Lootbox Ethics. Are Lootboxes Predatory? | Ep. 4

On this weeks episode of Overscoped, the guys talk about lootboxes and whether or not we would include lootboxes in our games.

We are joined by:

https://www.youtube.com/@mz_eth

https://www.youtube.com/@MaxyDev

https://www.youtube.com/@kobedev

https://www.youtube.com/@VerasStudios

Patreon: patreon.com/Overscoped

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Loot boxes, they've been around for a while now. This is so topical that it's already 10 years old.

(00:04):
How do we feel about loot boxes as indie game developers?
I- what's the definition of gamemode? Like, legally?
Question is, like, how ethical is that? Or is that okay? Right?
Doesn't it feel like all the problematic parts of games like elements,
game design that have gotten worse over the years and really have been bad for the mentality of gamers?
They all stem from RPGs!
I agree with Henry on this one. I think, Zef, you're completely wrong.

(00:26):
And you should reevaluate your life choices.
Loot boxes have that same addictive element of, like, getting something over the word for...
But I mean, so have games in general, this addictive element.
I think that's such bullshit that you're saying, oh, I would be able to do with that one.
But I mean, even if I wanted them to play the whole game, that wouldn't be predatory.
It's only predatory if I trick them into playing the whole game with some weird practice.

(00:51):
No, you're wrong! There is an obvious downside is that they don't get to experience the whole game.

(01:21):
Am I gonna be like, guys, that's a great point. And then I'm just looking at stuff.
I think so, yeah. At least I could do it before or do it completely after, you know?
I think I'm just gonna do it now. It'll be fine.
It's like when you do it and you go to sleep, it's like the idea, like, I can't look, I'm doing something.
I always do it before I go to bed. And I wake up and I check it and I get disappointed.

(01:44):
Do you ever wake up early because I'm ready to check that thing?
You're like, it's like 3am your time and you're like, this is...
No, no, no, no. It's not really on my mind.
Maybe rope-wise.
You should look at it.
Is that like a thing? Good though.
I would like just look at trending similar things and say that hashtags are bad so just copy it.
My understanding, and I could be completely wrong because we're all losers, I don't know how

(02:04):
any of this works. I don't think anyone really does, right? Everyone's just guessing.
I know how it works. You guys just never ask me. I know how it works.
Okay, well tell me how it works, you fucking smart guy.
Smart guy. Good one.
Yeah.
We got a long podcast ahead of us. There's no reason to get demonetized already.
I'm gonna say roguelike. All right, here's how I think it works. And this is all I think.

(02:26):
I think when you put hashtags in, it shows it to people that that's in their trending.
But if you put some hashtags that don't fit, I think it's a pretty fast way for it to be like...
We show it to people, they didn't like it, we stop showing it to people.
I think, but I could be wrong. Also, probably followers helps, I don't know.
Okay.
Yeah, you ready?
No, I need the top.
What are we talking about?
Good question.
All right, let's browse the topic list.

(02:50):
Bro, I'm gonna beat your ass. I'm gonna fucking find you.
And I'm gonna fuck you.
Why are you bringing out the bottom cap again?
Why are you recording?
I started recording when we all said we were.
We're all recording?
Yeah.
I'm recording.
Okay, what's up? Welcome to the Overscope podcast. My name is MZ underscore F.
I have Henry, aka Vera Studios.

(03:11):
Hello.
Kobe, Kobe Dev on YouTube.
What's up?
And Maxi, Maxi Dev on YouTube.
Hello.
What's going on, guys? Tell me something fun and interesting.
Lootboxes.
We can jump into it. Lootboxes.
They've been around for a while now.
This is so topical that it's already 10 years old.
That's a lot similar to gambling.
You spend your money, you get a little fake doll or toy or pair of pants or whatever,

(03:32):
and you feel good about yourself.
Are they morally good, morally neutral, good, bad for the gaming industry?
How do we feel about lootboxes as indie game developers?
Maxi.
Well, I like money.
It was a great episode, guys.
So tomorrow, if you want to be there.
I like money. Me too.
No, I like...

(03:53):
Well, I like money.
I don't think that lootboxes that you pay for is a good thing to have in a game.
I wouldn't put that into a game.
Don't quote me on that if I'd ever do it in the future.
Is it unethical?
Let's say there was a lootbox game where you're just motivated to play the game more and more and more.
Because aren't there people that like, they'll play a game forever
and they feel like their life is slipping away.
But these games are designed to kind of do that to you.

(04:14):
Not just these games, all games.
So as lootboxes, another level above that, even if they aren't paid for,
where it's just like, oh man, you get in that grind
and you haven't seen daylight in a couple weeks.
So you said you're fine with them as long as you don't pay.
So I'm thinking, would you be fine?
Is there no level of manipulation?
I don't think I played a game where that's the case.

(04:35):
When I think of unpaid lootboxes that you can only buy with in-game currency,
then I think of Rainbow Six Siege.
They have alpha packs that you can open and you can get skins.
But you only get them through playing.
You can't buy them with real money.
I don't think they make you play the game more, maybe a little bit more.

(04:55):
But it's not like they are the thing that makes you.
I don't think they make the game worse and I don't think they make my experience worse or something.
I think they're just a way to...
That's a good question actually.
The question is if that's bad or if that makes me play more.
As a game developer, would you shy away from it at all?
And then we could talk as a game player how you feel about it.
Because there's two experiences.

(05:15):
Sometimes we'll feel a certain way about a thing and then we realize that as a game player,
we don't care.
We talk about that with creative integrity and art.
It's like as a game player, I don't care.
So why as a creator are you so worried?
But so about lootboxes, as a game creator, does it make you feel like scummy to put them in,
even if they are free?
They're free, no.
It's the same thing as having a random loot drop, right?

(05:36):
That's true, yeah.
Have an MMO and you kill monsters and they have a chance of dropping something good or something bad.
Then that's essentially an unpaid loot box.
I don't think that's true.
I feel like you can say that the outcome is the same, but that's not.
If that is what all it was, then we would just have loot drops on the enemies, right?

(05:58):
But the experience of going and collecting this randomized thing and then opening it
is a different experience, right?
So that's going to be separate from the player.
You could say that the outcome is different, but I think the point is that when you have that experience,
you do create sort of what is it called?

(06:20):
Like a risk reward?
Not a risk reward.
It's like a different mechanic that you're adding in.
You're adding in a gambling mechanic, basically.
Even though you're not putting in any money, what's the definition of gambling?
Like legally.
It's supposed to be like...
In the English dictionary.
You don't get anything in return for the money that you put in, right?

(06:46):
So loot boxes are sort of on the fringe of that because even if you don't get an item that you want,
you still get in-game currency, so it's still technically not gambling because of that reason,
right?
So gamble verb is in the Oxford dictionary defined as to play games of chance for money

(07:06):
and then semicolon bet, basically.
That's...
Yeah.
I'm the parts and horse, I have the same thing.
But number two, Kobe, if you want to read that one.
No, you can read that one because I did not get a number two.
Number two says take risky action and in Australia they probably block this because
they don't want to give you the truth, okay?

(07:26):
But in the Oxford dictionary up here, we have take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
So that kind of fits what Henry's talking about where it's like,
I don't know, you're just hoping you win big money, you know, you're not putting in money,
you're not losing actual money, but you're trying to have a big win out of something.
So that is if you put in in-game money for an in-game loot box, right?

(07:48):
Like if you...
Well, I think legally, I guess I kind of strayed away from that part.
If we just want to focus like outside of the money aspect, like it's still like putting...
Or even just the act of collecting a loot box like in Rainbow,
you just like have to play the game, right?
To collect it.
So you just play the game and you have this loot box.

(08:09):
It is so separated from the experience of actually playing the game,
which is what enemy drops would be, that it creates a new experience for the player.
And I think that experience is seen as predatory, right?
Because it adds a new incentive for the player to continue playing.
Because the reward isn't killing an enemy in-game,
the reward is keep playing more games and then you'll get more loot boxes.

(08:33):
So the incentive is different.
So it's different from a drop mechanically?
Yeah, it's different from a drop mechanically.
And I feel like the question is like how ethical is that?
Or is that okay?
Right?
That's what Zeth was asking.
Here's what I would say.
It feels scummy.
There's like these...
I mean, okay, inherently these are going to be with money,
because I think it's like an EA, not a TED talk, but the whatever, the video game talk.

(08:55):
And it feels kind of scummy when developers are like,
we maximize to get our players to play for longer.
We maximize for them to spend as much money.
And then it's hard not to walk away from those talks going like,
how much game development are we doing?
And how much like mind fucking are we doing to young children who are just like,
not okay with the ed?
They're just looking at a screen with bright lights on it,
and we're just trying to like zap their energy and their time away from them.
That's the thing that kind of, I think seems problematic,

(09:15):
even when money's not involved.
When money's involved, I think it's undeniable.
Like it's, it is gambling.
I think it's just gambling.
I'm okay with gambling in games,
but you probably should be over whatever the age to legally gamble.
But we shouldn't call it like, it's just loot boxes when you're spending real money to get,
you know, prizes, right?
It's kind of what it is.
It's gambling, except you can't win.

(09:36):
Well, yeah, there's like some caveats like doesn't CS have like you can win knives
and you can sell though.
I don't know.
Oh yeah.
But even without that, even with your money just always being gone,
I still think it's gambling.
I mean, it fits all the definitions that we see here.
It's like you're spending money on a thing
and you're hoping to get something of value
and you're not, and you're not guaranteed that chance.
Yeah.
I think, I think that's an interesting point about the,

(09:59):
like your conditioning kids or younger people who don't have access to that to sort of,
sorry, be in that mindset of like, hey, I'm about to risk,
like even if it's through gameplay,
I'm about to risk basically you're trading your time instead of money, right?
You're trading games.

(10:21):
It's time based money, right?
Well, and then in the mobile arena,
you're putting ads in front of the screen of the child or whoever has the phone.
So like in a way you are like farming them for content.
You're just trying to keep them for longer.
Yeah.
I want to move away from like the money aspect just because like I think the issue still persists
even if there is no money involved because like I said,
I said, what Maxi kind of gave a look when I said you give your spending time,

(10:48):
you gave your giving your exchanging time for loot boxes.
I want there to be like a stat of how many people just watch the podcast
versus just listen to the podcast and Maxi like, I'm giving looks.
It's like, no.
Yeah, you're going to never write to your looks.
Yeah.
I'm currently giving a look listeners.
You're missing out if you're not on the YouTube right now.
When did I give a look when I said that you're exchanging time for,

(11:10):
for loot boxes?
Exchange time.
Because I'm like thinking about it because if you play Rainbow normally,
you still get the alpha packs.
Right.
And it's not like, you know, next game I'm going to get it or if I win next game,
I'm glad it's like next game I could potentially get it if I win.

(11:33):
Add another adding in another layer of abstraction in the gambling.
Yeah, but I wouldn't say it's gambling.
I mean, okay, I can, there is an in game currency called renown that you can only
get by playing as well, which you can use to buy alpha packs.
In this case, I think I can agree that it's that it goes in the direction of gambling.

(11:59):
But if you just play and you get alpha packs and you open the alpha packs
and then you got random skin,
I don't think people would call this gambling.
Right.
I wouldn't.
Not like, instead of gambling with like real money, you're gambling with fake money,
right?
And it takes, I mean, you're not time to get this fake money.

(12:21):
I mean, you're getting alpha packs, which you have to spend time to get.
That's true.
Yeah, exactly.
But if you, but, but, but you get this alpha pack, no matter what.
And if you open it, it's not like you're going to get something for not opening it.
So as long as you can do something else with it instead of opening it.

(12:43):
So just get it.
And you can get it open.
So you just like, you just get these coins by just playing the game,
like as you would normally, and then the alpha packs kind of just off the side.
You're not really thinking about it.
Is that like, so, so, so the way the system works in rainbow is you play matches and if,

(13:04):
if you finish the match and you win, you get the chance for an alpha pack and the chance,
like, you know, you start with 2% chance.
And if you, the more measurements you play, the higher chance that the higher the chance gets.
And if you win, then you always, you know, the wheel spins and you either get an alpha pack
or you don't, but you cannot stop.

(13:25):
You can't, you can't stop this from happening as a player.
So you kind of like opt out of alpha packs or whatever, but you could just not open the alpha
packs.
Yeah.
Then you get the alpha packs and you just open them.
And you can also buy alpha packs for redone, which is also a currency you get only by playing.
So what I'm saying is you're basically describing a roulette wheel.

(13:48):
You get a roulette wheel that automatically spends after you play a game,
depending on whether you win or not.
But if you play a game, it increases your chances of the roulette wheel, regardless,
regardless of whether you win.
Yeah.
Regardless of whether you win.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you have this layer of the wheel that increases your chances, the more games you play,

(14:10):
the more time you put into it.
And I would disagree with you saying maybe that's your experience that it's like secondary
and you don't really think about it, but that is definitely what you're going to do.
Definitely not the experience of everybody or else nobody would really be up in arms about it.
Right.
Everybody would be like, oh, who cares?
It's just like a secondary feature.
Like the experience of somebody looking at a skin.

(14:34):
I think it happened to you too.
What was that black eye skin?
Right.
These these skins, there are skins in the game that are really like a sought after.
Right.
So people will play, people will play going like, oh, let me just play a few more games
so I can see if I can spend this roulette wheel to see if I can get this pack to see if I can get

(14:54):
in the pack, the percentage chance of getting this one skin.
And in that way, I feel like there's a lot of people out there who are actively thinking
about exchanging their time for this valuable skin that people want.
Here's another thing to all right.
Loop boxes.
First off, there's a couple of things here.
One I want to point out real quick, because I think it connects to this.
There are really like two types of loop boxes.

(15:16):
Right.
It's not all actually all happening at random.
Um, that would be like the old school loop boxes.
That's like video games.
When I grew up in like the early 2000s, a lot of RPGs had like, uh, it wouldn't be
loot boxes, but say like a good weapon would drop and we just drop it like randomly.
There was like a percent chance for it to drop.
The percent would be very, very low.
Right.
But nowadays what we have is we have certain things.
There's there's a term for in gotcha games, but I don't play enough to know it.
But basically it's like when you bought them out, if you lose for long enough in any of these

(15:38):
loot box games nowadays, it just has a set number of like you've opened this many and it's like,
boom, here's your thing that you deserve.
And the whole point there is to keep you playing the game. And I think my understanding is that's
incredibly effective.
Like it makes people want to play your game way longer because we can't handle the randomness
of like getting two legendaries back to back, but our brain is like super tapped into the dopamine
receptor of getting a legendary and having a little bit of a pause feeling like it's not

(15:59):
coming back and oh my God, there it is again.
And then we're back in and it fucking rags you back.
Like it is this ultra effective way to mind fuck yourself.
But there's more.
Yeah.
I think I think yeah.
No, no, no, I think it's it's the same with like free free ones because in some in some
settings you actually sell if you get something valuable, you can sell it for real life money.

(16:21):
So like there is a reward and then people tend to think okay, so there's a reward in this
an actual like tangible reward I can do.
I'm going to put even more time into it.
And instead of taking their time and doing something else like working a job and getting
actual money, I would spend it doing this.
I mean, this is not everyone of course, there's people who aren't like losers and getting

(16:45):
blizzards degenerates, but like those are customers.
There's a customer's my bad.
I'm not getting hired at EA, I guess.
Yeah, yeah.
Get out of your college in the real world working like us, right?
Making your gotcha games in the real world.
Yeah, sure, sure.
I want to say this though doesn't it feel like all the problematic parts of games like elements

(17:05):
of game design that have gotten worse over the years and really have been bad for the
mentality of gamers, they all stem from RPGs.
Like how is it that that one genre encapsulates so many between like grinding out levels, grinding
out items, loot boxes, all this stuff is tied to like yeah, if you just have a character
and that character is persistent, you're going to throw away your whole life to live
an EverQuest for 14 hours.
Like it's literally like it's so funny how many problems stem from RPGs, but I love them.

(17:27):
They're like my favorite genre.
I feel like this one in particular, loot boxes, aren't really RPGs, right?
That didn't come from RPGs.
That's just to come full circle.
I think that's a weapon drop.
That's kind of what it is, but we've in Diablo.
What would happen is you drop a weapon and it'd be unidentified and what happened is
you'd go back to the town and identify it.
You're opening the loot box.
You're like, I don't know what this is.
Oh my God, I hope this is what literally this would be like a really famous thing that

(17:48):
happened in that game.
And I feel like ever since then it's just gotten how much more anticipation can we put
on the box like opening and there's an animation and sound effects and there's a guy going like
legendary and you're like, oh my God, he's busting out.
I would have to find.
Yeah, I feel like the differences at the layer of abstraction makes it so...
I don't know how you feel about it now, Maxi, but I feel like you were like,

(18:11):
what are your thoughts on it now?
It's just...
Yeah, it's just Rammus, but it's like delay Rammus, so you have this anticipation that is there.
But I wouldn't think, I don't think it's problematic.
I mean, I know people who play Rainbow maybe a little bit longer just to, you know,
they say, okay, I'll play until I get another alpha pack or something, but it's not like

(18:34):
they do it and then they actually expect to get like a black eyes.
Like, I think it's much too rare for that.
Like there is no cap like in 10 alpha packs, you're gonna get a black eyes.
No, it's just...
There's...
I've played this game for more than a thousand hours and I got one black eyes that I really wanted.

(18:56):
So Henry's just...
You played for a thousand hours to get the black eyes.
For the non viewers right now, Henry's looking at the camera.
But I didn't play the game because of the alpha packs.
See, Maxi just admitted.
Maxi admitted.
Now he doesn't even know he's getting dragged in.
I played for a thousand hours just to get the black eyes.
Exactly.
Just for ampersand black eyes.
I think, I don't know if you can say that nobody does that.

(19:19):
I feel like there are definitely people that do that, you know?
Like especially in Apex, you know,
especially in Apex has a similar thing where you get, what is it called?
You get loot boxes.
You get loot boxes but they have this thing...
The heirloom.
Heirloom, heirloom shards.
When in loot boxes, there's this like super rare chance of getting heirloom shards

(19:41):
and people are always like trying to go for that, you know?
I think I had over a thousand hours I never had one heirloom.
I used to play the game every fucking day.
But yeah, so that isn't the same as like a guaranteed thing to go off.
But I think in a lot of games there's like the guaranteed thing is getting a legendary
but there's good and bad legendaries.
So you're like, oh, I hope that I get a good one this time or whatever.

(20:01):
But yeah, these are different genres.
So different genres are going to handle loot boxes differently.
But it just seems like we're getting way better at what makes it good.
I mean, I'm not so sure we should be getting better at what makes it good.
If that makes any sense.
Getting better at making people addicted.
It is a weird place to be.
You know, as game developers, we're always trying to make the gamer like try to play our game for longer,
you know, whether that's like if we're if we're like play testing, we we try to

(20:24):
change our game so they enjoy the game more so they will can continue playing it.
Yeah.
There's some copar up that.
But yeah, fundamentally, that is true.
Yeah. Why what makes the loot box idea so much worse than like the like level design,
which is built for ultimately like the same reason.

(20:45):
The level design, you know, you're getting a certain payout at a certain thing.
And you can even calculate a lot of times how many each enemy is killing.
And you're like, I can see this progression.
The loot box thing is hoping you're hoping you get the thing that you want.
But more importantly, there's just this stigma with gambling because I think like I said before,
I think loot boxes are gambling and there's a stigma there and people think they have a
principal position on gambling when typically they don't.

(21:07):
Yeah, typically they don't.
It's just like a battleground for people to have like their opinions,
especially when it comes to like Twitch streamers that are playing there,
literally gambling live on stream.
And it's just like, oh, I don't like that guy.
And there's this level of like sort of inherited beliefs.
It's like, oh, I don't like gambling because someone I said, I watched said gambling is bad.
So I think all loot boxes are bad.
And then you get to rope in the whole EA stuff where it's like EA's evil,

(21:28):
Activision, Bobby Coddy.
And you get to just put a nice bow on it and go, all that's evil.
And then you get to even go like this.
Games used to be so great when I was a kid, like really, were they great when you were
fucking playing Soul Reaver, walk around in circles because you can figure out where the door was?
Like games were way worse.
Let's be honest, they were worse.
They were smaller.
Henry's making faces.
Wait, Soul Reaper, what the fuck is that?
I'm just throwing that to old lez me.

(21:50):
Because I remember going to cheat code sensuals, trying to walk throughs, all right?
That shit sucked.
All right.
But no, people don't remember that stuff.
They just think that they have nostalgia trips like I do.
But games are better now, even if they are more addictive.
Just it's like a positive and a negative that comes with that.
Where do we draw the line?
Like loot box, what becomes a loot box and what isn't, right?

(22:11):
Is there a solid line or is it more like a gray area?
Like is it a loot box if you're not paying money for it?
Or is it a loot box if it's not completely random?
So, where does that line get drawn?
Or like, yeah.
I think loot drops is more of an interesting way to evaluate it.
Because you're right, because at some point it is like in Diablo II identifying an item.

(22:34):
It is like the same thing.
So what's more important is like at what point is loot dropping,
turning into like the game versus the, because there is a separate thing where now it exists
in a separate menu.
It has its own like horse and pony show.
Like you're putting so much attention on it.
I think that's more thing.
The idea of calling it a loot box or not, I think is almost irrelevant, right?
The idea is that you're hoping you get a really nice item and you're playing over and over and over again

(22:55):
to kind of get it.
And then there's, and then I think an important part of it is that there's that sense of like,
I have it and I don't know what it is yet.
I think those elements have to be there for a little bit.
I don't know if that's 100% true.
I think in order for something to be a loot box, it sort of has to be separated from the
gameplay experience because I was, I thought the thing that you said was interesting about
like getting a unidentified object or whatever.

(23:18):
Yeah.
Because Destiny had that too with the engrams.
Yeah.
Right.
And I feel like engrams in Destiny 2 were, I didn't really view that as a loot box.
I don't know if that's because you got it in game.
I think I disagree.
I think it has to be separated from the gameplay in order to be a loot box.

(23:38):
I think that's what I would say.
Yeah.
Because like at what point does it become like something that you would go out of your way
to restart the mission over and over again to just get to this one point where you pick up some loot
and then like just think about it as your traditional loot box where you just go in the
menu and you've got some credits or something and you have to pay for it.
Right.
Yeah.
So like what point does it become just random chance that you have like a randomizing game

(24:02):
and then like an actual loot box.
So like I agree with Henry on this one.
I think, Seth, you're completely wrong and you should reevaluate your life choices.
Kobe, here's what really happened.
Kobe's like, I'm not in the intro enough.
I'm trying to give out some good fucking lines with the intro.
I think I agree with Henry too.
I think I was wrong.
No, I don't know.
There's actually one thing that I think what you're saying, Henry, makes more sense and is more,

(24:26):
is that an aspect that we're forgetting is that it seems like in loot boxes,
the reason why you separate it out and you have it separate than your gameplay a lot
and why it can be effective that way is because now, motherfucker, you get to go,
hey, you haven't opened our game in a while and there's a notification counter of all those
loot boxes and they're just getting big.
And like that does feel like, what is the game now?
Like, what are you doing?
You're just like, you're notifying me, my phone's lighting up or whatever.

(24:46):
It's like, yeah, it feels like we're getting further and further away from the game and
more of like this social interaction of like, we know that you like it when there's that red
dot like on disk or whatever, you know, when there's any notification thing,
we're just playing off of that and just trying to drag you back in and what feels like an
apharius way.
So yeah, you're probably right.
It probably, for me, I don't give a fuck if there's items to identify,
but I think it's different when there's a number of boxes that's collecting.

(25:08):
It just feels like more of a focus for your game.
Like a pillar.
One of my pillars is loot boxes.
It almost feels like it.
Yeah, I feel like that was a, I didn't, yeah, yeah.
Whenever you separate that out, yeah, that's true.
You can then add in more opportunities, like separate it from the gameplay to
entice your players to come in.
Yeah, I agree.
Cut out my bad take and then I'll be like, we all agree with Henry.

(25:32):
Can't look dumb in the first five episodes.
God damn.
Henry, are you putting loot boxes in a game?
If you had a good, that's not so mean.
If you had a game coming out on Steam and you're like,
someone pitched me on the loot boxes, they're going to code it all in and it's going to fit.
It's all going to make sense for the theme and the lore of the story.
And it is going to be separate.
It's not going to be like identified items.
It's going to be loot boxes.

(25:53):
Would you put that in your game?
If someone said it's going to, you know, it'll be the difference between you
doing this full time and doing this as a hobby.
I feel like I've been very, or I feel like I sound very against new loot boxes, but
I kind of like I like.

(26:13):
Yeah.
As soon as you mentioned you get some money, it's like, I mean, I mean, I don't care.
I mean, I, I, I think loot boxes are fun.
And I feel like there's a lot of things that you can do that are predatory around it, like,
like, especially in mobile games where you're like, oh, hey, here's your loot boxes and whatever.
But I think there's ways that you can design around that to make it less predatory and more

(26:37):
like acceptable to people.
So an idea that I had was this is an idea.
This is something that I want to implement in a game that I have out right now, the fruit game.
I have a fruit.
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my idea was you could have a shop that that is just filled with cosmetics.

(26:59):
And you can either buy a loot box or buy directly in the shop, you know.
So if you want to supersede the loot box experience entirely, you can do that or you
could just buy loot boxes.
And I feel like that solves a lot of the issues that people are looking for.
And it feels like at the same time, it feels like, man, this feels kind of,
I feel like there are still some problems with that.

(27:20):
But I feel like a lot of those problems are solved with having all the items freely available too.
Sort of. But you're losing all the fun in it too, right?
Because all the fun is like, I can't get this thing any other way.
This is how I have to get it.
And then when you finally do get it, you're paid off.
But if you could just a little bit, I think, I think a little bit.
But I think the benefit would be like if you had like common items that are like 10 bucks, you know,
not real 10 bucks, but like 10 bucks, berry bucks, berry bucks.

(27:45):
And then you have something that's like a hundred bucks.
And you could say, oh, a hundred berry bucks.
You could say, oh, loot boxes cost 10 bucks.
And you get an option, berry bucks to buy a loot box.
And it can have anything in the store.
There would still be reason for you to buy a loot box over buying it directly.
But if you've been playing long enough, it's like, bro, I just want this one thing.

(28:08):
Let me just go and buy it.
I feel like that's also like a great option.
But I don't know.
I think I agree that it sort of does take away a little bit of the fun.
Stuff that makes it problematic is also the stuff that makes it fun, which is the problem.
It's like, what's the fun in going to the casino and getting your monopoly money out and saying,

(28:29):
OK, I'll put $100 on red and said you could take out the $50,000 loan from the bank and put it all
number one.
And like, you're just having much more fun at the bank.
When you're just high risk, you know, so much.
You know, there's a really interesting stat about gamblers is like 99% of gamblers quit

(28:50):
right before they win big, right before they win big.
So if you're a gambler, I'm just saying 99% don't quit.
Don't quit before you win big.
Don't quit.
Also, I changed my mind.
Loot boxes are great.
And also you can have the same thing.
Loot boxes, but you would undermine the loot boxes because you're a soy loser who doesn't

(29:12):
want to commit to gamble.
I think I think you're right that there would there is some fun in having locked items.
So maybe I would have a couple locked items behind the boxes.
Maybe I would.
He's designing live.
I'm trying to think.
Because I feel like you're right.

(29:37):
But yes, clip that one.
I feel like the joy out of opening like a loot box and seeing one of these lock things.
I'm trying to think of is there a way that you can keep that same experience of having
something locked behind the loot box, but still make it not predatory.
And I'm trying to think like maybe like, you know, you're not going to be able to do that

(29:58):
really, like regardless of however many points like after 10 games, you get a point or whatever.
I don't think rainbows, this little boxes are predatory and everything's yeah.
Yeah.
I'll look because it's good that one up behind them.
You're saying so wait rainbow has loot boxes that aren't the alpha packs.

(30:19):
Are they the same thing or different things?
I don't know about their different.
I don't play their batteries.
I don't understand it, but there are also other packs.
I'm not sure.
Real box talking about alpha packs.
I don't think they're predatory.
But the other ones are.
Yeah, no, I disagree.

(30:41):
You're just wrong.
What makes the other ones more predatory than alpha packs?
I don't know if the other ones are more.
I opened two of them and I didn't know how I got them.
Did you say they were predatory or did you say they're not predatory?
I don't know.
I opened two of them and I don't know how to get them.

(31:05):
I don't know if you can buy them.
I don't know if how they work, but I don't think I wouldn't call them.
Maxi, what about you?
Have you ever added loot boxes to your game?
No paid ones, but unpaid ones maybe.
If they're fine, Maxi, why not paid?
Because they're gambling, right?
But if they're not paid, I don't think that's...

(31:31):
It's not the same thing I seriously think.
I think if we go back to real quick, I don't know if I'll put in the steam game.
Just because I feel like you pay for a game like you should have the complete game.
You should be able to unlock things through like progress, skill based stuff.
Or it's both, where it's like you can pay for the loot box that's for cosmetics,

(31:53):
or you could unlock the loot box that's for cosmetics.
As soon as you start adding stuff in...
Here's the only way I add loot boxes to a game is where it improves the experience for the player.
If it's an actual fun part and not just there to be predatory or to make them...

(32:17):
It's just to make the game more fun.
Then I do it.
I think the problem is that just by the nature of the loot box, what Zeth said,
loot boxes are just predatory.
You can try to design around it, but it destroys a little bit like the core essence of what a loot box is.

(32:41):
I think you can make it predatory, but I think loot boxes,
as a concept itself, isn't predatory as a default.
I don't agree with that. I feel like it's like streaming.
I feel like streaming is like a predatory practice.
Loot boxes is like an inherently predatory...
Yeah.

(33:02):
You mean, twist streaming?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Streaming... I don't know if you get into that, but...
I mean, there are things... It's like a drug dealer, right?
Something that we can all agree is really predatory.
Drugs are fun and good because they make you feel happy and people get hooked on drugs.

(33:24):
Drugs are good, all right. Drugs are fun and good because they make you feel happy.
Oh yeah, that's okay.
Drugs are good and fun because they make you feel happy,
and people who sell them are by nature predatory because it has this addictive element to it, right?
And I feel like loot boxes have that same addictive element of getting something a reward for...

(33:48):
But I mean, so have games in general, this addictive element.
It goes back to RBGs.
That's just... I guess games.
Then I don't know. Don't play a game any better.
I think you could trap... There's some truth to that, yeah.
No, I think you're right. I think that is also true.
Like you could... I feel like you got that as a...

(34:12):
Oh, gotcha. No, but games are also predatory just by the nature of games.
Games are trying to make you spend time for an extended period of time.
Yeah, it feels like the cope we do too. I'll go ahead.
I mean, then so are films or YouTube videos. Since everything, right?
People talk about that shit all the time. People talk about how like, oh, this video is clickbait-y,

(34:36):
and actually it wasn't worth the time that I spent. People talk about Doomscrolling, like on TikTok,
going like, oh, I wasted my time watching these videos.
Yeah, that's so much every...
Not every review, not every film, not every whatever is predatory just because of that.
I think a lot of content, especially short film, is very predatory.

(34:57):
You hook the viewer in and get them on the app as long as possible.
And the reason for that is, I guess creators, you want that because your video will get shown to more people
and you get more outreach and the actual platform wants that because they can show more advertisements
and then make more money. It's all there for like a reason.
But I think just going back to the topic that we're going to say is like, does loot boxes,

(35:22):
doesn't matter what type of game they're in.
Before we get too far, I want to comment on that, because I'm sorry to cut you off on that,
because it feels like you're re-sendering, but on that little tangent.
So it seems what we're saying is that game design in general or game development is really predatory in nature.
There's a lot of practices, whether or not they're about loot boxes, that are geared towards getting your player to replay the game.
Here's the shining beacon of hope that exists through all of that, is that all of the manipulation stuff,

(35:46):
the counter to those arguments that ideally when we started doing any of this in the genre started,
movies, games, TV shows, and other stuff. It was about making cool content.
It was about making art, right? So we originally started as artists who want to make really cool things
and then you start to make a little bit of money and now they start chasing the wrong thing.
Now it's like, okay, how do I get my person to play my game instead of being like,
how do I make a game that I thought was fucking cool?

(36:08):
Because that should have been the point to begin with, right?
Yeah, I also wouldn't say that if I make a game, the goal is that people play it as much as possible.
I don't think that's a goal for most games.
What's the goal? What's your goal?
The goal is to make a good game so the player has a good experience, right?
And I think it's good to have an end of a game. My game had a start, a middle, a finish,

(36:30):
and you had a cool experience. You didn't want to refund it.
I mean, I did my thing and they would move on to my next game. It doesn't have to be a forever project.
Same as films. Most films don't try to manipulate you to...
Re-watch it?
Yeah, re-watch it.
Or buy four sequels. The analogy would be,
you just don't want people getting up and leaving midway through your film.

(36:52):
I don't want people getting up and leaving midway through my game and never finishing it, right?
I don't want a four-hour game where they got 30 minutes in and was like, what?
Well, Maxi didn't say that, right?
Maxi said that to make a good game for people to have fun, right? That's the goal.
I mean, yeah. And they will stop playing the game halfway through when they don't have fun, right?
So let me ask you a question. What if you make your game, a bunch of people buy it,

(37:16):
and everybody has the same experience of like, this game is super fun.
I played the first 10 minutes of it. I haven't touched it since, but that first 10 minutes was really fun.
I don't plan on going back on it though. How would you do that?
I mean, if it doesn't give you a lasting impression, and you know, it's a fun game.
The first 10 minutes were fun, but I don't plan on going back. I don't think that's possible.

(37:38):
They're not asking for a refund. They're not asking for anything.
They said, this 10 minutes of gameplay, this one level was really good in particular.
So I think this one 10 minutes was enough for me.
I guess that's fine for me if they don't...
Like, if you play the first 10 minutes of the game, then you think that's great, and I don't need more.
I guess whatever. Why would I care?

(38:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Like, I already got some money.
I would care, but I don't think this premise exists.
I don't think there's any game where it was so much fun that I'm leaving a good review saying it was amazing,
but I'm never coming back to it for reasons like...
It is hypothetical.
Yeah, which I'll engage with, but I need some reasoning why people would walk away.
Because my reaction would be, I want to fix that.

(38:24):
I think that's true for all of us. I think we're lying to ourselves.
We wouldn't say we want to fix the idea that a player stopped playing before finishing our game for some reason.
I want to figure out that reason and fix it.
But if that was unfixable for something, or it was just inherent to the process of the game I made,
and the reason this mechanic was just fun for 10 minutes and they never wanted to play it,
then at least it's like, hey, I made something fun and people are resoundingly positive about it.
There is an upside to that. It's just hard to imagine.

(38:47):
It's hard to imagine.
Well, I just want to hit on something real quick that Maxi said is like,
why would I care? I already got the money.
I thought the goal was for people to have fun, right?
Yeah, when they had fun, that goal was pretty good as well.
Dang.
It's not like, you know, I don't have any downsides from that.
It's not like...
No, you're wrong. There is an obvious downside is that they don't get to experience the whole game.

(39:13):
Like, how... I think that's such bullshit that you're saying, oh, I would be able to do that.
But I mean, even if I wanted them to play the whole game, that wouldn't be predatory.
It's only predatory if I trick them into playing the whole game with some weird practice.
That's like, you know, if I would pretend that they would get their money back if they finished the game or something,

(39:38):
that would be predatory. Right?
I was trying to be in the intro. Sorry.
What a phony ass loser.
No, I think Henry was making some good points there.
I don't know. There's something to be said.
Like, if you're an artist and you're creating something, you want people to see it.
So the idea that you made hours of a game and people only saw 10 minutes,
like, that is sad and that's not the point.
Even if you made the money, even if everything went well for you,

(40:01):
if you're making art that no one's seeing, something is going poorly.
Well, that's a weird hypothetical.
He was saying it is not going poorly, but they still don't want to come back.
So, you know...
What if it's that experience of, this game is kind of bad.
There's so much like technical debt, like the finals, right?
You have moments of the finals that you enjoy, right?

(40:24):
Okay, yeah, to be fair.
But you don't want to go back to that game because there's so many other issues,
technical issues that are with the game.
So, but I think this is not a perfect one-to-one because I feel like you would still say that the finals is a bad game.
But I feel like I feel the same thing that you're talking about,

(40:47):
where I enjoy the finals, but there are a lot of issues that keep happening.
So, I feel like that could be a similar example to something that's happening.
Like in your game, if it kept crashing or if all the other levels were too hard except for that one level,
but people went to that one level and go, like, oh, this is really fun.

(41:08):
I played it like 10 times this one level because it was so much fun,
but I don't like the rest of the game.
But, you know, it's still left off with a good experience.
What's the question?
Well, you're just saying, like, how would it be possible that that's the case,
that people only enjoyed this one section of the game, but not the entire game?

(41:30):
I mean, you said the first 10 minutes, right?
Like, they played for 10 minutes, they didn't touch it anymore,
but 10 minutes were great, but that was the hypothetical.
I think the answer is resounding that we'd want to fix it.
Yeah, now in that scenario where, you know, there are technical issues,
whether they're coming back, then obviously that's bad.

(41:51):
We don't want this to happen.
You almost feel like you're on borrowed time, too.
Meaning that, like, if you have a game that's really cool, but there's technical issues,
it feels like your audience will be, like, okay with that, up to a point.
And then they're going to go, like, dude, these guys suck.
They can't even fix their fucking game.
And then people turn on you and it feels like it's bad.
I know that I'm making it too real and you're trying to do something a little more hypothetical,
but I think if we're keeping it hypothetical, if people aren't seeing your content,
the goal inherently should be to fix it so that they do.

(42:14):
The problem also is that every little thing we do is manipulating our players,
and it's just what level manipulation feels justified and okay,
and what level feels, like, scummy.
And there really is no clear thing.
I think for me, I probably wouldn't put loot boxes in my game,
but not because I think they're bad or evil or anything like that.
I just think they kind of feel a little cheesy.
I don't know, they kind of feel a little played out now.

(42:35):
The only way I would do it is if it was as a meme for, like, a little small section as, like, a secret thing,
but not, like, a pillar of game design.
It almost feels like we've, they've run their course.
We know where they fit. We know when they aren't, when they're working properly as a game, as a game pillar, game design pillar.
But then elsewhere, I feel like they can be shoehorned pretty quickly.
And if, if that's how you're designing your game for your reward system,

(42:59):
I would question if you started there, if starting in a different place first,
and then being like, if nothing else worked, I guess try loot boxes,
but it seems like you can do way more fun engaging things than having people sort of,
it also makes, it's like in a horror movie when we talk about, you think about how they filmed it.
So when you see a loot box, you start to think less about the, engage the immersiveness of the,
immersiveness of the game and more now, like, it's very gamified. I don't know.

(43:22):
Yeah, I feel like, I don't know if I agree with that. I think just loot boxes are fun.
I just like opening the boxes. I kind of want to have that experience in the game.
You're just addicted.
You have a problem, Henry. This is why we did the podcast, it's intervention here.
You owe me $3,000. You said you'd put them all in the loot boxes.

(43:45):
Like the fruit game, I'm, because I actually want to put in the fruit game.
I want to see you do that too, because I would like to see if I'm just wrong, if it's just an awesome thing.
Yeah, well, I think something that you said was like, well, if that's like your main incentive,
that wouldn't be the main incentive, but it would be like a very nice add-on on top of it, right?
Because I feel like you've been really sucked into that game.

(44:07):
Would it be any better or worse than unlocking things? Meaning like you had levels of different sizes,
and then as you beat them or got a certain score on them, you unlock different things.
Would that be a worse engagement than just...
I don't think it would be as fun. I don't know if that's worse or not, but I don't know.
Alright, so I've got a question for you, Henry, as well.
Would you bet $1,000 that you're not addicted to gambling if you like loot boxes so much?

(44:33):
I don't know. What are the odds?
I'll just eat all for under.
Oh, do you get $10,000?
But in all seriousness, back to my original question before we got like sidelined by this,
does loot boxes have a place in some certain type of game, or is it like, okay, loot boxes can be okay in...

(44:58):
Oh, not okay, because I don't think they're really okay, but should we have loot boxes in only this certain type of game
and definitely not in this certain type of game, or is it just...
I think they're going to take me out of a story game 100%.
So the fruit game makes sense. I'm not taking...
There's no level of like, I'm in the fruit game, I am the man putting fruit.

(45:19):
It's like, no, I'm having fun with a little arcade game, and the loot box is not taking me out of that immersion.
But from, I'm imagining Billy, I'm sorry, Fargon Frontier, of having like a loot box show up.
He'd be like, what? Are you serious? I feel like that would take you way out of it.
So I think it fits better in arcadey games, games that are taking themselves less seriously.
Do we have to take into consideration the target audience as well, right?
So like, some arcadey games might be very colorful in that cartoony.

(45:43):
Only put loot boxes in games with kids, with rich parents. I think that would be my goal.
Yes, that happened to know their credit card information as well.
If there's any way to take the data and with like a colorful like little character,
like, hey, give me your credit card. And it's like, oh my God, I love this. It's linky. This guy is great.
Yeah, that would be fun.
That's so ethical, right?
Yeah, make it a horror game. Kids love that shit.

(46:05):
I feel like, yeah, I feel like it's interesting, or not interesting, but it's kind of like...
I feel like Henry just ulted before and now he's trying to regain energy for the more.
I think it's a good point that I feel like people, we as game developers should be more cognizant,
especially if we're targeting younger people, or like if that's like an audience that we know is being...

(46:32):
That would be interested in the game. Like Fortnite, right?
Fortnite.
They got in a lot of hot water because there was like, you know, you could buy V-Bucks so easily and, you know, there was like a whole loss of going on.
There was also a big drama with Rocket League, which is like, I guess the age range of that goes all the way from like really young,

(46:55):
because it's just a car soccer game, so it appeals to a lot of young people and older people as well.
And there's a big age range in that. They used to have loot boxes in that one as well that you could buy with actual like money.
You'd buy the actual in-game currency to open these.
But when Epic took over, actually removed them, because of that controversy to do with, you know, loot boxes,

(47:19):
and it was targeting young audiences as well, getting into the gambling side.
So I think they might have realized once Epic took over, like, okay, something's wrong here.
And if Epic's doing that, like, should we, as indie game developers, do that as well, not include loot boxes for games that target younger audiences?

(47:42):
I think obviously it's bad. Yeah, you shouldn't.
But...
Well, they're just one.
I can feel it coming.
I think it's... we have to differentiate between paid loot boxes and unpaid loot boxes.

(48:04):
Oh, paid is 100% worse.
Yeah, I mean, it's worse. I mean, I think paid is unethical.
Is the V-Box stuff like one step removed? You could pay for V-Box and then there are loot boxes, right?
You buy those with the V-Box? Is that what happens?
No, no.
I don't think it's Fortnite. No, they don't have it on Fortnite.
I know in Overwatch they did it for a long time. You would just get loot boxes and then you could pay real money for them, but you got them for free a lot of the times.

(48:29):
Yeah, that, bro, I was so hooked on that. I got so many loot boxes and then they took it away.
That's honestly 100% like I'm not joking. That was one of the reasons why I stopped playing Overwatch when Overwatch 2 came out, because they took away loot boxes.
They took away the loot boxes. Yeah, yeah.
Did you get... I got tons for free. I always felt like they did a good balance there.
Yeah, I got so many for free. I never...

(48:50):
Yeah, that's what I...
I never spent any single... Maybe it's only $5.
I think I remember one point when I let them get up to like 100 loot boxes and then the second game came out and I was like, wait what?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I opened them all up.
The evolution of the loot box, I mean, I don't know if you want to talk about this the other time we have, is the battle pass.
It feels like that was the evolution of being like, people don't like loot boxes, we're moving away from our game.

(49:13):
Instead, if you could just subscribe to our service and that way you can get this content and it kind of makes you keep playing for longer.
Guaranteed.
Yeah, where you move away from the gambling side and you sort of lock people in and sometimes you kind of hope that they forget that they're paying.
If some of them like you set it up like to, you know, annually take out money.
Yeah, I think I didn't fall for that recently.
Oh yeah?

(49:34):
I didn't fall for it.
Sounds like you fell for it, guys.
It just happened. I, you know, the finals has a battle pass, so I was like, oh, I, you know, I should just get it.
Kobe was supposed to get it with me.
Kobe was supposed to get it with me and then he ended up not.

(49:55):
I didn't because you know why my Steam credit card information was like out of date.
It wasn't my recent one.
So I was like, no, I can't be bothered putting my actual credit card.
But the value post clarity, post purchase clarity.
Yeah, I was like, I cleared up my mind cleared up.
I was like, oh my God, actually, like, no, that was going to be such a bad purchase.

(50:20):
And look at me now.
I like, I can't even play the finals because my computer isn't even good enough.
Like it's a gaming laptop and like what?
Wait, did that change?
Yeah, they kicked me out of it.
They kicked me out of the game that is free and cost me nothing to install.
But no, that maybe that's a topic for another day.

(50:41):
Like should games be more optimized instead of just relying on more.
That definitely is.
Performance specs.
I want to talk about that.
I think every game should be every game should be unoptimized and should only be available
to the highest end hardware.
The elite.
Yes.
And then we'll sit there in a pile of money.

(51:02):
Only.
I'm going to make a simple 2D platformer and I'm going to add in as much bloatware as
I can.
Yeah.
How many polygons are you going to put on those characters?
I'm going to make a square, a 2D square out of 2 million triangles.
Only the four richest kings can play these games.
They all play against each other.

(51:24):
Like wall loops in here.
The whole game is one fucking if statement.
It just keeps getting further and further down the line.
I think probably Battle Pass Stuff is another conversation that we had, but I will say there's
one thing to put a little bow on that is that I think battle passes are less exciting.
They solve the problem with Gamba, but then they just get more boring personally.

(51:48):
I just think they kind of seem like, and I don't think gamers really love them that much
either, but you do get to avoid all the controversy.
Yeah.
I feel.
Yeah.
Well, I'll tell him to Henry with that battle pass is that he bought the battle pass, which
is first of all money spent, but then he also because of the battle pass he justified
the time he doesn't work and instead plays the finals.

(52:12):
So he's like, well, I spent 10 bucks for this battle pass.
So I kind of have to play.
I don't really want to play, but I will play to finish a battle pass.
Yeah.
And they put the timer on it so you feel like you have to do it by a certain time.
Yeah, exactly.
The season is going to be over.
If to get the full benefit out of the $10, I have to keep playing.

(52:33):
Henry, you're very susceptible to these tricks for someone who's like, I'm going to use them.
I feel like they're getting used on you.
I feel like you're getting fucking taken to town here.
I think I'm very consistent saying I like using them and I enjoy using them and I would
use them in my game, but I'm not like blind to the, to the fact that they're pretty.
What's your, what's your credit score?
Tell me right now.

(52:54):
I'm just joking.
I don't want you getting scammed.
I don't want you.
Yeah.
No, no, but it's not super often that like I have like it just, you know, I'm like,
it's just something that I saw was like, we've been playing this game a lot.
I feel like I presented in the fact like, oh, I should, I want to get it, you know,
because whatever.
But I was like, we've been playing this game a lot and I was basically already done with

(53:15):
a battle pass, you know, I was like, it was almost towards the end and I was just like,
Oh, I got 10 bucks, you know, whatever.
By the way, does it change it at all?
Shut the fuck up.
Maxi, does it change it at all for loot boxes?
If the game was entirely free?
Yeah, 100%.
I don't think I would be in the loop box.
They're paid, I'm saying, right?
A entirely free game with paid loot boxes.

(53:36):
Because at that point it's like, well, if you play the game and don't buy a loot box
ever, you are sort of like not giving back to the developer.
But then if you do buy loot boxes, well, now you're getting, you know, you're getting
rolled by the, the Gamba.
Yeah, I think it was as well as just poetry.
Yeah, kind of is because it does.
You kind of feel like for buying the battle pass on a free game, which I know the battle
pass is not scammy, but let's just say for buying a battle pass on a free game, you
feel like you justify it because like, well, I do play this game a lot.

(53:57):
Those developers worked hard on it.
So does that kind of go the same way with loot boxes?
If it was a free game, it's like, well, I do play this game a lot.
You know, it's like an investment, like $60.
That's the price of a game.
Let me just buy that in loot boxes.
Like you almost feel yourself.
I feel like that's a strategy, right?
Like when you have your game for free, it by the nature of it being free opens it up
to a wider audience, right?

(54:18):
Yeah.
And usually people who, a lot of people who play free games are people who can't buy
a game, like kids, right?
Like for a parent to say, okay, kid, like here's a PlayStation.
I don't have any games for you though.
Like they're going to go on to the PlayStation, sorry, download free games.

(54:39):
And then they'll see that.
And I feel like that, it's a problem.
The loot boxing also plays into our culture way better because it is way more fun to
watch a supercut of your favorite streamer winning big, right?
Like, oh my God, they got like this.
And then you feel like, all right, let me buy a loot box.
All right.
And then of course you're not going to win.

(55:00):
Yeah.
100%.
It's like anything to do with the game thing really.
It's all, you know.
It's just funny how it all fits in our, it's so understandable why loot boxes got big
because it does fit, every piece fits perfectly with how games have come and gone.
Like, not gone, but how they've grown over the years.
Like between the Twitch streaming thing and RPGs blowing up, it's like all of it fits
so perfectly.
It's like, yeah, this is what does make sense.

(55:21):
Like, yeah, geez, it is really effective.
I'm going to buy a loot box.
And the folder under no pressure right there.
What about you that would you put a loop?
I feel like we talked about it.
You said not for a story game or a main game, but I'm super curious to know whether I'm

(55:42):
planning to do it.
I'm like actively planning to do it.
Right.
If the opportunity came for something, would you like, here's the thing.
I think I would, if I, if I wanted to do it, I don't think I want to, if I wanted to
do it though, I think I could take on the hate because I think you would get people that
or just like nonsense hating you for it.
And I don't think they'd have like their arguments grounded or have any idea.
I mean, you'd have to just fight randoms on the internet, but I'm saying for the most

(56:04):
part, I feel like I'd be okay taking on that battle.
I mean, if I had a game and it made sense to have loop boxes in as an indie game developer,
I feel like you're going to get hate and I feel like I'd be okay with it.
Like, yeah, fuck it.
Fuck you.
You don't know what you're talking about.
That being said, I don't have a game that makes sense for it.
So there's no point in doing it.
I would do it maybe as a meme, like I said, as a small little Easter egg or a joke.
Yeah, like something dumb and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(56:28):
Something people probably don't even know.
I would do that.
I would do that.
I would do that for that though.
You know, like an entire year to do an April Fool's joke though.
So, yeah, right?
It's another year of development.
And then it's like, it's just a joke.
Unless you want to buy a couple of loop boxes.
No.
Guys are just jokingly taking your credit card.
Like, oh, just joking.
Oh, well.
What was it?

(56:49):
What was it?
What was it?
So I'm saying I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it, but not because of moral stance or ethical
stance.
It's just because it doesn't make sense for the games that I like.
And that kind of comes back to what I was saying before.
It seems like when you start in any kind of creative endeavor, you have people want to
create art, then they find success, then people come in chasing that success and you sort
of lose what it all started for.
I'm trying my best to focus on the part where we're creating cool games that we would want

(57:13):
to play.
And the whole money thing, you think about it, but just trying to focus too much on it.
Yeah, and the hopes to make something cool.
That's like the main goal.
Here's a topic I do.
Maybe I shouldn't say this right now.
But the topic I deal with is games.
What?
Games, uh...

(57:34):
Games what?
Games we like to make versus games we want to make.
Because I feel like those don't line up for me.
Yeah, that's true actually.
No, that's not what games we want to make.
Games we like to make versus games we like to play.
Oh, okay.

(57:56):
I thought you said games we like to make versus games we want to make.
Oh, no.
Actually, that's also a difference there too.
Yeah, there is a difference there.
I love making platformers.
I don't want to make anymore platformers.
I like...

(58:17):
I want to make a first person shooter, but I don't know if I would like that, you know?
If you would enjoy the process of doing it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A lot of people would love to have like a big RPG.
A lot of people's favorite games are that, but making a big RPG sounds like a nightmare.
Between voice acting, quest scripting, like all that stuff.
If you want to see that topic, check out tomorrow...

(58:38):
The next podcast, next week.
I think that's it for this episode, unless anyone else has anything to say.
My name is MZ underscore F on YouTube.
I have MaxDev on YouTube.
MaxDev on YouTube, sorry.
Henry Verras Studios on YouTube and Kobe, Kobe Dev on YouTube.
Thank you guys for watching and hopefully we made some progress.

(59:00):
Loot boxes are solved.
We figured it out.
Good job, guys.
Yes.
Turned out of time.
I was right more than Henry.
Loot boxes were again?
Did we sell it?
I think we said they're all cool and fun and the more children they play your game,
the more mature they are going to be.
So good luck.
Yes, yes.
They're not predatory at all.
Especially if they're paid.
And easy to buy.

(59:22):
And targeted to children.
Yes.
Okay.
All right, good episode.
I didn't record.