March 1, 2024 • 28 mins
Jamie Johnson is out to foment a "rebellion against overwhelm" that threatens education in this country.
Educator, author, and coach Jamie Johnson left her work as a teacher so that she might have an even greater impact on education in this country. Her first salvo, a new book entitled "Teach and Still Have Time to Pee" is a serious take on tackling teacher burnout couched in entertaining tales from the front lines of education. Well-researched and wide-ranging, Johnson's work sets forth everything from practical hacks for educator well-being to proposals for moving education policy forward.
In this episode, Johnson advocates for a world where educators don't just survive the school year, but thrive in a more balanced, fulfilling career that improves student outcomes along the way.
Find out more about Jamie Johnson and her book at:
Amazon
Kindle version
Facebook
Instagram
Or reach out to her directly at jamie@kickassteacher.com
"Outliers in Education" is a project of CEE, The Center for Educational Effectiveness. Find out more at effectiveness.org.
Produced by Jamie Howell at Howell at the Moon Productions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ad VO (00:05):
Outliers in Education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
To find out more, visiteffectivenessorg.
Eric Price (00:21):
Educators are on overload.
Never ending task lists piledon top of daily emergencies,
hostile boards, angry parents,troubled kids.
Really it's just too much.
But there are ways to lightenthe load.
Discover how to turn your to-dolist into a ta-da list and have
the energy to spare All of thaton today's episode of Outliers
(00:42):
in Education.
Ad VO (00:45):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we
do in schools.
Everything that we do aseducators, it just comes back to
people.
Eric Price (00:53):
I love it, even when it's hard, especially when it's
hard.
Ad VO (00:56):
Ultimately, this is about what's best for kids.
Eric Price (01:01):
Welcome everyone and thank you for taking time to
join us for anotherinsight-filled, action-packed
episode of Outliers in Education.
I'm Eric Price, here as always,with my partner in podcasting,
eric Bowles, from the Center forEducational Effectiveness.
Time, energy, motivationEducators are finding these
things in shorter and shortersupply these days and, not
(01:21):
surprisingly, we're starting tolose them.
We constantly hear fromtalented, devoted teachers and
administrators who are beingcrushed by the demands of our
job.
Yet the only solution seems tobe to do even more, and even to
do it faster to implement newinitiatives in the classroom,
track more data, take moremeetings, all on top of the
teaching they all signed up todo in the first place.
(01:41):
Bowles, it seems like it's apressure cooker out there.
What do you?
Erich Bolz (01:45):
think.
Well, I totally agree, and I'vehad the good fortune to sub as
a substitute administrator atthe building level once a week
since last May and it's done acouple of things for me.
One it's humbling, because thefurther away you get from your
job, the better you are at it.
So this keeps me just closeenough to the field to know that
I too struggle like everybodyelse.
Also want to make it direct tieto what we do at the Center for
(02:07):
Educational Effectiveness.
We measure teacher satisfaction, teacher overload, teacher
advocacy, which is a fancy wayof saying how well do teachers
work together, teacher'srelationship with principals,
how well principals work.
I was also struck by the notionthat teachers work 54 hours a
week.
In the state of Washingtontheir contract had worked 37 and
a half hours a week.
Just under half that time isactually devoted to working with
(02:29):
students.
So in addition to devotingcopious hours a week essentially
to volunteerism, a lot of thatdoesn't translate into directly
working with the children thatthey serve.
So there are a lot ofconundrums that we're facing out
there in public education atthis time.
Ep totally agree.
Eric Price (02:42):
Yeah, and I think that's frustrating.
When you signed up to do thisteaching and it ends up being
that proportion.
It's a heavy load, but ourguest today has spent years in
the teaching trenches and hasemerged with a plan to lighten
the load on educators and evenhelped to restore happiness to
the job.
She spent decades as anaward-winning teacher herself.
(03:03):
Today she's a speaker, she's apersonal coach, she's the author
of a new book and I love thistitle Teach and still have time
to pee.
Jamie, with a title like that,I don't actually think you need
an introduction.
But welcome to the show, jamieJohnson.
Jamie Johnson (03:17):
Thank you, eric, I'm excited to be here.
Eric Price (03:20):
We are happy to have you and let's just kind of
start by digging into thatawesome title.
What inspired that title, orhow did you come up with it and
what's your intent to do withthat book when you wrote it?
Jamie Johnson (03:32):
Yeah, the title it gets everybody for sure.
So obviously I wanted to makesure people noticed it.
But the inspiration actuallyit's not a joke.
It was in a doctor's office andshe mentioned that teachers and
RNs had among the highest rateof bladder infections and UTIs
(03:52):
because they don't take time topee, they don't go to the
bathroom, and I also learnedwhen I was speaking to some
teachers in Australia that theyactually call it teacher bladder
in Australia.
So I thought, okay, we don'thave time for one of the most
basic Moments of self-care, tothe point that it's making us
sick.
Erich Bolz (04:13):
and that is going to be the title of my book so,
jamie, I just want to say Ithoroughly enjoyed your book.
Read a cover to cover.
So many things to cover, solet's just start at the top.
What's it to do list and why isit better than a to-do list?
Jamie Johnson (04:26):
To-do list and so you know when you say to know,
you know like magic it's done.
A to-do list we all usuallyhave them, you know it's a list
of all the things we want to getdone today or this week, and it
gets longer and Less isfinished than you think every
day.
So to-do list I consider to besomething that has been
(04:47):
disempowering in my world as aneducator, because the job itself
is not humanly possible to doall of the things in what?
Maybe six hours if you werelucky with students during a day
.
So a to-do list never gets done.
A to-do list is a celebration ofeverything that does get done
and it is very empowering tolook back on your day.
(05:09):
When you're feeling discouragedand Overwhelmed because maybe
you've got nothing done and youhave a whole pile of more to do.
You look back instead and juststart writing down everything
you did get done and Justkeeping it as simple as that.
Giving that a try, people areamazed at how much they actually
do and and accomplish in a dayand how much better they feel
(05:32):
looking at their day in that way, and that's a very simplified
version.
I mean we do have to.
We need to have goals andtargets for our day, but being
really intentional and carefulwith those not to create
something that's overwhelmingand discouraging and instead be
Encouraging to ourselves.
Eric Price (05:47):
So, jamie, you, you were obviously a stellar teacher
, your award-winning, for years.
So what?
What made you decide to kind ofpop out of the the system and
did you think that you were ableto have more influence from
outside the system than beingthe teacher?
Jamie Johnson (06:04):
It was really hard to decide to step out
because of my students.
I loved my students.
I worked with a very sensitivepopulation of kiddos and To make
that choice was difficult onthat end.
But, as you said, I had startedwinning some awards and there
was a moment when I was standingup receiving an award when to
(06:27):
get to that place?
I my job had been threatenedmultiple times by dissatisfied
administration and the choices Iwas making and trying to follow
what research and Evidence wassaying would impact my students.
I was getting attacked thewhole time.
It was making me miserable, itwas making me sick.
And Then, on the other hand,there's a small group of people
(06:50):
who are awarding me and I didn't.
I got up to receive the word anddidn't feel like I had the
voice to say All of this at thattime.
I just didn't have the energyor the voice to say that.
I got here by skipping oversome harmful mandates and
risking my job and I realized,as long as I keep doing things
(07:12):
really well in this system, it'sgoing to be twisted and turned
to say, look, she can do it,she's doing great, and then
we'll use that moral blackmailon other teachers saying that
you should be doing these thingswhen they don't feel like they
have the space or License to bethat creative, because they
can't risk their jobs or they'renot willing to to be able to
(07:34):
serve their students.
So I I knew in that moment, ifI stay in the system, I'm going
to make the system look good andit's going to perpetuate
something that's really Harmfulto my students at that time.
So I need to find another way.
Eric Price (07:45):
Yeah, and maybe even harmful to yourself, right?
Jamie Johnson (07:48):
Oh, it was definitely harmful to me.
Yes, yeah, but I wanted to findanother way to do those good
things and See if I could luresome people in.
Erich Bolz (07:57):
So Jamie, one of the things that really impresses me
about your book is it sort ofartfully moves from pedagogy to
neuroscience, to Self-care andthen, ultimately, policy
analysis.
What would those changes inpolicy be that would Implicate a
system that would enable us tohave healthy, happy teachers
every classroom.
Jamie Johnson (08:14):
So, on top of having healthy, happy teachers
having an impact on students, ithas an impact on ourselves as
well, the teachers as well.
I think that the biggest policychanges that I could see being
made is any policy that willcreate more time and autonomy
(08:34):
over time for the educator, andthat is based on research that I
read it was actually researchon research by Daniel Pink and
then I started practicing thatautonomy over time, handing that
over to my students and myselfas much as possible.
I watched what that did forpeople and just that one shift.
(08:57):
I mean there's, of course, amillion shifts like smaller
class sizes, which would give usmore time building more schools
, but if we just focus on thattime piece, how can we get
people to not be working?
What did you say?
54 hour weeks and get back tothat 37 hour week?
How can we?
What policies do we need tomake that happen?
That one thing according to thescience of well-being, all that
(09:23):
research out of Yale makes thebiggest impact on happiness in a
person Time affluence makesmore of an impact than monetary
affluence regarding happiness.
Erich Bolz (09:33):
So, jamie, I have a quick follow up.
So I completely in agreementwith what you say and when you
think about, in the world thatwe live in, that's, I think,
outsized, influenced bycorporate America.
It's all about money and thattrickles down into politics.
It's all about efficiency.
So we laud ourselves on givingthese public institutions the
least amount of resource theycan have to do the most amount
(09:55):
of job.
So how does that change whenthe rubber meets the road?
And we know it's all aboutmoney.
Jamie Johnson (10:00):
So how does it change?
I mean, that's it's a huge petpeeve of mine, actually, because
we make so many decisions basedon budget, not on students, and
when we put the budget beforethe kids, something is seriously
wrong and it's not going towork.
It just won't work.
It won't get the results wewant.
So, when the rubber meets theroad, how do we change policy,
(10:23):
knowing that that's the way itis?
I, you know, I don't know if Ihave the answer to that I think
it's just voices many voices arekey here and the voices of the
parents, the voices of thestudents pulling in, all of our
advocates to really talk abouthow that's impacting us when
we're choosing to put budgetover students.
Eric Price (10:45):
Jamie, I love that phrase time affluence.
I think that's fantastic, justbecause I've never actually been
monetarily affluent, so maybe Ican be rich on the time side.
But so you're talking to acouple of folks that have
stepped outside of education aswell and we continue to work
within it, and you've done thatsame process.
What advice would you have forthose folks that are still
(11:05):
within the system, they're stillteaching, they're still leading
?
How can they best affect changewithin that system and still
being in it?
Jamie Johnson (11:13):
One of the things that I did for myself, once I
had really dug into some of thatresearch, is to recognize okay,
so I need autonomy over my time.
And in education, the threetiers of motivation are mastery,
purpose and autonomy.
And in autonomy there's fourelements.
One of them is time.
In education, whether you'rethe teacher or the administrator
(11:35):
or the student, autonomy is notcommonly present.
We're telling kids what towrite, who to write with and how
to do it, and say with teachingwhat to teach who your team's
going to be, how to do it For me.
On the time piece, I decided howam I going to get autonomy over
time?
I spoke to my administrator, myprincipal, and shared with her
(11:58):
what I was trying and said Ithink if I could shift my day to
have Thursdays and Fridays, Ileave with the kids, I don't
stay late, I don't stay even tothe hour after contract hours,
because I'm gonna bank that timeearlier in the week and I'm
gonna try out this thing where Igo snowboarding in the
afternoons or go do somethingfun for myself and see how that
(12:21):
impacts my presence at school,my life, happiness and how I
show up for my students.
And she agreed and I also Isaid on our mornings, when we
have, we had used to have latestart mornings where you would
have prep time, some of thosemornings to plan and grade, and
it wasn't happening well atschool.
Those that sacred yeah, thatsacred time would be interrupted
(12:45):
by other people needing this orthat.
So I requested that I take thattime and do those things at
home.
And so she approved all of thatand it felt so good to have an
administrator believe in me, inwhat I was doing and give me
that choice.
And then it did impact my how Ishowed up at school, how my
(13:08):
brain functioned, because Iwasn't working past my
efficiency level.
So that was one thing that Ipushed inside the system with.
But the other thing is to notgive myself extra work and not
take my own time away byassigning extra assignments that
I don't need to be assigning toreally assess good student
(13:29):
learning Right.
Eric Price (13:30):
cause that workload is gonna be, you know, eternal
right If you don't limit it.
Jamie Johnson (13:33):
Yep, and we do add a lot more to our own plates
as well, a lot of the time so.
Erich Bolz (13:39):
So obviously you stepped out and, through your
book and other activities,become an advocate for change
inside of education.
What advice would you have forother educators to become
advocates for change?
Jamie Johnson (13:50):
Not everybody is willing to risk their job to try
something new, so I'm not.
I wanna make sure people knowI'm not suggesting that that's
the way to do things.
I think if you wanna makechange in a low risk way where
you're, you know you're notshaking the tree so much it just
get a team together and havemore than one voice.
(14:13):
Really find who your advocatesare.
Who are the people waving yourflag?
Is it?
Look outside the school as well.
You know.
Are their parents?
Are their organizations?
Are there other people who canhelp amplify your voice for
change?
And only pick one thing.
It doesn't have to be somethingbig, trying to change the whole
system at once.
(14:33):
You know again, we're addingmore work to our plate and it's
too much.
So picking your team if you'rean administrator in this work or
a leader in education, givepeople more autonomy to choose
their teams and choose whothey're working with.
Just because they're in a thirdgrade band does not necessarily
mean that's the band of peoplethey need to be learning and
(14:54):
studying and working with.
They might have a passion forfocusing on literacy or focusing
in on something else and shouldbe given some autonomy to find
their passion, find their teamand find their voice within that
team to affect powerful change.
Eric Price (15:11):
Well, if you need a quick break, maybe to pee, now's
the time.
We'll be back in 60 secondswith more from Jamie Johnson
right here on Outliers inEducation.
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Eric Price (16:25):
Welcome back everyone.
We're chatting with the kickass teacher herself, Jamie
Johnson, author of the new bookTeach and Still have Time to
Peek.
Jamie, can you tell me, whenyou talk about this idea of
strong boundaries right Like Ithink, I 100% agree with you
what kinds of functional helpwould you give for teachers so
(16:45):
that they can have those strongboundaries?
Jamie Johnson (16:48):
Yeah, so I like to call them courageous
boundaries, because when we'resetting boundaries in a system,
that where status quo is just sodeeply entrenched, people don't
like us to have some of theboundaries we need to set.
So they are courageous Again.
One of the biggest boundariesthat's going to get you the most
(17:09):
change in your motivation andalertness and kindness and
patience at school is aroundtime.
So one of the ways to set aboundary around that with
yourself, because a boundary isfor you.
You have to respect it and honorit.
Whether other people do doesn'tmatter, because you're the one
holding your boundaries.
So setting an alarm was lifechanging for me, because I would
(17:34):
not honor my own time boundaryif I didn't have some way to be
accountable to it, and just thatlittle bell would help me go.
Okay, I've done enough.
This is plenty.
I'm stopping where I said Iwould stop.
It's time to go home or move onto the next thing.
So alarms are huge.
And then again I mentioned stopcreating extra work.
So boundaries around yourworkload can start with yourself
(17:55):
.
I worked with a teacher who shecalled.
She reached out for someone-on-one coaching and her
issue it was time and all thework, all the grading.
It was just overwhelming her.
So we went through and I lookedat the state requirements for a
grade.
To give a grade, I believe atthat time, you had to have eight
(18:18):
pieces of evidence to give thatgrade and she had over 40.
And I thought, well, why areyou doing that, not only to
yourself but to your students?
So I'm like let's cut it downto eight, and not eight big,
giant ones either, like eightawesome, meaningful pieces of
evidence and let's see whathappens there.
(18:40):
So just really looking at whatwork you're creating for
yourself.
That doesn't need to be there,jamie so much in the book.
Erich Bolz (18:49):
We're only gonna get to a fraction of it, obviously,
but could you share with us onestory or vignette that is
particularly poignant to youinside of the book?
That might resonate with ouraudience.
Jamie Johnson (19:00):
Just before COVID started.
I hold several thousandteachers and got about 500
responses, and the question Iasked was what is the most
painful part of teaching?
And I was expecting all kindsof things, but 90% came back
saying that parents were themost painful part of teaching.
(19:20):
So then I disaggregated thatdata further and kind of looked
at well okay, what is it aboutparents?
And only 11% of that 90% washelicopter parents.
And then it was split 50-50between parents that bully and
parents that just disappear.
You know that are totallyuninvolved.
(19:42):
So I convinced my colleagues todo home visits with me after
school.
And how in the world does thatcreate time for me?
And I did have to skip somemath lessons and things to make
time for that.
But I knew, according toresearch, that their math scores
would improve and they did if Icreated, built a relationship
with them.
So we did home visits and weagreed never to go alone.
(20:03):
And so I had one child left andI was feeling so guilty because
he was the last one and it wastaking forever to get a time
with my colleagues and theparent and bloody daddy, and so
I decided well, I'm gonna justdo this one alone.
And so I went to the home visitby myself and what the my
(20:24):
student was showing me around,showing me as Legos, he was all
excited.
And this particular parent didnot like school, had not had a
good experience in school,didn't like teachers and I had
known that.
And the dad says to me I'mgetting ready to go out the door
.
He leans back in this like lazyboy lounge chair and looks at
(20:44):
me in that like Lord of theManor style and says would you
like to taste my nuts?
They're salty.
And I didn't get it at first.
It took me a second until Ilooked over at my student's face
and saw his mortification.
And then I was like, oh my God,I can't believe this is
happening right now.
(21:05):
And I was flooded with like somuch sadness.
I mean it just broke my heartbecause we'd had such a good
home visit.
I was so excited to be buildinga relationship with this parent
who hated school, hated teachers, and I just I was kind and
looked at him and said no thanksand I gotta go and then went in
(21:26):
my car and cried and raged andthen he I ended up coming to
school a couple days later, likethe next week, and I could see.
He felt so guilty andembarrassed and apologized, and
our relationship from that pointon was totally different.
He was supportive.
He saw that I was there topartner in his child's success
(21:54):
and I wasn't representative ofwhat he had experienced in
school.
I wasn't there to hurt hischild in any way.
So it was an awful experience,but at the same time I have so
many of those stories whereparents who did not want to,
even literally would not speakto me, turning into people that
(22:15):
were on my team with their childand that saved me time because
they would help their childprogress at home in key ways
that really make all thedifference in student growth and
learning.
So it made my job easier in theend.
Eric Price (22:33):
Jamie, if you were going to talk to a practicing
teacher and you're going to say,hey, here are the top three
teacher hacks that I'm going togive you that will really help
you out the most, what threewould you give them?
Jamie Johnson (22:48):
I would, and we kind of talked a little bit
about these.
I think I'm going to reiterateset alarms If you have a task or
a project.
A good example my friend wassetting up a bulletin board and
she had an alarm set and whenthe tire went off she stopped
and there was one little pieceof border that hadn't been
stapled on yet and she left itthat way the entire quarter.
(23:11):
That was her time for the taskand I loved that.
I thought it was such a goodexample for me.
But set an alarm and what youget done is enough.
And then so that's one.
The second one I would say isstop creating extra work for
yourself.
So really look at the workyou're doing and keep the core
(23:33):
coolest, most awesome pieces andlet everything else go.
You don't need all of that tobe an amazing educator.
You are amazing.
More is not going to makethings better for you or your
students.
And then the third thing wouldbe giving up some of that work,
that homework or whatever extrawork to build in relationships,
(23:55):
because that is where the senseof purpose lies in what we do
with your.
You know, wherever you're at inthe world of education, those
relationships, if it's arelationship with your staff or
a relationship with yourstudents as educators.
Again, relationships with theparents, because that is what
I've understood to be the mostpainful part of teaching.
Those are the three hacks thatwill make the biggest difference
(24:17):
in your day and your quality oflife at work.
Eric Price (24:21):
Awesome.
Thank you, Jamie.
Well, now is the time that weget to tap into that awesome
intelligence of Bullsy here inhis summarization.
Bullsy, love to see you put astitch in this one.
What do you got for a wrap?
It was so wide ranging.
Erich Bolz (24:38):
I got a full page of notes.
I'm going to try to summarizehere, so I want to start at the
top.
I fell in love with the book.
It's pithy and fun writingstyle.
It was incredibly wellresearched.
Seldom and Hunter Pages have Iseen something that toggles so
effortlessly and yet discreetlyinside of the research with you
know shout outs to neuroscience,shout outs to self-care so many
(25:00):
things we didn't really covertoday that are inside of the
book.
We didn't talk a whole lotabout self-care, but what Pete
Paul has to say about self-careand one of our earlier episodes
is definitely worth arevisitation Great privilege,
pedagogy, hacks to improvepedagogy and policy advocacy,
just to say a few.
So I was absolutely bowled overby the content and the style of
(25:22):
the books of home run should beread by, I think, every teacher
and principal, maybe even moreimportantly, policymakers.
So all that to say, workingconditions for teachers are just
really tough.
Can you imagine a law officewhere lawyers were intentionally
not ingesting fluids so thatthey could get through their
workday?
I mean it really makes no sensein a professional context.
We've got to get away from thatscarcity mentality.
(25:42):
I love the tada.
It's something I should adoptmyself.
Track and celebrate youraccomplishments as opposed to
burdening yourself with tasksthat maybe you're just assigning
yourself was a big takeaway.
Kudos to sticking up for whatworks and not bending to
institutional pressure in thecontext of your career.
You know we need more talentedMaverick folks in the United
States across every profession.
(26:03):
Budgets before students that'llnever work.
I'm hoping that our earlierpodcast guest, reed Sarris, a
candidate for OSPIsuperintendent, happens to
listen to that and he strikes meas somebody who's going to beat
that policy drum as well.
Find your advocacy tribe.
Pick the one thing that you canwork on and change.
You can't fix everything.
I think that's really greatadvice.
We share that same advice atCEE when we're working with
(26:26):
staffs to unpack our data sets.
You know one of the one tothree things in here that you
could do that really already inthe context of your work.
That would make the greatestdifference.
So we use a lot of the sameadvice Any relationships over
homework.
We know at CEE thatrelationships are job one.
We believe that mantra to itscore, so hearing that over again
was super helpful, and Jamie'sstory about salty nuts may be
(26:48):
hard for some people to hear asfar as just the course language
and the discourse, but what itreally stood out to me was it's
a strong reminder that we shouldnever give up on the
possibility of a strongrelationship.
So inside of that salacioustitle is a moral lesson that we
could all benefit from or shouldbe reinforced Push outside of
(27:08):
your comfort zone.
That's really critical.
Getting to the three hacks Setboundaries.
Boy advice I don't follow verywell myself.
I love the bulletin boardborder example.
I mean having that visual ofit's okay not to have that
finished.
Super helpful that you areenough without assigning those
extra tasks.
I think we're.
I think we dipped our toe alittle bit into Brené Brown
(27:29):
territory there.
And above all and we would saythe same thing at CEE build
relationships.
It's job one.
And I would conclude by sayingmaybe the Beatles were right.
I think what Jamie and theBeatles are telling us is that
love is all you need.
Eric Price (27:42):
You're bringing tears to my eyes bowls.
Where can we find your book,jamie?
Jamie Johnson (27:46):
You can get it on Kindle or Amazon at
teachandstillhowtime2pcom.
Eric Price (27:51):
Okay, awesome, and also Facebook under this title.
I love kick ass teacher.
Jamie thanks for being on theshow.
You can find her book on Amazonand you can find her on
Facebook under kick ass teacher.
So, jamie, thanks again forbeing on the show.
It was awesome to have you.
Jamie Johnson (28:08):
Oh, I had a blast .
You guys are so much fun.
Thanks, you guys.
Erich Bolz (28:12):
And thanks to all of you for listening today.
You can find this episode andmore anywhere you listen to your
favorite podcasts or visit usonline at effectivenessorg.
Until next time, this has beenOutliers in Education.
Ad VO (28:27):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive changein your school or district, take
a moment to visit CEE, theCenter for Educational
Effectiveness, ateffectivenessorg.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
No-transcript.
Outliers in Education is brought to you by CEE, the
Center for EducationalEffectiveness.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
To find out more, visiteffectivenessorg.
Eric Price (00:21):
Educators are on overload.
Never ending task lists piledon top of daily emergencies,
hostile boards, angry parents,troubled kids.
Really it's just too much.
But there are ways to lightenthe load.
Discover how to turn your to-dolist into a ta-da list and have
the energy to spare All of thaton today's episode of Outliers
(00:42):
in Education.
Ad VO (00:45):
I think we really need to change how we look at what we
do in schools.
Everything that we do aseducators, it just comes back to
people.
Eric Price (00:53):
I love it, even when it's hard, especially when it's
hard.
Ad VO (00:56):
Ultimately, this is about what's best for kids.
Eric Price (01:01):
Welcome everyone and thank you for taking time to
join us for anotherinsight-filled, action-packed
episode of Outliers in Education.
I'm Eric Price, here as always,with my partner in podcasting,
eric Bowles, from the Center forEducational Effectiveness.
Time, energy, motivationEducators are finding these
things in shorter and shortersupply these days and, not
(01:21):
surprisingly, we're starting tolose them.
We constantly hear fromtalented, devoted teachers and
administrators who are beingcrushed by the demands of our
job.
Yet the only solution seems tobe to do even more, and even to
do it faster to implement newinitiatives in the classroom,
track more data, take moremeetings, all on top of the
teaching they all signed up todo in the first place.
(01:41):
Bowles, it seems like it's apressure cooker out there.
What do you?
Erich Bolz (01:45):
think.
Well, I totally agree, and I'vehad the good fortune to sub as
a substitute administrator atthe building level once a week
since last May and it's done acouple of things for me.
One it's humbling, because thefurther away you get from your
job, the better you are at it.
So this keeps me just closeenough to the field to know that
I too struggle like everybodyelse.
Also want to make it direct tieto what we do at the Center for
(02:07):
Educational Effectiveness.
We measure teacher satisfaction, teacher overload, teacher
advocacy, which is a fancy wayof saying how well do teachers
work together, teacher'srelationship with principals,
how well principals work.
I was also struck by the notionthat teachers work 54 hours a
week.
In the state of Washingtontheir contract had worked 37 and
a half hours a week.
Just under half that time isactually devoted to working with
(02:29):
students.
So in addition to devotingcopious hours a week essentially
to volunteerism, a lot of thatdoesn't translate into directly
working with the children thatthey serve.
So there are a lot ofconundrums that we're facing out
there in public education atthis time.
Ep totally agree.
Eric Price (02:42):
Yeah, and I think that's frustrating.
When you signed up to do thisteaching and it ends up being
that proportion.
It's a heavy load, but ourguest today has spent years in
the teaching trenches and hasemerged with a plan to lighten
the load on educators and evenhelped to restore happiness to
the job.
She spent decades as anaward-winning teacher herself.
(03:03):
Today she's a speaker, she's apersonal coach, she's the author
of a new book and I love thistitle Teach and still have time
to pee.
Jamie, with a title like that,I don't actually think you need
an introduction.
But welcome to the show, jamieJohnson.
Jamie Johnson (03:17):
Thank you, eric, I'm excited to be here.
Eric Price (03:20):
We are happy to have you and let's just kind of
start by digging into thatawesome title.
What inspired that title, orhow did you come up with it and
what's your intent to do withthat book when you wrote it?
Jamie Johnson (03:32):
Yeah, the title it gets everybody for sure.
So obviously I wanted to makesure people noticed it.
But the inspiration actuallyit's not a joke.
It was in a doctor's office andshe mentioned that teachers and
RNs had among the highest rateof bladder infections and UTIs
(03:52):
because they don't take time topee, they don't go to the
bathroom, and I also learnedwhen I was speaking to some
teachers in Australia that theyactually call it teacher bladder
in Australia.
So I thought, okay, we don'thave time for one of the most
basic Moments of self-care, tothe point that it's making us
sick.
Erich Bolz (04:13):
and that is going to be the title of my book so,
jamie, I just want to say Ithoroughly enjoyed your book.
Read a cover to cover.
So many things to cover, solet's just start at the top.
What's it to do list and why isit better than a to-do list?
Jamie Johnson (04:26):
To-do list and so you know when you say to know,
you know like magic it's done.
A to-do list we all usuallyhave them, you know it's a list
of all the things we want to getdone today or this week, and it
gets longer and Less isfinished than you think every
day.
So to-do list I consider to besomething that has been
(04:47):
disempowering in my world as aneducator, because the job itself
is not humanly possible to doall of the things in what?
Maybe six hours if you werelucky with students during a day
.
So a to-do list never gets done.
A to-do list is a celebration ofeverything that does get done
and it is very empowering tolook back on your day.
(05:09):
When you're feeling discouragedand Overwhelmed because maybe
you've got nothing done and youhave a whole pile of more to do.
You look back instead and juststart writing down everything
you did get done and Justkeeping it as simple as that.
Giving that a try, people areamazed at how much they actually
do and and accomplish in a dayand how much better they feel
(05:32):
looking at their day in that way, and that's a very simplified
version.
I mean we do have to.
We need to have goals andtargets for our day, but being
really intentional and carefulwith those not to create
something that's overwhelmingand discouraging and instead be
Encouraging to ourselves.
Eric Price (05:47):
So, jamie, you, you were obviously a stellar teacher
, your award-winning, for years.
So what?
What made you decide to kind ofpop out of the the system and
did you think that you were ableto have more influence from
outside the system than beingthe teacher?
Jamie Johnson (06:04):
It was really hard to decide to step out
because of my students.
I loved my students.
I worked with a very sensitivepopulation of kiddos and To make
that choice was difficult onthat end.
But, as you said, I had startedwinning some awards and there
was a moment when I was standingup receiving an award when to
(06:27):
get to that place?
I my job had been threatenedmultiple times by dissatisfied
administration and the choices Iwas making and trying to follow
what research and Evidence wassaying would impact my students.
I was getting attacked thewhole time.
It was making me miserable, itwas making me sick.
And Then, on the other hand,there's a small group of people
(06:50):
who are awarding me and I didn't.
I got up to receive the word anddidn't feel like I had the
voice to say All of this at thattime.
I just didn't have the energyor the voice to say that.
I got here by skipping oversome harmful mandates and
risking my job and I realized,as long as I keep doing things
(07:12):
really well in this system, it'sgoing to be twisted and turned
to say, look, she can do it,she's doing great, and then
we'll use that moral blackmailon other teachers saying that
you should be doing these thingswhen they don't feel like they
have the space or License to bethat creative, because they
can't risk their jobs or they'renot willing to to be able to
(07:34):
serve their students.
So I I knew in that moment, ifI stay in the system, I'm going
to make the system look good andit's going to perpetuate
something that's really Harmfulto my students at that time.
So I need to find another way.
Eric Price (07:45):
Yeah, and maybe even harmful to yourself, right?
Jamie Johnson (07:48):
Oh, it was definitely harmful to me.
Yes, yeah, but I wanted to findanother way to do those good
things and See if I could luresome people in.
Erich Bolz (07:57):
So Jamie, one of the things that really impresses me
about your book is it sort ofartfully moves from pedagogy to
neuroscience, to Self-care andthen, ultimately, policy
analysis.
What would those changes inpolicy be that would Implicate a
system that would enable us tohave healthy, happy teachers
every classroom.
Jamie Johnson (08:14):
So, on top of having healthy, happy teachers
having an impact on students, ithas an impact on ourselves as
well, the teachers as well.
I think that the biggest policychanges that I could see being
made is any policy that willcreate more time and autonomy
(08:34):
over time for the educator, andthat is based on research that I
read it was actually researchon research by Daniel Pink and
then I started practicing thatautonomy over time, handing that
over to my students and myselfas much as possible.
I watched what that did forpeople and just that one shift.
(08:57):
I mean there's, of course, amillion shifts like smaller
class sizes, which would give usmore time building more schools
, but if we just focus on thattime piece, how can we get
people to not be working?
What did you say?
54 hour weeks and get back tothat 37 hour week?
How can we?
What policies do we need tomake that happen?
That one thing according to thescience of well-being, all that
(09:23):
research out of Yale makes thebiggest impact on happiness in a
person Time affluence makesmore of an impact than monetary
affluence regarding happiness.
Erich Bolz (09:33):
So, jamie, I have a quick follow up.
So I completely in agreementwith what you say and when you
think about, in the world thatwe live in, that's, I think,
outsized, influenced bycorporate America.
It's all about money and thattrickles down into politics.
It's all about efficiency.
So we laud ourselves on givingthese public institutions the
least amount of resource theycan have to do the most amount
(09:55):
of job.
So how does that change whenthe rubber meets the road?
And we know it's all aboutmoney.
Jamie Johnson (10:00):
So how does it change?
I mean, that's it's a huge petpeeve of mine, actually, because
we make so many decisions basedon budget, not on students, and
when we put the budget beforethe kids, something is seriously
wrong and it's not going towork.
It just won't work.
It won't get the results wewant.
So, when the rubber meets theroad, how do we change policy,
(10:23):
knowing that that's the way itis?
I, you know, I don't know if Ihave the answer to that I think
it's just voices many voices arekey here and the voices of the
parents, the voices of thestudents pulling in, all of our
advocates to really talk abouthow that's impacting us when
we're choosing to put budgetover students.
Eric Price (10:45):
Jamie, I love that phrase time affluence.
I think that's fantastic, justbecause I've never actually been
monetarily affluent, so maybe Ican be rich on the time side.
But so you're talking to acouple of folks that have
stepped outside of education aswell and we continue to work
within it, and you've done thatsame process.
What advice would you have forthose folks that are still
(11:05):
within the system, they're stillteaching, they're still leading
?
How can they best affect changewithin that system and still
being in it?
Jamie Johnson (11:13):
One of the things that I did for myself, once I
had really dug into some of thatresearch, is to recognize okay,
so I need autonomy over my time.
And in education, the threetiers of motivation are mastery,
purpose and autonomy.
And in autonomy there's fourelements.
One of them is time.
In education, whether you'rethe teacher or the administrator
(11:35):
or the student, autonomy is notcommonly present.
We're telling kids what towrite, who to write with and how
to do it, and say with teachingwhat to teach who your team's
going to be, how to do it For me.
On the time piece, I decided howam I going to get autonomy over
time?
I spoke to my administrator, myprincipal, and shared with her
(11:58):
what I was trying and said Ithink if I could shift my day to
have Thursdays and Fridays, Ileave with the kids, I don't
stay late, I don't stay even tothe hour after contract hours,
because I'm gonna bank that timeearlier in the week and I'm
gonna try out this thing where Igo snowboarding in the
afternoons or go do somethingfun for myself and see how that
(12:21):
impacts my presence at school,my life, happiness and how I
show up for my students.
And she agreed and I also Isaid on our mornings, when we
have, we had used to have latestart mornings where you would
have prep time, some of thosemornings to plan and grade, and
it wasn't happening well atschool.
Those that sacred yeah, thatsacred time would be interrupted
(12:45):
by other people needing this orthat.
So I requested that I take thattime and do those things at
home.
And so she approved all of thatand it felt so good to have an
administrator believe in me, inwhat I was doing and give me
that choice.
And then it did impact my how Ishowed up at school, how my
(13:08):
brain functioned, because Iwasn't working past my
efficiency level.
So that was one thing that Ipushed inside the system with.
But the other thing is to notgive myself extra work and not
take my own time away byassigning extra assignments that
I don't need to be assigning toreally assess good student
(13:29):
learning Right.
Eric Price (13:30):
cause that workload is gonna be, you know, eternal
right If you don't limit it.
Jamie Johnson (13:33):
Yep, and we do add a lot more to our own plates
as well, a lot of the time so.
Erich Bolz (13:39):
So obviously you stepped out and, through your
book and other activities,become an advocate for change
inside of education.
What advice would you have forother educators to become
advocates for change?
Jamie Johnson (13:50):
Not everybody is willing to risk their job to try
something new, so I'm not.
I wanna make sure people knowI'm not suggesting that that's
the way to do things.
I think if you wanna makechange in a low risk way where
you're, you know you're notshaking the tree so much it just
get a team together and havemore than one voice.
(14:13):
Really find who your advocatesare.
Who are the people waving yourflag?
Is it?
Look outside the school as well.
You know.
Are their parents?
Are their organizations?
Are there other people who canhelp amplify your voice for
change?
And only pick one thing.
It doesn't have to be somethingbig, trying to change the whole
system at once.
(14:33):
You know again, we're addingmore work to our plate and it's
too much.
So picking your team if you'rean administrator in this work or
a leader in education, givepeople more autonomy to choose
their teams and choose whothey're working with.
Just because they're in a thirdgrade band does not necessarily
mean that's the band of peoplethey need to be learning and
(14:54):
studying and working with.
They might have a passion forfocusing on literacy or focusing
in on something else and shouldbe given some autonomy to find
their passion, find their teamand find their voice within that
team to affect powerful change.
Eric Price (15:11):
Well, if you need a quick break, maybe to pee, now's
the time.
We'll be back in 60 secondswith more from Jamie Johnson
right here on Outliers inEducation.
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That's effectivenessorg slashworkshops.
Eric Price (16:25):
Welcome back everyone.
We're chatting with the kickass teacher herself, Jamie
Johnson, author of the new bookTeach and Still have Time to
Peek.
Jamie, can you tell me, whenyou talk about this idea of
strong boundaries right Like Ithink, I 100% agree with you
what kinds of functional helpwould you give for teachers so
(16:45):
that they can have those strongboundaries?
Jamie Johnson (16:48):
Yeah, so I like to call them courageous
boundaries, because when we'resetting boundaries in a system,
that where status quo is just sodeeply entrenched, people don't
like us to have some of theboundaries we need to set.
So they are courageous Again.
One of the biggest boundariesthat's going to get you the most
(17:09):
change in your motivation andalertness and kindness and
patience at school is aroundtime.
So one of the ways to set aboundary around that with
yourself, because a boundary isfor you.
You have to respect it and honorit.
Whether other people do doesn'tmatter, because you're the one
holding your boundaries.
So setting an alarm was lifechanging for me, because I would
(17:34):
not honor my own time boundaryif I didn't have some way to be
accountable to it, and just thatlittle bell would help me go.
Okay, I've done enough.
This is plenty.
I'm stopping where I said Iwould stop.
It's time to go home or move onto the next thing.
So alarms are huge.
And then again I mentioned stopcreating extra work.
So boundaries around yourworkload can start with yourself
(17:55):
.
I worked with a teacher who shecalled.
She reached out for someone-on-one coaching and her
issue it was time and all thework, all the grading.
It was just overwhelming her.
So we went through and I lookedat the state requirements for a
grade.
To give a grade, I believe atthat time, you had to have eight
(18:18):
pieces of evidence to give thatgrade and she had over 40.
And I thought, well, why areyou doing that, not only to
yourself but to your students?
So I'm like let's cut it downto eight, and not eight big,
giant ones either, like eightawesome, meaningful pieces of
evidence and let's see whathappens there.
(18:40):
So just really looking at whatwork you're creating for
yourself.
That doesn't need to be there,jamie so much in the book.
Erich Bolz (18:49):
We're only gonna get to a fraction of it, obviously,
but could you share with us onestory or vignette that is
particularly poignant to youinside of the book?
That might resonate with ouraudience.
Jamie Johnson (19:00):
Just before COVID started.
I hold several thousandteachers and got about 500
responses, and the question Iasked was what is the most
painful part of teaching?
And I was expecting all kindsof things, but 90% came back
saying that parents were themost painful part of teaching.
(19:20):
So then I disaggregated thatdata further and kind of looked
at well okay, what is it aboutparents?
And only 11% of that 90% washelicopter parents.
And then it was split 50-50between parents that bully and
parents that just disappear.
You know that are totallyuninvolved.
(19:42):
So I convinced my colleagues todo home visits with me after
school.
And how in the world does thatcreate time for me?
And I did have to skip somemath lessons and things to make
time for that.
But I knew, according toresearch, that their math scores
would improve and they did if Icreated, built a relationship
with them.
So we did home visits and weagreed never to go alone.
(20:03):
And so I had one child left andI was feeling so guilty because
he was the last one and it wastaking forever to get a time
with my colleagues and theparent and bloody daddy, and so
I decided well, I'm gonna justdo this one alone.
And so I went to the home visitby myself and what the my
(20:24):
student was showing me around,showing me as Legos, he was all
excited.
And this particular parent didnot like school, had not had a
good experience in school,didn't like teachers and I had
known that.
And the dad says to me I'mgetting ready to go out the door
.
He leans back in this like lazyboy lounge chair and looks at
(20:44):
me in that like Lord of theManor style and says would you
like to taste my nuts?
They're salty.
And I didn't get it at first.
It took me a second until Ilooked over at my student's face
and saw his mortification.
And then I was like, oh my God,I can't believe this is
happening right now.
(21:05):
And I was flooded with like somuch sadness.
I mean it just broke my heartbecause we'd had such a good
home visit.
I was so excited to be buildinga relationship with this parent
who hated school, hated teachers, and I just I was kind and
looked at him and said no thanksand I gotta go and then went in
(21:26):
my car and cried and raged andthen he I ended up coming to
school a couple days later, likethe next week, and I could see.
He felt so guilty andembarrassed and apologized, and
our relationship from that pointon was totally different.
He was supportive.
He saw that I was there topartner in his child's success
(21:54):
and I wasn't representative ofwhat he had experienced in
school.
I wasn't there to hurt hischild in any way.
So it was an awful experience,but at the same time I have so
many of those stories whereparents who did not want to,
even literally would not speakto me, turning into people that
(22:15):
were on my team with their childand that saved me time because
they would help their childprogress at home in key ways
that really make all thedifference in student growth and
learning.
So it made my job easier in theend.
Eric Price (22:33):
Jamie, if you were going to talk to a practicing
teacher and you're going to say,hey, here are the top three
teacher hacks that I'm going togive you that will really help
you out the most, what threewould you give them?
Jamie Johnson (22:48):
I would, and we kind of talked a little bit
about these.
I think I'm going to reiterateset alarms If you have a task or
a project.
A good example my friend wassetting up a bulletin board and
she had an alarm set and whenthe tire went off she stopped
and there was one little pieceof border that hadn't been
stapled on yet and she left itthat way the entire quarter.
(23:11):
That was her time for the taskand I loved that.
I thought it was such a goodexample for me.
But set an alarm and what youget done is enough.
And then so that's one.
The second one I would say isstop creating extra work for
yourself.
So really look at the workyou're doing and keep the core
(23:33):
coolest, most awesome pieces andlet everything else go.
You don't need all of that tobe an amazing educator.
You are amazing.
More is not going to makethings better for you or your
students.
And then the third thing wouldbe giving up some of that work,
that homework or whatever extrawork to build in relationships,
(23:55):
because that is where the senseof purpose lies in what we do
with your.
You know, wherever you're at inthe world of education, those
relationships, if it's arelationship with your staff or
a relationship with yourstudents as educators.
Again, relationships with theparents, because that is what
I've understood to be the mostpainful part of teaching.
Those are the three hacks thatwill make the biggest difference
(24:17):
in your day and your quality oflife at work.
Eric Price (24:21):
Awesome.
Thank you, Jamie.
Well, now is the time that weget to tap into that awesome
intelligence of Bullsy here inhis summarization.
Bullsy, love to see you put astitch in this one.
What do you got for a wrap?
It was so wide ranging.
Erich Bolz (24:38):
I got a full page of notes.
I'm going to try to summarizehere, so I want to start at the
top.
I fell in love with the book.
It's pithy and fun writingstyle.
It was incredibly wellresearched.
Seldom and Hunter Pages have Iseen something that toggles so
effortlessly and yet discreetlyinside of the research with you
know shout outs to neuroscience,shout outs to self-care so many
(25:00):
things we didn't really covertoday that are inside of the
book.
We didn't talk a whole lotabout self-care, but what Pete
Paul has to say about self-careand one of our earlier episodes
is definitely worth arevisitation Great privilege,
pedagogy, hacks to improvepedagogy and policy advocacy,
just to say a few.
So I was absolutely bowled overby the content and the style of
(25:22):
the books of home run should beread by, I think, every teacher
and principal, maybe even moreimportantly, policymakers.
So all that to say, workingconditions for teachers are just
really tough.
Can you imagine a law officewhere lawyers were intentionally
not ingesting fluids so thatthey could get through their
workday?
I mean it really makes no sensein a professional context.
We've got to get away from thatscarcity mentality.
(25:42):
I love the tada.
It's something I should adoptmyself.
Track and celebrate youraccomplishments as opposed to
burdening yourself with tasksthat maybe you're just assigning
yourself was a big takeaway.
Kudos to sticking up for whatworks and not bending to
institutional pressure in thecontext of your career.
You know we need more talentedMaverick folks in the United
States across every profession.
(26:03):
Budgets before students that'llnever work.
I'm hoping that our earlierpodcast guest, reed Sarris, a
candidate for OSPIsuperintendent, happens to
listen to that and he strikes meas somebody who's going to beat
that policy drum as well.
Find your advocacy tribe.
Pick the one thing that you canwork on and change.
You can't fix everything.
I think that's really greatadvice.
We share that same advice atCEE when we're working with
(26:26):
staffs to unpack our data sets.
You know one of the one tothree things in here that you
could do that really already inthe context of your work.
That would make the greatestdifference.
So we use a lot of the sameadvice Any relationships over
homework.
We know at CEE thatrelationships are job one.
We believe that mantra to itscore, so hearing that over again
was super helpful, and Jamie'sstory about salty nuts may be
(26:48):
hard for some people to hear asfar as just the course language
and the discourse, but what itreally stood out to me was it's
a strong reminder that we shouldnever give up on the
possibility of a strongrelationship.
So inside of that salacioustitle is a moral lesson that we
could all benefit from or shouldbe reinforced Push outside of
(27:08):
your comfort zone.
That's really critical.
Getting to the three hacks Setboundaries.
Boy advice I don't follow verywell myself.
I love the bulletin boardborder example.
I mean having that visual ofit's okay not to have that
finished.
Super helpful that you areenough without assigning those
extra tasks.
I think we're.
I think we dipped our toe alittle bit into Brené Brown
(27:29):
territory there.
And above all and we would saythe same thing at CEE build
relationships.
It's job one.
And I would conclude by sayingmaybe the Beatles were right.
I think what Jamie and theBeatles are telling us is that
love is all you need.
Eric Price (27:42):
You're bringing tears to my eyes bowls.
Where can we find your book,jamie?
Jamie Johnson (27:46):
You can get it on Kindle or Amazon at
teachandstillhowtime2pcom.
Eric Price (27:51):
Okay, awesome, and also Facebook under this title.
I love kick ass teacher.
Jamie thanks for being on theshow.
You can find her book on Amazonand you can find her on
Facebook under kick ass teacher.
So, jamie, thanks again forbeing on the show.
It was awesome to have you.
Jamie Johnson (28:08):
Oh, I had a blast .
You guys are so much fun.
Thanks, you guys.
Erich Bolz (28:12):
And thanks to all of you for listening today.
You can find this episode andmore anywhere you listen to your
favorite podcasts or visit usonline at effectivenessorg.
Until next time, this has beenOutliers in Education.
Ad VO (28:27):
If you'd like to find out how to gather the data you need
to help drive positive changein your school or district, take
a moment to visit CEE, theCenter for Educational
Effectiveness, ateffectivenessorg.
Better data, better decisions,better schools.
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