What if there was a way to transform the lives of those in correctional institutions? We recently had a riveting conversation with special guest host Kingston Robertson, interviewing James Morgen from Moses, an organization rewriting the narrative around incarceration and post-incarceration life. James, having spent over 24 years behind bars, provides an intimate insight into the importance of treating those incarcerated with dignity and respect. He highlights the significant work Moses does in advocating for legislative changes and their current focus on rectifying the deplorable conditions in Wisconsin's Correctional Institutions.
Shifting gears, we uncover the power of personal transformation and the unique ways Moses Madison is making an impact. James brings to light their Transformation Celebration event, a heartening ceremony that honors individuals who have made significant life changes. We delve into the power of sharing our transformation journeys and standing firm in our values, principles, and beliefs. This story of personal evolution is set against their drive to raise funds for a youth culinary program, a testament to the organization's dedication to empowerment.
In the final segment, our exploration of self-confidence will move you, the power of voting, and how incarceration affects tax dollar allocation. James illuminates how courage and confidence can often be misunderstood as arrogance and emphasizes the need to set boundaries and embrace unconditional love. We unpack the profound effects of incarceration on the human mind and the importance of a strong mindset in achieving success and making positive changes in our lives. This thought-provoking discussion with James promises to reshape your perceptions of incarceration, transformation, and empowerment. Tune in, engage, and be inspired.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
This is Out of the Box podcastand I'm your host, Kingston
Robertson, and I'm here withJames.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Organ.
I'm currently the communityorganization organizer for an
organization called Moses.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
That's great.
Could you give us a littleinsight on what Moses stands for
and what you guys are doing forthe community.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah well, moses stands for Madison, organized
and Strength Equity andSolidarity.
What we are is an organizationthat focuses on creating and
assisting and changinglegislation relative to
incarceration,post-incarceration housing,
education a number of ourmembers who are really active in
(00:40):
all of those areas.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
How is this created?
Where did this come from?
Where did Moses start from?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, moses started in 2010.
A number of us, as was ReverendJoe Ewinger out of Milwaukee,
myself, jerome Dillard and DavidLiners, at the behest of a
woman by the name of Carol Rubin, who did the necessary research
and building of theorganization with this member of
(01:07):
congregations we had to have 10member congregations before we
could become a part of Wisdom,which is our statewide affiliate
under the umbrella of ournational organization, which is
Gamalio, and those areorganizations that train
individuals and communityactivism and community
organization.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Could you tell us a few things that you guys are
doing right now for us with thecommunity?
And just giving thatunderstanding of who you are, A
lot of people will hear the name.
What is the behind the scenes?
What are you guys doing in thecommunity in that area that
you're targeting at this moment?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Well, yeah, you're correct, there's a lot of behind
the scenes work.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
What I think people will be familiar with at this
particular point isapproximately two to three weeks
ago the New York Timespublished an article about the
horrific conditions in WalpawCorrectional Institution and
Green Bay CorrectionalInstitution here in the state of
Wisconsin where individualshave been on what the department
calls modified lockdowns ormodified movement, but in
(02:08):
actuality they are locked downwhere individuals are in their
sales for 22 to 23 hours a day,lack of access to showers,
communications with theirfamilies and things of that
nature.
So we've protesting thoseconditions and seeing what we
can do to get the Department ofCorrections, as well as the
governor, to address thoseissues that are impacting people
(02:28):
in negative ways.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And 23,.
You said 23 and one.
That's a long time to be lockedup in a cell and can't come out
, and then no showers and thingsof that nature, Actively right
now.
Where are you at in creatingthat change?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, again, we keep advocating for the change that's
needed and necessary, and Iwill share with someone this
morning.
You know the Democrats havecome out with a bill to address
some of those issues, to addresssome of those issues long term,
requiring the Department ofCorrections to fulfill those
needs, to ensure that peoplehave the opportunity to exercise
(03:03):
, that people have theopportunity to shower, to do
those things that are needed andnecessary so they can maintain
their human dignity whilethey're in that space.
You know, how we determine thetreatment of individuals in
those spaces will determine howthey come home.
We want them to come homementally, emotionally and
physically well and capable ofbecoming the fathers and the
(03:25):
mothers that they are intendedto be.
We want them to be able toengage, re-engage, in their
families and their communitiesin healthy ways.
You know, we all know those ofus who have experienced
incarceration.
Because I've experiencedincarceration, I was
incarcerated for 24 and a halfyears.
You want to come home and beable to not just be welcomed,
(03:46):
you want to come home and beaccepted into a whole community,
into a whole family in a waythat's beneficial for everyone,
Okay, your children, your mother, your wife, your husband, your
nieces, your nephews, and youknow it is incumbent upon us,
you know, to address thesethings.
I know some of us haven't beenIn those situations, some of us
not.
You know to shine the light,okay, on these issues is very
(04:10):
important.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
We need to be the voice, you know, for people who
have been made, for all thetests and purposes, silent.
We want this issue, we wantthem to be visible, and
particularly in this politicalarena, where those choices and
decisions are made by people whoreally have no understanding or
concept about what thoseenvironments do to human beings.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Because I also was incarcerated for seven years
before.
So I kind of got a greatunderstanding of where you're
coming from, what you're talkingabout.
But to do 24 years and come outand be as strong as you are and
be a part of Moses, how do youcome home and get to this point?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
One of the key components to that is, I got to
a point where I understood thatthere was a greater then in my
life and started figuring out,you know, what I needed to do.
Number one to survive thatexperience, okay, and not lose
my mind.
Yeah, that's important.
Okay, I was very active in thatenvironment.
(05:06):
I found things that I couldspend my time and attention on,
that gave me a sense of myhumanity, my dignity, my artwork
, my reading, my education.
You know, went to school,acquired in a associate of our
degree.
While I was incarcerated I beganto figure out the value of
(05:26):
communication, the value oflanguage.
You know, never really knowingif I would ever step foot
outside that environment.
But you know, being there, Ihad to figure out how I could
live my best life while I wasthere, how I could maintain a
sense of independence andself-determination, and so
acquiring that in there I'm notgoing to say coming out may be a
(05:47):
piece of cake, because therewere still issues that I had to
figure out, you know, for myself, in consultation with some
others who had had similarexperiences that I had and who
were successful aftertransitioning out of
incarceration.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
What was that first step of coming home?
It's a lot easier to be sayinglike what we would do while
we're in that area, like we'rein the box, and be like man.
We're going to change our life,we're going to do this
different or we're not going todo this anymore.
When you got home after doingso much time, what was your
first steps of growth and movingforward in the community?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Well, the first thing was how to conquer fear.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, fear is important.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
How to conquer fear.
That was my thinking.
But then, talking again withsome of the individuals that I
had been keeping track of othermen who had gotten out and been
successful in terms of stayingout of prison is engaging them
in conversations that allowed meto focus on what was happening
to me in those situations whereI felt uncomfortable, where I
(06:49):
felt fearful, where I felt likethis is, I've got to go back to
all I know.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
That could come real fast.
It could come real fast whenthem pockets empty, especially
when everybody oh he home Rightright, right, and that's all
they know you for is likewhatever it was in the past when
you left them where.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Okay, and that's not just the guys in the street,
that's your family too.
Indeed, you know, if you gotchildren, all they know about
you is what you left them with,and if there's been a
transformation or a transitioninto you Becoming some one other
than the thing that you leftthem with no list of language.
Yeah, it can be challenging andit can be painful, because
(07:32):
sometimes you do have to makethat decision to separate from
on a permanent basis in order togive yourself Opportunity to
live a more quality life, abalanced life the word
Transformation.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
You use it strongly because I didn't talk to you and
I heard about, like thetransformation awards and the
events that you guys have to.
You know, in honor of thosethat came home with that mind
that you're speaking on and baby, to make Change and progress,
you know.
Could you give us a little moreon that?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Well, the foundation for Transformation begins with
the individual, or the personand the people that we honor and
what we call our gala.
Our transformation Celebration,is coming up December 9th.
It's at the brass works onWabisa Avenue here in Madison,
wisconsin, and so we have threehonorees.
Persons can go on our Website,moses Madison dot org, and all
(08:26):
that information is right down.
You have to do is click on abutton.
That book will take you to allthe information that you need to
know about the transformation.
So what is it again?
Moses Madison dot org?
It'll be from 530 to 9, andwell, I want to remind people
too about this particularcelebration.
It's that you know part of theproceeds go to a youth culinary
(08:48):
program.
And that's why we always havethis event most at the brass
works gets a ticket.
I believe that the ticket salesin November 22nd.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
That's good to know.
So yeah, ticket sales inNovember 22nd Make sure you go
get yours.
Be a part of this, becausethere's a lot to come next year
and we want to also honor thosethat's been working behind the
scenes that have yet to beennoticed, but you guys are making
sure that they noticed hey,come, come and support out of
the box always, because there'sno standard to determine, you
(09:24):
know, outside of the person.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It's about empowering the individual to the degree
that they deem necessary or notTo tell us how they've
transformed.
Maybe in the past I wasn't thetype of individual who
understood the value of myfamily how I do.
That's a transformation.
Okay, I never had a job.
Now I possess a work ethic.
That's a transformation.
(09:48):
Okay so it doesn't have to be.
You know, I came home, you know, and coming home I have 50, 50
K, and then I did this and I didthat.
No, we're looking for thosethings that are meaningful in
your existence, in your life,that you are willing to share,
okay, with the people who willcome and celebrate with you, and
sometimes those people arepeople who don't even know you
(10:11):
but are Inspired by your processof transformation, by you
sharing your reality.
You know, and what I findfascinating about it you know
because I was one of the firstrecipients of this.
What I found so transformativeand so eye-opening was that, you
know, individuals began toengage with me and having those
conversations and sharing withme those times in their lives
(10:33):
when transformation was neededand necessary, and how they were
able to accomplish thoseTransformations to a degree that
it was satisfactory number onefor them, and then for the other
individuals that they'reconnected to.
Okay, it's a process.
It's like everything in life.
It's a process you and I weretalking about.
You know children and how theirstage is a development man Look
(10:54):
, I'm 64 years old, 40 years ago.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I'll never engage you in that conversation.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
You know there was, there had never been a
foundation.
Late for that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah.
So for those like coming homeand, like you know, trying to,
like that, have that same visionthat they have yet found, like
how do you guys, you know, likehow they able to contact you and
Get it, get in tune with what'sgoing on?
Because I feel like what youguys are doing is important,
because, like with me personallyComing home and being able to
(11:27):
say that I'm not gonna do what Iwas once doing which was
successful for me, I thought itwas successful, you know, even
with all the things that comewith it.
I had the mind state that itwas successful when I'm making
this money, everybody loving you.
But when you, when you don'thave nothing, then you know, you
, like you know, is no one there.
So it's like when you come homeand you know you have such a
(11:51):
strong transformation takes alot, you know, like just like
even with the founder, becausethe family goes through it with
you like how do we come homefrom there and find that job or
Find that help?
Like where is the help?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, number one, you got to figure out whether or
not you are coming home.
Does home exist for you outhere anymore?
Okay, and if it doesn't, how doyou develop that?
That takes a level ofintentionality.
It takes being able to say no,I, and have your yes and no have
the same power.
Okay, in those spaces where youknow the yes is acceptable.
(12:32):
But then if I come and you havea specific request, will my no
be just as acceptable?
Okay, no, I'm not gonna engage.
You know, I'm man, I'm numb,bro, I'm not going to get high
with you, you know.
Oh man, you scared, you're aprick.
No, but that's a decision thatI made.
That's in my best interest.
Okay, thank you.
(12:53):
No, I am no longer that.
Okay, I'm not only seeking tobecome someone else, I am
someone else and stand on that.
You know.
Exercise that courage.
Okay, to not be defined outsideof who you are, but being able
to define who you are frominside.
That's that strength, that'swhat brings that character.
(13:15):
Okay, that's what puts otherson notice.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Something's gonna buy them.
Yeah, so they're gonna have tomove different with you.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Okay, so you know, or even if they don't move with
you, let them move without you.
You know your purpose is tostand on your values, your
principles, your beliefs, yourmorals, and if other people
aren't accepting of that, youknow, let the message be.
The last time you saw me, I wasstanding and headed in another
(13:43):
direction, and that'stransformation.
It's that simple.
Okay, right, but then again, weare social creatures, so seek
those environments where you'regonna have those productive and
positive interactions, thesupport for the transformation
that you are in the process ofinstilling within yourself.
Exhibit that to the best ofyour ability in your external
(14:04):
person.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You know it takes a lot to have that transformation
when there's so many thingsaround you that can bring you
back into what you know, which,and I feel, like you know, with
the things you guys are doing,the motivation behind being
nominated from.
You know from that and, likeman, you're doing your thing,
(14:27):
you working a job, or you cameout here you're trying to change
the youth life.
Things like that are, you know,not seen.
So like with Moses, like youguys are bringing it to the
table.
How do you feel about being apart of that personally?
It's a gift.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I feel honored.
You know there are somecriticisms with it.
Come along with it and I'm notgoing to say that it all feels
good.
But I didn't come into thespace with the intentionality of
merely feeling good.
I knew that it was going torequire a certain level of
sacrifice, okay.
I knew that it was going to be,you know, going to be pushed
back, okay.
(15:04):
So coming into the space, Iprepared myself for that, okay.
So you know, it's easy to talkabout it.
It's another thing to do it.
It may sound humorous to somepeople, or some people may say
man, I ain't trying to hear that.
But I remember sitting in prisonman and I watched this movie
(15:25):
and this character in the Batmanfilm said wait, do they get a
load of me?
I'm not saying that out of asense of arrogance, but I know
what I know.
I know what I know, but I alsoknow what I didn't know before
then that's very important, andwhen you just said it, it opened
(15:47):
my eyes.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
It's like everything I didn't know is what was more
important than what I did think,because I didn't know much
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right, right, and see , we always talking about I need
to learn, learn, learn, learn,learn, learn.
But I discovered in thatenvironment there was a lot that
I had to unlearn.
I had to create that space, youknow, so that my brain, my
brain, could be able to begin tofunction in a healthy way I
ain't gonna say normal, becauseevery brain is different, okay,
(16:20):
but it had to be able tofunction in a way that would
allow me to understand you know,the impact of these things that
are outside of me and the waythat they impact me that the
only way for me to be able toeven begin to navigate them was
I had to unlearn what had beentaught to me.
Okay, oh man, some of it had tobe totally destroyed.
(16:43):
Yeah, I get it.
You know my generations go backbefore.
There was even a person wholooked like me, say.
You know, like Malcolm wouldsay you know who, you know the
Mayflower.
All of these generationsunderstand that genealogy.
What happened?
Where did I come from?
Who am I?
Okay, you know understandingthings like the.
(17:04):
You know the migration of blackpeople from the South trying to
escape slavery and Jim Crow,and where were my family and
people?
And all of that andunderstanding that, to give it a
sense of who I am, you know bepeople being telling me that I'm
I can't be educated because I'ma little black boy.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Okay, and then going back and understanding that my
great grandparents wereeducators and teachers, you know
, and tapping into that sourceof me, that curiosity, you know
why am I always with a book inmy hand and reading, discovering
those new things about mycapacity and my power that had
been stripped away from me?
(17:43):
Okay, through the culture,through the society, you know,
through what I'm seeing here ina lot of places around our
country, where our families andour kids and everything else are
existing, in these communitiesof confinement that are being
built based on the language yeah, the stealing concrete shows up
, but it's based on the language.
(18:03):
And who's determining that?
Who's designing the maps, onwhose vote matters and whose
don't, you know.
And so you know, let's get backinto Moses here for a minute,
because those are the thingsthat we focus on, you know the
mapping, the gerrymandering ofthe maps, and whose vote counts
and how and why, and why it'simportant to vote to change our
situations and circumstances inthese communities and in our
(18:25):
neighborhoods.
Okay, educating people, youknow, understanding that that
educational situation of thatinstitution belongs to us and we
need to hold people accountableto that.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I had just recently learned from going to a few
events and being, you know,curious of what's really going
on behind the scenes because,like I say, behind the scenes is
where most things are beingdone the right way.
A lot of people on probationcannot vote.
If you got 20 years ofprobation, you, your voice,
you're not heard.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, let me ask you a question quick, just a quick
question.
While you were incarceratedthis was my experience I never
had a single individual while Iwas incarcerated say man, I want
to get my right to vote.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I mean Me personally didn't care to vote there you go
.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
You know there's a narrative in our community
historically that we ain't wehave.
It is a weed is one and we lookat one Timson one All right.
But you know resources,resources, man.
National elections is one thing, your local elections is
something totally different.
That's where you get your rolesrepaired, that's where you get
(19:32):
your financing for your schools,housing, all of that you know.
So we focus on education,educating people in those areas.
You know, if you've got, youknow here, particularly here in
Madison, you know the peoplethat we got making decisions
right now really don't careabout none of us Okay, we.
You know they got us caught upin this language game about.
(19:54):
You know.
You know this group of people,that group of people,
everybody's looking at everybodyelse and I'm this and I'm that
and at the end of the day, youknow they go in there and put us
all in one cup of water, callminorities and move on, all
right, but those resourcesbecome valuable and important.
Get in your car and go on thesouth side of Madison or some of
(20:17):
these areas where you don'teven want to drive your car
because it's all towed up, andthen you go on the white on the
west side and the streets arereal smooth and all that that's
voting.
Right, that's representation,okay, and and and the part that
I really truly don't get.
I'm saying I don't get it, butI do because there are people in
(20:38):
these spaces who it's all abouttheir self-interest, the
population of people who aresuffering, not having the
information or the understandingRight.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
What I don't you know , it's not just until recently
that I learned that howimportant our vote is for like
those type of things, becausewhen you say vote, people think
president, senator, likeRepublican Democrat, no one
thinking about.
Oh yeah, well, this part, thishelps our roles or this helps
our school system, which youknow.
I feel like it's a lot of workthat needs to be done in the
(21:09):
school system these days.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Everybody in prison right now.
If you were in Green Bay, thetax dollars that would normally
go to your community to supportfunding schools in your area and
all those things you being inwhen I was in Green Bay I
understood, and even when I wasin Tennessee, that being on
their voter rolls increasestheir financial capacity to fund
(21:33):
their schools, access tomedical care and everything else
.
So if I'm sitting in prison andmy family in Milwaukee, I'm
paying for the families up therein Green.
Bay.
Okay, they're increased taxdollars in Green Bay.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
But they're in that Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So, again, man, understanding and beginning to
look at these things and lookingat number one, your value, your
own personal value and yourworth, and what you have the
capacity to do to change yoursituation and transform and in
transforming you, you transformyour family, your children.
Okay, you open the doors forthem.
Okay, to be able to potentiallyexperience some of the things
(22:14):
that we aren't experiencingright now.
You know, freedom of choice,freedom of autonomy to be who I
am.
For me, first, you know, andpeople are talking about well,
everybody's welcome here.
Well, you're welcome here,we're welcome in the environment
.
I don't really want to bewelcomed.
If acceptance is the goal, thenyou accept me for who I am and
(22:37):
what I bring, not just to thetable.
Um, most people, when they pullup to a table, there's a chair
to sit on right.
Don't just give me a spot atthe table and I can't have a
seat and be part of thedecision-making process.
All right, you want me to feelgood?
Ah no, my feel good issomething that as a standard
(22:59):
within me.
I'm going to feel good becauseI know who I am.
I know the foundation for myideas and my beliefs and my
personhood.
That's going to make me feelgood and you're going to get to
experience that when you see me,you'll fit man this is.
You know this.
This is messaging.
I am.
You know I don't want to goback to Jesse that I am somebody
(23:20):
.
I ain't talking to thatrhetoric.
I'm talking about deeplyknowing who you are and what you
possess.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Before you, before you leave out the door.
When you leave out the door,you have to have that confidence
because people feel when youain't confident and you know you
become a target for you knowgrief or disappointment and
stuff like that, because you,given that look to the people
that's in front of you, versusknowing who you are, and I feel
(23:48):
like coming home from you knowthose places.
It's important that we havethat confidence and work on that
confidence.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Confidence and courage, man, but here's, here's
, here's one of the things towatch out for in that confidence
and courage and people whodon't know you will perceive it
as arrogance and I've had toaddress that.
You know, with audiences, okay,but that's because I had other
people in the room who I was inrelationship with, who could say
(24:19):
to me after the fact you know,man, I think you came off this
way with this particularaudience, okay, and being non
arrogant, I took the opportunityto go back and reassess, okay,
because I definitely don't wantto send the wrong message.
Okay, you know, I want mymessage to be clear, you know am
(24:41):
I message is one of humanity.
Okay, respect, dignity.
Okay, love, unconditional love.
People talk about it all thetime, but they don't know what
that is.
Boundary setting, so that Iknow, when I step into a space,
that I'm bringing my own safetywith you.
Yeah, I rely on somebody elseto create a space that's safe
(25:04):
for me.
Okay, and we learn those thingswhen we incarcerated, you know,
but I have to do it in a waythat's healthy, you know,
because a lot of us come homeand we're hyper vigilant.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, everybody, you know, like everything, everybody
suspect.
You figure it out, you knoweverybody suspect.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Okay, but then figuring out, how do I balance?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
How do I find that so that that vigilance is a
healthy one?
For me that's not a distractionin my life easy.
It's not easy because a lot ofit happens to us on the
subconscious level.
That's.
You know and I heard me saythis before incarceration does
different things to differentpeople.
And for those who have neverexperienced incarceration, yeah,
(25:46):
I don't feel there's no, you'veescaped, because guess what
life was different things todifferent people.
So there's a similarity thereis to what degree Individual or
group of individuals decide topay attention to it, because
that's another thing that's veryimportant it's figuring out and
learning how to pay attentionhere is important because even
in in those spaces, like, if youhave your mind, you can get a
(26:10):
lot further in places, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But when that's gone, it's like you know you stuck in
wherever you at.
I believe a lot of people likefor like.
When we talk about confidence,it starts up here.
You know you, like man, I mightnot be able to succeed in this
and this going on and you knowyou questioning yourself before
you even had the opportunity.
Once again, james, we thank youfor showing up being a part of
(26:33):
this and this is out of the boxpodcast.
I'm your host, kingstonRobinson.
I.
Hello everyone.
This is Out of the Box podcastand I'm your host, Kingston
Robertson, and I'm here withJames.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Organ.
I'm currently the communityorganization organizer for an
organization called Moses.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
That's great.
Could you give us a littleinsight on what Moses stands for
and what you guys are doing forthe community.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah well, moses stands for Madison, organized
and Strength Equity andSolidarity.
What we are is an organizationthat focuses on creating and
assisting and changinglegislation relative to
incarceration,post-incarceration housing,
education a number of ourmembers who are really active in
(00:40):
all of those areas.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
How is this created?
Where did this come from?
Where did Moses start from?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, moses started in 2010.
A number of us, as was ReverendJoe Ewinger out of Milwaukee,
myself, jerome Dillard and DavidLiners, at the behest of a
woman by the name of Carol Rubin, who did the necessary research
and building of theorganization with this member of
(01:07):
congregations we had to have 10member congregations before we
could become a part of Wisdom,which is our statewide affiliate
under the umbrella of ournational organization, which is
Gamalio, and those areorganizations that train
individuals and communityactivism and community
organization.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Could you tell us a few things that you guys are
doing right now for us with thecommunity?
And just giving thatunderstanding of who you are, A
lot of people will hear the name.
What is the behind the scenes?
What are you guys doing in thecommunity in that area that
you're targeting at this moment?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Well, yeah, you're correct, there's a lot of behind
the scenes work.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
What I think people will be familiar with at this
particular point isapproximately two to three weeks
ago the New York Timespublished an article about the
horrific conditions in WalpawCorrectional Institution and
Green Bay CorrectionalInstitution here in the state of
Wisconsin where individualshave been on what the department
calls modified lockdowns ormodified movement, but in
(02:08):
actuality they are locked downwhere individuals are in their
sales for 22 to 23 hours a day,lack of access to showers,
communications with theirfamilies and things of that
nature.
So we've protesting thoseconditions and seeing what we
can do to get the Department ofCorrections, as well as the
governor, to address thoseissues that are impacting people
(02:28):
in negative ways.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And 23,.
You said 23 and one.
That's a long time to be lockedup in a cell and can't come out
, and then no showers and thingsof that nature, Actively right
now.
Where are you at in creatingthat change?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well, again, we keep advocating for the change that's
needed and necessary, and Iwill share with someone this
morning.
You know the Democrats havecome out with a bill to address
some of those issues, to addresssome of those issues long term,
requiring the Department ofCorrections to fulfill those
needs, to ensure that peoplehave the opportunity to exercise
(03:03):
, that people have theopportunity to shower, to do
those things that are needed andnecessary so they can maintain
their human dignity whilethey're in that space.
You know, how we determine thetreatment of individuals in
those spaces will determine howthey come home.
We want them to come homementally, emotionally and
physically well and capable ofbecoming the fathers and the
(03:25):
mothers that they are intendedto be.
We want them to be able toengage, re-engage, in their
families and their communitiesin healthy ways.
You know, we all know those ofus who have experienced
incarceration.
Because I've experiencedincarceration, I was
incarcerated for 24 and a halfyears.
You want to come home and beable to not just be welcomed,
(03:46):
you want to come home and beaccepted into a whole community,
into a whole family in a waythat's beneficial for everyone,
Okay, your children, your mother, your wife, your husband, your
nieces, your nephews, and youknow it is incumbent upon us,
you know, to address thesethings.
I know some of us haven't beenIn those situations, some of us
not.
You know to shine the light,okay, on these issues is very
(04:10):
important.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
We need to be the voice, you know, for people who
have been made, for all thetests and purposes, silent.
We want this issue, we wantthem to be visible, and
particularly in this politicalarena, where those choices and
decisions are made by people whoreally have no understanding or
concept about what thoseenvironments do to human beings.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Because I also was incarcerated for seven years
before.
So I kind of got a greatunderstanding of where you're
coming from, what you're talkingabout.
But to do 24 years and come outand be as strong as you are and
be a part of Moses, how do youcome home and get to this point?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
One of the key components to that is, I got to
a point where I understood thatthere was a greater then in my
life and started figuring out,you know, what I needed to do.
Number one to survive thatexperience, okay, and not lose
my mind.
Yeah, that's important.
Okay, I was very active in thatenvironment.
(05:06):
I found things that I couldspend my time and attention on,
that gave me a sense of myhumanity, my dignity, my artwork
, my reading, my education.
You know, went to school,acquired in a associate of our
degree.
While I was incarcerated I beganto figure out the value of
(05:26):
communication, the value oflanguage.
You know, never really knowingif I would ever step foot
outside that environment.
But you know, being there, Ihad to figure out how I could
live my best life while I wasthere, how I could maintain a
sense of independence andself-determination, and so
acquiring that in there I'm notgoing to say coming out may be a
(05:47):
piece of cake, because therewere still issues that I had to
figure out, you know, for myself, in consultation with some
others who had had similarexperiences that I had and who
were successful aftertransitioning out of
incarceration.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
What was that first step of coming home?
It's a lot easier to be sayinglike what we would do while
we're in that area, like we'rein the box, and be like man.
We're going to change our life,we're going to do this
different or we're not going todo this anymore.
When you got home after doingso much time, what was your
first steps of growth and movingforward in the community?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Well, the first thing was how to conquer fear.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, fear is important.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
How to conquer fear.
That was my thinking.
But then, talking again withsome of the individuals that I
had been keeping track of othermen who had gotten out and been
successful in terms of stayingout of prison is engaging them
in conversations that allowed meto focus on what was happening
to me in those situations whereI felt uncomfortable, where I
(06:49):
felt fearful, where I felt likethis is, I've got to go back to
all I know.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
That could come real fast.
It could come real fast whenthem pockets empty, especially
when everybody oh he home Rightright, right, and that's all
they know you for is likewhatever it was in the past when
you left them where.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Okay, and that's not just the guys in the street,
that's your family too.
Indeed, you know, if you gotchildren, all they know about
you is what you left them with,and if there's been a
transformation or a transitioninto you Becoming some one other
than the thing that you leftthem with no list of language.
Yeah, it can be challenging andit can be painful, because
(07:32):
sometimes you do have to makethat decision to separate from
on a permanent basis in order togive yourself Opportunity to
live a more quality life, abalanced life the word
Transformation.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
You use it strongly because I didn't talk to you and
I heard about, like thetransformation awards and the
events that you guys have to.
You know, in honor of thosethat came home with that mind
that you're speaking on and baby, to make Change and progress,
you know.
Could you give us a little moreon that?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Well, the foundation for Transformation begins with
the individual, or the personand the people that we honor and
what we call our gala.
Our transformation Celebration,is coming up December 9th.
It's at the brass works onWabisa Avenue here in Madison,
wisconsin, and so we have threehonorees.
Persons can go on our Website,moses Madison dot org, and all
(08:26):
that information is right down.
You have to do is click on abutton.
That book will take you to allthe information that you need to
know about the transformation.
So what is it again?
Moses Madison dot org?
It'll be from 530 to 9, andwell, I want to remind people
too about this particularcelebration.
It's that you know part of theproceeds go to a youth culinary
(08:48):
program.
And that's why we always havethis event most at the brass
works gets a ticket.
I believe that the ticket salesin November 22nd.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
That's good to know.
So yeah, ticket sales inNovember 22nd Make sure you go
get yours.
Be a part of this, becausethere's a lot to come next year
and we want to also honor thosethat's been working behind the
scenes that have yet to beennoticed, but you guys are making
sure that they noticed hey,come, come and support out of
the box always, because there'sno standard to determine, you
(09:24):
know, outside of the person.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It's about empowering the individual to the degree
that they deem necessary or notTo tell us how they've
transformed.
Maybe in the past I wasn't thetype of individual who
understood the value of myfamily how I do.
That's a transformation.
Okay, I never had a job.
Now I possess a work ethic.
That's a transformation.
(09:48):
Okay so it doesn't have to be.
You know, I came home, you know, and coming home I have 50, 50
K, and then I did this and I didthat.
No, we're looking for thosethings that are meaningful in
your existence, in your life,that you are willing to share,
okay, with the people who willcome and celebrate with you, and
sometimes those people arepeople who don't even know you
(10:11):
but are Inspired by your processof transformation, by you
sharing your reality.
You know, and what I findfascinating about it you know
because I was one of the firstrecipients of this.
What I found so transformativeand so eye-opening was that, you
know, individuals began toengage with me and having those
conversations and sharing withme those times in their lives
(10:33):
when transformation was neededand necessary, and how they were
able to accomplish thoseTransformations to a degree that
it was satisfactory number onefor them, and then for the other
individuals that they'reconnected to.
Okay, it's a process.
It's like everything in life.
It's a process you and I weretalking about.
You know children and how theirstage is a development man Look
(10:54):
, I'm 64 years old, 40 years ago.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I'll never engage you in that conversation.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
You know there was, there had never been a
foundation.
Late for that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah.
So for those like coming homeand, like you know, trying to,
like that, have that same visionthat they have yet found, like
how do you guys, you know, likehow they able to contact you and
Get it, get in tune with what'sgoing on?
Because I feel like what youguys are doing is important,
because, like with me personallyComing home and being able to
(11:27):
say that I'm not gonna do what Iwas once doing which was
successful for me, I thought itwas successful, you know, even
with all the things that comewith it.
I had the mind state that itwas successful when I'm making
this money, everybody loving you.
But when you, when you don'thave nothing, then you know, you
, like you know, is no one there.
So it's like when you come homeand you know you have such a
(11:51):
strong transformation takes alot, you know, like just like
even with the founder, becausethe family goes through it with
you like how do we come homefrom there and find that job or
Find that help?
Like where is the help?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, number one, you got to figure out whether or
not you are coming home.
Does home exist for you outhere anymore?
Okay, and if it doesn't, how doyou develop that?
That takes a level ofintentionality.
It takes being able to say no,I, and have your yes and no have
the same power.
Okay, in those spaces where youknow the yes is acceptable.
(12:32):
But then if I come and you havea specific request, will my no
be just as acceptable?
Okay, no, I'm not gonna engage.
You know, I'm man, I'm numb,bro, I'm not going to get high
with you, you know.
Oh man, you scared, you're aprick.
No, but that's a decision thatI made.
That's in my best interest.
Okay, thank you.
(12:53):
No, I am no longer that.
Okay, I'm not only seeking tobecome someone else, I am
someone else and stand on that.
You know.
Exercise that courage.
Okay, to not be defined outsideof who you are, but being able
to define who you are frominside.
That's that strength, that'swhat brings that character.
(13:15):
Okay, that's what puts otherson notice.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Something's gonna buy them.
Yeah, so they're gonna have tomove different with you.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Okay, so you know, or even if they don't move with
you, let them move without you.
You know your purpose is tostand on your values, your
principles, your beliefs, yourmorals, and if other people
aren't accepting of that, youknow, let the message be.
The last time you saw me, I wasstanding and headed in another
(13:43):
direction, and that'stransformation.
It's that simple.
Okay, right, but then again, weare social creatures, so seek
those environments where you'regonna have those productive and
positive interactions, thesupport for the transformation
that you are in the process ofinstilling within yourself.
Exhibit that to the best ofyour ability in your external
(14:04):
person.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You know it takes a lot to have that transformation
when there's so many thingsaround you that can bring you
back into what you know, which,and I feel, like you know, with
the things you guys are doing,the motivation behind being
nominated from.
You know from that and, likeman, you're doing your thing,
(14:27):
you working a job, or you cameout here you're trying to change
the youth life.
Things like that are, you know,not seen.
So like with Moses, like youguys are bringing it to the
table.
How do you feel about being apart of that personally?
It's a gift.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I feel honored.
You know there are somecriticisms with it.
Come along with it and I'm notgoing to say that it all feels
good.
But I didn't come into thespace with the intentionality of
merely feeling good.
I knew that it was going torequire a certain level of
sacrifice, okay.
I knew that it was going to be,you know, going to be pushed
back, okay.
(15:04):
So coming into the space, Iprepared myself for that, okay.
So you know, it's easy to talkabout it.
It's another thing to do it.
It may sound humorous to somepeople, or some people may say
man, I ain't trying to hear that.
But I remember sitting in prisonman and I watched this movie
(15:25):
and this character in the Batmanfilm said wait, do they get a
load of me?
I'm not saying that out of asense of arrogance, but I know
what I know.
I know what I know, but I alsoknow what I didn't know before
then that's very important, andwhen you just said it, it opened
(15:47):
my eyes.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
It's like everything I didn't know is what was more
important than what I did think,because I didn't know much
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right, right, and see , we always talking about I need
to learn, learn, learn, learn,learn, learn.
But I discovered in thatenvironment there was a lot that
I had to unlearn.
I had to create that space, youknow, so that my brain, my
brain, could be able to begin tofunction in a healthy way I
ain't gonna say normal, becauseevery brain is different, okay,
(16:20):
but it had to be able tofunction in a way that would
allow me to understand you know,the impact of these things that
are outside of me and the waythat they impact me that the
only way for me to be able toeven begin to navigate them was
I had to unlearn what had beentaught to me.
Okay, oh man, some of it had tobe totally destroyed.
(16:43):
Yeah, I get it.
You know my generations go backbefore.
There was even a person wholooked like me, say.
You know, like Malcolm wouldsay you know who, you know the
Mayflower.
All of these generationsunderstand that genealogy.
What happened?
Where did I come from?
Who am I?
Okay, you know understandingthings like the.
(17:04):
You know the migration of blackpeople from the South trying to
escape slavery and Jim Crow,and where were my family and
people?
And all of that andunderstanding that, to give it a
sense of who I am, you know bepeople being telling me that I'm
I can't be educated because I'ma little black boy.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Okay, and then going back and understanding that my
great grandparents wereeducators and teachers, you know
, and tapping into that sourceof me, that curiosity, you know
why am I always with a book inmy hand and reading, discovering
those new things about mycapacity and my power that had
been stripped away from me?
(17:43):
Okay, through the culture,through the society, you know,
through what I'm seeing here ina lot of places around our
country, where our families andour kids and everything else are
existing, in these communitiesof confinement that are being
built based on the language yeah, the stealing concrete shows up
, but it's based on the language.
(18:03):
And who's determining that?
Who's designing the maps, onwhose vote matters and whose
don't, you know.
And so you know, let's get backinto Moses here for a minute,
because those are the thingsthat we focus on, you know the
mapping, the gerrymandering ofthe maps, and whose vote counts
and how and why, and why it'simportant to vote to change our
situations and circumstances inthese communities and in our
(18:25):
neighborhoods.
Okay, educating people, youknow, understanding that that
educational situation of thatinstitution belongs to us and we
need to hold people accountableto that.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I had just recently learned from going to a few
events and being, you know,curious of what's really going
on behind the scenes because,like I say, behind the scenes is
where most things are beingdone the right way.
A lot of people on probationcannot vote.
If you got 20 years ofprobation, you, your voice,
you're not heard.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, let me ask you a question quick, just a quick
question.
While you were incarceratedthis was my experience I never
had a single individual while Iwas incarcerated say man, I want
to get my right to vote.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I mean Me personally didn't care to vote there you go
.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
You know there's a narrative in our community
historically that we ain't wehave.
It is a weed is one and we lookat one Timson one All right.
But you know resources,resources, man.
National elections is one thing, your local elections is
something totally different.
That's where you get your rolesrepaired, that's where you get
(19:32):
your financing for your schools,housing, all of that you know.
So we focus on education,educating people in those areas.
You know, if you've got, youknow here, particularly here in
Madison, you know the peoplethat we got making decisions
right now really don't careabout none of us Okay, we.
You know they got us caught upin this language game about.
(19:54):
You know.
You know this group of people,that group of people,
everybody's looking at everybodyelse and I'm this and I'm that
and at the end of the day, youknow they go in there and put us
all in one cup of water, callminorities and move on, all
right, but those resourcesbecome valuable and important.
Get in your car and go on thesouth side of Madison or some of
(20:17):
these areas where you don'teven want to drive your car
because it's all towed up, andthen you go on the white on the
west side and the streets arereal smooth and all that that's
voting.
Right, that's representation,okay, and and and the part that
I really truly don't get.
I'm saying I don't get it, butI do because there are people in
(20:38):
these spaces who it's all abouttheir self-interest, the
population of people who aresuffering, not having the
information or the understandingRight.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
What I don't you know , it's not just until recently
that I learned that howimportant our vote is for like
those type of things, becausewhen you say vote, people think
president, senator, likeRepublican Democrat, no one
thinking about.
Oh yeah, well, this part, thishelps our roles or this helps
our school system, which youknow.
I feel like it's a lot of workthat needs to be done in the
(21:09):
school system these days.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Everybody in prison right now.
If you were in Green Bay, thetax dollars that would normally
go to your community to supportfunding schools in your area and
all those things you being inwhen I was in Green Bay I
understood, and even when I wasin Tennessee, that being on
their voter rolls increasestheir financial capacity to fund
(21:33):
their schools, access tomedical care and everything else
.
So if I'm sitting in prison andmy family in Milwaukee, I'm
paying for the families up therein Green.
Bay.
Okay, they're increased taxdollars in Green Bay.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
But they're in that Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So, again, man, understanding and beginning to
look at these things and lookingat number one, your value, your
own personal value and yourworth, and what you have the
capacity to do to change yoursituation and transform and in
transforming you, you transformyour family, your children.
Okay, you open the doors forthem.
Okay, to be able to potentiallyexperience some of the things
(22:14):
that we aren't experiencingright now.
You know, freedom of choice,freedom of autonomy to be who I
am.
For me, first, you know, andpeople are talking about well,
everybody's welcome here.
Well, you're welcome here,we're welcome in the environment
.
I don't really want to bewelcomed.
If acceptance is the goal, thenyou accept me for who I am and
(22:37):
what I bring, not just to thetable.
Um, most people, when they pullup to a table, there's a chair
to sit on right.
Don't just give me a spot atthe table and I can't have a
seat and be part of thedecision-making process.
All right, you want me to feelgood?
Ah no, my feel good issomething that as a standard
(22:59):
within me.
I'm going to feel good becauseI know who I am.
I know the foundation for myideas and my beliefs and my
personhood.
That's going to make me feelgood and you're going to get to
experience that when you see me,you'll fit man this is.
You know this.
This is messaging.
I am.
You know I don't want to goback to Jesse that I am somebody
(23:20):
.
I ain't talking to thatrhetoric.
I'm talking about deeplyknowing who you are and what you
possess.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Before you, before you leave out the door.
When you leave out the door,you have to have that confidence
because people feel when youain't confident and you know you
become a target for you knowgrief or disappointment and
stuff like that, because you,given that look to the people
that's in front of you, versusknowing who you are, and I feel
(23:48):
like coming home from you knowthose places.
It's important that we havethat confidence and work on that
confidence.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Confidence and courage, man, but here's, here's
, here's one of the things towatch out for in that confidence
and courage and people whodon't know you will perceive it
as arrogance and I've had toaddress that.
You know, with audiences, okay,but that's because I had other
people in the room who I was inrelationship with, who could say
(24:19):
to me after the fact you know,man, I think you came off this
way with this particularaudience, okay, and being non
arrogant, I took the opportunityto go back and reassess, okay,
because I definitely don't wantto send the wrong message.
Okay, you know, I want mymessage to be clear, you know am
(24:41):
I message is one of humanity.
Okay, respect, dignity.
Okay, love, unconditional love.
People talk about it all thetime, but they don't know what
that is.
Boundary setting, so that Iknow, when I step into a space,
that I'm bringing my own safetywith you.
Yeah, I rely on somebody elseto create a space that's safe
(25:04):
for me.
Okay, and we learn those thingswhen we incarcerated, you know,
but I have to do it in a waythat's healthy, you know,
because a lot of us come homeand we're hyper vigilant.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, everybody, you know, like everything, everybody
suspect.
You figure it out, you knoweverybody suspect.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Okay, but then figuring out, how do I balance?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
How do I find that so that that vigilance is a
healthy one?
For me that's not a distractionin my life easy.
It's not easy because a lot ofit happens to us on the
subconscious level.
That's.
You know and I heard me saythis before incarceration does
different things to differentpeople.
And for those who have neverexperienced incarceration, yeah,
(25:46):
I don't feel there's no, you'veescaped, because guess what
life was different things todifferent people.
So there's a similarity thereis to what degree Individual or
group of individuals decide topay attention to it, because
that's another thing that's veryimportant it's figuring out and
learning how to pay attentionhere is important because even
in in those spaces, like, if youhave your mind, you can get a
(26:10):
lot further in places, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But when that's gone, it's like you know you stuck in
wherever you at.
I believe a lot of people likefor like.
When we talk about confidence,it starts up here.
You know you, like man, I mightnot be able to succeed in this
and this going on and you knowyou questioning yourself before
you even had the opportunity.
Once again, james, we thank youfor showing up being a part of
(26:33):
this and this is out of the boxpodcast.
I'm your host, kingstonRobinson.
I.
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