April 1, 2023 • 32 mins
Lifelong newspaperman Rufus Woods provides a uniquely positive perspective on the pathways to a better educational system. Woods has been passionate about education his entire career and he has seen the good and the bad. Through the mental discipline of appreciative inquiry, Woods has developed a slate of positive and inspiring ideas on how to improve our current systems. Overarching philosophies like replacing "problem mentalities" with strengths-based approaches and improving our assessment systems combine with concrete concepts such as building better relationships with local media to the benefit of schools and seeking out proven practices, like those identified in CEE's Outliers Study, that have real impacts on student outcomes and wellness.
Rufus Woods is publisher emeritus of The Wenatchee World, a publication founded by his grandfather, Rufus Woods Sr. He continues to write regular opinion columns on the "Art of Community" which you can find HERE.
You can find the abstract and full version of CEE's Outliers Study HERE.
"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.
Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AD VO (00:00):
outliers in education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness: Better data,
Better decisions, Betterschools. To find out more visit
effectiveness.org.
Eric Price (00:12):
We are lucky to hear from amazing educators all the
time on this podcast. But whatabout all those thoughtful non
educators out there withsomething important that as they
say, you can't read the label ifyou're inside the jar, and today
we explore the view from theoutside, get ready for another
episode of outliers ineducation.
AD VO (00:32):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we do
in schools, everything that wedo as educators, it just comes
back to people
Unknown (00:40):
I love it even when it's hard, especially when it's
hard. Ultimately, I mean, thisis about what's best for kids.
Eric Price (00:47):
Hey, everybody, this is Eric price here with my good
friend and co host Eric Bowles,ready to go with another episode
of outliers in education. Andtypically on this podcast,
you'll hear us enjoyingconversation with top
educational leaders from aroundthe country, superintendents,
principals, etc. But you don'thave to be an educator to have
valuable insights into how wecan make our educational system
(01:07):
better. It's a matter of fact,we probably haven't done so for
well over a century. So todaycoming straight out of your
hometown of Wenatchee,Washington bosey We have Rufus
woods, publisher emeritus of theWenatchee world and an
accomplished journalist who iswritten frequently and
passionately about what'shappening in the world of
education. Rufus, welcome to theshow.
Rufus Woods (01:28):
Great to be here.
I'm a big fan of the work youguys are doing big fan of this
podcast and, and just excited tobe here and talking about about
how we make education availableto all kids and and do it in a
way that meets their needs andmeets them where they are. And
and so I'm happy to be here.
Erich Bolz (01:46):
We're certainly glad to have you and really got Well,
thinking it'd be great to haveyou on as a guest harkening back
to a couple years ago, we talkeda little bit about the outlier
study. I know you talked withJean Sherratt, one of the
primary authors as well. And itpiqued your interest enough to
write an op ed, what caused youto write that op ed in 2021?
Rufus Woods (02:05):
Great question, Eric. I really believe that,
that, you know, we need to dothings differently in DeJay, in
education, to to meet the needsfor all kids. And and and so I
saw this outlier study andwhat's working as is absolutely
essential. And and that reallygoes to the kind of the spirit
(02:28):
of appreciative inquiry, it goesto what what do we build, we're
building on strengths, ratherthan just identifying
weaknesses, what's wrong. And Ithink creating positive
constructive journey forward is,is absolutely essential in
education. It's also essentialin every other aspect of any
(02:50):
other organization as well.
Eric Price (02:52):
So, Rufus, when you talk about Appreciative Inquiry,
I hear you talk about startingfrom those strengths. Why do you
think that's such an importantpiece? When we take a look at
education?
Rufus Woods (03:03):
Well, if we focus just on the problems, you know,
it, it limits our perspective ofwhat's possible. And so but if
we look at what are we good atwhat is, you know, in terms of a
child, what does a child goodat? What do they care about?
What, what lights their fire? Ifwe're reaching them in that
(03:26):
personal space? And this is alsotrue for educators? If we're
not, if we're going at what areyou good at? And how can we
build upon that? And yes, wehave all we all have weaknesses,
we all have things we have towork on. But But if our core
focus is on what is what worksfor you, what what is helpful,
(03:48):
what builds upon your strengths,you know, that that really is
putting you in a position of, ofcreating, rather than trying to
offset things. If we're onlytalking about the things that
I'm not good at, then then, thenthat's going to send me a
message that that I'm not goodenough. And we just can't be
giving kids we can't be givingeducators, administrators that
(04:12):
message
Erich Bolz (04:12):
Well, segwaying into what we're not good at. We've
got a 20 plus year track recordin, in public education across
the country of conforming tohigh stakes testing. And that
has really become in in manyrespects, kind of our singular
focus for school improvement.
What are we missing with that?
With that approach, Rufus? Andwhat what have we lost?
Rufus Woods (04:34):
I think it's, it's terribly inappropriate to take
one measurement and say, this isthis is a proxy for for the
quality of education. And, andinstead of that we need to be
looking at at where are the kidsand where can we help them grow?
(04:57):
How can we create a positivecontext? Round which they can
see themselves in their journeyas a lead person in that
journey, and then take itforward, that speaks to teaching
and, and as an hour, as an artof, of meeting that kid where he
(05:18):
is, where he or she is, andthen, and then helping them, you
know, see what's see whatthey've got this good, and
that's, that's constructive. Andthat's what those skills and
talents are. And then and thenleveraging that to help them you
know, meet the challenges andface things that are not as easy
(05:38):
for them so that you give themthat if you start from a, again,
from a weakness base or aproblem based focus, you're
really given the wrong message,we want kids to be encouraged
the best teachers I know, areally close friend is a is a
third grade, just to retirethird grade teacher and she, she
(05:59):
spent so much time in her class,on the comments with those kids
that were struggling, becauseshe saw that she didn't want to
get the message that you can'tdo it. And so she spent an
inordinate amount of time just,you know, finding what's finding
their, their, their towns, whatthey're good at what they're
(06:20):
what they're accomplishing thatto give them momentum, because
it's that momentum, it givesthem the the courage, the
strength and the capability tomove forward. Unless rather than
saying, Here are all the thingsyou are not doing well, that's
just, I don't like thatfeedback. I get I get it
sometimes. But you know, I don'tknow if that's all I'm getting,
(06:42):
you know, it's not helpful,
Eric Price (06:43):
Rufus, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hunt up that tree, a
little bit about that teacherand talking to those kids in a
in a human perspective. But I'mreally I'm really curious about
your perspective, both both youand I have been swimming in the
educational pool for themajority of our careers. looking
(07:03):
from the outside, when you takea look at some of these high
stakes, maybe singular itemassessments that we're looking
at, when you take a look atmaybe looking at that human part
of education. Why do you thinkthat that is so important, as
government gets involved witheducation, and you see
(07:23):
government get involved withother pieces? Why is that
humanization such a big part?
Rufus Woods (07:29):
I think, if we look at things as a, as a mechanical
system of input, teaching, leastoutput, you know, growth, it's,
it's, you know, it's that's notthat's not the journey of a
student, and that I'm aware of,it's it's a more complicated,
circuitous journey along theeducational system. And so if we
(07:52):
rely only upon test scores, andin popular culture that make the
legislature does this, I think,to have parents do this focus
when schools are failing, getyour scores up?
Eric Price (08:06):
And do you think it might be that's an easy thing
for them to grab on to get ahandle on?
Rufus Woods (08:09):
I think, I think it's because it is, is, if you
can measure it, and and so it'seasy and is, and you can, and
you could do it across, youknow, all districts, so it
creates a momentum, it createsits own weather system, if you
were a mountain, it creates itsown weather system. So that the
be all and end all is that and,and, and so so we we've we've
(08:34):
gotten so pattern into thinkingthat that's what's important,
we're missing what are we tryingto create here with? Why are we
doing education in the firstplace? If we're looking at just
a test score, or a series oftest scores, that's, that's that
isn't it? And we're missing?
What makes the human beings inthe system, both teachers and,
and, and ParaPRO. Parents, aswell as, as well as students,
(08:59):
you know, we're leaving thehuman factor out of it. And we
have to, I like to think of a wehumanizing education and in this
society,
Eric Price (09:11):
and you realize, I'm just going to follow up with one
other question, if, from again,from somebody outside of our
pool, if you're going to say,hey, here's the point of
education, what would you say,as a citizen,
Rufus Woods (09:24):
I want to, for education, I want kids to come
out of the system, with withconfidence, I want to, I want
them to be aware of theirstrengths and their and the
things that they don't do well,but there be I want them to be
in a strengths based position. Iwant them to be kind and
compassionate towards thosearound them to learn to work
(09:45):
together. To to come out ashuman beings who can evolve,
adapt, not just to answer testscores, but that's I want them
to be the whole the wholestudent.
Eric Price (09:57):
Yeah. Hard, hard to assess those pieces right.
Rufus Woods (10:00):
And that difficulty obsessing is with why we haven't
done it. The Outlier study doespoint us in the right direction.
It's more complex than just onenumber. But yeah, and we have to
train ourselves not to just takethe number and go, Oh, that's,
that's quality. It's not
Erich Bolz (10:18):
what you really stole a little bit of my thunder
there, because I was reallythinking, how do we how do we
tie what that more perfectassessment system might look
like to those 11 commonconditions and 12
characteristics inside of theoutlier study? And, and I think
really redesigning it with theend in mind, like you said, you
know, we want confident, kind,compassionate kids who learn to
work together, maybe not asmeasured as the as currently
(10:39):
ought to be, but certainly goesa long way into RE humanizing
education. So as somebody who'sbeen able to have a really
unique kind of view into publiceducation in your role as a
newspaper man, all these years,if you were king for the day,
how would you start that processof re humanizing education? What
might those key steps be?
Rufus Woods (10:59):
Well, I think, I think we've got a great step
with the CEE and the work you'redoing. Because we now know, if
we want to freshen all the kidslearning, we now know what what
it takes to do that the culturebuilding a culture of a school,
and, and elevating leadersrather than managers. Is, is the
(11:21):
is the way you do that. And thenhow do we come together? Whether
it's PLCs? You know, how do wecome together to collectively
meet the needs of all the kidsin our school and meet, treat
them as much as possible in a,you know, in a way they are, you
know, meet them where they areas the basis of Act? So I think
(11:43):
that I think that is, and sothat that nuance of, of all kids
are different kids, your kids,they're all there, they all have
skills, they all have talents,they're all valuable. So how do
we make sure that we're not justgoing to one one level, and
that's what our system has done?
So so what we need to do is, isto open that question up and
(12:06):
say, well, and find the thingswe can measure that that will
lead us to, to a more whole viewof that child and that child's
journey, and the system isturning eight so that we can
look at where that success is,and we have a better view than
just one number or or a fewnumbers.
Eric Price (12:26):
Smokes Rufus, you should be a spokesman for the
outlier study. And we would alsolike you to talk to our
legislature if that's at allpossible. I mean, amazing things
that you're articulating here.
And we've got lots more to talkabout with today's guest, Rufus
woods. Stick around, we'll beright back with more outliers in
education.
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Welcome back, everyone.
Eric Price (13:52):
Today we're talking with lifelong newspaperman and
publisher emeritus of theWenatchee world, Rufus woods.
I'm going to shift gears alittle bit Rufus and move into
your experience with the NorthCentral Education Foundation in
their granting process. I knowyou've been involved in some of
that, what makes that thatprocess different than other
processes you might have beeninvolved with?
Rufus Woods (14:13):
It's a beautiful little program. It is part of
the North Central educationalservice district. The foundation
is their philanthropic arm, andwe raise about 30 $40,000 a year
to give out in $300 grants forteachers and we we asked them
to, to write a one page reallysimple. A one page application
(14:37):
that says it talks about handson learning and what they want
to do, whether it's in music andarts, whether it's in financial
education, whether it's inliteracy, STEM and STEAM, all
these categories and so and thenwe award those grants each year
and what's what's extraordinaryabout that process is we try to
(14:59):
Keep the schools where theschools are out of it. So we
give the money directly to theto the teachers. And I'll tell
you why when we get together,well, pretty COVID, when we
would get together, and, andthose those parents, those
teachers would come in, andhere's your project, Here's your
check, here's a $300 check. Andtell us how you did. At the end
(15:20):
of that, I'll tell you what youthink those those teachers who
had won the lottery, gotten theNobel Peace Prize, the energy of
the room, you know, and that'sthe thing, you know, the thing
that we've, we've done toteachers in the system
currently, you know, nottrusting them to do what they're
doing, but to sort of assumethat they're going to make the
(15:40):
wrong decision. And so we haveto have some way of telling them
what they're doing wrong. Imean, it's just not helpful.
What I've learned is you givetrust, you just assume that
they're going to do a great job.
And then you, you just try tostay the heck out of the way,
and let them, let them create.
And every year, we get thesedozens upon dozens of these,
(16:03):
over, here's what within theclassroom with this music and
arts grant. And, you know, wedid these things, and in
pictures of the kids, and youcould just see that the energy,
the passion, it's just, it justwas a exciting thing for these
teachers and something theythey, they love. And we and
teachers got into this becausethey love to teach, and they
(16:25):
care about kids. And so what arewe doing that to help them and
this simple little program $300grant may seem like a little
thing, but it just says volumesabout how we how we value them
as human beings.
Erich Bolz (16:41):
So first, I want to come back to something you said
a little bit earlier, you talkedabout at the leadership level,
making sure that we promoteleaders versus managers. What
would what would that look like?
What what what what do you seeas the characteristics of a
solid educational leader,
Rufus Woods (16:57):
I think educational leader has to lead with the
first bit from a perspective oftrust, which you guys talk a lot
about trust, you've got tocreate a team around you, a
collaborative team, we're all init for all the kids, and then
how can we work together to makethat thing that happen? And, and
(17:18):
to be able to, to resist the youknow, the influence, it's a
common that say, teach it to thetest, you know, get scores up,
teach faster. I mean, I've heardthis from educators, I know you
gotta teach faster, we got toget those scores. That's the, if
you don't have trust with youdon't connect with those kids,
(17:40):
if they don't feel safe, youknow, for the some of these high
poverty, high diversity areas,it ain't going to happen. And so
can we can we least acknowledgethat let's, let's let's play
that strength, and let's notundercut that. And so though, I
think that's criticallyimportant,
Eric Price (17:59):
kind of kind of moving at the speed of trust,
Rufus?
Rufus Woods (18:02):
Amen. I think everything moves there. And so
leaders are going to say, I'mgoing to take the heat from up
above, and then there ratherthan transmitting it, they're
going to, they're going tothey're going to protect their
staff, and they're going towhat's the right thing for our
kids? Right, and defend that tothe death? And, and sometimes,
(18:23):
you know, and, and, and noteverything can be assessed in a
measurement. And so where arethose kids? And are we what
other indicators? Or what otherqualitative things? Are we
seeing those kids? Where are weseeing those successes? And and
it's like in my friend, theteacher, who's that, that Karen,
(18:44):
with with those comments, whereyou really want to build the kid
up, not not sugarcoat it, butbuild up their strengths. And
give them some positiveencouragement, because we need
them to keep working. And weneed them to keep striving and
just keep striving and we needto be there with them every step
of
Eric Price (19:02):
the way. Rufus media sometimes is not our friend, as
educational leaders, like we getsome black guys and beat around
a bit. So in your own experiencein media, a how can we use that
to be a more friendly thing forus in education, and then maybe
reflect on some of your ownthinking and processing in media
(19:25):
and why you think abouteducation so much in your use of
media?
Rufus Woods (19:28):
Yeah, I think we have the same issue immediately.
You do an education problemmentality. You know, the plane
lands at pink born an airport inEast Wenatchee. It's not news,
if it crashes, it is. Right. Soso it's not a helpful attitude,
I think local media andaccepting the national folks but
(19:49):
the local media, you know,people do care, they do love and
they do want to help theircommunities I've been I just
have not been in manyorganizations where that will
wasn't biting, you know, passionfor how do we help our
communities? And so I think wecan do a better job in the media
of, of highlighting what isworking again. And I mean, the
(20:11):
work that your your your SIR aresaying, you know, interviews
with, with Tamra up atBridgeport and so many other
schools of how they're achievingso much we need to highlight
those intermediates and talkabout what are those things that
are helpful? If we're justtalking about what doesn't work,
(20:31):
it's not helpful at all, and,and shame on us, we need to be
stepping up and leading a senseof what what's possible for our
kids? And how can we help ratherthan sit back and take, you
know, and criticize when thetest scores come out? Or, or
find something wrong, as youknow, things happen. Right. And
(20:53):
that's, that's life, but, but wehave to support the system, we
have to support the teachers andthe administrators, and we have
to encourage them to do theright thing. You know, and I
think, I think the the seestudy, the outlier study is a
leverage point that we can useto have a deeper conversation
communities, and we have tostart not expecting Olympia to
(21:16):
solve it. I don't think theywill. They haven't yet
Eric Price (21:18):
why it's gonna come on.
Rufus Woods (21:24):
It's not going to happen there. It's not going to
happen from from fifth tonational, in our local
communities, how do we activateour local communities to build
upon to have a real goodunderstanding about what's
happening? And how do we how dowe leverage local assets to meet
those kids where they are, andit can't be just the schools
doing that, it's got to be thecommunity and, and that's the,
(21:47):
to me, that's the next wave ofthis, if we're gonna make a
difference, we're gonna have todo it together,
Eric Price (21:53):
almost that loop of appreciative inquiry, that we're
both looking in focusing onstrengths, maybe
Rufus Woods (21:58):
strengths based and what's possible. Okay, here's we
are, rather than let's findsomeone to blame newspapers, and
immediately do that well. Butinstead of that, let's go. Okay,
so what what are we going to dowith this? And how do we move
forward? And, and the outlierstudy is that is the key to how
you can take in organizations inour schools in difficult
(22:22):
situations and making massiveprogress. And, and so it can't
be that it will be donedifferently in every school,
whether you're rural, urban,whatever, it'll be done
differently. And that's fine.
And that flexibility that thatgetting out of the one size fits
all but but the ethos of how dowe how do we reach all the kids
and and how do we elevateteachers, rather than
(22:45):
micromanage them and how we kindof build that collaboration so
that we're working together as ateam, we're bringing the
community to get in on it, andwe're making things happen. And
we're and we're just notsuccumbing to, you know, that
Well, nothing's, you know, thesystem is bad, we were the
system, we need to we need to
Erich Bolz (23:06):
work with it. And related to it, I was kind of
thinking of this from theopposite angle. So I think he
did a really nice job ofoutlining media and kind of the,
you know, the the problem withchasing problems and what media
can do better, but you've had tohave some epiphanies and over
your time to around, you know,what are we missing as
educational leaders in terms ofhow we could better relate or
(23:26):
connect with the media, like,you must have these thoughts of,
oh, boy, these guys and galsjust don't see the forest for
the trees? What could what couldwe do better? On our side of
that partnership?
Rufus Woods (23:34):
I think I think building relationships is is
with with your local, localmedia is important. And, you
know, here's what we're tryingto accomplish. And I think, I
think all for a lot of years hasalways seemed like, you know,
public, you know, kind of youstand back we haven't That's
right. So there's a reengagementthat needs to happen
(23:56):
conversation around, what canwhat can we do together? And how
can we how can we really meetthe needs of all of our kids? So
I think that's, that's reallyessential. I think reaching out
building relationships andhighlighting the kinds of
successes that are out there andthey're everywhere, telling
stories of success, is the mostimportant thing is what I came
(24:18):
back from my trading andappreciative inquiry is like, I
need to change the way I dobusiness I can, I want I want to
be a positive force for change.
I want us to be here for thecommunity to succeed. That's,
that's, I don't care. Sometimesthat means, you know, yelling
and screaming, but most of thetime, it's about this is
awesome. Look at what thesepeople are doing. And you find
(24:39):
that in every classroom, youfind that in every school,
you've got amazing people doingdoing incredible things, and
they they're making a differenceand we need to celebrate that.
And and you do that by surfacingthose stories and creating
opportunities for media outletsto Tell that story, right? Well,
(24:59):
here's how you might beinterested in that story. Here's
a teacher, here's what they'vedone. And here's some of the
results. And I don't thinkthat's pandering. I think
that's, that's just, you know,setting a positive tone or
meeting with your localnewspaper publisher or, you
know, weekly publisher, or radiostation and just let's, let's
(25:20):
just have an ongoingconversation about what we're
doing and as highlights andthings that show what we are
doing and what our what our kidsare doing. Because otherwise
things gravitate towards whatwent wrong at a football game or
at a at a school situation. Andit's not, it's not helpful, we
need to we need to tell a morebalanced story all the way
(25:41):
around.
Eric Price (25:42):
Ruth, as you you, you insinuated something about
training, what what is thetraining in appreciative
inquiry?
Rufus Woods (25:48):
Yes, this was developed at Carnegie Mellon
University and a whole mindsetaround about what is possible,
what can we do where we are,with what we've got, basically,
and it's a it's a mentaldiscipline of, of not seeing, if
you're, something's a problem,we have developmentally disabled
(26:09):
or intellectually challengedkids. But what's the opportunity
here? And, and, and in everysituation, we can take it as,
oh, no, one more problem. Or wecan say, Okay, what, how can we
think about this differently?
What possibilities is thiscreate, and and whether in
business, in your personal life,it's a resilience strategy, and
(26:30):
it's about it's about not takingthe low road of, oh, boy, here's
another bad thing that happened.
And we have to help ourstudents, we have to help our
teachers, we have to help ouradministrators, we have to help
our community see things interms of what what can we do,
(26:51):
because things are going tochange? And there are going to
be some difficult challenges,but we have to take those and go
okay, now what what can we do?
And and so that pot that thatmentality is the discipline more
than anything else. And that'sone things that you guys are
building through the outlierstudy in your outreach. You're
seeing this play out in school,if we're not taking the fact
(27:12):
that we've got a high poverty,high diversity class or school,
and we're just going to give upwe're going to take that as
okay. Okay, so what can we dowith this? Let's see what we
could do. And that that's whatwe need.
Eric Price (27:27):
Ruth is talking about building on strengths. Our
co host ballsy is fantastic atthe wrap up, and this is that
time of the show. ballsy. Whatdo you got for us?
Erich Bolz (27:37):
Well, I appreciate the crash course on the
discipline of appreciativeinquiry. I think that was a
great theme to weave all the waythrough and love the connection
into one's personal life. Inaddition to how you know that
approach might impact synergyacross institutions, for sure.
Love just the idea of startingwith what's working is that
(27:58):
essential question? All of usare in huge agreement that high
stakes testing can't be thatsingular proxy measure for
educational success. What whatmakes a good citizen is far more
complex than than the ability tonarrowly demonstrate reading
comprehension or being able todo math for sure. I felt like
Rufus must have listened to ahandful of our podcasts because
(28:19):
I do like connection to a wholebunch of them. Yeah. And when I
think about data, we're reallylooking at demographic data,
perceptual data, ultimately,then tweaking our schools
context, to minister to theneeds of folks inside of the
schoolhouse. That's what leadsto achievement and that really
resonates across episode 10 withChuck saline and Suzanne Gertz
(28:40):
for sure. And what we want is wewant confident, kind,
compassionate kids who who canlearn how to work together
sounds an awful lot like 21stcentury skills and what we all
agree we want as employers aswell, yeah, love the shout out
to see periodically weabsolutely can measure building
culture in a school. And Rufusreally hit on teachers working
(29:01):
together, trust is the bedrockand two of the podcasts. I think
that really illuminate thosecontexts are Episode Five, an
oldie but a goodie. We haven'treally stem for a while and
collective teacher efficacy withHeather Fowler. And then of
course, Janelle Keatingsmasterclass on how to
operationalize PLCs and episodes14 Trust being that absolute
(29:23):
imperative and that we have togift trust. Rufus said give
trust I changed it to give trustbecause it is a gift and do
everything that we can to fosterteachers love of teaching that
we've we've really, we've reallylost track that teaching is
primarily an art first and ascience. Second, I think leading
with trust and having leaderswho lead with trust. Craig
(29:44):
Randall had an awful lot to sayabout that in Episode 17, which
is a must listen to foreducational leaders who are
currently hamstrung by our T petprocesses in Washington state
and our wider supervisionprocesses across the country
that much like high stakestests. Sooner trying to put
folks in a box that theyshouldn't even be asked to fit
into my opinion, love the ideathat media can absolutely
(30:07):
highlight what's working andwhat can make a difference.
Rufus hit on something that Ibelieve for a long time that
change comes at the grassrootslevel. In the United States,
we're a little bit conditionedto want to genuflect to the
Savior process. We're justwaiting for the next Jesus or
Abraham Lincoln to solve all ofour problems. And the reality
is, it's kind of for old guyslike us that at the grassroots
(30:28):
level can make a hugedifference. And I will have
believed for a long time, if Iif I had the energy or desire to
get a doctorate, I would want tostudy how elementary schools and
that and the elementaryneighborhood that they serve is
probably the last frontier interms of meaningful unit of
change in in the United States.
And I think Rufus really got atthat as well was just great to
talk to a kindred spirit, whosees, you know, life through the
(30:50):
lens of trying to be a positiveforce for change. We're trying
to do that exact same thing. Andthen finally giving a shout out
to our friend Darren peppered inEpisode 20, who talks about
changing the world oneconversation at a time, we hope
that we played some small rolein doing that today. And Rufus,
we so appreciate your insight,one of my favorite quotes I'm
(31:11):
playing around with recently asyou can't read the label from
the inside of a jar. So it'spretty nice to have people from
outside of the jar of educationCome on, and really validate
some of this practice.
Eric Price (31:22):
I think that we're gonna we're gonna give you an
honorary doctorate, insummarization, at least ballsy.
So nice job, Rufus. From yourperspective, did we hit those
things? Do we miss anything?
Anything you want to add there?
Rufus Woods (31:35):
I think so. I mean, the relational piece of this is
just absolutely essential. And,and the data is important. It's
data is important, but we haveto be very careful with it.
There's so much potential there.
And we need teachers that arefeeling motivated and encouraged
and evolving. So I'm, I'mexcited about what can be done
(31:57):
now. I'm excited about what isbeing started here and and to
follow along, Rufus,
Eric Price (32:05):
you hit on so many of the major points and kind of
bedrock research that we havelooked at. So thank you for
being on the show. It wasamazing to hear all those things
kind of all together in onechunk. Well, I
Erich Bolz (32:21):
thank you for listening to another episode of
outliers in education. You canlisten to this podcast wherever
you get your podcastor@effectiveness.org.
AD VO (32:34):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive change inyour school or district. Take a
moment to visit C E. The Centerfor Educational
effectiveness@effectiveness.orgBetter data, better decisions,
better schools effectiveness.org
outliers in education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness: Better data,
Better decisions, Betterschools. To find out more visit
effectiveness.org.
Eric Price (00:12):
We are lucky to hear from amazing educators all the
time on this podcast. But whatabout all those thoughtful non
educators out there withsomething important that as they
say, you can't read the label ifyou're inside the jar, and today
we explore the view from theoutside, get ready for another
episode of outliers ineducation.
AD VO (00:32):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we do
in schools, everything that wedo as educators, it just comes
back to people
Unknown (00:40):
I love it even when it's hard, especially when it's
hard. Ultimately, I mean, thisis about what's best for kids.
Eric Price (00:47):
Hey, everybody, this is Eric price here with my good
friend and co host Eric Bowles,ready to go with another episode
of outliers in education. Andtypically on this podcast,
you'll hear us enjoyingconversation with top
educational leaders from aroundthe country, superintendents,
principals, etc. But you don'thave to be an educator to have
valuable insights into how wecan make our educational system
(01:07):
better. It's a matter of fact,we probably haven't done so for
well over a century. So todaycoming straight out of your
hometown of Wenatchee,Washington bosey We have Rufus
woods, publisher emeritus of theWenatchee world and an
accomplished journalist who iswritten frequently and
passionately about what'shappening in the world of
education. Rufus, welcome to theshow.
Rufus Woods (01:28):
Great to be here.
I'm a big fan of the work youguys are doing big fan of this
podcast and, and just excited tobe here and talking about about
how we make education availableto all kids and and do it in a
way that meets their needs andmeets them where they are. And
and so I'm happy to be here.
Erich Bolz (01:46):
We're certainly glad to have you and really got Well,
thinking it'd be great to haveyou on as a guest harkening back
to a couple years ago, we talkeda little bit about the outlier
study. I know you talked withJean Sherratt, one of the
primary authors as well. And itpiqued your interest enough to
write an op ed, what caused youto write that op ed in 2021?
Rufus Woods (02:05):
Great question, Eric. I really believe that,
that, you know, we need to dothings differently in DeJay, in
education, to to meet the needsfor all kids. And and and so I
saw this outlier study andwhat's working as is absolutely
essential. And and that reallygoes to the kind of the spirit
(02:28):
of appreciative inquiry, it goesto what what do we build, we're
building on strengths, ratherthan just identifying
weaknesses, what's wrong. And Ithink creating positive
constructive journey forward is,is absolutely essential in
education. It's also essentialin every other aspect of any
(02:50):
other organization as well.
Eric Price (02:52):
So, Rufus, when you talk about Appreciative Inquiry,
I hear you talk about startingfrom those strengths. Why do you
think that's such an importantpiece? When we take a look at
education?
Rufus Woods (03:03):
Well, if we focus just on the problems, you know,
it, it limits our perspective ofwhat's possible. And so but if
we look at what are we good atwhat is, you know, in terms of a
child, what does a child goodat? What do they care about?
What, what lights their fire? Ifwe're reaching them in that
(03:26):
personal space? And this is alsotrue for educators? If we're
not, if we're going at what areyou good at? And how can we
build upon that? And yes, wehave all we all have weaknesses,
we all have things we have towork on. But But if our core
focus is on what is what worksfor you, what what is helpful,
(03:48):
what builds upon your strengths,you know, that that really is
putting you in a position of, ofcreating, rather than trying to
offset things. If we're onlytalking about the things that
I'm not good at, then then, thenthat's going to send me a
message that that I'm not goodenough. And we just can't be
giving kids we can't be givingeducators, administrators that
(04:12):
message
Erich Bolz (04:12):
Well, segwaying into what we're not good at. We've
got a 20 plus year track recordin, in public education across
the country of conforming tohigh stakes testing. And that
has really become in in manyrespects, kind of our singular
focus for school improvement.
What are we missing with that?
With that approach, Rufus? Andwhat what have we lost?
Rufus Woods (04:34):
I think it's, it's terribly inappropriate to take
one measurement and say, this isthis is a proxy for for the
quality of education. And, andinstead of that we need to be
looking at at where are the kidsand where can we help them grow?
(04:57):
How can we create a positivecontext? Round which they can
see themselves in their journeyas a lead person in that
journey, and then take itforward, that speaks to teaching
and, and as an hour, as an artof, of meeting that kid where he
(05:18):
is, where he or she is, andthen, and then helping them, you
know, see what's see whatthey've got this good, and
that's, that's constructive. Andthat's what those skills and
talents are. And then and thenleveraging that to help them you
know, meet the challenges andface things that are not as easy
(05:38):
for them so that you give themthat if you start from a, again,
from a weakness base or aproblem based focus, you're
really given the wrong message,we want kids to be encouraged
the best teachers I know, areally close friend is a is a
third grade, just to retirethird grade teacher and she, she
(05:59):
spent so much time in her class,on the comments with those kids
that were struggling, becauseshe saw that she didn't want to
get the message that you can'tdo it. And so she spent an
inordinate amount of time just,you know, finding what's finding
their, their, their towns, whatthey're good at what they're
(06:20):
what they're accomplishing thatto give them momentum, because
it's that momentum, it givesthem the the courage, the
strength and the capability tomove forward. Unless rather than
saying, Here are all the thingsyou are not doing well, that's
just, I don't like thatfeedback. I get I get it
sometimes. But you know, I don'tknow if that's all I'm getting,
(06:42):
you know, it's not helpful,
Eric Price (06:43):
Rufus, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hunt up that tree, a
little bit about that teacherand talking to those kids in a
in a human perspective. But I'mreally I'm really curious about
your perspective, both both youand I have been swimming in the
educational pool for themajority of our careers. looking
(07:03):
from the outside, when you takea look at some of these high
stakes, maybe singular itemassessments that we're looking
at, when you take a look atmaybe looking at that human part
of education. Why do you thinkthat that is so important, as
government gets involved witheducation, and you see
(07:23):
government get involved withother pieces? Why is that
humanization such a big part?
Rufus Woods (07:29):
I think, if we look at things as a, as a mechanical
system of input, teaching, leastoutput, you know, growth, it's,
it's, you know, it's that's notthat's not the journey of a
student, and that I'm aware of,it's it's a more complicated,
circuitous journey along theeducational system. And so if we
(07:52):
rely only upon test scores, andin popular culture that make the
legislature does this, I think,to have parents do this focus
when schools are failing, getyour scores up?
Eric Price (08:06):
And do you think it might be that's an easy thing
for them to grab on to get ahandle on?
Rufus Woods (08:09):
I think, I think it's because it is, is, if you
can measure it, and and so it'seasy and is, and you can, and
you could do it across, youknow, all districts, so it
creates a momentum, it createsits own weather system, if you
were a mountain, it creates itsown weather system. So that the
be all and end all is that and,and, and so so we we've we've
(08:34):
gotten so pattern into thinkingthat that's what's important,
we're missing what are we tryingto create here with? Why are we
doing education in the firstplace? If we're looking at just
a test score, or a series oftest scores, that's, that's that
isn't it? And we're missing?
What makes the human beings inthe system, both teachers and,
and, and ParaPRO. Parents, aswell as, as well as students,
(08:59):
you know, we're leaving thehuman factor out of it. And we
have to, I like to think of a wehumanizing education and in this
society,
Eric Price (09:11):
and you realize, I'm just going to follow up with one
other question, if, from again,from somebody outside of our
pool, if you're going to say,hey, here's the point of
education, what would you say,as a citizen,
Rufus Woods (09:24):
I want to, for education, I want kids to come
out of the system, with withconfidence, I want to, I want
them to be aware of theirstrengths and their and the
things that they don't do well,but there be I want them to be
in a strengths based position. Iwant them to be kind and
compassionate towards thosearound them to learn to work
(09:45):
together. To to come out ashuman beings who can evolve,
adapt, not just to answer testscores, but that's I want them
to be the whole the wholestudent.
Eric Price (09:57):
Yeah. Hard, hard to assess those pieces right.
Rufus Woods (10:00):
And that difficulty obsessing is with why we haven't
done it. The Outlier study doespoint us in the right direction.
It's more complex than just onenumber. But yeah, and we have to
train ourselves not to just takethe number and go, Oh, that's,
that's quality. It's not
Erich Bolz (10:18):
what you really stole a little bit of my thunder
there, because I was reallythinking, how do we how do we
tie what that more perfectassessment system might look
like to those 11 commonconditions and 12
characteristics inside of theoutlier study? And, and I think
really redesigning it with theend in mind, like you said, you
know, we want confident, kind,compassionate kids who learn to
work together, maybe not asmeasured as the as currently
(10:39):
ought to be, but certainly goesa long way into RE humanizing
education. So as somebody who'sbeen able to have a really
unique kind of view into publiceducation in your role as a
newspaper man, all these years,if you were king for the day,
how would you start that processof re humanizing education? What
might those key steps be?
Rufus Woods (10:59):
Well, I think, I think we've got a great step
with the CEE and the work you'redoing. Because we now know, if
we want to freshen all the kidslearning, we now know what what
it takes to do that the culturebuilding a culture of a school,
and, and elevating leadersrather than managers. Is, is the
(11:21):
is the way you do that. And thenhow do we come together? Whether
it's PLCs? You know, how do wecome together to collectively
meet the needs of all the kidsin our school and meet, treat
them as much as possible in a,you know, in a way they are, you
know, meet them where they areas the basis of Act? So I think
(11:43):
that I think that is, and sothat that nuance of, of all kids
are different kids, your kids,they're all there, they all have
skills, they all have talents,they're all valuable. So how do
we make sure that we're not justgoing to one one level, and
that's what our system has done?
So so what we need to do is, isto open that question up and
(12:06):
say, well, and find the thingswe can measure that that will
lead us to, to a more whole viewof that child and that child's
journey, and the system isturning eight so that we can
look at where that success is,and we have a better view than
just one number or or a fewnumbers.
Eric Price (12:26):
Smokes Rufus, you should be a spokesman for the
outlier study. And we would alsolike you to talk to our
legislature if that's at allpossible. I mean, amazing things
that you're articulating here.
And we've got lots more to talkabout with today's guest, Rufus
woods. Stick around, we'll beright back with more outliers in
education.
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Welcome back, everyone.
Eric Price (13:52):
Today we're talking with lifelong newspaperman and
publisher emeritus of theWenatchee world, Rufus woods.
I'm going to shift gears alittle bit Rufus and move into
your experience with the NorthCentral Education Foundation in
their granting process. I knowyou've been involved in some of
that, what makes that thatprocess different than other
processes you might have beeninvolved with?
Rufus Woods (14:13):
It's a beautiful little program. It is part of
the North Central educationalservice district. The foundation
is their philanthropic arm, andwe raise about 30 $40,000 a year
to give out in $300 grants forteachers and we we asked them
to, to write a one page reallysimple. A one page application
(14:37):
that says it talks about handson learning and what they want
to do, whether it's in music andarts, whether it's in financial
education, whether it's inliteracy, STEM and STEAM, all
these categories and so and thenwe award those grants each year
and what's what's extraordinaryabout that process is we try to
(14:59):
Keep the schools where theschools are out of it. So we
give the money directly to theto the teachers. And I'll tell
you why when we get together,well, pretty COVID, when we
would get together, and, andthose those parents, those
teachers would come in, andhere's your project, Here's your
check, here's a $300 check. Andtell us how you did. At the end
(15:20):
of that, I'll tell you what youthink those those teachers who
had won the lottery, gotten theNobel Peace Prize, the energy of
the room, you know, and that'sthe thing, you know, the thing
that we've, we've done toteachers in the system
currently, you know, nottrusting them to do what they're
doing, but to sort of assumethat they're going to make the
(15:40):
wrong decision. And so we haveto have some way of telling them
what they're doing wrong. Imean, it's just not helpful.
What I've learned is you givetrust, you just assume that
they're going to do a great job.
And then you, you just try tostay the heck out of the way,
and let them, let them create.
And every year, we get thesedozens upon dozens of these,
(16:03):
over, here's what within theclassroom with this music and
arts grant. And, you know, wedid these things, and in
pictures of the kids, and youcould just see that the energy,
the passion, it's just, it justwas a exciting thing for these
teachers and something theythey, they love. And we and
teachers got into this becausethey love to teach, and they
(16:25):
care about kids. And so what arewe doing that to help them and
this simple little program $300grant may seem like a little
thing, but it just says volumesabout how we how we value them
as human beings.
Erich Bolz (16:41):
So first, I want to come back to something you said
a little bit earlier, you talkedabout at the leadership level,
making sure that we promoteleaders versus managers. What
would what would that look like?
What what what what do you seeas the characteristics of a
solid educational leader,
Rufus Woods (16:57):
I think educational leader has to lead with the
first bit from a perspective oftrust, which you guys talk a lot
about trust, you've got tocreate a team around you, a
collaborative team, we're all init for all the kids, and then
how can we work together to makethat thing that happen? And, and
(17:18):
to be able to, to resist the youknow, the influence, it's a
common that say, teach it to thetest, you know, get scores up,
teach faster. I mean, I've heardthis from educators, I know you
gotta teach faster, we got toget those scores. That's the, if
you don't have trust with youdon't connect with those kids,
(17:40):
if they don't feel safe, youknow, for the some of these high
poverty, high diversity areas,it ain't going to happen. And so
can we can we least acknowledgethat let's, let's let's play
that strength, and let's notundercut that. And so though, I
think that's criticallyimportant,
Eric Price (17:59):
kind of kind of moving at the speed of trust,
Rufus?
Rufus Woods (18:02):
Amen. I think everything moves there. And so
leaders are going to say, I'mgoing to take the heat from up
above, and then there ratherthan transmitting it, they're
going to, they're going tothey're going to protect their
staff, and they're going towhat's the right thing for our
kids? Right, and defend that tothe death? And, and sometimes,
(18:23):
you know, and, and, and noteverything can be assessed in a
measurement. And so where arethose kids? And are we what
other indicators? Or what otherqualitative things? Are we
seeing those kids? Where are weseeing those successes? And and
it's like in my friend, theteacher, who's that, that Karen,
(18:44):
with with those comments, whereyou really want to build the kid
up, not not sugarcoat it, butbuild up their strengths. And
give them some positiveencouragement, because we need
them to keep working. And weneed them to keep striving and
just keep striving and we needto be there with them every step
of
Eric Price (19:02):
the way. Rufus media sometimes is not our friend, as
educational leaders, like we getsome black guys and beat around
a bit. So in your own experiencein media, a how can we use that
to be a more friendly thing forus in education, and then maybe
reflect on some of your ownthinking and processing in media
(19:25):
and why you think abouteducation so much in your use of
media?
Rufus Woods (19:28):
Yeah, I think we have the same issue immediately.
You do an education problemmentality. You know, the plane
lands at pink born an airport inEast Wenatchee. It's not news,
if it crashes, it is. Right. Soso it's not a helpful attitude,
I think local media andaccepting the national folks but
(19:49):
the local media, you know,people do care, they do love and
they do want to help theircommunities I've been I just
have not been in manyorganizations where that will
wasn't biting, you know, passionfor how do we help our
communities? And so I think wecan do a better job in the media
of, of highlighting what isworking again. And I mean, the
(20:11):
work that your your your SIR aresaying, you know, interviews
with, with Tamra up atBridgeport and so many other
schools of how they're achievingso much we need to highlight
those intermediates and talkabout what are those things that
are helpful? If we're justtalking about what doesn't work,
(20:31):
it's not helpful at all, and,and shame on us, we need to be
stepping up and leading a senseof what what's possible for our
kids? And how can we help ratherthan sit back and take, you
know, and criticize when thetest scores come out? Or, or
find something wrong, as youknow, things happen. Right. And
(20:53):
that's, that's life, but, but wehave to support the system, we
have to support the teachers andthe administrators, and we have
to encourage them to do theright thing. You know, and I
think, I think the the seestudy, the outlier study is a
leverage point that we can useto have a deeper conversation
communities, and we have tostart not expecting Olympia to
(21:16):
solve it. I don't think theywill. They haven't yet
Eric Price (21:18):
why it's gonna come on.
Rufus Woods (21:24):
It's not going to happen there. It's not going to
happen from from fifth tonational, in our local
communities, how do we activateour local communities to build
upon to have a real goodunderstanding about what's
happening? And how do we how dowe leverage local assets to meet
those kids where they are, andit can't be just the schools
doing that, it's got to be thecommunity and, and that's the,
(21:47):
to me, that's the next wave ofthis, if we're gonna make a
difference, we're gonna have todo it together,
Eric Price (21:53):
almost that loop of appreciative inquiry, that we're
both looking in focusing onstrengths, maybe
Rufus Woods (21:58):
strengths based and what's possible. Okay, here's we
are, rather than let's findsomeone to blame newspapers, and
immediately do that well. Butinstead of that, let's go. Okay,
so what what are we going to dowith this? And how do we move
forward? And, and the outlierstudy is that is the key to how
you can take in organizations inour schools in difficult
(22:22):
situations and making massiveprogress. And, and so it can't
be that it will be donedifferently in every school,
whether you're rural, urban,whatever, it'll be done
differently. And that's fine.
And that flexibility that thatgetting out of the one size fits
all but but the ethos of how dowe how do we reach all the kids
and and how do we elevateteachers, rather than
(22:45):
micromanage them and how we kindof build that collaboration so
that we're working together as ateam, we're bringing the
community to get in on it, andwe're making things happen. And
we're and we're just notsuccumbing to, you know, that
Well, nothing's, you know, thesystem is bad, we were the
system, we need to we need to
Erich Bolz (23:06):
work with it. And related to it, I was kind of
thinking of this from theopposite angle. So I think he
did a really nice job ofoutlining media and kind of the,
you know, the the problem withchasing problems and what media
can do better, but you've had tohave some epiphanies and over
your time to around, you know,what are we missing as
educational leaders in terms ofhow we could better relate or
(23:26):
connect with the media, like,you must have these thoughts of,
oh, boy, these guys and galsjust don't see the forest for
the trees? What could what couldwe do better? On our side of
that partnership?
Rufus Woods (23:34):
I think I think building relationships is is
with with your local, localmedia is important. And, you
know, here's what we're tryingto accomplish. And I think, I
think all for a lot of years hasalways seemed like, you know,
public, you know, kind of youstand back we haven't That's
right. So there's a reengagementthat needs to happen
(23:56):
conversation around, what canwhat can we do together? And how
can we how can we really meetthe needs of all of our kids? So
I think that's, that's reallyessential. I think reaching out
building relationships andhighlighting the kinds of
successes that are out there andthey're everywhere, telling
stories of success, is the mostimportant thing is what I came
(24:18):
back from my trading andappreciative inquiry is like, I
need to change the way I dobusiness I can, I want I want to
be a positive force for change.
I want us to be here for thecommunity to succeed. That's,
that's, I don't care. Sometimesthat means, you know, yelling
and screaming, but most of thetime, it's about this is
awesome. Look at what thesepeople are doing. And you find
(24:39):
that in every classroom, youfind that in every school,
you've got amazing people doingdoing incredible things, and
they they're making a differenceand we need to celebrate that.
And and you do that by surfacingthose stories and creating
opportunities for media outletsto Tell that story, right? Well,
(24:59):
here's how you might beinterested in that story. Here's
a teacher, here's what they'vedone. And here's some of the
results. And I don't thinkthat's pandering. I think
that's, that's just, you know,setting a positive tone or
meeting with your localnewspaper publisher or, you
know, weekly publisher, or radiostation and just let's, let's
(25:20):
just have an ongoingconversation about what we're
doing and as highlights andthings that show what we are
doing and what our what our kidsare doing. Because otherwise
things gravitate towards whatwent wrong at a football game or
at a at a school situation. Andit's not, it's not helpful, we
need to we need to tell a morebalanced story all the way
(25:41):
around.
Eric Price (25:42):
Ruth, as you you, you insinuated something about
training, what what is thetraining in appreciative
inquiry?
Rufus Woods (25:48):
Yes, this was developed at Carnegie Mellon
University and a whole mindsetaround about what is possible,
what can we do where we are,with what we've got, basically,
and it's a it's a mentaldiscipline of, of not seeing, if
you're, something's a problem,we have developmentally disabled
(26:09):
or intellectually challengedkids. But what's the opportunity
here? And, and, and in everysituation, we can take it as,
oh, no, one more problem. Or wecan say, Okay, what, how can we
think about this differently?
What possibilities is thiscreate, and and whether in
business, in your personal life,it's a resilience strategy, and
(26:30):
it's about it's about not takingthe low road of, oh, boy, here's
another bad thing that happened.
And we have to help ourstudents, we have to help our
teachers, we have to help ouradministrators, we have to help
our community see things interms of what what can we do,
(26:51):
because things are going tochange? And there are going to
be some difficult challenges,but we have to take those and go
okay, now what what can we do?
And and so that pot that thatmentality is the discipline more
than anything else. And that'sone things that you guys are
building through the outlierstudy in your outreach. You're
seeing this play out in school,if we're not taking the fact
(27:12):
that we've got a high poverty,high diversity class or school,
and we're just going to give upwe're going to take that as
okay. Okay, so what can we dowith this? Let's see what we
could do. And that that's whatwe need.
Eric Price (27:27):
Ruth is talking about building on strengths. Our
co host ballsy is fantastic atthe wrap up, and this is that
time of the show. ballsy. Whatdo you got for us?
Erich Bolz (27:37):
Well, I appreciate the crash course on the
discipline of appreciativeinquiry. I think that was a
great theme to weave all the waythrough and love the connection
into one's personal life. Inaddition to how you know that
approach might impact synergyacross institutions, for sure.
Love just the idea of startingwith what's working is that
(27:58):
essential question? All of usare in huge agreement that high
stakes testing can't be thatsingular proxy measure for
educational success. What whatmakes a good citizen is far more
complex than than the ability tonarrowly demonstrate reading
comprehension or being able todo math for sure. I felt like
Rufus must have listened to ahandful of our podcasts because
(28:19):
I do like connection to a wholebunch of them. Yeah. And when I
think about data, we're reallylooking at demographic data,
perceptual data, ultimately,then tweaking our schools
context, to minister to theneeds of folks inside of the
schoolhouse. That's what leadsto achievement and that really
resonates across episode 10 withChuck saline and Suzanne Gertz
(28:40):
for sure. And what we want is wewant confident, kind,
compassionate kids who who canlearn how to work together
sounds an awful lot like 21stcentury skills and what we all
agree we want as employers aswell, yeah, love the shout out
to see periodically weabsolutely can measure building
culture in a school. And Rufusreally hit on teachers working
(29:01):
together, trust is the bedrockand two of the podcasts. I think
that really illuminate thosecontexts are Episode Five, an
oldie but a goodie. We haven'treally stem for a while and
collective teacher efficacy withHeather Fowler. And then of
course, Janelle Keatingsmasterclass on how to
operationalize PLCs and episodes14 Trust being that absolute
(29:23):
imperative and that we have togift trust. Rufus said give
trust I changed it to give trustbecause it is a gift and do
everything that we can to fosterteachers love of teaching that
we've we've really, we've reallylost track that teaching is
primarily an art first and ascience. Second, I think leading
with trust and having leaderswho lead with trust. Craig
(29:44):
Randall had an awful lot to sayabout that in Episode 17, which
is a must listen to foreducational leaders who are
currently hamstrung by our T petprocesses in Washington state
and our wider supervisionprocesses across the country
that much like high stakestests. Sooner trying to put
folks in a box that theyshouldn't even be asked to fit
into my opinion, love the ideathat media can absolutely
(30:07):
highlight what's working andwhat can make a difference.
Rufus hit on something that Ibelieve for a long time that
change comes at the grassrootslevel. In the United States,
we're a little bit conditionedto want to genuflect to the
Savior process. We're justwaiting for the next Jesus or
Abraham Lincoln to solve all ofour problems. And the reality
is, it's kind of for old guyslike us that at the grassroots
(30:28):
level can make a hugedifference. And I will have
believed for a long time, if Iif I had the energy or desire to
get a doctorate, I would want tostudy how elementary schools and
that and the elementaryneighborhood that they serve is
probably the last frontier interms of meaningful unit of
change in in the United States.
And I think Rufus really got atthat as well was just great to
talk to a kindred spirit, whosees, you know, life through the
(30:50):
lens of trying to be a positiveforce for change. We're trying
to do that exact same thing. Andthen finally giving a shout out
to our friend Darren peppered inEpisode 20, who talks about
changing the world oneconversation at a time, we hope
that we played some small rolein doing that today. And Rufus,
we so appreciate your insight,one of my favorite quotes I'm
(31:11):
playing around with recently asyou can't read the label from
the inside of a jar. So it'spretty nice to have people from
outside of the jar of educationCome on, and really validate
some of this practice.
Eric Price (31:22):
I think that we're gonna we're gonna give you an
honorary doctorate, insummarization, at least ballsy.
So nice job, Rufus. From yourperspective, did we hit those
things? Do we miss anything?
Anything you want to add there?
Rufus Woods (31:35):
I think so. I mean, the relational piece of this is
just absolutely essential. And,and the data is important. It's
data is important, but we haveto be very careful with it.
There's so much potential there.
And we need teachers that arefeeling motivated and encouraged
and evolving. So I'm, I'mexcited about what can be done
(31:57):
now. I'm excited about what isbeing started here and and to
follow along, Rufus,
Eric Price (32:05):
you hit on so many of the major points and kind of
bedrock research that we havelooked at. So thank you for
being on the show. It wasamazing to hear all those things
kind of all together in onechunk. Well, I
Erich Bolz (32:21):
thank you for listening to another episode of
outliers in education. You canlisten to this podcast wherever
you get your podcastor@effectiveness.org.
AD VO (32:34):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive change inyour school or district. Take a
moment to visit C E. The Centerfor Educational
effectiveness@effectiveness.orgBetter data, better decisions,
better schools effectiveness.org
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