We Ask a Pro Game Developer How They Market Games feat. Aligned Games | Ep. 8

On this weeks episode of Overscoped, the guys talk about the technical side of developing games, sure you can make them recreationally, but what if you want to make money? There seems to be more to it than you might expect.

Check out Johannes' stuff here: https://alignedgames.mailchimpsites.com/

We are joined by: https://www.youtube.com/@alignedgames

https://www.youtube.com/@mz_eth

https://www.youtube.com/@MaxyDev

https://www.youtube.com/@kobedev

https://www.youtube.com/@VerasStudios

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey guys, MZF here.

(00:01):
I was editing the intro to the next podcast,
the one you're about to watch right now.
And we are interviewing Johannes.
Unfortunately, though, we lost all of the video footage
from his interview.
And so when I was trying to pick the intro,
where we're going to cut together all the things
we're saying, it just didn't quite work without his camera.
So regardless, I thought it was a good episode.
We had a great time talking to him.
Hoping to do more interviews like this in the future.
We had a really great time.
So without further ado, this is the next episode

(00:22):
of the Overscope podcast.
What's up?
Welcome to Overscope podcast.
Am I not allowed to do the intro anymore?
I mean, there's a lot of debate over the intro.
Henry doesn't like the intro.
I got to do it.
No, no, it's not that I don't like it.
So you know, I thought we'd try without it.
You know?
All right.
Well, I mean, yeah, it's not that big a deal to have an intro.

(00:43):
But you're the one editing the next podcast.
So I don't know if you're sitting there editing,
being like, what are we doing?
How does it even start?
Like when you edit that, is it all just fine?
What do you mean edits?
All right, fair enough.
It's done.
It's done.
What do you mean?
Very special episode today.
Besides Henry, Maxi, and Kobe, we
have very special guest, Johannes,

(01:04):
which is Allied Games on YouTube.
I'm a real steam-published game developer, unlike us,
Jamoker.
So how are you doing, Johannes?
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me.
It's Align Games.
I think you said Allied Games.
Oh my god.
I'm so sorry.
Align.
Yeah, it's cool.
I don't know if you're having me.
I'm pretty excited to have a chat.

(01:24):
I know most of these guys just from being around.
So I think it's only you that I really haven't met.
Yeah, I was thinking about that, because you guys all
talked earlier.
And then they were like, yeah, we're
thinking about having them on.
And I was like, sounds cool, as long as, yeah.
You guys are all friends and stuff.
It sounds like an easy guess to have on.
And then it seems like you have a different perspective
on the YouTube.
A lot of the YouTube game dev people are similar to,

(01:45):
I think us, where it isn't a lot of published stuff.
It's more just YouTube content.
And you seem the opposite side of that coin,
which is really exciting to pick your brain about.
Yeah, for me, it's like you said,
it's kind of like an opposite approach.
Because when I speak to these guys a lot,
it's almost like they focus on the YouTube side of it.
And for me, I'm coming from the game dev side.

(02:06):
So I guess we'll talk about that in a bit.
But it's pretty interesting, that angle of it.
Very quickly.
So I see you work on a lot of first person games.
So what's the current game you're working on right now,
like your big project?
It's a game called Operator 8.
And it's kind of like.
So Doom 3 is a really big inspiration to me.

(02:29):
It's kind of like the bad one, but it's the one that I like.
And I don't know how old you guys are.
I might be a little bit older.
But when I was a kid, we played that a lot.
And it was really scary.
And apart from that, it's also dead space.
So it's kind of like a combination of those.
But with obviously not that quality level.
But a lot of features and environment taken from that.

(02:52):
And it's got a very unique art style.
So that's kind of the big game that I'm working on.
But I am working on about six or seven.
Six or seven at the same time?
Yeah, yeah, I work on a lot of stuff at once.
And then I also have like a bunch of freelance clients.
Which I work on.
That kind of pays the ball, because I do do it full time.
I have a question for you.
OK, you're working on six or seven projects at the same time.

(03:13):
I have found myself not being able to get a lot of work done
just focusing on one project.
Because I feel like I just get stalled on it, right?
Does it help you that you're jumping around
between six different projects?
Well, I think that's a very from person to person thing.
Because there's this other YouTube.
I don't know what his name is right now, but he also he's like quite big.

(03:34):
Like he does well in terms of numbers.
He's got like a 20k channel and he and he does good numbers on consoles and PC.
You know, and he works also on like four games at once.
And, you know, for him, it works.
But for some people, it might not be a good thing
because you might need to put all of your attention on what on that one thing.
But for me, that just I get burned out if I try and do it that way.

(03:55):
So I think it's like it goes from developer to developer, you know.
I think I find a lot of comfort in that because I feel like I'm
like I've been trying to do that one project thing.
And I feel like I'm slowly getting squid into the multiple,
multiple projects at the same time.
And I hope I hope it works out.
But I've been scared to do it.

(04:15):
I've been scared to commit to multiple projects because it feels like
it feels scary, you know, it feels like you're not going to get anything
done. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, you have to be able that it doesn't become a crutch, right?
Because, you know, that second project can lead into a third one.
And that's happened to me as well.
It's not like I'm just this machine that works on six projects a day.

(04:36):
You have to really manage your time.
And that's a very big challenge.
I mean, I've been doing it for like 13 years.
So, you know, I've gotten the hang of it.
But there's still some days that I don't do much.
And, you know, having too much on your plate can definitely lead to that.
So you just have to be careful with it.
Yeah.
For operator eight.
So I was going back and forth because I thought this is a good

(04:58):
when I was writing down your stuff and going through everything,
immediately will grab my eye was the Kingsfield stuff.
And then I was looking through your list of games.
I was like, wait, wait, where is this game?
So you have like a name for that one or?
Yeah. So.
So that game is kind of an accident.
I wasn't really a YouTuber like a year ago.
And then I was like, I was thinking to myself.

(05:18):
How do you become a YouTuber?
You need like a good video, right?
And I was like, so from soft is very popular.
And I don't really play their games.
I never really have.
And I looked through their backlog and I saw this old game.
And I happened to have a PS2 because I collect all games.
And then I had the game and I played it and I was like, this is really cool.
Like this is more the kind of thing that I would be interested in.

(05:40):
And I played it and I was like, OK, I could I could replicate this,
you know, with how easy, not relatively easy games are to make
now compared to then.
So I kind of was like, OK, well, let's see if someone else is interested in this.
And then the video is like the first video that I've properly done
that isn't like a game trailer or something.
And I think it got like it's around 16 K views now, which for me is pretty good.

(06:04):
And from there was like, well, now I kind of have to do this
because I kind of said that I would.
The audience capture.
I know that feeling where you're like, all right, I guess I have to keep doing
more of this content.
Yeah, exactly.
So and then I just started developing it, but I don't have a steamboat for it yet.
And as I've developed it, I've kind of written like a little novel for it now,
which is like the story.
It's about like, I don't know, like 150 pages of law.

(06:27):
So I've like written a little book for it, which is also, you know,
I think is something to consider when you make games is you need that back story,
especially when it's a story driven game.
But anyway, and then I just kind of took it from there.
And I kind of build it into another universe that I have,
which is the universe, which is the game death rattle hell unleashed.

(06:50):
And I have about seven games planned for that series in the next 10 years.
That's crazy.
So I do.
I do a lot of planning and a lot of coffee meetings, but that's probably just
going to like coffee.
Even in that first Kingsfield video you did, I may know, I was like,
a lot of it was like planning.
Like, I think the game's going to like this, I'm going to do that.
I'm not going to do this.
So and that's like the opposite of, I think a lot of what I do.

(07:12):
I think what I do is I have a vague idea.
You think it's sharper than it is.
I probably sound like an idiot talking to someone who's done so much game
dev and I'm so new to it.
But I envy that the planning aspect to it.
I need to do more of that.
So when I saw that video, I was like, fuck, why don't I have a list of like,
this is exactly what we should hit.
And if it goes off the rails, at least we had a starting place.
Yeah, it's tough.
Yeah, it's kind of also a thing of the grass is always greener because sometimes

(07:34):
I wish I could just be more free flow with it.
So I think, you know, whatever approach you take this, it can be right and wrong.
Like we're all going to have detractors and, you know, additives to our workflows.
So I think just accept that and just work with what you have.
That's what that's how I see it.
Gotcha. Yeah.
And are we going to say no, no, I was just going to make a joke out there.

(07:58):
Yeah, also, I think the audience capture thing is so real.
It's funny to hear you say that where it's just like, yeah, you do a video,
it does one, you're like, fuck, not going to make this thing.
Like, I think we all struggled with that a lot.
I mean, especially when I started doing YouTube stuff, I think the first video I did was like,
I was doing shorts, like tons of shorts and no one cared.
And then I did like basically what I must like one game jam video.
And then from there, the channel just grew dramatically.
So you feel like constantly like, oh, this is what grew the channel.

(08:21):
This is what people want.
I can't do the other things.
I have to be holding to what people want.
And then you sort of interact with people that watch your videos or at least I have on the
Discord a little bit and they like just don't care just because they found me for certain
thing doesn't mean that they need to watch me doing that certain thing.
So I think part of that is kind of true too.
But it can get in your head, at least it gets in my head a lot where you think you have to do
something.
Well, I think example that is when you once I when you go on like, oh, sorry for the break

(08:45):
guys.
The new video is coming out soon and everyone's like, what?
I wasn't waiting.
It's like, it's all in your head.
Yeah, that doesn't exist anywhere.
Yeah, I think the thing is like people don't really care.
It's like, do you think about yourself if you watch a series of like a YouTuber's games,
unless it's like one of these really big ones, you know, with hundreds of thousands of views,
but like you forget about it the second day, like after you watch it, it's like cool.

(09:08):
Like I enjoyed that, but you're not going to remember it.
And I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to like finish things.
And sometimes it's not worth it.
Like I'm not saying that about your games.
I just mean, in general, like you don't have to finish everything you start like that's
probably something that I wish I did less is finishing things because, you know, obviously
if it's like a game that you have planned out and you've done all this work, then you

(09:30):
know, I'd say get it out.
But, you know, even with video ideas, sometimes it's good to scrap stuff.
Yeah.
I feel like Maxi loves to scratch.
Yeah, I do.
You also start a lot of things, Maxi.
You'll like just start random things.
Oh, wait, Maxi, do you mind just bringing the mic a little bit closer?
I feel like sometimes you're super quiet.

(09:52):
Sorry about that.
No, you're good.
I had a, okay.
Man, I had a question, but then I lost it when we were everybody was talking.
There's one thing that I wait all the time for to come up and it doesn't come up, but
there's a demo that you released for a game recently, right?
That is Grand 1991.

(10:16):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You released this demo.
You didn't make any marketing.
You didn't have any ads running in GBA or somewhere.
And how many downloads did it get?
3000?
Oh, yeah.
I forget about the numbers now, but it has like, yeah, something like that.
It's like 3000 on Steam.

(10:38):
So 3000 downloads just from Steam traffic.
Yeah, from direct traffic is what Steam calls it.
But you have to realize about that is like, it's again that thing of you see something
you downloaded, you don't play it.
I've got like just under a thousand games on Steam right now.
And I've played maybe a hundred at the most.

(11:01):
So it's also that thing where, you know, you don't always play everything that you download.
And like it has decent numbers in terms of playing, but it's also like very much a soft launch where
it's kind of like an experiment, if I can put it that way.
To be honest, it's a game that I shouldn't have made because it's just making multiplayer

(11:23):
FPS shooters isn't a good thing to do in this day and age, especially as like a one man indie.
But it's just a genre that I love.
So I was always going to do it.
Well, I feel like what are your numbers, Maxi, for your game?
Much lower.
That's why I'm so interested in that because I mean, you didn't make any marketing for that.

(11:47):
So how did that many people find your game just through Steam organically?
So you want to get into the Steam chat basically.
Yeah.
Okay.
The thing is now at the moment, the most important thing with this is going to sound a little bit silly,
but I honestly believe this the most important thing with Seam at the moment is color is aesthetic theme.

(12:13):
It's basically how you present your project.
And I did a little bit of like internal QA with with with the marketing images and stuff for that game specifically.
And you get a lot of feedback from from people that sort of are interested in your things and play things.
And obviously, I don't think you guys will have like, you know, internal QA sessions with like multiple people, anything like that,

(12:37):
because it's it's smaller scale games, you know, I would assume, but it's valuable to get that feedback because what you think is good sometimes isn't.
And, you know, when it comes to steam, the the you have different images on steam.
But the most important one is the small capsule image, the one that is seen by the most people because you know, hundreds of thousands of people.
That's the one that shows up in in search when you search for the game.

(13:02):
That's small.
Yeah.
And that's why tagging your game is so important as well because those are the kinds of things that people used to find your game.
So for yours, for instance, you know, it's a fast paced action game, very colorful polygonal style graphics.
It should actually be pretty easy to to market with the visuals and with the gameplay.

(13:24):
But for yours, it would also be good to do things like social media marketing in terms of things like tick tock, you know, because you have a very clipable clipable game if I can put it that way.
So that's something that I would look into if I were you.
Gotcha.
Did you not do any external marketing outside of just like focusing on the steam capsule?

(13:45):
Me for for that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
But that's also like, like I said, it's kind of an experimental game.
It's not one that I'm sort of pushing in terms of, you know, trying to get a big audience for it because to be honest, I can't really support a big audience for it.
Because when it comes to multiplayer games, you need to pay a lot for service if you have a lot of people playing.

(14:10):
So that's called CCU.
So that's concurrent users.
So you need to be careful with how many people play your game.
If you have 20,000 people playing your game, it's going to cost you a couple of thousand dollars a month.
So yeah, that's why I'm aiming for a smaller audience.
Yeah, I have a question about that.
So do you think that it's possible to have a P2P multiplayer server multiplayer game just focus on PVP with no dedicated servers at all?

(14:42):
Yeah, I mean, that's just cloud servers.
Do you mean?
No, no, just like P2P, like connecting, having one person as a host and they host, you know, they connect everybody else.
I think that's how the old cult duties work.
Yeah, yeah, the old like 2010 cult duties.
Well, that would be, what do you mean like in lands and stuff?

(15:04):
No, no, no, I mean like over internet.
So like Steam has their own, what is it called? Tunneling, you know, whatever.
Steam has a bunch of networking features, but I don't use that.
It's basically making one of the players be the server.
That's what... right?
Well, I mean, that's definitely possible, but that comes down to your capabilities as a developer.

(15:29):
Yeah, I think the question how...
And how well you understand the Steam API because it's a very, you know, there's a lot you can do with it.
But people that make games the scale of that we do don't necessarily look into things like those because it's not cost effective most of the time.
I feel like the opposite because if you're focusing on a P2P to game, like you could scale the game to whatever because the server costs don't matter, right?

(15:52):
It's just going to be an individual hosting the lobby.
So I would imagine... yeah, yeah, I would imagine that would be the way that most people would go down.
But I guess the question isn't really if it's like possible, like I know it's possible we could do it, but I was more questioning whether you think people care about that
or like, or people expect dedicated servers to have like really long ping and consistent ping, you know?

(16:19):
Do you think that's a big driving factor in somebody trying to get like a...
You know, if you take a step back and like, are you speaking about a specific game or just...
For P2P?
Yeah, do you have like a project in mind?
I have a project, but it's not like a shooter.

(16:41):
It's just like a co-op game that you're just playing with one other person.
So that one makes sense to have a P2P, but...
What's the name of that game?
I haven't talked about it. I don't even think what you guys are thinking about.
The two-player game.
It's just a two-player game.
That's going to be the official name of the two-player game.

(17:05):
Do you view Grunt 1991? Do you view that as like a direct sequel to... is it 1914?
The other one you did?
Yeah, it's 1991. It's not really a sequel because it's a...
It's like it's as much as a sequel as a multiplayer Call of Duty game as a sequel.
Like it's a different timeline, but it's...
So it is based on the same engine, so to say, because it's Unity,

(17:29):
but I mean it's the same like scripting back end.
But I've updated a bunch of stuff and I've added new things.
So that's kind of...
You know, when it comes to indie design, that's something that I'm now learning to do a lot more is iterating on old games
and building systems where you can reuse those systems to save time in the future.
Because when it comes to my studio, that's also a big part of my income is my assets that I sell, my asset stores.

(17:54):
So, you know, for anyone listening that's thinking about how to make money as an indie, that's something to consider.
You build a game, you strip it for assets, you sell those assets, you sell the game,
and then you reuse those assets in the future.
So you have five, you know, effective ways of using something.
And I think that's what being in India is about as well, because it's independent.

(18:17):
You have to sort of find ways to maximize that revenue.
That's my answer, like in the movie industry, it's like you make a movie, it's in theaters,
and you have like the DVD thing and now it's on the streaming.
So you have all these other ways to try to get your money back from all the investment you put in, which makes sense.
Also, it just seems smart to work in some kind of sequel way,
because that way you have like this structure of the old game and you can build from there.

(18:38):
You don't have to just restart.
And it's consistent branding and marketing as well, because it might not be the same game or the same timeline or anything,
but you're building that name and that's why for this, because I never actually answered the question,
what's the Kingsfield clone called?
It's called the Gravebane Curse.
And that falls into that Uliadu universe that I spoke about, and I'm doing it that way,

(19:00):
because then hopefully over time people get to know that universe.
I'm not going to compare it to Tolkien, but I just mean in the same way that at one stage,
the Lord of the Rings universe, Middle Earth was also an unknown.
And over time it became something that people knew, and adding to that universe made it something that is recognizable.
So that's what I approach with indie games as well, is getting that starting point and then building on that.

(19:26):
That's why I think making series is a good idea.
The 30,000 downloaded game.
I know Steam has an option where you can add a game as a sequel to a franchise and create a franchise inside of the Steamworks thing.
Did you do that with that game?
Yeah, I think I did.

(19:47):
Do you think that is the reason, because the first game was terrible, the first Grand was not a good game.
I think it's got mixed reviews.
But it was the first game I ever made and it was also a multiplayer shooter, so it's my own fault really.
But it's a difficult thing to make multiplayer games.
I would advise people that are indies to not do it, to be honest.

(20:10):
Because in my experience they don't sell better than the single player counterpart.
It feels like the way to do multiplayer, it seems like the indie, and I haven't done it obviously, I'm just looking out from the sidelines,
people try to make the game where you need a bunch of people like a lobby to fill and that seems really hard.
We talked about your 1914 had bad reviews, I was going through them.

(20:32):
All the reviews are like the lobbies are empty, those are all negative reviews.
It isn't even a direct analysis of the gameplay or any of the design elements.
It's just like, I bought this thing and I can't play this thing without bots.
But you have bots in there, right?
Yeah, I do, but it's not very good quality bots.
It's serviceable, but it's like you need to think about the customer's experience.

(20:54):
And I feel like sometimes as indies we think more about our experience making the product than actually playing the product.
So in a game like that, I should have considered making it free, which I was never going to do because it was my first game.
I had delusions of grandeur and all of that.
But I should have considered making it free because then I would have bought up a player base and a fan base.

(21:17):
And the other thing with multiplayer and this might just be my experience, but I feel like it attracts a much more critical audience.
And where you make cute little indie games, the kind of people you attract are much more perceptive to mistakes, if I can put it that way.
Perceptive to them like they are they see your mistakes or?

(21:39):
They accept them. They understand them.
Yeah, I feel like it definitely depends on the genre.
It's a bad game. It's like this is a bad game.
There seems to be these people that review games on Steam, though, which I just noticed and they're like their whole thing is reviewing games and they almost take it like they want to be a game journalist.
Maybe they are. They used to say like if you want to do that thing, you should start do it for yourself.

(22:01):
But it's really daunting to get a review in like just reading them.
Like the most brutal, like not understanding because for them they paid money for a game and experience like they don't necessarily care or maybe they shouldn't care that like it's a solo developer working so hard for so many hours.
But in their mind, they're just like, you know, doesn't support widescreen thumbs down and you're or whatever it is like ultra wide.
Like I've seen that those comments before it's like the smallest little thing it doesn't have.

(22:23):
I'm not going to engage with any of your gameplay or any of the stuff you've done.
I'm just going to give you a thumbs down and move on with my day and you're like as a developer, I'm like, especially as a new developer, I'm like, fuck, I'm going to have bad performance or something.
And it's going to literally like tank the reviews of a game.
And I just feel like there's nothing you can do. You just have to like read the review and like kind of go, all right, thanks.
Do you think? Yeah.
Do you think that's okay.

(22:44):
So I have a I have this thought I'm actually very consumer side on this.
I feel like I do not care what the developer went through in order to make the game and I don't care about any of the work.
Because at the end, I'm just playing their game.
Right.
I guess I just wanted to ask about that. Like, how do you feel about that?

(23:05):
I used to feel like Zeth when I started in the first, let's say, five years.
And now I think about it more from the perspective that you're taking where, you know, if I buy a game and I play it, I'm concerned with whether it's a good game, not whether the person made the game has now, you know, learned how to be a better developer.

(23:27):
That doesn't matter to me. So I'm kind of thinking about it in that way when I make games as well.
Because it's just it's not really it's not really fair to expect people to to be lenient towards yourself because it's a product that they purchase.
It's like, if you work at a cafe and you make a bad coffee, they're going to say it's a bad coffee and it's kind of the same thing.
And I feel like there's like this forgiveness culture around indie games, which is a good thing.

(23:51):
But it's it's become more of a community now rather than a business, so to say.
But when you step out of that community and you go into the big side of the business where you where you get 100,000 downloads on your game, you're going to get honest reviews.
But I think that's valuable because in the beginning I took it really negatively and it was it was hard on me mentally.

(24:12):
But over time, I've learned to not really care about it too much and just sort of, you know, when you see a bad review, you note,
firstly, note whether that person is saying something constructive or not.
And if they are, you know, take it down and try and learn from it if they're not ignore them because some people are just going to be trolls.

(24:33):
I feel like gamers feel more identified with the hobby than other hobbies.
Because when you say you go into a coffee shop and you get a bad coffee, you don't care how the barista is like feeling that day.
It's like you got a bad coffee and that's your your experience.
But that's not even what I'm seeing or complaining about.
It feels like more you go into a coffee shop and the coffee cup didn't look the color like your favorite color.
And then you're like, oh, the color sucks.
And you walk out and you even try the coffee. What's happening?

(24:56):
Like that's how it feels where it's like, oh, yeah, the game didn't have this really niche thing.
Yeah. So and but I think part of that is because as gamers like, which gamers feel such a cliche term, but I guess it feels like they identify with especially PC gamers.
You're building a computer.
A lot of times you feel like you invested in this thing and then performance matters.
And there's all these weird things that sort of feel more connected than like a book reader being like, well, the pages weren't my favorite texture.

(25:18):
You're like, why would you say that?
You would be you'd be like made fun of if you judged a book by literally by the cover.
It's the thing, right?
So I don't know.
I feel more sensitive.
People do as well.
I mean, yeah, it's a reality.
I hate, I guess.
You said about people building PCs and being connected to them.
I mean, I'm a testament to that.
I literally run a PC store.
You can see in the background, there's a power supply and motherboard.

(25:40):
There's a PC.
I just sold like, you know, it is a very personable thing when you build a computer, it becomes sort of like, you know, it becomes an extension of yourself and the games that you play on it.
You know, people only have so much time, so you have to be selective with that.
So basically, you have to see it in a way of this person now on Steam can choose hundreds of thousands of games.

(26:01):
Why should that person choose my game?
But I do understand what you're saying.
Sometimes people are just trolls.
That does happen as well.
Or the experience is like, you want the experience to be something they can interact with, I guess, or at least I do.
I want them to be like, I'm commenting about this.
It's like constructive in that way where it's like, I experienced your game and whether or not I liked it.
This is the experience I had as opposed to like, the meta conversation about things that aren't the game, which I get the consumers for their buying a product, but still, it's just, it's a frustrating thing.

(26:28):
And, you know, it scares the fuck out of me because I feel being so new in a game.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I feel like you can also see that in the opposite way, the positive way, right?
And to be honest, even in the positive way, I don't really like it.
I can give you an example.
I don't know if you guys know this guy, a two star two star games, right?
Sounds familiar.
Yeah, he's the guy that made Chuchu Charles.

(26:49):
He's that guy.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
When his game was released, there was he got some reviews saying that the game was really mediocre.
And they didn't even say it was bad.
It was just mediocre.
And then because he built up this big audience, they, there were a lot of people that were like trying to protect this guy, you know, going like, yo, that's not fair.

(27:10):
Like he's just an indie solo game developer.
Like you shouldn't be judging this harshly comparing him, his game to like other AAA games.
And I was thinking like, as an indie game developer, I don't know if I would want that.
I mean, obviously it would be good, probably sales wise, right?
You would, those would probably translate into people who would buy the game.

(27:31):
But I would feel like I kind of just want to make a good game, right?
No, I hear you on that.
Yeah, yeah.
You're just like selling your personality.
You're like, no guys, it's a good game.
Danny made it.
And you're like, what?
No, we should be engaging with what the game actually is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I feel, I feel that.
And I, I hope to not be in that situation, you know, just because I am, I'll take it.

(27:57):
That's like basically, you know, but I'm saying, you know, both ways that you're saying you can get artificially, like being, being nice, treated nicer.
I saw one point, Johanna, say you said you were working.
This is one of the videos I was watching recently that used to work at night, but you call it like working at night and you kind of wouldn't really be able to get much done.

(28:19):
And ultimately like end up playing Skyrim and then like, you say you work for like an hour or two, which in my head, like at night, if I'm getting an hour or two of work done, I'm feeling pretty good about myself because I think it's actually incredibly hard to work at night.
So I was wondering if you're still keeping up that schedule where like, it sounded like you were shifting it more to the morning where you wake up earlier and sort of get more done.
So yeah, how's that been going?
That's what I'm trying to do.
It has been going better, but for me, the challenge is not playing Skyrim during the day.

(28:45):
Oh, shit.
You know, just limiting, limiting it to the night because I'm the kind of guy that when I play a game, I played just that game and I get really addicted.
So for me, it's been, it's been tough to, to just, you know, stick to working hours.
But that's why it's so important when you're an indie and you know, this is for anyone listening, that's an indie.
Planning is vital and you can, you can see there in Maxi's background that that whiteboard there, like you have to do that.

(29:12):
Yeah, I've got one over there as well.
Like you, you have to plan out what you're going to do and you have to try and follow it because sometimes so I run an asset store and that one is full of asset store assets that I need to make.
And still even so, sometimes I'll like deviate from that and not stick to the plan, but you really are shooting yourself in the foot when you when you don't manage your time well.

(29:34):
Because you know, I'm 30 now, so I'm getting up there, but 30 you even was that 30 exactly?
Because you're like, oh, you young kids, I'm fucking 32 over.
No, no, I'm 30. Yeah, I turned 30 in October.
Oh, I got a question about that too.
Yeah, I'm an old man right there with you.
Oh, okay.

(29:55):
No, no, no, no, no, no, you're not. You're older.
So, God dammit.
The point is like you think about your mortality really and you start to think about how much time you have and what you're spending it on.
These young fucks don't get it. I'm telling you once you hit 30, you're like, what are we doing?
We got to get this shit together. We got to start making stuff.
I remember like already halfway through life.
I'm not gonna die at 60. God dammit guys.

(30:18):
I'm sorry this podcast is going to end soon just because you know, unfortunately, Zath is going to be here anymore with me.
No, but I always said that like people like, oh, how do you get motivation?
There was something that happened when I turned like 30 where it just felt like, what? Yeah, it was like that.
What are we doing? Not happy with where I'm at in my real life work situation and being like, I want to do something I'm proud of.

(30:39):
So it just happened naturally, which really sucks if people like how do you get motivated?
It's like, oh, it just happens. And I don't think it can come from an external source.
I think it has to come from within. It's almost like weight loss for people that are like, how do I lose weight?
It's like, well, when you really, really want to and you're going through it, it just happens as opposed to like when you're like being told to do a thing.
Like, you're kind of following a little bit, but not really. And then it's hard to sort of stay on the track.
And there's something like that.

(31:01):
I feel like that's life. Like, you know, it's very difficult to say you're going to do something and do that thing exactly.
And that's probably not how, you know, humans are programmed to be. I think we are impulsive beings, you know, by nature.
But I think when it comes to game, you need to have a level of discipline and, you know, I do it full time.
Well, that's and the PC business.

(31:22):
But you're doing so much stuff. That's crazy.
Yeah, but I need to like if I if I don't like to not be busy, like I don't like to think about stuff.
So, you know, you need to just stick to your schedule, basically, and you will deviate from it.
So don't beat yourself up about that. But, you know, try and stick to release dates and stuff.

(31:44):
And that's something that I need to get better at as well, to be honest.
But yeah, that's that's the goal anyway.
Do you have any release dates like that you've already announced that are like this is coming out on a certain date and you're like, oh, fuck.
It used to be that way. And then and then what would happen is so the game that I released a couple years back, Death Rattle Hell Unleashed, which is a terrible title, by the way, really think about your titles before you make them.

(32:06):
Why is it title title?
Because I never knew what I never knew what death rattle was. Like I just saw the word death rattle somewhere and death rattle is like the thing that happens before death.
To some people, where you would like have these like shakes and stuff. And, you know, I made it the title of my game because I thought it sounded cool.

(32:27):
I just thought it was a cool sounding thing.
Yeah, exactly. But like a lot of people asked me about that.
What was I even talking about? Oh, release dates. Anyway, so, so for that game, I made a release date and I wasn't ready for it.
So I had to crunch. And I crunched for like six weeks, working like 12 hour days and just trying to get it done.

(32:52):
And I think, you know, in the end, I got so burnt out that the quality of the game suffered so much. So when it comes to release dates, just give yourself enough time.
And if you have to, you know, push the release date, no one really cares.
Like, no one even cares for big games anymore. So, you know, some indie game, no one's going to care that you're doing that.
So just be, you know, be kind to yourself in that in that way and don't crunch because it's just terrible for your health.

(33:17):
I have a question. If this is too personal, that's okay, we could cut it out. But do you have like 80D or 80HD or something like that?
Not diagnosed. That's my answer to I got not diagnosed. No, feels like it sometimes.
I think I'd be to an extent where I have this thing in my head where like there's there's a certain order to things.

(33:43):
And I'm very high energy in that way. And I spoke to someone about it. I think it was like someone had said they had dyslexia or something might have been one of you guys.
I'm not sure. But yeah, I think I think it's like it's a similar thing where your head works faster than you really can.
So yeah, I think but I think a lot of creatives are that way to be honest. So you just, you know, in time you learn to to deal with it and find good ways to do things, you know.

(34:13):
Yeah, I don't know if it fills me but I do have dyslexia in that like might have been a couple months ago.
The IDEs bro, the one they just like fill in the stuff that helps so much, you know, and just like,
Can we can we explain what dyslexia and IDEs are real quick for those who don't know? Not me. Just the listeners.

(34:34):
IDEs are all the hard drives.
No, like IDEs.
And the, you know, visual code.
He has no idea. He's making it up.
Visual code. What do you mean?
Oh, you mean like, oh, you mean, like a conditional something?

(35:00):
Yeah, that's not a no.
IDEs are the visual code, like no plus, no plus plus.
But I mean, you mean the thing where you write code and you press tap and it fills automatically.
Yeah, yeah. That's an ID.
Okay, I knew that.
No, you didn't. I also knew that. It always falls to something that I don't want in my experience.

(35:24):
It works perfectly for me. It like fills in so much. Sometimes I just have to press tap tap tap and it just does all the code for me.
It's crazy. Dyslexia is just like whenever it's only with certain like things and shapes and letters, but it's very difficult for me to especially see like repeating patterns like hello, like, you know, hello has two straight lines L.

(35:46):
Like it's when I'm actually looking at it, it's very difficult for me to actually distinguish the two lines.
And the only reason that I know that it has two L's is because, you know, I've been alive long enough to know that it has two L's.
But if I were to look at a word that I've never seen before and it has multiple repeating letters one after another, it's difficult for me to see how many letters are.

(36:10):
You skip the learning how to code.
You skip the hello world part. You're like, I definitely don't have dyslexia then because I've never experienced that.
Well, I think there's different forms of dyslexia. I think mine is that's like how I use it. People have more severe cases where they actually like flip letters and stuff, but mine is like just like repeating letters and stuff and similar shapes.

(36:37):
They kind of blend together, you know.
Yeah, that makes sense. Like these books in the background, are they blending together for you?
Yeah, yeah. For me, it just I can't even read it.
Just one big word.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if we can talk about this, but at one point there was a YouTuber who sort of made a video disagreeing with a lot of other video game YouTubers and you made a video responding to that.

(37:03):
You know, this is super vague. There was a channel called bite me games who sort of went after YouTube game dev people and he took a very negative stance on, you know, the community.
I think and then I think you had a responding video which was seemed way more positive.
And I really appreciated it. I don't know if you want to talk about that at all or your thoughts making that video.
Yeah, we can. I mean, first up, I really like Monus. I think he's a really interesting guy and I think he adds a lot of value to the indie game they've seen and they've like grown really quickly by games.

(37:34):
And I think like they have a lot of good stuff, which is that specific video, you know, some of the things he said I didn't 100% agree with but still I mean it's his opinion, it's their opinion.
They are, you know, more than welcome to have it.
I just, in my experience, there's no real real use in looking at things negatively like it seems like wasted time to me.
So I just, it wasn't even meant to be a rebuttal really it was just I was just thinking about the other side of it.

(38:00):
But yeah, it's a while ago. I don't even remember all of it, but that's pretty much how I remember it.
Yeah, I think my only criticism with that whole video, the bite me games version of it, because it just it did circle it was like, it was a good video for him like it did well for him, but it circled through the community because we're all like, oh,
it's kind of strange that we all got B roll, not all of us, but a couple of us got B roll as the examples of bad YouTube game developers and that felt really weird to be like, and some of these guys are trying to scam you and it's like a photo of Maxi and you're like,

(38:26):
oh my God, please don't say that.
It's not true. I wasn't in there.
Yeah, the video did exactly what they might have wanted because it did really well and you know when the reality is when you like when you focus negatively on things you do get responses and responses are good for numbers.
I think when you focus on the negative side, there's a saying in YouTube if you have like a title, if you can make it sound negative, it'll do better. I don't know how true that is. Everyone wants to be a YouTube guru, but you know,

(38:54):
Yeah, I have no idea. I'm such a new booth YouTube like I just try things like different things and mostly it fails, but it doesn't matter to me because I'm not dependent on it.
Yeah, I'm just trying to see where it takes me. And I think maybe that's the opposite for them because you know from watching their videos, their first game didn't do that well.
And maybe it's a thing where they because the YouTube has grown really quickly and I think they are focusing on that and you know all the best to them for that because I think it's a it's a really good channel.

(39:24):
Yeah, I wouldn't even say they're game developers are more just YouTubers that orbit around the game dev space.
Yeah, but that's that's kind of what I was saying when we started the conversation. I don't know if it was on the recording but a lot of a lot of the indie scene is sort of like is people that make videos and then make games for those videos.
They're not necessarily game developers they indie YouTubers like that's how I would describe them.

(39:48):
And for me like the YouTube thing is kind of very much secondary I just came into it kind of on a whim. It's always been about making games for me. So that's, you know, that's why I think there's like there's a variation in the way that people do it.
And I think you know if you if you hit it big with YouTube you can make a lot of money as well.
Yeah, it feels like you sort of throw yourself out there into the to the game dev world and that includes YouTube it includes doing the dumb tick tock stuff and includes putting games on steam. And then whatever the good feedback is, regardless of who we are, we want to just do our own thing but we probably do lean into the good

(40:23):
feedback so if they're like oh the YouTube's going well. Alright, we'll focus more on the YouTube. And then yeah I think from my point of view I'm always thinking I want to be more of a game developer so the the YouTube stuff even it does well.
But it doesn't feel like the goal the goal is always to make a game the goal wasn't to make a video about making the game. Yeah, someone to see the game. Yeah, it feels like to me like I'm always trying to like the way I view YouTube is I'm trying to get that conversion of like the audience to actually

(40:49):
purchase your game.
I feel like that's sort of what Danny was going for also like I don't know if you guys know who Danny is he's kind of a small, small time. Yeah, okay.
I in my head that's what it always seemed like he was working on these like other smaller projects so that he could like release his his main game Carlson and then the even if the conversion rate was really low, which I don't think for him it would be I would

(41:14):
imagine something like 5% right 5% would be a crazy number.
From YouTube to sale or what do you what do you mean. Yeah, yeah, from from his YouTube audience over to a steam cell for for the game Carlson and that's what I that's what I saw him doing but he was like super super successful on that YouTube stuff.
So I feel like he, not that he saw the option, but the option was available for him to like stop working on on on even YouTube contents and Carlson, and I don't know if he's still working on it or not.

(41:49):
I feel like if I was in that situation where like, man, this this Carlson game is like huge and everybody's expecting that it will sort of be daunting right to to continue working on it, or go back to it or even like continue making other YouTube content because
everybody's focused on this one game that you've been talking about.

(42:10):
Yeah, but you know at that point your platform is so big that it would be and I don't know what his plans are for the future but it would be rather silly to not release it, you know, and to not get it out there because even if it does really poorly in terms of reviews, it's going to make him a lot of money.
Yeah, I think in the beginning, I've heard this quote for YouTube and I sound so in upset, what am I saying, self absorbed to be like, oh, I feel this way but that you can kind of sense it coming together, which is that in the beginning it felt like when no one watches any of your stuff, you're just fueled by hope.

(42:42):
And then as soon as you start to get some people that care or watch or your videos do well, then it sort of such as to fear because then you're like, oh, what's the next videos and do so well what if the next video isn't funny or good or interesting.
And I feel like a really small YouTuber trying to figure that out so I can't even imagine I feel like for Danny there's probably a level of like, I mean he was so big he's making games, XQC is playing all these streamers are playing it and I think the crab game was the big one that he released that was basically the Swig game ripoff and I think we looked it up recently and it's still like is it top 10 on steam it's like one of these incredibly like played

(43:10):
games, which blew my mind because I was like who's doing that but it's a free game and he had a really young audience so young kids really love to play free games I mean they don't have that much money or a credit card. But anyway, it all sort of made sense but then when you think about going back to do more videos like man when you're that big when you're the biggest
YouTube game dev person, it's got to be brutal in your own head thinking like, I don't want to mess it up I don't want to make a bad video or make a bad game. So I don't know that stress is probably insurmountable that would be my reasoning probably why he was like I'll take a break.

(43:37):
I mean, you know that's some sorry to interrupt you but that summit isn't that exactly what everyone is shooting for is to become the big the biggest the best.
Like isn't that the ball for people like, you know, and I'm not saying that's not a lot of stress it's probably an incredible amount of stress but I just feel like once you get to that point not even the top.
But like if you get like over 100,000, you know, subs being an indie YouTuber like it's like you've made it you can you never really have to worry about it again you can just do the projects you want to do and make the games you want to make like that is really the dream maybe not to be the best or the biggest but just to be in that top 10% you know.

(44:16):
Yeah, there was this thing that happened.
So my last video, it's been doing well and I feel like or it was negative to by the way.
Huh?
It's negative to by the way.
Was it? No, no, but it was talking about like my experience.
It was negative. Yeah, you were saying you're quitting. Yeah, that's.

(44:37):
Oh, yeah, I could say that.
Whisper it like it was the secret.
Yeah, you're like a negative that was your first negative video and it didn't weigh about it.
Well, no, that's not true. I there was one about like some artists like stealing art and putting it in my game or the game that wanted to get good to know.

(44:59):
A thousand or something at the thousand views.
Anyways, I find myself sort of like seeing the opportunity to jump into like doing more YouTube focused stuff with with that with that video because that video I didn't even show any like a game development content.
I just like talked about it.
And there was this one guy that we all know his name is is Dino and he's like he was telling me that I should really focus or he thinks that I would be good at like doing that type of content like sort of like Timmy Fe came type of content just like talking about different experiences that I have.

(45:32):
But it feels like that type of content.
I'm slow like starting to drift more towards being a YouTuber than even a game developer.
For sure.
And yeah, and I said it like if it brings me success, I would 100% do it.
But if I'm being honest, I don't think I want to do that. I want to I want to make games like at the end of the day like like the YouTube is secondary to to just making games and I feel like I see that opportunity for me to jump to that.

(45:59):
But I I'm like really opposed to it.
But I guess the
I don't know why I started telling the story.
So I feel like you're honest. You feel the same way because that's kind of where the Kingsfield thing came from right where you're like well I work in this thing and then I got good reception something like I guess I'll keep working on it you sort of lean it's hard not to lean into where the success is or where yeah good.

(46:24):
Yeah, but I think the question is like what do you want to do like let me let me ask each of you like do you want to be a YouTube or do you want to be a game developer do you want to be both you know do you want to make games for YouTube and sell those games we don't make games and sell them or do you want to make videos like
Maxi do you want to be a YouTuber you want to be a game developer if you have to pick one.
Like it's not mutually exclusive you don't have to pick one but

(46:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's a happy that it got right.
No we're going to shut down your channel right now.
Game developer yeah I think that was harder than I thought I thought he was gonna say game developer no no no it is really hard because I already enjoy making videos but I think I enjoy making games more than making videos.

(47:12):
What about you Kobe.
I would be definitely on the spot like game developer I think I'm with Henry and and and Zeth as well where it's like the the YouTube is kind of like a way to market the game but to be fair I'm quite new to the like whole game dev and marketing side of things as well so I feel like I just need to get a few projects out first before focusing too hard on the YouTube.

(47:42):
I feel like I put that first a bit too early on and jumped the gun whereas I didn't even have like a project halfway done or something like that.
Do you do you feel that stuff do would you rather be a game developer.
It's undeniably fun to do the videos when they're done when the video is done it feels like when I used to work on music when the song's done it's fun to play it back it's fun to be like oh my god this is a thing I did and I'm proud of it.

(48:07):
But fucking editing is the worst I don't anyone likes editing and this whole sphere everyone hates it the first thing to do is I hire an editor.
Yes editing is the worst I would say scriptings bad but I don't script enough so the more I script the less I like it.
Do you do any scripting do you do any of that or you just go off the cuff.
Do you mean beforehand when you do the video are you like writing out where you're going to say or you like hitting record and like all right let's just see how this comes out.

(48:31):
I script out my videos completely before I make them.
Yeah.
Most people do.
Yeah because I'm you would have seen from this podcast I drift my mind drift so much like I like I'll talk about something and it'll end up as something else and in videos you have to have a little bit of focus.
Yeah I could see that.

(48:53):
I always thought it was my brain just like hyper focuses on like it feels like I'm telling a story I'm like I want to say this and then that it might take me two days to record all the audio of me just like trying to get good takes of me talking it through.
But if anything all I'm trying to do is shorten it I'm like I feel like I could talk for 15 minutes about why this inventory system was good and then I'll listen to it back and I'm like just fucking get to the point like why did you keep talking so that's the only thing I have to worry about when I don't script things and then I also script

(49:16):
intros because I feel like that's one of the most important parts of every video and it feels like when you were like in school and they're like you have to have a good intro to your essay or whatever and like that kind of stick with me so.
Aside from that though I so to answer your question I feel like the YouTube size it's just a big ball of stress having finished project is nice especially when games are so there's so much time to make them be able to have these little many things that you make as a creative person it's fun to do it's fun to get feedback on it

(49:39):
scratches that itch and it sort of hits that dopamine receptor but the whole purpose is not to be a YouTube the whole purpose is to make a cool game like I'm inspired by games I played I'm not really inspired that much by the YouTube or some make the YouTube content me like when I watch a game that video I never think like
man I want to make a devlog just like that but I might think man I want to make a game just like that like holy fuck the game looks cool so I think it's a no brainer for me is the game dev 100% the YouTube is just fun to do and it's fun to get feedback but what about you Henry so.

(50:05):
Oh sorry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Game game dev I wouldn't.
The suit the faculty drop YouTube.
I'm going to drop you.
You don't have to do it.
Well this is the conversation visit the conversation that we're having here like see and think hearing these numbers and stuff from Johannes it sort of makes me think like man is YouTube really that important for marketing because in my head that is like super important right like you need to you need to get an audience in order to

(50:36):
sell your games.
So my game operator eight right that has a demo as well.
I get about.
I get about.
About just under a thousand visits a day on that demo and on the steam page I get about 2000 visits a day for the main game.

(51:06):
So at that point the question becomes how do you convert a visit into a sale right because that's what you kind of have to think about.
And that's kind of a tough question because I'm not at that point yet like my goal is to have like a specific number of sales every day which you know I'm not at the point where I want to be with that but that's kind of what you have to get to so you kind of just have to set benchmarks

(51:28):
for yourself and you know numbers aren't going to just appear overnight if you want to get numbers you need to put a game out there.
Like you know put a demo out there put a like like like Maxi is doing now like you know get out there see what people think and start to get that feedback because you'll find in like indie dev communities a lot of people can be pretty helpful and a lot of people want to help you like they want to help you make a good game like I've had a lot of people that are

(51:52):
really into it like they give me like pages and pages of feedback they'll play my games more than I've played that so you know.
There are people out there that will help you get to that point but just to put it this way like I might have a bit of steam knowledge but I'm not anywhere close where I want to be with steam like I still have a very long way to go.
Um, go on.

(52:14):
I was gonna say just because we're talking more about your game coming up to grunt and I wanted to ask this before but are you worried that grunt is still multiplayer game right still going to be like a lobby multiplayer game.
Are you worried about falling into the same trap that the first one did like where you sure you have bots but you're worried that you don't have the player base like is there anything you're doing to be like alright how do I.
Sort of combat that issue.

(52:37):
For me specifically the thing is I don't really care too much about how it does.
In terms of of revenue for that game specifically operate I do care.
Because it's kind of like I kind of made it as a test to see if multiplayer first person shooters would be viable in the future.
And you know I can't really answer that yet because I don't have any sales data yet.

(53:00):
But you know in terms of wish list and conversion of that like it's it's been okay but it's very difficult to compete with the bigger games.
Especially the big indie games and it's like you need to pick your drawn or carefully because why would you want to compete with them it's a silly thing to do really and that's what that's why I think operator eight is a good choice.
Because it has about I think it's just under 14,000 wish lists now.

(53:24):
And when you look at steam's conversion rate so seems average conversion rate is 16.1% right.
From wish list to to sale and I mean if you if you take a look at what a wish list is it's just really it's an intention.
To it's just an intention it's like if you wish list a game it's just it's a signal of intent right it's like this looks interesting that's that's why you wish us something.

(53:49):
But it's not a promise it's not a guarantee a wish list isn't isn't like a promise that someone will buy this game it's a it's a maybe.
And that's why I think people focus too much on wish list.
Because, like I said I have like 14,000 now for operator eight.
But if I get like 2000 sales I'll be happy with it.
And that wouldn't be the best conversion rate.

(54:11):
But you need to look more at the data of our people interacting with you are they asking questions are they like.
Do they want to know about your game do they have feedback for you because that's data you can actually use I think wish list has sort of become this crutch where you know if you have enough.
Steam is going to pick it up and they're going to like push your games and stuff but we're talking about hundreds of thousands we're not talking about numbers that people like us can realistically reach.

(54:36):
So we need to focus on other metrics that's that's what I think about it.
And that's why that's why I say it's so important to have good visuals to have a good steam page.
And to anyone listening that is setting up a steam page.
A really good example of that is a game called outbound Thomas brush that just made a video talking with the creators of it.

(54:59):
And just go and look will will probably put like you guys will like put a link to it or something so that people can look at it I assume.
But it's a really good example because look at the description it says what the game is but it doesn't overdo it.
It gives an idea of the scope of the game of what you can do as a player and of the location.

(55:20):
But it's not overwhelming and it doesn't like give you too much nonsense information that you can't use.
And then if you look at the steam page it's kind of to the point and they have a lot of gifts in there that's just like relaying vital information.
So anyone setting up a steam page copy that game because what they're doing they are doing really well.
And another trick that I've learned I just that's just sorry for babbling but it might be useful to people listening to this.

(55:47):
Something that I've that I do in my games as well and I've just copied this from I don't even know where I saw this on a steam page somewhere and feel free to copy it from mine.
If you go to operator eight there's this this gift that I have that is literally just a little like a little icon of a mouse cursor going to the right.

(56:08):
To wish list button and clicking on it.
So add that to your games as well because it's just like a little visual reminder for people.
But yeah as I say don't focus too much on wish list.
You know if you get like 500 to 1000 wish list you'll make a little bit of money.
And you know at the level that we operate at you know I feel like people put too much importance on on those numbers.

(56:32):
You know I think just get something out there that's that's the vital thing.
Yeah yeah I'll go ahead Henry.
And I was I was gonna say and I think we're all planning on relatively soon I don't know about you could we actually is only one but we're all planning on setting up a steam page here soon so be cool to have you.
$100.

(56:53):
Yeah we all spent $100.
We spent two right.
Did you get a refund.
But it would be cool to have you back on when we all have our same pages launched and then maybe you could do like a like you say like specific.
Champagne.
Woo yeah.
But yeah did you did you have any like last words that you wanted to say or.

(57:18):
Oh we finishing.
Yeah I haven't these things go so quickly like it to me it feels like we've been speaking for like 10 minutes.
Cogies maybe said like five things.
I don't know.
I feel like I have any.
Yeah yeah it's yeah I guess this is kind of like a specific topic right it's like.
If you don't if you haven't made a steam page yet you don't you can't have too much to add but I mean you've all probably made like like it's pages right.

(57:46):
Oh yeah yeah yeah and it's really very much the same thing you just think about what the customer would see and and how they would react to it and I think it's a really good idea.
They would react to it and it's not like I'm an expert in this like I'm still learning you know what works well but it's just I've basically I've learned through failure which I think is valuable as well and we all will experience failure that's just the way it is when you're an indie.

(58:08):
So don't put too much pressure on those first projects.
Looking at you Maxi.
What.
I'm just saying don't put too much pressure on yourself with your page just like do whatever feels natural.
One more thing I wanted to just clear right there on this and I wrote this down but sometimes I feel like you're talking about the consumers experience and I realized this is something I talked to Henry about was like sometimes what I'll do is I'll sort of reverse engineer how I got to buying a game.

(58:34):
Because as a as a consumer it's all sort of passive things that are happening to you.
And I looked at him the other day and I was like you know what I kind of do is like I'll see a game on like Tik Tok or YouTube short and it's just gameplay and it's people having fun and then I look at a like a message or friend of like hey do you want to play this with me sometime and that.
I realized I was doing that without even putting together that like oh that's a game this is a marketing strategy I was just like consuming the media.

(58:55):
It made me think that I wonder if that's a better way to engage with like the devlog thing I've never bought someone's game off a deadlock ever like I'm talking to other game developers and their other game developers are watching each other stuff but it never translates into like me buying their game
unless I'm like an ultra fan of their thing so I don't know I think it's a tough one to figure out like thinking more like a consumer unless like the developer of our games is like a tricky.

(59:18):
Well that's kind of why I make the separation between YouTube and game development because YouTube can be a very very like specific thing when it comes to game development and what's what's good about YouTube is you get that community of like minded developers.
You know like what we are doing right now and that's really cool for one part of what you do as a developer but you kind of have to separate your game from it to an extent and you can be a tool for special shorts.

(59:44):
For promoting your game as well but you don't really want to be promoting your game to developers like some of them will play it and they'll give you valuable feedback but that isn't your player base and shouldn't be.
So what you need to do is you need to figure out how do you find your niche and the you know the genre let's say you you're making like a vampire survivors clone right.

(01:00:04):
That'll be an easy thing to market because it's something that is popular right now or maybe not right now but it was a couple of years ago.
And it's something that is very tick tockable if I can put it that way it's something that you can easily make sure to have.
So you kind of have to separate that marketing and sort of like development journey from each other because the average player doesn't really care how you made your game or how you felt doing it they just care what the game is.

(01:00:33):
So I think just make that distinction and that is something that a lot of indies haven't really started doing yet.
Yeah I think there's some ways to break out of it.
We'll see me and Maxi both try the thing where it's like you're making a video like a short and you're sort of talking to the audience for suggestions.
Because you think that the theory is that like well these people that aren't developing games they can sell like hey can you make this type of gun or can you put this thing in your game.

(01:00:56):
It doesn't blow up for shorts.
I think shorts are more about sharing I think really helps blow up shorts or helps the algorithm I think we're all pseudo you know not gurus you know I mean YouTube is all a mystery.
But in my mind it seems like that's the way where you sort of reach across the aisle to like more people that want to play games unless game developers.
Yeah.
Yeah I think so.

(01:01:17):
But it's also like it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive you can have both if you have the time like yeah you can have a community of developers and people that help you with QA and stuff you know and those discord servers and all that kind of stuff.
And then on the other hand you can have your your players so to say and you know players want to be useful sometimes as well.
But I do think there is a little bit of value in just knowing which is which.

(01:01:40):
Can we also explain what QA means real quick for the people.
That's just probably assurance like quality assurance when you polish bugs and stuff like that and.
Okay so just play testing and stuff.
Play testing and getting issues with the game yeah it's just got insurance I mean every every company in the world has QA.

(01:02:03):
I'm glad I asked that question Maxi because like I was here.
It's easy to game developer to push away this little buggy or this and I'll fix that but we think it's a real game but you have that game to a player and there's like one bug and like I don't want to play this.
Okay well yeah because that's the real experience right.
Yeah Henry if you want to wrap up there's one more question I want to ask I don't know if you had anything else but I was going to ask as someone's been doing it for 10 years.

(01:02:27):
And mostly of our audience is going to be people that want to do game development is there any piece of advice that you would give a sort of a last thing to say.
Yeah the most valuable thing that I've done in the last 10 years is diversifying my income so don't rely on in maybe in the future YouTube don't rely on.

(01:02:48):
You know your games solely don't rely on anything you know solely on that thing so have multiple avenues that you do it and they can be small they can make a hundred dollars each a month and you know if you add it up it can add up so.
For me you know that's selling assets is a big one selling games and then you know hopefully in the future it will be YouTube but then I also do other things like like the computer shop that I run.

(01:03:12):
Just make sure that you know your bottom line is covered with diversifying because it can also happen like it's it scares but sometimes one part of your business can can completely get destroyed or fall apart or whatever so just make sure to sort of.
You know get yourself out there and more days more ways than one and another thing is it's really important to have a good website and a mailing list which you know I can talk for ages about steam so maybe in the future we can you know we'll do another one we can talk more about it.

(01:03:42):
But a mailing list is very important and this is something that I'm actually setting up right now.
Get people to and you'll see this on the bottom of that outbound steam page to the bottom click if you click there there's like they have a mailing list button there and that's really valuable because then you have the power to let people know when your products or you know whatever stage is there at.

(01:04:06):
Awesome yeah thank you so much for coming out of the podcast and talking to us I feel like we finally have someone with experience about this kind of stuff because we are so new to it all.
So it's a line I know it's yeah a line games right now I said I'm sorry line games on YouTube.
And then operator a is there one game you want to push them to to wish list to check out operator you can buy.

(01:04:28):
Probably probably operate it's an early access right now.
Yeah my stuff is it's a line games on YouTube a line games on the unity assets store bunch of assets there some free stuff.
We just link all of it in the description yeah we'll link it all but yeah I just know we'll be like a bunch of games as well but the big one is operator eight right now with a lot more to come in the next couple years.

(01:04:53):
Awesome well thank you so much for being on the rest of us as Henry various studios on YouTube Kobe Kobe Devon YouTube Maxi Maxi Devon you guys know I'm mz.
Thank you guys so much for watching.