February 6, 2025 • 29 mins
What if the darkest moments of your life could be transformed into a beacon of hope and change? Join us as we share the extraordinary stories of Mustafa-El Ajala and Chi-Town Taurus, who turned their incarceration into powerful tales of redemption. Mustafa's path to discovering Islam while in prison, inspired by Malcolm X, became a catalyst for profound personal growth and a lifelong commitment to legal aid and community service. Meanwhile, Chi-Town's journey highlights the healing power of music and friendship, particularly his connection with Mustafa, as a means to re-enter society and express his newfound purpose. These narratives challenge the notion of incarceration as solely punitive, revealing it as a potential springboard for personal and societal transformation.
The harsh reality of solitary confinement is laid bare through the eyes of those who have endured its isolating grip. We explore the dual nature of this experience—how it can forge inner strength while simultaneously inflicting deep psychological wounds. Personal accounts of prolonged isolation highlight its status as a violation of fundamental human rights, echoing the global consensus that such conditions constitute a form of torture. Our discussion shines a light on the systemic misuse of solitary confinement as a punitive tool, urging the need for reform. Through these stories, we confront this practice's urgent ethical questions and advocate for a justice system rooted in humanity and rehabilitation rather than retribution.
Emerging from the shadows of incarceration, Mustafa and Chi-Town Taurus exemplify resilience and transformation. Their challenges upon release were immense, yet their stories stand as testaments to the strength and wisdom born from adversity. We reflect on the diverse impacts of incarceration, acknowledging that while the experience breaks some, others harness it as a catalyst for profound personal growth and societal contribution. Their journeys offer inspiration and insight into the broader societal implications of supporting formerly incarcerated individuals. This episode is a tribute to their courage and the potential for positive change within ourselves and our communities.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up everybody.
This is your host D-Star herewith this is Mustafa El-Ajala.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah, and how's the?
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Shaitan to us.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
How y'all doing man.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah, I'm well
Excellent man Beautiful day.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So for the people that don't know you, mustafa,
can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yes, as I say, I'm Mustafa El-upelo area.
I've served a significantamount of time incarcerated,
picked up litigation skills,legal aid, legal assistant.
I still do that work today.
I've done work for pro selitigants, for myself and for
lawyers.
I'm out here still doing it andstill fighting and striving to
try to better myself, my family,my community and nation as a
whole.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Shantown Torres in the building.
I did it quite a few yearsmyself In the process of me
being incarcerated.
My first time I ended upmeeting this brother, mustafa.
Here I was actually transportedfrom the federal system to the
Supermax and processing mecoming home.
By the time I got to theSupermax I had about six and a
half years left to go home,ended up on the range with this
brother, we were alreadyfamiliar with each other through
(01:05):
the system.
In overall scheme of things, wehad a chance to, you know, have
our own powwow, be next door toeach other, build educationally
.
One of the things I seen inthis brother was somebody that I
knew for a fact that once Itouched down in any shape, form
or fashion, I might becontributing to some of the aims
and interests this brothermight have, and vice versa.
So that kept us connected overthe years.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
And just by your name , Chi-Town Tours, we can kind of
assume that you're from Chicago, right?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You know Chicago in terms of inner city kids,
Chicago as well as what you have, chicago with regards to the
families that migrate and getinto other communities as well.
And that was really the wholepremise for the Chi-Town Tours
thing, that my story was basedon me going to the prison system
at a young age.
I got to get back home.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm trying to get back
(01:53):
home and the story of Chi-TownTours is here's all the things I
went through during thatjourney.
In the midst of that journey, Iended up getting involved in
music, specifically while I wasincarcerated.
That was one of the things thatoccupied my time while I was in
the hole and then, by the time Igot to the supermax, it was on
those conditions that I startedthinking or taking a serious in
(02:14):
relationship to what I wouldwant to do when I get out and
following that path and thehurdles that came with just back
to society and reemerging thoseparticular hurdles became a
part of the overall, I would say, aesthetics with regard to my
brand and what I wanted to putout there, not only just simply
where I could be able to shinein the music industry, but to
the extent that otherindividuals, whether they've
(02:34):
been incarcerated or not.
Here's the hurdles you gothrough and I think you see it
in a much more raw form forpeople like us that might've
been locked down that long andnot privy to what you have on an
everyday basis in society, butyet and still take what we don't
have put it to use in the bestway that we possibly can and the
connections and the people andthe environments we were placing
(02:57):
ourselves in have placedourselves in in order to be able
to flourish in that kind of way.
You know what I'm saying.
To take it to the next level,Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Take us through your incarceration journey, Mustafa.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I was first incarcerated when I was 19 years
old, adult incarceration.
Well, correction, I have torewind the tape on that a little
bit as well too.
My first incarceration as anadult was in the Lake County
Jail, illinois.
So I was working down there andcaught a case down there.
It was a theft case, a grandlarceny.
I was released, came back toWisconsin, got incarcerated when
(03:28):
I was 19.
It was an armed robbery.
I spent about three years inprison.
I read the book, theautobiography of Malcolm X, and
that's one of the things thatfirst got me seriously on the
trajectory to Islam.
So I took my shahada.
That's when you make thetestimony that you bear witness
(03:50):
that there is only one creator.
That is, I bear witness thatthere is no God but Allah and
the Prophet Muhammad is hisservant and messenger.
So I took my shahada.
I was Muslim.
I reverted to Islam, as somepeople like to say, because
we're born on the future, we allborn Muslim and so.
But I still was young and stillhad a lot of street left in me.
So when you become Muslim or Iwould assume any type of faith
(04:13):
and you got that much ofnegative living in you, you know
it's not washed out overnight.
You know it's a process, justlike it was a process, you know,
absorbing it in the first place.
You know you came out in babysteps, jumped off the porch,
started getting into the street.
You know you didn't becomestreet smart overnight.
You know it's something thatwas developed.
And likewise, you knowrelearning or learning another
(04:37):
way is something that'sdeveloped too.
So, as a result of that, when Iwas released from prison after
my first incarceration, I made adecision that I was going to go
back to the street because Iwasn't.
One thing I didn't want to bewas a hypocrite.
So I didn't want to say youknow I'm a Muslim, but I know
I'm Muslim, and then I'm stillselling drugs, I'm Muslim, I'm
still doing this, that and theother.
(04:57):
I had more respect for Islamthan that, and so the choices I
made landed me back in prisonfor a second incarceration which
winded up being 30 years and ahalf.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And here I am today.
You say here I am today.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, I just went to prison for 30 years.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Here I am today.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
It's a lot of you on that ball man.
I mean, I'm basically saying,you know, I did 30 years and I'm
here now.
You know.
I mean I survived by the graceof Allah, you know, and it
actually wound up being and somepeople might be surprised to
hear this it wound up being agood thing.
Not that I spent 30 years inprison, but Allah took that time
to fast me into the person I amtoday, which is a better
version of any person I've everbeen before.
(05:44):
You know what I'm saying.
It's still me, the original methat my parents raised me to be.
My siblings knew that I was amore fortified way.
I kind of had that good natureas a child, by the grace of
Allah.
You know what I mean.
So I was compassionate, I wasgenerous, I was giving.
That's the way Allah made me,and all praise be to him.
You know, not to me.
(06:05):
You know I got more seriousabout the deen, more serious
about Islam, and one thing thatyou're taught in Islam from the
Prophet Muhammad peace andblessings be upon him is that
you seek that knowledge from thecradle to the grave.
That's one thing that you willknow about Muslim, that you're
going to find one.
If he's sincere, he's going tobe seeking knowledge, or her for
that matter.
(06:29):
So one of the trade skills Ipicked up, one of the forms of
knowledge I picked up, was tofight, and how to fight through
the legal system, the samesystem that landed me in prison.
So I learned that skill.
One of the brothers I mentionedbefore that was instrumental in
me learning the law was abrother named Hannibal Leon Irby
, and uh, I can tell you aboutthat story, uh, another time,
how we met, but we actually metthrough me, the short version of
(06:53):
it uh, catching another casewhile in prison, a drug case.
So when I came to prison, Ididn't come in with an idea to
do better.
I came in with an idea that,okay, this is what it is, and
you know, I'm going to live life, I'm going to do me, as they
say nowadays, right, and I wastrying to get money to fight the
case even more.
And I wind up catching a drugcase in War Pond Correction
(07:16):
Institution in 1995, and thatlanded me in solitary
confinement.
And in solitary confinement,which is really something that's
designed to destroy you and itdoes destroy a lot of men.
I know men that came tosolitary confinement sane and
left out insane.
But it can also make youstronger.
It can also make you learn justhow much you can withstand and
(07:39):
then also excel while you'rewithstanding it.
You know physically and thebrother next to me, shottown
Torres, this is some.
It became like an obsession.
That's why you see a lot ofguys in solitary confinement.
They're actually in really goodshape because we work out all
day, we read and study all dayand we challenge each other.
We play chess all day.
You know what I mean.
It's all about mental andphysical strength and then also,
(08:02):
for a person like me, spiritualstrength.
So when you got those threethings combined mental, physical
and spiritual strength nowyou're a threat for a whole
other reason.
Not because you're going tosell some drugs if we release
you from solitary confinement,not because you're going to
assault staff or kick off a gangwar.
Now we're worried about youputting some of that same mess
(08:25):
you just learned in your head,in your head, into the head of
the youth that's going to goback into society and now
challenge us on a whole notherlevel.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So what are some of the things that you learned in
solitary and solitaryconfinement I can't say solitary
, you just said it.
What are some of the thingsthat you learned in solitary
confinement that you felt wasthe most impactful, that you
still carry to this day?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Knowing your strength , because I mean you're going to
have moments especially if youdo, you know, decades in
solitary confinement, which issomething I've done.
I've done more than eight and ahalf years straight in solitary
confinement, Actually how muchtime have you done in solitary
confinement?
It's more than 16 years, morethan 16 years in solitary
confinement.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's more than 16 years, more than 16 years in
solitary confinement.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It's more than 16 years.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So roughly about 17, 16 and a half.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Well, let's do the math Two years, another almost
seven years, so now we're atabout eight years and a half.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And then eight and a half years.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Almost seven, not quite seven.
Then another eight years andapproximately a half, so that's
17.
And then, even when theyreleased me from solitary
confinement, I still was insuper max.
They were calling the generalpopulation, but it was still a
form of solitary confinement.
You were only getting let outto jail for two hours a day,
five days a week.
So on Saturday and Sunday youwere still in the cell 24 hours
(09:48):
a day.
So by federal definition thatwas still solitary confinement.
So we can actually extend thateight and a half years to like
11 years, because I had spentthe other remainder of that time
in what was supposed to be ingeneral population, but it still
was really solitary confinement.
You was in the cell 22 hours,five days a week and 24 hours on
(10:09):
the weekend.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's a long time.
You know mentally to be thatstrong to come out and still
have a brain to call upon.
You know memories or just howto interact with people, period.
You know what I'm saying.
It's a whole different world.
Some people say the best andworst cellie that they ever had
(10:30):
was themselves.
That's the best cellie you canhave, and the worst cellie that
you can have was yourself.
Because you can't deal withyourself, man, you ain't going
to be able to deal with nobody.
Would you guys concur with that?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yes, I concur, that's one of the reasons why you have
guys that have those mentalbreakdowns, because they're
dealing with demons that theydon't want to face.
And if you do that type of timethat I've done in solitary
confinement and this brothernext to me, shoutown Torres, has
done at some point in thatstretch other people witness the
same thing and I'll let himcomment whether or not he ever
witnessed it.
(11:00):
But it's actually like you'llsee the walls kind of caving in.
Now you know the walls are notmoving, but it seems like
there's some contraction goingon.
And when that starts to happen,okay, now you got to get up and
shake some stuff off.
You know, you got to read, yougot to work out, and if you're
doing that already, okay, well,let me find something else to do
.
Hey, out of that hall for me,let's play some chess.
But at some point I think it'sgoing to happen if you spend a
(11:23):
long enough time in solitaryconfinement To kind of, you know
, put it in contrast, the firsttime I did solitary confinement
time, it was only, it wasn'teven a month.
I was younger and that monthseemed like, hey, this is too
long to have anybody in solitaryconfinement, literally.
I know I wound up doing years,but it was something that you
had to adjust to and adapt andyou're capable of doing it.
(11:47):
But some people aren't.
But I believe most people are.
You know, some people just havecertain trauma.
In certain ways they're wired.
It's just not for them and it'snot for any human being period.
But Some people are capable ofadapting.
I was fortunate to be one ofthose that was able to adapt,
use it as a form, as a period ofgrowth for me.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, I think.
Well before you start, how longdid you do in solitary
confinement?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I did four years, two months and four days the first
time and then the Supermax.
At that time it wasn't open, soSupermax at that time was 100
percent lockdown.
So that was six years, fivemonths and six days.
All total roughly almost 11years.
But I was getting at the factthat it has to be some sort of a
(12:34):
status of epic proportion andgreat magnitude when you have
not only the US courts, even theUnited Nations having
declarations made about it andthe uses and how you can go
about using it right To theextent that you know the CIA and
FBI and federal governmentsaround the world are forbidden
(12:55):
on how they use this, how longyou can be in there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because theduration, whether you're talking
about 15 days, 30 days, theduration for a human being to be
deprived of these particularthings, especially when you
think about and this brothercould attest to that in probably
much more crisp terms but oneof the things that the law is
designed to address is whetheror not your human rights is
(13:17):
being violated.
Where do these human rightscome from?
These human rights don't comefrom another human being.
These are the human rights thatcome from the most high right,
and what's going on when you'resitting in a man-made
contraption is affecting how youare supposed to naturally
function as a human being.
So, whether you're talkingabout a person, the air, your
access to sunlight, your accessto all the particular things
(13:40):
that, as a human being, you arerequired to have to survive
right Now, you take it from acourt perspective.
From a court perspective, we'replacing you in incarceration
for what you've done wrong, butto the extent that what you've
done wrong, we're not takingaway your life.
You haven't forfeited that, andthat's what the prison system
(14:03):
is designed to do.
It's supposed to say that well,you've gotten into this bit of
trouble, we're going to removeyou from society because of this
trouble, but to go to theextent where I'm going to start
depriving you of natural humanprocesses.
I'm going to a certain extent,that is what is considered to be
tortured If it's applied in aadministrative fashion by any
(14:26):
particular government entity inthat way.
So you know, seeing people inthat particular environment,
it's not just that those peopleare going through the process of
the walls caving in.
They are actually feeling thephysical and physiological,
neurological and mental effects,possibly even in spiritual
effect.
That's not calculated a lot oftimes.
(14:47):
But all of these particulareffects as a human being are
being targeted, and in thisparticular sense they're being
targeted in many cases unjustly,unlawfully, unconstitutionally.
And who goes aboutadministering why you are in
that cell?
This brother spoke about beingin that cell and being under
attack because he's developedthis newfound litigation.
(15:11):
It was before I did this.
I did this wrong thing before.
Right, here's a rule that Ishouldn't violate.
Ok, we all come to theagreement that you, as the
administration, you now sayingthat for that violation I get to
sit in this cell.
But now you've gone beyond thatbecause I'm not violating the
law anymore.
In fact, one of the ideas thatI would bring to this brother,
his other extent in Supermaxcame from writing news articles
(15:35):
about what's going wrong in thesystem.
So you're not placing me inwhat they're classifying as
torturous situations anymorebecause I did something wrong.
This isn't a punishment status.
You see what I'm saying.
You've taken and gone beyondthe fact that I might've done
something wrong.
You said well, I got thiscontraption that I know for a
fact has been declared by mygovernment or government
(15:57):
entities that, however I usethis, it can be utilized as a
harmful tool.
And I'm using, I'm nowweaponizing something that's
already declared by entity likethe United States Supreme Court
or the United Nations has alldeclared in Geneva, accords and
things of that magnitude.
Right, that if you use thisstatus, status in this
(16:19):
particular method, in thisparticular fashion, we know that
these are the type of harmsthat it should pose to a person.
Right, and we are forbiddingyou from doing that, even under
conditions where this person hasgotten themselves in some
trouble.
But now you've gone beyond thatand said I know that you as a
court or you as a legal entity,said or forbid us from doing
(16:40):
that.
And not only am I going to gobeyond that, I'm going to use
this when I don't feel like,well, this person here is bowing
down to my dominion.
I don't want him to learn thelaw.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Him learning the law poses a threat to my system and
my orderly running of thingslike that and that goes all the
way back to even slavery days,when they were saying black
people get in trouble just foreven reading.
You know what I mean.
So it's deeper than that andit's just a horrible, horrible
form of control.
You know, just to call it whatit is torture.
So I guess when you takesomething away, you have to
(17:12):
replace it with something right?
So what would be thealternative to segregation?
As far as if there is nosegregation, if we don't have
that form of punishment, whatwould be the form of punishment
in prison?
What would deter one inmatefrom harming another inmate?
If they didn't have thatdeterrent, what would you put in
place?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
of that.
That's an interesting word,deterrent because one of the
problems is that there's nodeterrent for abuse of power.
So you have correctionalofficers.
Just think about it.
If you had the ability that anytime somebody upset you, you
could exact punishment withoutany repercussions to you you
made me mad.
I can slap you, I can throw youaway for a year and never have
(17:55):
to see you again.
And so, even if I violate thelaw, there's no money out of my
pocket.
If you file a lawsuit, I don'thave to pay it.
I'm not losing my job.
I'm not losing my job.
I'm not getting demoted.
In many cases I'm gettingpromoted.
There's no deterrent.
There's every incentive for acorrectional officer to abuse
his power because they'reprotected and they will form
(18:17):
ranks around that officer, theywill go to bat for him and at
the end of the day because I'velitigated many cases, settled
many cases and the AAG, theassistant attorney general, who
was actually representing theDOC at the time, almost pretty
much saying so many words Look,I have to represent them.
I can't do nothing about it.
(18:37):
We can offer you some money.
Can't take back what happened,but that's one of the problems.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And I understand that 100 percent.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
But that's one of the problems.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And I understand that 100%.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Going back to the question, yeah, yeah, a couple
of years ago I was in theVirginia Department of
Correction.
The punishment has to beproportionate.
It's not that there should beno deterrent, but it has to be
proportionate.
An example in that system youwould not spend 30 days in
solitary confinement.
The most you would probablyspend is 15 days.
I'm talking about it's beenfights on the yard where it's
(19:06):
like.
I'm talking about the prisonrecreation yard, where it's like
six guys on one, but it'susually people that are dealing
with their own.
You know, whether you areLatino, whether you are European
, aryan nation groups, whatever,you know different groups there
, whether you're Muslim you knowwhat I'm saying whether you're
black, crip, blood, whatever.
In most cases it's people thatdeal with their own and don't
(19:26):
cross that line in terms ofattacking or dealing or crossing
the line with other groups orpeople.
So what you have, just like inany society, prison is just a
small.
It's a microcosm of the majorsociety.
Right, you're going to regulatesociety yourself.
You don't need the police atyour doorstep following you
everywhere you go, telling youwhat and what not to do.
(19:47):
We are human beings, we aresocial people, so certain things
are going to take place.
It's not going to be chaos,just like it's not total chaos
in society.
But one thing is that it has tobe proportionate.
So in that system where youdon't spend more than 15 days or
so in solitary confinement, ifyou spend up to 30 days, there's
actually a program.
(20:07):
When I was there it was calleda STAR program, and so the
program is if you spend 30 daysin solitary confinement, you
take this program and you candecide to go to any other prison
in that system that's at thatsame level you're at.
So if you're a medium custody,it can be another medium prison,
if you're a maximum custody, itcould be another maximum prison
(20:28):
and so on and so forth.
But that just goes to show you.
When I told him how much time Iserved in solitary confinement
in Wisconsin, if you saw thelook on their face, it's like
what?
It was unbelievable.
I was like, yeah, man, I saidin Wisconsin you do years in
solitary confinement, 30 days.
You do that just on TLU,temporary lockup, while they're
(20:50):
investigating whether or notthey're going to give you a
charge.
So that's the difference, man,wisconsin.
And in the system where youdon't have a lot of violent
crime don't get me wrong.
A person can get killed in theWisconsin system just as
anywhere else.
Jeffrey Dahmer an example.
It happens, but it's notprevalent.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I got to push back on you because I don't feel like
that.
You answered my question.
I mean, you answered it, but Iguess's not the the answer that
I was looking for.
Like I said, what would be thealternative to solitary
confinement, because that's whatI'm thinking that the listeners
is going to be like.
Okay, I'm with you, it ispunishment, it is torture,
(21:30):
because I mean it is, it hasbeen classified as that and it
has been weaponized as that.
If we can't use that, what dowe put in place of that as
punishment or deterrent?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well, there's a bunch of things already in place.
Maybe I'll elaborate a littlebit.
One they restrict yourvisitation so you can get denied
visits for 30 days or more.
You can have a loss ofelectronics.
One thing guys do when they'reincarcerated because you're away
from society they have tablets.
Now, I mean you don't haveinternet access, but you do have
the ability to send emails, tolook certain things up, like
(22:05):
K-Lite, khan Academy.
I think they're bringing thatin Wisconsin as well.
I know they have it in someother systems, including
Virginia Telephone.
They're starting to let guysuse the telephone on their
tablets.
So basically they have a cellphone without Internet access.
So that's one of the means ofcommunicating and I think now
they're also going to startletting them have visits on the
tablet.
It's about a little 7-inchtablet.
So those are the type of thingsthat can be done and that's
(22:28):
already being done.
But it seems in Wisconsin theygo straight from 0 to 60 instead
of 0 to maybe 5, 10, 15, 20miles an hour.
So they go straight zero to 60,throw you in the hole for a
whole year for a little bit ofnothing.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Okay, Now I'm going to challenge you guys again On
my program.
I always like to ask thisquestion what do you feel that
the DOC is doing right?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
I'll get to that.
I wanted to add in to what adeter know a deterrent would be
in terms of solitary confinement.
His answer was really similarto what I was thinking.
You do realize, on a federallevel you don't do more than 30
days unless it's somethingmassive, and that's what really
we're getting at.
Is that a lot of the thingsthat you're talking about in
(23:13):
prison is tantamount to atraffic ticket.
So should a person do 360 daysin solitary confinement for a
traffic ticket, right?
Should a person do 360 days insolitary confinement because he
cussed out a prison guard?
Should a person do 365 days?
I'll give you an exact example.
There's this guy that used to bein prison.
(23:35):
When I came back from the supersupermassive, they called him
Godfather.
He was in.
I think it was in Oshkosh orKettle Moran.
He's one of them guys thatliked to smoke cigarettes and he
caught a prison guard slipping.
Prison guard had a cigarette.
Instead of putting thecigarette all the way out, he
dropped it in the ashtray andwent and turned his back.
Well, this guy's figured.
Well, it's already lit, I ain'teven got to get no light.
So he went and got thecigarette and they caught him on
(23:56):
camera with the cigarette, buthe wanted to take a puff.
So now he took off running.
He took off running to finishthe little butt.
How long do you think he shouldbe in solitary confinement for a
cigarette as a grown man, at 30, 40 years old?
(24:28):
And we might say, well, thatdisrupted the institution.
Did that disrupt theinstitution enough for this guy
to be sitting in solitaryconfinement for the next four or
five years, be dumped off intosociety without all the proper
addressing of his treatment inthis 9-3rd, to the point where
now he's even more debilitatedthan he was when he did this
particular act.
And that's commonplace.
More commonplace that if youactually did the investigation
on what people are going tosolitary confinement for, you
will find that most people arenot going to solitary
confinement for any kind ofviolent activity.
So when you put it in thatcontext, the deterrent would be
is the system putting in placesomething, as he was saying,
(24:49):
that actually addresses theoffense?
Because if you're not, thenguess what?
If I'm a person faced with theprospect that you're going to
condemn me for a year, two years, three years for what I did,
I'm liable to be even moreviolent Because you're going to
harm me.
You see what I'm saying, andthis is proven in psychology.
Psychiatrists around thecountry, top psychiatrists,
(25:10):
neurologists around the worldwould tell you that the human
being faced with certainprospects, fight or flight.
They're going to choose oneanother, right.
So there's already a percentageof people that, regardless of
what our deterrent is, they'regoing to fight regardless
Because you put them in thatposition of feeling like, well,
I got nothing to lose.
These individuals are havingall sorts of number of
(25:32):
breakdowns emotionally,life-wise, lifetime crisis,
right.
And, as opposed to ever havingthe appropriate things in place
to address what they're goingthrough, we'll lock them up.
And then, when they're lockedup, are they being provided with
the appropriate treatment sothat they can address whatever
the original problem was?
(25:54):
And if they're not, well, lockthem up even more.
So it's hard to come up with adeterrent.
If you're saying that theadministration of the process of
being solitary is willy-nilly,as opposed to across the board,
I can attest to.
I've been in the federal system.
In the federal system, it's notgoing to matter if you had an
assault Now.
If that assault is so egregiousthat you don't know how to
(26:16):
conduct yourself, we got placesfor you, right?
There's a reason you getescalated up to the ADX, but I
shouldn't be subject to ADXtreatment in this prison over
here.
This is supposed to be a mediumprison.
How are you using solitaryconfinement in a medium prison,
a regular maximum securityprison, and saying that, well, I
can lock you up there and I canput these allegations on you,
(26:39):
and I can as a person, as ahuman being, you know what I'm
thought that you, because ofthis now, and third, and by the
time you come up out of solitaryconfinement, this person don't
make captain, you don't makemore debilitating steps in life,
a more of a separation fromyour family, community, more
separation, because a lot ofthese people keep in mind that
we're talking abouthypothetically, but actuality.
(26:59):
Most of these people are comingback to society.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I think this is over 80% of people that's in prison
will one day come home.
And I always tell people thisI'm like yo.
These people are your neighbors, these are people's kids.
Go to school with your kids.
They go to the same libraries,they listen to the same music.
They're going to shop at thesame grocery stores.
You know, when you go toSummerfest, they'll be there.
When you go to the state fair,those kids, those same kids,
(27:24):
will be there.
You know what I'm saying.
And if they don't have theproper upbringing, they don't
have a father in their home orthey don't have a mother, it
affects them.
So this is it's not just ourcommunity, it's our community,
all of us.
You know what I'm saying.
So we got to do right byeverybody, not just, you know,
do right by some.
(27:45):
You know what I'm saying and wecan't forget the people that's
locked up and that's in prisonbecause, like I said, they're
still a part of our community,because they will be home one
day.
You guys got out and went right, but we know everybody don't go
out and go right.
Some people go out and go left.
You know what I'm saying.
So you guys are really blessedthat you did that much time and
(28:07):
still kept your mind.
A lot of people that do thattype of time.
They don't come out mentallythe same.
You know what I mean.
They don't.
It seemed like you guys, youknow, even said you know you
came out sharper, you feel thatyou're wiser.
It feels like you learned fromthat situation.
It actually made you strong.
It breaks some people and somepeople are never the same and I
(28:30):
talked to a lot of people youknow in that situation and
that's came back from thatsituation and sometimes they
don't come back the same.
You know it didn't do what itdid for y'all.
You know what I'm saying.
So really y'all need to beproud of yourselves.
I really appreciate both of youbrothers being here.
Man, seriously, thank you guys.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So much Thank you for having us brother man.
It's my pleasure, my honor oh.
What's up everybody.
This is your host D-Star herewith this is Mustafa El-Ajala.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah, and how's the?
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Shaitan to us.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
How y'all doing man.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah, I'm well
Excellent man Beautiful day.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So for the people that don't know you, mustafa,
can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yes, as I say, I'm Mustafa El-upelo area.
I've served a significantamount of time incarcerated,
picked up litigation skills,legal aid, legal assistant.
I still do that work today.
I've done work for pro selitigants, for myself and for
lawyers.
I'm out here still doing it andstill fighting and striving to
try to better myself, my family,my community and nation as a
whole.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Shantown Torres in the building.
I did it quite a few yearsmyself In the process of me
being incarcerated.
My first time I ended upmeeting this brother, mustafa.
Here I was actually transportedfrom the federal system to the
Supermax and processing mecoming home.
By the time I got to theSupermax I had about six and a
half years left to go home,ended up on the range with this
brother, we were alreadyfamiliar with each other through
(01:05):
the system.
In overall scheme of things, wehad a chance to, you know, have
our own powwow, be next door toeach other, build educationally
.
One of the things I seen inthis brother was somebody that I
knew for a fact that once Itouched down in any shape, form
or fashion, I might becontributing to some of the aims
and interests this brothermight have, and vice versa.
So that kept us connected overthe years.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
And just by your name , Chi-Town Tours, we can kind of
assume that you're from Chicago, right?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You know Chicago in terms of inner city kids,
Chicago as well as what you have, chicago with regards to the
families that migrate and getinto other communities as well.
And that was really the wholepremise for the Chi-Town Tours
thing, that my story was basedon me going to the prison system
at a young age.
I got to get back home.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm trying to get back
(01:53):
home and the story of Chi-TownTours is here's all the things I
went through during thatjourney.
In the midst of that journey, Iended up getting involved in
music, specifically while I wasincarcerated.
That was one of the things thatoccupied my time while I was in
the hole and then, by the time Igot to the supermax, it was on
those conditions that I startedthinking or taking a serious in
(02:14):
relationship to what I wouldwant to do when I get out and
following that path and thehurdles that came with just back
to society and reemerging thoseparticular hurdles became a
part of the overall, I would say, aesthetics with regard to my
brand and what I wanted to putout there, not only just simply
where I could be able to shinein the music industry, but to
the extent that otherindividuals, whether they've
(02:34):
been incarcerated or not.
Here's the hurdles you gothrough and I think you see it
in a much more raw form forpeople like us that might've
been locked down that long andnot privy to what you have on an
everyday basis in society, butyet and still take what we don't
have put it to use in the bestway that we possibly can and the
connections and the people andthe environments we were placing
(02:57):
ourselves in have placedourselves in in order to be able
to flourish in that kind of way.
You know what I'm saying.
To take it to the next level,Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Take us through your incarceration journey, Mustafa.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I was first incarcerated when I was 19 years
old, adult incarceration.
Well, correction, I have torewind the tape on that a little
bit as well too.
My first incarceration as anadult was in the Lake County
Jail, illinois.
So I was working down there andcaught a case down there.
It was a theft case, a grandlarceny.
I was released, came back toWisconsin, got incarcerated when
(03:28):
I was 19.
It was an armed robbery.
I spent about three years inprison.
I read the book, theautobiography of Malcolm X, and
that's one of the things thatfirst got me seriously on the
trajectory to Islam.
So I took my shahada.
That's when you make thetestimony that you bear witness
(03:50):
that there is only one creator.
That is, I bear witness thatthere is no God but Allah and
the Prophet Muhammad is hisservant and messenger.
So I took my shahada.
I was Muslim.
I reverted to Islam, as somepeople like to say, because
we're born on the future, we allborn Muslim and so.
But I still was young and stillhad a lot of street left in me.
So when you become Muslim or Iwould assume any type of faith
(04:13):
and you got that much ofnegative living in you, you know
it's not washed out overnight.
You know it's a process, justlike it was a process, you know,
absorbing it in the first place.
You know you came out in babysteps, jumped off the porch,
started getting into the street.
You know you didn't becomestreet smart overnight.
You know it's something thatwas developed.
And likewise, you knowrelearning or learning another
(04:37):
way is something that'sdeveloped too.
So, as a result of that, when Iwas released from prison after
my first incarceration, I made adecision that I was going to go
back to the street because Iwasn't.
One thing I didn't want to bewas a hypocrite.
So I didn't want to say youknow I'm a Muslim, but I know
I'm Muslim, and then I'm stillselling drugs, I'm Muslim, I'm
still doing this, that and theother.
(04:57):
I had more respect for Islamthan that, and so the choices I
made landed me back in prisonfor a second incarceration which
winded up being 30 years and ahalf.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And here I am today.
You say here I am today.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, I just went to prison for 30 years.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Here I am today.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
It's a lot of you on that ball man.
I mean, I'm basically saying,you know, I did 30 years and I'm
here now.
You know.
I mean I survived by the graceof Allah, you know, and it
actually wound up being and somepeople might be surprised to
hear this it wound up being agood thing.
Not that I spent 30 years inprison, but Allah took that time
to fast me into the person I amtoday, which is a better
version of any person I've everbeen before.
(05:44):
You know what I'm saying.
It's still me, the original methat my parents raised me to be.
My siblings knew that I was amore fortified way.
I kind of had that good natureas a child, by the grace of
Allah.
You know what I mean.
So I was compassionate, I wasgenerous, I was giving.
That's the way Allah made me,and all praise be to him.
You know, not to me.
(06:05):
You know I got more seriousabout the deen, more serious
about Islam, and one thing thatyou're taught in Islam from the
Prophet Muhammad peace andblessings be upon him is that
you seek that knowledge from thecradle to the grave.
That's one thing that you willknow about Muslim, that you're
going to find one.
If he's sincere, he's going tobe seeking knowledge, or her for
that matter.
(06:29):
So one of the trade skills Ipicked up, one of the forms of
knowledge I picked up, was tofight, and how to fight through
the legal system, the samesystem that landed me in prison.
So I learned that skill.
One of the brothers I mentionedbefore that was instrumental in
me learning the law was abrother named Hannibal Leon Irby
, and uh, I can tell you aboutthat story, uh, another time,
how we met, but we actually metthrough me, the short version of
(06:53):
it uh, catching another casewhile in prison, a drug case.
So when I came to prison, Ididn't come in with an idea to
do better.
I came in with an idea that,okay, this is what it is, and
you know, I'm going to live life, I'm going to do me, as they
say nowadays, right, and I wastrying to get money to fight the
case even more.
And I wind up catching a drugcase in War Pond Correction
(07:16):
Institution in 1995, and thatlanded me in solitary
confinement.
And in solitary confinement,which is really something that's
designed to destroy you and itdoes destroy a lot of men.
I know men that came tosolitary confinement sane and
left out insane.
But it can also make youstronger.
It can also make you learn justhow much you can withstand and
(07:39):
then also excel while you'rewithstanding it.
You know physically and thebrother next to me, shottown
Torres, this is some.
It became like an obsession.
That's why you see a lot ofguys in solitary confinement.
They're actually in really goodshape because we work out all
day, we read and study all dayand we challenge each other.
We play chess all day.
You know what I mean.
It's all about mental andphysical strength and then also,
(08:02):
for a person like me, spiritualstrength.
So when you got those threethings combined mental, physical
and spiritual strength nowyou're a threat for a whole
other reason.
Not because you're going tosell some drugs if we release
you from solitary confinement,not because you're going to
assault staff or kick off a gangwar.
Now we're worried about youputting some of that same mess
(08:25):
you just learned in your head,in your head, into the head of
the youth that's going to goback into society and now
challenge us on a whole notherlevel.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So what are some of the things that you learned in
solitary and solitaryconfinement I can't say solitary
, you just said it.
What are some of the thingsthat you learned in solitary
confinement that you felt wasthe most impactful, that you
still carry to this day?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Knowing your strength , because I mean you're going to
have moments especially if youdo, you know, decades in
solitary confinement, which issomething I've done.
I've done more than eight and ahalf years straight in solitary
confinement, Actually how muchtime have you done in solitary
confinement?
It's more than 16 years, morethan 16 years in solitary
confinement.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's more than 16 years, more than 16 years in
solitary confinement.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It's more than 16 years.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So roughly about 17, 16 and a half.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Well, let's do the math Two years, another almost
seven years, so now we're atabout eight years and a half.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And then eight and a half years.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Almost seven, not quite seven.
Then another eight years andapproximately a half, so that's
17.
And then, even when theyreleased me from solitary
confinement, I still was insuper max.
They were calling the generalpopulation, but it was still a
form of solitary confinement.
You were only getting let outto jail for two hours a day,
five days a week.
So on Saturday and Sunday youwere still in the cell 24 hours
(09:48):
a day.
So by federal definition thatwas still solitary confinement.
So we can actually extend thateight and a half years to like
11 years, because I had spentthe other remainder of that time
in what was supposed to be ingeneral population, but it still
was really solitary confinement.
You was in the cell 22 hours,five days a week and 24 hours on
(10:09):
the weekend.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's a long time.
You know mentally to be thatstrong to come out and still
have a brain to call upon.
You know memories or just howto interact with people, period.
You know what I'm saying.
It's a whole different world.
Some people say the best andworst cellie that they ever had
(10:30):
was themselves.
That's the best cellie you canhave, and the worst cellie that
you can have was yourself.
Because you can't deal withyourself, man, you ain't going
to be able to deal with nobody.
Would you guys concur with that?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yes, I concur, that's one of the reasons why you have
guys that have those mentalbreakdowns, because they're
dealing with demons that theydon't want to face.
And if you do that type of timethat I've done in solitary
confinement and this brothernext to me, shoutown Torres, has
done at some point in thatstretch other people witness the
same thing and I'll let himcomment whether or not he ever
witnessed it.
(11:00):
But it's actually like you'llsee the walls kind of caving in.
Now you know the walls are notmoving, but it seems like
there's some contraction goingon.
And when that starts to happen,okay, now you got to get up and
shake some stuff off.
You know, you got to read, yougot to work out, and if you're
doing that already, okay, well,let me find something else to do
.
Hey, out of that hall for me,let's play some chess.
But at some point I think it'sgoing to happen if you spend a
(11:23):
long enough time in solitaryconfinement To kind of, you know
, put it in contrast, the firsttime I did solitary confinement
time, it was only, it wasn'teven a month.
I was younger and that monthseemed like, hey, this is too
long to have anybody in solitaryconfinement, literally.
I know I wound up doing years,but it was something that you
had to adjust to and adapt andyou're capable of doing it.
(11:47):
But some people aren't.
But I believe most people are.
You know, some people just havecertain trauma.
In certain ways they're wired.
It's just not for them and it'snot for any human being period.
But Some people are capable ofadapting.
I was fortunate to be one ofthose that was able to adapt,
use it as a form, as a period ofgrowth for me.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, I think.
Well before you start, how longdid you do in solitary
confinement?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I did four years, two months and four days the first
time and then the Supermax.
At that time it wasn't open, soSupermax at that time was 100
percent lockdown.
So that was six years, fivemonths and six days.
All total roughly almost 11years.
But I was getting at the factthat it has to be some sort of a
(12:34):
status of epic proportion andgreat magnitude when you have
not only the US courts, even theUnited Nations having
declarations made about it andthe uses and how you can go
about using it right To theextent that you know the CIA and
FBI and federal governmentsaround the world are forbidden
(12:55):
on how they use this, how longyou can be in there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because theduration, whether you're talking
about 15 days, 30 days, theduration for a human being to be
deprived of these particularthings, especially when you
think about and this brothercould attest to that in probably
much more crisp terms but oneof the things that the law is
designed to address is whetheror not your human rights is
(13:17):
being violated.
Where do these human rightscome from?
These human rights don't comefrom another human being.
These are the human rights thatcome from the most high right,
and what's going on when you'resitting in a man-made
contraption is affecting how youare supposed to naturally
function as a human being.
So, whether you're talkingabout a person, the air, your
access to sunlight, your accessto all the particular things
(13:40):
that, as a human being, you arerequired to have to survive
right Now, you take it from acourt perspective.
From a court perspective, we'replacing you in incarceration
for what you've done wrong, butto the extent that what you've
done wrong, we're not takingaway your life.
You haven't forfeited that, andthat's what the prison system
(14:03):
is designed to do.
It's supposed to say that well,you've gotten into this bit of
trouble, we're going to removeyou from society because of this
trouble, but to go to theextent where I'm going to start
depriving you of natural humanprocesses.
I'm going to a certain extent,that is what is considered to be
tortured If it's applied in aadministrative fashion by any
(14:26):
particular government entity inthat way.
So you know, seeing people inthat particular environment,
it's not just that those peopleare going through the process of
the walls caving in.
They are actually feeling thephysical and physiological,
neurological and mental effects,possibly even in spiritual
effect.
That's not calculated a lot oftimes.
(14:47):
But all of these particulareffects as a human being are
being targeted, and in thisparticular sense they're being
targeted in many cases unjustly,unlawfully, unconstitutionally.
And who goes aboutadministering why you are in
that cell?
This brother spoke about beingin that cell and being under
attack because he's developedthis newfound litigation.
(15:11):
It was before I did this.
I did this wrong thing before.
Right, here's a rule that Ishouldn't violate.
Ok, we all come to theagreement that you, as the
administration, you now sayingthat for that violation I get to
sit in this cell.
But now you've gone beyond thatbecause I'm not violating the
law anymore.
In fact, one of the ideas thatI would bring to this brother,
his other extent in Supermaxcame from writing news articles
(15:35):
about what's going wrong in thesystem.
So you're not placing me inwhat they're classifying as
torturous situations anymorebecause I did something wrong.
This isn't a punishment status.
You see what I'm saying.
You've taken and gone beyondthe fact that I might've done
something wrong.
You said well, I got thiscontraption that I know for a
fact has been declared by mygovernment or government
(15:57):
entities that, however I usethis, it can be utilized as a
harmful tool.
And I'm using, I'm nowweaponizing something that's
already declared by entity likethe United States Supreme Court
or the United Nations has alldeclared in Geneva, accords and
things of that magnitude.
Right, that if you use thisstatus, status in this
(16:19):
particular method, in thisparticular fashion, we know that
these are the type of harmsthat it should pose to a person.
Right, and we are forbiddingyou from doing that, even under
conditions where this person hasgotten themselves in some
trouble.
But now you've gone beyond thatand said I know that you as a
court or you as a legal entity,said or forbid us from doing
(16:40):
that.
And not only am I going to gobeyond that, I'm going to use
this when I don't feel like,well, this person here is bowing
down to my dominion.
I don't want him to learn thelaw.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Him learning the law poses a threat to my system and
my orderly running of thingslike that and that goes all the
way back to even slavery days,when they were saying black
people get in trouble just foreven reading.
You know what I mean.
So it's deeper than that andit's just a horrible, horrible
form of control.
You know, just to call it whatit is torture.
So I guess when you takesomething away, you have to
(17:12):
replace it with something right?
So what would be thealternative to segregation?
As far as if there is nosegregation, if we don't have
that form of punishment, whatwould be the form of punishment
in prison?
What would deter one inmatefrom harming another inmate?
If they didn't have thatdeterrent, what would you put in
place?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
of that.
That's an interesting word,deterrent because one of the
problems is that there's nodeterrent for abuse of power.
So you have correctionalofficers.
Just think about it.
If you had the ability that anytime somebody upset you, you
could exact punishment withoutany repercussions to you you
made me mad.
I can slap you, I can throw youaway for a year and never have
(17:55):
to see you again.
And so, even if I violate thelaw, there's no money out of my
pocket.
If you file a lawsuit, I don'thave to pay it.
I'm not losing my job.
I'm not losing my job.
I'm not getting demoted.
In many cases I'm gettingpromoted.
There's no deterrent.
There's every incentive for acorrectional officer to abuse
his power because they'reprotected and they will form
(18:17):
ranks around that officer, theywill go to bat for him and at
the end of the day because I'velitigated many cases, settled
many cases and the AAG, theassistant attorney general, who
was actually representing theDOC at the time, almost pretty
much saying so many words Look,I have to represent them.
I can't do nothing about it.
(18:37):
We can offer you some money.
Can't take back what happened,but that's one of the problems.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And I understand that 100 percent.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
But that's one of the problems.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And I understand that 100%.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Going back to the question, yeah, yeah, a couple
of years ago I was in theVirginia Department of
Correction.
The punishment has to beproportionate.
It's not that there should beno deterrent, but it has to be
proportionate.
An example in that system youwould not spend 30 days in
solitary confinement.
The most you would probablyspend is 15 days.
I'm talking about it's beenfights on the yard where it's
(19:06):
like.
I'm talking about the prisonrecreation yard, where it's like
six guys on one, but it'susually people that are dealing
with their own.
You know, whether you areLatino, whether you are European
, aryan nation groups, whatever,you know different groups there
, whether you're Muslim you knowwhat I'm saying whether you're
black, crip, blood, whatever.
In most cases it's people thatdeal with their own and don't
(19:26):
cross that line in terms ofattacking or dealing or crossing
the line with other groups orpeople.
So what you have, just like inany society, prison is just a
small.
It's a microcosm of the majorsociety.
Right, you're going to regulatesociety yourself.
You don't need the police atyour doorstep following you
everywhere you go, telling youwhat and what not to do.
(19:47):
We are human beings, we aresocial people, so certain things
are going to take place.
It's not going to be chaos,just like it's not total chaos
in society.
But one thing is that it has tobe proportionate.
So in that system where youdon't spend more than 15 days or
so in solitary confinement, ifyou spend up to 30 days, there's
actually a program.
(20:07):
When I was there it was calleda STAR program, and so the
program is if you spend 30 daysin solitary confinement, you
take this program and you candecide to go to any other prison
in that system that's at thatsame level you're at.
So if you're a medium custody,it can be another medium prison,
if you're a maximum custody, itcould be another maximum prison
(20:28):
and so on and so forth.
But that just goes to show you.
When I told him how much time Iserved in solitary confinement
in Wisconsin, if you saw thelook on their face, it's like
what?
It was unbelievable.
I was like, yeah, man, I saidin Wisconsin you do years in
solitary confinement, 30 days.
You do that just on TLU,temporary lockup, while they're
(20:50):
investigating whether or notthey're going to give you a
charge.
So that's the difference, man,wisconsin.
And in the system where youdon't have a lot of violent
crime don't get me wrong.
A person can get killed in theWisconsin system just as
anywhere else.
Jeffrey Dahmer an example.
It happens, but it's notprevalent.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I got to push back on you because I don't feel like
that.
You answered my question.
I mean, you answered it, but Iguess's not the the answer that
I was looking for.
Like I said, what would be thealternative to solitary
confinement, because that's whatI'm thinking that the listeners
is going to be like.
Okay, I'm with you, it ispunishment, it is torture,
(21:30):
because I mean it is, it hasbeen classified as that and it
has been weaponized as that.
If we can't use that, what dowe put in place of that as
punishment or deterrent?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well, there's a bunch of things already in place.
Maybe I'll elaborate a littlebit.
One they restrict yourvisitation so you can get denied
visits for 30 days or more.
You can have a loss ofelectronics.
One thing guys do when they'reincarcerated because you're away
from society they have tablets.
Now, I mean you don't haveinternet access, but you do have
the ability to send emails, tolook certain things up, like
(22:05):
K-Lite, khan Academy.
I think they're bringing thatin Wisconsin as well.
I know they have it in someother systems, including
Virginia Telephone.
They're starting to let guysuse the telephone on their
tablets.
So basically they have a cellphone without Internet access.
So that's one of the means ofcommunicating and I think now
they're also going to startletting them have visits on the
tablet.
It's about a little 7-inchtablet.
So those are the type of thingsthat can be done and that's
(22:28):
already being done.
But it seems in Wisconsin theygo straight from 0 to 60 instead
of 0 to maybe 5, 10, 15, 20miles an hour.
So they go straight zero to 60,throw you in the hole for a
whole year for a little bit ofnothing.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Okay, Now I'm going to challenge you guys again On
my program.
I always like to ask thisquestion what do you feel that
the DOC is doing right?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
I'll get to that.
I wanted to add in to what adeter know a deterrent would be
in terms of solitary confinement.
His answer was really similarto what I was thinking.
You do realize, on a federallevel you don't do more than 30
days unless it's somethingmassive, and that's what really
we're getting at.
Is that a lot of the thingsthat you're talking about in
(23:13):
prison is tantamount to atraffic ticket.
So should a person do 360 daysin solitary confinement for a
traffic ticket, right?
Should a person do 360 days insolitary confinement because he
cussed out a prison guard?
Should a person do 365 days?
I'll give you an exact example.
There's this guy that used to bein prison.
(23:35):
When I came back from the supersupermassive, they called him
Godfather.
He was in.
I think it was in Oshkosh orKettle Moran.
He's one of them guys thatliked to smoke cigarettes and he
caught a prison guard slipping.
Prison guard had a cigarette.
Instead of putting thecigarette all the way out, he
dropped it in the ashtray andwent and turned his back.
Well, this guy's figured.
Well, it's already lit, I ain'teven got to get no light.
So he went and got thecigarette and they caught him on
(23:56):
camera with the cigarette, buthe wanted to take a puff.
So now he took off running.
He took off running to finishthe little butt.
How long do you think he shouldbe in solitary confinement for a
cigarette as a grown man, at 30, 40 years old?
(24:28):
And we might say, well, thatdisrupted the institution.
Did that disrupt theinstitution enough for this guy
to be sitting in solitaryconfinement for the next four or
five years, be dumped off intosociety without all the proper
addressing of his treatment inthis 9-3rd, to the point where
now he's even more debilitatedthan he was when he did this
particular act.
And that's commonplace.
More commonplace that if youactually did the investigation
on what people are going tosolitary confinement for, you
will find that most people arenot going to solitary
confinement for any kind ofviolent activity.
So when you put it in thatcontext, the deterrent would be
is the system putting in placesomething, as he was saying,
(24:49):
that actually addresses theoffense?
Because if you're not, thenguess what?
If I'm a person faced with theprospect that you're going to
condemn me for a year, two years, three years for what I did,
I'm liable to be even moreviolent Because you're going to
harm me.
You see what I'm saying, andthis is proven in psychology.
Psychiatrists around thecountry, top psychiatrists,
(25:10):
neurologists around the worldwould tell you that the human
being faced with certainprospects, fight or flight.
They're going to choose oneanother, right.
So there's already a percentageof people that, regardless of
what our deterrent is, they'regoing to fight regardless
Because you put them in thatposition of feeling like, well,
I got nothing to lose.
These individuals are havingall sorts of number of
(25:32):
breakdowns emotionally,life-wise, lifetime crisis,
right.
And, as opposed to ever havingthe appropriate things in place
to address what they're goingthrough, we'll lock them up.
And then, when they're lockedup, are they being provided with
the appropriate treatment sothat they can address whatever
the original problem was?
(25:54):
And if they're not, well, lockthem up even more.
So it's hard to come up with adeterrent.
If you're saying that theadministration of the process of
being solitary is willy-nilly,as opposed to across the board,
I can attest to.
I've been in the federal system.
In the federal system, it's notgoing to matter if you had an
assault Now.
If that assault is so egregiousthat you don't know how to
(26:16):
conduct yourself, we got placesfor you, right?
There's a reason you getescalated up to the ADX, but I
shouldn't be subject to ADXtreatment in this prison over
here.
This is supposed to be a mediumprison.
How are you using solitaryconfinement in a medium prison,
a regular maximum securityprison, and saying that, well, I
can lock you up there and I canput these allegations on you,
(26:39):
and I can as a person, as ahuman being, you know what I'm
thought that you, because ofthis now, and third, and by the
time you come up out of solitaryconfinement, this person don't
make captain, you don't makemore debilitating steps in life,
a more of a separation fromyour family, community, more
separation, because a lot ofthese people keep in mind that
we're talking abouthypothetically, but actuality.
(26:59):
Most of these people are comingback to society.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I think this is over 80% of people that's in prison
will one day come home.
And I always tell people thisI'm like yo.
These people are your neighbors, these are people's kids.
Go to school with your kids.
They go to the same libraries,they listen to the same music.
They're going to shop at thesame grocery stores.
You know, when you go toSummerfest, they'll be there.
When you go to the state fair,those kids, those same kids,
(27:24):
will be there.
You know what I'm saying.
And if they don't have theproper upbringing, they don't
have a father in their home orthey don't have a mother, it
affects them.
So this is it's not just ourcommunity, it's our community,
all of us.
You know what I'm saying.
So we got to do right byeverybody, not just, you know,
do right by some.
(27:45):
You know what I'm saying and wecan't forget the people that's
locked up and that's in prisonbecause, like I said, they're
still a part of our community,because they will be home one
day.
You guys got out and went right, but we know everybody don't go
out and go right.
Some people go out and go left.
You know what I'm saying.
So you guys are really blessedthat you did that much time and
(28:07):
still kept your mind.
A lot of people that do thattype of time.
They don't come out mentallythe same.
You know what I mean.
They don't.
It seemed like you guys, youknow, even said you know you
came out sharper, you feel thatyou're wiser.
It feels like you learned fromthat situation.
It actually made you strong.
It breaks some people and somepeople are never the same and I
(28:30):
talked to a lot of people youknow in that situation and
that's came back from thatsituation and sometimes they
don't come back the same.
You know it didn't do what itdid for y'all.
You know what I'm saying.
So really y'all need to beproud of yourselves.
I really appreciate both of youbrothers being here.
Man, seriously, thank you guys.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So much Thank you for having us brother man.
It's my pleasure, my honor oh.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.