March 1, 2023 • 38 mins
Coach Jim Johnson rose into the national spotlight back in 2006 when he allowed Jason "J-Mac" McElwain, a young high school basketball student-manager on the autism spectrum, to suit up and get in the game. What happened next is the stuff of legend. Today, Coach Johnson is a nationally recognized expert on teamwork and leadership, a sought after motivational speaker and author of the book, "A Coach and a Miracle." In this episode, Coach Johnson shares leadership gems that apply far beyond any high school basketball court - about mentorship, teaching, teamwork and more. As his motto reads, "Think bigger, lead better, win more!"
Hot Links!
- Watch the J-Mac Story here
- Coach Jim Johnson Official Website
- "A Coach and a Miracle" by Coach Jim Johnson
"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.
Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AD VO (00:00):
Outliers in Education is brought to you by C E, the
Center for educationaleffectiveness, better data,
better decisions, better schoolsto find out more visit
effectiveness.org.
Eric Price (00:14):
Ever heard the story of J Mac? It's a basketball tale
for the ages. But even moreimportantly, it's a story about
the power of teachers andmentors have to help young
people realize their dreams.
We're taking it to the hoop withCoach Jim Johnson today on
Outliers in Education.
AD VO (00:31):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we do
in schools,Everything that we do as
educators, it just comes back topeople
I love it even when it's hard,especially when it's hard.
Eric Price (00:43):
Ultimately, I mean, this is about what's best for
kids. Eric Bryce here with mylongtime teammate, Eric Bowles,
from the Center for educationaleffectiveness. Welcome to
another episode of outliers ineducation, where we've been
pinching ourselves lately overthe incredible guests we've been
fortunate to have on the show.
ballsy. I understand you had anillustrious high school
(01:04):
basketball career. Do youremember the story of Jay Mac?
Erich Bolz (01:08):
Well, one of those two things is true EP I
absolutely remember the story ofJ-Mac in terms of my illustrious
high school basketball career.
That'd be a really, really shortconversation on our website, for
those of you who are listeningright now, so gotta do a little
poor podcasting. I do have animage from 1985, the fall of my
senior year where it'sappropriate because I'm in my
(01:28):
warmup, which is how I spentmost of the years it turns out
the running through the GMACstory, it's been really well
chronicled. I first learned ofit overseeing special education
in my last post is AssistantSuperintendent Pasco school
district. And it's really been aforce for inclusion inclusivity
in the special ed community. Andthen as it turns out, everybody
knows the story, that incrediblegift by a coach to a loyal team
(01:50):
manager who comes in, lights himup for 20 in the one game that
he plays, and then you know,make a long story short, he
beats out Kobe Bryant to Jay Macbeat up Kobe Bryant for the SP.
So the bottom line is ESPN andeverybody else's chronicle this
a whole lot better than we can.
And Coach Johnson is aforerunner in knowing so many
(02:12):
things about leadership ahead ofwhere I think my basketball
coaches were in 1985. And we'rereally excited to get into that
story. So I can't wait tointerview Coach Johnson. It's
gonna be an amazing conversationtoday. Well,
Eric Price (02:23):
it is our great good fortune to have the man who made
that call with us here today.
Coach Jim Johnson developed awinning high school basketball
teams for over 30 years, and hislife really hit the spotlight
after that day that you'rereferencing bowls on the court
with Jay Mac. today. He's amotivational speaker and a
recognized authority on thesubject of realizing your
dreams. Coach Johnson, reallyhappy to have you. Welcome to
(02:44):
the show.
Coach Jim Johnson (02:47):
Thank you EP and Bolzie. So looking forward
to our conversation.
Eric Price (02:51):
Well, I'm sure it's safe to say the back in the day
in 2006. It made quite a bit ofa difference in the trajectory
of your life. But but that justwasn't an everyday call for you.
What led you kind of to thatpoint of allowing J Mac that
kind of opportunity in thatgame?
Coach Jim Johnson (03:06):
Well, one of the things I always talk to
young people about is that, youknow, when you make a
commitment, and you serve first,it'll come back to you. And just
to give you a little background,a Jason, Jason came into our
program. He was a little guy. Hewas like five 690 pounds soaking
wet as a sophomore in highschool. He tried out for the JV
(03:28):
team, I was the varsity coachand our JV coach came to me.
After a few days of tryouts. Hesays, Coach, we got a young man.
He's on the autism spectrum atthat point that was 2003. So we
didn't know a lot about autism.
And he said, But no, he can'tplay a lick. He's got a he's got
a big heart. And he lovesbasketball. He loves the
(03:49):
players. I think we should keepin the program. So what do you
got in mind? He says, I'm goingto offer him the team manager's
job but I'm a little practicewith the team every day and
that's what he did. And, youknow, I I started to get to know
him because he would not only goto the JV game, but the varsity
game normally was right afterthat. So he would stay on the
bench and stay for the varsitygame. So I just got started to
(04:11):
get to know Him. In fact, I takehim the nickname Jake make
because I couldn't pronounce hislast name. Fortunately, he liked
the nickname and it stuck. Andit's funny because half the
school didn't know his realname. They just know him as J
Mac. So what the other thingthat was amazing though, is you
know, after sophomore year, hecame to our all our offseason
(04:33):
workouts we you know, we put alot of commitments on our
players, because we wanted to bereally good and he came to
everything. And you know, hestill wasn't very good. But man,
this kid, he just I started Istarted picking him up at his
house and, and he just lovedbasketball. He would always be
you know, because I lovebasketball too. So we'd share
(04:54):
basketball stories and so hecomes out for the team as a
junior and he doesn't make itbut he serves as my team
manager. And ironically, we hadnever won our section five
championship i At that point,I've been a fairly successful
coach, if you want to go winsand losses, we have many teams,
but we were never winning oursectional term, we in fact, we
(05:14):
lost five times in the sectionalsemifinal going into Jason's Jr.
So he adopts his mind traderfirst BD says, Coach, we know
you've never won a section fivechampion says, Thanks, Jason,
for the reminder, I appreciateit. He says, but we're going to
adopt the slogan this year,we're going to stay focused, and
(05:36):
we're going to help you win yourfirst sexified championship. So
he said look great. So we hit agood season ago, we got to the
semi finals now for the sixthtime in my career, and we lose
at the buzzer to our crosstownrival. So we're devastated. But
it never deterred GMAC again, hecame to all our offseason
workouts, try it out his senioryear. And still, our program was
strong, and he had grown. He'slike up to five, nine, maybe 110
(06:00):
pounds. So he's still quitesmall in stature. And so when I
bring them in during trials andsaid, Jason, unfortunately,
you're not quite good enough tomake the team and I want you to
serve as manager. But you'vebeen so committed to our
program. And I think this is agreat life lesson for all of us
is that when you show that youwill give first and that Jason
(06:21):
would always give he was alwaysthe first one on practice. He
would do anything for the kids.
He brings snacks to practice, hedo all kinds of stuff. And so I
said, I'm gonna give you a gift.
And he goes, what do you got inmind coach, this is for senior
day. He goes, I'm a senior I go,I know. I'm going to give you
uniform and hopefully get youinto the game. And he hadn't
(06:43):
suited up to this point. Itnever he had actually suited up
for one JV game. But he hadnever been in a varsity game as
well. So it's senior night. It'salways a special night. We
recognize all our seniors beforethe game and and so I really
wanted to get him in but Iwasn't sure my whole goal is I
thought if I could get him inwith enough time so he could
(07:06):
score Basque I thought Davidsonmemory wheelchairs Rush was
like, so I wanted to get him inwith enough time. So instead of
just making a cameo, so Idecided with just over four
minutes to go. I'm gonna justlet him play the game. So he
comes in. And the crazy thingis, is I'm usually a pretty
macho guy, and normally don'tcall it cry basketball. But what
happened was when he entered thecourt, one of our parents, he
(07:30):
was kind of our unofficialphotographer. He had given all
these pictures, he turned theminto placards, he put them on
paint sticks, and he gave thestudent body with a good student
body falling, they callthemselves a six man. And he
told the student body if the ifJ neck gets in the game showed
all these pictures. So Jason, Ihad no idea this happened. So
(07:51):
when he enters the Corps for thefirst time, they give him a
standing ovation and they showall these pictures. And I still
to this day get choked up. I waslike, oh my god, I can't believe
all their greed, you know? So Isit down in tears. My sisters go
to you okay, I go. I just can'tbelieve how they greeted him
like that. So he gets to thegame. First time we have the
wall. Our one of our team teammembers throws him the ball in
(08:15):
the right corner. He's got athree point shot in the crowd
kindness, deeds, anticipation.
It misses by like six feet. It'snot even close. And you guys be
in in public schools. You know,you're not supposed to pray in
the public school, but I waspraying. Please, God, please
help him release hit the roof.
So the night next possession, hegets a short shot for about 10
(08:37):
feet and this time it hits thebackboard and hits the rim and
falls off. I pick it alright,God started to listen. And so
the third possession, he getsanother three point or this time
for the right way. He lets it gomagic. It goes in the place just
explodes. And I'm thinking tomyself, God must be a basketball
fan. He's got a three point or akicker. And then as you guys
(09:01):
mentioned about Kobe, Kobe washis idol. And it for the next
three minutes he literallyturned into Kobe and he started
making shot after shot in theplaces going crazier crazier.
And the other thing that a lotof people don't know is he made
six three pointers. But hisseventh basket his foot was on
(09:22):
the line. He literally is twoinches from seven three
pointers, which would havebroken the school record at the
Eric Price (09:28):
toe. Wow, crazy.
Erich Bolz (09:31):
The other team playing soccer was this just a
transformational moment?
Coach Jim Johnson (09:35):
You know what it was a combination. I mean,
they were like all over him. Butyou know, is a lot of people
brought up it's not easy to makesix three pointers if you're
standing by yourself. Yeah,exactly. So they were guarded,
but they weren't like trying toblack
Eric Price (09:48):
shatter anything.
And then I know kind of the dealof Jamie. I talked to the
Coach Jim Johnson (09:53):
coach because we had played them earlier in
the year and he was all for it.
Everybody in the Elite Leagueknew Jason so it was So, so I,
but I do gotta take you throughthe end of the game because it
was literally out of Hollywood.
So he has scored all thesebaskets in the in the last
possession spencerport I do wantto give kudos to their team,
their coach. They were reallygracious that night, but they
(10:15):
score with about 10 seconds ago.
So our player takes a lot ofbounce and normally you throw to
a point guard Jason I kid himstill this day because I still
see him all the time is Jay Mac,I'm still looking for your first
assists. He never passed theball why?
Erich Bolz (10:30):
I can relate to that code.
Coach Jim Johnson (10:33):
But this last possession is a little different
because instead of him throwingto a point guard at source,
right, TJ Maxx or TJ Maxx likedribbling down the court. I see
the clock ticking. And I thoughtthey're just gonna let him go in
and he'd shoot like a layup andthe game. Oh no, he pulls up
like two feet behind the arc.
It's almost the NBA three. Don'tshoot for there. They're gonna
hold the moment. He watches thisrainbow swish. The ball goes
(10:55):
through as the buzzer goes off.
I look over our student bodyruns on the floor our players
run the only thing I can thinkof is Oh my god. I've lived in
the movie Rudy. But this istheir point. I had no idea when
he points he has in our playersput them up on their shoulder.
He's got the gable overhead andour public address announcer
(11:17):
comes out and says the leadscorer for the Trojans. Tonight
GMAC with 20 points. That is anawesome. Like, I think of my
math brain because he literallyplayed a half a quarter if he'd
played the whole game, he scored106 There's so many life lessons
about share one last thing, andthen I'm open to any questions.
Yeah, but uh, is that thegreatest thing we had, I wrote a
(11:41):
book about a call to coach and amiracle. And that season was the
most unique season I ever had.
Because I nearly resigned earlyseason, we had a lot of issues
that I don't want to delve intotoo deeply. I did share about it
in the book. And then the teamfinally came around. And you
talked about the essence ofteamwork. I had never asked the
four players on the on the courtto pass on the wall yet they
decided on their own hearts.
(12:03):
They pass it to him every time.
And it's something that still tothis day touches me deeply.
Eric Price (12:08):
That is very cool.
Erich Bolz (12:10):
Well, well, coach, as you know, and appreciate the
research that you've done on us.
And we did quite a bit ofresearch on you as well. This
This podcast was really born outof out of a public good study
that we did on outliers,positive outliers, schools in
the state of Washington. And wehave 11 common conditions. And
we look for guests that reallyexemplify those common
conditions, one of those insideof readiness to benefit is
developing a strong culture onthe premise that all students
(12:33):
are our students. And you know,the JMac story is just a
beautiful extension of that. Soyou've touched on it, but tell
us, Otto we benefit when weinclude others. And what were
some of those incredibleunintended benefits of, of just
your style of service?
Coach Jim Johnson (12:50):
Well, I think the one thing you know, you
preach like our mission statefor more our program was to
develop winners on and off thecourt. And so we really wanted
to build the complete person notjust as a basketball player.
And, you know, the beauty ofJason, you know, to give you an
idea how much he was in theteam, I'll share two side things
were pretty amazing. You know,after that season, because he
(13:14):
had first of all after that gameabout three days later, I and I
thought I did it for all theright reasons. We had no media
there. But actually, Jasonspeech pathologist that I didn't
know very well, he came thisfirst game we ever gone to. He
called one of the local TVstations the next day and said
you got to borrow but it was aVHS tape. Yeah. And they showed
(13:35):
it and it got so within threedays, we had ESPN call it ABC
News. I mean, it was just crazy.
But the amazing thing was isthat now Jason's getting this
publicity all over the world.
And between him and I, we wereon all kinds of shows and stuff.
But he he had to go back histeam manager, he knew that
upfront yet. When peopleinterview him after the season,
(13:59):
because we went out and won ourfirst section five championship
that year, is people would askthem what was the best thing
about your senior year leadingthem into you know, they want to
hear about his game, right? Andhe would say when he won section
five championship, of course. Soyou know, that's what kind of
team player he was. And I thinkif you could get people all
(14:19):
believing in a common cause. Andthen recognizing that I think is
really powerful because cultureis built day in and day out. And
I think it's the huge thing isgetting clarity of the mission
clear clarity, the values, andthen I think something we forget
a lot, and I got a lot better atthat. Second half of my career
(14:40):
is remember, you're the personthat starts that you lead by
example. And if you're notembracing and living their
culture day in and day out,believe me your team members
won't either.
Erich Bolz (14:50):
Well, we are an absolute culture first company
Coach Johnson so that reallyresonated with me and really
interested in you know, when youextend an opportunity and
includes Somebody like Jason,talk about how the benefits come
back to you, the team, theschool, how that's changed your
life, because I think we oftendon't think about that impact
coming back to us when we dosomething unique and extend that
(15:12):
inclusivity to others.
Coach Jim Johnson (15:13):
Well, you know, what I think is something
I've learned in life is, is whenyou do things consistently, for
the right reasons, I thinkthings tend to come back much
better. I mean, not in mywildest dreams, would I ever
thought I'd write a book, youknow, speak all over the country
and inspiration and leadershipand teamwork and all that. So
(15:34):
it's been a real privilege.
Hopefully someday, right now, wedon't have a movie. But we did
want to have one at one time,but we're hoping because it to
me, it's such a great story. Ithink I'd love to see some how
we can get it back. So we canhave a movie on it someday. But
the greatest lesson is you hearit in sometimes you don't
believe it's true. But I thinkthere's a lot of truth to that
(15:55):
is the more you give, the moreyou get. Okay,
Eric Price (16:00):
we're gonna take a quick timeout here for a word
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Eric Price (17:15):
Welcome back, everybody. We're checking back
into the game with Coach JimJohnson. So Coach going back to
that piece like my last post inpublic education, I was at a K
six school and we were kind ofthe magnet for all the autistic
kids in the district. So myheartstrings also when I'm
reading, you know, watching thatI'm I'm tearing up to So J Mac
(17:35):
comes on the court, his firstthree is a brick, right? And,
and then and now you're likeholy smoke, I got an autistic
kid, you know, all these thingsare built up, he throws a brick,
what are you thinking as aleader? And you said you had
this kind of evolution as aleader? How did you see your
evolution as a leader there inthat place? Like nomina? Believe
in Him? I'm going to keep going.
How do you see that?
Coach Jim Johnson (17:57):
I think the biggest thing is staying with
that belief through adversity,because, you know, I couldn't
have probably thought of a worseway for him to start the game.
This is first shot by about sixfeet. But you know what I mean,
it really came back to I wantedto do something nice for him
because he had done so many nicethings for our program. It I
(18:21):
knew that you know what? Becauseone of the things we preached
all the time, and he really wasa great example of is, is next
play because basketball is afast game. Yeah. So you know,
you miss a shot. You can't beworried Vic I used to we called
it a double negative. So, youknow, the famous one is the guy
misses a wide open layup, okay.
And there's no one more bearishthan the kid that missed that
(18:43):
wide open layup. But then, ofsometimes it would take the kid
out. And most of the time Iwould. And you know, for the
common people in the stands,they Oh, they took them out
because he missed it, ya know, Itook them out. And he knew
exactly why because he didn'trun back on defense. And that's,
that's what we call the doublenegative, you know, we
understand human error and youmiss a shot. But that doesn't
(19:04):
mean you run back. And that wasthe thing with Jason, he just
shrugged it off. Okay, I misseda shot, you know. And so it's
you just got to stick with them.
And I think that's by growingrelationships, you build that
belief.
Eric Price (19:17):
And I think you also build that trust to with that
person when they have a brickbecause I don't know how many
times that we could findsimilarities in leadership when
those folks underneath us throwa brick and we move away from
him. And that is a greatlearning opportunity for him
right? Like now they canactually become better with that
trust in the relationship of Ididn't go away from you. I
(19:39):
didn't bench you. I'm like, Ibelieve in Yeah. So I see that
in your culture perspective aswell. Do you see that with the
people in your leadership?
Coach Jim Johnson (19:47):
Yeah, you really struck a good chord there
EP with the fact that because inmy career, I took over four
basketball programs. The firstone was an absolute disaster. We
won one game And they told meafter the season, we don't want
you back. So that was a good wayto start your varsity career.
But then I ended up taking overthree other programs. In fact,
(20:10):
two high schools in my hometownthat had been losing. And were
able to turn around one of thethings that I appease people
asked me, you know, these twoquestions all the time, how do
you get to the top? And this isa process that I talk about
leadership. And then number twois the harder question, how do
you stay at the top because oneof the things obviously, the J
Mac game was my most proudestmoment in coaching Byron on. But
(20:32):
if you'd asked me what wasanother problem, and is the fact
that consistency, we actuallymade 14 Straight sectional,
Final Fours. And in my last 11years, we made the finals eight
times one, six. So that wassomething because how do you
stay at the top? And one of thethings you brought up, that's so
essential, one of my leadershipkeys is building trust. And what
(20:56):
I really pushed leaders on, doyou have a plan to build trust?
Because every ill there's notanyone when I do a presentation,
you'll ask How many think it'simportant to have trust in your
team and everybody has theirit's something that is
absolutely necessary. But one ofthe things that I did after my
exists or my first one is when Itook over a new program with my
(21:19):
staff, I would share our threeideas on how we wanted to build
trust.
Erich Bolz (21:25):
Coach, a couple of follow up questions for you, and
and kind of dealer's choice, butwe'd like you to cover both
ground, doing some researchlistening specifically to your
episode on Darren PepperidgePodcast, episode 10, I was
really struck by two things.
One, I completely believe thatthe separations and the
preparation and you are clearlya student of basketball, and
never got so egotistical thatyou stopped learning. So you
(21:47):
know, love to talk about theimpact and how you transmit that
to others. The other thing I'dlove to hear is, you know, you
are into distributed leadershipas a basketball coach, before
leadership was cool. You talkedon that podcast about a
situation where the team was nottogether, you couldn't bring
them together. So you finallybrought them together and said,
I'm at a loss. And I think whenwe kind of pulled the best
solutions from the people in theroom, we all win. But I can tell
(22:09):
you in 1985, my basketballcoaches in high school didn't
work that way. So I'm interestedin how did you become ahead of
your time in that regard? Soexpound on those two things, if
you would,
Coach Jim Johnson (22:21):
is the first thing you talked about a little
bit about, you know, how do youstay at the top? I think that
starts with the leader. Youknow, I have another
presentation I do called the 10questions, all effective
leaders, and it's all aboutshould be able to answer it's
all about personal leadership.
And one of the questions is, doyou have a personal growth plan,
because I think you got to beintentional, if you're going to
get better. In this second halfof my career, especially in now,
(22:44):
I still am an avid reader, Ilistened to a lot of podcasts.
Now, back then, of course, Ididn't, I was an audio program
junkie, I mean, Zig Ziglar, andJim Rohn. And, and Tony Robbins,
and all those, I always hadthose in my car, because back
then it was a cassette tape now.
(23:04):
But, you know, I just, you know,I think a huge thing it'd be an
effective leader is you got tobe curious, and, you know, the
world changes so fast. So yougot to continue to learn, and
then answer your second piece.
And again, this is somethingearly on, because I, you know, I
started coaching in 1981. So,you know, back then it was kind
of their command style, youknow, you know, quote, you
(23:26):
listen to the coach, you do whathe says,
Eric Price (23:29):
we are very familiar with that.
Coach Jim Johnson (23:33):
So you don't know what I'm talking about, is,
so as I started to study andlearn, and then try to use my
own personality, I want to besomeone that build people, you
know, and not tear them down.
And, and so like, one of thethings we talked about in
building trust, is that we wantto do more of catching people
doing right than catching whatthe rock because we often get
(23:53):
caught up in education,unfortunately, is an area that
happens a lot is, you know, thered marks on the paper, right?
So we're, you know, we'reconstantly trying to figure out
how we can catch people doingwrong, and really what it's all
about is catching andreinforcing the right things.
And I'm not saying that you'reblind. I mean, certainly we were
correcting our players when theymade mistakes and that kind of
(24:16):
thing. But you're gonna get moreof the things that you praise
and only praise because praisespecifically, do you want me to
share their quick story ballsyabout the team thing?
Erich Bolz (24:28):
I'm enraptured with everything you're saying, I
think, to our listeners, if youdidn't,
Coach Jim Johnson (24:34):
so this he goes back to the GMAC season. So
as I mentioned, we had a reallya lot of internal strife and the
team was divided. We had verygood team, but because we were
divided, we had lost three outof five games, and we shouldn't
lost any of them. And it was allbecause we just worked together.
And so we went to this Christmastournament, and the team that
(24:55):
hosted it was the biggest schoolin Rochester and they were very
good that year. And the reason Iwanted to go The tournament is
because we were supposed to bevery good. But the way we're
playing, we're in trouble. Inthe opening round, we won in a
very close game that we playedoff of the team we played wasn't
very good. In the team, thisFairport, the team, that was the
whole school in the next game,they won by 40 points in the
(25:17):
team. They had been we hadbeaten two weeks earlier in
double overtime. So because itwas during Christmas break?
Well, normally we do on days, agame that we don't have school
is we do in our practice, wecall it a shoot around. And
normally at a shoot around, webring the kids in, we bring out
some balls, we do some shooting,we go over some plays, you know,
(25:38):
review, kind of get the gameplan for the date. But I knew
I'd do something differentbecause we weren't together. So
I didn't bring out abasketballs. And the kids walked
in and go, coach, where's thebasketballs? We're not, we're
not using basketballs today. SoI brought them all over in the
bleachers. And I looked him deadin the eyes. And I shocked them.
I said, guys, I don't want to gothe game tonight. They looked at
(26:00):
me like what do you mean,there's a coach, you gotta go
the game. I said, Well, unlesswe decide we're gonna be
together. We're gonna lose by 50points the Fairport tonight
because we just can't be likethis. And the best thing I did,
what bowls he was referring tois, as I started doing a much
better job that year, and a fewyears before about listening my
(26:22):
players I said, guys, and Ithink one of the things you hear
a lot about, but this wouldn'tbe example I came out with and I
was vulnerable. I said, I don'thave the answers right now. I
said, You guys need to sharesome ideas and how we can unite
this team.
Eric Price (26:37):
How did your kids respond to that? Because that
was not the style, like as beingcoached? And I'm sure bowls, and
we were not like that ourcoaches, how did your kids
respond? So it was quiet.
Coach Jim Johnson (26:47):
And one of the things I learned is you wait
it out? And I said, so I just weprobably waited about 3045
seconds, which something
Eric Price (26:56):
like an hour.
Exactly. And so
Coach Jim Johnson (26:59):
then finally somebody said, Well, we got to
do this. And I said, that's agood cert, who else got an idea.
And we ended up talking thewhole hour, never brought a
basketball never went over aplay, never did any shooting.
And that night, we played eventhough we didn't win the game,
we lost his Fairport team anddouble overtime. And it just
(27:19):
showed what we could do and thatit really turned our season
around our kids started torealize this is what we got to
do when we went on a winningstreak and which led us into the
GMAT game. And then eventuallywinner sectional tournament.
Eric Price (27:32):
Coach Johnson, I'm hearing things like trust,
listen, culture, I mean, theseare things that are at the core
of what we believe as well, whenwe're looking at schools that
might not or shouldn't perform,you know, and, and are. So if
you could look at yourexperience in education, with
all of this thinking that you'vegot, we've got some principals
(27:55):
superintendents are listening,what would you say to say, hey,
here's what you need to do tohave a winning team, what would
you say to them? Well, I
Coach Jim Johnson (28:04):
do think it does start with you as the
leader. So you, as a leader havegot to own it first, only first.
So you got to have theaccountability, you got to be
willing, number one, to start todevelop a vision with getting
input from your staff and yourplayers. Number two is you got
to model the behaviors yourexpect day in and day out, like
(28:26):
one of our core values wasrespect all people. So if, if
I'm not if I'm disrespectful,and I wasn't perfect, once in a
while, I would say a few wordsto official just, of course,
just just to just to try to helpthem out. But you know, the one
thing that I really learned is,the more that I can model the
appropriate behaviors day in andday out, is so hugely important.
(28:51):
And then again, going back andrecognizing and making people
feel appreciated. Like we didsome things that are think a
little bit different. I mean, assimple as they were, like every
single kid in my basketballprogram, I had five teams in my
basketball program, two middleschool, three high school, every
single kid got a personalizedbirthday card for me. And so
(29:14):
those are things that arerecognizing, you know, you've
talked about how do you becomestudent athletes? Well, you
better praise them when they dowell. So when grades came out,
we always posted every kid thatmade eye roll high on a roll,
you know, any of those thingsthat was posted on our bulletin
board. It was brought up in ourteam meeting after grades were
out.
Eric Price (29:32):
So very different than high score, or Moses said,
Wow, that's impressive.
Coach Jim Johnson (29:37):
Now we had a really nice banquet at the end
of the year, we recognize a lotof different things. But during
this season, we only recognize afew things. For example, in
basketball, one of the thingshard to get kids to do,
especially in high school is totake a defensive charge because
it's painful, right? But wepraised it, but that was one of
the few things that we gavetangible recommendation if they
(29:58):
drew a charge in prayer had toserve game they would receive a
Gatorade. Like most of thethings, yes, we had verbal
praise, and we were those kindsof things. And, you know, like,
I would send kids notes torecognize them for different
things. But at the same time,things that that are a little
bit harder that are out of theordinary, you got to make sure
you really go a little bit aboveand behind and recognizing them.
(30:21):
And then I think the other thingthough, just reinforced, is
building culture is gettingclarity of what the expectations
are in living that day in andday out. And a thing I learned
is effective leaders are theCROs, of course what is that?
They're the chief remindingofficers, you have to continue
(30:45):
to share the mission and thevalues every single day. And if
you don't, because there shouldbe clarity, you know, what are
our most you know, what is ourmission? We're gonna develop
winners off the core, what areour most important values being
a great team member was onebeing respectful to all okay,
you know, those are things wewere looking for.
Eric Price (31:05):
Well, Coach Holy smokes, this could go on for a
couple of hours, but this is thetime now that we ship into bowls
bowls is our summation samuraiand he's gonna tell us hey, this
is this is what goes on at Bosewhat he got for us why
Erich Bolz (31:19):
I think you might have stopped me cold with
summation samurai oh, we're
Eric Price (31:23):
kind of alliteration more. Yeah. Wow.
Erich Bolz (31:25):
Well, like you said, EP, I have a ton here. And as
I'm thinking about our podcast,and start to think about all
these beautiful themes andcategories that that really map
to leadership map to thecomponents of our outliers
study, I've been kind ofthinking about the categories. I
don't know where we put this onebecause it maps to just about
darn near me. I know, verybeginning about the first thing
I heard was in the GMAC story,just the acknowledgement of the
(31:47):
power, perseverance. And I mean,what a great story. Four years
of commitment. Here's a kid whogave more than he got. And you
know, the first example of whenyou give more than you get,
yeah, you know, when you're whenan SP, right. The first example
I just love to give first, lovethe viral VHS tape back in the
day. 2006. Right. So the VHStape that takes you to ESPN. And
(32:08):
worldwide, when we give morethan we get exponential things
happen. Coach is a nationalauthority and leadership. He's
written the book, multiple TVappearances, all things I'm sure
as a high school basketballcoach, and I'm going to talk
about this a little bit more onthe summary. Because this really
resonates with me, I'm the sonof a high school basketball
coach. And so this, this wholeepisodes really pulled at my
heartstrings a little bit. Ithink most high school
(32:31):
basketball coaches don't thinkthat I'm going to parlay my high
school basketball coachingcareer into into national, if
not worldwide fame on that onthe leadership platform. So
another beautiful example ofwhen you give you get things
back, I love the next play andthe double negative that you
know, in this life, we makemistakes, we fail forward, we
don't fail over and over againthe same way. So leaning right
(32:53):
into culture, and relationshipsare everything, which is
everything we believe at theCenter for educational
effectiveness. That's what wemeasure inside of our survey
work. And if you think about JimCollins and the hedgehog
concept, we are the best in theworld at measuring culture
inside of our organization. It'sabsolutely what we believe. How
do you stay on top? You know,how do we sustain excellence,
you build trust, and to me thatwas just a real overt through
(33:14):
line that absolutely has to becalled out. It also calls out
three of our other podcastepisodes. Craig Randall, his
trust base, we're on episode 17.
That's completely talking aboutschool culture in Episode 12.
And Chuck Salina and SuzanneGertz and their entire framework
revolving around relationaltrust. And in Episode 10, I
mean, all absolutely related towhat Coach said today. So
(33:34):
apparently, there's a body ofevidence emerging that suggests
that this is absolutely theright way. Do you have a growth
plan? I think, you know, how Iended up around 230 pounds is
for lack. And so my my one wordthis year is transform. So if
I'm going to transform my body,I have to I have to redouble on
that plan. I do a great job withthe exercises, the eating that
(33:56):
gets in the way. We build peopleup, we don't tear him down.
We're gonna sustain excellence.
We kept people doing thingsright. And again, that really
resonated with me with thetrauma informed work that we've
seen Jim sport leaders episodeon on chapter nine. If you
haven't seen Jim's documentary,film, Paper Tigers, it's every
bit as inspirational as whatCoach Johnson and Jay Mac are
(34:16):
doing. Corey Callahan talksabout it in Episode Seven. And
Greg Benner, of course talksabout it in episode six. So he
hit on a lot of those things. Ilove the idea and the protocol I
use, I call it why what but theidea that we find out why things
aren't working, why are we notplaying together as a team? And
then what are we going to doabout it pulling those solutions
from the people in the room isthe most effective form of
(34:37):
leadership. And Coach Johnsonwas a little bit Michael J. Fox,
maybe back in the day because hewas operating in the future.
That's not how it works in the80s is we can all attest. And
again, that's that's justanother way of taking data to
action. We've got antidotal datathat we're not playing well. So
how do we convert that toaction? Well, we asked we asked
the kids what can they do? Theycome up with solutions. You want
(34:58):
a basketball game so great.
metaphor for improvement just ingeneral, the solutions in the
room, the leader, the leader hasto model what they want. They're
the chief reminder officer, andI want to give a shout out to my
dad who's 75 year old retiredsuperintendent, principal
teacher, 11 years of basketballcoaching and in his teaching
experience as well. And what mydad would say about leadership
is it's really about doingwhatever needed to ensure their
(35:20):
post success. So want to give ashout out to my dad who's still
with us. It's 75 years old, Iknow this episode's gonna
resonate with him and justhearing you tugged on my
heartstrings coach, I could keepsummarizing but Holy smokes. The
last thing I want to say is heeven gets into pedagogy and
talks about personalizedacknowledgement specific praise
and, and John Hattie, somewheredown in Melbourne, Australia is
(35:42):
just smiling. Thanks for gettingeducational research in there as
well. You are an absolutelyphenomenal guest and wonderful
person to speak with. And it wasjust at our absolute honor
privilege to have you on theshow.
Eric Price (35:57):
Coach, I gotta I gotta say this You you function
like a perfect plant. Like youtalked about everything
seriously, like everything thatwe have been muddling around in
research and our experience.
Holy smokes, you justhighlighted it. So you know from
the listening, a modeling thechief reminder officer, that
trust in the relationship. Niceplant job coach. So thank you
(36:21):
for being on the show with ustoday.
Coach Jim Johnson (36:24):
My pleasure.
It's great to great to be mywebsite is coach Jim jetson.com.
That way I wouldn't forget it. Ihave a bunch of different free
things. I have a YouTube channelthat I share a lot of different
information. I have a weeklyblog and also a monthly
newsletter. And certainly I if Ican ever make an impact. I do a
lot of work with schools and andbusinesses and that type of
(36:47):
thing that can help with yourculture leadership. Actually,
lastly, I just started a newpresentation. You brought it up.
I call it who's your J Mac. It'sabout inclusion. Awesome.
Eric Price (37:00):
Coach. Thanks again.
I think that to summarize this,you'd have to go back and listen
to it again. But thank you somuch for your words of wisdom
for us as leaders, and and theway that we can serve those that
we lead, I think is somethingthat I think we missed today in
in the way in which we are doingleadership I think is moving
back towards the 80sUnfortunately and the do as I
(37:21):
say so, again, if you want thatcoach Jim johnson.com to get it
coach his stuff, coach. Thanksagain. My pleasure.
Erich Bolz (37:30):
Thanks to all of you for joining us today on outliers
and education. You can find thisepisode and more anywhere you
listen to your favorite podcast,or visit us
online@effectiveness.org. Untilnext time, this has been
outliers in education.
AD VO (37:48):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive change inyour school or district. Take a
moment to visit CEE the Centerfor Educational
effectiveness@effectiveness.orgBetter data better decisions,
better schools effectiveness.org
Outliers in Education is brought to you by C E, the
Center for educationaleffectiveness, better data,
better decisions, better schoolsto find out more visit
effectiveness.org.
Eric Price (00:14):
Ever heard the story of J Mac? It's a basketball tale
for the ages. But even moreimportantly, it's a story about
the power of teachers andmentors have to help young
people realize their dreams.
We're taking it to the hoop withCoach Jim Johnson today on
Outliers in Education.
AD VO (00:31):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we do
in schools,Everything that we do as
educators, it just comes back topeople
I love it even when it's hard,especially when it's hard.
Eric Price (00:43):
Ultimately, I mean, this is about what's best for
kids. Eric Bryce here with mylongtime teammate, Eric Bowles,
from the Center for educationaleffectiveness. Welcome to
another episode of outliers ineducation, where we've been
pinching ourselves lately overthe incredible guests we've been
fortunate to have on the show.
ballsy. I understand you had anillustrious high school
(01:04):
basketball career. Do youremember the story of Jay Mac?
Erich Bolz (01:08):
Well, one of those two things is true EP I
absolutely remember the story ofJ-Mac in terms of my illustrious
high school basketball career.
That'd be a really, really shortconversation on our website, for
those of you who are listeningright now, so gotta do a little
poor podcasting. I do have animage from 1985, the fall of my
senior year where it'sappropriate because I'm in my
(01:28):
warmup, which is how I spentmost of the years it turns out
the running through the GMACstory, it's been really well
chronicled. I first learned ofit overseeing special education
in my last post is AssistantSuperintendent Pasco school
district. And it's really been aforce for inclusion inclusivity
in the special ed community. Andthen as it turns out, everybody
knows the story, that incrediblegift by a coach to a loyal team
(01:50):
manager who comes in, lights himup for 20 in the one game that
he plays, and then you know,make a long story short, he
beats out Kobe Bryant to Jay Macbeat up Kobe Bryant for the SP.
So the bottom line is ESPN andeverybody else's chronicle this
a whole lot better than we can.
And Coach Johnson is aforerunner in knowing so many
(02:12):
things about leadership ahead ofwhere I think my basketball
coaches were in 1985. And we'rereally excited to get into that
story. So I can't wait tointerview Coach Johnson. It's
gonna be an amazing conversationtoday. Well,
Eric Price (02:23):
it is our great good fortune to have the man who made
that call with us here today.
Coach Jim Johnson developed awinning high school basketball
teams for over 30 years, and hislife really hit the spotlight
after that day that you'rereferencing bowls on the court
with Jay Mac. today. He's amotivational speaker and a
recognized authority on thesubject of realizing your
dreams. Coach Johnson, reallyhappy to have you. Welcome to
(02:44):
the show.
Coach Jim Johnson (02:47):
Thank you EP and Bolzie. So looking forward
to our conversation.
Eric Price (02:51):
Well, I'm sure it's safe to say the back in the day
in 2006. It made quite a bit ofa difference in the trajectory
of your life. But but that justwasn't an everyday call for you.
What led you kind of to thatpoint of allowing J Mac that
kind of opportunity in thatgame?
Coach Jim Johnson (03:06):
Well, one of the things I always talk to
young people about is that, youknow, when you make a
commitment, and you serve first,it'll come back to you. And just
to give you a little background,a Jason, Jason came into our
program. He was a little guy. Hewas like five 690 pounds soaking
wet as a sophomore in highschool. He tried out for the JV
(03:28):
team, I was the varsity coachand our JV coach came to me.
After a few days of tryouts. Hesays, Coach, we got a young man.
He's on the autism spectrum atthat point that was 2003. So we
didn't know a lot about autism.
And he said, But no, he can'tplay a lick. He's got a he's got
a big heart. And he lovesbasketball. He loves the
(03:49):
players. I think we should keepin the program. So what do you
got in mind? He says, I'm goingto offer him the team manager's
job but I'm a little practicewith the team every day and
that's what he did. And, youknow, I I started to get to know
him because he would not only goto the JV game, but the varsity
game normally was right afterthat. So he would stay on the
bench and stay for the varsitygame. So I just got started to
(04:11):
get to know Him. In fact, I takehim the nickname Jake make
because I couldn't pronounce hislast name. Fortunately, he liked
the nickname and it stuck. Andit's funny because half the
school didn't know his realname. They just know him as J
Mac. So what the other thingthat was amazing though, is you
know, after sophomore year, hecame to our all our offseason
(04:33):
workouts we you know, we put alot of commitments on our
players, because we wanted to bereally good and he came to
everything. And you know, hestill wasn't very good. But man,
this kid, he just I started Istarted picking him up at his
house and, and he just lovedbasketball. He would always be
you know, because I lovebasketball too. So we'd share
(04:54):
basketball stories and so hecomes out for the team as a
junior and he doesn't make itbut he serves as my team
manager. And ironically, we hadnever won our section five
championship i At that point,I've been a fairly successful
coach, if you want to go winsand losses, we have many teams,
but we were never winning oursectional term, we in fact, we
(05:14):
lost five times in the sectionalsemifinal going into Jason's Jr.
So he adopts his mind traderfirst BD says, Coach, we know
you've never won a section fivechampion says, Thanks, Jason,
for the reminder, I appreciateit. He says, but we're going to
adopt the slogan this year,we're going to stay focused, and
(05:36):
we're going to help you win yourfirst sexified championship. So
he said look great. So we hit agood season ago, we got to the
semi finals now for the sixthtime in my career, and we lose
at the buzzer to our crosstownrival. So we're devastated. But
it never deterred GMAC again, hecame to all our offseason
workouts, try it out his senioryear. And still, our program was
strong, and he had grown. He'slike up to five, nine, maybe 110
(06:00):
pounds. So he's still quitesmall in stature. And so when I
bring them in during trials andsaid, Jason, unfortunately,
you're not quite good enough tomake the team and I want you to
serve as manager. But you'vebeen so committed to our
program. And I think this is agreat life lesson for all of us
is that when you show that youwill give first and that Jason
(06:21):
would always give he was alwaysthe first one on practice. He
would do anything for the kids.
He brings snacks to practice, hedo all kinds of stuff. And so I
said, I'm gonna give you a gift.
And he goes, what do you got inmind coach, this is for senior
day. He goes, I'm a senior I go,I know. I'm going to give you
uniform and hopefully get youinto the game. And he hadn't
(06:43):
suited up to this point. Itnever he had actually suited up
for one JV game. But he hadnever been in a varsity game as
well. So it's senior night. It'salways a special night. We
recognize all our seniors beforethe game and and so I really
wanted to get him in but Iwasn't sure my whole goal is I
thought if I could get him inwith enough time so he could
(07:06):
score Basque I thought Davidsonmemory wheelchairs Rush was
like, so I wanted to get him inwith enough time. So instead of
just making a cameo, so Idecided with just over four
minutes to go. I'm gonna justlet him play the game. So he
comes in. And the crazy thingis, is I'm usually a pretty
macho guy, and normally don'tcall it cry basketball. But what
happened was when he entered thecourt, one of our parents, he
(07:30):
was kind of our unofficialphotographer. He had given all
these pictures, he turned theminto placards, he put them on
paint sticks, and he gave thestudent body with a good student
body falling, they callthemselves a six man. And he
told the student body if the ifJ neck gets in the game showed
all these pictures. So Jason, Ihad no idea this happened. So
(07:51):
when he enters the Corps for thefirst time, they give him a
standing ovation and they showall these pictures. And I still
to this day get choked up. I waslike, oh my god, I can't believe
all their greed, you know? So Isit down in tears. My sisters go
to you okay, I go. I just can'tbelieve how they greeted him
like that. So he gets to thegame. First time we have the
wall. Our one of our team teammembers throws him the ball in
(08:15):
the right corner. He's got athree point shot in the crowd
kindness, deeds, anticipation.
It misses by like six feet. It'snot even close. And you guys be
in in public schools. You know,you're not supposed to pray in
the public school, but I waspraying. Please, God, please
help him release hit the roof.
So the night next possession, hegets a short shot for about 10
(08:37):
feet and this time it hits thebackboard and hits the rim and
falls off. I pick it alright,God started to listen. And so
the third possession, he getsanother three point or this time
for the right way. He lets it gomagic. It goes in the place just
explodes. And I'm thinking tomyself, God must be a basketball
fan. He's got a three point or akicker. And then as you guys
(09:01):
mentioned about Kobe, Kobe washis idol. And it for the next
three minutes he literallyturned into Kobe and he started
making shot after shot in theplaces going crazier crazier.
And the other thing that a lotof people don't know is he made
six three pointers. But hisseventh basket his foot was on
(09:22):
the line. He literally is twoinches from seven three
pointers, which would havebroken the school record at the
Eric Price (09:28):
toe. Wow, crazy.
Erich Bolz (09:31):
The other team playing soccer was this just a
transformational moment?
Coach Jim Johnson (09:35):
You know what it was a combination. I mean,
they were like all over him. Butyou know, is a lot of people
brought up it's not easy to makesix three pointers if you're
standing by yourself. Yeah,exactly. So they were guarded,
but they weren't like trying toblack
Eric Price (09:48):
shatter anything.
And then I know kind of the dealof Jamie. I talked to the
Coach Jim Johnson (09:53):
coach because we had played them earlier in
the year and he was all for it.
Everybody in the Elite Leagueknew Jason so it was So, so I,
but I do gotta take you throughthe end of the game because it
was literally out of Hollywood.
So he has scored all thesebaskets in the in the last
possession spencerport I do wantto give kudos to their team,
their coach. They were reallygracious that night, but they
(10:15):
score with about 10 seconds ago.
So our player takes a lot ofbounce and normally you throw to
a point guard Jason I kid himstill this day because I still
see him all the time is Jay Mac,I'm still looking for your first
assists. He never passed theball why?
Erich Bolz (10:30):
I can relate to that code.
Coach Jim Johnson (10:33):
But this last possession is a little different
because instead of him throwingto a point guard at source,
right, TJ Maxx or TJ Maxx likedribbling down the court. I see
the clock ticking. And I thoughtthey're just gonna let him go in
and he'd shoot like a layup andthe game. Oh no, he pulls up
like two feet behind the arc.
It's almost the NBA three. Don'tshoot for there. They're gonna
hold the moment. He watches thisrainbow swish. The ball goes
(10:55):
through as the buzzer goes off.
I look over our student bodyruns on the floor our players
run the only thing I can thinkof is Oh my god. I've lived in
the movie Rudy. But this istheir point. I had no idea when
he points he has in our playersput them up on their shoulder.
He's got the gable overhead andour public address announcer
(11:17):
comes out and says the leadscorer for the Trojans. Tonight
GMAC with 20 points. That is anawesome. Like, I think of my
math brain because he literallyplayed a half a quarter if he'd
played the whole game, he scored106 There's so many life lessons
about share one last thing, andthen I'm open to any questions.
Yeah, but uh, is that thegreatest thing we had, I wrote a
(11:41):
book about a call to coach and amiracle. And that season was the
most unique season I ever had.
Because I nearly resigned earlyseason, we had a lot of issues
that I don't want to delve intotoo deeply. I did share about it
in the book. And then the teamfinally came around. And you
talked about the essence ofteamwork. I had never asked the
four players on the on the courtto pass on the wall yet they
decided on their own hearts.
(12:03):
They pass it to him every time.
And it's something that still tothis day touches me deeply.
Eric Price (12:08):
That is very cool.
Erich Bolz (12:10):
Well, well, coach, as you know, and appreciate the
research that you've done on us.
And we did quite a bit ofresearch on you as well. This
This podcast was really born outof out of a public good study
that we did on outliers,positive outliers, schools in
the state of Washington. And wehave 11 common conditions. And
we look for guests that reallyexemplify those common
conditions, one of those insideof readiness to benefit is
developing a strong culture onthe premise that all students
(12:33):
are our students. And you know,the JMac story is just a
beautiful extension of that. Soyou've touched on it, but tell
us, Otto we benefit when weinclude others. And what were
some of those incredibleunintended benefits of, of just
your style of service?
Coach Jim Johnson (12:50):
Well, I think the one thing you know, you
preach like our mission statefor more our program was to
develop winners on and off thecourt. And so we really wanted
to build the complete person notjust as a basketball player.
And, you know, the beauty ofJason, you know, to give you an
idea how much he was in theteam, I'll share two side things
were pretty amazing. You know,after that season, because he
(13:14):
had first of all after that gameabout three days later, I and I
thought I did it for all theright reasons. We had no media
there. But actually, Jasonspeech pathologist that I didn't
know very well, he came thisfirst game we ever gone to. He
called one of the local TVstations the next day and said
you got to borrow but it was aVHS tape. Yeah. And they showed
(13:35):
it and it got so within threedays, we had ESPN call it ABC
News. I mean, it was just crazy.
But the amazing thing was isthat now Jason's getting this
publicity all over the world.
And between him and I, we wereon all kinds of shows and stuff.
But he he had to go back histeam manager, he knew that
upfront yet. When peopleinterview him after the season,
(13:59):
because we went out and won ourfirst section five championship
that year, is people would askthem what was the best thing
about your senior year leadingthem into you know, they want to
hear about his game, right? Andhe would say when he won section
five championship, of course. Soyou know, that's what kind of
team player he was. And I thinkif you could get people all
(14:19):
believing in a common cause. Andthen recognizing that I think is
really powerful because cultureis built day in and day out. And
I think it's the huge thing isgetting clarity of the mission
clear clarity, the values, andthen I think something we forget
a lot, and I got a lot better atthat. Second half of my career
(14:40):
is remember, you're the personthat starts that you lead by
example. And if you're notembracing and living their
culture day in and day out,believe me your team members
won't either.
Erich Bolz (14:50):
Well, we are an absolute culture first company
Coach Johnson so that reallyresonated with me and really
interested in you know, when youextend an opportunity and
includes Somebody like Jason,talk about how the benefits come
back to you, the team, theschool, how that's changed your
life, because I think we oftendon't think about that impact
coming back to us when we dosomething unique and extend that
(15:12):
inclusivity to others.
Coach Jim Johnson (15:13):
Well, you know, what I think is something
I've learned in life is, is whenyou do things consistently, for
the right reasons, I thinkthings tend to come back much
better. I mean, not in mywildest dreams, would I ever
thought I'd write a book, youknow, speak all over the country
and inspiration and leadershipand teamwork and all that. So
(15:34):
it's been a real privilege.
Hopefully someday, right now, wedon't have a movie. But we did
want to have one at one time,but we're hoping because it to
me, it's such a great story. Ithink I'd love to see some how
we can get it back. So we canhave a movie on it someday. But
the greatest lesson is you hearit in sometimes you don't
believe it's true. But I thinkthere's a lot of truth to that
(15:55):
is the more you give, the moreyou get. Okay,
Eric Price (16:00):
we're gonna take a quick timeout here for a word
from our sponsors, but don'tgive up your seat in the
bleachers because we've got alot more from Coach Johnson,
right here on outliers andeducation.
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Eric Price (17:15):
Welcome back, everybody. We're checking back
into the game with Coach JimJohnson. So Coach going back to
that piece like my last post inpublic education, I was at a K
six school and we were kind ofthe magnet for all the autistic
kids in the district. So myheartstrings also when I'm
reading, you know, watching thatI'm I'm tearing up to So J Mac
(17:35):
comes on the court, his firstthree is a brick, right? And,
and then and now you're likeholy smoke, I got an autistic
kid, you know, all these thingsare built up, he throws a brick,
what are you thinking as aleader? And you said you had
this kind of evolution as aleader? How did you see your
evolution as a leader there inthat place? Like nomina? Believe
in Him? I'm going to keep going.
How do you see that?
Coach Jim Johnson (17:57):
I think the biggest thing is staying with
that belief through adversity,because, you know, I couldn't
have probably thought of a worseway for him to start the game.
This is first shot by about sixfeet. But you know what I mean,
it really came back to I wantedto do something nice for him
because he had done so many nicethings for our program. It I
(18:21):
knew that you know what? Becauseone of the things we preached
all the time, and he really wasa great example of is, is next
play because basketball is afast game. Yeah. So you know,
you miss a shot. You can't beworried Vic I used to we called
it a double negative. So, youknow, the famous one is the guy
misses a wide open layup, okay.
And there's no one more bearishthan the kid that missed that
(18:43):
wide open layup. But then, ofsometimes it would take the kid
out. And most of the time Iwould. And you know, for the
common people in the stands,they Oh, they took them out
because he missed it, ya know, Itook them out. And he knew
exactly why because he didn'trun back on defense. And that's,
that's what we call the doublenegative, you know, we
understand human error and youmiss a shot. But that doesn't
(19:04):
mean you run back. And that wasthe thing with Jason, he just
shrugged it off. Okay, I misseda shot, you know. And so it's
you just got to stick with them.
And I think that's by growingrelationships, you build that
belief.
Eric Price (19:17):
And I think you also build that trust to with that
person when they have a brickbecause I don't know how many
times that we could findsimilarities in leadership when
those folks underneath us throwa brick and we move away from
him. And that is a greatlearning opportunity for him
right? Like now they canactually become better with that
trust in the relationship of Ididn't go away from you. I
(19:39):
didn't bench you. I'm like, Ibelieve in Yeah. So I see that
in your culture perspective aswell. Do you see that with the
people in your leadership?
Coach Jim Johnson (19:47):
Yeah, you really struck a good chord there
EP with the fact that because inmy career, I took over four
basketball programs. The firstone was an absolute disaster. We
won one game And they told meafter the season, we don't want
you back. So that was a good wayto start your varsity career.
But then I ended up taking overthree other programs. In fact,
(20:10):
two high schools in my hometownthat had been losing. And were
able to turn around one of thethings that I appease people
asked me, you know, these twoquestions all the time, how do
you get to the top? And this isa process that I talk about
leadership. And then number twois the harder question, how do
you stay at the top because oneof the things obviously, the J
Mac game was my most proudestmoment in coaching Byron on. But
(20:32):
if you'd asked me what wasanother problem, and is the fact
that consistency, we actuallymade 14 Straight sectional,
Final Fours. And in my last 11years, we made the finals eight
times one, six. So that wassomething because how do you
stay at the top? And one of thethings you brought up, that's so
essential, one of my leadershipkeys is building trust. And what
(20:56):
I really pushed leaders on, doyou have a plan to build trust?
Because every ill there's notanyone when I do a presentation,
you'll ask How many think it'simportant to have trust in your
team and everybody has theirit's something that is
absolutely necessary. But one ofthe things that I did after my
exists or my first one is when Itook over a new program with my
(21:19):
staff, I would share our threeideas on how we wanted to build
trust.
Erich Bolz (21:25):
Coach, a couple of follow up questions for you, and
and kind of dealer's choice, butwe'd like you to cover both
ground, doing some researchlistening specifically to your
episode on Darren PepperidgePodcast, episode 10, I was
really struck by two things.
One, I completely believe thatthe separations and the
preparation and you are clearlya student of basketball, and
never got so egotistical thatyou stopped learning. So you
(21:47):
know, love to talk about theimpact and how you transmit that
to others. The other thing I'dlove to hear is, you know, you
are into distributed leadershipas a basketball coach, before
leadership was cool. You talkedon that podcast about a
situation where the team was nottogether, you couldn't bring
them together. So you finallybrought them together and said,
I'm at a loss. And I think whenwe kind of pulled the best
solutions from the people in theroom, we all win. But I can tell
(22:09):
you in 1985, my basketballcoaches in high school didn't
work that way. So I'm interestedin how did you become ahead of
your time in that regard? Soexpound on those two things, if
you would,
Coach Jim Johnson (22:21):
is the first thing you talked about a little
bit about, you know, how do youstay at the top? I think that
starts with the leader. Youknow, I have another
presentation I do called the 10questions, all effective
leaders, and it's all aboutshould be able to answer it's
all about personal leadership.
And one of the questions is, doyou have a personal growth plan,
because I think you got to beintentional, if you're going to
get better. In this second halfof my career, especially in now,
(22:44):
I still am an avid reader, Ilistened to a lot of podcasts.
Now, back then, of course, Ididn't, I was an audio program
junkie, I mean, Zig Ziglar, andJim Rohn. And, and Tony Robbins,
and all those, I always hadthose in my car, because back
then it was a cassette tape now.
(23:04):
But, you know, I just, you know,I think a huge thing it'd be an
effective leader is you got tobe curious, and, you know, the
world changes so fast. So yougot to continue to learn, and
then answer your second piece.
And again, this is somethingearly on, because I, you know, I
started coaching in 1981. So,you know, back then it was kind
of their command style, youknow, you know, quote, you
(23:26):
listen to the coach, you do whathe says,
Eric Price (23:29):
we are very familiar with that.
Coach Jim Johnson (23:33):
So you don't know what I'm talking about, is,
so as I started to study andlearn, and then try to use my
own personality, I want to besomeone that build people, you
know, and not tear them down.
And, and so like, one of thethings we talked about in
building trust, is that we wantto do more of catching people
doing right than catching whatthe rock because we often get
(23:53):
caught up in education,unfortunately, is an area that
happens a lot is, you know, thered marks on the paper, right?
So we're, you know, we'reconstantly trying to figure out
how we can catch people doingwrong, and really what it's all
about is catching andreinforcing the right things.
And I'm not saying that you'reblind. I mean, certainly we were
correcting our players when theymade mistakes and that kind of
(24:16):
thing. But you're gonna get moreof the things that you praise
and only praise because praisespecifically, do you want me to
share their quick story ballsyabout the team thing?
Erich Bolz (24:28):
I'm enraptured with everything you're saying, I
think, to our listeners, if youdidn't,
Coach Jim Johnson (24:34):
so this he goes back to the GMAC season. So
as I mentioned, we had a reallya lot of internal strife and the
team was divided. We had verygood team, but because we were
divided, we had lost three outof five games, and we shouldn't
lost any of them. And it was allbecause we just worked together.
And so we went to this Christmastournament, and the team that
(24:55):
hosted it was the biggest schoolin Rochester and they were very
good that year. And the reason Iwanted to go The tournament is
because we were supposed to bevery good. But the way we're
playing, we're in trouble. Inthe opening round, we won in a
very close game that we playedoff of the team we played wasn't
very good. In the team, thisFairport, the team, that was the
whole school in the next game,they won by 40 points in the
(25:17):
team. They had been we hadbeaten two weeks earlier in
double overtime. So because itwas during Christmas break?
Well, normally we do on days, agame that we don't have school
is we do in our practice, wecall it a shoot around. And
normally at a shoot around, webring the kids in, we bring out
some balls, we do some shooting,we go over some plays, you know,
(25:38):
review, kind of get the gameplan for the date. But I knew
I'd do something differentbecause we weren't together. So
I didn't bring out abasketballs. And the kids walked
in and go, coach, where's thebasketballs? We're not, we're
not using basketballs today. SoI brought them all over in the
bleachers. And I looked him deadin the eyes. And I shocked them.
I said, guys, I don't want to gothe game tonight. They looked at
(26:00):
me like what do you mean,there's a coach, you gotta go
the game. I said, Well, unlesswe decide we're gonna be
together. We're gonna lose by 50points the Fairport tonight
because we just can't be likethis. And the best thing I did,
what bowls he was referring tois, as I started doing a much
better job that year, and a fewyears before about listening my
(26:22):
players I said, guys, and Ithink one of the things you hear
a lot about, but this wouldn'tbe example I came out with and I
was vulnerable. I said, I don'thave the answers right now. I
said, You guys need to sharesome ideas and how we can unite
this team.
Eric Price (26:37):
How did your kids respond to that? Because that
was not the style, like as beingcoached? And I'm sure bowls, and
we were not like that ourcoaches, how did your kids
respond? So it was quiet.
Coach Jim Johnson (26:47):
And one of the things I learned is you wait
it out? And I said, so I just weprobably waited about 3045
seconds, which something
Eric Price (26:56):
like an hour.
Exactly. And so
Coach Jim Johnson (26:59):
then finally somebody said, Well, we got to
do this. And I said, that's agood cert, who else got an idea.
And we ended up talking thewhole hour, never brought a
basketball never went over aplay, never did any shooting.
And that night, we played eventhough we didn't win the game,
we lost his Fairport team anddouble overtime. And it just
(27:19):
showed what we could do and thatit really turned our season
around our kids started torealize this is what we got to
do when we went on a winningstreak and which led us into the
GMAT game. And then eventuallywinner sectional tournament.
Eric Price (27:32):
Coach Johnson, I'm hearing things like trust,
listen, culture, I mean, theseare things that are at the core
of what we believe as well, whenwe're looking at schools that
might not or shouldn't perform,you know, and, and are. So if
you could look at yourexperience in education, with
all of this thinking that you'vegot, we've got some principals
(27:55):
superintendents are listening,what would you say to say, hey,
here's what you need to do tohave a winning team, what would
you say to them? Well, I
Coach Jim Johnson (28:04):
do think it does start with you as the
leader. So you, as a leader havegot to own it first, only first.
So you got to have theaccountability, you got to be
willing, number one, to start todevelop a vision with getting
input from your staff and yourplayers. Number two is you got
to model the behaviors yourexpect day in and day out, like
(28:26):
one of our core values wasrespect all people. So if, if
I'm not if I'm disrespectful,and I wasn't perfect, once in a
while, I would say a few wordsto official just, of course,
just just to just to try to helpthem out. But you know, the one
thing that I really learned is,the more that I can model the
appropriate behaviors day in andday out, is so hugely important.
(28:51):
And then again, going back andrecognizing and making people
feel appreciated. Like we didsome things that are think a
little bit different. I mean, assimple as they were, like every
single kid in my basketballprogram, I had five teams in my
basketball program, two middleschool, three high school, every
single kid got a personalizedbirthday card for me. And so
(29:14):
those are things that arerecognizing, you know, you've
talked about how do you becomestudent athletes? Well, you
better praise them when they dowell. So when grades came out,
we always posted every kid thatmade eye roll high on a roll,
you know, any of those thingsthat was posted on our bulletin
board. It was brought up in ourteam meeting after grades were
out.
Eric Price (29:32):
So very different than high score, or Moses said,
Wow, that's impressive.
Coach Jim Johnson (29:37):
Now we had a really nice banquet at the end
of the year, we recognize a lotof different things. But during
this season, we only recognize afew things. For example, in
basketball, one of the thingshard to get kids to do,
especially in high school is totake a defensive charge because
it's painful, right? But wepraised it, but that was one of
the few things that we gavetangible recommendation if they
(29:58):
drew a charge in prayer had toserve game they would receive a
Gatorade. Like most of thethings, yes, we had verbal
praise, and we were those kindsof things. And, you know, like,
I would send kids notes torecognize them for different
things. But at the same time,things that that are a little
bit harder that are out of theordinary, you got to make sure
you really go a little bit aboveand behind and recognizing them.
(30:21):
And then I think the other thingthough, just reinforced, is
building culture is gettingclarity of what the expectations
are in living that day in andday out. And a thing I learned
is effective leaders are theCROs, of course what is that?
They're the chief remindingofficers, you have to continue
(30:45):
to share the mission and thevalues every single day. And if
you don't, because there shouldbe clarity, you know, what are
our most you know, what is ourmission? We're gonna develop
winners off the core, what areour most important values being
a great team member was onebeing respectful to all okay,
you know, those are things wewere looking for.
Eric Price (31:05):
Well, Coach Holy smokes, this could go on for a
couple of hours, but this is thetime now that we ship into bowls
bowls is our summation samuraiand he's gonna tell us hey, this
is this is what goes on at Bosewhat he got for us why
Erich Bolz (31:19):
I think you might have stopped me cold with
summation samurai oh, we're
Eric Price (31:23):
kind of alliteration more. Yeah. Wow.
Erich Bolz (31:25):
Well, like you said, EP, I have a ton here. And as
I'm thinking about our podcast,and start to think about all
these beautiful themes andcategories that that really map
to leadership map to thecomponents of our outliers
study, I've been kind ofthinking about the categories. I
don't know where we put this onebecause it maps to just about
darn near me. I know, verybeginning about the first thing
I heard was in the GMAC story,just the acknowledgement of the
(31:47):
power, perseverance. And I mean,what a great story. Four years
of commitment. Here's a kid whogave more than he got. And you
know, the first example of whenyou give more than you get,
yeah, you know, when you're whenan SP, right. The first example
I just love to give first, lovethe viral VHS tape back in the
day. 2006. Right. So the VHStape that takes you to ESPN. And
(32:08):
worldwide, when we give morethan we get exponential things
happen. Coach is a nationalauthority and leadership. He's
written the book, multiple TVappearances, all things I'm sure
as a high school basketballcoach, and I'm going to talk
about this a little bit more onthe summary. Because this really
resonates with me, I'm the sonof a high school basketball
coach. And so this, this wholeepisodes really pulled at my
heartstrings a little bit. Ithink most high school
(32:31):
basketball coaches don't thinkthat I'm going to parlay my high
school basketball coachingcareer into into national, if
not worldwide fame on that onthe leadership platform. So
another beautiful example ofwhen you give you get things
back, I love the next play andthe double negative that you
know, in this life, we makemistakes, we fail forward, we
don't fail over and over againthe same way. So leaning right
(32:53):
into culture, and relationshipsare everything, which is
everything we believe at theCenter for educational
effectiveness. That's what wemeasure inside of our survey
work. And if you think about JimCollins and the hedgehog
concept, we are the best in theworld at measuring culture
inside of our organization. It'sabsolutely what we believe. How
do you stay on top? You know,how do we sustain excellence,
you build trust, and to me thatwas just a real overt through
(33:14):
line that absolutely has to becalled out. It also calls out
three of our other podcastepisodes. Craig Randall, his
trust base, we're on episode 17.
That's completely talking aboutschool culture in Episode 12.
And Chuck Salina and SuzanneGertz and their entire framework
revolving around relationaltrust. And in Episode 10, I
mean, all absolutely related towhat Coach said today. So
(33:34):
apparently, there's a body ofevidence emerging that suggests
that this is absolutely theright way. Do you have a growth
plan? I think, you know, how Iended up around 230 pounds is
for lack. And so my my one wordthis year is transform. So if
I'm going to transform my body,I have to I have to redouble on
that plan. I do a great job withthe exercises, the eating that
(33:56):
gets in the way. We build peopleup, we don't tear him down.
We're gonna sustain excellence.
We kept people doing thingsright. And again, that really
resonated with me with thetrauma informed work that we've
seen Jim sport leaders episodeon on chapter nine. If you
haven't seen Jim's documentary,film, Paper Tigers, it's every
bit as inspirational as whatCoach Johnson and Jay Mac are
(34:16):
doing. Corey Callahan talksabout it in Episode Seven. And
Greg Benner, of course talksabout it in episode six. So he
hit on a lot of those things. Ilove the idea and the protocol I
use, I call it why what but theidea that we find out why things
aren't working, why are we notplaying together as a team? And
then what are we going to doabout it pulling those solutions
from the people in the room isthe most effective form of
(34:37):
leadership. And Coach Johnsonwas a little bit Michael J. Fox,
maybe back in the day because hewas operating in the future.
That's not how it works in the80s is we can all attest. And
again, that's that's justanother way of taking data to
action. We've got antidotal datathat we're not playing well. So
how do we convert that toaction? Well, we asked we asked
the kids what can they do? Theycome up with solutions. You want
(34:58):
a basketball game so great.
metaphor for improvement just ingeneral, the solutions in the
room, the leader, the leader hasto model what they want. They're
the chief reminder officer, andI want to give a shout out to my
dad who's 75 year old retiredsuperintendent, principal
teacher, 11 years of basketballcoaching and in his teaching
experience as well. And what mydad would say about leadership
is it's really about doingwhatever needed to ensure their
(35:20):
post success. So want to give ashout out to my dad who's still
with us. It's 75 years old, Iknow this episode's gonna
resonate with him and justhearing you tugged on my
heartstrings coach, I could keepsummarizing but Holy smokes. The
last thing I want to say is heeven gets into pedagogy and
talks about personalizedacknowledgement specific praise
and, and John Hattie, somewheredown in Melbourne, Australia is
(35:42):
just smiling. Thanks for gettingeducational research in there as
well. You are an absolutelyphenomenal guest and wonderful
person to speak with. And it wasjust at our absolute honor
privilege to have you on theshow.
Eric Price (35:57):
Coach, I gotta I gotta say this You you function
like a perfect plant. Like youtalked about everything
seriously, like everything thatwe have been muddling around in
research and our experience.
Holy smokes, you justhighlighted it. So you know from
the listening, a modeling thechief reminder officer, that
trust in the relationship. Niceplant job coach. So thank you
(36:21):
for being on the show with ustoday.
Coach Jim Johnson (36:24):
My pleasure.
It's great to great to be mywebsite is coach Jim jetson.com.
That way I wouldn't forget it. Ihave a bunch of different free
things. I have a YouTube channelthat I share a lot of different
information. I have a weeklyblog and also a monthly
newsletter. And certainly I if Ican ever make an impact. I do a
lot of work with schools and andbusinesses and that type of
(36:47):
thing that can help with yourculture leadership. Actually,
lastly, I just started a newpresentation. You brought it up.
I call it who's your J Mac. It'sabout inclusion. Awesome.
Eric Price (37:00):
Coach. Thanks again.
I think that to summarize this,you'd have to go back and listen
to it again. But thank you somuch for your words of wisdom
for us as leaders, and and theway that we can serve those that
we lead, I think is somethingthat I think we missed today in
in the way in which we are doingleadership I think is moving
back towards the 80sUnfortunately and the do as I
(37:21):
say so, again, if you want thatcoach Jim johnson.com to get it
coach his stuff, coach. Thanksagain. My pleasure.
Erich Bolz (37:30):
Thanks to all of you for joining us today on outliers
and education. You can find thisepisode and more anywhere you
listen to your favorite podcast,or visit us
online@effectiveness.org. Untilnext time, this has been
outliers in education.
AD VO (37:48):
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to help drive positive change inyour school or district. Take a
moment to visit CEE the Centerfor Educational
effectiveness@effectiveness.orgBetter data better decisions,
better schools effectiveness.org
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