences
where I feel like I'm doing whatI'm supposed to be doing. So
thanks for helping me do that.
Erich Bolz (42:35):
Wow. Our pleasure.
Eric Price (42:37):
Well, thanks for allowing us to listen to that. I
think we all learned something.
And I think it is also so hugelyhelpful, Nick, to know that no
matter where we are, there is anumber circled on that calendar
for all of us. And for us tolive a life in a way that we
would look back and go Yeah, Iabsolutely think that's the
(42:59):
right way to live. So thank youfor that opportunity for us to
listen to your perspectives onthat and for us to reflect as
well. Thank you, Nick. Great,thank you.
Erich Bolz (43:09):
Thanks to all of you for joining us today on outliers
in education. You can find thisepisode and more anywhere you
listen to your favorite podcast,or visit us
online@effectiveness.org. Untilnext time, this has been
outliers and education.
AD VO (43:28):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive change inyour school or district. Take a
moment to visit C E The Centerfor Educational
effectiveness@effectiveness.orgBetter data better decisions,
better schools effectiveness.org
Sometimes life takes a turn that brings everything
into focus, the wisdomaccumulated over a lifetime will
meet the reality of what's trulyimportant in the here. And now.
Today we're going to explorethat intersection with an
incredibly special guest on thisepisode of "Outliers in
Education." Hey, everybody,we're glad you're tuning into
(00:51):
the podcast today. I'm Ericprice here with my co host, Eric
Bowles from the Center foreducational effectiveness. We're
all in for a truly specialconversation today with longtime
superintendent, leadership coachand author Nick brasen. Nick, as
life happens has been battlingpancreatic cancer since he was
diagnosed with it in 2020. Hehas outlived doctors prognosis,
(01:13):
and he has used that time toamong other things, published
his new book, Love the people inline, which came out a year ago
in March. I mean, we're going toface our own mortality someday
bowls. And I guess the questionis, how do we how do we all deal
with that?
Erich Bolz (01:26):
Well, EP, that really is a great question,
indeed. And I've thought longand hard about how you know how
I might respond. And I think allI can say is from afar, sort of
watching Nick's journey throughsocial media and and knowing
Nick's reputation as an educatorroughly at the same era, all I
can say is, I'm incrediblyinspired by the courage and by
(01:47):
his willingness to use his timefor the best in writing a book.
And I think his approach tomortality, which most of us, if
you're like me choose not toconfront has just been inspiring
to a lot of us.
Eric Price (02:00):
Nick, we are super glad to have you on the show
today. How are you feeling?
Nick Brossoit (02:05):
Well, all right, I'm blessed to have good pain
pills.
Eric Price (02:09):
Well, Nick, my own background, as you and I have
spoken. When I was 19, I wasgiven a at best 25% chance to
live with a rare form of cancer.
And as I began to look at mylife going in, I remember
there's a salient point that wasfrozen in my memory, I'm on a
gurney, I'm getting ready to gointo a surgery, I don't know if
I'm going to make it out of,even if I make it out, I've got
(02:31):
less than a one in four chancethat I'm going to make it past
that for more than a year. And Istarted to think what's really
important. And for me, thatfocus just was laser like, like,
it was relationships, and it waspeople. So when you now are at
that similar kind of state,almost of knowing there's this
calendar, what what things havecome into focus for you in both
(02:53):
personal life and maybe evenyour reflection in education?
Nick Brossoit (02:58):
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm glad that you beat
the statistics, because you'vedone a lot in your career in
your life, and the world is abetter place for having you be
in it for the time that youwere, are and still are. I don't
know, I think the relationshipspart for me has always been
pretty important. So I don'tfeel like there's been a huge
change in that other than to bemaybe more present, I was
(03:19):
assumed I had more time withsome people. So to be more
present with the people thatI've been with. And even the
extra time I've had now I thinkhas been helpful. I'd already
retired from education. So sortof felt like I left my best on
the field prior to retiring. I'mglad I didn't have to practice
through some of what educatorshave been through in recent
(03:40):
years. I'm not sure I would havebeen as graceful as some of them
have been in dealing, dealingwith some of what they've had to
deal with. Probably the mostprofound thing for me is I've
always had a relationship withGod. And even though I was in
the public sector for 32 years,I was a Christian through all
that as well. And I just, Iwasn't one that you know, or
(04:02):
buttons and funny hats and stuffto draw attention to it. I just
tried to live what I feel Godcalled all of us to do, which is
to love Him and love others. Soa lot of my book and the stories
and the things that I tried todo through education was just
bringing God's love andcompassion to people who maybe
don't have that or hadn'texperienced that. And I was
(04:24):
never worried about things beingattributed inappropriately or
incorrectly. I figured that'sGod's to sort out not mine. So I
just tried to do my best withwhat was in front of me and all
that.
Erich Bolz (04:35):
Nick, I think it's one thing to retire and I think
it must be another thingaltogether to we you know, we
retire we reflect and then to bedealing with pancreatic cancer
and knowing that you know yourtime is short has, as you
reflected on your career haveHave there been changes in
perspective have have thingsthat mattered more maybe come
into clarity or focus.
Nick Brossoit (04:55):
You mean like looking back when I've done
something different or maybe
Erich Bolz (04:59):
Not even looking back, you know, would you have
done something different? Ithink that's I think that's a
great point of clarification. Ithink my wonder is, you know, I
think I know what was importantin my career. But if I were
diagnosed with a with a terminalillness and had a very short
time to live, I think myperspective on what was really
important, and maybe what was itmight have changed somewhat. And
(05:20):
I'm just wondering if you hadany of those reflections?
Nick Brossoit (05:23):
No. And fact, probably, I would say, if there
were things that I look back andwish I'd have done different, I
would feel those are more ofregrets than reflections. I
don't regret any part of what Idid in 32 years, my 22 as a
superintendent, what have you, Ijust feel like I had my eye on
the ball pretty much all thattime. But what was important, I
(05:45):
would get criticized sometimesfor not participating in some of
the adults meetings and thingsthat people thought were so
important, but my heart and Ifeel like God's already always
steered me through my hearttowards the work that was
important. And I would ratherI'd rather be on the phone for
20 minutes with a parent who wasunhappy about some service she
(06:07):
was or wasn't getting, then goto a meeting and listen to other
people talk for 20 minutes andnot Sandy's.
Eric Price (06:13):
Just as a point of clarification, you would have
had more meetings, Nick.
Nick Brossoit (06:19):
And I really, what I really liked about being
a superintendent is I couldcontrol how many at least I was
responsible for and how longthey were. Yeah, right.
Eric Price (06:29):
So Nick, you I've read your book, love the people
in line, I think it's fantastic.
Could you tell us a little bitabout if some of the our
listeners that might not knowabout it? Well,
Nick Brossoit (06:39):
I never really sought out to write a book. And
people think that, in fact, mywhole career, I've not really an
ambitious person, I've just hadopportunities and tried to make
the best of them when I hadthem, and then more
opportunities would show up. Andso Okay, fine. I in fact, I
never plan to be asuperintendent either. couldn't
even tell you what they did whenI was in education. Now I know
(07:02):
and I'm not sure if it is thatinterested. But the book itself
was really kind of a journal.
For me, I went through somepretty bumpy things in my
childhood. And being a Christianand trying to reconcile how
things like that can happen topeople and how much of that is
responsible for people doingthings to people or, you know,
just rainfalls and everybody,just random things. But so the
(07:25):
book for me was kind of ajournal. And I would work use
that to work my way throughstuff, and collect and capture
stories of how other people, youknow, God use them to breathe
into my life and as use me tomaybe impact others, through my
career and through other thingsI've done. So the book was
really kind of a collection ofthis stuff. And then I was asked
to speak at a conference. Ican't remember it was a year or
(07:48):
two ago, and the person who puton the conference, he wanted to
get to know me better. So afterI spoke and everything, I said,
Well, here's a manuscript ofsomething that's kind of a
collection of my thoughts. Andnone of it had any of the cancer
journey in it. It was all beforethat. So I gave him that. And he
came back after I got back froma Christmas break. And he said,
(08:09):
Well, this needs to be a book.
And I said, Well, I just don'treally, by this time I had
cancer, I said, I just don'treally have the energy and the
whatever to push that way again.
So he said, No, I'll take careof that for you. So he went out.
And he hired an editor who camein to my house and at would ask
me questions to kind of fill inbits with the manuscript. And
(08:29):
then we captured the wholecancer journey and the last part
of the book, and referencepeople too, if they wanted to
keep up with the story, theycould switch over to LinkedIn
where I have a profile, I guess,and I've sort of been using my
LinkedIn platform as a way toupdate people, it's pretty easy.
You know, you put in an entryand it sits there. And the last
(08:51):
one had over 10,000 views. Sothere's, wow, somebody's looking
at it. Yeah, we're taking theproceeds that come to us from
the book, and we're sending themto Eagle's Nest, which is a
mission for children inGuatemala, poor kids that are
it's kind of a Christian basedorphanage concept. My wife went
there on a mission a coupleyears ago, and just felt like it
(09:14):
was a really concentrated focuson people who need it the most,
and who have the least and so I,you know, I'm, I'm not probably
changing their revenue streamtoo much, but we're doing, we're
doing something to make adifference there. And, and then
I feel good, because I neverreally wanted to make any money
off what God's done in my life.
(09:36):
That just seems odd. So I likethe fact that, you know, thanks
to my retirement and socialsecurity stuff, we don't have to
rely on the book to live. Yeah.
Eric Price (09:46):
When you reflect back on that, Nick, was there
any big epiphanies when you didthe process, I know writing
bowls and I doing some of thatwriting? I think there's there's
this process that we learn a lotanything that you learned from
the Book and reflecting
Nick Brossoit (10:01):
Well, when I was in the hospital back in August
of 2020, and they gave me thediagnosis and stuff. I was
praying and I was asking God,what's going on? You know, I'm
just been told I've got sixmonths to a year to live in this
advanced cancer that spread tomy liver. I mean, not good news,
medically. And pancreatic canceris a different kind of cancer.
(10:23):
It's got, scientifically somevery aggressive tendencies and
abilities to mutate and do allkinds of stuff. That's why it's
so deadly. But anyway, I waspraying and asked God, what's
going on? He said, he said,Don't worry, the rest of your
life here is secure, and yourlife and heaven is secure. And I
wasn't trying to be a smartass,or anything, although my wife
tells me I can do that withouttrying. I said to God, I said,
(10:49):
Well, you know, how, how can Inot worry about it? I mean, this
is, this is a pretty differentplan that I had for my
retirement. He said, Just Justhang in there, basically, and
share your story from a faithperspective. So my mission or my
calling, whether it's the placesI've been asked to speak, or
this interview, and others, I'vedone the book, it's all it's all
(11:09):
been about being obedient toGod, asking me to share my
experiences from a faith basedperspective on this journey. For
me, that's just kind of how I'velived. I'm glad that I've had a
relationship with God. And hewith me for since I can
remember, and so I'm doing whatI've been doing. And other
people find inspiration fromthat. But there's nothing novel
(11:31):
about what I'm doing now. It'sjust cancer. It could be it
could be something else. And formost people hearing this
podcast, it's going to besomething at some point.
Erich Bolz (11:40):
We we talked about that in in pre production prep
for certain, Nick. And so one ofthe things I want to ask about
just shifting gears slightly ishow would you describe your your
leadership legacy? I mean, youare in two large districts as
superintendent for more than twodecades. Yeah.
Nick Brossoit (11:58):
Yeah, I look back at that statistically. And it is
kind of the anomaly. And what'sthe best way for me to describe
this? Well, let me let me answerthat by sharing a hopefully
entertaining, but I thinkinsightful story that kind of
separates me and how I did mywork as a superintendent, as a
leader, from other people. I wasnew out of the School of
(12:18):
Education. I graduated from Plu.
And I was looking for my firstteaching job. And I had two or
three other offers. So when Iwent into this interview, I was
pretty confident I was going tobe working somewhere. But I
didn't know where yet. So I gointo the for this interview for
high school social studiesposition, and the principal and
the assistant principal, call meinto their office. And they say,
(12:38):
Hey, Nick, you know, we justwant to let you know, we're
really interested in seeing youhere. But there's a big issue
with the school board, and theydon't want to see a teacher be a
coach. So you're gonna you'rebasically interviewing for a job
where we were removing theteacher, because he didn't do a
good job. And the conclusionwas, it was because he was
coaching. So if you get anyquestions in the interview about
(12:59):
coaching, you know, be sure tobe mindful that we're just
hiring you as a teacher, we justwant you to come in as a
teacher. And I'm listening tohim. And I'm, you know, my
internal radar is just goingcrazy on so many levels. But I
was there and I figured what theheck. So I went into the
interview. And there's thistable, big round table setting
and probably 15 people there.
(13:22):
And each person is taking a turnasking me a question. I'm doing
pretty well, I, I'm answeringthe questions in a way that's
consistent with what I believeand certainly consistent with
best practice for teachingstuff. Then we get to this lady
who looks like she hadn't had abowel movement in a couple of
months. And she says, Well, whatdo you think about teachers who
(13:46):
coach, you know, and I couldtell, this was this was that
moment I had been, I had beenwarned.
Erich Bolz (13:52):
And I literally one right answer. Yeah.
Nick Brossoit (13:55):
And I looked at her and I said, Well, I think
it's great, I think, I think, agood teacher, a good teacher and
a good coach crossover in somany ways. And I just think it's
awesome. And the influences youcan have on young people in both
the classroom athletic field isone you shouldn't miss. And then
(14:16):
she looked, she looked likesomething actually had moved by
that time. So she, she comesback and she says, she says,
Well, what would you do ifyou're offered a job just as a
teacher and not as a coach? AndI was pissed by now, but I'm
not. Not in a rude way. But Isaid looked right at her and
said, Well, I would probablyvolunteer. We went through the
(14:36):
rest of the interview a biteverybody farewell and surprise,
surprise, I didn't get offeredthat job. But here's how it's
relevant to the question youasked. And I gotta be careful
both the principal and theassistant principal, who were in
that high school who hadbasically swallowed the pill.
The board has given him aboutwhat we're going to do, we're
(14:57):
not going to do and I understandall that like I can tell you
stories about all that stuff,too. Both of them went on to be
superintendents in the state,neither of which lasted very
long. And the reason and theopposite with why I think I
lasted long is my North Star wasdoing what's best for kids
always didn't matter if it wasgonna get me in trouble or not.
(15:20):
In their instance, at a prettyearly place in their career,
they were already bending to theinfluences of the politics of
the position. Well, as soon asyou soon as you kiss a pig, in
this business, other livestockwill line up. So you, so unless
you enjoy that or think you'regonna somehow outsmart the
(15:43):
audience that wants to use yourauthority to accomplish their
will, which is most of whoapproaches you, then you better
then you better stand forsomething more substantial. And
my North Star was always whatwas best for students and
learning. I have another story Icould share if you want to hear
about that. But I don't want tobore you with those.
Erich Bolz (16:04):
You didn't bore us with the first one. I get Yeah,
that's another livestock oneroll right into that. Let's,
let's hear one more story.
Nick Brossoit (16:10):
This is that dynamic between the
superintendent and their board,which, you know, for a lot of
people is a pretty hard positionto be in, because in fact, you
like your job and you want to bein the position to do the work.
But you know, how far are yougonna go and at what price? So,
this I actually was in theTumwater school district and
have fond memories of bothtomato and Edmonds. Tomato is
(16:32):
about 6000 students and Edmondshas over 20,000 in cash. There's
lots of discussions you can haveabout the size of a district and
what comes with that. Butanyway, I was sitting at my desk
in my office one day, and theboard president comes in
wonderful man, great man. Healso was an UnderSheriff for, I
think, Thurston County, or LewisCounty. So he was in uniform
(16:56):
with his gun and his holster inthe whole thing. And he was the
board president that year thatwas going to do my evaluation.
And he comes in my office and hestands in this one spot, and he
says, you know, that teacherwalkout that's coming in a
couple of weeks? Well, I expectyou to run school in the
district on time and onschedule, and to not close your
council school. He didn't ask meany he didn't ask me anything.
(17:18):
He just delivered the the edict.
And I'd only been in the job forfour or five years. And again, I
liked it. So I thought about itand prayed about it and
continued to do my duediligence, I, we, you know,
we've met with all the unions,and we've we concluded we
couldn't safely run school thatday. And if we did, we were
going to have pissyrelationships with everybody for
(17:38):
years. And there just wasn't anupside. If somehow it
miraculously snowed on that day,we'd simply make it up at the
end of the year, and life wouldgo on. So I never had a board
meeting, never brought it up ata board meeting didn't do a
special session didn't bring theboard together in an Executive
Session, because this was areally good man. And he'd got
(17:59):
sideways really fast with theother board members. And he got
sideways with administrators andwith the unions and with the
community, because it would havebeen a explosion over that
issue. A lot of people felt likehe did, just flat out didn't
want to see it happen. A lot ofpeople were very supportive of
the symbolism of what theteachers were doing. But we
weren't going to change any ofthat we weren't going to change
(18:21):
gravity or do anything if we to,if we'd have done that. So
anyway, the day came, I put itin my weekly notes to the board
before it happened. I just said,Look, I've looked at all this
stuff. You guys are paying me tomake some of these tough
decisions. And my decision iswe're not going to have school
on that day. Do you have anyquestions? Call me, sorry, you
know, on to the next thing. So aboard meeting came and went,
(18:44):
nobody came and spoke. He neversaid anything. It's now two
weeks after the decision. Hecomes back to my office and he
stands at the same exact spot.
In my office. He's wearing hisuniform, and he's got his gun.
Hopefully it's still under theflap, but he's got his gun on
it. And I'm nervous. I'm notthat confident. I'm not even 40
(19:05):
yet. And he says, Nick, youremember, you know, about four
weeks when I stood right here.
And I told you, I expected youto run school at De nada. And I
said, Yeah, remember? He says,Well, you didn't you didn't
listen to me and you ran school.
And I just want you to know wehired the right superintendent.
Wow. Wow. And it doesn't alwaysfall that way. And if you were
(19:29):
one of the people that I consultor advise, I might have given a
different directions on how tohandle that safer. But by doing
it the way I did it, a treenever fell in the forest. He
never got hurt. The board didn'tget hurt. We didn't have all the
drama. I just took it allmyself. And so I think that's,
you know, you asked me what'sthe difference in my leadership
(19:51):
versus other people. Noteverybody. I'm sure there's lots
of great superintendents. Butone I didn't bend to politics. I
did do what was best forstudents and learning in the
district in spite of thepolitics. And then when it came
to my own employment, I againput the district and the kids
interest better ahead of my own.
And so, I don't know people maybe kinda kinda like that. We're
(20:12):
in a conversation one time at aschool board meeting, and I was
in trouble for something I knowwhat it was, I was choosing to
feed kids who'd come to schooland they didn't have any money.
I even got a shroud me for thatand all ripped up by one of the
TV stations because I wasessentially feeding kids that
were hungry, and figured we justwork out the finances with their
(20:33):
parents later. So we had somepeople come in, and they were
not many, but a few were upsetat the board meeting was to why
we would feed their kids whenthey wouldn't send them was to
school of food or money. And Ihad to do it lots of editing
when I was sitting there, listento that. But after all that was
over and all the plates stuffwas over, one of my board
members leaned over to me andshe just said, Nick, thanks for
(20:55):
feeding our kids. So I wasblessed with school boards that
kind of let me go and supportedme to do what was best for kids
in the district. And they knew Iwasn't going to cut deals on the
way and that I would go down ifever had to go down, do what was
right for kids. So those kindsof things make a difference. And
(21:16):
now I see. I see stuff that goeson and some of those dynamics
and some of the people that callme and say what buttons should I
push I'm I'm saddened by theexpectations, and the lack of
support that a lot ofsuperintendents are dealing
with, frankly, I've even heardstories about some
(21:37):
superintendents now that if Iwasn't died of cancer, I'd
probably have a contract. But Iwould, I would not stand for for
what some of these guys aredoing. I call him out on it.
Eric Price (21:50):
We're gonna take a short break, and we'll be right
back to talk more with Nickbrasen on this very special
episode of outliers ineducation.
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Eric Price (23:05):
We're back. And we continue to be grateful for the
chance to have this conversationwith former superintendent
author and all aroundinspirational guy Nick bras it
Nikki, you said you had a bumpychildhood and reading your
childhood story in the book. Ithink that is a nice way to put
it. What would you say now toboth principals and to soups?
(23:26):
How do we best deal with kidsthat are dealing with incredibly
hard things at home just likethe story about the lunch?
What's the proper response fromfrom us as leaders?
Nick Brossoit (23:36):
Okay, you start out with this unwavering
unconditional love for kids.
What's best for the kidsindividually, the training that
you do for your staff about howto catch and appropriately refer
and support those kids that areat risk you start there.
Everything else is just thebureaucracy figuring out the how
part and you organize all theadults and every all the
(23:59):
bureaucracy and all thecontracts and all the people
that have got to agree to get inline with that. And that's where
a lot of the heavy liftingcomes. But you don't waver on
that. You just stick to it. Andeventually, the adults will
adjust. You know, I get rambleyhere because I'm on some pretty
heavy drugs. I apologize forthat.
Eric Price (24:20):
That's okay. Boz and I are to with no real reason.
Yeah, but
Nick Brossoit (24:23):
I'm legal. So, so you know, braces work. If you've
ever had orthodontia work thoughthe bar or the wire is a
constant. The individual bandsthat are attached to each tooth,
simply are causing that tooth tohave to move towards the
constant. There's a greatpicture great imagery of
(24:47):
leadership. You hold the bar,you hold a constant expectation
for we're going to do what'sbest for kids and the how part
is us figuring out how eachlittle part of the system that
tooth has to rotate and move.
We're not going to change thebar You know, we're gonna do
what is in the best interest ofkids in their present situation
and in their life and in theirfuture. And then we're going to
figure out over time, how do weget those teeth to move the
(25:09):
lineup in those systems. It's socool, because there's so much of
a holding force to that alignedpractice of what's best for
kids. And let's figure it out asadults, that they are hard to
change. Even if you get somegoofy person in a leadership
role later. It's hard to screwthose places. It's been done,
I've seen it happen. But it's,it's harder. So you want to
(25:32):
practice those things that arebest for students and learning.
And you got to have, you got tohave a superintendent and a
board that's willing to dealwith a little bit of a storm,
and understand it's connected tosomething more important, which
goes back to the kids. I never,I never had somebody come to a
board meeting, and accuse me ofdoing something that was harmful
to kids, or credit criticize mefor our motives and our
(25:56):
intentions. I have gotten toboard meetings when we were
closing schools, as unpopular asthat is, and we had nobody
protest. Because because I wason my feet for two hours in that
school community before theboard meeting, answering every
question and addressing everyissue that they had. And I told
people in one school, I'll bethe last one to leave the
(26:16):
library. And I was I would staythere and I would talk face to
face and listen honestly, withpeople about what we're doing
and why. And I didn't hidebehind layers. And I didn't send
it out in a memo. And I didn'thide behind the board. The board
looked at me in one of thesemeetings that where's everybody
out? You know, they have to havea public hearing to close the
(26:37):
school. And I said, Well, I canget them here if you want. But
But if the goal is just to closethe school list, we just
processed it with peopledirectly. The cool part is I had
a the president of thatparticular PTA ended up
volunteering to be our citizenlead on all of our levies and
bonds. After we close theschool, I mean, these are good
(26:59):
people and and really mostpeople are well intended. I see
a lot of the drama, I see a lotof the drama, of people standing
out in front of the schooldistrict with their signs all
riled up about stuff. How comethe superintendent wasn't out
there talking to him before thecameras showed up? And why did
they have to? Why did they haveto beat so hard on the door, to
get the attention of the systemto address an issue that was
(27:22):
already there? That's the stuffyou know, and maybe it is cancer
or age or drugs or something.
But that's the stuff I look atnow. And I think I don't get it.
I don't understand, you know,you got people that are in a
leadership position, but they'rehiding, and they're not standing
up and saying it out for kids.
And well, I don't think I'd behappy if I was in their district
(27:44):
either. Keep firing I like Ilike your questions.
Erich Bolz (27:49):
Yeah, we want to kind of stay in this leadership
vein, but you know, thinkingabout your career through the
lens of reflection, and weprobably have some things in
common I, I think if I look backat my career, it's not a regret.
But I started awfully young as aprincipal I was principal last
century at 31 years of age,which I think is frankly too
young. If I could talk to myyounger self, I would say a
teacher while you were good atit, be a principal, a 35 be a
(28:11):
principal, a 37. When we thinkabout people who are in their
30s and 40s. Right now thinkingabout moving out of the
classroom or thinking aboutmoving from maybe the
principalship to a centraloffice position. What advice
would you have for those folksin general?
Nick Brossoit (28:24):
Well, it really varies per person. I mean, I
liked what you said, where youcould have done that job longer.
But sometimes the opportunity isthere. And the opportunity needs
you before you're ready for theopportunity. I wasn't like I say
I wasn't ambitious, I didn'tplan it. I didn't set out to be
a superintendent. It wasn't myvision for my life to be a
(28:47):
school superintendent, I dothink you have to think about
where you're at in your life,your family is got to be a main
consideration, because that kindof a career change puts a lot of
pressure on them to deal withyou who's dealing with a new
situation. You know, they sayyou shouldn't do a new job and
get into a doctoral program atthe same time, because it's too
much. Probably true, you know,but I sold the house was having
(29:10):
kids change jobs and did adoctoral program all at the same
time. And, you know, I lived totell about it. So people have
people have different degrees ofcapacity for that kind of stuff.
But talk to people who've madethe change, you know, do your
research, investigate that movewith other people where you're
going and who you're going to beworking with make a difference.
(29:31):
So there's lots of stuff therethat you can cultivate, as you
lead up to making that choice.
Eric Price (29:36):
Nick, we live in this era of communicating,
posting, speaking, and I thinkwe have lost some of that great
art of listening. And I justheard you referenced that with
the people at the school thatwere closing and you know, in in
reference to the drama as well.
So two parts to this question.
(29:57):
Why is listening so important?
And why do we not do it so muchholistically in Educational
Leadership?
Nick Brossoit (30:05):
Well, great questions. And I need to share a
little bit of a story, I guess,leading up to my answer. So are
we okay, on time it has
Eric Price (30:14):
Does it have to do with livestock? No.
Nick Brossoit (30:19):
You're safe.
There's a, there's, I don't knowif they're still in business or
not. But there's a place calledthe Annenberg Institute, they
did a study, many years ago,they were trying to figure out
and prove the premise, thatscene is believing that if you
give people facts andinformation about stuff, they're
more likely to do the rightthing and change their opinions
and change their actions. Sothey took as a test, they would
(30:40):
take people and they put them inone of those audiology booths,
where they can actually cut offany sound, or might, they had a
microphone in there, and theywould put a red apple on the
table in this booth. And theyput people in there. And they'd
say, before they went in, we'regonna put you in a booth where
there's no light, do you thinkyou'll be able to see the apple?
And most people said, yes. Butthey put a high school student
(31:04):
in there. And they said, youknow, you can talk to us through
the microphone, and we're goingto have you in this room where
there's no light, but there'llbe a red apple on the table. Do
you think you'll be able to seeit? She said, Yeah. They said,
why? Well, I think my eyes willadjust, and I'll be able to see
it. Okay, here we go. They puther in the room, close it off,
make sure she's safe andcomfortable. Because she can
(31:26):
talk to them and stuff. She's inthere for about 15 or 20
minutes. And they say, How's itgoing? She says it's going fine.
Can you see the apple? No, justgive it a little more time. So
now we're up to like, 3035minutes, same question, same
answer. So now she's in therefor like 45 minutes. Would you
like to come out? She says,yeah, she comes out in her eyes
(31:49):
adjust and stuff. They say, Didyou see the apple? She said no.
But if I just stayed in there alittle longer, I think I would
have. Okay, what they concludedin that study is that people
have a belief system, theyalready think a certain way
based on life experiences, whatthey've been taught,
(32:10):
indoctrinated into. I mean, thelist of things that influences
who we are at any place in ourlife is long. But their
conclusion is that people theninterpret objective data in a
way that's consistent with theiropinion, the way they see
things. Yeah, so for thisperson, and for a lot of people,
what they believe, is morecontrolling than what they see
(32:32):
or experience in the moment.
Because they have a lot ofallegiance to that belief system
it's been developing over theyears. And what they found is
the only way and this gets backto your question, why is deep
listening and important? Well,they found that the only way
that you can change somebody'sopinion, is to go back and
listen deeply to understand whyis it you believe the moon is
(32:54):
the center of the universe? Orwhy is it that you believe
you'll see that red apple whenall the science and evidence
that you won't? And once they'rethere, and they explained to her
how photons work and how the AIworks, and, you know, literally
got into the science of it? Shesaid, Yeah, I can see what
you're saying. I can see, I cansee what you're saying, and why
(33:17):
you shouldn't be able to seethat apple, but I still think I
would be able to. And this issomebody who is 18 years old,
and we're talking about seeing ared apple in a room with no
light now enter the complexitiesof adults who may or may not
make a living on their beliefsystem who may or may not have
all kinds of social anchors thatthey've dropped on Facebook, or
(33:39):
what are their other socialmedia bomb locations you can go
off on. And they're highlyinvested and associated with a
certain belief system, certainopinions. This is why our
political system is so screwy,people are heavily invested on
their beliefs extreme right orleft. They want to pontificate
to try to convince other peopleto believe the way that they
(34:02):
believe. So they're relentlessin sharing their views, they see
as listening as a sign ofweakness, or it's only to be
done to get leverage on youropponent. I mean, this is the
art of war stuff we're doingnow, in our discourse in our
country, we've lost that commonsense. I'm not sure anybody's
got the penny in their pocketanymore. It's really sad. You
(34:23):
guys are gonna have to livethrough another president
election, president electioncampaign in our country. I'm
not. That's one of the one ofthe silver linings of my
situation. But, but it really istroubling to see so many people
who they don't even fullyunderstand why there's why
they're standing for what theystand for. So the deep listening
(34:44):
to me is a cure for that.
Eric Price (34:46):
So Nick, you've had a lifetime of experience in
listening any other stories ineducation that you think we
should hear that would helpleaders see things or lead
better?
Nick Brossoit (34:59):
Yeah, I'm going to share When it's actually in
the book, so I apologize if it'snot original for this interview,
but I like it on a bunch ofdifferent levels. I was an
assistant principal atBurlington Edison High School,
and a mother was coming inbecause her son, and was
suspended for fighting withanother student. And both of
them got the same consequence.
And then she came in, just liveit. She was yelling and cussing
(35:20):
and waving her fists in the air,my Secretary asked if we should
call the police. And I said, No,you know, you might leave the
door cracked open or something.
But she was, I mean, I've seenupset people before, this was
like cartoon mad, just superangry. And she was going off
about how I was just out to gether son, and we didn't care
(35:42):
about him. And we were alltrying to get her and get them.
And it was just caustic. Now,the normal response, and I was
starting to go through my headwas, you know, administratively,
you know, acknowledging that Iheard her and talking about
rules and safety and all thethings in support of why the
(36:02):
school did what it did. Butinstead, and this is the part
that's maybe unique, I prayed. Iknow, you're not supposed to
pray in school. But I was in myhead for 30 seconds. And I was
listening to her go off on me.
And so rather than respond, Ijust prayed, I said, God, what's
really going on here? Give mesome insight, some clarity about
how to respond and what to sayand what to do. And she stopped,
(36:26):
she was winding down, and shesaid, Well, are you gonna say
anything? And I looked at herand I said, what was on my
heart, and God put it on mymind. I said this, I said, you
really love your son. And you'reafraid that decisions that he's
making could hurt himself orother people. And you're scared
and you don't know for sure whatto do. She's She sat down, her
(36:49):
shoulders relaxed, the yelling,and the screaming stopped, and
she was sobbing, just sobbing.
And I sat down to and I just wasquiet. And we ended up having
this great conversation forabout 35 minutes on what she
could do and what we could do tosupport her son in a
(37:12):
constructive way. And it workedout great. Oddly enough. I saw
this young man years, many yearslater in the airport at SeaTac.
He was waiting for a flight. Ididn't go over and say anything
to him or introduce myselfdidn't ever want to make anybody
feel awkward. You know, after Idanced with him in my career.
(37:32):
But he looked like he was doingokay. I mean, he wasn't he
didn't have a sight out like hewas collecting for dinner. He
must have made it okay. I guessmy point with that is just
simply, I feel especially ifyou're somebody of a person of
faith, just take the time, pushParker ego for a minute, take
(37:53):
the time to ask the question,God, what would you have me
learn? Or what would you want meto do in this situation, and
then, and then go with it. Andalso, if you're in a leadership
position, don't be cavalierabout it. But have some spine
have some backbone to stand upand do what's best for kids and
learning? Because that's notselfish. And I've seen people
(38:14):
who had this courage, but theydidn't have the wisdom or they
didn't have an index to a NorthStar. They just got in fights
all the time over stuff thatwasn't worth five, no eight
Eric Price (38:23):
Biden ears off of everybody and kissing all kinds
of pigs. Yeah.
Nick Brossoit (38:27):
You don't need to do that all the time. Yeah.
Eric Price (38:30):
Nick. Thank you. I think that there are so many
more things that we could delveinto. This is the time of the
show that we're going to flip itover to bowls, and he's going to
summarize for us in hismasterful way. Bowls. What do
you have? For a nutshell for us?
Erich Bolz (38:44):
I've got the whole nut in the nutshell. So So
bottom line, this, this podcastwas really born out of our
positive outlier study, whichis, which is a fantastic read.
And one of the things that wasconsistent in this study was
kids in schools where we seeschools essentially over
performing their demographicsreally have access to high
quality administrators. And Ithink, being able to talk to
(39:05):
Nick today, there's no questionthat he would have set that tone
up and down the organization.
First thing I took away is bemore present. And I think we all
struggle with living in themoment and there can't be enough
people in our lives to remind usthat presence is important. I
think almost all of us went intoeducation, regardless of our
faith background, because, youknow, we ultimately love other
people, we love children, wewant to bring compassion to
(39:26):
people, which is something Nicksaid over and over again, I love
the fact that he has onlyreflections about his career and
no regrets. Because regrets,frankly, are fairly, fairly
wasted emotions, not not to beconfused with what we can learn
from the things that we maybedid that were mistakes, but no
regrets. I like what he saidabout not being ambitious and
making the most of opportunitiesthat really resonated with me on
(39:47):
a personal level, because Idon't think anybody at five or
six says, you know, I'm going tobe an assistant superintendent
on the curriculum side of a verylarge school system. So that
that resonated with me 10,000views on LinkedIn on his last
post as he continues tochronicle his cancer journey on
that format, just just just theimpact that that's making hugely
(40:08):
resonant, the proceeds of hisbook go into Eagle's Nest an
orphanage in Guatemala, again,I'm making a lot of personal
connections here because I spentquite a bit of time in, in
Guatemala and the level ofpoverty there. If you've never
been, it's just just a differentthing than I've seen anywhere
else in the world. I love thefact that he said stand for
something really just the justthe whole notion of leadership.
(40:29):
Courage is kind of a throughline in everything you said. The
braces analogy, really standingfor something, having that firm
bar, and then letting thebureaucracy figure out the How I
love that line. Just wanted tocall that out. Because it really
is, the bureaucracy really isnoise. And if we use the
bureaucracy to change contextsthat people work in and learn
in, we know that makes a hugedifference. And that's part of
(40:50):
Chuck, Selene and Suzanne Curtisframework in their fine, fine
work in power is too powerful,you can hear more about them.
And on Episode 10, of outliersin education. If you haven't
listened to that particularpodcast already, a couple of
great stories toward the end,I'm gonna write down and play
someplace that changing people'sbeliefs can only happen through
deep listening, because I think,I think there are countless
(41:11):
examples of when I've erred onthe side of boy, it just seems
like this is such a basic rightthing I'm going to I'm going to
share with you why your why youropinion isn't right. And that
deep listening is important. Andthat's some great
neurophysiology in one of thelast stories, when he talks
about, you know, basically justpausing for 30 seconds and
praying, while we know thedifference in neurologically
(41:32):
between a reaction and aresponse is somewhere between 30
and 90 seconds. So, you know,boy, it's, you know, when your
faith in your neurologicalevidence align your team seems
like you make really, reallygood decisions. So I took that
away as well. I think the wordthat really just comes to mind
for me, if I had to pick oneword is purpose. I mean, I just
hear Nick live in thispurposeful life. And I'm really
inspired that Nick is choosingto make an impact, you know,
(41:56):
until he takes his last breath.
And I'm going to think a lotabout, you know, am I living my
purpose as a result of havinghad the opportunity to be
engaged in this conversation? Socan't thank you enough for being
on the show. Nick, we alwayslike to give our guests the
opportunity to say, Eric, thatwas a pretty nice summary, but
you really missed the gist. Andif there's anything you feel
(42:16):
like you'd like to share, pleasedo. And thank you again.
Eric Price (42:19):
How do we do Nick?
Did
Nick Brossoit (42:20):
we miss anything?
I'm humbled and honored to havebeen invited. And I appreciate
the opportunity. know if this isjust one of those experiences
where I feel like I'm doing whatI'm supposed to be doing. So
thanks for helping me do that.
Erich Bolz (42:35):
Wow. Our pleasure.
Eric Price (42:37):
Well, thanks for allowing us to listen to that. I
think we all learned something.
And I think it is also so hugelyhelpful, Nick, to know that no
matter where we are, there is anumber circled on that calendar
for all of us. And for us tolive a life in a way that we
would look back and go Yeah, Iabsolutely think that's the
(42:59):
right way to live. So thank youfor that opportunity for us to
listen to your perspectives onthat and for us to reflect as
well. Thank you, Nick. Great,thank you.
Erich Bolz (43:09):
Thanks to all of you for joining us today on outliers
in education. You can find thisepisode and more anywhere you
listen to your favorite podcast,or visit us
online@effectiveness.org. Untilnext time, this has been
outliers and education.
AD VO (43:28):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive change inyour school or district. Take a
moment to visit C E The Centerfor Educational
effectiveness@effectiveness.orgBetter data better decisions,
better schools effectiveness.org
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