Is College Required for a Successful Career? feat. Keith Makes Games | Ep. 6

On this weeks episode of Overscoped, the guys are joined by a special guest, Keith Makes Games! Where we talk about education and if it is required to be a successful game developer.

We are joined by:

https://www.youtube.com/@KeithMakesGames

https://www.youtube.com/@mz_eth

https://www.youtube.com/@MaxyDev

https://www.youtube.com/@kobedev

https://www.youtube.com/@VerasStudios

Patreon: patreon.com/Overscoped

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Three years after I got my degree, AI started taking over, so, you know, who knows what's going to happen with my, uh, with my, uh,

(00:06):
um, game arts degree.
But college sort of sets you up to, like, work on stuff that you don't really want to?
Do you ever think about going back to college?
No.
The problem with Game Dev is game technology, uh, it, it upgrades so fast, it progresses so quickly, that curriculums can't keep up.
We weren't using modern versions of any of the tools.
I remember having fights with my teachers, and I would give her resources, and they'll just say I'm wrong.

(00:29):
Do you think that going to college is worth building those connections?
He's gonna say no. Why even ask?
Can we hate college?
I met the dumbest people going to college.
Oh, that's true. I have two. Wait, oh my god, yeah.
Now that you mention that, I took art classes, and you see people that are, like, autopiloting art classes, like, they just start really trying that hard,
and they're just doing it to get the grade, like, to get a good grade, and the whole time, I'm thinking, like, your portfolio's gonna be so bad, like,

(00:52):
they're not gonna get anything out of this, like, why are you doing this?
So, guys, I'm ready to start it.
What's up, guys? Welcome to the Overscope podcast.
My name is MZ-F.
Join me today is Henry Verrasudius on YouTube.
Hello.
Maxi, MaxiDev on YouTube.
Hello.
And Kobe, KobeDev on YouTube.
What's up?
But all those guys are really fucking boring, cause we are not going to be doing this.

(01:15):
We are not going to be doing this.
We are not going to be doing this.
We are not going to be doing this.
We just warm up and hang out with серah.
So, it's just going to be going, like, oh, I'm done.
And then, just rigorously doing it.
So, it's perfectly fine.

(01:37):
Ah, yes, no video games.
Where my mom used to win and then I was like, wow, here's Malik.
And then I'd really get on YouTube.
What's up?
But all those guys are really fucking boring.
in about my eighth year of existence,
I decided I wanted to try to make levels
for Unreal Tournament, which,

(02:02):
it's a very old game that a lot of people
have probably never heard of,
but that's actually what Unreal Engine was built off of,
was Unreal Tournament in the Unreal series.
Kaya Crazy, am I right?
Wow.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, now it's all about Fortnite, you know?
It's the Fortnite engine.
But yeah, so I started working on Unreal Maps,
and so I started using Unreal, the Editor One,

(02:26):
and then just kind of just kept going up
with the different iterations.
Since you were eight years old.
Damn, you're an OG, Unreal Engine.
Yeah, I'm like, I'm an OG in the Unreal space,
but I was joining EpicCon back when I was 10 years old.
I met Tim Sweeney with my hands, I didn't do that.

(02:47):
All right, these are all fake stories.
Yeah, no.
No, I moved on from Unreal to the best game engine,
Little Big Planet.
And then that worked.
I did that too.
I love doing that, yeah.
Did you like those games growing up
where you can create stuff, Little Big Planet,
and nowadays you have Mario Maker and stuff, but I always
love that.
Yeah, I'd say that Little Big Planet, Roblox,

(03:10):
and Minecraft were the ones that really got me
into the creative sphere.
Yeah.
I remember I would do those,
and then my dad was like, oh my God,
you should actually try making a real video game
of one of my other dad.
That's what college is for.
And then I actually started making video games
since not playing those games.
Yeah, I find it's really hard to play Minecraft,

(03:32):
because it uses all my creative juices,
and then I don't have it for work on stuff.
You know what I mean?
It's like too easy to get sucked in,
and I'm like, no, I'm actually, I'm not working on stuff,
but it feels like work a little bit in a fun way.
Oh yeah, like ever since I started doing
like the 3S Max and all the modeling
software and the game engine stuff,
I find it much harder to enjoy those kinds of games now.

(03:55):
Like I can't really play them anymore without feeling like,
yeah, why am I playing this one?
I could be making real stuff.
Right, right, yeah.
It's a bummer, because they were fun.
I don't know if it's ever gonna come back,
or if that's just a part of us that's lost now.
It's really sucks.
What is your favorite game of all time?
Bad question, next question.
It's gotta be like Crash Bandicoot or something.

(04:16):
That's what I'm pulling at like you're...
Yeah, it depends on like my mood.
It's either Crash Bandicoot or Doom Eternal.
It's a box between those two.
Those are so drastically different.
That's why it says bad question.
That is funny, because whenever you work on stuff
and you show us your games and everything,
it's always like, yeah, the Doom really intense,
like bloody, gory old stuff,
and then it's like the happy pumpkins jumping around

(04:37):
or whatever, it's like, yeah.
The dichotomy between those two is hilarious.
Yeah.
Do you have any broad advice for Game Dev or for YouTube
before we jump into the topic and everything else?
I don't know, I got almost 300 subscribers.
I'm not sure if I'm the best person to ask.
Well, you have a very relatable, like a lot of us,
we're all in that position at one point,

(04:57):
like growing and trying to learn the channel.
So what has been working for you?
What do you like?
Any advice?
Deadlines, I don't know if anyone likes to hear that word,
but the more I give myself an actual set,
deadlines to meet, it actually gives me a,
it gives me like an actual timeframe to finish something.

(05:19):
And with me, I have like a busy life, I have work,
I have a love life, I have upkeep around my house,
so like I can't really just work on things forever.
So I think for those who have a job and all that,
I think having a strict schedule,
trying to make sure that, like if you get,

(05:40):
if you set yourself up for just one month for a project,
don't go over that month, like just finish it, do it,
and just do what you know, and it will work out.
Good luck.
I feel like I struggle with like enforcing that deadline,
because I feel like when it comes,
it can just go and like nothing happens,

(06:03):
there's no repercussion.
Is there, go ahead.
That's where you give yourself a piece of candy.
You see, you ever heard of that,
I think like you reinforce yourself,
so like you get yourself a pizza or whatever,
like oh, you know what, I did it, I finished it,
and if I push it back, I'm not getting that pizza.

(06:24):
I think exterior pressure is like the best way,
that's why I always point to the game jams,
and it works for you too, right Henry,
when you have exterior pressure,
something outside of you pushing you in a certain way,
then like even if it's arbitrary, it's all fuck,
it doesn't work on me, I don't know why, I don't know why.
I think we talked about it before,
it's like are you as productive when you're not
in a game jam, and I go no, not even close,
not even like one-tenth of it,

(06:44):
but when there's an arbitrary like hey,
the game's gonna be due and there's nothing
you can do about it, then all of a sudden it's like,
well I don't have to sleep,
like I can skip some of this or whatever,
I don't think it's healthy, but I was just gonna say quickly,
it also explains why like game,
like crunching is so big and like game involvement,
because it is like, when there's like a deadline,
I can sympathize with it,
I'm sure it's much crazier in a game studio, but.
College sort of sets you up to like work on stuff

(07:05):
that you don't really want to,
so I'm curious if you think that if college
sort of like built that skill where like if there's
something that you need to get done,
you'll just get it done.
No, no.
It was in college, I was so bad at college dude,
like I almost failed it, all right?
I have, I, I, I.
Did you do it in four years?

(07:26):
No, I did two years, I did an accelerated course.
Oh, cool.
Nice.
And what was the degree or?
My degree was a Bachelor of Science in Game Arts.
Wow.
So it was like really direct.
Yeah, that was very confusing for a lot of people
because like I keep getting like a job offers on LinkedIn
for like, hey, we saw you have a Bachelor of Science,

(07:47):
why don't we work on our really big programming tool?
I'm like, no, I can't, I think you missed the part
where it says arts, arts.
Yeah.
The Achilles heel of every, yeah.
Yeah, so great, so I'm not getting the arts positions
if I became the computer science positions.

(08:08):
That's really interesting, I thought you went to,
I mean, it is a four year degree, right?
But you just took it accelerated.
Was there any like requirements
or anything that you had to do to,
to be able to join a course like that or a program?
No, no, I'd say that as like,
they kind of just accept you
because they like having students there
and hopefully graduates as well.

(08:31):
Well, it's actually interesting that you say four year course
because I'm doing a similar,
a similar course in terms of the content,
but I'm also doing four year course.
But I don't think you can do it accelerated.
It has to be four years,
but the fourth year is shorter year

(08:51):
because instead of doing your usual two semesters,
it's like one large capstone project
or like a report or something like that.
All right, right, yeah.
So, yeah, it's obviously very different in Australia
as like college in the US,
but mine is more of like a computer science kind of job,

(09:13):
whereas I really wanted to find something
that was just for game dev, but I just couldn't.
So when you say like you did something with game science
and art, it's like, wow.
I was like, I don't know, be a dream.
If I had to be honest with you,
the way you're taking it right now
is the way I probably would have taken it
if I went back to school.
Really?
Because it's a little more broad

(09:34):
because the issue I have currently
is I have a very specialized field that I went into.
And so with the industry kind of imploding on itself,
I can't really take that skill set too far.
And also I picked something, for me, it was safe.
Like I don't, like for you guys,

(09:55):
it probably did not add safe.
Before I went into college,
I was already three modeling with 3S Max for five years.
So I was like, oh, this should be a slam dunk.
I should be able to get into,
like she gave my degree real easily
and then it'll be fine.
And then about three years after I got my degree,
AI started taking over.
So, you know, who knows what's gonna happen

(10:17):
with my game arts degree.
But do you think that AI is actually going to,
I feel like, especially in 3D stuff,
I don't feel like I've seen a lot of AI things.
It's just a matter of time.
There's a six up.
Oh yeah, yeah, this is a matter of time.
Especially in like the,
I'm not in a very creative field.
Like I'm in an archivist,

(10:38):
so there's not really something creative
about a bunch of buildings.
So like, they're very repetitive.
And once you get to the point where over machines
can like read the elevation plans that we were given,
because we're just given a set of instructions
and we just execute those instructions.
And I mean, if a machine can read through the instructions,

(11:00):
then yeah, I think that's when we start to
worry about whether or not I have a job or not.
Do you ever think about going back to college?
No, not college.
No.
No, I have a very name.
How about any of you guys?
Do you ever feel like you should go back?
I mean, a couple of you are obviously still in there,
so you should probably go back when the,
one day.

(11:20):
You wanna go back for me?
I feel like I should go back.
Yeah, I feel like I should go back to college.
Maxi, do you ever think about going back?
No.
Going back to school?
My mom wants me to, but I'm not going to.
I think it's a failure.
I think I'm a bad student.
Like in high school, I was just, I was not good.
Yeah, I think it would be a waste of time and money for me,
especially the money part.

(11:42):
If I were to try to go back,
I'm just like not good at that structure,
like sitting down, listening to somebody talk.
I feel like I got better at it as
get more into coding and development stuff,
cause you're just sort of forced to do it more.
Although, I don't know,
most of the bad parts in college are front loaded for me.
It's always like the stuff, the general education stuff.
And then once that's out of the way,
typically college gets a lot better

(12:03):
than high school and all that stuff.
So sometimes I consider it
if it wasn't going to be this giant debt to have.
Cause I went to community college for two years
and I just took my time.
I have a two year degree, quote unquote, whatever,
not really, but it took like five years
cause I was just working and doing it all at the same time.
And the only nice part about all that is I have no debt.
So I just paid it all as I went.

(12:24):
But I don't think I got anything.
I got nothing out of that at all.
But do you have debt?
Yeah.
Congratulations.
I'm just like the common American young adults.
Even the American dream.
How much debt, I would imagine for a two year degree.
I mean, it's a four year degree,

(12:44):
but for a two year program,
it would be less than like the full four years
cause you're just spending the last time there, right?
Well, it's a polytechnic.
So they can put whatever price they want.
So it's pretty pricey.
Do you?
Like I don't really want to say out loud for a podcast,
but it's a substantial amount that'll make me want to.

(13:07):
Video game yourself.
Yeah, yeah, in Minecraft.
In a video game, yeah, in Minecraft.
So what's your stance that if you could go back,
you would just do a different degree?
I mean, to be honest, I probably wouldn't go back
to college if I had the chance.
I feel like as a, I guess like when it comes to college,
it's a very hitter.

(13:28):
Like you have to really know what exactly you want out of it.
And I actually kind of don't think
that getting an education out of it
is actually the thing you should strive for.
Cause I feel like that's what most people go for in college.
It's obviously like they think about like
the education that you get.
But in game dev specifically, like I'm not,
I'm gonna specify this is for game dev,

(13:49):
not for like other sciences and stuff like that.
Cause I feel like differently for like a, for doctors,
please go to college if you're a gamer.
I'd appreciate that.
But for game dev, the problem with game dev
is game technology, it upgrades so fast,
it progresses so quickly that curriculums can't keep up.

(14:10):
So the curriculum that I was given is severely outdated.
It was a substance painter.
We weren't even using the modern version of it.
We weren't using modern versions of any of the tools.
And I remember having fights with my teachers
about like proper, like how to handle polygons
and how to properly set up hero models.

(14:32):
And I would give her resources
and they'll just say I'm wrong.
So I don't think that you should go in for,
if you want to be a game dev,
it's probably good to have this degree
just because like then it shows you
that you've gone through it
and it gives you an actual tangible object
showing you that you know your stuff.

(14:54):
But what I think is more importantly is
the people you meet.
Because I'd say that's,
I've met the most talented people through school.
Like I have friends who I live with,
who I talk to on a regular,
people who, yeah, just who I work with,

(15:14):
who like I would have never met unless I went to school.
And so like my network has grown exponentially from that.
And because of that,
I was able to create more valid projects.
And I know how much you guys love working on teams,
but this is where I found most of my team members
because we're forced to do cap zones together.
So we're forced to, all right,

(15:34):
we have to get this together
or else we're gonna fail our course
and we're gonna spend more money on college.
And we don't want to do that.
So yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it's interesting to say that.
I went through a couple boot camps
and I feel like that biggest thing that I got out of it
was that connections that you get with other people.
But do you think that going to college

(15:56):
is worth building those connections?
Like with all the debt and all the-
He's gonna say no.
Why are you even asking?
We hate college.
Get out of here.
Well, I don't know.
What are you thinking?
I don't know.
Like do you think-
As much as I hate it,
as much as I hate it,
I probably would do it again.
And it is because of the fact that
if so much of my life right now
is built off of the fact that I went to college.

(16:17):
So as much as I hate it,
I can't disregard the fact that I got my job
because of my degree.
If my supervisor straight up told me
that if I didn't have a degree in any form,
they would be like,
this guy's probably a loser.
A person who doesn't know how to keep deadlines.
He doesn't know how to do this stuff actually.

(16:39):
So that has helped me in that area.
And also, again, the people who I met,
like I live with one of the people who I met
and he's one of the best people I've ever met.
And we work on majority of projects together.
So it's very, very important to make those connections.
And it's hard to do so in a,
I'd say the only other place I've met,

(17:00):
a lot of solid connections was through YouTube,
which I don't think that's a very typical plan
for most people.
Yeah, it can be tricky out there.
So how do you feel?
Here's my thing.
I feel like to me,
the whole thing with traditional education,
it gives you way more a grounded understanding
of the thing that you're doing.
So for me, like if I'm learning on YouTube, right?

(17:22):
Or I'm learning through online stuff,
I don't really know if I'm learning
the right way to do anything.
And then the back of my head,
there's always this needling feeling of like,
yeah, I know how to code a little bit,
but like, man, if I see someone's code
that went to college, like fuck,
that's gonna be way more put together.
And I feel like you'd have a level of confidence.
That'd be my worry of someone like
abandoning all traditional forms of education
and just trying to learn on your own.
Is that like, you wouldn't have that confidence?

(17:43):
I would like to like add to that.
I've met the dumbest people going to college.
Oh, that's true.
I have too.
Wait, oh my God, yeah.
Now that you mentioned that.
Their programming is so,
like you're seeing like the best of the best.
But like 90% of the people I've met are like,
how did you get this far?
I've met so many people that were an autopilot

(18:03):
because I took art classes.
And you see people that are like autopiloting art classes,
like they just aren't really trying that hard.
And they're just doing it to get the grade,
like to get a good grade.
The whole time I'm thinking like,
your portfolio is gonna be so bad.
Like, they're not gonna get anything out of this.
Like, why are you doing this?
Yeah, so that's true.
As I say that, I mean, when I went to community college,
yeah, there wasn't, there was a lot of people
that it wasn't very impressive at all.
So maybe there's just a stigma there for me.

(18:25):
I feel like there is sort of this feeling
of wanting to put more emphasis on college
in terms of what you gain from it.
I feel like the connections is a big thing,
but I feel like the education, like you said, Kamen,
like it's not a big thing, right?

(18:46):
I feel like people value it too much
because there are some fields like the UX field.
They really want you to have a degree.
But then people coming out of college,
like I've seen some portfolios, they're not great, right?
I feel like the level of skill that you gain from it
is not any different from the level of skill
that you would have if you just tried to learn on your own.

(19:10):
In fact, I think I see the opposite.
And it's not because learning on your own is better,
but I think that people who are actively learning
on their own are more committed people, right?
They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they're actively going on and searching their own stuff.
So the level of quality that you find in those people
is gonna be higher than somebody that went to college.
But I don't know what you guys think about that.

(19:31):
I don't know if I agree with that.
The main point being is a big thing with learning online
is you can get information from good people,
but you can also get information from bad people
with bad practices.
And that's another thing that links back to the AI.
It's like AI will replace good programmers
and you're like, oh, that's fine.
And so you remember that you're a bad programmer

(19:52):
and your practices are bad,
which is very much the case for a lot of people
self-taught, including me, I would say.
So when you learn yourself online,
I feel like you can pick up a lot of bad traits
from other people.
Whereas with the university,
they most of the time teach you very good programming
practices, like you and I, Henry,

(20:15):
we're just going through like an assignment
that we're doing the other day.
And it was like, instead of using public variables
in a class, you were using accesses and getters,
and setters, sorry, getters and setters,
instead of the fields as a public.
And I just researched and it was,

(20:37):
the reason why that's good is because it allows
for more reusability in other classes,
and also allows for error checking and validation,
which you can't do with public fields.
Yeah, that is-
So it's like small things like that.
That is true.
I feel like, okay, here's the point that I was gonna make.
When I saw the code, the code did not make sense

(21:02):
the way it was written, the way it had it,
it just had straight public getters and setters.
And I told you, the reason why you would want those
is if you want to throw exceptions,
or if you, I didn't say it, but you mentioned it,
like handling information validation.

(21:25):
You fucking nerds.
I don't know what this means.
But what I'm saying is, the point that I'm saying is,
I didn't go to college, and I told you that, right?
So it's not impossible for somebody to learn
whatever good practices, right?
It is, I would say it is more difficult,
but I feel like if you have somebody

(21:45):
that's really interested in learning,
it's not like an impossible thing to do.
And I feel like, I feel in general, the code programming,
is a less degree focused field than other fields.
I feel like people care more about your level of skill
than other places would care.

(22:06):
But there are other fields where that's not the case.
And I feel like that's an issue with hiring managers
and with companies, rather than with an issue of lack of skill
on that individual person is what I'm saying.
Yeah, the course covers a lot more on project management
and other aspects of computer science as well,

(22:28):
not just the programming, which I feel like
is more suited for the degree,
because when you go into a job,
you're working more as a project manager
and working as a software developer,
which is code as well as you're working on
the implementations and whatever
sort of project management as well.

(22:50):
So I do totally agree that you can learn
these good practices online if you're dedicated enough.
I think it's dangerous though.
I think it's dangerous to fall in a trap
where you're learning one sort of thing
and then you kind of stick with that
and you're not sure because you don't have a foundation
that's solid.

(23:10):
I think it could be a slippery slope though.
I don't agree fully with that statement
because I feel like when it comes to programming,
I feel like there's this big situation
where a lot of programmers feel like what they know
is the best way and the biggest thing with programming
is it's actually very rare.
It's like a tree, like there's so many different ways
you can go and it could actually go in many different ways

(23:33):
of how to solve certain problems.
Like I will agree that there are situations
where you need to understand how to better program,
but I feel like you can still,
even if you're learning the bad practices,
at least you're still learning programming.
And I'm not saying that you should keep
with those bad practices

(23:54):
because obviously they're bad practices,
but for a newcomer, I'd say that the best thing
for a newcomer is to start feeling out the foundations
and building on top of that.
And when it comes to game dev,
you're always gonna be learning.
Programming is always gonna be changing.
It's always gonna be evolving.

(24:14):
I'd say the biggest thing I could say is,
so from one of my jobs at my current position,
I'm a tools programmer along with 3D art and all that.
And so I was taught Python 3,
but a lot of my courses that I went into were Python 2.

(24:37):
So you'd have to adapt.
And so what would happen afterwards
if you need to learn these things
and you're no longer in school and things like that,
or like, I feel like you need to have the adaptability
of being able to learn on the fly
because these are ever evolving fields.

(24:58):
And so I feel like it's a little more dangerous
to feel like there is a place of,
actually I don't know where my point is going
after this actually.
It's interesting, you talked about the bad practices stuff
and then what I found going through
and learning the code stuff,
especially when I took breaks and started doing the game jams,
was that I was actually doing the bad practice, right?

(25:21):
And then I would run into the problem
is the reason why you shouldn't do said bad practice.
And then I'd be like, oh, and how like this,
it would be the most roundabout way to learn it.
And I feel like if you just followed it
from beginning the correct way,
you would do it correctly, but you might not know why.
But I was like, oh, now I know why.
Because in like little things,
like I would have, this is a really direct dumb example,
but like let's say there was some kind of like uppercase issue

(25:44):
with like saving a file out
or saving something to, so I could run on itch.
And like it just doesn't load
because like I use intercapped things for some things
and not others.
Basically what I'm saying is that like
you'll run into little dumb issues that like,
it's so obvious, it's very basic level stuff.
But it's like, oh, now I know,
and like I'm never gonna fucking forget that.
Cause it's like drilled into my head,
like the game jam was due, I was trying to upload it.
The game didn't work.
I've read through the errors and been like,

(26:05):
oh, cause you use the capital letter here,
but not there, it just broke everything.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, really dumb basic stuff that you should,
yeah, you should just know.
But it's interesting you just come full circle,
like you do learn the bad,
and there's other more crazy stuff that's like, yeah,
and I look at my old code and I'm like,
I just want to rewrite this now
because I've learned why I should never have written it
this way to begin with.
It just takes longer I think.

(26:25):
I think in game dev, it's like having bad practices
isn't that big of a deal.
Like that's a good thing about making games
when you code something badly.
It's not like a playing crashes.
It's just like the game doesn't work.
That's like the worst thing that can happen.
So yeah, I think it's not important

(26:46):
to go to coding school for to make games like.
You're like, and therefore school stupid.
Yeah, performance though.
Like what about game performance if it's bad?
Yeah, I will say that.
That's the scary stuff.
Yeah, I will say that.
That's probably the biggest thing
that I feel like I'm missing out on
because I feel like after programming for a few years now,

(27:06):
I feel like I understand sometimes
why certain things run better than other things.
But then there's other things that I don't really understand.
I just know that it does run faster.
And I feel like that's like compilation stuff.
Like I was working on a mobile gamer
and I was having a ton of issues with Gradle,
which is like, I think it's like a compilation software.

(27:29):
And I just don't know anything about it.
I don't know anything about optimization
or how like program interacts with like the actual hardware.
And I feel like that is such a difficult thing to get into
because I don't even know what to look up.
I don't even know how to get started.
And I feel like that would be a benefit,
but I don't know if colleges teach that either.

(27:49):
No, they do, they do.
I know in like in game engineering,
I knew a lot of people who were making game engines.
And so like that's a big deal with a game
making their own engine is like optimization
of assets and all that.
I think I'm learning that next year as well.
Just compilation stuff.

(28:10):
Oh, I think game engines, I was gonna be like,
dude, let's make a game engine.
Let's take over Unreal.
Let's get it.
One of the biggest fears I have in this whole thing,
we almost touched on it with the performance thing,
but I get really worried that I'm gonna get to the finish line
and my project's just not gonna work
for a large chunk of people,
meaning like the game's gonna be buggy in some way
that's gonna like, and you know how these audiences work,
like you get review bombs and then you're,

(28:30):
it's just like such a, it's an instant like shift
in perception where it's just like, no, your game's bad,
you're a bad developer.
And like I worry about that so much
because like it doesn't, it seems like that's where
you really need the core skills
that you're gonna get from somewhere like college
as opposed to like, as opposed to just being like,
you know, learning as you go.
And it also feels like,
I kind of like part of what you're saying, Henry,
is like all the fun, sexy stuff is easy to learn online.

(28:52):
All like the, hey, how to make your game look cool.
And here's like how to do an easy third person
looking game with great lighting, all that stuff.
And then when it comes to nitty gritty stuff,
it's like, well, I'm Googling it and I have no answers.
And you're like, yeah, cause it's boring
and no one wants to learn the boring stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
I feel you're right.
I think when you're learning stuff
and you search up tutorials,
a lot of the time you're copying down what they're doing

(29:13):
and you're not learning,
a lot of learning does come from trial and error though.
Like if something breaks and you're switching values
or whatever, but I think whenever I watch a tutorial
and something super complex,
it just flies over my head.
I'm not learning anything.
And I think the same thing goes for learning good practices

(29:33):
as well.
The code that I'm copying down has good practices
cause it's from a person who understands code well.
And the stuff I'm doing usually is bad practices.
And I'm like, oh, this person has done something
so much more optimised or so much more different
than the way I would do it.
And I do learn stuff from that, but on the other hand,
it's like, it flies over my head cause it's so like,

(29:55):
I don't know what's going on here.
I think in that sense,
it's good to start from the ground up knowing
what to do and then build your way up.
But it's, yeah, it's hard to do it if you're self teaching.
It's just good to learn the basics first
and then also learn good practices first.

(30:19):
Also, I don't think good practices in code
do have a lot of a result in the end performance
of the actual game.
I think most of the performance actually lies in
like the graphics part of the game.
Like this is where I have to optimise things constantly,
not in the code.
Like it's not like the game runs slow

(30:40):
and then I have to do something in the code.
No, I have to do something about the meshes
or I have too many batches or something
after I reduce the batches, stuff like that.
That's usually what the performance issues are
and not that I wrote some code that was just bad.

(31:00):
I kind of feel like when it comes to game development,
like good practices are always good to have
just because like, you know, the good practices.
However, I do think though, like your main focus
should be on like getting your target frame right.
Cause I feel like-
The Doom guy would say that, wouldn't you?
Get your target frame.
Yeah, no matter what.
That's the Doom guy right.
The first versus Doom guys.

(31:20):
You gotta have at least 120 at all times.
Oh no, like my point is like, if you have bad practices
but like you can still maintain like 60 FPS,
do you really need to optimise your game further?
Cause like you're already running at what would be optimal.
And so-
I'm sure the stadium would have something to say about that.
The stadium, like he's not satisfied.

(31:42):
I don't know if he has a million frames per second.
He'll get there one day.
Yeah.
So the reason why I say that though is like,
I feel like that's a good way to like kind of cripple yourself
and try to prevent yourself from like moving forward.
Cause like I'd say that I'm not the best coder in the world.
I'm just not.
I'm an artist turn programmer.

(32:02):
So like I have art brain.
That's why I use blueprints.
Same.
There's no cure for art brain.
Yeah.
So like I do things that's,
I think like, oh, this should work, right?
Yeah.
This four loop within another four loop,
that should be okay, right?
Oh no, that's bad.
I've had the same thoughts.
Yeah.

(32:23):
And like recently I've found out that like, oh, oh.
So the reason why all my games have memory issues
is because you can't use hard references.
You have to use soft references.
What the hell is a hard reference?
And so like you go through like these stages
but like the thing is like,
at least I was still producing things.
And like, like I actually have like a little bit of a fan base.

(32:45):
Like, okay, I say a little bit.
I mean, I like 10 people who like keep up with my games.
Like who like, but at least I have people who played my games,
who said my games were amazing.
And little did they know that it was made by like some,
some dude who, who, who spent the last two days on monsters
trying to crank out this video game for this game jam.
And it's like horribly optimized.

(33:06):
It doesn't have any, it's so, so bare bones with the programming.
I did what I could to make it work.
But at the end of the day, the video game was there
and people were playing it.
Yeah, I feel like there's,
I've heard stories of people like having the tendency,
like after they graduate from college

(33:26):
to rely on that college degree.
And then when they start applying for jobs,
they will like run into people and go like,
so where's your portfolio?
Like what have you built like on top of like
these simple projects?
And they go like,
but I don't know how universal of an experience that is.
And I feel like,

(33:49):
I feel like you tend to get those people more in college
than, yeah, I mean, I mean that point,
like then people themselves teach.
Have you guys ever paid for like the courses,
like the online, like there are so many of them now,
like we'll either game development,
like this is how you get into game development
or even coding, which seems a little bit more justified.
The get into game development stuff seems like
YouTube gurus to me, where they're like,
you know how to, you know, make your game famous.

(34:11):
I'm gonna teach you.
I'm like, I don't know if this is gonna be useful at all.
But have you guys ever done any of that?
Should I say the name?
Should I say the name?
I don't need to say it.
No, cause then you're gonna cut it out.
You have to do all the editing.
You can say whatever you want through editing.
I just want to mention that you should have everything.
It actually is a YouTuber game.
No, but I'll go with the positive.

(34:31):
I feel like I have done that.
I feel Game Dev TV is like one of my favorite places
to like to learn.
That's where I first started learning.
And I feel they've been pretty consistent in their quality.
But I have also taken some other courses
where that were super disappointing
and that had like really bad coding.

(34:52):
And it's interesting to see that,
I feel like a lot of courses are more focused
on the end product than actually like teaching you anything.
And I think that's like, that's sort of what tutorials are.
Tutorials are focused on the end product
and then actual teaching of whatever you're trying to learn.

(35:14):
So I would recommend if you're trying to learn
to go through courses instead of trying to go
like learning on YouTube,
cause I feel like that's just the wrong place to look at
unless you're looking at like code monkey or something.
Yeah, I'd say that that's where I learned
the majority of my knowledge as well is through like Eda me.
I'd say that's like, I'd say,

(35:35):
Oh really?
Oh yeah, yeah, like I learned how to code on Python
through that and that's actually what got me my job
kind of almost maybe.
I like to think so at least,
but like through that I was able to learn
how to like make tools for Maya.
And like that, that, that, if it didn't get my job,
I at least secured my job cause now they rely on my code
that they have no idea how to disassemble from.

(35:58):
So, but yeah, I learned how to code like legitimate
because I've known how to like blueprint code for years,
but never knew how to like code in like C plus plus
or like Python until like I took those courses
and learned like full on like how to type it out.
I feel like it's hard to tell.
Oh, go ahead.
Yeah, I was just gonna say,

(36:18):
I like learned from like the free websites
just like Codecademy and stuff.
And I also want to say like,
even though I'm talking about all this like,
oh, you should learn best practices and like being,
feel like a really strict perspective.
I am in no way a good programmer.
Like I just want to get that out there.
Like I'm not trying to say that I'm really a good programmer.
It's too much self-deprecation in this area.

(36:40):
I think it's good to like learn the practices
cause I know how bad of a programmer I am.
And I think it's like really important
that I should learn how to do it properly.
So I'm not saying that I'm a good programmer.
I just say that things important to learn.
But yeah, go ahead.
Well, I always wonder when it comes to paid stuff,
some people have the premise it's like,
if I pay for it, I'm going to be committed to it.

(37:00):
Do you guys feel that way about
taking these kinds of things or no?
Well, here's the thing.
I wish I was, I wish I felt that way
cause I spent a lot of money on these things.
The comments like I just add to the pile of debt.
It just keeps growing.
It's like, is that a good thing though?
Cause like if you pay for something
and then you like, you're paying for something productive,
like you're learning.
So maybe if you pay for something

(37:21):
and you locked in and you're like learning it's like,
maybe it's good that you pay for it.
I feel like for a course, I don't really have that feeling.
But we, I have a friend, you guys know him Giovanni.
He actually does do that where he will sign up for programs
that have like include live sessions
and have like actual deadlines where if you don't meet
then you know, there's some sort of whatever like

(37:44):
repercussion for that.
And I see that it works really well for him.
Cause he's been like trying to learn Figma for years,
literal years and he hasn't really made any good strides
in it until recently until when he just signed up
for a course or for a program with like a live stuff.

(38:07):
Maxi, I'm very distracted by that.
Sorry, what's going on there?
I'm gonna be right back.
Okay.
Okay, okay, okay.
I don't know man, education is so bizarre in this field
cause you can do so much without it.
And then it feels like sometimes you don't need it,
but is that just like a big cope?
That's how I feel overall about education
is that it's tough to figure it out.
And then the last thing you wanna do is being a lot of debt

(38:29):
and be nowhere better off than before.
I don't know, have you guys ever thought about working for
like bigger, I mean, I know some of us
in comment you want to, right?
Work for a bigger corporations
or work for like an actual game dev job or no?
That face in my face.
That was so good.
Let's hear she's making a face.
That was like, I know you, okay, really.

(38:50):
Okay, okay.
I used to, but my optimism for like triple A space
has died significantly.
Why is that?
So like, it seems like every time I want to enjoy a company
and like, oh my God, I love that company.
I can't wait to work for them.
Like a skeleton pops out.
I'm like, oh, okay.
You guys are kind of assholes.

(39:11):
And I don't know if I trust you guys anymore.
Like, I think something that happened recently
that also kind of burned me was,
well, I should have two things.
So I applied for a pretty big company out here in Texas.
I'm not going to name names, but I went to,

(39:31):
I was about to get the job
and then they actually sent me an email saying I have the job.
And then I'm like, oh my God,
I kind of came to develop a job.
Well, what the hell?
I'm going to be, I'm going to be a rigor.
Hell, yeah.
And like, so I was like super excited.
I got my army of roommates
and then we were just like, we're going to go to Texas boys.
Let's go.

(39:52):
And then while I was driving, they let me know.
I was like, oh, sorry.
That was premature.
We were at, we actually accepted someone else.
I was like, okay, well, I'm still going to Texas.
Jesus.
You're in the car with all your stuff packed,
driving to the job and they go,
no, we're going to cancel out.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's fucking shitty.
Yeah, yeah.

(40:13):
So it was really great because, you know,
it was a life changing because it was going to be so awesome.
And then it became life changing
because I could be homeless soon.
So, you know, that was a little bit wild.
But so that permanently tarnished
my feeling towards that company.
And then I had some friends who actually worked there

(40:34):
and they were, they left to work for Blizzard.
And then they're like, yeah, that company sucks.
I hate that company.
He's like, Barbara, why were you trying to encourage me
to go into first place?
That's insane.
And then, yeah, then later I applied to another company out here.
And they didn't, first of all,

(40:56):
they didn't believe that my portfolio is my own portfolio.
They, apparently I'm too talented for them
to believe that actually made that.
They're like, you can't be an artist
and a program at the same time.
Don't, you can't fool us.
I was like, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry.
And then the, I tried again later
and then I found out that they had this like harsh

(41:19):
non-compete clause where basically,
if you make literally anything while you work for them,
it belongs to them.
And yeah, I just was not really.
That sounds insane.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thankfully that's not going away.
I don't know if you saw the news.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was just about to bring that up.
They recently passed along.

(41:40):
Maybe I'll try again this time, you know?
Wait, what was the news?
I don't know.
They recently passed a lot to ban non-compete clauses,
which is crazy.
See what I'm saying?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's gonna, the law already passed,
but it's not in effect yet.
I think, do you know when it will be in effect?
It's like a couple of weeks, right?

(42:01):
Or a week or something?
Oh, I have no clue.
You just say Dino?
Do you know?
I think he said.
What?
I'm back, sorry about that.
Hey Dino, do you know?
Do you know?
Oh, he said Dino.
You're in the room with this right now.
You're asking Dino.
Do you know?
I thought he said, did you know?
Yeah, did you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it was very clearly, do you know?
Do you know?

(42:22):
Okay.
But it's crazy because I feel like,
have you guys ever signed a non-compete?
Yeah, but like mine's an archivist,
so it's not like, oh God,
oh God, I'm gonna be making buildings in my spare time.
You better not.
That's why the, yeah,
your games have no buildings in them.
We all know why now.

(42:42):
Yeah.
I feel like non-competes are more prevalent
than maybe you did sign in and you just are not aware,
because I had to.
Yeah, you can't go to any other dairy store, Zeth, all right?
Yeah, exactly, maybe.
Legit, I signed a non-compete
when I was working at Domino's, you know?
I could not work at another.

(43:03):
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Seriously?
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
I'm pretty sure I can moonlight at a second,
like a stop and shop or whatever.
I can moonlight at a stop.
I told my manager, like, oh, I got another job.
I was working like a few jobs at the time.
I told her I got another job at this place
and I was like, oh, is it a pizza shop?

(43:23):
I was like, yeah.
And she was like, oh, you can't do that.
You signed a non-compete.
I was like, oh, I did not.
I did not.
That sounds insane.
I don't understand the logic there.
Like you're gonna go there.
Actually can't make pizza at home.
Otherwise, they can take it and sell it as a repeat.
Well, non-competes are meant to,
like, stop you from working out at different companies.

(43:44):
Not like working out your own stuff.
Working at home, like if you're just doing as a friend.
That's not fully true.
In the creative field, it's definitely that.
Because I had a friend who worked at Sony
and he ended up leaving his job at Sony
because they were trying to take his project.
He was working at home.
And so they said that because of the non-compete

(44:05):
that they signed, it's either that they get the project
or he leaves and he chose to leave.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess it differs from company to company.
But I mean, Domino's was one,
but I also worked at a editing house.

(44:26):
And they asked for a non-compete
for up to a year after I left the job.
Which I think even before this,
I think that wasn't enforceable.
I'm not too sure about it,
but they said that you can't work at another editing
or production studio after you leave this job for one year.

(44:50):
So I guess I didn't see on my end
like the personal projects at home stuff.
I feel like that'd be shit now
to work at a game dev place.
Because all I'd want to do, like for actual studio,
all I would want to do is work on my own stuff on the side
while I got paid to do, you know,
to basically learn and work on a game.
But if they're gonna take it,
then it's like, I'll screw that.
I'm just gonna work on it.
That's why you have a pen name

(45:10):
and don't tell them who you really are.
Oh, that means they're committing crimes.
I understand.
Yeah, perfectly.
Yeah, but is it really a crime if you're happy?
True.
Yes, I would say.
I mean, I don't have to cry.
No, no, no, no, let him talk.
I'm happy while I'm doing crime.
I just wanted to commit that murder.
I just really made me happy.
I hate it.

(45:31):
You know, I, you know.
I feel like I'm with you.
Henry knows what's up.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, all right, Henry,
you want to commit some casual murder?
Let's go.
I think if I,
I'll go ahead.
I was just gonna say,
okay, I was just gonna say,

(45:52):
guess what?
Zeth, they're taking away,
they're taking away, compete, non-compete.
Non-compete, you can compete now.
Normal competes.
You can compete now.
So, you know.
I can go work at two grocery stores at the same time.
Bro, true.
No one's gonna stop you.
I might stop Game Dev just to do that.
Maybe that's the new plan, you know?

(46:13):
Have a passion.
Literally work at the same time.
Like being two places at once.
I would say I could do Night Crew
at a different grocery store
and then I'll do Day Crew at my grocery store.
Like it'd be my thing.
I feel like, I don't know if this is still true,
but it feels like when I was growing up,
it seemed like when you went for like these fun jobs
that Game Dev sort of pitches like a fun job on the outside.

(46:34):
I know it's stressful
and it's probably not fun once you're doing it,
but it's a job a lot of people want.
It seems like those jobs pay less
and are way more competitive to get.
And now we're talking about them having non-compete,
at least currently having them.
They seem like a nightmare then.
It seems like on average, you shouldn't go for them.
You should go to college for something in coding
so you could do your, if you're into your side project thing.
But then you shouldn't go for the job
that everyone wants, that's not gonna pay as much

(46:55):
and that's probably gonna burn you out
and not gonna make you,
and try to take your game from you
if you work for someone or something.
I feel, I started learning web developments,
like that's how I got into programming first was websites.
And it's crazy the amount that they were offering
for salaries for web developments.
And then the amount they were offering for game development

(47:15):
was like huge difference.
And I feel like after doing both,
web development is so much easier than game development.
It's crazy.
My degree was two years in multimedia studies,
but most of what I did was web stuff.
And I even was making portfolios for web design.
Yeah, it was more like the visual aspect of it
because I was all artsy.
But still, yeah, I was right there with you with web stuff

(47:37):
and I was looking at the same like indeed,
like going through and yeah, it seemed promising at the time
and I never pulled the trigger on it, but yeah.
Question for you, Henry, since you're all about web development.
Do you know how to send to a div?
Wow.
It's a little difficult.
I don't know if I could tell you right now.
That's why I don't know how to.

(47:58):
Do you know about rest?
I don't know about rest.
I never rest.
HTML.
Are you?
Are you?
Yeah.
You don't know what rest is.
Google.
So I don't.
What's rest?
I have no idea what rest.
I'm like changing the subject.

(48:19):
I'm interested in it.
Well, nope.
That's for you guys to find out.
I'm not a web dev, so I don't know.
I only did.
I'm a fake.
I'm a poser.
I guess we don't know.
Guess we will never know.
All right.
It seems like we're all pretty mixed or negative on college education.
Not like what?
Have fun.
Go go into debt.
You know, why not?

(48:40):
I feel.
Yeah, I guess I feel like this to go back on that a little bit.
I don't I feel like I have this negative perception of college.
But the way that life is right now, like society, like you still kind of need it
because I feel like we're all pretty talented, right?
We're all we all know.

(49:01):
OK, like legit, we all are like capable of doing stuff.
But none of us are working in the game dev.
Only, you know, Comet is working like an archviz.
And, you know, he had has gotten opportunities to work in game dev
and was like close to that, right?
And he was the only one that went to college or that went to college

(49:21):
for for like a full four year degree, and he got those opportunities.
So I see I feel like you can say.
College isn't worth it, but at the same time, like we're sitting here, you know,
I guess it depends on what you want.
Yeah, it depends on if you want to work for a big company, you know,
that makes games for a big company.
Then I guess it makes sense to go to college.

(49:44):
But if you want to be an indie game in the game dev, then, you know, why?
I don't see a reason.
I think it's interesting, because I feel like that question you're posing
is also a very new question, because I felt like when I was growing up,
like there wasn't really any dev.
It was just the big companies.

(50:04):
It was like there was Epic, there was Night Dog, there was Insomniac.
And so, like, growing up, I can't wait to be a triple A developer
and like be a part of that world, because there was no indie dev.
It wasn't until like, I'd say like, like 10 years ago.
10 years ago, when Xbox Live Arcade really got big and they were like,
hey, these small games are not just flash games anymore.
They're actually games you can buy.

(50:25):
Yeah, I feel like the first wave was like Super Meat Boy and like
Braid and those kind of games.
And it was the summer of arcade.
And I feel like even at the time, it still felt like an unachievable thing.
It still felt like these were like super giants in the field.
But nowadays, you have things like Lethal Company, you know, taking off.

(50:46):
Oh, dear, right? Oh, dear is like taking off too.
So I feel like we have seen like study case studies of this actually working.
So I guess that is true.
It's also not only like these big guys.
I know someone also in Germany and he made a couple games and he made it since he was young as well.
And he is not like a big guy, but he can live just from his games and he has

(51:09):
pulled the community around his games.
And he's not like a big guy, but he can live just from his games and he has pulled the community around his games.
He's like some 2D multiplayer tank shooter, like Wolf Tanks, but different.
But he can live off of that without being a big guy.

(51:30):
So I think there are a lot of people who live off of that.
If he can.
Yeah, you don't.
That's more interesting than I was going to say, that's more interesting than me,
because like it feels so scary to be like you have to have the giant boom explosion game.
Like is it the biggest thing ever?
It's nicer to be like, oh, you can release small projects and maybe a couple people follow you.
And like there's more of a steady growth there.
That's more interesting to me than just trying to win the lottery.

(51:52):
I feel, yeah, yeah, I feel like that is true that you there are a lot of those people.
I mean, obviously they have to exist, right?
Because there's these huge people.
So there's going to be some smaller people that can't survive.
But you just don't hear about them because they're not big, right?
Like by the definition of them, they're just like, yeah.
But I think that's also a good point.

(52:12):
Like it is much more viable than what it seems like.
You know, you just hear about these big guys and is like, oh, I have to do that.
But you don't think that's cool.
I like that. Yeah, definitely.
Well, if there's any last words, I think that kind of wraps up our talk about education.
And yeah, you could go to education if you want to work for the giant companies.

(52:33):
Otherwise, it seems like if you're going to do it on your own, you could save a lot of money.
I want to say to hiring managers, bro, there are people out there that can do this
shit that didn't go to college. Hire them, motherfucker.
True. Yeah. Yeah.
Aggressive. Yeah.
Hiring managers do that.
I think.
All right. Well, thank you.
You mentioned before.

(52:54):
Oh, OK. No, go ahead.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah. When I saw you in Henry before about this education, we have lots of education talks to seem like.
But I think you mentioned like my path was very like traditional.
And is that a good thing or a bad thing is a question?
I think you said it's fine.
Like it's not like bad that I'm doing a traditional path, you know, straight out of straight out of high school, uni job, hopefully.

(53:23):
Not it doesn't have to be in game there, but just a job.
And my question is, is that an outdated traditional or is that still going to be the tradition of tomorrow of the future?
I don't think that's a fair question, to be honest.
Because like I feel like different people have different opinions on how they prefer to learn.

(53:45):
Like because I don't like going to school.
I hate school.
I from a young age, I faked being sick, played hooky, did everything I could to ditch school.
And eventually when I got to high school, I was able to get a document from my from my doctor saying that it's OK for me to stay home from school.
I did everything in my power to stay home from school.
But other people don't don't work that way.

(54:07):
Some there's people who who need school, who who like they like they they don't learn outside of like that.
Like that very like assembly line curriculum, like they like that.
That's their style of learning.
And so to say that like, is it outdated?
It feels like it's excluding the people who who learn that way, who who who learn from teachers and things like that.

(54:29):
I wonder how you can get that.
Teachers and things like that, I wonder how true it is that I feel like you would imagine that most people learn that way.
But I feel like a lot of people are do learn through school, but it's not it's not like a perfect solution for them.
Right.
They sort of have to like fit fit themselves into that mold.

(54:50):
But I do agree there are some people that like do really thrive in that environment.
But I feel like for me, I was like on the opposite spectrum where I was like, it was very different.
Yeah, it was very difficult for me personally.
So I never saw school like as as like a super valid way of learning because I just felt like I never got anything out of it.
But when I did on my own, it was like so much easier and I learned so much.

(55:14):
Yeah.
But I'm curious to see, I think if you I don't know, I don't want to like presuppose in it.
But if you were to like, if it was the tradition to like say, hey, you have 18 years to learn whatever you want and do that on your own.
I feel like there would be some people that fell right that need that structure.

(55:38):
But I wonder, I'm just curious, how many of those people that are fitting themselves into this traditional mold would thrive better in the self learning path?
You know, that's just a curious, it's just a curious question.
I feel like a flop, like I'm very traditional minded, I would flop if I'd had 18 years to myself for class tonight.

(55:59):
But it's weird because like four out of the five of us seem to be very anti-school, right?
Like the anti-school learning minded.
And I'm feeling like I'm not one out like being the traditional one.
So I think maybe.
I just don't like school.
Yeah, you like just didn't like school.
That's essentially what I mean.
Like not not in the school minds, basically.

(56:20):
But I wonder if that's because Game Dev is creative or if it's because just small sample size.
I wonder if creatives don't like college so much.
Go ahead, Maxi.
I think if you just take like five random people out of the world and then, you know, ask them,
which you rather learn on your own or in school, maybe that would be different.

(56:41):
Maybe that wouldn't be like five, four to one.
But in our, we're all Game Dev YouTubers, I think in this space, it makes sense.
And also if we would ask like just five random Game Devs, like who do anything in relation
to Game Devs, then it would also be different.

(57:02):
I think a lot of Game Devs probably become Game Devs through school.
But we just aren't.
But they are like working actual jobs and not doing a podcast like that.
And I'm with their actual job.
God damn it.
They're probably working right now.
Yeah, I feel like a big part of the reason I don't like school also is like just the

(57:25):
discrimination that I face personally.
I feel like there's a lot of teachers out there that suck and I feel you don't get that
when you're learning on your own.
True, actually.
True.
Yeah, you're always going to have good and bad teachers too.
Like, dude, I remember having, I went to community college and you have some teachers
that apparently didn't have to sign a no compete because some teachers were just at this community

(57:46):
college and others were from a bigger university and they would just like do a couple of classes
once in a while.
And those teachers were so fucking good.
Holy shit.
Like it was just the way they had their whole curriculum and everything they just felt
so put together.
And then I remember going to like an art class with a, we have a nickname for him.
But anyway, this one teacher, Professor Hogi, everyone used to call him.
And he literally brought up, this is years ago, he brought up lynda.com and he was just
going through that website.

(58:07):
And I was like, why are we doing here?
I'm really so frustrated being like, are you fucking serious?
That was my entire college degree.
That's why I hated it.
Yeah, really?
Seriously?
That's why it's all fucking lame.
I spent way too much money.
I was about to spill the number.
Way too much money on YouTube and lynda.com.

(58:30):
Seriously.
I remember skipping classes.
I think I've said this before.
I skipped classes and I would hang out outside, but I would literally be like within earshot
of the class because I didn't want to go.
I wanted to just be working on stuff and have no one around me distract me.
No one looking at the stuff and working on it, especially if it was bad.
Like the art, if you're in the middle of drawing something.
So maybe that's me and I have anxiety for something like that.

(58:50):
But yeah, I actively, like even when I went to college, I was like, all I want to do is
be here on my own working.
And then when you stumble into game dev online and all the tutorial stuff, I was like, where
was this my whole life?
I should have been looking at this stuff instead of, you know, convincing myself that this
community college was going to teach me everything I wanted.
I remember one class I had was, this was with Professor Hogi, which is not his real
name.
He was something like that.

(59:11):
And he had like a video class and I just kept skipping every other class or every class
because I was so not into it.
But I was like, at the time I was filming and doing stuff for my YouTube channel that
was music and everything.
And remember he was like, all right, class, on this certain day we're going to go in and
we're going to work with green screens in the production room.
And I was so opposed to doing that, especially because you're going to go on the green, he

(59:31):
wanted everyone to stand in front of the green screen and do something.
It felt so uncomfortable, right?
You were going to do something, film it, and then you make your project with that.
You're filming it.
And it just felt like I was going to make an ass myself.
I just didn't want to do that.
So remember I skipped that day and then I went to Amazon and bought what Maxi has behind
him, like a green screen and hung it up in my wall.
And then I filmed myself playing because I had a YouTube where I'm playing guitar, right?
So I filmed myself doing that and I edited it all together, did that.

(59:54):
And remember his first reaction was like, so did you steal this?
And I was like, no, no, I just worked.
He's like, well, he didn't show up to class.
He accused me multiple times of stealing stuff.
And I felt like so, yeah, I felt so uncomfortable.
At the same time, it was better than going and the public aspect of learning is probably
the most frustrating.
The most I've skipped classes, but it's like, we're going to read out loud.
I'm like, that's the worst.
I don't want to do that.

(01:00:15):
Yeah.
I feel like I've had that experience so much where I've been accused of cheating or copying
other people's shit.
And I have had that conversation so many times where a teacher will pull me into class and
say like, you cheated.
We know.
Come on.
Come on.
Yeah.
I wrote this and you go, what?

(01:00:36):
No, I didn't.
What the fuck?
I have had actual, like, recruiter say that to me.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Did they accuse you of having AI?
No, no, they accused me of not forging my resume.
Oh, seriously?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like I just had like a super negative experience with school.
So I'm like super, like me personally, I just would not go.

(01:00:57):
Yeah.
Just like the discrimination.
It's, I think it kind of scarred me a little bit, you know?
I think so.
Yeah.
But it would scar me too.
Yeah.
That shit's tough.
Yeah.
Because it wasn't just like one, you know, one year.
It was like every single year I had multiple teachers, like, you know, costing me for something
I didn't do, you know?
For, hey, you're not, you're not supposed to be the smart.

(01:01:18):
You're, look at you, you know, you're Mexican.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
You know?
You know?
And that was it.
I don't know if it was a race thing, but it was something about me.
That's really shitty.
Yeah.
I'm sorry to hear that.
All right.
I'm sorry to say that.
I've only tried PopTimes already.
No, I only tried one time and I was like, I'll relax.
I need like a code word.

(01:01:39):
Super Spider-Man.
Yeah.
So yeah, the Spider-Man noise.
Anyway, guys, thank you so much for watching.
My name is MZF.
Thank you, Henry.
Thank you, Maxi.
Thank you, Kobe.
And of course, thank you, Comet for jumping on and listening.
Keith makes games.
Not Comet.
Keith makes games.
Yeah.
Do you want to shout out your channel?
Yeah.

(01:01:59):
You can call me Keith on the, on the podcast.
Thanks to Comet because no one knows who has Comet.
But my name is Keith makes games.
Keith makes games on YouTube.
All one word, I think so.
What's the story behind that, by the way?
Like what?
The name?
Yeah.
Why are you comment on Discord and why Keith makes games on YouTube?

(01:02:19):
Because Keith makes games came later and I thought that no one's going to watch a channel
just called Comet.
So, you know, Comet's just a screening I made when I was young and like I just, I just
kept it.
Gotcha.
But your real name is Keith.
Yeah.
My real name is Keith.
Funny enough, Adino asked me like, what's your real name?

(01:02:40):
I'm like Keith.
And he's like, wait, that's your real name?
Why would I like use some random ass name for it?
You just like Jim makes games.
We are not Jim.
Why would Jim makes he's making games?
Guys, I have a, I have a secret.
My name is actually not Henry.
I check this whole time.
My name is Sarah.

(01:03:01):
Good ass.
I never know where to, where not to believe Henry or whoever Henry is.
I never know.
Studio is.
All right.
Thank you guys for watching.
And that was a, that was a podcast.
There you go.
All righty.