April 10, 2025 • 29 mins
Peter Gray didn't set out to become an executive recruiter. Still, his journey from Wall Street to Madison, Wisconsin, reveals how powerful it can be when professional expertise aligns with personal values. As a Harvard graduate who still admits to feeling imposter syndrome ("Everyone thinks they're the one who got in by mistake—including me," he laughs), Peter brings refreshing authenticity to the often mysterious world of executive hiring.
What makes Peter's perspective particularly valuable is his willingness to confront uncomfortable truths about recruitment. He coined the term "round peg bias" to describe how employers mentally filter candidates against their preconceived image of who belongs in a role—one of the most pervasive yet rarely discussed barriers to diversifying organizations. Even more surprising is his revelation about LinkedIn, the platform most of us rely on for professional networking: "LinkedIn has a ton of systemic bias just baked right into it," Peter explains, detailing how this seemingly neutral tool can undermine diversity efforts unless used strategically.
The conversation weaves through Peter's significant impact in helping Wisconsin's state pension fund build its investment team (saving taxpayers millions in Wall Street fees), his community involvement with the Boys and Girls Club, and the changing landscape of DEI initiatives. He offers thoughtful insights on trade careers, mentorship, and how AI reshapes recruitment: "AI won't take your job. Your job may be taken by somebody who does what you do and knows how to use AI."
For anyone navigating today's complex hiring environment—whether as an employer, job seeker, or leader concerned with building diverse teams—Peter's experience offers practical wisdom and a reminder that meaningful work often comes from connecting our professional skills with the communities we care about. Connect with Peter on LinkedIn or through his website, petergraysearch.com, to learn how his approach might benefit your organization.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up everybody?
This is your host, dee Star,here with Peter Gray.
Peter Gray, how you doing, man?
Not too bad.
How are you doing, dee?
I cannot complain.
Welcome to my humble abode,abo-abord, abode.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Abode right.
Yo, it's great to be here inyour lower-level podcast studio.
My home office is the lowerlevel of my house, too Awesome.
So for the people that don'tknow you, can you tell us a
little bit about yourself?
Sure, I'm Peter Gray.
I'm an executive recruiter.
(00:34):
I run Peter Gray ExecutiveSearch.
I wasn't actually raised inWisconsin.
I am a New Yorker who marriedinto Madison and I'm coming up
on 20 years in Madison.
I'm not just a New Yorker.
I was a Wall Street recruiter,and so I call myself a
recovering Wall Street recruiter, and so I call myself a
recovering Wall Street recruiter.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I've seen that on your website I say recovering
Wall Street recruiter.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I recruited on Wall Street.
I recruited for all kinds ofinvestment positions.
I got to tell you D didn't loveWall Street culture.
So I enjoyed the opportunity toleave New York, move to Madison
with some different people anddifferent businesses.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
So tell me a little bit about your experiences.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh sure, Well, I mean New York's fantastic.
I was born in Queens, I grew upin the suburbs, I went to
college and met somebody fromWisconsin and we moved back to
New York City.
So from the early—I'm in my 50s, so from the early 1990s until
2005, I lived in a few differentplaces in Brooklyn in.
(01:33):
Manhattan.
We started our careers, westarted our family and I love
New York.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
On your website I've seen that you actually went to
Harvard.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yes, that's where I yeah, that's where I met Jen, my
wife.
She is from Oregon, wisconsin,here outside of Madison, and I
believe she was Oregon HighSchool's first graduate to go to
Harvard.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So both of you guys must be wicked smart.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I don't know.
There's actually a fair amountof imposter syndrome.
I'm still in touch with myHarvard alum friends and
everybody thinks that they'rethe one who got into harvard by
mistake really including me, andthat's.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
That's like the culture.
Yeah, it's like man we kind ofsneak by.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I don't know, maybe not everybody, they're probably.
They're probably some peoplewho feel a sense of entitlement
about being there.
Right, because there are somepeople who, like, the legacy
model was strong, so there werepeople who were like whose
father's father?
yeah multi-generations of theirfamily had gone there.
And there are people who'vegone, who went to um, some of
the elite private schools where,like you know, several people
from their private school classwould go to harvard every year,
(02:36):
and so they'd get to harvard andthey'd be surrounded by friends
and people they know.
Was that your experience?
That was, that wasn't me.
I was the first person in myfamily to go to Harvard.
I went to public high schooland it's an amazing place.
It's beautiful, it's veryhistoric.
It feels like you're kind of inthe center of the world,
because whatever's happening atHarvard, it makes Boston news
and it often makes national news.
(02:56):
So you felt like you were in thecenter of things and I never
lost that sense of wonder.
Corn Ferry is one of the bigglobal executive search firms
and I started my career there,my career as an executive
recruiter.
That was in New York City.
I was there for about threeyears.
That was a great learningexperience.
That was just my, you know,learning the business.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
For the people that don't know what is an executive
recruiter.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
An executive recruiter people sometimes call
us headhunters is someone whohelps companies fill positions,
and the model is when anemployer has a position that is
senior enough or is strategicenough or difficult to fill
enough that they want to hire anoutside consultant to help them
search for candidates and tohelp them manage the recruiting
(03:42):
process.
That's what a recruiter is.
So how did you get into thattype of work?
When I graduated from Harvard,I didn't know what I wanted to
do, or I thought I wanted to.
Actually thought I wanted to gointo film and television
production and I did that for acouple of years in New York.
It was a struggle.
I went to business school andwhen I graduated from business
school I still didn't know whatI wanted to do.
So I went into managementconsulting.
(04:04):
That was what my classmates ifwe still didn't know what our
career path was, we often gethired at management consulting
firms Did not enjoy that.
But at the same time as I wasmanagement consulting I was kind
of the unofficial classsecretary for my business school
class.
So I was the guy who was kindof keeping us all connected and
in doing that I kind of becamethe person who was helping
(04:24):
people hire and helping peoplefind jobs.
So I was running this is again.
This is the late 1990s I wasrunning a list serve which at
the time was like I guess I feelreally old saying this, but
managing a list serve in thelate 1990s was actually a pretty
the cutting edge of communitybuilding.
Okay, this is before socialmedia, and I got just so deep
(04:46):
into that that I I discoveredthat there was a profession
where people actually do thisand get paid, which is
recruiting and executive search,and so I I went pro I went pro.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
What inspired your transformation from wall Street
recruiting to social impacthiring and what key lessons did
you learn in the corporate worldthat you would now apply to the
nonprofit and social impacthiring?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well D, there were two things the first part of
your question there were twothings that were happening at
once.
One was Jen and I felt ready toleave new york city.
Okay, we had two toddlers indiapers in a small new york city
apartment.
That was getting tough.
They were.
We were starting to have tolook into preschools and
(05:37):
kindergarten for them.
We were in new york through9-11 and post 9-11.
New york was actually a lotharder place to.
There was a lot more securityand a very different vibe and at
the same time I did feel I toldyou I was not a fan of Wall
Street culture.
So it was a great time to moveto Wisconsin and to say let's
(05:58):
change my focus.
Coming from that background ofinvestment recruiting, coming
from that background ofinvestment recruiting, my first
big recruiting client here inWisconsin was actually SWIB, the
Wisconsin State Pension Fund,state of Wisconsin Investment
Board.
Swib was expanding its in-houseinvestment team and I became
(06:29):
SWIB's recruiter, which was afantastic experience.
Over the course of about threeyears or so 2007, eight, nine,
10, I helped Swib hire 15investment professionals from
around the country, includingfrom wall street, and growing
that in-house.
And what?
What that enabled was growing.
That in-house investment teamenabled Swib to take billions
and billions of our taxpayerdollars that Swib was sending to
Wall Street firms and WallStreet firms were charging us
(06:51):
millions of dollars in fees tomanage those funds.
Swib was able to bring thosefunds back, manage those
investments in-house and saveour Wisconsin taxpayers tens of
millions of dollars.
So that was a great project,thank you.
Peter, sure, don't thank me, butit was actually an amazing time
(07:13):
for Swib to have embarked onthis investment strategy,
because this was, like I said,07, 08, 09, 10.
Wall Street was collapsing, soI'd like to think like I was a
great recruiter and I did agreat job and I did work hard.
But we also we got a bigtailwind out of the fact that
Wall Street was getting crushedand suddenly a lot of investment
professionals were looking forjobs and across the country,
they were seeing oh my gosh, Ididn't know, there was a.
(07:35):
One of the biggest publicpension funds in the world was
in Wisconsin, and so werecruited people from all over
the country.
Some of them are still there,so you also train diversity,
hiring outcomes.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What makes your training different from your
typical DEI programs?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Oh, that's a great question.
D.
This is a great topic.
Should we get into it?
Let's get into it.
Okay, first of all, I'm work isDEI adjacent, because hiring
absolutely hiring has a hugeimpact on what organizations
look like and so how peoplethink about people's attitudes
(08:15):
about diversity and diversifyingtheir organizations have a huge
impact on hiring.
So that's what I mean when Isay my work is DEI adjacent.
Two things One, here in MadisonI'm a business consultant.
Employers sometimes come to meand sometimes come to recruiters
and say hey, peter, I'm a whiteCEO, I have an all-white
(08:37):
leadership team.
We are a mostly white workforcein our company and we are
interested in and motivated to,diversify our organization, make
it look more like America.
Now we have an empty seat atthe leadership table.
We want to use that as anopportunity to diversify our
leadership team.
So that's a conversation that Ifound coming to me and I
(09:00):
thought to myself oh, I reallyneed to improve my competencies
and my skills to be able torespond to that conversation.
And that's look, that's betterthan nothing when someone comes
to a recruiter with thatconversation.
But sometimes it's morestrategic and thoughtful than
that.
Sometimes it's kind ofsuperficial, like, oh, we have
an empty chair, let's use thatas an opportunity to diversify
(09:21):
our hiring.
Of course, it's better if theemployer is being more
thoughtful and strategic andtaking a more holistic approach.
So, dee, that's one thing.
As I like I said, I wanted toimprove my skills and my
competencies around helpingemployers diversify their hiring
.
I had a light bulb moment whenI discovered that LinkedIn,
(09:42):
which is the biggest you knowonline and software tool that
employers use for recruiting andhiring, has a ton of systemic
bias just baked right into it.
So I was trying to help thoseemployers diversify their hiring
outcomes and the primary tool Iwas using was LinkedIn.
I was struggling and that'swhen I realized that, that I
(10:03):
realized that LinkedIn has a lotof bias issues in the way that
LinkedIn is organized and theway we use it.
So my again, I'm not a DEIconsultant.
So again, I'm not a DEIconsultant.
My biggest sort of move inhelping employers diversify
hiring outcomes is recognizingthat LinkedIn is biased and if
(10:24):
we change how we use LinkedIn,we can change that.
We can flip LinkedIn from nothelping us diversify hiring
outcomes to helping us diversifyhiring outcomes in the people
we're finding in LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
So I don't want to give away too much of your
secrets because I know it's alot of secret sauce in there.
You do serve on the Boys andGirls Clubs board and have won
multiple community serviceawards.
How has community involvementshaped your perspective on
leadership?
Oh boy, Well, d.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
First of all, I love the Boys and Girls Clubs.
You know I went to the Boys andGirls Clubs growing up as a kid
, so this is an organizationthat I, that I you know, helped
shape me, that I have a love forI'm also people who know me in
Madison and in Wisconsin knowthat I'm a big cyclist too.
So when I got to Madison,wisconsin, and discovered that
the local Boys and Girls Clubs,that its annual fundraiser, was
(11:18):
a big bike event, I was likegreat, count me in, I'm in and
we're going back 20 years.
But first couple of yearssigned up and participated in
that event and my kids did, andthey asked me to be on the event
planning committee.
And one thing led to anotherand then I chaired that summer
fundraising event campaign forseveral years At the same time
and also I got to help recruitMichael Johnson to Madison and I
(11:42):
think the world of him, andit's a real honor to serve on
his board.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I didn't even know that you were the person that
recruited Michael Johnson.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I wasn't the person who recruited Michael Johnson.
It was actually anotherrecruiter at the firm I was at.
I was there, so I have knownMichael Johnson from day one.
That he's been in Madison, butokay, we'll see.
If Michael hears this, michaelsometimes likes to say I
recruited him to Madison.
That's a little exaggeration,but I was there when we
recruited him to Madison at myfirm.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So you're guilty by association.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yes, at the firm that I worked at at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yes, guilty by association.
Blame me.
Absolutely Well, after peoplehear this, they're going to be
like.
So that's the guy.
So I wanted to talk aboutbiases in the hiring process.
So biases in the hiring processis a huge issue.
What are some of the mostcommon biases you've seen and
(12:36):
how do they affect hiringoutcomes?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
D, bias in hiring is a huge issue and the different
dimensions of bias that I see.
For the most part they don'teven have names, they go unnamed
so I try to name them.
I feel like the biggest biasthat I see, the biggest one of
all, is a bias that I call roundpeg bias.
Right, we all think likeemployers think of their job
(13:03):
openings as round holes.
They're looking for round pegsthat fit in those round holes.
Bias just means that anemployer generally has a picture
in their mind of who they seefor this job, like literally who
they see, maybe, what kind ofperson they are and what they
look like.
But also boxes they check onpaper.
(13:24):
And when someone applies forone of those jobs or interviews
for it, employers, I feel likein their brains they do this
thing where they go okay, intheir brains they do this thing
where they go okay, how closelydo you look like my preconceived
notion and that's round pegbias.
There are a lot of others, butI feel like that covers a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So how do you see the future of DEI?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
evolving in hiring and leadership.
D I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know Because it's a lot
going on.
Right now it is.
We're in a very interestingmoment.
A lot is happening and changingfast.
You know, in this country wetake steps forward and then we
have a reaction, we take stepsback.
I don't have a crystal ball, Idon't know.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Just to be honest, I felt like DEI.
There was a time that it wasclear, cut and defined what it
was.
And then, once it started totake off, I felt like it just
got so murky that people kind oflost what it was all about in
the first place.
And then it was like all ofthis new DEI it used to be DEI,
(14:34):
then it's not the new dei, andthen I just feel like it's.
It keeps updating, updating,updating what it is, and now I
think it's updating again, Ithink it's shifting again and I
just think that there's a lot ofconfusion.
We don't, I don't know whereit's going to go from here,
because it's just so murky.
I don't even If I was to saydefine DEI for me and you could
(15:01):
give me your take on it, butthen when you look at the main
recipients of DEI, then it'slike, okay, is this what you see
, what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, maybe I think so.
It's hard to define and I don'tknow where it's going.
I just D I have to believe thatcompanies and employers win in
the marketplace and atdelivering their services when
they look more like America,when they look more like the
(15:33):
society that they're a part of.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I've seen a study on that that says that companies
thrive more when they have amore diverse workforce.
I've seen them too yeah.
Because of the differentthought patterns and different
ideas and different cultures andhow people share information
different cultures and howpeople share information.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
It unlocks creativity and innovation and it makes
companies better able to reachdifferent markets of people.
And I also have to believe thatour communities win when all
kinds of people in ourcommunities are doing all kinds
of work and doing all kinds ofthings and mixing it up with
(16:14):
each other right.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Right, and that's what I was saying.
Like you know, about the DEIthing, it's like I thought it
was for one thing, but then whenI see the outcomes and how much
the outcomes has changed fromwhat they said it was originally
for, I get confused, to behonest.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, they say okay, there's something that I've
heard which I don't know if thisis what you're saying
Affirmative action was conceived, as I understand it, to benefit
primarily people of color,Correct, and they say that
primary beneficiaries ended upbeing mostly-.
White women, white women, right.
So I don't know, maybe that'swhat you're saying.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That's exactly what I'm saying, and White women
Right.
So I don't know.
Maybe that's what you're saying.
That's exactly what I'm saying,and maybe I shouldn't have
danced around that.
Maybe I should have just beenmore direct with that, and I
apologize to the audience forthat, because I don't feel like
I should have to speak in code.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's all good, but you're right, we don't know
where this stuff is going.
We don't know where this stuffis going and we can talk about
meritocracy in theory.
In reality, it's kind of messedup because not everyone's had
the same access over generations.
So, just like you know, talkingabout the, you know the example
that you know, banks love tohire bankers who are
(17:26):
multi-generational bankers.
Well, you know what?
There aren't that manymulti-generational bankers who
aren't white men.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And just to prove my theory of what I was saying is
when a company comes to you andsay, hey, we have this open seat
, we're looking to diversify, sowe want a DI hire.
I don't think they'll probablysay a DI hire, but you get it
right Is the first thing thatyou're thinking of when you're
having that conversation is awhite woman.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
No, not at all.
No, usually, when people comewith that intentional
conversation, they're generally,generally that's a white leader
who wants to hire the company'sfirst leadership team member of
color.
I think that example aboutaffirmative action benefiting
white women more than people ofcolor I feel like that's.
(18:14):
I mean, affirmative action goesback to what like the 80s or
even earlier 60s.
I feel like that's that playedout, and I feel like I do feel
like many of our industries aremore have more gender balance, a
lot more gender balance thanthey used to, more so than
racial diversity.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Some companies are scaling back DEI efforts.
What's your response to criticswho say DEI is no longer a
priority?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think it is a priority and I think there are
different cases.
There's a moral case, there's abusiness case.
I feel like it makes sense forsomeone who is a critic, who
thinks DEI shouldn't be apriority.
I think it actually makes senseto lead with the business case
and show that employers thathave more creativity and
(19:04):
innovation on your team andbeing able to reach a broader,
more diverse customer base.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
And just to slide off a little bit.
You know I was thinking I'mlike man, you do so much for the
Boys and Girls Club.
I didn't put this on our sheet,but I wanted to get your views
about mentorship and howimportant it is to you and how
do you feel like.
Did mentorship play a part inyour success?
Part in your success.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
It did.
It did to some degree.
I mean I was.
I grew up in a home where, youknow, my parents went to college
.
I was the youngest of four kids.
We were expected to advance tocollege, where I see tremendous
mentorship impact at the boysand girls clubs.
I've been a tops mentor and andI'm now a mentor through rotary
of a rotary.
(20:05):
Scholar is scholar is mentoringkids for whom that might not be
the story.
You know young people, highschoolers, who might be first
person in their family to beapplying to college.
It's confusing, man.
It is the applications,financial aid, choosing a school
.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It is confusing and that mentorship really is really
an important, important thingthe Boys and Girls Club does,
you know it's funny because yousaid it was kind of like your
mother and father went tocollege and they told you you
know, it's pretty much expected.
You know you don't really havea choice.
You're gonna go, and I alwaystell my kids you don't have to
(20:46):
know what you're going to go for, I just want you to go.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I feel the same way and at the same time D I'm also
opening myself to a betterunderstanding that college isn't
for everyone and that we needto have great life and career
pathways for people who don'tchoose college and college isn't
for them, and I'm glad we'redoing that.
You can see the Boys and GirlsClubs doing that with the
McKenzie Regional WorkforceCenter and focus on trades
(21:12):
education.
You know we have a big laborshortage in the trades.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, we're going to get hurt here soon if we don't
get on that.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, we're getting hurt now.
I mean, did you ever have youhad an emergency call to a
plumber or an electrician?
Yeah, Just recently.
Oh yeah, I hope someone wasable to come promptly.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, but it cost me big time.
You know, we're talking aboutthe emergency calls, like 450.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
You know, just for them to come in and not taking
away from anything that they do.
But I was like man.
If I would have known just topull this lever, I would have
saved myself $450,000.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
We have a big shortage, and I mean John
McKenzie has talked about this.
You know he is a real estatedeveloper.
He and his family business isapartment buildings, so he
builds buildings and it's hardfor builders to build on
schedule because they havetrouble staffing their
construction sites and theirtrades.
(22:11):
And he's gotten up and talkedabout the fact that a bunch of
pretty much white men got intothese trades, set up unions,
made it harder for the nextgeneration to get in after them,
and now they're aging out ofthe game and they're not being
no one's backfilling thembecause it's hard to get into
the trades and so we need tomake it easier to get into the
(22:33):
trade, and people recognize this.
We need to make it easier toget into the trades and we need
to be making the trades moreaccessible to more young people,
including and especially ouryoung people, who college might
not be for them.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
But I also think that I want to tell the kids that if
they think that college isn'tfor you, that it's never too
late to change your mind,because I thought college wasn't
for me until I went and I lovedit and I was a 4.0 student and
I was assistant to the dean andI loved it and I was a 4.0
(23:07):
student and I was assistant tothe dean and I started the chess
club.
I started just so manydifferent programs and got so
many different opportunities andI never thought that I would go
to college.
I was like I'm not going tocollege.
I didn't even like high schoolthat much and as time went past,
it's like I started collegelate.
I went to college at 26.
(23:29):
I just don't want people tothink that just because you feel
like right now that collegeisn't for you, don't close your
mind forever, because you canalways go back.
But the trades is a greatalternative, if not, in some
cases, a better alternative thancollege, because a lot of times
(23:51):
when you go to college you havean idea of what you want to do,
but nine times out of 10,that's not probably what you're
going to end up doing.
But with the trades is, onceyou get into the trades, you're
instantly making money doingwhat it is that you say that you
want to do.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yes, you are.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
A significant amount of money to take care of a
family or take care of yourselfversus going to college.
And now you're paying a bunchof money.
You'll never hear theDepartment of Labor workforce
saying hey, we have too manyplumbers and carpenters and
roofers.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, no time soon.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
No time soon.
So a lawyer, yeah, you know,with the emergence of AI, Well,
here's what I heard said aboutAI.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Your job is not going to be taken away by AI.
Your job may be taken bysomebody who does what you do
and knows how to use AI.
So I'm trying to learn how touse.
I'm trying to get better atusing AI in my business as a
recruiter.
There are some different waysDo you use AI?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I was afraid of AI at first because I was like, I was
just afraid.
You know, because, like yousaid, like you were having that
imposter syndrome, I had thesame thing.
I'm like I'm not smart enoughto use this, I don't know what
I'm doing.
But as I got more and morecomfortable with it, I find
myself leaning into it a lotmore.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I'm starting with.
You know I use Zoom a lot.
I'm just trying to get betterat using the AI tools that are
now built into Zoom.
You can capture a transcriptand you can actually you can
have an AI summary of a Zoomcall.
And I just so Dee, in fact,just yesterday, of a Zoom call,
and I just so Dee, in fact, justyesterday or two days ago, I
(25:31):
sent my first AI summary of acall to the group that I was on
the call with.
But I also learned I shouldn'thave just grabbed the summary
and sent it without reading itfirst, because it summarized the
whole call and the first fewminutes.
We started with small talk andsomeone was like, yeah, I was
like, oh you, oh, did you get ahaircut?
Your hair looks great.
And oh, and we just took afamily trip and went all these
places, and that was in thesummary too.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So that reminds me of one of my favorite shows, the
Office, yeah, and there was ascene when he was like they were
doing this called the nights ofthe night, and they were going
over the minutes from last weekand he was, like, you know, just
saying all of this like justcrazy stuff, like, oh yeah, we
(26:17):
tested out our flashlights andwe did this and we did this.
It's just like little stuff.
I was like it's really funny.
But yeah, I had to learn thatthe hard way too.
Like you need to actually readit, like it'll do a lot for you,
but you need to manage it.
You know you still need to goin there and okay, sorry, I kind
(26:38):
of went down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It's all good, you know, this is stuff we're all
dealing with every day.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So if you could change one thing about how
hiring is done today, what wouldit be?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well D.
I would like to see employersovercome that, those biases, and
particularly that round pegbias, and just open their minds
to hiring differently.
I feel like the biggest changethat that would that that
wouldn't be needed is you shouldhire someone who's right for
your business, who cares aboutthe work that you do, even if
(27:09):
they don't have a certainspecific experience-based skill.
My experience as a recruiter isemployers don't want to hire
people to train them to do thework that they're hiring for.
That's why there are recruiters, that's why I have a job,
because employers they don'twant to hire someone who's a
good learner and is willing tolearn.
They want to hire someone whoalready knows it and often they
(27:32):
want to hire someone who's readyto teach it, and that's why
they're coming to me.
And coming to recruiters isbecause they have a knowledge
gap.
They don't know how to dosomething.
So let's hire someone in whocan teach us how to do the thing
we don't know how to do.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
So what's next for Peter Gray?
Executive Search, recruiting,social impact leaders.
What is next for the company?
What is?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
next Well, d, okay, so I've been a recruiter for a
long time.
Peter Gray Executive Search isfive years old.
Okay, I launched it at the verybeginning of the pandemic.
I feel very fortunate.
I've had great success.
I'm having a lot of fun, Ithink next about do I stay Peter
Gray Executive Search?
(28:15):
Because I'm solo, it's just meand I actually enjoy it and I
think I'm pretty good at it.
But I wonder if I should begetting together with some
others to form a bigger firm.
I don't know where I'm goingwith that, but that's something
I think about.
So have like a super packed ofpeople that can find you.
So maybe, but it's like I thinkmore about just how it would
(28:36):
affect my work, because I don'taspire to like lead a big team
and have people working for me,but if I'm teamed up with other
colleagues who do what I do, wecould support each other.
We could share the work.
When one of us is busy, one ofus who's less busy could help
them out.
We might have some backendprocesses and resources that we
could leverage together.
That's more what I think about.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So how can people get in contact with you?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
You can always find me on LinkedIn, peter Gray, and
you can find me through mywebsite, petergraysearchcom, and
my website has a contact formright there on it.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Well, Peter, thank you so much for stopping by the
podcast.
We really appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
D.
I love what you do, I love thepodcast, so thank you for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Absolutely, I'm D Star Until next time, guys.
What's up everybody?
This is your host, dee Star,here with Peter Gray.
Peter Gray, how you doing, man?
Not too bad.
How are you doing, dee?
I cannot complain.
Welcome to my humble abode,abo-abord, abode.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Abode right.
Yo, it's great to be here inyour lower-level podcast studio.
My home office is the lowerlevel of my house, too Awesome.
So for the people that don'tknow you, can you tell us a
little bit about yourself?
Sure, I'm Peter Gray.
I'm an executive recruiter.
(00:34):
I run Peter Gray ExecutiveSearch.
I wasn't actually raised inWisconsin.
I am a New Yorker who marriedinto Madison and I'm coming up
on 20 years in Madison.
I'm not just a New Yorker.
I was a Wall Street recruiter,and so I call myself a
recovering Wall Street recruiter, and so I call myself a
recovering Wall Street recruiter.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I've seen that on your website I say recovering
Wall Street recruiter.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I recruited on Wall Street.
I recruited for all kinds ofinvestment positions.
I got to tell you D didn't loveWall Street culture.
So I enjoyed the opportunity toleave New York, move to Madison
with some different people anddifferent businesses.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
So tell me a little bit about your experiences.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh sure, Well, I mean New York's fantastic.
I was born in Queens, I grew upin the suburbs, I went to
college and met somebody fromWisconsin and we moved back to
New York City.
So from the early—I'm in my 50s, so from the early 1990s until
2005, I lived in a few differentplaces in Brooklyn in.
(01:33):
Manhattan.
We started our careers, westarted our family and I love
New York.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
On your website I've seen that you actually went to
Harvard.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yes, that's where I yeah, that's where I met Jen, my
wife.
She is from Oregon, wisconsin,here outside of Madison, and I
believe she was Oregon HighSchool's first graduate to go to
Harvard.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So both of you guys must be wicked smart.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I don't know.
There's actually a fair amountof imposter syndrome.
I'm still in touch with myHarvard alum friends and
everybody thinks that they'rethe one who got into harvard by
mistake really including me, andthat's.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
That's like the culture.
Yeah, it's like man we kind ofsneak by.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I don't know, maybe not everybody, they're probably.
They're probably some peoplewho feel a sense of entitlement
about being there.
Right, because there are somepeople who, like, the legacy
model was strong, so there werepeople who were like whose
father's father?
yeah multi-generations of theirfamily had gone there.
And there are people who'vegone, who went to um, some of
the elite private schools where,like you know, several people
from their private school classwould go to harvard every year,
(02:36):
and so they'd get to harvard andthey'd be surrounded by friends
and people they know.
Was that your experience?
That was, that wasn't me.
I was the first person in myfamily to go to Harvard.
I went to public high schooland it's an amazing place.
It's beautiful, it's veryhistoric.
It feels like you're kind of inthe center of the world,
because whatever's happening atHarvard, it makes Boston news
and it often makes national news.
(02:56):
So you felt like you were in thecenter of things and I never
lost that sense of wonder.
Corn Ferry is one of the bigglobal executive search firms
and I started my career there,my career as an executive
recruiter.
That was in New York City.
I was there for about threeyears.
That was a great learningexperience.
That was just my, you know,learning the business.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
For the people that don't know what is an executive
recruiter.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
An executive recruiter people sometimes call
us headhunters is someone whohelps companies fill positions,
and the model is when anemployer has a position that is
senior enough or is strategicenough or difficult to fill
enough that they want to hire anoutside consultant to help them
search for candidates and tohelp them manage the recruiting
(03:42):
process.
That's what a recruiter is.
So how did you get into thattype of work?
When I graduated from Harvard,I didn't know what I wanted to
do, or I thought I wanted to.
Actually thought I wanted to gointo film and television
production and I did that for acouple of years in New York.
It was a struggle.
I went to business school andwhen I graduated from business
school I still didn't know whatI wanted to do.
So I went into managementconsulting.
(04:04):
That was what my classmates ifwe still didn't know what our
career path was, we often gethired at management consulting
firms Did not enjoy that.
But at the same time as I wasmanagement consulting I was kind
of the unofficial classsecretary for my business school
class.
So I was the guy who was kindof keeping us all connected and
in doing that I kind of becamethe person who was helping
(04:24):
people hire and helping peoplefind jobs.
So I was running this is again.
This is the late 1990s I wasrunning a list serve which at
the time was like I guess I feelreally old saying this, but
managing a list serve in thelate 1990s was actually a pretty
the cutting edge of communitybuilding.
Okay, this is before socialmedia, and I got just so deep
(04:46):
into that that I I discoveredthat there was a profession
where people actually do thisand get paid, which is
recruiting and executive search,and so I I went pro I went pro.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
What inspired your transformation from wall Street
recruiting to social impacthiring and what key lessons did
you learn in the corporate worldthat you would now apply to the
nonprofit and social impacthiring?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well D, there were two things the first part of
your question there were twothings that were happening at
once.
One was Jen and I felt ready toleave new york city.
Okay, we had two toddlers indiapers in a small new york city
apartment.
That was getting tough.
They were.
We were starting to have tolook into preschools and
(05:37):
kindergarten for them.
We were in new york through9-11 and post 9-11.
New york was actually a lotharder place to.
There was a lot more securityand a very different vibe and at
the same time I did feel I toldyou I was not a fan of Wall
Street culture.
So it was a great time to moveto Wisconsin and to say let's
(05:58):
change my focus.
Coming from that background ofinvestment recruiting, coming
from that background ofinvestment recruiting, my first
big recruiting client here inWisconsin was actually SWIB, the
Wisconsin State Pension Fund,state of Wisconsin Investment
Board.
Swib was expanding its in-houseinvestment team and I became
(06:29):
SWIB's recruiter, which was afantastic experience.
Over the course of about threeyears or so 2007, eight, nine,
10, I helped Swib hire 15investment professionals from
around the country, includingfrom wall street, and growing
that in-house.
And what?
What that enabled was growing.
That in-house investment teamenabled Swib to take billions
and billions of our taxpayerdollars that Swib was sending to
Wall Street firms and WallStreet firms were charging us
(06:51):
millions of dollars in fees tomanage those funds.
Swib was able to bring thosefunds back, manage those
investments in-house and saveour Wisconsin taxpayers tens of
millions of dollars.
So that was a great project,thank you.
Peter, sure, don't thank me, butit was actually an amazing time
(07:13):
for Swib to have embarked onthis investment strategy,
because this was, like I said,07, 08, 09, 10.
Wall Street was collapsing, soI'd like to think like I was a
great recruiter and I did agreat job and I did work hard.
But we also we got a bigtailwind out of the fact that
Wall Street was getting crushedand suddenly a lot of investment
professionals were looking forjobs and across the country,
they were seeing oh my gosh, Ididn't know, there was a.
(07:35):
One of the biggest publicpension funds in the world was
in Wisconsin, and so werecruited people from all over
the country.
Some of them are still there,so you also train diversity,
hiring outcomes.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What makes your training different from your
typical DEI programs?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Oh, that's a great question.
D.
This is a great topic.
Should we get into it?
Let's get into it.
Okay, first of all, I'm work isDEI adjacent, because hiring
absolutely hiring has a hugeimpact on what organizations
look like and so how peoplethink about people's attitudes
(08:15):
about diversity and diversifyingtheir organizations have a huge
impact on hiring.
So that's what I mean when Isay my work is DEI adjacent.
Two things One, here in MadisonI'm a business consultant.
Employers sometimes come to meand sometimes come to recruiters
and say hey, peter, I'm a whiteCEO, I have an all-white
(08:37):
leadership team.
We are a mostly white workforcein our company and we are
interested in and motivated to,diversify our organization, make
it look more like America.
Now we have an empty seat atthe leadership table.
We want to use that as anopportunity to diversify our
leadership team.
So that's a conversation that Ifound coming to me and I
(09:00):
thought to myself oh, I reallyneed to improve my competencies
and my skills to be able torespond to that conversation.
And that's look, that's betterthan nothing when someone comes
to a recruiter with thatconversation.
But sometimes it's morestrategic and thoughtful than
that.
Sometimes it's kind ofsuperficial, like, oh, we have
an empty chair, let's use thatas an opportunity to diversify
(09:21):
our hiring.
Of course, it's better if theemployer is being more
thoughtful and strategic andtaking a more holistic approach.
So, dee, that's one thing.
As I like I said, I wanted toimprove my skills and my
competencies around helpingemployers diversify their hiring
.
I had a light bulb moment whenI discovered that LinkedIn,
(09:42):
which is the biggest you knowonline and software tool that
employers use for recruiting andhiring, has a ton of systemic
bias just baked right into it.
So I was trying to help thoseemployers diversify their hiring
outcomes and the primary tool Iwas using was LinkedIn.
I was struggling and that'swhen I realized that, that I
(10:03):
realized that LinkedIn has a lotof bias issues in the way that
LinkedIn is organized and theway we use it.
So my again, I'm not a DEIconsultant.
So again, I'm not a DEIconsultant.
My biggest sort of move inhelping employers diversify
hiring outcomes is recognizingthat LinkedIn is biased and if
(10:24):
we change how we use LinkedIn,we can change that.
We can flip LinkedIn from nothelping us diversify hiring
outcomes to helping us diversifyhiring outcomes in the people
we're finding in LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
So I don't want to give away too much of your
secrets because I know it's alot of secret sauce in there.
You do serve on the Boys andGirls Clubs board and have won
multiple community serviceawards.
How has community involvementshaped your perspective on
leadership?
Oh boy, Well, d.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
First of all, I love the Boys and Girls Clubs.
You know I went to the Boys andGirls Clubs growing up as a kid
, so this is an organizationthat I, that I you know, helped
shape me, that I have a love forI'm also people who know me in
Madison and in Wisconsin knowthat I'm a big cyclist too.
So when I got to Madison,wisconsin, and discovered that
the local Boys and Girls Clubs,that its annual fundraiser, was
(11:18):
a big bike event, I was likegreat, count me in, I'm in and
we're going back 20 years.
But first couple of yearssigned up and participated in
that event and my kids did, andthey asked me to be on the event
planning committee.
And one thing led to anotherand then I chaired that summer
fundraising event campaign forseveral years At the same time
and also I got to help recruitMichael Johnson to Madison and I
(11:42):
think the world of him, andit's a real honor to serve on
his board.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I didn't even know that you were the person that
recruited Michael Johnson.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I wasn't the person who recruited Michael Johnson.
It was actually anotherrecruiter at the firm I was at.
I was there, so I have knownMichael Johnson from day one.
That he's been in Madison, butokay, we'll see.
If Michael hears this, michaelsometimes likes to say I
recruited him to Madison.
That's a little exaggeration,but I was there when we
recruited him to Madison at myfirm.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So you're guilty by association.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yes, at the firm that I worked at at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yes, guilty by association.
Blame me.
Absolutely Well, after peoplehear this, they're going to be
like.
So that's the guy.
So I wanted to talk aboutbiases in the hiring process.
So biases in the hiring processis a huge issue.
What are some of the mostcommon biases you've seen and
(12:36):
how do they affect hiringoutcomes?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
D, bias in hiring is a huge issue and the different
dimensions of bias that I see.
For the most part they don'teven have names, they go unnamed
so I try to name them.
I feel like the biggest biasthat I see, the biggest one of
all, is a bias that I call roundpeg bias.
Right, we all think likeemployers think of their job
(13:03):
openings as round holes.
They're looking for round pegsthat fit in those round holes.
Bias just means that anemployer generally has a picture
in their mind of who they seefor this job, like literally who
they see, maybe, what kind ofperson they are and what they
look like.
But also boxes they check onpaper.
(13:24):
And when someone applies forone of those jobs or interviews
for it, employers, I feel likein their brains they do this
thing where they go okay, intheir brains they do this thing
where they go okay, how closelydo you look like my preconceived
notion and that's round pegbias.
There are a lot of others, butI feel like that covers a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So how do you see the future of DEI?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
evolving in hiring and leadership.
D I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know Because it's a lot
going on.
Right now it is.
We're in a very interestingmoment.
A lot is happening and changingfast.
You know, in this country wetake steps forward and then we
have a reaction, we take stepsback.
I don't have a crystal ball, Idon't know.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Just to be honest, I felt like DEI.
There was a time that it wasclear, cut and defined what it
was.
And then, once it started totake off, I felt like it just
got so murky that people kind oflost what it was all about in
the first place.
And then it was like all ofthis new DEI it used to be DEI,
(14:34):
then it's not the new dei, andthen I just feel like it's.
It keeps updating, updating,updating what it is, and now I
think it's updating again, Ithink it's shifting again and I
just think that there's a lot ofconfusion.
We don't, I don't know whereit's going to go from here,
because it's just so murky.
I don't even If I was to saydefine DEI for me and you could
(15:01):
give me your take on it, butthen when you look at the main
recipients of DEI, then it'slike, okay, is this what you see
, what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, maybe I think so.
It's hard to define and I don'tknow where it's going.
I just D I have to believe thatcompanies and employers win in
the marketplace and atdelivering their services when
they look more like America,when they look more like the
(15:33):
society that they're a part of.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I've seen a study on that that says that companies
thrive more when they have amore diverse workforce.
I've seen them too yeah.
Because of the differentthought patterns and different
ideas and different cultures andhow people share information
different cultures and howpeople share information.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
It unlocks creativity and innovation and it makes
companies better able to reachdifferent markets of people.
And I also have to believe thatour communities win when all
kinds of people in ourcommunities are doing all kinds
of work and doing all kinds ofthings and mixing it up with
(16:14):
each other right.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Right, and that's what I was saying.
Like you know, about the DEIthing, it's like I thought it
was for one thing, but then whenI see the outcomes and how much
the outcomes has changed fromwhat they said it was originally
for, I get confused, to behonest.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, they say okay, there's something that I've
heard which I don't know if thisis what you're saying
Affirmative action was conceived, as I understand it, to benefit
primarily people of color,Correct, and they say that
primary beneficiaries ended upbeing mostly-.
White women, white women, right.
So I don't know, maybe that'swhat you're saying.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That's exactly what I'm saying, and White women
Right.
So I don't know.
Maybe that's what you're saying.
That's exactly what I'm saying,and maybe I shouldn't have
danced around that.
Maybe I should have just beenmore direct with that, and I
apologize to the audience forthat, because I don't feel like
I should have to speak in code.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's all good, but you're right, we don't know
where this stuff is going.
We don't know where this stuffis going and we can talk about
meritocracy in theory.
In reality, it's kind of messedup because not everyone's had
the same access over generations.
So, just like you know, talkingabout the, you know the example
that you know, banks love tohire bankers who are
(17:26):
multi-generational bankers.
Well, you know what?
There aren't that manymulti-generational bankers who
aren't white men.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And just to prove my theory of what I was saying is
when a company comes to you andsay, hey, we have this open seat
, we're looking to diversify, sowe want a DI hire.
I don't think they'll probablysay a DI hire, but you get it
right Is the first thing thatyou're thinking of when you're
having that conversation is awhite woman.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
No, not at all.
No, usually, when people comewith that intentional
conversation, they're generally,generally that's a white leader
who wants to hire the company'sfirst leadership team member of
color.
I think that example aboutaffirmative action benefiting
white women more than people ofcolor I feel like that's.
(18:14):
I mean, affirmative action goesback to what like the 80s or
even earlier 60s.
I feel like that's that playedout, and I feel like I do feel
like many of our industries aremore have more gender balance, a
lot more gender balance thanthey used to, more so than
racial diversity.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Some companies are scaling back DEI efforts.
What's your response to criticswho say DEI is no longer a
priority?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think it is a priority and I think there are
different cases.
There's a moral case, there's abusiness case.
I feel like it makes sense forsomeone who is a critic, who
thinks DEI shouldn't be apriority.
I think it actually makes senseto lead with the business case
and show that employers thathave more creativity and
(19:04):
innovation on your team andbeing able to reach a broader,
more diverse customer base.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
And just to slide off a little bit.
You know I was thinking I'mlike man, you do so much for the
Boys and Girls Club.
I didn't put this on our sheet,but I wanted to get your views
about mentorship and howimportant it is to you and how
do you feel like.
Did mentorship play a part inyour success?
Part in your success.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
It did.
It did to some degree.
I mean I was.
I grew up in a home where, youknow, my parents went to college
.
I was the youngest of four kids.
We were expected to advance tocollege, where I see tremendous
mentorship impact at the boysand girls clubs.
I've been a tops mentor and andI'm now a mentor through rotary
of a rotary.
(20:05):
Scholar is scholar is mentoringkids for whom that might not be
the story.
You know young people, highschoolers, who might be first
person in their family to beapplying to college.
It's confusing, man.
It is the applications,financial aid, choosing a school
.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It is confusing and that mentorship really is really
an important, important thingthe Boys and Girls Club does,
you know it's funny because yousaid it was kind of like your
mother and father went tocollege and they told you you
know, it's pretty much expected.
You know you don't really havea choice.
You're gonna go, and I alwaystell my kids you don't have to
(20:46):
know what you're going to go for, I just want you to go.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I feel the same way and at the same time D I'm also
opening myself to a betterunderstanding that college isn't
for everyone and that we needto have great life and career
pathways for people who don'tchoose college and college isn't
for them, and I'm glad we'redoing that.
You can see the Boys and GirlsClubs doing that with the
McKenzie Regional WorkforceCenter and focus on trades
(21:12):
education.
You know we have a big laborshortage in the trades.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, we're going to get hurt here soon if we don't
get on that.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, we're getting hurt now.
I mean, did you ever have youhad an emergency call to a
plumber or an electrician?
Yeah, Just recently.
Oh yeah, I hope someone wasable to come promptly.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, but it cost me big time.
You know, we're talking aboutthe emergency calls, like 450.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
You know, just for them to come in and not taking
away from anything that they do.
But I was like man.
If I would have known just topull this lever, I would have
saved myself $450,000.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
We have a big shortage, and I mean John
McKenzie has talked about this.
You know he is a real estatedeveloper.
He and his family business isapartment buildings, so he
builds buildings and it's hardfor builders to build on
schedule because they havetrouble staffing their
construction sites and theirtrades.
(22:11):
And he's gotten up and talkedabout the fact that a bunch of
pretty much white men got intothese trades, set up unions,
made it harder for the nextgeneration to get in after them,
and now they're aging out ofthe game and they're not being
no one's backfilling thembecause it's hard to get into
the trades and so we need tomake it easier to get into the
(22:33):
trade, and people recognize this.
We need to make it easier toget into the trades and we need
to be making the trades moreaccessible to more young people,
including and especially ouryoung people, who college might
not be for them.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
But I also think that I want to tell the kids that if
they think that college isn'tfor you, that it's never too
late to change your mind,because I thought college wasn't
for me until I went and I lovedit and I was a 4.0 student and
I was assistant to the dean andI loved it and I was a 4.0
(23:07):
student and I was assistant tothe dean and I started the chess
club.
I started just so manydifferent programs and got so
many different opportunities andI never thought that I would go
to college.
I was like I'm not going tocollege.
I didn't even like high schoolthat much and as time went past,
it's like I started collegelate.
I went to college at 26.
(23:29):
I just don't want people tothink that just because you feel
like right now that collegeisn't for you, don't close your
mind forever, because you canalways go back.
But the trades is a greatalternative, if not, in some
cases, a better alternative thancollege, because a lot of times
(23:51):
when you go to college you havean idea of what you want to do,
but nine times out of 10,that's not probably what you're
going to end up doing.
But with the trades is, onceyou get into the trades, you're
instantly making money doingwhat it is that you say that you
want to do.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yes, you are.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
A significant amount of money to take care of a
family or take care of yourselfversus going to college.
And now you're paying a bunchof money.
You'll never hear theDepartment of Labor workforce
saying hey, we have too manyplumbers and carpenters and
roofers.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, no time soon.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
No time soon.
So a lawyer, yeah, you know,with the emergence of AI, Well,
here's what I heard said aboutAI.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Your job is not going to be taken away by AI.
Your job may be taken bysomebody who does what you do
and knows how to use AI.
So I'm trying to learn how touse.
I'm trying to get better atusing AI in my business as a
recruiter.
There are some different waysDo you use AI?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I was afraid of AI at first because I was like, I was
just afraid.
You know, because, like yousaid, like you were having that
imposter syndrome, I had thesame thing.
I'm like I'm not smart enoughto use this, I don't know what
I'm doing.
But as I got more and morecomfortable with it, I find
myself leaning into it a lotmore.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I'm starting with.
You know I use Zoom a lot.
I'm just trying to get betterat using the AI tools that are
now built into Zoom.
You can capture a transcriptand you can actually you can
have an AI summary of a Zoomcall.
And I just so Dee, in fact,just yesterday, of a Zoom call,
and I just so Dee, in fact, justyesterday or two days ago, I
(25:31):
sent my first AI summary of acall to the group that I was on
the call with.
But I also learned I shouldn'thave just grabbed the summary
and sent it without reading itfirst, because it summarized the
whole call and the first fewminutes.
We started with small talk andsomeone was like, yeah, I was
like, oh you, oh, did you get ahaircut?
Your hair looks great.
And oh, and we just took afamily trip and went all these
places, and that was in thesummary too.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So that reminds me of one of my favorite shows, the
Office, yeah, and there was ascene when he was like they were
doing this called the nights ofthe night, and they were going
over the minutes from last weekand he was, like, you know, just
saying all of this like justcrazy stuff, like, oh yeah, we
(26:17):
tested out our flashlights andwe did this and we did this.
It's just like little stuff.
I was like it's really funny.
But yeah, I had to learn thatthe hard way too.
Like you need to actually readit, like it'll do a lot for you,
but you need to manage it.
You know you still need to goin there and okay, sorry, I kind
(26:38):
of went down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It's all good, you know, this is stuff we're all
dealing with every day.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So if you could change one thing about how
hiring is done today, what wouldit be?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well D.
I would like to see employersovercome that, those biases, and
particularly that round pegbias, and just open their minds
to hiring differently.
I feel like the biggest changethat that would that that
wouldn't be needed is you shouldhire someone who's right for
your business, who cares aboutthe work that you do, even if
(27:09):
they don't have a certainspecific experience-based skill.
My experience as a recruiter isemployers don't want to hire
people to train them to do thework that they're hiring for.
That's why there are recruiters, that's why I have a job,
because employers they don'twant to hire someone who's a
good learner and is willing tolearn.
They want to hire someone whoalready knows it and often they
(27:32):
want to hire someone who's readyto teach it, and that's why
they're coming to me.
And coming to recruiters isbecause they have a knowledge
gap.
They don't know how to dosomething.
So let's hire someone in whocan teach us how to do the thing
we don't know how to do.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
So what's next for Peter Gray?
Executive Search, recruiting,social impact leaders.
What is next for the company?
What is?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
next Well, d, okay, so I've been a recruiter for a
long time.
Peter Gray Executive Search isfive years old.
Okay, I launched it at the verybeginning of the pandemic.
I feel very fortunate.
I've had great success.
I'm having a lot of fun, Ithink next about do I stay Peter
Gray Executive Search?
(28:15):
Because I'm solo, it's just meand I actually enjoy it and I
think I'm pretty good at it.
But I wonder if I should begetting together with some
others to form a bigger firm.
I don't know where I'm goingwith that, but that's something
I think about.
So have like a super packed ofpeople that can find you.
So maybe, but it's like I thinkmore about just how it would
(28:36):
affect my work, because I don'taspire to like lead a big team
and have people working for me,but if I'm teamed up with other
colleagues who do what I do, wecould support each other.
We could share the work.
When one of us is busy, one ofus who's less busy could help
them out.
We might have some backendprocesses and resources that we
could leverage together.
That's more what I think about.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So how can people get in contact with you?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
You can always find me on LinkedIn, peter Gray, and
you can find me through mywebsite, petergraysearchcom, and
my website has a contact formright there on it.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Well, Peter, thank you so much for stopping by the
podcast.
We really appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
D.
I love what you do, I love thepodcast, so thank you for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Absolutely, I'm D Star Until next time, guys.
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