"donk would be right to leave spirit" CS Mount Rushmore and why Falcons aren't a top five team

This week's Overtime on Inferno episode is a threeway, but not the fun kind (unless you have a thing for witty podcasts). The boys discuss whether or not donk should leave Team Spirit before promptly moving onto pocket watching the 18 year-old Russian.

A recap of Fissure Playground 2 also features.

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Chapters:
00:00 Intro - Deadest roster challenge
2:39 Should Donk leave Spirit?
14:59 Is VRS still bad?
31:20 NAVI win Starladder
32:20 Take of the week
37:14 Fissure Playground 2: Falcons
49:40 Fissure Playground 2: Liquid
57:10 Fissure Playground 2: FURIA
01:08:45 CS Mount Rushmore
01:15:58 Outro

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Boys. Hello.
I'm a man. Yeah, but we're the boys.
Thank you, Jack. We're the boys.
Well, that's ruin the intro, hasn't it?
Why? We're back to you boys, boys,
boys. What is the deadest team you can
think of? I know you've got an idea for

(00:20):
this already, so. I've got it, Jack.
Do you want to? Do you want a second to think?
I'll ask, I said that as pro straight away.
No, no, like you can build a dead roster here.
Oh, I'll let something good for this, yeah.
OK, so right, we're starting offstrong electronic is the RGL,
Yeah, because you've got to havehim.

(00:41):
We're then going to have Deco asA not ORPA alternating on the
ORP and also B anchor spots willbe Dead Fox and Smiths and to
complete the line up our Star Rifler deaths 4.

(01:04):
Has Jeffrey ever been a * rifler?
He dropped thirty against liquidin Cologne 23 or whatever it was
so for. One that was by accident.
Not what I asked is. It, yeah, but for one game.
Listen, I was told to build a dead team.
I built a dead fucking team. Deco's planning to fucking
perform a five man murder suicide and electronics probably

(01:27):
sinking further into depression,yeah, but dead Fox, he's just
happy to be there. So.
I miss dead fox. And he's already dead.
He is. He's already dead.
Yeah, that's what they say aboutfoxes.
The only good fox is a dead fox.I think that's a Thor in.
June No, I think that's no, nevermind.
Not a journalist, but. Dead Fox.

(01:50):
Anyway, you've had a minute to think, have you?
Have you come up with anything off the top?
No, no, I haven't. OK, for those of you wondering
why I'm asking this, you should be subscribed to the newsletter
if you're not going to subscribenow, we started our Wednesday
deep dives and I did the first one on how to build a dead team.
Sam's doing 1 this week, so you can unsubscribe now if you've

(02:13):
already subscribed and then subscribe again next week.
Go fuck yourself. Yeah, it's fine.
Yeah, well, at least it's not irreverent bullshit.
That's the best kind. The best kind of bullshit is
irreverent. Roll the intro.

(02:39):
So guys, we're hitting, we're starting with a bit, little bit
of a bombshell here, which is if, if rumours are to be
believed, which you know, they're rumours for a reason.
There is a possibility if Spiritdo not win the major or do badly
at the major, it does underperform.
For me, that probably means not winning it or at least not
making the final. If Dong is currently working on

(03:01):
his English, if Spirit underperform at the major in
Budapest, he may consider movingto an international team.
Source here is KRL who for my money is pretty reliable, right?
He's pretty good. Yes, but I would just recommend
scrolling down one tweet and seeing Carol's response to it.
For those of you who are not seeing this, it says 3K likes on

(03:23):
a lie so. Well, it's actually got 5K
likes. So who's the liar now, KRL?
Average French. I mean, I mean average truth
telling journalist, I'll let you.
Speak some, but I have thoughts on this.
The thing is right, I've got thelike, I sent Elliot the BO3
tweet, shit company, but it was the tweet that I saw.

(03:47):
They're not the only people I saw posting this.
So clearly KRL said something that has then been
misunderstood. Whether he was theorizing or
whether he was suggesting it wasan actual thing, like who knows,
But you could see it being a thing, couldn't you?

(04:07):
Really? Like don't questioning whether
spirit is the right place to be.Definitely a top three team in
the world. Yeah.
Like what a major you've won, you've won what you know what,
what were you after? Really?
Like I obviously, I'm not sayingyou should like take his fault

(04:30):
the gas, like him winning thingsis obviously doesn't mean he's
needs to stop winning, but the spirit is built around him
primarily. Obviously now we've zero since
he joined, right? But like really it was kind of
built around him Like is he going to get, it's kind of like
the Nico thing, right? Like, is he going to get that
treatment on other teams? Yeah, but it's more like think

(04:53):
about all the bullshit. If he joins Falcons then that
team has no excuse to not win everything ever.
Think about all the bullshit that Dunk does, right?
Like fucking you know, Harry tweeted the other day that
Dunk's got an EVP for an online group stage because he had what,
like a 1.55 rating across 10 maps or something like that?
Like it's it's ridiculous. Spirit don't even make the play

(05:16):
offs like a spirit or a very good team that can win things.
We know this. But if you if you're dunk
knowing that the entire time you've been playing with people
that maybe don't always pull theweight and you look at other
teams and you see a team of people or at least three or four

(05:38):
people that are pulling their weight.
Do you not think you may look atthe other teams and and think
maybe I can get a better team ifI'm on an international team,
maybe I can just always win? But you can't always win like
that. This is.
This is the. Yeah, but Spirit don't win
enough. You can't always win, but Spirit

(05:59):
don't win enough. I do suppose like we spoke
before, right, about the idea that like Tania joining was like
a Band-Aid fix. There's on ticks leaving, right?
And obviously Zantic would like return to the roster.
Does that maybe link to this? I also just I also just think

(06:23):
like magic slaving and zantic slaving could also have a part
with Dunk eventually leaving Spirit because like Dunk is
what, 18 still? Is he 19?
Yeah, like, he's 18. He's like a very nice kid

(06:48):
outside of this like random fucking ego character.
He pretends to play when he's like the HLTV awards or on
streams or whatever. And he was trying really hard to
get Magics A-Team. He was probably like some way
affected by the whole Zontic situation.
It's the first time that his team.

(07:09):
Him and his on Dicks. We're on the Academy team
together, right? Yeah, yeah.
For what it seems, they're really good friends.
So it's the first time that likea team has, I guess, changed or
in some sense fallen apart around him.
Like it probably does change theway that he views teams because
before that, that just wouldn't have been the case.
Well, I feel like a lot of things are his first, right?

(07:31):
Because he's he's a child. Well, yeah.
He like won his first year one LAN.
When he kissed the trophy, that was his first kiss, I.
Reckon he's got some bodies around him but.
My my question around donkey. Is yeah my.
My question around donkey is oh people tried to buy him before

(07:52):
he even played for spirit and nobody could afford him I don't
think. Like who's got the money to buy
Donk unless his contract is running out?
Well, I mean. They, they, they won't let him
expire, will they? Let's let's be real.
Well, he has to sign OverDrive. Rubbing, rubbing his grubby
hands together. Right.
Falcons. Another child he can profit
from. Falcons are obviously a given.

(08:14):
But like, surely Falcon? I mean, I don't know why I'm
saying this, but surely Falcons don't sign him.
But then. If they would, but if Falcons
were to sign, If Falcons were tosign Dong, I'm pretty sure it
would be the end of Nico on Falcons.
I don't see. Realistically, yeah.
Subscribe. Like I don't see how they can be
a team with Niko Dong and Kaosuke.

(08:38):
Niko Dong Kaosuke. Tessa's has no name values.
They'd get rid of Tessa's for Niko and then you've got Kixan
calling for a Russian team basically.
Well, just get rid of him and get electronic.
It would be good, wouldn't it? Oh God, need that electronic IGL
straight into my. Face Honestly.

(09:01):
Honestly. Go bitch, get get donk and then
get bit as well. Just don't even bother with it
all the. Other teams, all the other teams
that could afford him. Like how?
I don't think so. How much did Liquid and Vitality
get from EWC for getting in the top three?
But yeah. Because it's a large, like
that's not money. That's not money that goes

(09:23):
straight to signing players. Like that's not, do you know
what I mean? Like that goes to operational
costs. Well, yeah, that goes to try to
be profitable. Well, yeah, yeah.
But I don't know. I don't know how much money it
was, and likewise I don't know how far off.
It's not enough to pay Dong 60 grand a month, I know that, but.
They can probably do that regardless.

(09:44):
Of paying him that though. I doubt no, but I think, I think
that's what you'd, that's what he'd be asking for on the open
market. I don't.
I don't think the salary would be the issue for Dunk.
I think that's. No, I think it would be.
Good. Yeah, I think that salary is
probably low for him. Honestly I agree it's also you
reckon. I think it was a transfer.
Was it robs that was rumoured for like 50K at liquid when they
were after him? Yeah, yeah.

(10:05):
Which I'm like, yeah, that makessense.
I think Robs is that Donk is like closer to 100.
Well, how much do you reckon? How much do you reckon?
Need. I think that's a. 3rd but he is
absurd. How?
Much do you reckon need on the Falcons?
Because it'll be at least that amount, and that's going to be
at least 80. I reckon Nico makes a Miller.

(10:26):
Yeah, Honestly, I think the. Pocket was the pocket watch
podcast. It it could be a Miller.
Yeah. It really just.
It really could be. Yeah, no, I suppose it could be.
I, I, I don't know, I feel like,yeah, maybe I'm undershooting
with the 60K, but then I, I think there's a limited number
of teams who can pay his buyout and.

(10:46):
Well, that precisely. Like they'd be like, well, you
could take. 63 or you get another free transfer if someone
who doesn't resign. Yeah, I mean, that's I, I think
it's more likely his contract runs out than anyone buys him
out soon. Yeah, yeah.
But I think every thousand. People have got money as well,
right? We have.
To they have, but if he's not willing to resign, then there's

(11:06):
nothing they can do Why? Wouldn't he be like, again, if
the tweet's to be believed, sure, right?
But I feel like this claim's kind of done.
What? What?
Yeah, obviously. But like, it was just a fun
thing to talk about. But like, yes, what do you
reckon you would cost? Because 10s to Sentinels in
Valorant was $5,000,000. There was the one in League that
was $5,000,000 right? League.

(11:29):
And what was the money in league?
Is is was it? Caps the 5,000,001 in league.
Perks. I don't right thing Perks.
It was perks. Yeah, because Caps I think went
for, if I remember rightly, he was out of contract and he just
went across the so across the the road.
To would it be more than that? Because that is like.

(11:50):
The the absolute limit of esports transmission so far.
If he wants to leave, 2 1/2, three.
If he wants to, the only thing. I've missed.
The only thing I've missed from Henry G's third line was just
putting these things public. I mean, some of them.
I'd love to look at Spirit contracts.

(12:12):
I'd love it. Yeah, they sure you would.
But they would be fun against all of the teams and probably
Mouse as well. It'd be very interesting to
compare like the the current topfive teams contracts because I
reckon Vitality get paid on average a lot higher than the

(12:34):
rest of the top five unless Falcons are back in the top
five. What's I think Zai Wu does?
I don't know if the rest of them.
Do so the current the current vRS top five is Mongols,
vitality, furious, spirit, Falcons.
I bet the difference between vitality and Falcons average
wage compared to fury and Mongols and spirit is at least

(12:54):
20 KA month. If like if not. 30 it's also
like like like like like Elliot said, right, like like your Zai
woo is going to obviously get more than Mesi, but I don't
think. Anyone.
Vitality is not well paid. I, I I I I can't reveal too
much. I know how much 1 personal
vitality is paid. It's it's certainly not 30K more

(13:17):
than. I can't reveal too much, but I
think we could all guess who yourefer.
Well, yeah, but I'm not going totell you how much it is.
No, sure. And it's like, you know, I don't
think I don't think it's like insanely high by tier one
standards. I don't I think Zai Wu is paid
an insane amount of money. I think Zai Wu can sort of name

(13:37):
his price. I just.
Don't. I don't know if the rest of the
Mongols are paid that much. Well, maybe in.
Probably not. Probably not, but I think the
others probably are. And I reckon Shiro is probably
the highest paid player on Spirit by a comfortable margin.
Yeah, and I don't think it's ZaiWu money, but I bet it's like, I
bet it's like flames money, spirit of minted, spirit of very

(14:02):
rich. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I, I mean. Also a lot like like knowing the
value, like the fiscal value of a team, whether that's like buy
out cost or or salaries, it putsthings into effect.
They have like performance as well, right?
Like we all know Falcons have spent like some millions on this
team, right? And you have to look at it like,

(14:24):
OK, what do they have to win to even like justify those costs?
Do you know what I mean? Well, it's a team like Mongols,
which supposedly is cheap on paper, are still winning things.
I'm making deep runs, you know what I mean?
Well, for. Falcons, it's like it's a
fucking it's a Grand Slam and atleast one major, isn't it?
And even then, it's like you still probably haven't covered
the the transfer costs of all these players.

(14:46):
Yeah, I mean, obviously I know prize money is not the the main
metric, right? But yeah, it's, it's definitely
a, a interesting thing to look at, I think.
Yeah, anyway, let's let's stop talking about money because it's
just going to make me sad. Let's move on to something that
involves a lot of money qualifying for the major.
Just makes me. Sad vRS.

(15:06):
Yeah, vRS. We do this again.
I've been on the podcast and while I think last time I was on
all I did was moan about vRS so I don't particularly want to do
it again if I can. Sucks.
Get rid of it. Bring back the RMRS.
Just look how dead this list of team is teams is and remember
what bad news Eagles did. We should get Rachel Riley to
pull out team logos and put themon a board, and that's how we

(15:28):
decide to go to the major. I think you'd have a better
chance of getting good teams there than they are than the
vRS. I mean the problem isn't that it
doesn't get good teams, is is that it gets the same teams
here. Well, and also the problem that
the Starlander event become becomes an RMR by by by by
proxy. Yeah, this, yeah.
So this is the thing, right? If you look at that list of

(15:50):
teams, OK, right now we don't know who's going from phase and
we don't know who's coming in onLiquid, but that on a
technicality, not dead teams game.
Malaysian getting a new player in Nip, we know they're strong
VP, they can go fuck themselves.So rather.

(16:10):
They thought I'd say that, by the way.
Well, well. I like, yeah, I actually like
the set. I like the set.
What can I say? I like snappy.
I like the one with arrostos butyou know he was fucking rubbish.
RIP Mr. Sweet Rice. Heroic, like I think it's
heroic. Saw VP.

(16:31):
They're all pretty crap but whenyou look at the teams below them
gentle mates have been on a goodrun but we all know they're crap
paravision. We had a conversation about this
early in salmon. Paravision have been on a great
run, but in essence they're still a bit crap.

(16:52):
Yeah. Fanatic respect, Boom and BA.
Probably the only teams that you'd want above those three
teams there, like if. Sorry, who the fuck's on Team
Venom? That's a good question.
I'll look it up. I'll look it up.
I'll look it up so we everyone could see it.

(17:12):
Yes. No results.
Maybe just try. They do not exist.
Yeah, obviously Venom 0 logo. Oh, fuck off.
OK, No, fuck off. We're not.
No, we're not even. Narrow coaching.
We're not even entertaining talking about that team.
Go back, go back to the table. I just, it's not happening.

(17:33):
I refuse. That's silly.
But so so this is the thing. Innocent was on my dead team, by
the way. VRS it does get you the best
teams at the major with the problem, but it does if you look
at that like the the last three that stand the chance of not
making it and the last three or four that stand the chance of

(17:56):
making it, they are the best teams in Europe.
They no, no, no, they go to events is broken, but they they
have been the best teams for thefor the last three months.
I don't think they're necessarily the best teams for
this tournament, which is kind of like they're also like the
best, but they're the best. They're at every event.
But that's what Yeah, well, yeah, they're also that, but bad

(18:16):
news. Eagles weren't the best teams in
Europe, but they were the best team at the mate.
They were one of the best teams at the major.
And I think like that in in my eyes, that counts for more.
Like I don't want the best teamsan event one month ago.
I don't care who the best team at Star Ladder was, who's the
best team at this event. I think each event should be
disconnected from each other. I think it's because otherwise

(18:39):
you you just create that sort ofmomentum when it's really hard
to break. I mean fucking Nip couldn't
qualify for the last major because of this system.
The thing The thing is with thatthough, and and this is this is
one of the things I like about vRS compared to the major, the
old, old system. And I I still think the old
system is better. I've I've said that many times,

(18:59):
because the old system does giveyou bad news eagles and it does
give you ITB and and shit like that shit that.
They aren't teams I really care for otherwise, yeah, But they're
fun, they're interested. It makes it interesting.
But this is the thing. This system does at least give
you a tournament that is like the majors are now set up at the

(19:22):
end of each season. They are meant to be
representative of like the culmination of the season and
the best teams go to fight for the the biggest prize at the end
of the season. Bad news.
Eagles were not the best one of the best teams in an RMR.
They were not one of the best teams in a major.
Just because they made it through it didn't mean that they
were. What it meant was that there was
Bo ones and they play some fucked up ghetto style that all

(19:46):
these tier one teams couldn't really handle because it's hard
to predict. But then if they were that good.
Issue. Right.
If they were that good, why weren't they over event?
Because they all these Tier 2 teams, No, no, no, no.
But yeah. And the Tier 2 teams, it's like,
oh, you can't expect tier one teams to constantly beat Tier 2
teams. They play all these weird

(20:07):
styles. Who the fuck do you think bad
news? Eagles were playing yet online
all the time. Yeah, but getting bad.
Of course, bad news. Eagles weren't consistent.
Nobody's consistent against teams like that.
That's the point. And the style insist upon
itself. The style exists because that's
how you play at that. Level, yeah.
If you can't deal with Sonia's Eagles, you don't deserve to be
a top team. But that's also like you can see

(20:31):
where teams are consistent in Tier 2.
Monty did it, Paravision have done it recently, Nip have done
it for the most part, gentle mates have done it recently.
Who were the upper 1 running into Paris?
Not Monty 9/9 Nine were incredibly consistent online at
that point. Bad News Eagles never qualified

(20:52):
for an event outside the major like that.
Shows a lot about the actual quality of Bad News Eagles.
So it was. All it was all online.
You're saying qualify though when there weren't qualifiers
but you? Could all online.
Oh fine, but they didn't make itto any other event that other
teams did make it to. Neither did LEP.

(21:15):
Nor nor were they consistent like you can't.
It's a weird. But I don't.
I don't care if they're consistent.
Consistency means fucking nothing in a tournament.
Like no, but there is no league in counter strike.
But why? Why do I care about if the
team's consistent? But my point is, is that saying
the bad News Eagles were one of the best teams there isn't true.
They were just unorthodox enoughto take advantage of the system.

(21:39):
That's the. I don't that's the.
I think that's. I think that's really the.
System can be taken advantage of.
It's a bad system. No, no, we know the main system
is bad. Yeah, no, the RMR system was I.
Just I just like B wasn't I saidit was BO1.
I think there's no place to be aones if you'd better say yes,
right? I I'll totally agree with that.
But but. There's no place to have.
Still one Bo threes, Yeah, they still also beat phase in in in

(22:02):
the O2 game or the O2 game in. Really.
Yeah, they do O phase. I'm not saying they didn't, but
like I'm saying like. I don't even like the team.
I'm just. Let's just like, let's not
pretend the Bad News Eagles wereactually a good team to.
I'm not saying they were good, I'm saying they were one of the
better teams at that event by definition.
And they weren't particularly good at majors either.
But they were better than phase and phase ultimately, yeah.

(22:26):
And it made it interesting. And then I mean.
Phase was not a special gold jersey.
They wore for four. Wore for four, perhaps?
I mean, that was good though in it, that was Jersey but but like
you look at the team, they say though.
Yeah, there's nothing new. That's my problem.

(22:47):
But you can't. But you would get that anyway.
At most majors, you wouldn't. You wouldn't, but you wouldn't
have this at most majors becauseit was always a weird team.
It was always somebody who upsetthe cow.
Yeah, yeah. Fine, but they would be in the
VP heroic sore spots I think forthe most part.
My issue generally is that vRS came in to make it an even

(23:10):
playing field. No franchising, no invites and
stuff, no, you know, no none of that shit which apparently
everyone hates. But in in its absence, it's
created the alternative where itis.
The most close circuit we've ever had, Yeah, this is the most
close circuit we've had. And it means when teams are bad,
like Australia's have been for along time, they they don't
actually drop out well. There's still 4 majors. 5 majors

(23:32):
in a row. 4. Four and now they now they're
guaranteed stage 2 because they like did what?
I believe their big jump was Fisher Playground one and PGL
Bucharest. Yeah.
I'm not trying to. I'm not going to be an SL
employee, but that's a serious event.

(23:54):
Yeah, yeah, no. Issue 2 was good but I'm also
saying I don't know the exact number but like did liquid not
getting 100 points in like 2? Games.
So this is this is the real problem with vRS.
It isn't the team list that it creates right like that.
That in its core is not the issue with vRS.
The issue with vRS is that if you Elliot, if you bring up the

(24:15):
tweet of the one from like a week or two ago before Fisher.
Playground and give me a second to find it.
So fanatic in that one were, I believe in the stage 1 slots and
had a pretty decent chance. Now look at them.
They weren't at Star Ladder, they weren't at Fisher
Playground, like purely because they had like, OK.

(24:41):
Not fanatics then, but. Is that the original 1?
This is from 2 days ago. This is as we record.
No, no, we need. So oh, it is the same one.
Yeah, there's a, there is a different one which is the same
sheet, yeah. It's the first tweet in the
outline. I sent you it.
Should be this one. Yeah, yeah.
So look, there's there's Fanatic.

(25:04):
They didn't play Fisher Fight 60. 2. .9% they didn't play star
ladder. Yeah.
And now they're all the way downwith a 25% chance of winning the
major. The problem with vRS is what
we're seeing at the moment, and it's really bad in Asia as well
because of all the events in China where this, this
manufactured vRS race is actually just something that the

(25:24):
good teams that can get these vRS invites can actually abuse.
That's the that's the real problem now.
Why financially? Our friends in team had a less
than .1% chance as of like 2 weeks ago.
And now they're And what are they up to now?
No .1 still wait. Oh OK, that doesn't matter why

(25:47):
that, I'm just confused why they're on there.
But but so like this is this is the issue right?
Liquid had a random fucking miracle run and guaranteed
guaranteed their play. If they'd if they'd beaten the
Mongols in the semi final, they would have got a stage 2 invite
after being woeful for nine months.
That's the real problem. So therefore it's not based on

(26:10):
performance and consistency, it's based on how you perform in
the in the two months before themajor.
Yeah, that's. Which I think is I think the
only thing is. Exactly what you would have done
at an RMR anyway. Yeah, except without any of the
hype is literally just taken away all of the the fun bits of
the RMR and distilled it into pure like mechanical nonsense.

(26:30):
That that's the issues, that we still have an RMR system, but an
RMR system that doesn't work as well.
And also I think it cuts out more teams than the RMR did.
The RMR would have more new teams like so many careers of
players in like who have won majors who've been in the top
happened because of the old major system like Jane and

(26:50):
Avingar. Like they only existed because
of the like the CIS minder that people hated so much.
Chopper a major winner. If you're as came through a
Vegas squadron, if you're a small team, you know, getting
stickers, whether it's your as player, like there are players
who've made one major who can basically live off the sticker
money. Yeah.
Yeah, like the impact of that ishuge.

(27:13):
And if you are from a poorer country, an Asian country, CIS
country where, you know, there are Korean, Germany, this is
your way. And the fact that people like
Mischief CS2 and Jasper Larson have to put these fucking tweets
out every other day. Yeah.
To explain how the system works.And I'll just look at it and go,
yeah, sounds on the invites. Yeah.

(27:35):
And also, HLTV operate the bloody fucking system anyway.
So why? I mean, what Val come up this
idea, they blow blow everything that's already existed out of
the water, everything that were people enjoyed.
Bear in mind, major season was was awesome, you know?
Yeah. Casual fans, you know, Elliot,
you've had a fucking baby. You've been busy.
I'm sure you would have probablywatched the RMR and shit though.

(27:56):
Yeah, Yeah, I would. I would have.
Given a fuck. It's I loved.
The RMRS absolutely love the I used to watch the CIS minor like
I was that kind of freak. I used to watch CIS minor.
I called Dream Eaters being goodwell before ANYWAYS, I won money
on Dream eaters making it out ofthe out of the early rounds of

(28:17):
the major. I wouldn't like I bet on them at
75 to 1 to get out of them out of the group.
I think like because I actually watched from the CIS minor.
I adored the RMRS. I thought they would the RMRS
into the major was like the bestmonth of counter strike.
The the major that much sweeter as well.
And then we have to pretend. That was there.
Like that was the story. For the teams that were there,

(28:39):
you'd already grown to love them.
In a way. Right now it's like, oh, it's
the same, the same teams you expect to be here, Yeah.
And this is the issue right? Like.
It's it's just what? You lose in terms of the the
magic of Counter Strike rather than yeah.
Like. As a thought experiment, do you

(29:02):
honestly? Can you honestly tell me 100%
that BC game are worse than SAW?No worse than the.
Than the 10 teams that are have a chance to make in the major
like the system. Like you are telling me no, no
you're not telling me this is the the royal you like this is
devalve. Like you're telling me you would

(29:23):
rather see Saul make it to the major because they did well.
They sort of did well at a fucking Thunder pick 25 years
ago than watch simple try and qualify from an RMR with four
absolute bombs on his team. Like absolutely not absolutely
prime dumps 3 bombs. Shut up.
Absolutely. BC game, BC game at the RMR

(29:43):
would have been absolute cinema and instead I have to watch
fucking star ladder and try pretend to care about gentle
mates. Let's not pretend you watch
Star. Ladder.
Well, I. I did.
I actually did a lot of researchbefore Star ladder and then
didn't. But that's not the point.
Like I have to pretend to care about whether gentle mates beat
paravision in the quarterfinals.I I do not care and I shouldn't

(30:07):
have to care, no but and also. What a gentle.
What a gentlemate. Doing it.
I'm sorry. WG should be nowhere near a
major. The only reason that team was
ever watchable with Sun Pious and they massively downgraded on
him. They should not be anywhere near
a major. I don't care if they're actually
good, they just shouldn't be there.
I I just don't want to watch them, I mean.

(30:28):
But it's also just another problem though, is Valve made
all these fucking ridiculous rules about when you have to
announce a tournament, when you have to say what visa region
it's in, what, what fucking cityit takes place in, all this
random fucking bullshit and thendon't.
Do it themselves. And they also don't enforce it
either. So there's lots of teams they

(30:48):
don't do. It they just don't enforce it in
the site. So then the schedule gets
announced and suddenly there's no room for an RMR regardless.
Like you can't actually even have an RMR anymore.
They're saying murder's illegal.But having no police force to,
to, to tackle it is what they'vedone.
Yeah, don't do this and but don't do it and that's it.
But I also think. I'm I'm getting annoyed and
we're already 32 minutes into this podcast and we've we've

(31:12):
gone nowhere. So I'm going to cut this
conversation. We all hate the IRS.
It's so I'll go back to the RMR move on Navi one star ladder.
Do we care? No, if they.
Didn't win no right? No, it just.
It just. Doesn't mean anything does it?
Like it literally is this just this thing of even though we
know Navi shit like if they didn't win this no no matter how

(31:35):
much we like nip, no matter how good we think they are, nor they
had to win this event and if they didn't they actually needed
to blow up the team like brutally by that.
I just hope this I. Hope this doesn't.
Do the. The Spirit of.
Shanghai effect, right? Where like this roster lives a
bit longer because of this? Like they still need to make

(31:57):
further changes. I think everyone's aware of
that, right? Yes they do.
I just hope this doesn't. Give them the false corners.
Oh, maybe it's all right. I have a feeling.
That they know it's not all right.
It'll be fine. It'll be fine.

(32:17):
That's. Right.
Anyway, we were talking about. Talking about BC game earlier,
that was only because I scrolleddown the list and saw them.
I forgot that actually take of the week was simple.
Who should be at the RMR and isn't complaining about his
games being boring and waiting for a real opponent to humble
him? If you could direct your eyes to
the screen. Second screen watchers A Lions.

(32:43):
The 30 year old twists, 2020. 5.Bent over symbol is that it's
twist. It's twist.
I think I was fucking rubbing. I've felt realise.
I've always I always like Swedish teams, but Twisted 2025
being simple 20 and I think, I think Inferno particularly was

(33:03):
really good. What?
Was it you said about prime taps?
Literally seconds ago. I mean I.
Don't really know any of us on the.
Team, I'll be honest, just the name that BC game.
Team fucking stinks and it like Andy like Sasanito was like.
Fine, right? Wasn't he on Apex?
Sasanito's like low. Key appalling.
Yeah, he's low key, like really bad, but he just, he's got a

(33:26):
cool name and like he looks. No, it's stupid.
Never like he kind of looks. He's got the name of a player
who could be good and like you see, like the odd highlight and
he had all this hype and then you actually watch him and he's
like he's really bad for given the given the hypey hand and the
like the positions he played andthe way he plays, He's like like
really quite rubbish. And the fact he's getting like,

(33:50):
was it undo on? Was he on Gay Malaysian?
Yeah, and they. Booted him because he was crap.
No, I think it's. Anyway, he's prime.
Taps is just like the Tesco to Tysian's little like he's not
very good. That's.
Sorry, that's harsh. On tisian TC was hard, on tisian
was saucy. Tisian was the best.

(34:10):
Player No No, no, no, no, no, nono.
No, no, Tisian wasn't great and he definitely wasn't saucy.
He was. Oh, it's.
To be clear. Poisonous.
Sauce that kills you baby Tips went 12.
And 28 against fucking alliance Tisian.
Tisian was not good but he was like he was like Taco for big

(34:32):
like he was he was little Taco Prime taps is like fucking like
Rd. kill. Who else fits in this in?
This thing like bar up is like sorry just just.
Fat Mexican guy or he's Taco forbig place he's holding.
He's holding, he's like hole in the wall Taco place and not not
like a hole in the like an actual hole in the wall that

(34:53):
somebody's left some food in. Also, just to be clear.
Techno is the Waitrose of this. Of this group of people.
Techno's like. He's not the guy you think.
He is Elliot. No, but he should have been.
Techno's like, you know what, some M and S s.

(35:16):
Have a food section next one. Your Nan goes there to.
Buy clothes and then you can also just buy a really expensive
salad or something, right? Techno is like.
The Five Guys bit. What's bit hand bow?
Hand bow. Fair enough.

(35:36):
Like he's not fast food. But he's not, you know, he's not
specially handmade either. Yeah, anyway, we, we we got to
cut to an ad break. That's what that's what the
rules say. So enjoy Raid shadow legends or
whatever it is. So, Jack, do.
You find it hard to keep up withall the news and counter strike
I do. I took a.
Weekend off and I came back to six new IG LS3 retirements and

(36:00):
apparently now these waterfall got picked up by a top 20 team,
right? That's why.
I've been relying on the TLDR newsletter.
It's a bi weekly, the mail that keeps you up to speed on
everything in the CS scene without needing scroll Reddit
for three hours while questioning your life choices.
Yeah, it's like if. HRTV had a baby with your
funniest friend who actually watches every game yet.

(36:21):
Quick hits of news, spicy officer moves, upcoming match
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Bull killer, no filler, and let's be honest, some of.
These tournament formats you need a guide just to figure out
who's playing who. TLDR breaks it all down so you
actually know what the Hell's going on.
Plus, it's funny. Like, actually funny.
It's like reading a group chat between smart CS fans who roast

(36:43):
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(37:05):
You don't have time to read everything you still want to
sound like you did. All right, Hope you all enjoyed
that. Blatant add I mean it's not we
hit it. I even, I even called it in.
We're back with Fisher Playground 2, which I'll be
honest with you, when I heard there was an event called Fisher

(37:26):
Playground 2, I immediately likelocked it out of my brain in
Thunder. Is it an Animal Crossing mini
game? That's what it should be.
You lose all your animals in a fish.
Here you have an earthquake. It destroys your whole.
No like like a fishing game. Like a fishing mini game.
Oh, fishing playground. Yeah, fishing Mama too.

(37:49):
Anyway, it's good event. Yeah, it.
Was great. It was great.
I mean what? Like really what more can you
ask for? Like the the free best teams in
the world weren't there, which is kind of nice at this point.
A Swiss Bo free group stage justbest possible thing and a fury

(38:12):
among goals final like ABO 5 all.
Five yes, 5 good nows. As well I did.
I'm going to stir the. Pottle, over here, you say the
three best teams in the world weren't here.
How far away are Furia from the third best team in the world?
I mean, the Mongols are the bestteam in the world.

(38:32):
They call each other for the rankings.
I would say so. I think Fury and now.
It's weird because I don't. Think that people would consider
the Mongols in this category. I think they'd consider Mongols
above this slightly and they're like, like there's vitality in

(38:59):
spirit and then there's mouse and then there's the Mongols.
And maybe they should be equal. And then there's Fury.
Yeah, that was kind of going to be and.
Then there's Fury. I would put and.
Fury in G2. Now like cloud. 9.
Slash gambit of the next major I'd put.

(39:20):
Falcons, Mongols, Maus tied to 3rd place.
Actually I would put. Falcons behind Furor in G2 What
has this Falcons roster done to recency bias?
No, but what has this Falcons roster?
Done suggest that. They are above.
Fewer energies. Recency biases are crazy things.
By that like, yeah, no, Australis are great because they

(39:41):
were fantastic in 2018. Of course we have fucking
recency bias. What else?
You're going to base it on what happened a year ago?
But in all seriousness, what has?
This Falcons team done to suggest that they are better
than when they had magics. Because in my.
Eyes. They're clearly worse than when
they have magics. And it does.

(40:02):
And they are. Showing that firepower isn't
anything isn't everything because they are playing worse
with worse role balance in the team and I hate.
To be that guy. Roles also aren't real I.
Hate to be that guy, but. I don't think they're in the top
five at the moment. Manasi isn't particularly good
right now, No, I think that's. The big thing he's been, modesty

(40:25):
has been like, yeah, all that. He.
Needs a they they need. Someone.
That isn't just. Filling spots because they don't
have the person that fills it yet.
Like they need Bit or Jim Fat badly.
I think Falcons, Jim Fat's been.On No, he has, but that's

(40:45):
because. Sphinx took all of his space.
If he goes into Falcons, he getshis space back and he's probably
a lot better again. Does he?
Does he get all of his space back?
In this team, yeah. It was promised to him with.
Niko and Kaisuke. Yeah, because they're very
aggressive and he isn't. Yeah.

(41:06):
Why wouldn't he get his space? Back I don't know, I feel like.
Somebody was just poor Rag. Could be like no, I'm also
taking your space. Jimmy's not the thing.
I don't. Argue.
Is he? I'm not sure.
Niko and Kaisuke. Can both be Uber aggressive?
No, but you have has to stop. You have Niko be this.
Aggro lurking, half lurking bullshit, whatever the fuck

(41:27):
Harry calls it nowadays you haveKiosuke in the pack or you
fucking swap those two round, itdoesn't matter.
And and Jim Fat can be a passivelurker again.
Not whatever the fuck he does now, because Sphinx has to take
everything. Sorry guys, I need my 2.
Kills from behind, pure round. Otherwise I'm not playing.
Yeah, like that. That's why.

(41:49):
That is him give me that's why given.
Fat. Give me eco frags or I that's.
Why, given fat hasn't been very good?
Like, yeah. But he's he's basically just
like. Glorified.
Anchor now I appreciate that, but like his stock is going to.
Go has gone down. Because of that, right?
Yeah. And that is kind of how.
Falcons base, their transfers are like who's got the most

(42:09):
stock? Who's got the most clout?
What they they basically? Just like.
Sought by Twitter followers. They'll probably sign like when
there's a they're going. To sign no cross to be to be
clear, I. Don't think Jim Fat is the one
that Mal should sign. I think bit is.
I think bit is yeah. Anyone who can sign bit should
I? I when I was when I was doing

(42:29):
some research the other day, I was like, I just came to the
conclusion that there's just nobody as good at bit as what he
does. They just say Teesside bit is.
The better Tessa's replacement than Jim Fat and Teesside.
He's he's the best person to fill what they need.
I I. Think he's the best anchor.
Just generally I don't think there's anyone unless you like

(42:51):
count like rocks as that sort ofthing.
But even then, like if you look at bits like rating over the
last 6 to 12 months in the roleshe plays that it's absolutely
like almost. Incomparable.
Like he's so. Good throwing.
Yeah, On on a team that isn't that good to have high numbers
of anchors. You've got Emma and Alexi.
Screaming at each other while you're trying to hold a side.
I'm still doing it. Yeah, but like in.
Fact. It's bits like barely literate.

(43:13):
A bit is exceptional, and I'd also.
Like to point out by the way. I'd.
Also like to point out 2025 he'sgot a .12 higher rating on
Teesside. Like that's not yes.
He's he's crazy. He's something good.
Hang on, hang on a second. Really.
Silly. Look, why is he even an?

(43:33):
Anchor like why is he not the best player in the world?
I just want to see him set free.The CT side win.
What actually is not the CT? Side win rate because wonderful
is also like massively higher rated on T side than CT side
like. Wonderful is 1.1. 5T side one

(43:54):
point OK it's gone up from star ladder.
It was like 1.05 CT side or something.
It's now 1.09 like this isn't normal even in a T side meta
like these are big differences. Yeah, Navi.
Just don't have a star player. That's kind of their problem.
I think Mccarzee's getting there.

(44:15):
I do like Bacardi. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, like that's not. There's lots of criticism of
Mccasi. He's he will be a very most kind
of. CT, you know, I think he's the
only one on the team, Emma is the only one on the team that in
2025 has a higher CT side ratingthan T side.
Wow. Yeah, but isn't that also feels?

(44:36):
Like wonderful has a crazy high teeside rating and a really bad
CT. I'd say really bad.
Like no, but the the rest of them are.
All by a similar margin. I'm just checking JL for the
sake of it. No, but I'm just saying like.
Historically offers do battle onCT, right?
Yeah, yeah, much better, but. So.
But but the the. Thing is like Navi or like CT

(44:58):
side is so much more about like individual firepower and outside
of bit, I don't think that there's a single one of them
that actually is well, I think Ithink as.
Well, the CT, the shots you takeas an au porn CT are also
they're the ones that Navi with wonderful whiffs.
They're the shots he has a problem with.
Well, the. Easy ones when the guys just.

(45:19):
Walks into your cross there, yeah.
Yeah, those ones. Yeah, it's very draining.
Region, but yeah. Get bit on Falcons and we can
talk about them being good. If not, then how many teams did
I mention? Six.
So they're the 7th best team in the world right now and I refuse
to accept a voice. Just back onto the event itself.

(45:40):
Though Yeah, this is furious. First year 1 trophy?
Yes, it is almost. Well, they entered CS in and
it's a team we've fallen on. Which is fucking.
They entered CS in. 2017. And Keisrau.
And Yuri were promoted 18 monthslater or something like that.
So it's it's about an 8 year wait, just under 8 years.
Can you? Jamie, pull that up.

(46:02):
Can you get the Fury like their debut roster?
Like the first roster, that old card?
Andy J? Not Andy J He's he's, I think
what's his name? Abel J.
That's Abel J. Remember him?
But was go all times furious first?
Roster so Vinny was there I'm. Not sure I can say that.
Yeah, I was bit. Spatcher, Spatcher.

(46:24):
Let's. Go Thatcher, PRD Gary.
Cake Kai. It's Kai K, which is also K
Sararto. 'S first name Vinny, yeah.
And a guy called Slayer as a coach and yeah, and then the
one, the one. We all know was Art, Yuri, Vinny
Able, JK Sararto. So yeah, and simple for a day

(46:48):
look. I get it and then.
Then they had. Then they had simple for a lot
longer. Hey, remember they had.
Honda for like a week, yeah, really bad.
So yeah, they were level. 7 So that's.

(47:08):
A joke. For somebody, they.
They. Got good quite quickly and it's
kind of incredible that they never actually won anything
until now. They were always like.
Sort of in the tier they are nowthough, which was like 5th.
Like they were like the best team in the world or even
particularly close to it. And then like they always felt

(47:29):
like they were one move away andthen every move they made to to
make them get further away. That's not what he thought.
It's been for two. Years the crazy.
The crazy thing about it though is that they were they were in
the position they are now in the5th best team in the world
category in probably the only time in CS where the 5th best
team in the world didn't win anything ever now.

(47:50):
If you're the 5th best team. In the world, you're going to
win one or two trophies a year. You just will only.
In sort of these ones though, no?
Like it's a fucking $1,000,000 event.
Well, yeah, trophy. The trophy.
Trophy. Well, yeah, yeah, but like.
I don't remember this happening last year.
What do we have? It was the. 5th best team.
Last year dog show, though my uncle's only.

(48:12):
One Tier 2. Events.
Yeah, yeah. But like.
No, Yeah, you'd win a. Yallocampus or a Mason.
But there was also. There was also.
Like slightly less events last year as well.
Yeah, there's also. I mean.
I just, I don't think. We actually mentioned it, but
like Fisher and Star Ladder wereon at the same time, which is,

(48:32):
yeah, which is kind of cool actually.
Well. I mean it honestly.
Caused issues with invites and stuff.
It meant I barely watched Star. Ladder.
I watched Nick exclusively. It does mean like if you're ACS.
Fan There's a higher chance yourteam will blame this weekend.
Can I? Can I also?
Just say the experience. No, my team doesn't.

(48:54):
Exist for seven years. The experience I'm watching.
On kik wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
Yeah, but like. Can we just.
I just thought it would be a shit.
Website that buffers all the time.
It's just train, train. It's just.
Twitch in green It's oh, Twitch buffers all.
The time for me where I comparedto that which Kik didn't once.

(49:16):
So honestly, that's quite nice. I'll be honest, this is.
The. This is the least interesting
conversation of the podcast. No, it is.
I tend to watch. The YouTube anyway though.
For most things, but it wasn't bad.
And honestly, if they're on Kik,it means they're getting paid to
be on Kik, which is good. More money in this ecosystem,
which is good. Let's talk about.
Please sponsor. Us.
Let's talk about. Liquid versus Aurora.

(49:40):
Does this mean liquid? Are actually kind of good even
though they're dead? Or does it mean Aurora just
horrendous in play? Like I said a year ago and
shouted out, this is just one ofthe.
Like, oh, the team's dead, so now we're going to play well,
bullshit things that happens occasionally in counter strike
like this was So what this this does happen.

(50:04):
The thing with the thing with Aurora being bad in playoffs,
when I shouted you down for thatis it was just kind.
Of too early to say. It you can say it as some bold
prediction type thing, but that's not how you said it at
the time. But like the point is you do
just have to give up on them now.
Like they're just not fucking good enough.
They don't. They're not.
Just don't think they've ever. Been as good as their rank is

(50:26):
like how the highly right they've been others like that
were they? Were they 6 at one point?
No, I think at one point they. Were the 6th best team in the
world, but it's the type of likeOh yeah in the sense the broken.
Clock is right twice a day. But no, no, they just had.
They just had. Yips on stage?
No, but it's just like. It's more just in the context of

(50:48):
they're the 6th best team in theworld because the other teams
aren't as good right now becausethe other teams are
transitioning and like bringing up a new roster.
Like all all this bullshit that makes a team like Aurora for a
short period of time be the 6th best team in the world.
Now they're probably what the. 9th best team in the world. 8th
best team in the world. Like least stinkiest turd is.

(51:11):
What we're getting at, it's a good place for them to be and.
I don't even think it's stage hips.
I think it's just. They're just as.
It's just how good they are, butthey've lost.
They just lose every game on stage man.
Also Zantaro games they were. Winning a group.
Of stages I didn't characteristically shit.

(51:31):
In this series, yeah, like, but I.
Feel like Zantaros has. Been worse this year in general.
Yeah, he has. But yeah, well, he's.
Like 30 now. Time for a long time.
As we said before, Ricardi is a bit of a myth.
I like Wikidia. He's.
A myth he. Goes missing.
They're tactically not particularly strong and like the

(51:53):
one thing, the one thing I will say about Liquid, they've had
some pretty crappy results, but like growth.
In CS isn't. Typically a straight line and
they have, even with the team likely being dead for longer
than we realized. They have been kind of steadily.
Improving. No, we we knew but like when

(52:17):
when Faye signed Jacob we thought the twist thing was
dead. So like they have been steadily
improving since Flashy came in? Yeah.
I. Still think this is like it's a.
It's a better result for Liquid than you'd expect, but say say a

(52:39):
leash was in the team and they had that true aggro rifler.
Probably the result I'd expect, but I would expect that team
with a leash in place of Twist to be Aurora.
What do you do about nerds? You so you have to hope.
He steps up when there's a real aggro rifer on the team, and if

(52:59):
he doesn't, you get rid of him. Yeah, you.
The problem is like he's he's ina team that is really not built
to use him. And I think that's kind of not
entirely his fault. Like we know Nerds is good.
Like that's, you know, like we all know Nerds is good.
We've all seen, we've all got eyes, we've all seen it like it.
This is not he's just the victimof a pawn.

(53:20):
Builder. Yeah, and like how many times
it? Like this happens on Liquid all
the time. Like they build teams.
I used to refer to the old roster as the Jager Bomb roster
because it two players who just like ran in and then the other
two wanted to sit back and they had like was it OC in the middle
trying to hold it together like a roster?
Yeah, that. One, yeah, Patsy, who's like the

(53:42):
most aggressive player in the world, and Rainwick, who's the
most passive. He had like one guy in the
middle was like your heart trying to deal with like Red
Bull on one side and fucking alcohol on the other.
He knows they've really signed some.
Really weird teams. Like they like they tried to
make skulls. Worth.
I don't. I don't know if Mr. Mr. Joker
Steve is the guy who does like that sort of stuff.

(54:03):
Does he watch the? Evidently not.
Wasn't. Ultimate was A twist pickup
wasn't it? I believe.
So and ultimate is also. Like, I mean, he was good when
he stood up and he was a bit crap, and now he's a bit better.
He's like, fine, yeah. Like, hey again, he's probably.
The ceiling of this team ultimate is just like.
Ultimate is a guy who passes theeye test as like if you've got a

(54:24):
lazy eye. Yeah, like.
If you're. If you're sort.
Of casually watching he passed yeah yeah, like, because.
Even in that it was the first game they played VP on ancient I
believe it was his first map andliquid one in overtime and
ultimate went on a heater in overtime.

(54:47):
But if you actually watched it you realise he was quite slow.
He took a lot of risks that would obviously eventually get
punished and like he wasn't as fast as he looked and like his
positioning was just very odd. And then you see it in games a
lot now still where he just getscaught in some very strange
positions that you never see overall operas get caught in.

(55:09):
And yeah, you, you are right, Jack.
He will be if if they get in a legion at least as well and
Nurse picks up. Naf stays on his current form
because Naf has like Naf is for all.
Intents and purposes back. I know everyone's going to clown
on him the second he has a bad game, but he's been pretty good
recently. Ultimate will be the the fucking

(55:30):
deceiving of the team. Caveat of NAF he.
He's also been like, really shitbefore he was good again.
Yeah, he should have like he. Should have been off the team
but they should be thanking themselves that they didn't cut
him because they wouldn't have got any more better than that if
they bring. In a Liege instead of twists.
Are they now a Polish team? Food for thought.

(55:53):
They should be. Actually, no, they shouldn't be.
Because the Polish isn't Markovich like a.
Balkan, the Polish fans are so. Deranged.
They're as bad as Turks. They're actually as bad as
Turks. Like they're mental.
I I love the. Turks though, they're all good.
I'll I like. The actually I like the.
Polish. I like when, I like when.

(56:14):
Sponge retweets tweets from Turkish people that have been
directed at him. That's just the most abhorrent
shit you've ever read. Yeah, it's great.
Although the best slander was. Truckload of U boats though.
I think that was in Spanish or Portuguese.
What was it? Son of A.
Truckload of U boats. It actually was mentally son of
a whore and it just translated so abhorrently wrong.

(56:36):
Amazing. Like how do you?
Hate that. Yeah.
It's so strange though, because that only.
Translated wrong for us in the UK and when we got like the
American people in TLDR to translate it came out as sons of
whores. Son of a bitch.
Yeah, it's just. Yeah, well.
American Americans. Not real English as well, true.
Actually, I'm glad. We've been we've been here over

(56:58):
an hour as we get to the final. Let's get to the final because
it was good. People, honestly, I'm sick of
talking about liquor. I feel like I'm I feel like
they're the only team who ever gets talked about and they're
always in some sort of crisis. Let's talk about teamwork, doing
things well. Furia Moladoy is just He's just
so good. How?
Is he so good? What why?

(57:19):
Why is he on fury? Why didn't like somebody good
sign him by the power of Internet magic, you've you've
not lost any time, but I just like teleported through time for
a few minutes. I'm now back.
I was before I was who won the major?
Who won the major? Tell us it was.
It was Nip, come on, Indication.Now do it again and.

(57:42):
Say G2 and then do it again and say Furia and we can click the
ball. It was G2.
I tell you it won't. Be yeah, do this as well, Venom.
Team Venom. Team Venom have not won the.

(58:03):
Major, I was going to tell you it won't be the Mongols, but
actually that's a very brave shout.
But they did lose to Furia, and I was just before I went, I was
just ranting about how is Moladoy so good and why did
nobody else sign him first? Because Fury or a Brazilian
team? Well, yeah, so it's.
A game elite in DD OK but like he's.

(58:23):
He is laughing. And he didn't Heroic.
Were Heroic also interested in Moladoy?
I think her over after him as well.
Yeah. But but why was?
Like you know why didn't navigate?
Well, because. Tell me Poker star.
Poker Star. Is all OK, how much you want
well, so like. At the time he joined Furia he
had what was it, 50 HLTV maps. Not matches maps right?

(58:45):
Some something silly. And he was playing for Amcal.
So what I'm questioning is how often do the teams that were
above Furia Heroic and Game Legion at the time play practice
against Amcal? Because like Moladoy has said or
Fallen has said, one of them, the reason that they went for
him is because in practices, Moladoy was dropping 40 in every

(59:08):
map that they played against Fury.
He obviously just absolutely. Fingered them in a scrim.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, no, it's
kind of like what happened when Miles played against G2.
Right on that. Yeah.
Yeah. Just Dick them.
And they're like, Oh well. Why don't everyone else?
Have this guy. So, so we'll start.
He's just, he's just so. Good and but as well like

(59:28):
credit. To fallen for.
Recognizing that he might have been a problem and also credit
to him for becoming a a solid anchor player.
Yeah, yeah, like he's there's never a point where you also
think is a problem. Fallen's.
Fallen's got something. To teach to one of those as

(59:49):
well, right? If you're a young opera and you
get the chance to have, you know, one of the best operas of
all time, I think you I couldn'tjump on.
That right there's. Also as well like.
Yukinda who just. Like his?
Redemption arc is. Your time on liquid doesn't
count. Yeah, no, his redemption arc is.
Probably one of the best in CS history, if not the best.

(01:00:10):
But it's, it's just, it's reallynice to watch, isn't it?
Go on, Ellie, I can see you. Charging in CS history.
The best, yeah. It's certainly one.
Hang on. Hang on if.
It's not him then. Honestly, it's and this probably

(01:00:31):
does make it because it's a major it's it's raining.
OK, Zipnix for a start, he was almost cut from Australia
several times. OK.
Majesque. Was on Optic, Carrigan was on
Team Envy. Yeah, but no like I.
Think, I think that was just that was.
Just everyone knew that was. No, he was cut.

(01:00:53):
He was cut from punishment than anything from phase.
He was not the. Phase that was just so we could
play the. Game for a bit like some team.
Ended like. He was, he was playing with
Cutler and nifty, I think, Android.
As well, isn't that too much crazy?
They had, I think they had two Orpers.
And they would, I would say. Like a real good one is rain,
but the Stockholm MVP, no Antwerp MVP.

(01:01:15):
I was going to be the wrong. Way.
Fucking around. Like I think that's a really
good one. For years he was highlighted as
the problem on phase. There's no way you kinda going.
From like a bad spell at liquid to being pretty good on Furor is
the best. He was on liquid of like 3.
Years. Yeah, yeah, sure.
But. He was, so he.
Was so awful, like so he was, but he was good before.

(01:01:38):
That it's not like I think the difference.
It well, that's why it's the reason.
Why I think it's different? Like it wasn't.
But the reason why I think it's Ukinda.
Is because perception of Carrigan didn't change as much
as it did for Ukinda. Yeah, yeah.
Brollam. Apex.

(01:01:59):
Apex is Apex a redemption? Honestly maybe though I.
Think it might be, is it? I would say so.
I mean, he was getting cut from teams and then has built the
best he's won two made us. An IGL man.
Yeah. Yeah, but even like before.
He was IGL in vitality. He was like a OK piece.

(01:02:20):
I I hate. This answer but Alexi B.
That's a good one. That's A.
Very good one, but I think that's another one where like
only the fucking like real fucking Dick heads thought.
That Alexi B wasn't. Decent.
But he was just on some crap. Teams and completely fucked him

(01:02:42):
over. Like I just think the Ikinda
one, like the perception of him was so bad because he was so
terrible. Like Carrigan?
Everyone knew that, you know, Cloud 9 was Carrigan's fault,
and it was clear it affected hisconfidence and all that.
And it it took him a couple years to get that back.
For years, maybe. But the perception of Carrigan

(01:03:05):
was he's still always one of thebest ideals in the world.
You came down like people thought he was a fucking bum.
Like, stop playing level bum. Yeah.
Snappy. Yeah, he's one of them as well.
He was also an optic. What did Snappy have to?
Redeem, though in the nicest way.

(01:03:27):
Was that stuff? He's like prime.
Career was like after 30. He was like a Tier 2 Danish.
RGL right and then he was like I'm old he like he I mean he.
Took heroic to like the edges oftier one with like after losing
all of his good players to Australis and N every like week.
And then he was. Like just just consigned to

(01:03:48):
misery for a few years and then who was also took ends?
Who was the other player in thatteam?
Because it. Was like snappy muddy S tag
Yugi. Freiburg.
Oh yeah, it. Always, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was. Yeah, no.
He had garbage to work with. He made Yugi look like fucking
Moladoy. He did, actually.
Yugi looks so Yugi so careful. But yeah.

(01:04:11):
Yugi was so fucking fine one time Australis.
Nitro, Nitro. Out of redemption?
That's a good one. That's a very good one actually.
I forgot that was a redemption. Maybe that's maybe it's Nitro
actually. Anyway, I mean I.
Don't know even. Stewie 2K back to the fucking
final. Regardless regardless great

(01:04:36):
game, really great game like good counter so many.
Comebacks. So many good rounds, had some of
the best comebacks counter. Strike it, Moladou is great.
Yukinda is great, Kay Serato was.
Kay Serato and Yuri have some really big rounds.
Like I know you can look at the scoreboard, it looks like they
weren't that great. They fucking were watch

(01:04:58):
together. Yeah, Kay Serato's always.
Good. Like even in Kay Serato's bad,
he's still good. Yeah.
Yeah, he still. Just will have a most around but
shouldn't be one my. Overriding thought, every time I
see K Serato is when he was linked with MIBI years and years
ago before Fury were any good. Like in like 2016 I asked some

(01:05:20):
Brazilians like what's he like and one of them just said 2.2
cents helicopter only sees heads.
Ever since then I've liked him because that's just one of the
best tweets I've ever seen that there was no word wasted in that
tweet. 2.2 cents helicopter onlysees heads and to this day
entirely true. I just love that.

(01:05:40):
Absolutely right. He was like, Nah, I'll.
Never join the European team. And they were like, OK, we'll
just bring Europeans to you then.
That's fine. Yeah, you're going to win one
one way or another. So yeah, we're going to like he
wants to. Stay in Brazil.
He wants to play with Fallen. OK, we can make that happen.
Also. We're replacing Fallen on the
orb. Yeah.
You can play with. Fallen also like this final.

(01:06:01):
Like such a good way to just kill a fucking stage shitters
narrative because Fury have had some issues on stages.
Major core final blast London. They didn't look great on stage
coming here. The fucking great show.
A lot of resilience as well, which is typically an issue for
the stage shitters teams. Like closing shit out.

(01:06:22):
OK, they had that issue on Nuke and then they just battered the
overtime. This team is 100.
Percent a top five team in the world.
Yeah, and on that it's good for the Mongols that Senzu is good
on stage as well. Senzu's had real problems on
stage and he actually was not one of the players who, I mean,

(01:06:43):
I mean, it's to be honest, even though you can look at two
players who went horribly negative, I think in a game this
good, it's like harsh to pick out anyone.
And I'm not just saying that because it's techno.
No, but no. No but.
Techno. Backgrounds he.
Did. Yeah, exactly.
And also techno's like. The techno being 4/4 fifth is
probably correct for me I'd. Say if you go through the match

(01:07:04):
though. I'm pretty sure that, you know,
the top player alternates or it changes for like.
For me, I'd say much. Yeah, Blitz.
Is a slight. Disappointment, and that's
probably the only one, because Iactually think Blitz is, you
know, he's pretty strong. He can play.
Yeah, especially like he's like Joe.
You kind of want him to be. Bond, you just don't want him to
be -26 but like, yeah, that's it, right?

(01:07:26):
I still think this is a tournament that.
The Mongols should win if. Yeah, but losing.
To Fury is fine. Fury in ABO five he goes all
five. You're like OK, we should win.
But like I know. But I just think like.
They would have also lost it to Bo. 3 I think.

(01:07:46):
Longevity wise, just wanted to check.
Recently bias. Longevity wise like.
Yes Mongols deserve to be where they are, but when it gets to
the end of the year and I know world ranked fucking 2 is kind
of ridiculous, they're not the second best team in the world.
But like by. The end of the year, Do you

(01:08:06):
think Fury would be above the Mongols?
Oh. When they'll probably.
Both be fighting for 3rd that both when for when.
Fallen lifts that major trophy. Yeah, well, his dog comes with
him. Too, now that is.
The best redemption story in Counter Strike history that
would fall and win to the next major.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I mean I I.

(01:08:30):
Love Fallen. Oh, I think Fallen's fantastic.
He's just. Wonderful.
He's just. He's he is.
He's just awesome. He's top player, he is.
He's a great player. He is mount.
Rushmore, he. Is one of the heads on.
He's the Mount Rushmore. He's the whole.
He is. He's the stone.
Should we? Should We should.
We end the episode in that way. Who's Mount Rushmore?
The Mount Rushmore, Yeah. Can we can.
We do go onwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:08:54):
Fallen. Fallen simple.
Simple. Cyber.
Forest Olaf Meister. I feel like you've got to have
cyber Man I. Was going to say Oh no, it's.
Always. It's always.
Definitely not. If you could, no.
I'd rather have. Like Glaive on there than him.

(01:09:14):
But yeah, you need someone from a Charles.
It's probably device I think. It's glaive I've.
Device was on that team for ages.
Glaive was on it just before the.
I think you can make a bigger. Argument for glaive than you can
device. I think device it takes too long
to explain. I don't it takes it takes too
long to explain. I do think device is the best

(01:09:36):
auper of all time, but it takes too long to explain why I think
that now you're just smoking. Mad packs or something?
But I think there's a bigger argument.
I think no more Moladoy. Moladoy is the best, but there's
a there's a bigger argument. For Glaive to be on the Mount
Rushmore on the basis that he had a bigger hand on, well, on
the presumption that he had a bigger hand in the Australia

(01:09:56):
system than Sonic. OK, so when so?
We've got Clave, we've got Simple, We've got Fallen.
Is it Xybu? I think you have to have forest.
Forest I. Think is is very I.
Think oh you have forest. I personally forest Olaf.
But it also like. Get right or Cyber?
It's it's one of those a role, arole based game.
Like it kind of, but it wasn't arole based.

(01:10:19):
Game and Forest was playing but he was on the original like he
was. Like.
I have friends who watched counter strike to watch Nip and
now don't watch like do you knowwhat I mean?
Like forest like forest for me. Is there a bigger argument, one
of? Maybe the most.
Iconic player, Is there a biggerargument?
For get right though. Personally, no, but.

(01:10:43):
But for like if you ask me. This when I like.
I I think forest is. But for what?
For what? Forest is definitely better,
but. For what Get Right did at the
start. Of CS go two time player of the
world like like I don't know I. Feel like forest is.
More iconic? Yeah, he is.
And I think that's he is how much of when it comes to, but

(01:11:07):
how much of that? Is a face his face is going to
be you can't put get rights faceon a stone.
Like imagine Forrest's face in stone.
Sure, it's a much better stone face, but like how much?
Of that is affected by get right, a lot of it get right
being on knit for too long. Probably quite a lot, but

(01:11:28):
that's. Still, to me that is important
when it comes to I think. Forest got more.
I think Forest got more people into it than get right and as
like an early ambassador of the game, I think that's what's most
important. But our dig.
Like forest was still pretty decent when it's like forest is
like probably. Still good?
Yeah, I think. Forest could join.

(01:11:50):
Alliance or fucking liquid and probably, probably viewing.
I think The thing is actually. Like I'm a bit in love with him,
so maybe. I'm wrong, but you know, I think
realistically that. Probably like CS is broad enough
that Mount Rushmore like if you really want to do it properly,
you have to make like free. You have to have like, yeah,

(01:12:12):
overall, overall, that's why this ability that's like simple
Zywoo Dunk and some of a dickhead.
Probably Forest. And then?
You've got to have like the the important figures one, which is
where you get fallen and glave on it.
Yeah. And you know, again, maybe
forest on that one, but. Like if.

(01:12:33):
Carrigan's in there with a. Shout.
I think he was just too late to the party, but there's there's.
Arguments for so many players like all off should have rushed
all off get right? You can't not make arguments to
them cold Zerah. You can't not make an argument
for him. So I mean man.
We're so blessed in this fuckingE sport man.
Like not, not to end it on A soppy note, but like Counter
Strike's fucking awesome and there's been a lot of good

(01:12:54):
Counter Strike and vRS has its issues, but like we're still, we
are still seeing awesome vRS hasits issues every week, but.
For my money, this is the best. Era of Counter strike.
Into the north issue I would I. Would say we need yeah, exactly
that. That's that's exactly why it's
good. We need N those freaks on here.
We need peak N back. All right, bring back what was

(01:13:17):
peak NA dream. AC Yeah, it was a bloody good
dream. At that though.
It was a. It was a.
Bloody good. Like even.
As someone who wanted Australis to win, I was fucking howling
during that final. It was so funny to watch.
My my only. Regret in life is that MSL.
Got the MVP is I didn't. Is that MSL?

(01:13:38):
Got the MVP. It should have been easy.
It actually should have been easy.
Not better. All right.
Anyway, ever had an MVP in my heart?
Move on. I mean, that's there's nothing
else to talk about. We're talking about two Tornas,
but more. Do you people one?

(01:13:59):
I've been. Yeah, the major is coming up.
Are you sees the cartoon Crazy? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, ESL. Probably she's in 22.
Starts next week. That's it.
I think we're not. Yeah, Pro League.
The major's coming up soon. We'll talk about that.
Oh, my God. Oh.
Wait, it's. Stage one, I was going to say
that Pro League has a fucking awful team, bitch, but it's

(01:14:20):
stage 1, it's stage 1. Let's have a.
Look, let's have a look. Who have we got?
Oh, yeah. Now this is more.
This is more like it. This is what I want to see.
Who the hell is hotter? Oh, it's hotter.
Norbert Duke. Fisher Oh wait, Lampard.
Sorry, Lamparda, Mizu and Frozencan't sound like Pokémon.

(01:14:41):
But isn't, isn't Hotu the team that's like from Siberia or
something? Is that is that hot?
Yeah, yeah. It's something fucking Rooster
Flux. Over.
High, I mean, can we please? Can we?
Please just. Take the spot that rooster have
away. It just doesn't need to exist.
You say that. Have you ever seen?
Terry Play No. Because he's no neither.

(01:15:05):
Have I So how? Do you know he's bad?
How do you know he's on fucking Rooster?
Yeah, if he was good, he wouldn't be that so.
Nicely envisioned it there. Hopefully they do better than
they did at Fisher Playground TNL I'm.
Not one of any of their players,but Jr. is their coach.
Oh, they had a They had. A very awful game yesterday.
He uses the coach. They lost to a team called

(01:15:26):
Batera, which has no players. You want.
I don't care, no. No, no, no, no, guys.
They started over past 12. Or up on Teesside and lost 1614.
How good is that? A really kind of track
scoreline. Right.
I don't know how many teams go through, but it's probably the
ones that are at the top of this.
Probably far too well VP. VP and Heroic won't MATL and

(01:15:49):
that means there's 2 legacy and limb vision NRGN.
RGNRG are good now. OK.
All right, that's. This has been far too long.
We're supposed to be too long. Didn't read and I'm sick of you
people, so I'm going to end the show here.
I've been Jack at Nova H Design on Twitter.
I've been Elliot at. Unemployed at Tesco and I'm
still me. Well.

(01:16:11):
Well, we'll see. We'll see.
See that guys? Thanks a lot.