In this episode of Over The Bull, Ken Carroll walks through the early planning stages of helping a current client—a custom cabinet maker—explore a new business direction: storage solutions for mudrooms, pantries, and laundry rooms.
This isn’t a success story (yet). It’s a behind-the-scenes look at the real questions, trade-offs, and strategy conversations that happen when a business wants to grow but needs to do it wisely.
From evaluating the market and setting priorities to juggling a budget and avoiding common traps, this episode is ideal for business owners who are in the “what’s next?” phase and want to build a smarter path forward.
Over The Bull is brought to you by IntegrisDesign.com. All rights reserved.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You're listening to Over the Bull, where we cut
through marketing noise.
Here's your host,
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Ken Carroll.
So you want to expand yourbusiness or you have a new idea,
but you don't know exactly howto go about it.
There are so many choices and somany options.
Oftentimes, trying to get thingsstarted is a lot different than
trying to keep momentum forsomething you already have.
If you're starting a newbusiness or you're trying to
(00:28):
grow in other areas, thisepisode of Over the Bull is for
you.
So a client of ours came intothe office and he works in
cabinets.
And he does a really good job ofcabinets, and he's been doing
it, gosh, for a long time.
And he's been a client of oursprobably for a little less than
10 years, probably.
(00:50):
And he wanted to expand hisbusiness into doing things like
closets and storage spaces.
Now, this particular client, hehas a large building.
outside of an interstate.
And on that building, he has thebig words, custom cabinets.
(01:11):
And from that traffic, he gets alot of business.
And he also gains business fromour Google business
optimization, our websiteoptimization, and not as much on
paid ads.
And so he wanted to expand intobeing able to offer custom
storage spaces for homes, youknow, like pantries and
(01:34):
bathrooms and closets andgarages and mudrooms and things
like that.
And so his whole objective withmeeting me this week was to kind
of talk about, well, what do Ido and how do I expand into it?
So he came with some ideas.
And so essentially, even thoughhe's well established, he's
trying to crack a new marketwithin the business that he's
(01:57):
already working in.
So those questions, one, how doI expand into this other
division digitally?
He's also bought another, notbought, but leased another area
of the building beside wherehe's at.
He wondered what kind of signageto put out that would capture
people's attention.
And then he wondered exactlywhat he should do.
(02:19):
So he came with like ideas oflike, do I have a separate
website or the same website?
Because the price points weredifferent for the two products.
Now, before we go deeper intothis, I want to kind of break
down a little bit about hiscurrent status prior to coming
into the office.
Number one, he has a websitethat does custom cabinets.
(02:44):
and that Custom Cabinets websiteis performing well for him.
He's got a Google Businessprofile that's also working well
for him as well.
He wanted to have a separatewebsite built for the storage
components or the storagefeatures because he didn't want
(03:04):
to muddy the water because theprice points for his cabinets
are a lot different than theprice points for storage.
And what he felt was that itwould be diluted if he were to
put something on his websitethat has that lower price point.
Then he has the words customcabinets huge on his warehouse.
(03:30):
And it catches a lot of people'sattention, and he likes the way
that that worked too.
So we had to come up with someideas about what to put on this
building years ago when he hadthe space.
And the idea was to put somemessages up there that were very
obvious as to what he did.
And so custom cabinets was alogical way to do that.
(03:54):
We also had just finishedrebranding everything when he
first came on with us.
And so we had the challenges ofa new domain name, new branding,
getting his Google businessprofile updated with the right
information, a lot of thingslike that, a lot of logistical
challenges.
And those can be challenges,especially when you're trying to
(04:15):
gain momentum for essentially anew website address.
So once we crossed all thosehurdles, this is where we're
kind of at as of today.
He's happy with the amount oftraffic that he's getting, and
he wants to kind of get the samemomentum for this new division.
Now, as I mentioned, the newdivision, it's a good market,
(04:37):
but the price point is not quitethe same as cabinets.
And the reason being is itdoesn't require the same amount
of energy, effort, resources,you know, all those other things
in order to produce it.
So it's a lucrative market if hecan get into it and he would do
a much better job than mostother people in his market.
(05:00):
So here we are.
How do we eat this elephant?
He's sitting down in my officewith me and wanting to know what
do we do to grow this newstorage end of the business.
Now, when he came down, as Imentioned, he had these ideas.
Should we do social?
Should we do paid ads?
(05:21):
Should we do organic searchengine optimization?
Should we continue to have aseparate website?
Should we combine those twowebsites?
Would that create confusion?
Just lots of questions.
So the first thing is if westand back and analyze exactly
what he's trying to do, thecabinets and the storage spaces
(05:47):
have a logical continuitybetween the two.
So the challenge is not whetheror not they would fit together
on one website.
The question is more about pricepoint.
You know, would that possiblydilute one product?
Or if they saw the prices of thecabinets and everything with
(06:09):
that, would they think that hisstorage spaces were also going
to be too pricey compared to hiscompetitors?
Then, of course, he's also gotthe logistics of the can
solutions of different kind ofkits that you can buy for those
kind of spaces versus what heoffers.
(06:30):
And then he's got an idea of thecompetitors that he's looking at
and what they offer.
And so breaking all this downisn't as simple as just dropping
a couple pages on his websitefor storage spaces.
There is actually a lot thatgoes into it, and a lot of his
comments have a lot ofcredibility.
(06:53):
Now, the first thing is to thinkabout, well, this guy's in
tuned, right?
You know, he's not just sayingadd a couple pages to my
website.
He's thinking about hisdemographic.
He's thinking about how theywould shop for these two
different products in twodifferent ways.
And it's very reasonable tothink like that.
(07:14):
And so breaking it down into twowebsites historically made
sense.
Now, It also was in tuned withhow he was selling and marketing
product.
He wasn't trying to sell thestorage directly on the
internet, um, through paidadvertising or things like that.
He was going to use it more asa, um, kind of like an accent
(07:39):
offering that he would dothrough his sales effort and
things like that.
He wasn't really looking at adeliberate, intentional, kind of
what we would call a primary,um, sales.
Cause you know, a lot of timesin sales, you have things where
you bring people in on oneoffering, but then you want to
sell them on other offeringsonce they come into your
(08:01):
business.
And so his primary effort wascabinets and then storage was a
secondary effort.
And it was his strategy.
And honestly, he just kind ofcame to us and asked us to put
it together because he was goingto use it and kind of explore
and dabble a little bit in thestorage arena.
But here he is.
(08:21):
He's had success at it, and nowhe wants to get more deliberate
with the effort, and he'sbringing these questions to the
table.
Now, there's another aspect tothis client that I have to
consider, and that is hisinvestment in terms of resources
for actual advertising.
It's how much business does heneed in all actuality.
(08:46):
It's the kind of market positionthat he has versus the
do-it-yourself kits and thingslike that that's out there
within the market.
And it's also looking at wherehis level of comfort is going to
be in all of this, because I'veworked with him for some time.
(09:06):
I know that he doesn't want toput a lot of money in
advertising dollars, but he'sopen to the concept of it.
And he's done some minorimprovements.
work years and years ago, but itwasn't enough of a budget to
really make a dent in what he'strying to accomplish.
So let's talk about that for asecond.
(09:29):
When you're looking at sellingthings on the internet, there is
a concept of, well, how longdoes it take someone to be ready
to make a decision from thefirst time they engage with your
company?
Now, This is usually calledsomething like the buyer's
journey or the customer journey.
(09:51):
And there's a lot of factorsthat go into it, such as, you
know, is it an impulse purchase?
So we have a lot of luck in thetourism industry selling low
price point tickets.
But when it becomes a higherprice point ticket, the
customer's decision is morecomplex because it requires more
(10:12):
of an investment.
There's more of a thoughtprocess involved in that.
And so when you look at what hewas trying to do with paid ads,
the customer journey was morelengthy.
You know, just think of it likethis.
You're looking for T-shirts.
You know, you're going to spend$10 or$20 on shirts.
(10:33):
Well, that's a pretty easydecision.
But if you're looking to buy acar, well, that decision is more
complicated.
And then if you combine thatwith the buying cycle, the sell
cycle, or the...
the ecosystem, which is anotherterm for it.
People, when they approach yourwebsite, based upon the way that
(10:54):
you engage them on the internet,they may have already done a lot
of homework and they may becloser to making that purchase
decision.
However, if they've never heardof you before or they need to
investigate you as a companyversus other companies, then
that can also require a littlebit more time to engage with
(11:15):
them and gain their trust.
And so that leads to, well, howdo we first engage someone who
may be ready to purchasecabinets but may not trust a new
company they've never heard ofbefore?
You know, we need low commitmentofferings.
We need ways to help customersfeel more comfortable to make
(11:37):
that first layer of engagement.
Now, when you're buying tens ofthousands of dollars of cabinets
for a home and there aredifferent choices out there,
then of course to give someonethat level of comfort is more
complex than telling someonethat they can buy a t-shirt.
(11:57):
And the worst thing that happensis it doesn't fit and you send
it back or lose 20 bucks orsomething.
Just not that big of a deal.
So if we circle back around tothe concept of him wanting to
not merge his custom cabinetswith the custom storage
elements, you can quickly seewhy that that could also create
(12:20):
layers of confusion or instantpoints of confusion.
this guy is going to be tooexpensive compared to other
people or other options, or maynot be the right option in this
case.
So as you can see, as you breakit down, it's really not just as
simple as saying, I'm going toadd storage offerings on the
(12:44):
cabinet website.
And essentially, This is a newbusiness.
Even though he's got a websiteand he's got all the pieces in
place, he's got a ton ofexperience, he sells cabinets,
it's a natural extension, butthe market is completely
different.
So in essence, this division islike spinning up a new business,
(13:05):
even though it's already anestablished company.
So what do we do?
How do we help this customer outand how do we help them turn the
corner was a big question.
And as you can see, there's alot of inroads and outroads when
it comes to this stuff.
And there isn't necessarily abad decision.
(13:26):
The question is, is where do westart?
How do we test it?
And what makes the most sensefor the budget and what he's
trying to accomplish that meanseverything from his marketing
budget to his productioncapacity to the competitors that
are out there?
giving him a strategic advantagebased upon what he offers, and
(13:48):
kind of culminating all thisinto something that's tenable,
something that he's going tolike, and something that does
give him the maximum opportunityto succeed.
Because from a marketingstandpoint, here's the
challenge.
You know, you want customers tostart to see that the benefit of
(14:09):
what's going on because you wantto make them have confidence in
what you're offering.
And so there is this kind oflike ramp up time.
No matter what you do, there's aramp up time.
So one of the common things inmarketing is people will tell
you, you know, that they can docertain things in certain
timelines or things like that.
And it's just simply not true.
(14:30):
It's just simply not true thatyou could spin up his campaign
and then just automaticallystart bringing in new business
for him simply because he'salready established and has
credibility.
Now, we may be able to add theoffering and trickle in some
business from that.
And again, sometimes we do hitthe home run.
(14:52):
But in this case, I'm notfeeling that that home run is
going to happen right out thegate.
So question number one is, well,what should he do as far as
marketing?
Here we are.
We're at the crossroads.
Now, the one thing that I alsoneed to consider is his
understanding of the market.
(15:12):
So my inclination is to combineboth products on one website and
kind of deal with the hurdle ofthe price structure.
Because his cabinets, they gointo nice homes.
He doesn't build these littlestandard kits that you buy
online.
I mean, he can build thesecabinets to the inch.
(15:33):
He measures every single place.
Whenever I go out with him anddo photo shoots, he's looking at
each cabinet as far as like howthe doors line up.
He's looking at the hinges.
He's looking at where they'repositioned.
He's looking at every singleelement, even the wood grain
this guy pays attention to.
So his target audience, evenwhen it comes to storage, you
(15:58):
know, mudrooms, pantries,bathrooms, things like that,
they're also going to be of thecaliber where they're going to
want something that is a littlenicer than the average bear
gets, and they can afford to payfor that as well.
which to me is a signal thatmaybe this price point is not
(16:19):
quite as big of a deal as maybehe thinks it is in his market.
However, I do have to respecthis understanding within his
market.
So you see there's a trick here.
There's this push-pull, and ifmy client did not come in and
sit down with me and talk to meabout this, then I would not
have inserted that into theequation.
(16:41):
Now, after carefully weighing itand looking at his competition
that does offer the cheapersolutions, I'm going to give him
the option of two paths.
So for me, I don't think thatthe price point is that big of a
deal, especially given that heneeds to carve out a niche
(17:03):
within his market, which meansthat he needs to be probably the
more accurate guy.
Everything that he's done isbased on accuracy, high quality,
great workmanship.
things like that.
And so my recommendation islet's go ahead and combine the
two and let's carve out thatniche, which will give us a few
(17:25):
benefits.
Benefit number one is we haveonly one website to manage,
which also means we only haveone website to worry about its
reputation and its credibility.
And we can piggyback off thecredibility of what else he
does.
And so by doing that, we're kindof gaining momentum right out of
(17:47):
the gate.
Now, again, I'm not that worriedabout the price point based upon
what I've seen within the marketand where he's at.
Now, once we...
do that and we build that out,then what we'll do is probably
take the website that we havebuilt that he was using as just
(18:09):
like a secondary revenue streamfor his business.
And we will likely take that anddo a 301 redirect back to that
main page of storage on hiscurrent website.
So what that means is a 301 is afancy way to say you take, like,
(18:30):
say, for example, mydomain.com,and then you've got
mydomain2.com.
What you would do is you'd pointmydomain2.com to mydomain.com
slash storage.
And that way, that domain willtake people right into that one
(18:50):
section.
And that's just to kind ofcapture any momentum, any kind
of cards or anything that he'shanded out using that website
address so he doesn't lose thatin the process.
And a domain, it's only going tocost about$20 a year.
And so it's not really a biginvestment to go ahead and do
it, even if it gains minimaltraction from what we're trying
(19:12):
to do.
Now, I'm also going to give himoption number two.
Because you've got to thinkabout, I've got to respect him
and where he's at because heknows his market more than me.
Yeah, I've been around since theearly 90s doing marketing and
different things within thespectrum, but I'm not living day
in and day out in his business.
(19:33):
And so the other option is webreak out to site number two.
Now, the downside is...
Do we piggyback back into thecabinet business?
Does that look kind of squirrelyto do that as a separate
website?
Does it make sense to do that?
The downside is it's going totake more effort to manage two
(19:55):
websites.
It's going to take more effortto build credibility for two
websites.
Also manage all the othernuances as well.
What do you do when it comes toGoogle business?
Do you build another profile?
Do you not build anotherprofile?
Would it be considered aseparate entity as far as how he
structures it?
(20:15):
Is he going to start a new DBAthat he would put this under or
to be his other?
Because there are certainregulations with Google business
when you go in and you startbuilding all this stuff out.
It's not just simply going intoGoogle business and just
spinning up another free profilepage.
There's a lot more that goesinto the logistics of it.
(20:38):
And if you don't do itcorrectly, those listings can
get suspended because Googledoes have certain rules.
Like, for example, one of theclassic ones are people who try
to put keyword phrases thatrelate to their business in the
name of their business in theirGoogle profile.
For example, if I put IntegrisDesign Web Design, I'm putting a
(21:00):
keyword that's not the name ofmy company as the title of my
company.
And I have actually seenmarketing people go in and make
this recommendation because theysay that it gains momentum.
Some will even go as far as tosay, spin up a DB And make sure
you put your keyword actually init so that you can legally get
away with it.
But here's the deal.
(21:20):
If Google doesn't like it andthey suspend it, they're going
to suspend it.
And I've seen those thingshappen a lot with one particular
company we work with that athird party.
Basically, it's a franchise andthe franchisees were following
some bad advice.
And so we've had to kind of goback in and bring that back in.
(21:42):
So as you can see, it gets alittle complicated.
But if we do that, then what wewould do is spin up a separate
website market to that secondwebsite.
Now, the pro, if we're going topull out the pros, is that
people who are looking probablyfor storage units, like for
mudrooms and all that, theyprobably don't want to go
through the whole cabinetsection.
(22:03):
So the cabinet section could bea distraction rather than
something that would help themmake a decision on whether or
not to use HandMark considerhim, meaning that, you know, if
his primary efforts or effortsare cabinets and then he then
they see this little thing onthe side, then they kind of have
(22:24):
to weed through the cabinetsection to find the other
section.
Now, at first blush, you wouldthink, well, that's really not
that big of a deal.
Well, it could be a big deal.
And the reason being is whensomeone comes to your website,
you literally have 7 to 10seconds to catch their
attention.
(22:45):
So the question is how in thefirst 7 to 10 seconds do we get
someone's attention if we'reshowing a bunch of really
high-end cabinets and we'retrying to convey the idea that
we do storage for closets, whichare kind of different.
And so by having a separatewebsite, it can be nothing but
the storage.
(23:06):
You know, we can go straightinto pantries and bathrooms and
things like that.
Well, on the cabinet's website,we have to kind of, if we
combine the two, we're going tohave to find a way to disperse
those two elements and make itmake a lot of sense.
So from a marketing perspective,both could work.
(23:26):
Different amounts of work wouldgo into each one of them.
And being able to give bothoptions to the client and let
them choose, and then being ableto see the logistical challenges
of one of the options versus theother options will be one of the
things in which he will get tomake that decision.
(23:48):
Now, my role is...
to look at what he suggests,take his input in and then
cultivate a plan around hisdecision.
And so if he comes back andsays, yep, let's go ahead and
combine those two sites togetherinto one, then I can see the
search engine optimizationbenefits.
(24:09):
I can see how having additionalcontent is going to help.
I can see how we could have amuch more robust website for the
one versus having two kind ofmicro websites where if we do
those two micro websites, thenwe have to clearly convey to the
client that, From an organicperspective, we're kind of
(24:31):
rebooting the process, whichthen takes us to the next point.
And that is, do we worry aboutsearch engine optimization right
now?
And to what degree do we worryabout it?
You see, these are blasphemousdecisions, you know, to some
people.
Well, of course, you've got towork on search engine
(24:51):
optimization.
And of course, you've got tobuild that into the plan.
Well, no, that's not necessarilytrue.
You see, from a businessstandpoint, your goal is to not
follow a standard process thatmakes you feel good or satisfies
some itch in marketing anddesign.
(25:11):
The goal is pretty simple.
The goal is to drive people thatare more likely interested to
buy your products so that youhave an opportunity to sell them
on those products.
It's pretty much that easy.
Now, if you can stand on theside of the road and fulfill
your coffers and have enoughproduction, holding a sign up on
(25:33):
the side of the road andbringing people in versus
spending 20 times as much doingpaid advertising on the
Internet, then you probably wantto hire that guy to stand on the
side of the road and hold a signup and dance, right?
So the same thing is true withthe Internet.
And so when we break these twosides down, we could decide to
(25:56):
go with the paid ad strategy andnot even worry about the organic
implications.
Now, of course, there's alwaysthings that you want to do as
best practices for search engineoptimization.
There are certain sitestructures and considerations
that go into it.
And of course, yes, yes, yes,there's a good argument for
(26:16):
building up an SEO planlong-term.
100%, there's a great argumentfor content marketing.
100%, there's a great argumentfor social media posting.
100%, there's a great argumentfor paid advertising.
100%, there's a milliondifferent ways to dive into this
(26:37):
and build a strategy.
Now, the question is not...
Should you do all of them or,you know, fall for whatever
argument you have?
Because in marketing, you alsohave to remember that you got
the marketer too, right?
And so if the marketing personhas the capability to offer
(26:58):
social media posting, they'regoing to give you all the
reasons that you should be usingsocial media for this marketing
strategy, right?
Just like if you're specializingin paid ads with Google, well,
of course, everything should bepaid ads.
If you're a search engineoptimization guy, well, of
course, search engineoptimization should be what you
(27:20):
should concentrate on.
But the reality is, no.
The reality is that's not true.
The reality is you are trying tosell a product or a service to
people and you want to get tothem in the most effective way
possible within a budget thatyour business can manage.
Now for small businesses andstartups, there is a balance.
(27:41):
There is no unlimited budget.
There is no unlimited let's waitfor return on investment.
There is no money generated frombest practices with putting in
certain tags on a website.
Now, of course, there are goodpractices and certain ones
should be followed.
But if you get lost in the weedsof trying to chase all these
(28:03):
little details, it's going tobecome a distraction for your
business.
It's not going to be optimizedin the right way.
And frankly, it's not going towork.
And you're probably going to runout of money before you get to
see the fruits of it or justgive up on it.
I mean, that's just the realityof business.
So if we circle back around,then the idea is, okay, if we go
(28:24):
with option number two and webuild out this microsite, then
we're probably going to go intothe world of paid advertising.
Now, of course, we have to thinkabout the value proposition and
we've got to think about thoseemotional triggers that we
talked about in the last podcastto make sure we have the right
(28:44):
call to action.
But there are some benefits torunning paid ads initially.
Number one, it's more instantgratification.
Search engine optimization isnot overnight.
There's not magic to it.
It requires work because Googlewants the most credible websites
to pop up in the search resultsbecause that makes their search
(29:04):
engines more valuable to theaverage person.
And so you've got to buildcredibility up, and there are
ways to do that over a period oftime.
Conversely, why you do paid adsis you get this kind of ability
to promote and advertise withinyour market and you get to do it
fairly instantly.
Now, when I say instantly, whatI mean is that you can launch
(29:27):
the ads, you know, pretty muchas pretty quick.
I mean, we can launch themwithin a day.
But the idea is once you launchthem, then you also need to
track their results.
You need to modify them, changethem.
And now you've got to giveGoogle the opportunity to kind
of understand what you're tryingto achieve through those ads and
give it time to work throughthat and build up that, for lack
(29:51):
of a better word, understandingof meaningful actions for those
ads, which means you've got toinvest in paid ads and the time
it takes in order to figurethose things out.
Because even within Google,you've got, gosh, I don't know
how many ways, probably eightdifferent ways that you can
initially set up ads.
(30:12):
And then there are subsetswithin each one of those that
can impact what you're doing.
But if we have the separatewebsite concept, then we're
probably going to lean moreheavily on paid advertising.
So then we have the nextquestion, the sales funnel.
Because you can do paidadvertising in Meta.
(30:34):
You can do paid advertising onGoogle.
You can do paid advertising onMeta and Google.
You could do paid advertising onLinkedIn.
There's lots of different placesthat you can do paid
advertising, even onpublications that are real
popular in storage or whatever.
You could even do advertisingwithin that spectrum as well.
(30:54):
So you see, it gets more andmore complicated as you go.
But we need to simplify itbecause we're going to have a
very simple budget to work withand a very simple premise, and
we're trying to do what we wouldcall a proof of concept.
So to come back around on it,regardless of which way that he
takes...
We're probably going to leanheavily on paid advertising
(31:17):
initially.
And then what we're going to doif he does option number one is
we're going to put in a lot moreoptimization factors into that
product.
We're going to recommend that healso does a lot more when it
comes to content marketing.
We're going to piggyback off ofthe effort that he's already got
(31:38):
in cabinets, and we're going togo after a more exclusive market
when it comes to People who arelooking for storage solutions,
you know, people who care aboutthings that fit in nice tight
spaces.
Versus someone who is going touse– back in drafting in high
school, we would call it themake-it-fit method.
(31:58):
The reason we called it that wasbecause if you got close enough,
you were graded on a curve.
If you could follow directionsto kind of make it look somewhat
like it, he would– theinstructor in the mechanical
engineering or drafting class,he would grade on a curve based
upon how close you got it.
So we had this thing called themake-it-fit method.
(32:20):
And so people who want thingsexact.
Now, so paid ads areinteresting.
Uh, because they can do a lot ofthings for him regardless of
which path that he takes.
Now, one gives us a little morestrength to start working on
organic placement.
Um, we've already got ourcredibility kind of stacked up a
(32:41):
little bit.
We've already got our, ourprofile situated.
We've already optimized the, uh,what we would call the NAP
score, uh, name, address, phonenumber for his Google business.
Uh, we've already done thosethings.
Um, but paid advertising canwork either way.
Uh, Now, what's great about paidadvertising is And by the way,
(33:01):
I've won awards on search engineoptimization.
Big believer in search engineoptimization.
Matter of fact, I do know thatit still converts at a very high
rate.
For those of you wondering,should you do paid or organic?
There are statistics out thereto show that up to 60% of people
make decisions in the sponsoredor paid area versus the organic
(33:25):
area.
So ultimately, best idea, bestworld ever.
What should you do?
The answer is yes, you should bein both places.
But if you have to choose basedupon logistical factors, like in
this one, paid ads make a lot ofsense.
Now, the reason they also makesense is we can perform things
like keyword research to findthe best keywords, which, by the
(33:48):
way, if you ever do a searchengine optimization campaign,
you should have a set ofresearch performed in your
specific area about keywordvolumes before the first
optimization is done andunderstand exactly what's going
on.
And you should also have acompetitive approach.
(34:09):
research perform too to see whatyour competitors are targeting
and what's most successful forthem.
All that can be found before youdo the first search engine
optimization.
If someone's jumping into it andsaying they're optimizing your
website and they didn't give youthe data, it's kind of like you
preparing to go on vacation andnot knowing if you're going to
go skiing or go to the beach.
(34:30):
It makes absolutely no sense notto have a bearing on what you're
trying to get your websiteranked for on the Quick tip, if
someone's selling you a searchengine optimization campaign,
and at the very least they didnot give you a keyword analysis
based upon your service area,not based in the United States,
(34:52):
based in your service area, thenit's going to have minimal
results because you don't knowwhat you're trying to hit
anyway.
And if you don't have acompetitive research, to me that
just seems...
kind of outrageous because yourcompetitors, why would you not
want to use that data,especially knowing that search
(35:13):
engine optimization is one ofthese deals that's kind of, it's
a lengthy thing.
It's not like you're just goingdown to the store to grab a
drink.
You're actually taking a longtrip with search engine
optimization over a period oftime.
And you want to make sure thatthe effort that you're doing are
for searches, which are whatkeywords are, means what you
(35:36):
type in to Google that thosewords are the most effective
keywords and why would you notspend a little bit more money to
understand your competitorsbefore going into such an
endeavor.
But if we jump back to the paidadvertising portion of this,
then we can look at a couple ofother things that are really
(35:56):
interesting too.
We can actually quantify thosekeywords in a very unique way
before we do the first bit ofSEO.
What I mean by that is if wetake, say, for example, we
target mudrooms, pantries,garages, closets, laundry rooms,
whatever may have you.
(36:17):
And then we go back and we putthose things into a paid ad
campaign, even with data that weget directly from Google based
on the geo and everything likethat.
Then we can actually run thosekeywords and we can find which
ones are the most effective forhis business and positioning.
Then we can evaluate it and say,okay, is it something we're
(36:40):
doing wrong on why we're notconverting better in other
arenas?
Or is that naturally stronger inhis target geographic areas?
You see, and then once weunderstand those data points,
Then what we could do is go backand retroactively start making
some search engine optimizationdecisions based upon real-world
(37:03):
data, based upon how his websiteis engaged with by potential
customers.
So in other words, we quantifythe keywords before jumping into
search engine optimization.
And so there's a benefit torunning paid ads.
Now, the next question is,should we run them on...
(37:24):
Facebook or Meta as well?
Or should we just run them onGoogle initially?
And then how does that work?
Because part of what we want todo is we want people to be
exposed to the brand and wantpeople to click through and see
it.
But then after they do a littlebit of homework, we don't want
them to forget him.
(37:44):
And so there's a couple ofdifferent ways to do that.
You can do retargeting campaignsin Google where you can stay in
front of those people.
Or within Meta, you could try toalso broadcast to similar people
in places, blah, blah, blah,within Meta's sphere too.
(38:05):
And if you keep in mind thatGoogle is for direct searches
and Meta is more for targetinggroups and audiences in a
different way, and knowing thatwe have a limited budget and
knowing what this market is,we're going to probably start
with paid advertising on Google.
(38:26):
And then what we're going to dois see if we can start to gain
momentum and conversions andinterest in that arena through
initial marketing and someretargeting strategies, which
maybe I'll talk about some ofthose retargeting strategies in
the next podcast.
That may get you coming back.
Don't mean to lead you on, butmaybe I'll remember to come back
(38:50):
and do that.
And so once we come to that,then we go, okay, do we worry
about Facebook pages initially?
Do we worry about these otherthings?
Are we just trying to gainmomentum?
Right now it's proof of concepttime.
And we don't have to have thewhole thing figured out today in
order to run the campaign to getit.
(39:12):
Now, of course, you want aserious effort.
It doesn't mean that if we godown this road, that we're just
simply going to spin up someads, haphazardly throw it on a
landing page, it's not wellthought out, not think through
the emotional triggers, thevalue proposition, his SWAT
(39:35):
profile, strengths, weaknesses,things like that.
We're going to consider allthose things, but we're going to
do it very deliberately and morefrom a sniper rifle with a
limited number of bullets.
rather than just kind of throwit against the wall and pray
that something works becauseGod's given us a mind for a
reason.
(39:55):
You know, it's not just ahaphazard does not work in
today's world.
All right.
So let's kind of recap whatwe're going to be doing for this
particular client.
And I think that's going topossibly help some of you out
there who are trying to expandyour division.
So number one, he gets to makethe choice.
We can work with either one.
(40:16):
We can either have a micrositeor combine it into two.
I think there's more strength incombining everything into one
website.
I do think there are challengeswith getting people to the
section of the website they needto go to, but not in paid
advertising because we candirect them straight to the
landing page for storage.
So we can overcome that obstaclein the proof of concept phase of
(40:38):
the game.
meaning that we're going topoint them straight to the
storage pages when they go tothe website anyway.
Then what we're going to do ispiggyback on the credibility.
And then we're going to run paidads and we're going to target a
demographic that is not priceshopping, but they're more
concerned about accuracy andquality and they're more
(41:00):
concerned about differentaspects.
And we're going to fine tunethat campaign and the messaging
on the landing page in whichthey come to, meaning that we
want to make sure that we'remeeting the expectation and
we're giving them an easy opt inand an easy way out.
to engage with this business.
(41:22):
We're going to try differentmarkets, or not markets, but
rather different services,mudrooms, pantries, laundry
rooms, those kind of things.
We're leaning probably moretoward laundry rooms and
pantries because we'reStatistics show that women are
more concerned about those twoareas when shopping for homes,
(41:44):
that and the kitchen.
And so we want to target thoseareas which we think are going
to be more effective.
Probably won't lock down thedemographic to only females
initially.
But we may quickly move intothat arena based upon the
results.
Then what we're going to do isfind which one of those areas
are the hottest, which one ofthem leads to the most phone
(42:04):
calls, ultimately which oneslead to the most business, and
then we're going to focus inthat arena.
Because even if people are moreaffluent, they may be more apt
to want to buy– Custom cabinetsfor a mudroom, then say for
something very modest where theyreally don't care to spend a lot
(42:24):
of money in those areas.
Usually people that areaffluent, they have money, but
for a reason.
They take care of their money.
All the ones that I've knowntake really good care of what
they have, and they worked hardto get there.
So once that's done, basicallystep one, step two, paid ad
(42:45):
campaign, running it if he'sdetermined to have it out.
Then we basically don't run themto the landing page.
We run them to a separatewebsite.
As you can see, with thisinitial plan, it doesn't make a
lot of sense to have thisseparate website.
But if we do have it, then we'regoing to run paid ads to the
separate website, go with thesame strategy, and then we'll
(43:05):
probably feature those differentarenas a little bit more,
meaning muttering blah, blah,blah.
And then we're going tounderstand our keywords a little
bit better once we startconverting in a certain click.
And then we start to grow them.
Then we're going to startexploring, expand ending out,
maybe doing some social mediaposts, some remarketing out
(43:27):
there to bring people back intofocus.
And yeah, Uh, we may do a littlebit of, now I'm thinking about
it.
We may do a little bit of metamarketing initially, just for
some retargeting, just, justfor, uh, to see what happens
there.
And once we get all that stuffin place, then what we'll do is
grow the campaign.
Typically, once we get a clientover a three to six month window
(43:49):
with that proof of concept, theystart gaining traffic, they gain
confidence on it.
Then we'll start to look heavierinto search engine optimization,
which has its own can of wormsassociated with it.
And then we can give thecustomer confidence in the
keywords that we're choosingbecause by then we've done all
of our competitive research.
We've got actual real world dataas to what's bringing him the
(44:13):
most phone calls or leads.
And then he's going to have moreconfidence in order to invest in
that direction.
And then if he continues thatdirection because he wants to
grow more, then we can continueto do it.
But if he's already reached hiscapacity with paid ads, then why
go any further?
That's his capacity, and we'refulfilling everything he needs
in order to stay in business andhave plenty of business.
(44:35):
And so, yes, there are pointswhere it doesn't make sense for
a customer to have so muchbusiness they don't know what to
do with.
And so those are the concepts.
And then, of course, let'scircle back around to the sign
on the building.
Why should it be up there?
The term storage, even thoughthat's what it is, custom
storage, when you think of itand you drive by it, you're
(44:56):
probably thinking of like thosestorage facilities where you
rent the little building and youput all your stuff in it.
Well, that's not what he does.
And so the word storage isalready kind of within his
demographic is understood aslike those storage facilities.
little units that you put thingsin.
So what we'd want to do is wewant to give context if we use
(45:17):
the word storage by using theword like, you know, pantries or
what was the other one,mudrooms, whatever those things
are, give it proper context.
And so maybe initially the firstthing to do is to take it, not
worry about it if we don't haveto invest in it initially, or we
(45:37):
could take a stab at it and thentry to give it context and then
choose what we feel is the mostpopular keywords based upon the
geo area, based upon the datathat Google will show us, which
you can tell that could be alittle bit tricky.
We may have to redo those signs,uh, depending upon where the
data takes us in the long run.
(45:58):
So this will be the conversationand I'll let you know how it
goes.
Uh, once we have our followupand kind of break all that stuff
down in the mix and, um, Mypreparation is basically doing a
bunch of keyword research,competitive research, giving him
the pros and cons of each one ofthe directions, letting him make
a decision, understanding hisbudget, and then pushing
(46:21):
forward.
So these are the kind of thingsthat you should see when you're
working with someone inmarketing and advertising or web
design.
It should not be, let me pickyou out a template, let me spin
you up a website that's forstorage, and let's put whatever
you send me on that page, andlet me go grab some stock
(46:44):
photography, let me go to Canvaand build some images.
That is a very...
So if you're working withsomeone.
(47:08):
And they're building you an SEOcampaign.
They didn't do all the upfrontwork.
They're not worried about theemotional triggers, your market
position.
They're not properly looking atall these aspects.
They're not thinking abouteverything that goes into it.
Then they're leveraging you in away that's not the most
beneficial to your business.
(47:29):
And so you need to find someonewho thinks through these things
and can basically– for lack of abetter word, be your sounding
board, someone to debate thepros and cons and give you what
you need in order to make areally good decision for your
business so that you understandthe pros and the cons of the
decisions that you're making.
(47:49):
And then also say, okay, when dowe get onto the train?
When do we try it?
How long do we try it?
And if not, then when do weswitch directions?
Because even understanding prosThe proper timelines to properly
fine-tune and optimize thingsare a whole other set of subsets
that go into the decision-makingprocess.
(48:10):
So hopefully this helps you out.
Hopefully this gives you alittle idea into the insight of
how we think in marketing andadvertising at Integris.
So I'm going to work up, inconclusion, hopefully that did
help you out.
I want to wrap up here.
We're hitting about 48 minutes.
I want to thank you so much forlistening.
(48:30):
There have been some pretty goodpodcasts early on, and I do
recommend if you're picking upright here to go back and listen
to some of the previous ones.
I'm still trying to get myrhythm here, and I'm still
trying to understand how I'mgoing to take the Over the Bull
podcast.
I'm trying to find my voice.
(48:51):
So if you take, for example, RayCharles, you know, my
understanding of Ray Charles washe had to find his own unique
sound and it took him a littlewhile to do it.
Well, I'm trying to find myunique sound, but the content in
the previous podcast are goodbecause they do give you
insights and understanding inmaybe ways you've not looked at
(49:11):
marketing before.
And so, you know, as you'reriding your lawnmower or doing
other things or traveling frompoint A to point B, maybe a good
idea to kind of tune in and justpick up a few tips.
I know when I was takingPhotoshop courses back in the
90s and we'd spend five or sixhundred bucks to take one course
(49:33):
for a day or two.
And the instructor would say,well, if you learn one thing,
then it's paid for itself.
Well, you listen to one of ourpodcasts and you pick up one
good thing, it can make a bigdifference in your business.
And when you're talking about 4%to 6% conversions on things like
paid ads, if you can increaseyour conversions by a percentage
(49:56):
point, it can make a hugedifference to your company.
I'm also debating on bringing inphilosophical concepts and also
giving you a means where you cansubmit your ideas and questions
directly to the podcast.
So until we meet again, thankyou for hanging in there.
I really appreciate it.
Look forward to the next podcastand to your success.
(50:17):
Thanks again for listening toOver the Bull.
I'm Ken Carroll, your host.
SPEAKER_00 (50:21):
Thanks for tuning in to Over the Bull, brought to you
by Integris Design, afull-service design and
marketing agency out ofAsheville, North Carolina.
Until next time.
You're listening to Over the Bull, where we cut
through marketing noise.
Here's your host,
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Ken Carroll.
So you want to expand yourbusiness or you have a new idea,
but you don't know exactly howto go about it.
There are so many choices and somany options.
Oftentimes, trying to get thingsstarted is a lot different than
trying to keep momentum forsomething you already have.
If you're starting a newbusiness or you're trying to
(00:28):
grow in other areas, thisepisode of Over the Bull is for
you.
So a client of ours came intothe office and he works in
cabinets.
And he does a really good job ofcabinets, and he's been doing
it, gosh, for a long time.
And he's been a client of oursprobably for a little less than
10 years, probably.
(00:50):
And he wanted to expand hisbusiness into doing things like
closets and storage spaces.
Now, this particular client, hehas a large building.
outside of an interstate.
And on that building, he has thebig words, custom cabinets.
(01:11):
And from that traffic, he gets alot of business.
And he also gains business fromour Google business
optimization, our websiteoptimization, and not as much on
paid ads.
And so he wanted to expand intobeing able to offer custom
storage spaces for homes, youknow, like pantries and
(01:34):
bathrooms and closets andgarages and mudrooms and things
like that.
And so his whole objective withmeeting me this week was to kind
of talk about, well, what do Ido and how do I expand into it?
So he came with some ideas.
And so essentially, even thoughhe's well established, he's
trying to crack a new marketwithin the business that he's
(01:57):
already working in.
So those questions, one, how doI expand into this other
division digitally?
He's also bought another, notbought, but leased another area
of the building beside wherehe's at.
He wondered what kind of signageto put out that would capture
people's attention.
And then he wondered exactlywhat he should do.
(02:19):
So he came with like ideas oflike, do I have a separate
website or the same website?
Because the price points weredifferent for the two products.
Now, before we go deeper intothis, I want to kind of break
down a little bit about hiscurrent status prior to coming
into the office.
Number one, he has a websitethat does custom cabinets.
(02:44):
and that Custom Cabinets websiteis performing well for him.
He's got a Google Businessprofile that's also working well
for him as well.
He wanted to have a separatewebsite built for the storage
components or the storagefeatures because he didn't want
(03:04):
to muddy the water because theprice points for his cabinets
are a lot different than theprice points for storage.
And what he felt was that itwould be diluted if he were to
put something on his websitethat has that lower price point.
Then he has the words customcabinets huge on his warehouse.
(03:30):
And it catches a lot of people'sattention, and he likes the way
that that worked too.
So we had to come up with someideas about what to put on this
building years ago when he hadthe space.
And the idea was to put somemessages up there that were very
obvious as to what he did.
And so custom cabinets was alogical way to do that.
(03:54):
We also had just finishedrebranding everything when he
first came on with us.
And so we had the challenges ofa new domain name, new branding,
getting his Google businessprofile updated with the right
information, a lot of thingslike that, a lot of logistical
challenges.
And those can be challenges,especially when you're trying to
(04:15):
gain momentum for essentially anew website address.
So once we crossed all thosehurdles, this is where we're
kind of at as of today.
He's happy with the amount oftraffic that he's getting, and
he wants to kind of get the samemomentum for this new division.
Now, as I mentioned, the newdivision, it's a good market,
(04:37):
but the price point is not quitethe same as cabinets.
And the reason being is itdoesn't require the same amount
of energy, effort, resources,you know, all those other things
in order to produce it.
So it's a lucrative market if hecan get into it and he would do
a much better job than mostother people in his market.
(05:00):
So here we are.
How do we eat this elephant?
He's sitting down in my officewith me and wanting to know what
do we do to grow this newstorage end of the business.
Now, when he came down, as Imentioned, he had these ideas.
Should we do social?
Should we do paid ads?
(05:21):
Should we do organic searchengine optimization?
Should we continue to have aseparate website?
Should we combine those twowebsites?
Would that create confusion?
Just lots of questions.
So the first thing is if westand back and analyze exactly
what he's trying to do, thecabinets and the storage spaces
(05:47):
have a logical continuitybetween the two.
So the challenge is not whetheror not they would fit together
on one website.
The question is more about pricepoint.
You know, would that possiblydilute one product?
Or if they saw the prices of thecabinets and everything with
(06:09):
that, would they think that hisstorage spaces were also going
to be too pricey compared to hiscompetitors?
Then, of course, he's also gotthe logistics of the can
solutions of different kind ofkits that you can buy for those
kind of spaces versus what heoffers.
(06:30):
And then he's got an idea of thecompetitors that he's looking at
and what they offer.
And so breaking all this downisn't as simple as just dropping
a couple pages on his websitefor storage spaces.
There is actually a lot thatgoes into it, and a lot of his
comments have a lot ofcredibility.
(06:53):
Now, the first thing is to thinkabout, well, this guy's in
tuned, right?
You know, he's not just sayingadd a couple pages to my
website.
He's thinking about hisdemographic.
He's thinking about how theywould shop for these two
different products in twodifferent ways.
And it's very reasonable tothink like that.
(07:14):
And so breaking it down into twowebsites historically made
sense.
Now, It also was in tuned withhow he was selling and marketing
product.
He wasn't trying to sell thestorage directly on the
internet, um, through paidadvertising or things like that.
He was going to use it more asa, um, kind of like an accent
(07:39):
offering that he would dothrough his sales effort and
things like that.
He wasn't really looking at adeliberate, intentional, kind of
what we would call a primary,um, sales.
Cause you know, a lot of timesin sales, you have things where
you bring people in on oneoffering, but then you want to
sell them on other offeringsonce they come into your
(08:01):
business.
And so his primary effort wascabinets and then storage was a
secondary effort.
And it was his strategy.
And honestly, he just kind ofcame to us and asked us to put
it together because he was goingto use it and kind of explore
and dabble a little bit in thestorage arena.
But here he is.
(08:21):
He's had success at it, and nowhe wants to get more deliberate
with the effort, and he'sbringing these questions to the
table.
Now, there's another aspect tothis client that I have to
consider, and that is hisinvestment in terms of resources
for actual advertising.
It's how much business does heneed in all actuality.
(08:46):
It's the kind of market positionthat he has versus the
do-it-yourself kits and thingslike that that's out there
within the market.
And it's also looking at wherehis level of comfort is going to
be in all of this, because I'veworked with him for some time.
(09:06):
I know that he doesn't want toput a lot of money in
advertising dollars, but he'sopen to the concept of it.
And he's done some minorimprovements.
work years and years ago, but itwasn't enough of a budget to
really make a dent in what he'strying to accomplish.
So let's talk about that for asecond.
(09:29):
When you're looking at sellingthings on the internet, there is
a concept of, well, how longdoes it take someone to be ready
to make a decision from thefirst time they engage with your
company?
Now, This is usually calledsomething like the buyer's
journey or the customer journey.
(09:51):
And there's a lot of factorsthat go into it, such as, you
know, is it an impulse purchase?
So we have a lot of luck in thetourism industry selling low
price point tickets.
But when it becomes a higherprice point ticket, the
customer's decision is morecomplex because it requires more
(10:12):
of an investment.
There's more of a thoughtprocess involved in that.
And so when you look at what hewas trying to do with paid ads,
the customer journey was morelengthy.
You know, just think of it likethis.
You're looking for T-shirts.
You know, you're going to spend$10 or$20 on shirts.
(10:33):
Well, that's a pretty easydecision.
But if you're looking to buy acar, well, that decision is more
complicated.
And then if you combine thatwith the buying cycle, the sell
cycle, or the...
the ecosystem, which is anotherterm for it.
People, when they approach yourwebsite, based upon the way that
(10:54):
you engage them on the internet,they may have already done a lot
of homework and they may becloser to making that purchase
decision.
However, if they've never heardof you before or they need to
investigate you as a companyversus other companies, then
that can also require a littlebit more time to engage with
(11:15):
them and gain their trust.
And so that leads to, well, howdo we first engage someone who
may be ready to purchasecabinets but may not trust a new
company they've never heard ofbefore?
You know, we need low commitmentofferings.
We need ways to help customersfeel more comfortable to make
(11:37):
that first layer of engagement.
Now, when you're buying tens ofthousands of dollars of cabinets
for a home and there aredifferent choices out there,
then of course to give someonethat level of comfort is more
complex than telling someonethat they can buy a t-shirt.
(11:57):
And the worst thing that happensis it doesn't fit and you send
it back or lose 20 bucks orsomething.
Just not that big of a deal.
So if we circle back around tothe concept of him wanting to
not merge his custom cabinetswith the custom storage
elements, you can quickly seewhy that that could also create
(12:20):
layers of confusion or instantpoints of confusion.
this guy is going to be tooexpensive compared to other
people or other options, or maynot be the right option in this
case.
So as you can see, as you breakit down, it's really not just as
simple as saying, I'm going toadd storage offerings on the
(12:44):
cabinet website.
And essentially, This is a newbusiness.
Even though he's got a websiteand he's got all the pieces in
place, he's got a ton ofexperience, he sells cabinets,
it's a natural extension, butthe market is completely
different.
So in essence, this division islike spinning up a new business,
(13:05):
even though it's already anestablished company.
So what do we do?
How do we help this customer outand how do we help them turn the
corner was a big question.
And as you can see, there's alot of inroads and outroads when
it comes to this stuff.
And there isn't necessarily abad decision.
(13:26):
The question is, is where do westart?
How do we test it?
And what makes the most sensefor the budget and what he's
trying to accomplish that meanseverything from his marketing
budget to his productioncapacity to the competitors that
are out there?
giving him a strategic advantagebased upon what he offers, and
(13:48):
kind of culminating all thisinto something that's tenable,
something that he's going tolike, and something that does
give him the maximum opportunityto succeed.
Because from a marketingstandpoint, here's the
challenge.
You know, you want customers tostart to see that the benefit of
(14:09):
what's going on because you wantto make them have confidence in
what you're offering.
And so there is this kind oflike ramp up time.
No matter what you do, there's aramp up time.
So one of the common things inmarketing is people will tell
you, you know, that they can docertain things in certain
timelines or things like that.
And it's just simply not true.
(14:30):
It's just simply not true thatyou could spin up his campaign
and then just automaticallystart bringing in new business
for him simply because he'salready established and has
credibility.
Now, we may be able to add theoffering and trickle in some
business from that.
And again, sometimes we do hitthe home run.
(14:52):
But in this case, I'm notfeeling that that home run is
going to happen right out thegate.
So question number one is, well,what should he do as far as
marketing?
Here we are.
We're at the crossroads.
Now, the one thing that I alsoneed to consider is his
understanding of the market.
(15:12):
So my inclination is to combineboth products on one website and
kind of deal with the hurdle ofthe price structure.
Because his cabinets, they gointo nice homes.
He doesn't build these littlestandard kits that you buy
online.
I mean, he can build thesecabinets to the inch.
(15:33):
He measures every single place.
Whenever I go out with him anddo photo shoots, he's looking at
each cabinet as far as like howthe doors line up.
He's looking at the hinges.
He's looking at where they'repositioned.
He's looking at every singleelement, even the wood grain
this guy pays attention to.
So his target audience, evenwhen it comes to storage, you
(15:58):
know, mudrooms, pantries,bathrooms, things like that,
they're also going to be of thecaliber where they're going to
want something that is a littlenicer than the average bear
gets, and they can afford to payfor that as well.
which to me is a signal thatmaybe this price point is not
(16:19):
quite as big of a deal as maybehe thinks it is in his market.
However, I do have to respecthis understanding within his
market.
So you see there's a trick here.
There's this push-pull, and ifmy client did not come in and
sit down with me and talk to meabout this, then I would not
have inserted that into theequation.
(16:41):
Now, after carefully weighing itand looking at his competition
that does offer the cheapersolutions, I'm going to give him
the option of two paths.
So for me, I don't think thatthe price point is that big of a
deal, especially given that heneeds to carve out a niche
(17:03):
within his market, which meansthat he needs to be probably the
more accurate guy.
Everything that he's done isbased on accuracy, high quality,
great workmanship.
things like that.
And so my recommendation islet's go ahead and combine the
two and let's carve out thatniche, which will give us a few
(17:25):
benefits.
Benefit number one is we haveonly one website to manage,
which also means we only haveone website to worry about its
reputation and its credibility.
And we can piggyback off thecredibility of what else he
does.
And so by doing that, we're kindof gaining momentum right out of
(17:47):
the gate.
Now, again, I'm not that worriedabout the price point based upon
what I've seen within the marketand where he's at.
Now, once we...
do that and we build that out,then what we'll do is probably
take the website that we havebuilt that he was using as just
(18:09):
like a secondary revenue streamfor his business.
And we will likely take that anddo a 301 redirect back to that
main page of storage on hiscurrent website.
So what that means is a 301 is afancy way to say you take, like,
(18:30):
say, for example, mydomain.com,and then you've got
mydomain2.com.
What you would do is you'd pointmydomain2.com to mydomain.com
slash storage.
And that way, that domain willtake people right into that one
(18:50):
section.
And that's just to kind ofcapture any momentum, any kind
of cards or anything that he'shanded out using that website
address so he doesn't lose thatin the process.
And a domain, it's only going tocost about$20 a year.
And so it's not really a biginvestment to go ahead and do
it, even if it gains minimaltraction from what we're trying
(19:12):
to do.
Now, I'm also going to give himoption number two.
Because you've got to thinkabout, I've got to respect him
and where he's at because heknows his market more than me.
Yeah, I've been around since theearly 90s doing marketing and
different things within thespectrum, but I'm not living day
in and day out in his business.
(19:33):
And so the other option is webreak out to site number two.
Now, the downside is...
Do we piggyback back into thecabinet business?
Does that look kind of squirrelyto do that as a separate
website?
Does it make sense to do that?
The downside is it's going totake more effort to manage two
(19:55):
websites.
It's going to take more effortto build credibility for two
websites.
Also manage all the othernuances as well.
What do you do when it comes toGoogle business?
Do you build another profile?
Do you not build anotherprofile?
Would it be considered aseparate entity as far as how he
structures it?
(20:15):
Is he going to start a new DBAthat he would put this under or
to be his other?
Because there are certainregulations with Google business
when you go in and you startbuilding all this stuff out.
It's not just simply going intoGoogle business and just
spinning up another free profilepage.
There's a lot more that goesinto the logistics of it.
(20:38):
And if you don't do itcorrectly, those listings can
get suspended because Googledoes have certain rules.
Like, for example, one of theclassic ones are people who try
to put keyword phrases thatrelate to their business in the
name of their business in theirGoogle profile.
For example, if I put IntegrisDesign Web Design, I'm putting a
(21:00):
keyword that's not the name ofmy company as the title of my
company.
And I have actually seenmarketing people go in and make
this recommendation because theysay that it gains momentum.
Some will even go as far as tosay, spin up a DB And make sure
you put your keyword actually init so that you can legally get
away with it.
But here's the deal.
(21:20):
If Google doesn't like it andthey suspend it, they're going
to suspend it.
And I've seen those thingshappen a lot with one particular
company we work with that athird party.
Basically, it's a franchise andthe franchisees were following
some bad advice.
And so we've had to kind of goback in and bring that back in.
(21:42):
So as you can see, it gets alittle complicated.
But if we do that, then what wewould do is spin up a separate
website market to that secondwebsite.
Now, the pro, if we're going topull out the pros, is that
people who are looking probablyfor storage units, like for
mudrooms and all that, theyprobably don't want to go
through the whole cabinetsection.
(22:03):
So the cabinet section could bea distraction rather than
something that would help themmake a decision on whether or
not to use HandMark considerhim, meaning that, you know, if
his primary efforts or effortsare cabinets and then he then
they see this little thing onthe side, then they kind of have
(22:24):
to weed through the cabinetsection to find the other
section.
Now, at first blush, you wouldthink, well, that's really not
that big of a deal.
Well, it could be a big deal.
And the reason being is whensomeone comes to your website,
you literally have 7 to 10seconds to catch their
attention.
(22:45):
So the question is how in thefirst 7 to 10 seconds do we get
someone's attention if we'reshowing a bunch of really
high-end cabinets and we'retrying to convey the idea that
we do storage for closets, whichare kind of different.
And so by having a separatewebsite, it can be nothing but
the storage.
(23:06):
You know, we can go straightinto pantries and bathrooms and
things like that.
Well, on the cabinet's website,we have to kind of, if we
combine the two, we're going tohave to find a way to disperse
those two elements and make itmake a lot of sense.
So from a marketing perspective,both could work.
(23:26):
Different amounts of work wouldgo into each one of them.
And being able to give bothoptions to the client and let
them choose, and then being ableto see the logistical challenges
of one of the options versus theother options will be one of the
things in which he will get tomake that decision.
(23:48):
Now, my role is...
to look at what he suggests,take his input in and then
cultivate a plan around hisdecision.
And so if he comes back andsays, yep, let's go ahead and
combine those two sites togetherinto one, then I can see the
search engine optimizationbenefits.
(24:09):
I can see how having additionalcontent is going to help.
I can see how we could have amuch more robust website for the
one versus having two kind ofmicro websites where if we do
those two micro websites, thenwe have to clearly convey to the
client that, From an organicperspective, we're kind of
(24:31):
rebooting the process, whichthen takes us to the next point.
And that is, do we worry aboutsearch engine optimization right
now?
And to what degree do we worryabout it?
You see, these are blasphemousdecisions, you know, to some
people.
Well, of course, you've got towork on search engine
(24:51):
optimization.
And of course, you've got tobuild that into the plan.
Well, no, that's not necessarilytrue.
You see, from a businessstandpoint, your goal is to not
follow a standard process thatmakes you feel good or satisfies
some itch in marketing anddesign.
(25:11):
The goal is pretty simple.
The goal is to drive people thatare more likely interested to
buy your products so that youhave an opportunity to sell them
on those products.
It's pretty much that easy.
Now, if you can stand on theside of the road and fulfill
your coffers and have enoughproduction, holding a sign up on
(25:33):
the side of the road andbringing people in versus
spending 20 times as much doingpaid advertising on the
Internet, then you probably wantto hire that guy to stand on the
side of the road and hold a signup and dance, right?
So the same thing is true withthe Internet.
And so when we break these twosides down, we could decide to
(25:56):
go with the paid ad strategy andnot even worry about the organic
implications.
Now, of course, there's alwaysthings that you want to do as
best practices for search engineoptimization.
There are certain sitestructures and considerations
that go into it.
And of course, yes, yes, yes,there's a good argument for
(26:16):
building up an SEO planlong-term.
100%, there's a great argumentfor content marketing.
100%, there's a great argumentfor social media posting.
100%, there's a great argumentfor paid advertising.
100%, there's a milliondifferent ways to dive into this
(26:37):
and build a strategy.
Now, the question is not...
Should you do all of them or,you know, fall for whatever
argument you have?
Because in marketing, you alsohave to remember that you got
the marketer too, right?
And so if the marketing personhas the capability to offer
(26:58):
social media posting, they'regoing to give you all the
reasons that you should be usingsocial media for this marketing
strategy, right?
Just like if you're specializingin paid ads with Google, well,
of course, everything should bepaid ads.
If you're a search engineoptimization guy, well, of
course, search engineoptimization should be what you
(27:20):
should concentrate on.
But the reality is, no.
The reality is that's not true.
The reality is you are trying tosell a product or a service to
people and you want to get tothem in the most effective way
possible within a budget thatyour business can manage.
Now for small businesses andstartups, there is a balance.
(27:41):
There is no unlimited budget.
There is no unlimited let's waitfor return on investment.
There is no money generated frombest practices with putting in
certain tags on a website.
Now, of course, there are goodpractices and certain ones
should be followed.
But if you get lost in the weedsof trying to chase all these
(28:03):
little details, it's going tobecome a distraction for your
business.
It's not going to be optimizedin the right way.
And frankly, it's not going towork.
And you're probably going to runout of money before you get to
see the fruits of it or justgive up on it.
I mean, that's just the realityof business.
So if we circle back around,then the idea is, okay, if we go
(28:24):
with option number two and webuild out this microsite, then
we're probably going to go intothe world of paid advertising.
Now, of course, we have to thinkabout the value proposition and
we've got to think about thoseemotional triggers that we
talked about in the last podcastto make sure we have the right
(28:44):
call to action.
But there are some benefits torunning paid ads initially.
Number one, it's more instantgratification.
Search engine optimization isnot overnight.
There's not magic to it.
It requires work because Googlewants the most credible websites
to pop up in the search resultsbecause that makes their search
(29:04):
engines more valuable to theaverage person.
And so you've got to buildcredibility up, and there are
ways to do that over a period oftime.
Conversely, why you do paid adsis you get this kind of ability
to promote and advertise withinyour market and you get to do it
fairly instantly.
Now, when I say instantly, whatI mean is that you can launch
(29:27):
the ads, you know, pretty muchas pretty quick.
I mean, we can launch themwithin a day.
But the idea is once you launchthem, then you also need to
track their results.
You need to modify them, changethem.
And now you've got to giveGoogle the opportunity to kind
of understand what you're tryingto achieve through those ads and
give it time to work throughthat and build up that, for lack
(29:51):
of a better word, understandingof meaningful actions for those
ads, which means you've got toinvest in paid ads and the time
it takes in order to figurethose things out.
Because even within Google,you've got, gosh, I don't know
how many ways, probably eightdifferent ways that you can
initially set up ads.
(30:12):
And then there are subsetswithin each one of those that
can impact what you're doing.
But if we have the separatewebsite concept, then we're
probably going to lean moreheavily on paid advertising.
So then we have the nextquestion, the sales funnel.
Because you can do paidadvertising in Meta.
(30:34):
You can do paid advertising onGoogle.
You can do paid advertising onMeta and Google.
You could do paid advertising onLinkedIn.
There's lots of different placesthat you can do paid
advertising, even onpublications that are real
popular in storage or whatever.
You could even do advertisingwithin that spectrum as well.
(30:54):
So you see, it gets more andmore complicated as you go.
But we need to simplify itbecause we're going to have a
very simple budget to work withand a very simple premise, and
we're trying to do what we wouldcall a proof of concept.
So to come back around on it,regardless of which way that he
takes...
We're probably going to leanheavily on paid advertising
(31:17):
initially.
And then what we're going to doif he does option number one is
we're going to put in a lot moreoptimization factors into that
product.
We're going to recommend that healso does a lot more when it
comes to content marketing.
We're going to piggyback off ofthe effort that he's already got
(31:38):
in cabinets, and we're going togo after a more exclusive market
when it comes to People who arelooking for storage solutions,
you know, people who care aboutthings that fit in nice tight
spaces.
Versus someone who is going touse– back in drafting in high
school, we would call it themake-it-fit method.
(31:58):
The reason we called it that wasbecause if you got close enough,
you were graded on a curve.
If you could follow directionsto kind of make it look somewhat
like it, he would– theinstructor in the mechanical
engineering or drafting class,he would grade on a curve based
upon how close you got it.
So we had this thing called themake-it-fit method.
(32:20):
And so people who want thingsexact.
Now, so paid ads areinteresting.
Uh, because they can do a lot ofthings for him regardless of
which path that he takes.
Now, one gives us a little morestrength to start working on
organic placement.
Um, we've already got ourcredibility kind of stacked up a
(32:41):
little bit.
We've already got our, ourprofile situated.
We've already optimized the, uh,what we would call the NAP
score, uh, name, address, phonenumber for his Google business.
Uh, we've already done thosethings.
Um, but paid advertising canwork either way.
Uh, Now, what's great about paidadvertising is And by the way,
(33:01):
I've won awards on search engineoptimization.
Big believer in search engineoptimization.
Matter of fact, I do know thatit still converts at a very high
rate.
For those of you wondering,should you do paid or organic?
There are statistics out thereto show that up to 60% of people
make decisions in the sponsoredor paid area versus the organic
(33:25):
area.
So ultimately, best idea, bestworld ever.
What should you do?
The answer is yes, you should bein both places.
But if you have to choose basedupon logistical factors, like in
this one, paid ads make a lot ofsense.
Now, the reason they also makesense is we can perform things
like keyword research to findthe best keywords, which, by the
(33:48):
way, if you ever do a searchengine optimization campaign,
you should have a set ofresearch performed in your
specific area about keywordvolumes before the first
optimization is done andunderstand exactly what's going
on.
And you should also have acompetitive approach.
(34:09):
research perform too to see whatyour competitors are targeting
and what's most successful forthem.
All that can be found before youdo the first search engine
optimization.
If someone's jumping into it andsaying they're optimizing your
website and they didn't give youthe data, it's kind of like you
preparing to go on vacation andnot knowing if you're going to
go skiing or go to the beach.
(34:30):
It makes absolutely no sense notto have a bearing on what you're
trying to get your websiteranked for on the Quick tip, if
someone's selling you a searchengine optimization campaign,
and at the very least they didnot give you a keyword analysis
based upon your service area,not based in the United States,
(34:52):
based in your service area, thenit's going to have minimal
results because you don't knowwhat you're trying to hit
anyway.
And if you don't have acompetitive research, to me that
just seems...
kind of outrageous because yourcompetitors, why would you not
want to use that data,especially knowing that search
(35:13):
engine optimization is one ofthese deals that's kind of, it's
a lengthy thing.
It's not like you're just goingdown to the store to grab a
drink.
You're actually taking a longtrip with search engine
optimization over a period oftime.
And you want to make sure thatthe effort that you're doing are
for searches, which are whatkeywords are, means what you
(35:36):
type in to Google that thosewords are the most effective
keywords and why would you notspend a little bit more money to
understand your competitorsbefore going into such an
endeavor.
But if we jump back to the paidadvertising portion of this,
then we can look at a couple ofother things that are really
(35:56):
interesting too.
We can actually quantify thosekeywords in a very unique way
before we do the first bit ofSEO.
What I mean by that is if wetake, say, for example, we
target mudrooms, pantries,garages, closets, laundry rooms,
whatever may have you.
(36:17):
And then we go back and we putthose things into a paid ad
campaign, even with data that weget directly from Google based
on the geo and everything likethat.
Then we can actually run thosekeywords and we can find which
ones are the most effective forhis business and positioning.
Then we can evaluate it and say,okay, is it something we're
(36:40):
doing wrong on why we're notconverting better in other
arenas?
Or is that naturally stronger inhis target geographic areas?
You see, and then once weunderstand those data points,
Then what we could do is go backand retroactively start making
some search engine optimizationdecisions based upon real-world
(37:03):
data, based upon how his websiteis engaged with by potential
customers.
So in other words, we quantifythe keywords before jumping into
search engine optimization.
And so there's a benefit torunning paid ads.
Now, the next question is,should we run them on...
(37:24):
Facebook or Meta as well?
Or should we just run them onGoogle initially?
And then how does that work?
Because part of what we want todo is we want people to be
exposed to the brand and wantpeople to click through and see
it.
But then after they do a littlebit of homework, we don't want
them to forget him.
(37:44):
And so there's a couple ofdifferent ways to do that.
You can do retargeting campaignsin Google where you can stay in
front of those people.
Or within Meta, you could try toalso broadcast to similar people
in places, blah, blah, blah,within Meta's sphere too.
(38:05):
And if you keep in mind thatGoogle is for direct searches
and Meta is more for targetinggroups and audiences in a
different way, and knowing thatwe have a limited budget and
knowing what this market is,we're going to probably start
with paid advertising on Google.
(38:26):
And then what we're going to dois see if we can start to gain
momentum and conversions andinterest in that arena through
initial marketing and someretargeting strategies, which
maybe I'll talk about some ofthose retargeting strategies in
the next podcast.
That may get you coming back.
Don't mean to lead you on, butmaybe I'll remember to come back
(38:50):
and do that.
And so once we come to that,then we go, okay, do we worry
about Facebook pages initially?
Do we worry about these otherthings?
Are we just trying to gainmomentum?
Right now it's proof of concepttime.
And we don't have to have thewhole thing figured out today in
order to run the campaign to getit.
(39:12):
Now, of course, you want aserious effort.
It doesn't mean that if we godown this road, that we're just
simply going to spin up someads, haphazardly throw it on a
landing page, it's not wellthought out, not think through
the emotional triggers, thevalue proposition, his SWAT
(39:35):
profile, strengths, weaknesses,things like that.
We're going to consider allthose things, but we're going to
do it very deliberately and morefrom a sniper rifle with a
limited number of bullets.
rather than just kind of throwit against the wall and pray
that something works becauseGod's given us a mind for a
reason.
(39:55):
You know, it's not just ahaphazard does not work in
today's world.
All right.
So let's kind of recap whatwe're going to be doing for this
particular client.
And I think that's going topossibly help some of you out
there who are trying to expandyour division.
So number one, he gets to makethe choice.
We can work with either one.
(40:16):
We can either have a micrositeor combine it into two.
I think there's more strength incombining everything into one
website.
I do think there are challengeswith getting people to the
section of the website they needto go to, but not in paid
advertising because we candirect them straight to the
landing page for storage.
So we can overcome that obstaclein the proof of concept phase of
(40:38):
the game.
meaning that we're going topoint them straight to the
storage pages when they go tothe website anyway.
Then what we're going to do ispiggyback on the credibility.
And then we're going to run paidads and we're going to target a
demographic that is not priceshopping, but they're more
concerned about accuracy andquality and they're more
(41:00):
concerned about differentaspects.
And we're going to fine tunethat campaign and the messaging
on the landing page in whichthey come to, meaning that we
want to make sure that we'remeeting the expectation and
we're giving them an easy opt inand an easy way out.
to engage with this business.
(41:22):
We're going to try differentmarkets, or not markets, but
rather different services,mudrooms, pantries, laundry
rooms, those kind of things.
We're leaning probably moretoward laundry rooms and
pantries because we'reStatistics show that women are
more concerned about those twoareas when shopping for homes,
(41:44):
that and the kitchen.
And so we want to target thoseareas which we think are going
to be more effective.
Probably won't lock down thedemographic to only females
initially.
But we may quickly move intothat arena based upon the
results.
Then what we're going to do isfind which one of those areas
are the hottest, which one ofthem leads to the most phone
(42:04):
calls, ultimately which oneslead to the most business, and
then we're going to focus inthat arena.
Because even if people are moreaffluent, they may be more apt
to want to buy– Custom cabinetsfor a mudroom, then say for
something very modest where theyreally don't care to spend a lot
(42:24):
of money in those areas.
Usually people that areaffluent, they have money, but
for a reason.
They take care of their money.
All the ones that I've knowntake really good care of what
they have, and they worked hardto get there.
So once that's done, basicallystep one, step two, paid ad
(42:45):
campaign, running it if he'sdetermined to have it out.
Then we basically don't run themto the landing page.
We run them to a separatewebsite.
As you can see, with thisinitial plan, it doesn't make a
lot of sense to have thisseparate website.
But if we do have it, then we'regoing to run paid ads to the
separate website, go with thesame strategy, and then we'll
(43:05):
probably feature those differentarenas a little bit more,
meaning muttering blah, blah,blah.
And then we're going tounderstand our keywords a little
bit better once we startconverting in a certain click.
And then we start to grow them.
Then we're going to startexploring, expand ending out,
maybe doing some social mediaposts, some remarketing out
(43:27):
there to bring people back intofocus.
And yeah, Uh, we may do a littlebit of, now I'm thinking about
it.
We may do a little bit of metamarketing initially, just for
some retargeting, just, justfor, uh, to see what happens
there.
And once we get all that stuffin place, then what we'll do is
grow the campaign.
Typically, once we get a clientover a three to six month window
(43:49):
with that proof of concept, theystart gaining traffic, they gain
confidence on it.
Then we'll start to look heavierinto search engine optimization,
which has its own can of wormsassociated with it.
And then we can give thecustomer confidence in the
keywords that we're choosingbecause by then we've done all
of our competitive research.
We've got actual real world dataas to what's bringing him the
(44:13):
most phone calls or leads.
And then he's going to have moreconfidence in order to invest in
that direction.
And then if he continues thatdirection because he wants to
grow more, then we can continueto do it.
But if he's already reached hiscapacity with paid ads, then why
go any further?
That's his capacity, and we'refulfilling everything he needs
in order to stay in business andhave plenty of business.
(44:35):
And so, yes, there are pointswhere it doesn't make sense for
a customer to have so muchbusiness they don't know what to
do with.
And so those are the concepts.
And then, of course, let'scircle back around to the sign
on the building.
Why should it be up there?
The term storage, even thoughthat's what it is, custom
storage, when you think of itand you drive by it, you're
(44:56):
probably thinking of like thosestorage facilities where you
rent the little building and youput all your stuff in it.
Well, that's not what he does.
And so the word storage isalready kind of within his
demographic is understood aslike those storage facilities.
little units that you put thingsin.
So what we'd want to do is wewant to give context if we use
(45:17):
the word storage by using theword like, you know, pantries or
what was the other one,mudrooms, whatever those things
are, give it proper context.
And so maybe initially the firstthing to do is to take it, not
worry about it if we don't haveto invest in it initially, or we
(45:37):
could take a stab at it and thentry to give it context and then
choose what we feel is the mostpopular keywords based upon the
geo area, based upon the datathat Google will show us, which
you can tell that could be alittle bit tricky.
We may have to redo those signs,uh, depending upon where the
data takes us in the long run.
(45:58):
So this will be the conversationand I'll let you know how it
goes.
Uh, once we have our followupand kind of break all that stuff
down in the mix and, um, Mypreparation is basically doing a
bunch of keyword research,competitive research, giving him
the pros and cons of each one ofthe directions, letting him make
a decision, understanding hisbudget, and then pushing
(46:21):
forward.
So these are the kind of thingsthat you should see when you're
working with someone inmarketing and advertising or web
design.
It should not be, let me pickyou out a template, let me spin
you up a website that's forstorage, and let's put whatever
you send me on that page, andlet me go grab some stock
(46:44):
photography, let me go to Canvaand build some images.
That is a very...
So if you're working withsomeone.
(47:08):
And they're building you an SEOcampaign.
They didn't do all the upfrontwork.
They're not worried about theemotional triggers, your market
position.
They're not properly looking atall these aspects.
They're not thinking abouteverything that goes into it.
Then they're leveraging you in away that's not the most
beneficial to your business.
(47:29):
And so you need to find someonewho thinks through these things
and can basically– for lack of abetter word, be your sounding
board, someone to debate thepros and cons and give you what
you need in order to make areally good decision for your
business so that you understandthe pros and the cons of the
decisions that you're making.
(47:49):
And then also say, okay, when dowe get onto the train?
When do we try it?
How long do we try it?
And if not, then when do weswitch directions?
Because even understanding prosThe proper timelines to properly
fine-tune and optimize thingsare a whole other set of subsets
that go into the decision-makingprocess.
(48:10):
So hopefully this helps you out.
Hopefully this gives you alittle idea into the insight of
how we think in marketing andadvertising at Integris.
So I'm going to work up, inconclusion, hopefully that did
help you out.
I want to wrap up here.
We're hitting about 48 minutes.
I want to thank you so much forlistening.
(48:30):
There have been some pretty goodpodcasts early on, and I do
recommend if you're picking upright here to go back and listen
to some of the previous ones.
I'm still trying to get myrhythm here, and I'm still
trying to understand how I'mgoing to take the Over the Bull
podcast.
I'm trying to find my voice.
(48:51):
So if you take, for example, RayCharles, you know, my
understanding of Ray Charles washe had to find his own unique
sound and it took him a littlewhile to do it.
Well, I'm trying to find myunique sound, but the content in
the previous podcast are goodbecause they do give you
insights and understanding inmaybe ways you've not looked at
(49:11):
marketing before.
And so, you know, as you'reriding your lawnmower or doing
other things or traveling frompoint A to point B, maybe a good
idea to kind of tune in and justpick up a few tips.
I know when I was takingPhotoshop courses back in the
90s and we'd spend five or sixhundred bucks to take one course
(49:33):
for a day or two.
And the instructor would say,well, if you learn one thing,
then it's paid for itself.
Well, you listen to one of ourpodcasts and you pick up one
good thing, it can make a bigdifference in your business.
And when you're talking about 4%to 6% conversions on things like
paid ads, if you can increaseyour conversions by a percentage
(49:56):
point, it can make a hugedifference to your company.
I'm also debating on bringing inphilosophical concepts and also
giving you a means where you cansubmit your ideas and questions
directly to the podcast.
So until we meet again, thankyou for hanging in there.
I really appreciate it.
Look forward to the next podcastand to your success.
(50:17):
Thanks again for listening toOver the Bull.
I'm Ken Carroll, your host.
SPEAKER_00 (50:21):
Thanks for tuning in to Over the Bull, brought to you
by Integris Design, afull-service design and
marketing agency out ofAsheville, North Carolina.
Until next time.
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