June 20, 2024 • 26 mins
What does it mean to bring joy back to childbirth? Join us for an illuminating conversation with Uchenna Jones, recognized as one of Wisconsin's 51 most influential leaders of 2023. Uchenna's journey from aspiring doctor to accomplished doula and upcoming midwife is inspiring. With roots deeply embedded in her Nigerian heritage and bolstered by her extensive experience in healthcare, Uchenna discusses the vital role of doulas in labor support, particularly in combating the historical mistreatment of Black women in obstetrics. She passionately advocates for birth as a joyous and sacred rite of passage.
Delve into the harrowing realities faced by birthing individuals, including those shackled in prisons, and the emotional and physical trauma they endure. We discuss the importance of freedom of movement during labor and the detrimental impact of restrictive practices. Through powerful stories, including the births of Tupac and Minister Eugene Smalls, Uchena highlights the profound effect on both mother and child. She emphasizes empowering birthing people to trust their instincts and the transformative role of doulas and nurses in creating positive birth experiences. Personal anecdotes reveal the deep emotional transformations that birth can bring, not just for mothers but for fathers, too.
Uchenna shares her spiritual journey through 22 years of doula work, from the emotional strength of mothers during labor to her transition into nursing, driven by a desire to blend holistic care with medical expertise. As a Black woman in the doula profession, she navigates unique challenges and leverages her Nigerian heritage to enrich her practice. The episode wraps up with a focus on personalized prenatal care and the essential involvement of birth partners, ensuring every birthing experience is supported and joyous. This is a must-listen for anyone interested in the transformative power of birth and the crucial role of compassionate care.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up everybody.
This is your host D-Star herewith Uchena Jones.
Uchena Jones, the 2023.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
51 most influential leaders in Wisconsin Say that
twice Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you, D-Star.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So for the people that don't know you, can you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
My name again, uchena Jones.
I am the daughter of twoNigerian parents.
I am a college graduate fromthe University of
Wisconsin-Madison, I'm also anurse, I'm also an author, I'm
also a doula and I'm currentlyin the process of being a
midwife.
And, last but not least, I workat United Way of Dane County as
(00:46):
the Community Impact Directorof Health.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And a mother.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm a wife.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
A wife, wife, mother of three babies.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And a community leader.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, all that stuff, you know it's so hard to keep up
, it's so hard to keep up.
So please, you know, bear withme guys.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So what inspired you to become a doula and how did
your journey lead you to thisprofession?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
My journey started.
This year We'll make 22 yearsof providing active doula
support to expectant mothers,birthing people in Madison, dane
County community and it's beena joy.
And how it started it startedwith I've always wanted to be in
healthcare.
Wasn't sure exactly what Iwanted to be and looking at the
different professions and kindof inspired by Bill Cosby you
(01:31):
know he was an OBGYNobstetrician delivering babies
and I'm like that's a dope job.
I would love to deliver babies.
Never thought in my wildestdreams that nothing bad could
actually happen with havingbabies.
So what did I do?
I'm looking, I'm researching.
I learned about midwives, Ilearned about nurses, but I
really at the time wanted to bea doctor.
Then, as I go to school andyou're looking at those grades
(01:54):
and you're like, okay, all right, I'm not getting A's in every
class now, so what are otheropportunities to still get in
that space?
So I ended up getting my firstdegree and realized that I had
to you know, work hard, get theGPA up.
So I was inquiring about maybewhat about midwifery school?
You know that's also anotherbeautiful field I didn't look
(02:14):
into.
I was always tracked on being adoctor and what ended up
happening is I found a woman inFlorida can't even remember her
name.
I was like, hmm, if I talk toher I need to figure out how she
got those letters, because itsaid that she was like a direct
entry.
So she did an apprenticeshipstyle, became a midwife.
But she was also a certifiednurse midwife, which is pretty
much having after your nursingdegree you go back to school and
(02:39):
then you get a master's degreein midwifery.
But I'm like she got both, so Iunfortunately didn't get her, I
got her secretary and hersecretary was in the process of
getting certified as a doula.
So when I was talking to hersharing my interests, and she
said before you even think youcould call yourself going into
medicine, you need to watchwomen labor.
And I'm like, ok, how do I dothat and I'm just only got my
(03:01):
undergrad she said you need towatch women birth, you need to
become a doula.
So a stranger in Floridaignited my journey.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, so what exactly is a doula?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So a doula is a support person and not just a
support person I mean cause itjust makes it so mundane but
it's a labor support person.
It could be a man or a womanthat is in the birthing space to
provide support for thatexpected mother, for that
birthing person, help themnavigate through their pregnancy
, through labor and throughpostpartum to have a beautiful,
(03:35):
great birthing experience butalso kind of enter into
parenthood in a way that I thinkI believe all individuals who
want to expand their familyshould enter in.
In the past, the role in whichnurses had was, like, really
critical.
Like in some ways they werelike the original doulas, but
with added healthcare systems,responsibilities, all these
different things.
(03:55):
Nurses no longer stayed withthe birthing person.
Instead they're doing a lot ofadministrative stuff.
So this whole profession wasbirthed out of a lack.
But in other indigenous cultures, in African cultures, if you
look at older countries, there'salways that older, senior mom
or the midwife in the communitythat held that space that
(04:18):
ushered in all these new babiesinto the world.
This is where birthing peoplewent to go get their care, all
these different things, and evenin some respects around the
world it still happened, but inthe United States it's more
medicalized, most babies areborn in the hospital, so we're
losing those connections.
So doulas kind of like werebirthed out of that lack and you
(04:40):
know, hold that sacred space,kind of piecing all those things
together.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
So, as a doula, what unique perspectives or insights
do you bring to the birthingprocess, particularly as a
female black doula?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
One of the things that I desire as being a doula
is bringing joy back to birth.
If you look at the history, ifyou do the research, if you take
the time to find out how familypractice came about, how
obstetric gynecology came aboutin some respects it was the
(05:14):
mistreatment of black women,black slaves, and they
(05:42):
medicalize birth in such a waythat it's a disease rather than
a process, rather than a rite ofpassage, rather than.
This is how the next generationcomes forward and we should be
excited.
And the perspective that I wantto bring back is it's a
beautiful thing, it's a joyousthing to see what the next
generation looks like and,particularly for that birthing
person's family, it is somethingto be celebrated, not to feel
shame for.
Now, grant, not everybody'sbirth story is good, so I don't
(06:07):
want to paint this picture likeevery birth, every baby being
born is just beautiful, butunderstanding the magnitude of
that child coming in and how weneed to prepare and usher and
handle that birth person andtheir support person and their
family with such grace, beingable to lean in and give them
the support they need so that,as they transition into
(06:28):
parenthood on Earth's side, thatthey can handle what comes
their way, as they're raisingthat child.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
It's very interesting that I just learned that women
in prison were being shackledwhile they were giving birth
here in Wisconsin and I just Icouldn't even imagine what they
went through or how they felt,because when I was with my wife,
when she was having a baby, shewas up, she was walking, she
(06:59):
was so, you know, uncomfortable,just trying to get comfortable.
You need to be able to movearound, you need to be able to.
You need to be able to move,because that's the part of the
process, right?
You?
need to like get up, walk aroundand things like that.
And then some you know youmight be comfortable in this
position but in two seconds youmight need to switch it because
(07:19):
the baby's moving and thingslike that.
So for you to be shackled isjust like that's just against
everything.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
What people don't understand is okay.
You just acknowledged thatbirthing people have to move
right, because the baby'sactually telling mom, I need you
to move because I'm notcomfortable.
And guess what?
They're not comfortable.
So denying a birthing personthe right to birth the way they
need to, it's almost like you'resetting that child up for
(07:49):
failure right from the jump.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
A lot of trauma for both of them.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And it's being transferred in real time.
All the hormones is beingreleased the anxiety, the
anxiousness, pain, the shame.
That's a direct transfer to thegeneration that's being birthed
in a little while.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Tupac was born in prison.
Wow, I didn't know that I hadanother gentleman that was here.
His name was Eugene Smalls.
Wow, and he was a minister.
Excuse me, Minister, eugeneSmalls, he was born in prison.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Did he ever get to talk about the impact?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, he talked about it.
I don't think that ever leavesyou just knowing that
information.
Like man, I was born in ahospital in prison.
I wasn't born in a hospital, Iwas born in an infirmary inside
of a in prison.
I wasn't born in a hospital, Iwas born in an infirmary inside
of a state prison.
I was like wow, and then heended up going to prison.
(08:52):
So it was like you know, it'slike the cycle.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Exactly.
And in order for us to break it, we really got to pay attention
to the origin right and makingsure that birthing people are
handled with such care thatmothers get to be heard and we
get to support them on theirterms.
Not what the doctor says, notwhat the nurse says, not even
(09:18):
what the doula suggests, butinternally I strongly believe
that birthing people mothersthey know instinctively what it
is that they need and our job isto empower them to use their
voice.
That is where they get thefoundation of parenting.
They carried that child foralmost nine, 10 months, 40 weeks
(09:41):
, and now the world is going totell them how they ought to
raise their child?
I don't think so, but we robbedthem of that opportunity to be
heard, to advocate for theirchild.
So my job is to bring joy back,to let them know, to trust
themselves, and my job is tojust cheer you on to the finish
(10:04):
line.
You know I like to see myselfas a guardian of birth.
I didn't realize that, you know, and I'm unapologetic about it.
And it's a joyful time, it's anexciting time to see what the
new generation is not onlycoming forth with, but what do
they look like?
Whose personalities Are theyreaching out back to grandma,
(10:25):
you know, so-and-so, or auntieso-and-so, or great-great you
know, and the stories that willcome forth?
What is the information andtheir knowledge that they're
coming with, that they're aboutto share with us?
A lot of people you know, evenlike in child psychology and
child development, even like inchild psychology and child
development.
You know there's this wholething about nature versus
(10:47):
nurture.
What is so dope is these beings.
They know things.
They know things and if we slowourselves down, we get to know
what they know, if we learn howthey communicate.
And it's just such an amazingthing to see.
And I've been learning that andtracking that, in not even
(11:10):
realizing it, over these 22years.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
The impact that it has on the father, also during
the birthing process.
I was just talking to someoneearlier today and we were kind
of swapping stories about birthstories which is crazy because
men usually don't do that.
But we were talking about men'smental health, the toll that it
takes on a man, and he said Ihad a doula and my doula let me
(11:34):
sleep.
I was like my doula, let mesleep too he was like I don't
know what I would have didwithout her, like she was great
and just a great experience.
And he's had a couple of kidsbut he was like this last one he
had.
It was with the doula and itwas just.
It was a totally differentexperience.
Can you share any memorableexperiences or stories from your
(11:56):
work as a doula that deeplyimpacted you?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I got to start off with my first birth, and that
was again.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
You've actually helped deliver over a thousand
babies, you said.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yes, in my 22 years.
So what makes it even easier todo is when you become a nurse.
So I became a nurse seven yearsafter being a doula and I felt
like I needed more knowledge.
I needed more knowledge becauseit was very interesting the
dynamics that were playing inthe room and there was times
that I was mistreated in thepresence of my client and I
really felt like there was aknowledge gap.
(12:27):
Also, I wasn't I never had anychildren at that time, you know.
So I be.
I did my doula training in 2002.
I didn't get married till 2012.
So you can see, there's a10-year gap where I am just
literally what I read and thentaking care of birthing people
and putting all those piecestogether.
But something shifted when Ibecame pregnant and I just
(12:51):
started to go back and I'm like,oh my gosh, I should not have
said that.
I should have done thisdifferently, and I realized that
that was an experience, thatwas something that I needed to
strengthen my practice.
But before that moment I feltlike I needed to become a nurse
to know more, because some ofthe things that I would do or
some of the things I would say,the nurse will minimize it or it
(13:12):
will be like a competition.
So I said you know what?
Let me find out what the otherside is thinking of.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I've seen that firsthand in the hospital.
It's like they're respected butnot respected.
But you know, it's like thisweird thing.
The nurses feel like whatthey're saying has to take
precedent over the doula, butthen the doula is like no, I've
been with them since day one.
I know her, I know way more andfrom you're reading it from a
(13:41):
chart, I'm doing this off ofexperience.
You know, and I've deliveredmore babies than you Exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Exactly, but I do my best to recognize and understand
and this is the part that Ilearned as a nurse is that we're
a team and we're all here tohelp this birthing person have
an amazing experience, thismother to have an amazing
experience with her supportperson and all that stuff.
Now, I can't guarantee that theoutcome will be exactly what
they want, but I can guaranteethat they will feel the support
(14:12):
and love and encouragement thatI know I can do and whatever
information I can pass along tomake sure they can make an
informed decision.
That is what I'm going to do,you know, and I'm going to
advocate like crazy to make surethat their voice is being heard
, because a lot of times youknow when you are in that space
(14:32):
you're helping mothers havebabies all day long.
You already have a formed ideaof how this process is going to
go.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Right and you forget that everybody is different.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Exactly.
Every family is different.
It's the same situation Ababy's going to be born, but we
don't know all the details.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And a kid never know.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Exactly.
So I started to adopt this ideaof you know what, if this is
their first birth, it's going tobe my first birth too.
If this is their second, it'smy second.
I'm going to adjust, but I knowthat I'm an empty vessel.
So when I come into that sacredspace, all my issues, what I
think about anything, is at thedoor.
(15:12):
I am of service to my client.
I'm of service to the patient.
I am of service to my client.
I'm of service to the patientand my job is to empower them
with whatever that they thinkthey need to get to the finish
line, and that is to meet thenew generation, to meet their
baby.
The thing that blows my mindthat we don't talk enough about
is that birth is spiritual.
(15:33):
Or when does flesh wrap itselfaround spirit, around a soul,
you know?
And if we understand themagnitude of that, maybe we will
handle the person who?
And people think oh yes, thecenter of the universe is
outside of us.
I discovered in my 22 years thecenter of the universe is
within that mom, it's withinthat birthing person and it has
(15:57):
to pass through them, passthrough her, so that we can meet
.
This is no stork dropping ababy out the sky.
It's passing through a wholenother human being who's still
living.
We have to really sit with that.
How are we going to handle, ifwe don't handle?
(16:18):
The mom, well.
The birthing person, well,what's happening to that child?
Have to really sit with that.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
How are we going to handle if we don't handle?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
the mom, well.
The birthing person, well,what's happening to that child?
So your first birth?
Yes, so my first birth, thankyou.
22 years ago, because it wasactually in January, I was a
brand new nurse.
I read all the things.
I'm ready, I'm ready 27 hoursWow.
Of continuous care, 27 hours.
We had a false start actually.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
So you were a nurse at this time.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
No.
Oh, you were a doula, a doula.
I didn't become a nurse until2009.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I know a nurse will switch shifts.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
But a doula, well, a one will stay until yes or get
some relief.
Three days they'll stay therewith you?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
yes, that was that.
I was that doula of yesterday,you know, providing that
continuous support and it wasgood to do, because I didn't
have no boyfriend.
I had no husband, I had no kids.
Um, as I progressed then I hadto.
But what was so interestingabout that first birth, even
with everything that I read,even what I was trying to do, I
(17:24):
was having serious issues withthe nurse.
The nurse will say, well, it'snot that hard, it's not that
hard, it shouldn't hurt thatmuch.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Well then, if it's hurting that much, then maybe
that's a sign that something'swrong.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, or ask her the right questions, like where does
it hurt?
How can I help you, really?
And I was watching the way shewould interact.
And when she was gone, I askedmy client like, how do you feel?
She couldn't articulate thatshe was having issues with the
nurse, but you could tell thatshe was feeling she had low
(17:58):
self-esteem, she was feelingdefeated, she doesn't, she
didn't feel like she wasprogressing.
And I'm like, yes, you are.
You just got to give your bodypermission to allow itself to
open up and it's going to taketime.
This is your first time.
So, mind you, no baby, noexperience for me as a mom, but
I'm going based on what I readand when, at some point during
(18:20):
that labor, she mustered up somecourage and strength, she went
through all the different phasesyou go through where you feel
like, okay, I got this becausethe pain is not that bad.
Then the pain gets really bad.
But I was so proud of her.
She didn't get an epidural eventhough the pressure was on 27
hours.
But no epidural.
She did the tub.
We tried different positionsand then every time they checked
(18:41):
her, she made progress, shemade progress and now it's time
to push.
And when baby Sophia came, ohmy gosh, I was like I can do
this, I can do this.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Everybody cries.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh, yes, everybody cried, but I didn't cry when the
baby came.
I cried when, in the mother'smost vulnerable state, she
looked at her partner and shesaid, no matter what, even if it
means I die, having your babylike she had no regrets.
That had me tearing up likecrazy and he's like you're not
(19:18):
going to die, it's going to beokay.
But I don't know if he reallyfelt that, but he gave her what
she needed.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
And now they're celebrating.
Baby Sophia is here, the nextgeneration is here, and I am
like, how can this not besomething you want to do all the
time?
And I'm like trying to figureout how do I keep coming back to
the space and place you know?
So then I made it my mission.
Okay, all right, let me figureout how I can get more clients,
let me see who I can help.
(19:46):
Let me put the word out there,you know, but again, internet
wasn't what it was.
Then I didn't have no website.
I didn't know about having abusiness, but it was word of
mouth that I started to.
For the most part in the earlyyears I did a lot of college
students, you know, differentbackgrounds, different races, it
didn't matter.
I just needed to be in thatspace to learn what I needed to
learn.
I needed to pay attention tothe dynamics and then, when I
(20:09):
started to build my confidence,I said I need more knowledge.
So then I went back to schooland became a nurse because I
needed to know what they knewand didn't realize that I'm a
unicorn.
There's a lot of doulas who aredoulas.
There are nurses who becomedoulas, but it's not quite
common to be a doula and go onto be a nurse.
Even as a nurse I didn't dothings like my colleagues
(20:32):
because I had a doula brain, Ihad a doula heart about work.
I didn't use medications likeeverybody did.
It's there.
But because I saw birth, Iunderstood the physiological
process of birth and that ittakes time.
I fought for that, I advocatedfor that.
Whether they were my patient ormy client, same care.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So what are some of the challenges you face as a
black woman in the doulaprofession and how have you
overcome them?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I don't know if I overcome them, but I have
learned to work with them.
Some of the challenges is justthe fact that I'm black.
A lot of people who may know me.
I'm 6'1", so when I walk in theroom it's like who is she?
What is she about to do?
I always have to have myselfmentally ready and prepared.
Mentally ready, prepared to beundermined, disrespected.
(21:20):
I don't know how many times Icame into the birthing space and
say I'm the doula and they say,oh, that's the patient's sister
.
Or if I find them doingsomething that I don't agree
with because, guess what, I'malso a labor and delivery nurse.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So I know the process , you know the procedure.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I don't know how many times I had to pull that card
and say, well, right up thestreet, I am also a labor and
delivery nurse and can I ask youa little bit more questions,
Cause I don't understand why youare taking that course with
this, particular with my client.
You know that kind of thing.
The other thing about doulasthe Trump card right, Right,
(21:55):
right.
I keep it in my back pocket.
I don't always have to use it,but I do a lot of observing and
my job is to make sure, likeasking the mom, the birthing
person did all your questionsget answered?
Do you feel safe?
Do you feel supported?
I don't know how many times Iwalked in the room and the
birthing person tells me, youknow what, the fact that you
(22:16):
walked in here, they're caringfor me better, what?
I didn't even say anything.
I didn't do anything.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Everything changed.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And everything changed.
They didn't see me, they didn'tcome around, but they start
showing up.
When you showed up and Istarted to pay attention to that
.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
And I'm like, wow, this is crazy.
Which leads me to my nextquestion how do you approach
supporting Black mothers,specifically considering the
disparities and challenges theymay face in the health care
system?
Because we know the statisticsfor Wisconsin it is like the
worst place in the country to bea woman of color having a baby.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yes, it's one of the worst states and our outcomes
are not necessarily the greatestand the best, but I feel like
every time I put my foot downand I go on to the unit and I'm
providing care for that client,that's me combating that number,
that's me working against thatstatistic.
Now, keep in mind I'm only one.
So one of the things I've hadthe privilege of doing and being
(23:17):
has become a doula trainer.
So now I get to train otherpeople with the knowledge and
the skill set that I have sothey can go into the birthing
space and be able to providesimilar support, if not better,
because I like to think in the22 years I've gotten better.
(23:38):
It's not easy being an advocateand it's not easy always feeling
like you have to fight.
So it's really, reallyimportant that in this work that
we do, we do some self-care,because there's a lot of things
that happen, like moral injurywhen you see something and it's
like, or some obstetric violencewhere you know rights were
(24:01):
taken away.
A birthing person didn't get toinformally consent to something
, but they felt that it wasimportant right now and override
that birthing person's concernand, as a result, led to moral
injury.
Something happened.
You know it doesn't have tonecessarily result in the death
of a child right but it's aninjury that turns and becomes
(24:25):
trauma very quickly that canimpact that birthing person,
that mother's ability to havemore children in what ways do
you integrate cultural practicesand traditions into your doula
work, particularly within theblack community?
So, like I mentioned in thebeginning, I am the daughter of
Nigerian parents and I was bornand raised I didn't include that
(24:46):
part.
I was born and raised in NewYork City.
I have a husband who's fromLouisiana, so I've gotten to
learn a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
The dirty dirty yes.
Does he still have his accent.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Only when he's, you know, pressed, you know, but for
the most part if he's happy andgo lucky, he won't catch it.
But there's a moth.
It might be a different story.
But one of the things that I'vecome to learn is when I am
interacting and I'm meeting myclients and working with them at
least in prenatal, because it'svery different when you're a
nurse, you just get what you get, your assignment.
But when I have the opportunityto get a client, I like to spend
(25:20):
time to get a sense of who theyare, what they like, what
matters to them, what are theirexpectations of their birth
experience, how is theirpregnancy going, who is their
support and how can I be ofservice.
So if some of the descriptivenature is I want, like, some
mothering where I get to reallynurture, then that's what I do.
(25:40):
I nurture.
If I mean even like setting upthe room so that it's welcoming.
Okay, well, let's plan that,you know.
Did you get your gown thatyou're going to wear as you
welcome this new life?
Did you get your hair done?
What self-care things are youdoing?
Talking to the birth partner,what concerns do you have and
how can I be of help?
How would you like me tosupport you as well, because you
(26:02):
guys are a team.
What's up everybody.
This is your host D-Star herewith Uchena Jones.
Uchena Jones, the 2023.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
51 most influential leaders in Wisconsin Say that
twice Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you, D-Star.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So for the people that don't know you, can you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
My name again, uchena Jones.
I am the daughter of twoNigerian parents.
I am a college graduate fromthe University of
Wisconsin-Madison, I'm also anurse, I'm also an author, I'm
also a doula and I'm currentlyin the process of being a
midwife.
And, last but not least, I workat United Way of Dane County as
(00:46):
the Community Impact Directorof Health.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And a mother.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm a wife.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
A wife, wife, mother of three babies.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And a community leader.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, all that stuff, you know it's so hard to keep up
, it's so hard to keep up.
So please, you know, bear withme guys.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So what inspired you to become a doula and how did
your journey lead you to thisprofession?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
My journey started.
This year We'll make 22 yearsof providing active doula
support to expectant mothers,birthing people in Madison, dane
County community and it's beena joy.
And how it started it startedwith I've always wanted to be in
healthcare.
Wasn't sure exactly what Iwanted to be and looking at the
different professions and kindof inspired by Bill Cosby you
(01:31):
know he was an OBGYNobstetrician delivering babies
and I'm like that's a dope job.
I would love to deliver babies.
Never thought in my wildestdreams that nothing bad could
actually happen with havingbabies.
So what did I do?
I'm looking, I'm researching.
I learned about midwives, Ilearned about nurses, but I
really at the time wanted to bea doctor.
Then, as I go to school andyou're looking at those grades
(01:54):
and you're like, okay, all right, I'm not getting A's in every
class now, so what are otheropportunities to still get in
that space?
So I ended up getting my firstdegree and realized that I had
to you know, work hard, get theGPA up.
So I was inquiring about maybewhat about midwifery school?
You know that's also anotherbeautiful field I didn't look
(02:14):
into.
I was always tracked on being adoctor and what ended up
happening is I found a woman inFlorida can't even remember her
name.
I was like, hmm, if I talk toher I need to figure out how she
got those letters, because itsaid that she was like a direct
entry.
So she did an apprenticeshipstyle, became a midwife.
But she was also a certifiednurse midwife, which is pretty
much having after your nursingdegree you go back to school and
(02:39):
then you get a master's degreein midwifery.
But I'm like she got both, so Iunfortunately didn't get her, I
got her secretary and hersecretary was in the process of
getting certified as a doula.
So when I was talking to hersharing my interests, and she
said before you even think youcould call yourself going into
medicine, you need to watchwomen labor.
And I'm like, ok, how do I dothat and I'm just only got my
(03:01):
undergrad she said you need towatch women birth, you need to
become a doula.
So a stranger in Floridaignited my journey.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, so what exactly is a doula?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So a doula is a support person and not just a
support person I mean cause itjust makes it so mundane but
it's a labor support person.
It could be a man or a womanthat is in the birthing space to
provide support for thatexpected mother, for that
birthing person, help themnavigate through their pregnancy
, through labor and throughpostpartum to have a beautiful,
(03:35):
great birthing experience butalso kind of enter into
parenthood in a way that I thinkI believe all individuals who
want to expand their familyshould enter in.
In the past, the role in whichnurses had was, like, really
critical.
Like in some ways they werelike the original doulas, but
with added healthcare systems,responsibilities, all these
different things.
(03:55):
Nurses no longer stayed withthe birthing person.
Instead they're doing a lot ofadministrative stuff.
So this whole profession wasbirthed out of a lack.
But in other indigenous cultures, in African cultures, if you
look at older countries, there'salways that older, senior mom
or the midwife in the communitythat held that space that
(04:18):
ushered in all these new babiesinto the world.
This is where birthing peoplewent to go get their care, all
these different things, and evenin some respects around the
world it still happened, but inthe United States it's more
medicalized, most babies areborn in the hospital, so we're
losing those connections.
So doulas kind of like werebirthed out of that lack and you
(04:40):
know, hold that sacred space,kind of piecing all those things
together.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
So, as a doula, what unique perspectives or insights
do you bring to the birthingprocess, particularly as a
female black doula?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
One of the things that I desire as being a doula
is bringing joy back to birth.
If you look at the history, ifyou do the research, if you take
the time to find out how familypractice came about, how
obstetric gynecology came aboutin some respects it was the
(05:14):
mistreatment of black women,black slaves, and they
(05:42):
medicalize birth in such a waythat it's a disease rather than
a process, rather than a rite ofpassage, rather than.
This is how the next generationcomes forward and we should be
excited.
And the perspective that I wantto bring back is it's a
beautiful thing, it's a joyousthing to see what the next
generation looks like and,particularly for that birthing
person's family, it is somethingto be celebrated, not to feel
shame for.
Now, grant, not everybody'sbirth story is good, so I don't
(06:07):
want to paint this picture likeevery birth, every baby being
born is just beautiful, butunderstanding the magnitude of
that child coming in and how weneed to prepare and usher and
handle that birth person andtheir support person and their
family with such grace, beingable to lean in and give them
the support they need so that,as they transition into
(06:28):
parenthood on Earth's side, thatthey can handle what comes
their way, as they're raisingthat child.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
It's very interesting that I just learned that women
in prison were being shackledwhile they were giving birth
here in Wisconsin and I just Icouldn't even imagine what they
went through or how they felt,because when I was with my wife,
when she was having a baby, shewas up, she was walking, she
(06:59):
was so, you know, uncomfortable,just trying to get comfortable.
You need to be able to movearound, you need to be able to.
You need to be able to move,because that's the part of the
process, right?
You?
need to like get up, walk aroundand things like that.
And then some you know youmight be comfortable in this
position but in two seconds youmight need to switch it because
(07:19):
the baby's moving and thingslike that.
So for you to be shackled isjust like that's just against
everything.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
What people don't understand is okay.
You just acknowledged thatbirthing people have to move
right, because the baby'sactually telling mom, I need you
to move because I'm notcomfortable.
And guess what?
They're not comfortable.
So denying a birthing personthe right to birth the way they
need to, it's almost like you'resetting that child up for
(07:49):
failure right from the jump.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
A lot of trauma for both of them.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And it's being transferred in real time.
All the hormones is beingreleased the anxiety, the
anxiousness, pain, the shame.
That's a direct transfer to thegeneration that's being birthed
in a little while.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Tupac was born in prison.
Wow, I didn't know that I hadanother gentleman that was here.
His name was Eugene Smalls.
Wow, and he was a minister.
Excuse me, Minister, eugeneSmalls, he was born in prison.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Did he ever get to talk about the impact?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, he talked about it.
I don't think that ever leavesyou just knowing that
information.
Like man, I was born in ahospital in prison.
I wasn't born in a hospital, Iwas born in an infirmary inside
of a in prison.
I wasn't born in a hospital, Iwas born in an infirmary inside
of a state prison.
I was like wow, and then heended up going to prison.
(08:52):
So it was like you know, it'slike the cycle.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Exactly.
And in order for us to break it, we really got to pay attention
to the origin right and makingsure that birthing people are
handled with such care thatmothers get to be heard and we
get to support them on theirterms.
Not what the doctor says, notwhat the nurse says, not even
(09:18):
what the doula suggests, butinternally I strongly believe
that birthing people mothersthey know instinctively what it
is that they need and our job isto empower them to use their
voice.
That is where they get thefoundation of parenting.
They carried that child foralmost nine, 10 months, 40 weeks
(09:41):
, and now the world is going totell them how they ought to
raise their child?
I don't think so, but we robbedthem of that opportunity to be
heard, to advocate for theirchild.
So my job is to bring joy back,to let them know, to trust
themselves, and my job is tojust cheer you on to the finish
(10:04):
line.
You know I like to see myselfas a guardian of birth.
I didn't realize that, you know, and I'm unapologetic about it.
And it's a joyful time, it's anexciting time to see what the
new generation is not onlycoming forth with, but what do
they look like?
Whose personalities Are theyreaching out back to grandma,
(10:25):
you know, so-and-so, or auntieso-and-so, or great-great you
know, and the stories that willcome forth?
What is the information andtheir knowledge that they're
coming with, that they're aboutto share with us?
A lot of people you know, evenlike in child psychology and
child development, even like inchild psychology and child
development.
You know there's this wholething about nature versus
(10:47):
nurture.
What is so dope is these beings.
They know things.
They know things and if we slowourselves down, we get to know
what they know, if we learn howthey communicate.
And it's just such an amazingthing to see.
And I've been learning that andtracking that, in not even
(11:10):
realizing it, over these 22years.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
The impact that it has on the father, also during
the birthing process.
I was just talking to someoneearlier today and we were kind
of swapping stories about birthstories which is crazy because
men usually don't do that.
But we were talking about men'smental health, the toll that it
takes on a man, and he said Ihad a doula and my doula let me
(11:34):
sleep.
I was like my doula, let mesleep too he was like I don't
know what I would have didwithout her, like she was great
and just a great experience.
And he's had a couple of kidsbut he was like this last one he
had.
It was with the doula and itwas just.
It was a totally differentexperience.
Can you share any memorableexperiences or stories from your
(11:56):
work as a doula that deeplyimpacted you?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I got to start off with my first birth, and that
was again.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
You've actually helped deliver over a thousand
babies, you said.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yes, in my 22 years.
So what makes it even easier todo is when you become a nurse.
So I became a nurse seven yearsafter being a doula and I felt
like I needed more knowledge.
I needed more knowledge becauseit was very interesting the
dynamics that were playing inthe room and there was times
that I was mistreated in thepresence of my client and I
really felt like there was aknowledge gap.
(12:27):
Also, I wasn't I never had anychildren at that time, you know.
So I be.
I did my doula training in 2002.
I didn't get married till 2012.
So you can see, there's a10-year gap where I am just
literally what I read and thentaking care of birthing people
and putting all those piecestogether.
But something shifted when Ibecame pregnant and I just
(12:51):
started to go back and I'm like,oh my gosh, I should not have
said that.
I should have done thisdifferently, and I realized that
that was an experience, thatwas something that I needed to
strengthen my practice.
But before that moment I feltlike I needed to become a nurse
to know more, because some ofthe things that I would do or
some of the things I would say,the nurse will minimize it or it
(13:12):
will be like a competition.
So I said you know what?
Let me find out what the otherside is thinking of.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I've seen that firsthand in the hospital.
It's like they're respected butnot respected.
But you know, it's like thisweird thing.
The nurses feel like whatthey're saying has to take
precedent over the doula, butthen the doula is like no, I've
been with them since day one.
I know her, I know way more andfrom you're reading it from a
(13:41):
chart, I'm doing this off ofexperience.
You know, and I've deliveredmore babies than you Exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Exactly, but I do my best to recognize and understand
and this is the part that Ilearned as a nurse is that we're
a team and we're all here tohelp this birthing person have
an amazing experience, thismother to have an amazing
experience with her supportperson and all that stuff.
Now, I can't guarantee that theoutcome will be exactly what
they want, but I can guaranteethat they will feel the support
(14:12):
and love and encouragement thatI know I can do and whatever
information I can pass along tomake sure they can make an
informed decision.
That is what I'm going to do,you know, and I'm going to
advocate like crazy to make surethat their voice is being heard
, because a lot of times youknow when you are in that space
(14:32):
you're helping mothers havebabies all day long.
You already have a formed ideaof how this process is going to
go.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Right and you forget that everybody is different.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Exactly.
Every family is different.
It's the same situation Ababy's going to be born, but we
don't know all the details.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And a kid never know.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Exactly.
So I started to adopt this ideaof you know what, if this is
their first birth, it's going tobe my first birth too.
If this is their second, it'smy second.
I'm going to adjust, but I knowthat I'm an empty vessel.
So when I come into that sacredspace, all my issues, what I
think about anything, is at thedoor.
(15:12):
I am of service to my client.
I'm of service to the patient.
I am of service to my client.
I'm of service to the patientand my job is to empower them
with whatever that they thinkthey need to get to the finish
line, and that is to meet thenew generation, to meet their
baby.
The thing that blows my mindthat we don't talk enough about
is that birth is spiritual.
(15:33):
Or when does flesh wrap itselfaround spirit, around a soul,
you know?
And if we understand themagnitude of that, maybe we will
handle the person who?
And people think oh yes, thecenter of the universe is
outside of us.
I discovered in my 22 years thecenter of the universe is
within that mom, it's withinthat birthing person and it has
(15:57):
to pass through them, passthrough her, so that we can meet
.
This is no stork dropping ababy out the sky.
It's passing through a wholenother human being who's still
living.
We have to really sit with that.
How are we going to handle, ifwe don't handle?
(16:18):
The mom, well.
The birthing person, well,what's happening to that child?
Have to really sit with that.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
How are we going to handle if we don't handle?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
the mom, well.
The birthing person, well,what's happening to that child?
So your first birth?
Yes, so my first birth, thankyou.
22 years ago, because it wasactually in January, I was a
brand new nurse.
I read all the things.
I'm ready, I'm ready 27 hoursWow.
Of continuous care, 27 hours.
We had a false start actually.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
So you were a nurse at this time.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
No.
Oh, you were a doula, a doula.
I didn't become a nurse until2009.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I know a nurse will switch shifts.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
But a doula, well, a one will stay until yes or get
some relief.
Three days they'll stay therewith you?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
yes, that was that.
I was that doula of yesterday,you know, providing that
continuous support and it wasgood to do, because I didn't
have no boyfriend.
I had no husband, I had no kids.
Um, as I progressed then I hadto.
But what was so interestingabout that first birth, even
with everything that I read,even what I was trying to do, I
(17:24):
was having serious issues withthe nurse.
The nurse will say, well, it'snot that hard, it's not that
hard, it shouldn't hurt thatmuch.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Well then, if it's hurting that much, then maybe
that's a sign that something'swrong.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, or ask her the right questions, like where does
it hurt?
How can I help you, really?
And I was watching the way shewould interact.
And when she was gone, I askedmy client like, how do you feel?
She couldn't articulate thatshe was having issues with the
nurse, but you could tell thatshe was feeling she had low
(17:58):
self-esteem, she was feelingdefeated, she doesn't, she
didn't feel like she wasprogressing.
And I'm like, yes, you are.
You just got to give your bodypermission to allow itself to
open up and it's going to taketime.
This is your first time.
So, mind you, no baby, noexperience for me as a mom, but
I'm going based on what I readand when, at some point during
(18:20):
that labor, she mustered up somecourage and strength, she went
through all the different phasesyou go through where you feel
like, okay, I got this becausethe pain is not that bad.
Then the pain gets really bad.
But I was so proud of her.
She didn't get an epidural eventhough the pressure was on 27
hours.
But no epidural.
She did the tub.
We tried different positionsand then every time they checked
(18:41):
her, she made progress, shemade progress and now it's time
to push.
And when baby Sophia came, ohmy gosh, I was like I can do
this, I can do this.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Everybody cries.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh, yes, everybody cried, but I didn't cry when the
baby came.
I cried when, in the mother'smost vulnerable state, she
looked at her partner and shesaid, no matter what, even if it
means I die, having your babylike she had no regrets.
That had me tearing up likecrazy and he's like you're not
(19:18):
going to die, it's going to beokay.
But I don't know if he reallyfelt that, but he gave her what
she needed.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
And now they're celebrating.
Baby Sophia is here, the nextgeneration is here, and I am
like, how can this not besomething you want to do all the
time?
And I'm like trying to figureout how do I keep coming back to
the space and place you know?
So then I made it my mission.
Okay, all right, let me figureout how I can get more clients,
let me see who I can help.
(19:46):
Let me put the word out there,you know, but again, internet
wasn't what it was.
Then I didn't have no website.
I didn't know about having abusiness, but it was word of
mouth that I started to.
For the most part in the earlyyears I did a lot of college
students, you know, differentbackgrounds, different races, it
didn't matter.
I just needed to be in thatspace to learn what I needed to
learn.
I needed to pay attention tothe dynamics and then, when I
(20:09):
started to build my confidence,I said I need more knowledge.
So then I went back to schooland became a nurse because I
needed to know what they knewand didn't realize that I'm a
unicorn.
There's a lot of doulas who aredoulas.
There are nurses who becomedoulas, but it's not quite
common to be a doula and go onto be a nurse.
Even as a nurse I didn't dothings like my colleagues
(20:32):
because I had a doula brain, Ihad a doula heart about work.
I didn't use medications likeeverybody did.
It's there.
But because I saw birth, Iunderstood the physiological
process of birth and that ittakes time.
I fought for that, I advocatedfor that.
Whether they were my patient ormy client, same care.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So what are some of the challenges you face as a
black woman in the doulaprofession and how have you
overcome them?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I don't know if I overcome them, but I have
learned to work with them.
Some of the challenges is justthe fact that I'm black.
A lot of people who may know me.
I'm 6'1", so when I walk in theroom it's like who is she?
What is she about to do?
I always have to have myselfmentally ready and prepared.
Mentally ready, prepared to beundermined, disrespected.
(21:20):
I don't know how many times Icame into the birthing space and
say I'm the doula and they say,oh, that's the patient's sister
.
Or if I find them doingsomething that I don't agree
with because, guess what, I'malso a labor and delivery nurse.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So I know the process , you know the procedure.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I don't know how many times I had to pull that card
and say, well, right up thestreet, I am also a labor and
delivery nurse and can I ask youa little bit more questions,
Cause I don't understand why youare taking that course with
this, particular with my client.
You know that kind of thing.
The other thing about doulasthe Trump card right, Right,
(21:55):
right.
I keep it in my back pocket.
I don't always have to use it,but I do a lot of observing and
my job is to make sure, likeasking the mom, the birthing
person did all your questionsget answered?
Do you feel safe?
Do you feel supported?
I don't know how many times Iwalked in the room and the
birthing person tells me, youknow what, the fact that you
(22:16):
walked in here, they're caringfor me better, what?
I didn't even say anything.
I didn't do anything.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Everything changed.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
And everything changed.
They didn't see me, they didn'tcome around, but they start
showing up.
When you showed up and Istarted to pay attention to that
.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
And I'm like, wow, this is crazy.
Which leads me to my nextquestion how do you approach
supporting Black mothers,specifically considering the
disparities and challenges theymay face in the health care
system?
Because we know the statisticsfor Wisconsin it is like the
worst place in the country to bea woman of color having a baby.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yes, it's one of the worst states and our outcomes
are not necessarily the greatestand the best, but I feel like
every time I put my foot downand I go on to the unit and I'm
providing care for that client,that's me combating that number,
that's me working against thatstatistic.
Now, keep in mind I'm only one.
So one of the things I've hadthe privilege of doing and being
(23:17):
has become a doula trainer.
So now I get to train otherpeople with the knowledge and
the skill set that I have sothey can go into the birthing
space and be able to providesimilar support, if not better,
because I like to think in the22 years I've gotten better.
(23:38):
It's not easy being an advocateand it's not easy always feeling
like you have to fight.
So it's really, reallyimportant that in this work that
we do, we do some self-care,because there's a lot of things
that happen, like moral injurywhen you see something and it's
like, or some obstetric violencewhere you know rights were
(24:01):
taken away.
A birthing person didn't get toinformally consent to something
, but they felt that it wasimportant right now and override
that birthing person's concernand, as a result, led to moral
injury.
Something happened.
You know it doesn't have tonecessarily result in the death
of a child right but it's aninjury that turns and becomes
(24:25):
trauma very quickly that canimpact that birthing person,
that mother's ability to havemore children in what ways do
you integrate cultural practicesand traditions into your doula
work, particularly within theblack community?
So, like I mentioned in thebeginning, I am the daughter of
Nigerian parents and I was bornand raised I didn't include that
(24:46):
part.
I was born and raised in NewYork City.
I have a husband who's fromLouisiana, so I've gotten to
learn a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
The dirty dirty yes.
Does he still have his accent.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Only when he's, you know, pressed, you know, but for
the most part if he's happy andgo lucky, he won't catch it.
But there's a moth.
It might be a different story.
But one of the things that I'vecome to learn is when I am
interacting and I'm meeting myclients and working with them at
least in prenatal, because it'svery different when you're a
nurse, you just get what you get, your assignment.
But when I have the opportunityto get a client, I like to spend
(25:20):
time to get a sense of who theyare, what they like, what
matters to them, what are theirexpectations of their birth
experience, how is theirpregnancy going, who is their
support and how can I be ofservice.
So if some of the descriptivenature is I want, like, some
mothering where I get to reallynurture, then that's what I do.
(25:40):
I nurture.
If I mean even like setting upthe room so that it's welcoming.
Okay, well, let's plan that,you know.
Did you get your gown thatyou're going to wear as you
welcome this new life?
Did you get your hair done?
What self-care things are youdoing?
Talking to the birth partner,what concerns do you have and
how can I be of help?
How would you like me tosupport you as well, because you
(26:02):
guys are a team.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.