February 1, 2024 • 24 mins
Laughter isn't just the best medicine, it may also be a pivotal part of a successful learning experience. In this episode we speak with big-bearded and gregarious Geoff McLachlan, founder of Professionals at Play and explore how the simple joy of play can prove rejuvenating both students and educators alike.
As the unstructured playgrounds of the past have been replaced with the excessively structured learning environments of today, we have lost our ability to play and, with it, much of the resilience once learned out on the playground, as well as many of the nurturing relationships developed there.
Join in as we discover how a sprinkle of humor coupled with a playful spirit can indeed pave the way for a robust, inclusive educational setting where being a good human is as important as being a good student.
"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.
Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ad VO (00:06):
Outliers in Education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
To find out more, visiteffectivenessorg.
Eric Price (00:20):
Everybody needs a hug sometimes, and that's
especially true of our teachersand students these days.
Today, with the help of oneexpert guide, we'll take an
adventure in kindness right hereon Outliers in Education.
Ad VO (00:32):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we
do in schools, everything thatwe do as educators, it just
comes back to people.
I love it, even when it's hard,especially when it's hard.
Ultimately, I mean, this isabout what's best for kids.
Eric Price (00:49):
Welcome back everyone to another episode of
Outliers in Education, where weseek out folks who are not only
striving to make educationbetter in this country, but
actually doing it.
We're giving them for tips andtricks and wisdom.
I'm Eric Price, and with me, asusual, is my hug-able co-host
from the Center for EducationalEffectiveness, eric Bolz.
Bolzie, we're one month intothe new year and how are your
(01:12):
stress levels?
Erich Bolz (01:13):
My stress levels have never been better, EP.
Unfortunately, that might beattributable to the fact that
I'm rarely on the front lines ofpublic education anymore, like
I was for three decades previous, because we know there's some
real stressors out there today.
In many regards, I think thework's never been harder.
There's stressors for students,stressors for teachers.
We have stressors around someof the antidotes, in terms of
(01:36):
how some of us perceive just thephrase social, emotional
learning.
Yet there is, I think, anobvious optimistic cure, and
that is strengtheningrelationships student to student
, student to teacher.
As you know, ep, it all comesdown to the relationships.
Eric Price (01:51):
Yep, just like real estate, right Relationship,
relationship relationship.
As I said at the top of theshow, everybody could use a hug
sometimes, and today's guestactually does that
professionally.
Well, not actually giving hugs,although I'm sure that, Geoff,
you do that as well, but HUG isactually the name of one of a
variety of programs GeoffMcLachlan brings to students and
educators around the country inhis effort to lower stress
(02:13):
levels and help us allrediscover the joys of learning
together.
He's the founder ofProfessionals at Play, a speaker
, trainer and coach, as well asa former teacher.
Geoff, welcome to the show.
Geoff McLachlan (02:26):
Hello everybody , Thank you so much for having
me.
I'm excited to be here.
Eric Price (02:30):
So, Geoff, you started Professionals at Play
back in 2016.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat is and what you're trying
to accomplish.
Geoff McLachlan (02:40):
Well, I started off in education as an early
elementary school teacher allthe way down in kindergarten Wow
.
Now I'm assuming this is apodcast and people can't see me,
but I got a big beard A lot oftimes.
When kids would walk into theschool, like the very first day
of school, I was so excited asthey were.
But of course they would comearound the corner into the
classroom and they'd see thisguy with a big giant beard
(03:02):
standing there and there wereoftentimes screams and sometimes
accidents and parents going.
Well, where's the teacher?
Eric Price (03:10):
Like that's me.
Geoff McLachlan (03:11):
They're like I'm not leaving my kid with you,
where's the teacher?
So but I started off ineducation, really loved it, had
a great time.
And then I got pulled into thespeaking world and working with
students and again absolutelylove it, love working with kids.
But then, as I got a little bitolder, a lot of gray hair
(03:34):
happened, working with a lot ofpeople across the country, and
eventually I said, well, wait aminute, at some point I'm not
going to be as effective withyounger students as like some
young, cool hip guy.
And so I decided well, wait,maybe I'll start working with
the educators, the people thatwork with the students on a
daily basis, because then wehave some things in common and I
(03:56):
thought that would be a reallygood place.
I could amplify the message andthe amount of people that are
going out there and actuallydoing the work.
And so that's when I startedprofessionals at play work with
educators and corporationsacross the United States now,
and it's it's a lot of fun.
Eric Price (04:10):
And when you talk about young, cool and hip,
you're talking about people likebulls, right yeah?
Erich Bolz (04:14):
absolutely, yeah, exactly.
Eric Price (04:16):
I wanted to get that in there 100%.
Erich Bolz (04:18):
So, Jeff, give us an overview of what it looks like
when a group of educators engagewith you.
Geoff McLachlan (04:25):
First of all, there's always play involved.
Obviously, the company isprofessionals at play, and I
truly believe that everything wereally need to learn and to be
successful started on theplayground, right, it started on
when we were little kids.
Now the playground has changeda little bit over the last, you
know, many decades of my life,and specifically in schools.
(04:47):
You look at, like what happened?
We used to have merry-go-rounds, we used to have monkey bars.
We used to have the playgroundwas just a little bit dangerous,
just enough that you learned alot.
You learned I mean, you learnedphysics.
It was an actual physicsexperiment, right?
Well, then they started to get alittle safer and we started to
put cushioning down, but westill have the playground and
you learned all the socialskills that you needed because
(05:09):
it was unstructured playtime,and so when I work with adults
and I work with students, wetake the opportunity to put
ourselves back into theplayground situation and we do
that through facilitating largegroup activities, but a lot of
it is a lot of playbase and thenconversation.
So when people play together,it starts to break down the
walls, they start to become,they go back to that childhood
(05:31):
wonder and creativity andcuriosity, and it doesn't matter
how old you are.
I've had people play that were,you know, in their 70s and
maybe the rate of play goes downa little bit.
But at the same time, thecreativity, the joy, the wonder
and the conversations are justthis childlike is when they were
little kids, and so play isalways on the agenda whenever I
(05:54):
do any kind of training.
Erich Bolz (05:56):
So when you, when you're engaged in training, I'm
envisioning selling this messageto a high school staff.
So how do you get me to uncrossmy arms and engage?
Give us some examples of whatthat looks like.
Geoff McLachlan (06:10):
Okay, so I know it seems a little silly.
When was the last time youpulled somebody's finger?
Eric Price (06:16):
Well, really probably not too long ago, if
you ask Bulls and Mades.
Really that's a bad audience,that's a bad demographic, Jeff.
Geoff McLachlan (06:24):
But here's the thing If there's any guy in the
room, you say pull my finger,and they all giggle, why?
Because at heart we're allteenage boys, right, and that's.
We never really grow out ofthat.
And so if we can plug into thatsense of playfulness, that joy,
I will actually have peoplepull each other's fingers and
they and it's I know I say it,but it's, it's hilarious.
(06:45):
I just did a TEDx in Spokane andI asked the entire audience to
play and when I did this, I meanyou could hear an audible groan
as I asked them to stand up.
But then I got everybody apartner and as soon as I started
them playing, the very firstthing I had them do was put out
a hand, just like this, towardstheir partner.
The other partner makes afinger, like this, and then they
(07:06):
put their pointer finger intheir partner's palm and then I
say, on your marks, get set, go.
And when I say go, you try andpull your finger to safety, you
try and grab the other person'sfinger.
It was almost impossible to getthem back because they were
laughing so hard, Right?
And I mean you never think like.
You think that all of a suddenpulling a stranger's finger
wouldn't create that kind ofreaction, but it does and it's a
(07:29):
.
It's safe yeah.
Eric Price (07:31):
I don't know about all of you, but I'm feeling
better already.
Stay with us and we'll be rightback with more stress-free
insights right here on Outliersin Education.
Erich Bolz (08:25):
Great to have you next time.
Ad VO (08:27):
Thank you out the whole Educator Series online SCL
training available now from CEat effectivenessorg slash
workshops.
That's effectivenessorg slashworkshops.
Eric Price (08:46):
And we're back.
We're in the middle of aplayful chat with Jeff
McLaughlin, founder ofprofessionals at play.
So, jeff, let me ask you thiswhen we talk about some of the
structures that we've put in forkids, and if we look back, I
mean, you know, decades ago,when we were kids on the
playground, where there wasn'tthat structure, we had to make
up all the rules.
What have kids lost as a resultof that, and how do we see that
(09:10):
show up socially?
Geoff McLachlan (09:13):
That's a great question, as the playground has
changed.
It's not a lack of resilience,but the resilience has gone down
a little bit and you'restarting to see I mean,
especially post COVID, you see,like so many more mental health
issues with students you see,everything is like and instead
of having the resiliency of,okay, this was an event, it
(09:34):
happened, I got through it andnow I'm okay, now we're seeing
long-term lingering effects andpeople think that, oh my gosh, I
can't go out in public or Ican't talk to this person
because it's dangerous.
And that lack of resilienceversus when we were younger, we
fell down on the playground, youscraped your knee and there was
no one there to help you.
You kind of brushed yourselfoff and you got back up and you
(09:56):
kept going Because that's that's.
You wanted to keep playing.
And so you, you learned thatresilience through play and
through adversity and we learnedthat, yes, it hurts right now,
it's a moment in time, but it'sgoing to pass and then we're
going to get on to the nextthing, and so that that
resilience piece is really hugeand play helps to create
(10:18):
resilience.
You mentioned like coming upwith your own set of rules.
That's incredibly vital forcreativity for negotiating, for
all the things that we can dothat we would consider now
social, emotional learning.
That was just stuff you did onthe playground, yeah absolutely
yeah, you did not.
Eric Price (10:32):
when we were kids, you did not need to know which
color of face I was.
You know if we were playingfootball and you cheated, right?
I let you know that immediately.
I did not need to point to thered face, right?
Yeah?
Erich Bolz (10:43):
Right, jeff.
What do you notice about adultresilience, about teacher
resilience, during this time?
You've been at this since 2016,.
The world has shiftedseismically since 2016.
What have you noticed in thattime?
Geoff McLachlan (10:55):
Well, the probably the biggest thing is
that through COVID we saweducation change drastically.
So educators, as you weretrained to teach a subject, to
have classroom management, toengage with your students and
obviously to care about them, tocreate those relationships it
became so much harder because itwas through a screen.
If you didn't have thatcamaraderie already in the
(11:17):
classroom, it was much harder todevelop and so it's just
another barrier.
So the screen is a barrierbetween connection, and the
hardest part about education isthe biggest thing that we do is
connect with students.
Everybody knows that a greatteacher, the number one thing
that they do with theirclassroom, is they connect with
their kids and they know that.
Those kids know that theteacher cares and therefore the
(11:40):
kids care, and that's a 90%battle right there.
If you can do that, you're 90%of the way there.
The learning will happen if youhave the relationship.
Eric Price (11:48):
So Jeff, I teach a bunch of up and coming teachers
right, preservice teachers andif you were going to kind of
encapsulate what you just sharedthere about making those
connections, what would you say?
And then, if you gave them somedirections about how to do it,
what would you say there?
Geoff McLachlan (12:03):
The biggest thing is be curious, be curious,
ask questions.
If you allow your students toask why, on five, seven, 10
different levels, just keepasking why, why, why, we'll
eventually get down to it, right, but we teach that out of kids
now, which is unfortunatebecause you know by about the
third, fourth, fifth gradethey're going why and the
(12:24):
teacher goes because I said so.
Stop asking why, right, weliterally teach the curiosity
out of them.
And so, as up and comingeducators, maintain that
curiosity, not just about yoursubject but about your students,
because every single kid isgoing through something.
If you can just keep asking why, eventually you'll get down to
the thing that really matters tothem, about your kiddos.
Eric Price (12:45):
Absolutely About your kiddos.
Just keep asking therelationship because you're
always curious about it.
Geoff McLachlan (12:50):
Wait a minute, tell me more about that.
Well, what about that?
Does this?
Now, when you say that, whatdoes that really mean?
Like when I, when I have a kid,say, oh, that makes me really
happy, I'll say, great, I knowwhat happy means to me.
But what does happy mean to you?
Right, like just a simpledefinition of terms, because
then we're on the same playingfield.
Now we're playing fair becausewe have the same set of rules,
(13:10):
and that's vital for anyorganization, any group, any
classroom to be successful.
We just have a common language,we have a common set of rules.
Everybody plays by the same setof rules, so we can all win.
Eric Price (13:21):
So here's.
Here's one for you, jeff.
What is your best story aboutsomeone that didn't believe in
play and then started to playand then you made a believer
album?
Do you have a story?
Geoff McLachlan (13:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I was at a school in justoutside of Chicago, chicago
Illinois, big middle school,about a thousand kids in this
middle school and I was doing a.
I did a keynote and then I dida day of play with them.
And during the keynote for theentire school, I had all the
kids on one side of the gym andI tell a story about unicorns
(13:52):
and believing in things and kidsare like oh my gosh, and I mean
I'm, it's crazy.
I've had kids come up afteryears after me like you're this
guy, you're the, you're the.
They have no idea who I am, butthey're like you're the, you're
the unicorn guy.
So I'm like, yes, I am, but Iwas.
Erich Bolz (14:06):
I didn't tell the story.
Geoff McLachlan (14:08):
And then I did a little experiment where I'd
put four chairs out, have thekids sit down in the chairs.
They would lean back on the lapof the person behind them, they
would arch their back and thenI'd pull the chairs out.
Right, so you create a physicaltable out of students.
And I went and picked kids.
I said I need somebody tovolunteer, I need four of you,
and I had about 800 kids raisetheir hands and I was like dude,
this is the coolest school ever.
(14:28):
And so I just start pickingkids out.
I'm like you and you and you.
And then I pick a kid out ofthe front row and I'm like you,
come on down.
I didn't pay attention to thekids that I was picking and we
got them there.
I said, okay, do you playsports?
And every kid said yes and Isaid, okay, cool, are you guys
afraid of getting hurt?
And they all said yes and Isaid, okay, I'll take that as a
(14:50):
no.
Are you guys okay with danger?
And they're like yes, no, yes,no, cool, I'll take that as a
yes.
All right, here's what we'regoing to do.
And then I set them up and I dothe experiment and they do it
Well, as they're all going back,one of the kids, when he goes
over and sits down, I noticedthat he was sitting with all the
(15:10):
special needs students.
And I look over and I'm like hisparaprofessionals are just in
tears, they're just sobbing andI was like, okay, cool, and I do
the rest of my keynote.
And they come up to meafterwards and they're crying.
So as soon as they're crying,I'm like what's going on?
How's it going?
The crying unicorn now, exactly, I'm the crying unicorn.
(15:34):
And they said I don't know ifyou know what you just did, but
that kid is autistic and almostcompletely nonverbal.
Wow.
And he just got up in front ofa thousand kids.
Wow.
And he said did he do thisthing?
But he said his name, he talked.
That's more than we've heardhim talk.
(15:55):
No way, wow.
I mean, I was sobbing at thatpoint and we're just all hugging
each other and I'm like, okay,I got to work with the rest of
the kids now, but it wasfascinating because it was all
about support and caring andthese kids, like you had a
thousand kids just going crazyand screaming for these kids,
like you can do it, come on.
Erich Bolz (16:17):
Yeah.
Geoff McLachlan (16:18):
And then the rocket ship blasting off, just
the cacophony of noise, ofsupport, and it was one of the
most.
I wish I would have had that onfilm because that was like in
terms of my speaking career,that was, I think, the loudest
I've ever been in a gym, withkids cheering for each other.
And if we think about thatright, that support, that level
of support, if we had that atall schools, if kids showed up
(16:40):
and people cheered for them, ifeducators showed up and people
cheered for them, I don't thinkwe'd have hardly any problems at
all in schools.
Eric Price (16:47):
It's just like a regular board meeting.
That's what that sounds like tome.
Yeah, just play and cheering,that's right.
Geoff McLachlan (16:54):
I mean at least the ones you guys ran, the ones
that you did, yeah.
Erich Bolz (16:58):
AP and I never had the courage to run board
meetings, jeff.
We just sat there as unwittingparticipants.
So, switching gears slightly.
Sel has become sort of one ofthose polarizing acronyms or
catch phrases right now.
How have you, or how would you,combat the notions that it's
something we shouldn't beworking on?
Geoff McLachlan (17:18):
Oh, it's something we're always working
on.
The hard part is that peoplehave twisted it.
People have associated it withfor lack of a better word like
they think it's a far leftideology.
And it's not an ideology, it'sa simple how do we behave as
human beings?
The hard part is it's not aboutethics, it's just simply about
kindness.
How do we teach each other tobe good to each other?
(17:39):
A lot of people get that mixedup with.
Well, if you believe this, thenyou're this, and they start
pointing fingers and gettingargumentative and judgmental.
In reality, social-emotionallearning is really about how do
we get along, regardless of whatyou look like, sound like,
where you're from, the politicsyou practice or don't practice
Any of that.
The beautiful part is that playincorporates all of those
(17:59):
things, because you don't carewhat somebody looks like or
sounds like If you're playingand having a good time.
It's all about the moment, andit's one of the few times you're
really truly physically presentwith another human being is
when you're playing with them,and so if I think we can make
that little paradigm shift fromthis is a political ideology to
this is a how to be a good human, and it's not judgmental, it's
(18:21):
not political-based, it issimply a.
It's the stuff that we learnedin kindergarten that people are
now getting all in a tizzy aboutbecause they think it's like
you're going to teach our kidsthis Like no, it's just work
hard, play fair and be kind.
Eric Price (18:36):
So, jeff, let me ask you this If I am a type A, get
a done, you know, scope andsequence type person, not that
that's bad but then I would say,hey, I don't have time for play
.
What would be your elevatorpitch to me about no, here's.
Here's why it's important.
Geoff McLachlan (18:53):
I'm going to ask you questions.
I'm actually I'm just going tosimply say hey, how do you feel
about that?
How does your staff feel?
Do you know your staff's hopesand dreams?
Do they know yours?
Do you know their stress level?
Do they know yours?
Because if you can take alittle simple, you know, verbal
survey of our stress levels arehigh.
(19:14):
Our kids are feeling stressedout.
I'm feeling stressed out.
We don't have time, we justgotta go, go, go because the
state standard testing is comingup and we've gotta get ready
for that.
Cool.
Well, how do you feel aboutthat?
Because now it's in a caringconversation and honestly, I'm
not the end all be all answer.
I don't have all the answers.
Like I said that earlier, I cansay that if you take the time
(19:35):
to actually play, you take thetime to take a little bit for
yourself, to help your staff out, your productivity, your
engagement, your stress levelsare gonna come down and I mean
just laugh for a little bit.
If you laugh for a little bit,you feel so much better.
It's like okay, okay, we're alittle bit lighter.
Now what if you start a youknow any of the staff meetings
or whatever with a simple liketwo or three minute video of
(19:59):
something hilarious andeverybody laughs and you go okay
, cool, let's try not to do thattoday, okay all right, go out
there and do your thing, people.
Eric Price (20:06):
Well, jeff, you might not have all of the
answers, but I certainly thinkyou've got more than bulls in me
, come on.
And so this is that time thatwe now get to see how good bulls
he really is.
He is the master ofsummarization.
So, bullsie, what do you gotfrom us, from the professionals
that play thinking?
Erich Bolz (20:25):
Well, I actually took a few notes.
Ep this is.
We do this just for mylistening comprehension skills,
jeff, just so you know, everytime, every time, yes, so really
, we hear this message over andover again and I see it.
I substitute once a week as aprincipal local school system so
I see firsthand that kids areless resilient and we've heard
(20:46):
from so many of our experts onthis podcast.
We've been fortunate enough tohear from folks that you
probably know, like Greg Benner,jim Sporelater, eric Drieson
and Luke Wall from only sevenseconds and filmmaker Aaron
Christopher, really all workingin these spaces around trying to
help mitigate thistrauma-informed typhoon tsunami
(21:06):
that we're dealing with, andthat this also impacts educators
.
That play, creates resilienceand fosters creativity.
Well, education's an incrediblycreative profession that
requires resilience.
So see some huge parallelsbetween the students and the
adults alike.
Screens are barriers.
Screens are barriers toconnections and I made that huge
(21:26):
connection to the only sevenseconds work.
And how do we find ways forfolks to connect when we know
that loneliness has literallybeen classified by the surgeon
general as an epidemic in ourcountry for kids and adults
alike?
Relationships before rigor weknow that.
We see that in our outlierconditions and characteristics
the constant reminder to becurious.
I think the most successful ofus are successful often because
(21:49):
we're driven by curiosity, and Ithink that's always something
important.
Jeff's story about the studentwith disabilities in Chicago
really resonated with an earlierepisode where we had coach Jim
Johnson on who is the coach ofthe student?
Who the basketball playeraffectionately known as TMAC,
tmac, and really that Jeff'sstory is an eerie parallel to
(22:12):
that power of inclusion and theincredible multiplier effect it
has, and when we include weprobably actually receive more
benefit than we convey.
So absolutely appreciated thatSEL defines how we behave.
It's really about kindness,play as a vehicle for SEL.
It helps us stay in the moment,Changing minds and hearts
(22:33):
through questions, always a goodreminder and incredibly
important leadership skill andapproach for all of us.
You know, don't get angry, getcurious, ask questions and play
being a gateway to culturebuilding, which is having a
strong culture, key componentthat we found in our positive
outlier study.
I just like to say simply, jeff, thanks for taking the time to
teach us and reinforce that it'simportant to be a good human.
Geoff McLachlan (22:56):
Thank you so much, man.
That's so everybody youmentioned, like all the people
that you've had on the podcast.
That's what we're all doing.
That's the beautiful thing.
There's a bunch of people doingit and I think a majority of us
are just trying to be a goodhuman and get little humans to
be good humans growing up.
Erich Bolz (23:13):
Well, and what I love about your space is it's a
collaborative space.
It's no one single approach hasthe answers.
We need all of these incrediblygifted practitioners coming
alongside of our publiceducators and really bolstering
these issues that are dauntingaround social, emotional
learning.
So what I love about your spaceis the collaboration.
There's always room for onemore person with one more good
(23:33):
idea that I like to call themlow touch, high impact that
teachers can implement tomorrowthat don't require taking that
resiliency window down by givingyour downtime to a profession
that's taken so much from you onthe day and on the moment.
So thank you again.
Eric Price (23:48):
And the most important thing, jeff, about
your space, of course, ispulling that finger, and we
appreciate you bringing us backto that eternal truth, jeff, how
did I miss that?
Jeff, thank you for the whatyou've shared with us about
professionals at play.
We can find you atprofessionals at playcom.
Thank you for joining us on theshow, jeff.
Geoff McLachlan (24:05):
Thank you so much you guys, have an awesome,
awesome rest of your week.
Work hard, play fair, be kindand make the world a great place
.
Erich Bolz (24:11):
Well, thank you so much, Jeff, and thanks to all of
you for joining us today.
You can find this episode andmore, anywhere you listen to
your favorite podcasts or visitus online at effectivenessorg.
Until next time.
This has been Outliers inEducation.
Eric Price (24:26):
Bang baby, Nice Sweet.
Ad VO (24:29):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive changein your school or district, take
a moment to visit CEE, theCenter for Educational
Effectiveness, ateffectivenessorg.
Better data, better decisions,better schools Effectivenessorg.
Outliers in Education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
To find out more, visiteffectivenessorg.
Eric Price (00:20):
Everybody needs a hug sometimes, and that's
especially true of our teachersand students these days.
Today, with the help of oneexpert guide, we'll take an
adventure in kindness right hereon Outliers in Education.
Ad VO (00:32):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we
do in schools, everything thatwe do as educators, it just
comes back to people.
I love it, even when it's hard,especially when it's hard.
Ultimately, I mean, this isabout what's best for kids.
Eric Price (00:49):
Welcome back everyone to another episode of
Outliers in Education, where weseek out folks who are not only
striving to make educationbetter in this country, but
actually doing it.
We're giving them for tips andtricks and wisdom.
I'm Eric Price, and with me, asusual, is my hug-able co-host
from the Center for EducationalEffectiveness, eric Bolz.
Bolzie, we're one month intothe new year and how are your
(01:12):
stress levels?
Erich Bolz (01:13):
My stress levels have never been better, EP.
Unfortunately, that might beattributable to the fact that
I'm rarely on the front lines ofpublic education anymore, like
I was for three decades previous, because we know there's some
real stressors out there today.
In many regards, I think thework's never been harder.
There's stressors for students,stressors for teachers.
We have stressors around someof the antidotes, in terms of
(01:36):
how some of us perceive just thephrase social, emotional
learning.
Yet there is, I think, anobvious optimistic cure, and
that is strengtheningrelationships student to student
, student to teacher.
As you know, ep, it all comesdown to the relationships.
Eric Price (01:51):
Yep, just like real estate, right Relationship,
relationship relationship.
As I said at the top of theshow, everybody could use a hug
sometimes, and today's guestactually does that
professionally.
Well, not actually giving hugs,although I'm sure that, Geoff,
you do that as well, but HUG isactually the name of one of a
variety of programs GeoffMcLachlan brings to students and
educators around the country inhis effort to lower stress
(02:13):
levels and help us allrediscover the joys of learning
together.
He's the founder ofProfessionals at Play, a speaker
, trainer and coach, as well asa former teacher.
Geoff, welcome to the show.
Geoff McLachlan (02:26):
Hello everybody , Thank you so much for having
me.
I'm excited to be here.
Eric Price (02:30):
So, Geoff, you started Professionals at Play
back in 2016.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat is and what you're trying
to accomplish.
Geoff McLachlan (02:40):
Well, I started off in education as an early
elementary school teacher allthe way down in kindergarten Wow
.
Now I'm assuming this is apodcast and people can't see me,
but I got a big beard A lot oftimes.
When kids would walk into theschool, like the very first day
of school, I was so excited asthey were.
But of course they would comearound the corner into the
classroom and they'd see thisguy with a big giant beard
(03:02):
standing there and there wereoftentimes screams and sometimes
accidents and parents going.
Well, where's the teacher?
Eric Price (03:10):
Like that's me.
Geoff McLachlan (03:11):
They're like I'm not leaving my kid with you,
where's the teacher?
So but I started off ineducation, really loved it, had
a great time.
And then I got pulled into thespeaking world and working with
students and again absolutelylove it, love working with kids.
But then, as I got a little bitolder, a lot of gray hair
(03:34):
happened, working with a lot ofpeople across the country, and
eventually I said, well, wait aminute, at some point I'm not
going to be as effective withyounger students as like some
young, cool hip guy.
And so I decided well, wait,maybe I'll start working with
the educators, the people thatwork with the students on a
daily basis, because then wehave some things in common and I
(03:56):
thought that would be a reallygood place.
I could amplify the message andthe amount of people that are
going out there and actuallydoing the work.
And so that's when I startedprofessionals at play work with
educators and corporationsacross the United States now,
and it's it's a lot of fun.
Eric Price (04:10):
And when you talk about young, cool and hip,
you're talking about people likebulls, right yeah?
Erich Bolz (04:14):
absolutely, yeah, exactly.
Eric Price (04:16):
I wanted to get that in there 100%.
Erich Bolz (04:18):
So, Jeff, give us an overview of what it looks like
when a group of educators engagewith you.
Geoff McLachlan (04:25):
First of all, there's always play involved.
Obviously, the company isprofessionals at play, and I
truly believe that everything wereally need to learn and to be
successful started on theplayground, right, it started on
when we were little kids.
Now the playground has changeda little bit over the last, you
know, many decades of my life,and specifically in schools.
(04:47):
You look at, like what happened?
We used to have merry-go-rounds, we used to have monkey bars.
We used to have the playgroundwas just a little bit dangerous,
just enough that you learned alot.
You learned I mean, you learnedphysics.
It was an actual physicsexperiment, right?
Well, then they started to get alittle safer and we started to
put cushioning down, but westill have the playground and
you learned all the socialskills that you needed because
(05:09):
it was unstructured playtime,and so when I work with adults
and I work with students, wetake the opportunity to put
ourselves back into theplayground situation and we do
that through facilitating largegroup activities, but a lot of
it is a lot of playbase and thenconversation.
So when people play together,it starts to break down the
walls, they start to become,they go back to that childhood
(05:31):
wonder and creativity andcuriosity, and it doesn't matter
how old you are.
I've had people play that were,you know, in their 70s and
maybe the rate of play goes downa little bit.
But at the same time, thecreativity, the joy, the wonder
and the conversations are justthis childlike is when they were
little kids, and so play isalways on the agenda whenever I
(05:54):
do any kind of training.
Erich Bolz (05:56):
So when you, when you're engaged in training, I'm
envisioning selling this messageto a high school staff.
So how do you get me to uncrossmy arms and engage?
Give us some examples of whatthat looks like.
Geoff McLachlan (06:10):
Okay, so I know it seems a little silly.
When was the last time youpulled somebody's finger?
Eric Price (06:16):
Well, really probably not too long ago, if
you ask Bulls and Mades.
Really that's a bad audience,that's a bad demographic, Jeff.
Geoff McLachlan (06:24):
But here's the thing If there's any guy in the
room, you say pull my finger,and they all giggle, why?
Because at heart we're allteenage boys, right, and that's.
We never really grow out ofthat.
And so if we can plug into thatsense of playfulness, that joy,
I will actually have peoplepull each other's fingers and
they and it's I know I say it,but it's, it's hilarious.
(06:45):
I just did a TEDx in Spokane andI asked the entire audience to
play and when I did this, I meanyou could hear an audible groan
as I asked them to stand up.
But then I got everybody apartner and as soon as I started
them playing, the very firstthing I had them do was put out
a hand, just like this, towardstheir partner.
The other partner makes afinger, like this, and then they
(07:06):
put their pointer finger intheir partner's palm and then I
say, on your marks, get set, go.
And when I say go, you try andpull your finger to safety, you
try and grab the other person'sfinger.
It was almost impossible to getthem back because they were
laughing so hard, Right?
And I mean you never think like.
You think that all of a suddenpulling a stranger's finger
wouldn't create that kind ofreaction, but it does and it's a
(07:29):
.
It's safe yeah.
Eric Price (07:31):
I don't know about all of you, but I'm feeling
better already.
Stay with us and we'll be rightback with more stress-free
insights right here on Outliersin Education.
Erich Bolz (08:25):
Great to have you next time.
Ad VO (08:27):
Thank you out the whole Educator Series online SCL
training available now from CEat effectivenessorg slash
workshops.
That's effectivenessorg slashworkshops.
Eric Price (08:46):
And we're back.
We're in the middle of aplayful chat with Jeff
McLaughlin, founder ofprofessionals at play.
So, jeff, let me ask you thiswhen we talk about some of the
structures that we've put in forkids, and if we look back, I
mean, you know, decades ago,when we were kids on the
playground, where there wasn'tthat structure, we had to make
up all the rules.
What have kids lost as a resultof that, and how do we see that
(09:10):
show up socially?
Geoff McLachlan (09:13):
That's a great question, as the playground has
changed.
It's not a lack of resilience,but the resilience has gone down
a little bit and you'restarting to see I mean,
especially post COVID, you see,like so many more mental health
issues with students you see,everything is like and instead
of having the resiliency of,okay, this was an event, it
(09:34):
happened, I got through it andnow I'm okay, now we're seeing
long-term lingering effects andpeople think that, oh my gosh, I
can't go out in public or Ican't talk to this person
because it's dangerous.
And that lack of resilienceversus when we were younger, we
fell down on the playground, youscraped your knee and there was
no one there to help you.
You kind of brushed yourselfoff and you got back up and you
(09:56):
kept going Because that's that's.
You wanted to keep playing.
And so you, you learned thatresilience through play and
through adversity and we learnedthat, yes, it hurts right now,
it's a moment in time, but it'sgoing to pass and then we're
going to get on to the nextthing, and so that that
resilience piece is really hugeand play helps to create
(10:18):
resilience.
You mentioned like coming upwith your own set of rules.
That's incredibly vital forcreativity for negotiating, for
all the things that we can dothat we would consider now
social, emotional learning.
That was just stuff you did onthe playground, yeah absolutely
yeah, you did not.
Eric Price (10:32):
when we were kids, you did not need to know which
color of face I was.
You know if we were playingfootball and you cheated, right?
I let you know that immediately.
I did not need to point to thered face, right?
Yeah?
Erich Bolz (10:43):
Right, jeff.
What do you notice about adultresilience, about teacher
resilience, during this time?
You've been at this since 2016,.
The world has shiftedseismically since 2016.
What have you noticed in thattime?
Geoff McLachlan (10:55):
Well, the probably the biggest thing is
that through COVID we saweducation change drastically.
So educators, as you weretrained to teach a subject, to
have classroom management, toengage with your students and
obviously to care about them, tocreate those relationships it
became so much harder because itwas through a screen.
If you didn't have thatcamaraderie already in the
(11:17):
classroom, it was much harder todevelop and so it's just
another barrier.
So the screen is a barrierbetween connection, and the
hardest part about education isthe biggest thing that we do is
connect with students.
Everybody knows that a greatteacher, the number one thing
that they do with theirclassroom, is they connect with
their kids and they know that.
Those kids know that theteacher cares and therefore the
(11:40):
kids care, and that's a 90%battle right there.
If you can do that, you're 90%of the way there.
The learning will happen if youhave the relationship.
Eric Price (11:48):
So Jeff, I teach a bunch of up and coming teachers
right, preservice teachers andif you were going to kind of
encapsulate what you just sharedthere about making those
connections, what would you say?
And then, if you gave them somedirections about how to do it,
what would you say there?
Geoff McLachlan (12:03):
The biggest thing is be curious, be curious,
ask questions.
If you allow your students toask why, on five, seven, 10
different levels, just keepasking why, why, why, we'll
eventually get down to it, right, but we teach that out of kids
now, which is unfortunatebecause you know by about the
third, fourth, fifth gradethey're going why and the
(12:24):
teacher goes because I said so.
Stop asking why, right, weliterally teach the curiosity
out of them.
And so, as up and comingeducators, maintain that
curiosity, not just about yoursubject but about your students,
because every single kid isgoing through something.
If you can just keep asking why, eventually you'll get down to
the thing that really matters tothem, about your kiddos.
Eric Price (12:45):
Absolutely About your kiddos.
Just keep asking therelationship because you're
always curious about it.
Geoff McLachlan (12:50):
Wait a minute, tell me more about that.
Well, what about that?
Does this?
Now, when you say that, whatdoes that really mean?
Like when I, when I have a kid,say, oh, that makes me really
happy, I'll say, great, I knowwhat happy means to me.
But what does happy mean to you?
Right, like just a simpledefinition of terms, because
then we're on the same playingfield.
Now we're playing fair becausewe have the same set of rules,
(13:10):
and that's vital for anyorganization, any group, any
classroom to be successful.
We just have a common language,we have a common set of rules.
Everybody plays by the same setof rules, so we can all win.
Eric Price (13:21):
So here's.
Here's one for you, jeff.
What is your best story aboutsomeone that didn't believe in
play and then started to playand then you made a believer
album?
Do you have a story?
Geoff McLachlan (13:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I was at a school in justoutside of Chicago, chicago
Illinois, big middle school,about a thousand kids in this
middle school and I was doing a.
I did a keynote and then I dida day of play with them.
And during the keynote for theentire school, I had all the
kids on one side of the gym andI tell a story about unicorns
(13:52):
and believing in things and kidsare like oh my gosh, and I mean
I'm, it's crazy.
I've had kids come up afteryears after me like you're this
guy, you're the, you're the.
They have no idea who I am, butthey're like you're the, you're
the unicorn guy.
So I'm like, yes, I am, but Iwas.
Erich Bolz (14:06):
I didn't tell the story.
Geoff McLachlan (14:08):
And then I did a little experiment where I'd
put four chairs out, have thekids sit down in the chairs.
They would lean back on the lapof the person behind them, they
would arch their back and thenI'd pull the chairs out.
Right, so you create a physicaltable out of students.
And I went and picked kids.
I said I need somebody tovolunteer, I need four of you,
and I had about 800 kids raisetheir hands and I was like dude,
this is the coolest school ever.
(14:28):
And so I just start pickingkids out.
I'm like you and you and you.
And then I pick a kid out ofthe front row and I'm like you,
come on down.
I didn't pay attention to thekids that I was picking and we
got them there.
I said, okay, do you playsports?
And every kid said yes and Isaid, okay, cool, are you guys
afraid of getting hurt?
And they all said yes and Isaid, okay, I'll take that as a
(14:50):
no.
Are you guys okay with danger?
And they're like yes, no, yes,no, cool, I'll take that as a
yes.
All right, here's what we'regoing to do.
And then I set them up and I dothe experiment and they do it
Well, as they're all going back,one of the kids, when he goes
over and sits down, I noticedthat he was sitting with all the
(15:10):
special needs students.
And I look over and I'm like hisparaprofessionals are just in
tears, they're just sobbing andI was like, okay, cool, and I do
the rest of my keynote.
And they come up to meafterwards and they're crying.
So as soon as they're crying,I'm like what's going on?
How's it going?
The crying unicorn now, exactly, I'm the crying unicorn.
(15:34):
And they said I don't know ifyou know what you just did, but
that kid is autistic and almostcompletely nonverbal.
Wow.
And he just got up in front ofa thousand kids.
Wow.
And he said did he do thisthing?
But he said his name, he talked.
That's more than we've heardhim talk.
(15:55):
No way, wow.
I mean, I was sobbing at thatpoint and we're just all hugging
each other and I'm like, okay,I got to work with the rest of
the kids now, but it wasfascinating because it was all
about support and caring andthese kids, like you had a
thousand kids just going crazyand screaming for these kids,
like you can do it, come on.
Erich Bolz (16:17):
Yeah.
Geoff McLachlan (16:18):
And then the rocket ship blasting off, just
the cacophony of noise, ofsupport, and it was one of the
most.
I wish I would have had that onfilm because that was like in
terms of my speaking career,that was, I think, the loudest
I've ever been in a gym, withkids cheering for each other.
And if we think about thatright, that support, that level
of support, if we had that atall schools, if kids showed up
(16:40):
and people cheered for them, ifeducators showed up and people
cheered for them, I don't thinkwe'd have hardly any problems at
all in schools.
Eric Price (16:47):
It's just like a regular board meeting.
That's what that sounds like tome.
Yeah, just play and cheering,that's right.
Geoff McLachlan (16:54):
I mean at least the ones you guys ran, the ones
that you did, yeah.
Erich Bolz (16:58):
AP and I never had the courage to run board
meetings, jeff.
We just sat there as unwittingparticipants.
So, switching gears slightly.
Sel has become sort of one ofthose polarizing acronyms or
catch phrases right now.
How have you, or how would you,combat the notions that it's
something we shouldn't beworking on?
Geoff McLachlan (17:18):
Oh, it's something we're always working
on.
The hard part is that peoplehave twisted it.
People have associated it withfor lack of a better word like
they think it's a far leftideology.
And it's not an ideology, it'sa simple how do we behave as
human beings?
The hard part is it's not aboutethics, it's just simply about
kindness.
How do we teach each other tobe good to each other?
(17:39):
A lot of people get that mixedup with.
Well, if you believe this, thenyou're this, and they start
pointing fingers and gettingargumentative and judgmental.
In reality, social-emotionallearning is really about how do
we get along, regardless of whatyou look like, sound like,
where you're from, the politicsyou practice or don't practice
Any of that.
The beautiful part is that playincorporates all of those
(17:59):
things, because you don't carewhat somebody looks like or
sounds like If you're playingand having a good time.
It's all about the moment, andit's one of the few times you're
really truly physically presentwith another human being is
when you're playing with them,and so if I think we can make
that little paradigm shift fromthis is a political ideology to
this is a how to be a good human, and it's not judgmental, it's
(18:21):
not political-based, it issimply a.
It's the stuff that we learnedin kindergarten that people are
now getting all in a tizzy aboutbecause they think it's like
you're going to teach our kidsthis Like no, it's just work
hard, play fair and be kind.
Eric Price (18:36):
So, jeff, let me ask you this If I am a type A, get
a done, you know, scope andsequence type person, not that
that's bad but then I would say,hey, I don't have time for play
.
What would be your elevatorpitch to me about no, here's.
Here's why it's important.
Geoff McLachlan (18:53):
I'm going to ask you questions.
I'm actually I'm just going tosimply say hey, how do you feel
about that?
How does your staff feel?
Do you know your staff's hopesand dreams?
Do they know yours?
Do you know their stress level?
Do they know yours?
Because if you can take alittle simple, you know, verbal
survey of our stress levels arehigh.
(19:14):
Our kids are feeling stressedout.
I'm feeling stressed out.
We don't have time, we justgotta go, go, go because the
state standard testing is comingup and we've gotta get ready
for that.
Cool.
Well, how do you feel aboutthat?
Because now it's in a caringconversation and honestly, I'm
not the end all be all answer.
I don't have all the answers.
Like I said that earlier, I cansay that if you take the time
(19:35):
to actually play, you take thetime to take a little bit for
yourself, to help your staff out, your productivity, your
engagement, your stress levelsare gonna come down and I mean
just laugh for a little bit.
If you laugh for a little bit,you feel so much better.
It's like okay, okay, we're alittle bit lighter.
Now what if you start a youknow any of the staff meetings
or whatever with a simple liketwo or three minute video of
(19:59):
something hilarious andeverybody laughs and you go okay
, cool, let's try not to do thattoday, okay all right, go out
there and do your thing, people.
Eric Price (20:06):
Well, jeff, you might not have all of the
answers, but I certainly thinkyou've got more than bulls in me
, come on.
And so this is that time thatwe now get to see how good bulls
he really is.
He is the master ofsummarization.
So, bullsie, what do you gotfrom us, from the professionals
that play thinking?
Erich Bolz (20:25):
Well, I actually took a few notes.
Ep this is.
We do this just for mylistening comprehension skills,
jeff, just so you know, everytime, every time, yes, so really
, we hear this message over andover again and I see it.
I substitute once a week as aprincipal local school system so
I see firsthand that kids areless resilient and we've heard
(20:46):
from so many of our experts onthis podcast.
We've been fortunate enough tohear from folks that you
probably know, like Greg Benner,jim Sporelater, eric Drieson
and Luke Wall from only sevenseconds and filmmaker Aaron
Christopher, really all workingin these spaces around trying to
help mitigate thistrauma-informed typhoon tsunami
(21:06):
that we're dealing with, andthat this also impacts educators
.
That play, creates resilienceand fosters creativity.
Well, education's an incrediblycreative profession that
requires resilience.
So see some huge parallelsbetween the students and the
adults alike.
Screens are barriers.
Screens are barriers toconnections and I made that huge
(21:26):
connection to the only sevenseconds work.
And how do we find ways forfolks to connect when we know
that loneliness has literallybeen classified by the surgeon
general as an epidemic in ourcountry for kids and adults
alike?
Relationships before rigor weknow that.
We see that in our outlierconditions and characteristics
the constant reminder to becurious.
I think the most successful ofus are successful often because
(21:49):
we're driven by curiosity, and Ithink that's always something
important.
Jeff's story about the studentwith disabilities in Chicago
really resonated with an earlierepisode where we had coach Jim
Johnson on who is the coach ofthe student?
Who the basketball playeraffectionately known as TMAC,
tmac, and really that Jeff'sstory is an eerie parallel to
(22:12):
that power of inclusion and theincredible multiplier effect it
has, and when we include weprobably actually receive more
benefit than we convey.
So absolutely appreciated thatSEL defines how we behave.
It's really about kindness,play as a vehicle for SEL.
It helps us stay in the moment,Changing minds and hearts
(22:33):
through questions, always a goodreminder and incredibly
important leadership skill andapproach for all of us.
You know, don't get angry, getcurious, ask questions and play
being a gateway to culturebuilding, which is having a
strong culture, key componentthat we found in our positive
outlier study.
I just like to say simply, jeff, thanks for taking the time to
teach us and reinforce that it'simportant to be a good human.
Geoff McLachlan (22:56):
Thank you so much, man.
That's so everybody youmentioned, like all the people
that you've had on the podcast.
That's what we're all doing.
That's the beautiful thing.
There's a bunch of people doingit and I think a majority of us
are just trying to be a goodhuman and get little humans to
be good humans growing up.
Erich Bolz (23:13):
Well, and what I love about your space is it's a
collaborative space.
It's no one single approach hasthe answers.
We need all of these incrediblygifted practitioners coming
alongside of our publiceducators and really bolstering
these issues that are dauntingaround social, emotional
learning.
So what I love about your spaceis the collaboration.
There's always room for onemore person with one more good
(23:33):
idea that I like to call themlow touch, high impact that
teachers can implement tomorrowthat don't require taking that
resiliency window down by givingyour downtime to a profession
that's taken so much from you onthe day and on the moment.
So thank you again.
Eric Price (23:48):
And the most important thing, jeff, about
your space, of course, ispulling that finger, and we
appreciate you bringing us backto that eternal truth, jeff, how
did I miss that?
Jeff, thank you for the whatyou've shared with us about
professionals at play.
We can find you atprofessionals at playcom.
Thank you for joining us on theshow, jeff.
Geoff McLachlan (24:05):
Thank you so much you guys, have an awesome,
awesome rest of your week.
Work hard, play fair, be kindand make the world a great place
.
Erich Bolz (24:11):
Well, thank you so much, Jeff, and thanks to all of
you for joining us today.
You can find this episode andmore, anywhere you listen to
your favorite podcasts or visitus online at effectivenessorg.
Until next time.
This has been Outliers inEducation.
Eric Price (24:26):
Bang baby, Nice Sweet.
Ad VO (24:29):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive changein your school or district, take
a moment to visit CEE, theCenter for Educational
Effectiveness, ateffectivenessorg.
Better data, better decisions,better schools Effectivenessorg.
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