"Saudi aren't to blame for Impact", ESL Pro League Stage 2 review, and will Spirit win the Major?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Sam. Yeah, mate.
What is Frag Adelphia all about?Well, I thought it was about
North American teams playing fora chance of glory within their
their home nation and also getting a little bit drunk on
the side. I see.
I thought it was that, except itwas really, really drunk.

(00:20):
But apparently no. It's apparently about the most
famous American state, the United Kingdom, coming over and
and qualifying to a major and in that way, as you can

(00:41):
probably see on the screen if you're watching on YouTube.
If you're not well, you should be Fanatic 1 frag Adelphia come.
On. Which does mean that.
Which does mean that Blame F, Cipher, Jambo and Fear will all
be going to the Major. I believe Jacasmo will be back

(01:01):
in like no man's land before theMajor and probably somebody
else. I can't remember who it is
coming here because of course itis.
Yeah, fine. Well, you know, Jacasmo just
left such a lasting impression on me that I forgot who Crim's
even was. Yeah, they they came out on top

(01:21):
after A32 win on 9. Which means 7:00 in the morning.
I think this game finished in inEurope, so all the fanatics fans
would not have watched this, which kind of gets us on to the
first point. I'm just going to go straight
into it on the two minutes in like the the most important game
of fanatics season that the lastspot for the major probably

(01:44):
shouldn't be played at 9:00 in the morning, casted by a guy
called bucket head. No offense.
He was actually, as we just said, off air.
They actually the casting was actually very good, but also it
should have been. It should be being casted by
Harry and Hugo. It's not their fault and like
people should be able to watch the last game for the major.

(02:04):
OK, I think right. I've, I've thought a lot about
this actually, because we'll get, we'll get to the take of
the week in a minute. But I found myself for a moment
at least agreeing with the with the take of the week.
But then. That's that's that's for a

(02:25):
specific reason. There's nothing.
To do with. Well, that's.
The first line. But then the take of the week,
it goes on, we won't go through that even when we get to it and
there's other alternatives. Whatever, whatever The thing is,
The reason I found myself agreeing is because, ignoring
the fact that it was in North America, what happened at Frag

(02:46):
was the perfect storm that made this new system seem incredible.
Because Saul got knocked out in the quarter finals.
So 9 ecstatic OG and fanatic thefinal four at Frag.
Whichever one of them went on and won the event was going to
take the last spot at the major.Now this was also because VP got

(03:06):
kicked out of Sweden. Yeah.
And so, you know, like the devil's advocate in me wants to
say, oh, yeah, but imagine, OK, this was a LAN event in anywhere
in Europe, right, where we can all watch it.
And we're saying up to, to what's the end of this, this
best of five final that means somuch.
And it does sound kind of good. It does sound good.

(03:29):
But the problem is, is I don't think if we keep this system for
another 4 majors we will ever see anything like it again
because so many things had to happen.
I think at the start of the weekend, even when VP were
confirmed to be missing out, fanatics still had like a a 10%

(03:52):
chance. At one point they had a 2.9.
I know they did it at one point,but I feel like it also was
higher at a point after that, I don't know.
I don't know. Well, it's 100% now, so.
They get higher so so many things had to happen for this
where realistically we we can all talk about how amazing it is

(04:12):
right now, but the next time themajor comes around the 16 teams
are probably just going to be confirmed like a week before
yeah and it yeah yeah that magicbeing completely.
Anticlimatic. Yeah, but like even in the
absolute best case scenario, themagic was frag Adelphia, which
is just a just a weird let down in terms of the app like

(04:35):
atmosphere wise. It's just wrong.
As you've mentioned several times in this podcast, and at
the time I never really sort of internalized it.
This has ruined frag Adelphia. Like this is absolutely ruined
frag Adelphia. This is not what Frag Adelphia
is like. Frag Adelphia shouldn't be about
Fanatic 9 OG and ecstatic playing for millions of.
Pounds Charlie go on the go on the just go on the bracket for
this one like Scroll down right.I want you to look at the teams

(04:59):
here. There is one in a team in the
quarter finals. There are two teams from the
Americas in sharks. Of the other teams, I guess that
bounty hunters at the bottom might be NA, but Mars Mars born
NA knocked out in the round of 16.
Skin Rave Brazilian OK Skin raveNA knocked out in the round of

(05:24):
16. I can't see who big beat there
just because of the resolution of what we're looking at, Venom.
Venom. EU team, great.
And then, yeah, so just look at this, like look at the complete
and utter lack of NA teams, right?

(05:44):
And I, I, I couldn't find the tweet because I couldn't
remember who tweeted it. But there's already a thing in
NA where if you if Charlie, you go on to the rankings real
quick, like the vRS rankings forAmericas.
There's already a thing in NA, in NA where they're talking
about the fact that South American teams just have more

(06:07):
vRS events. And This is why when you look at
this of the teams that are qualified for the major, there
are free NA teams. And then in the big fucking land
that they have, it's overrun by South Americans, which is I
guess fine because they're in the same vRS region.
Like I can allow that. I I prefer it wasn't the case,

(06:31):
but OK. And then it's just European
teams, like they don't have enough lands back home like,
and, and that as well. It's like there isn't enough for
the NA scene already. And then they get fucked out of
their own event because people realise that like you have to be

(06:53):
a paedophile when it comes to vRS and like fucking prey on the
little ones. But yeah, I keep.
Yeah, go on. Yeah, I just, I will never, ever
accept the idea that this hasn'truined Frank because I've
watched a large part of the final and I know it went on.

(07:13):
Like which which already means it's ruined by the way, if me
and you are watching any part ofit's already ruined but.
Like I can't imagine that the crowd, like the crowd was making
a lot of noises, but it was mainly just the annoying loud
noises that E sports crowds make.
Like in training, which I was passing in and out of

(07:34):
consciousness during most of thetime that I woke up, it was
because a guy was making train noises.
There was an act which. Is funny.
Yeah, that is funny. That was kind of funny, but
there wasn't much celebration for what was actually happening
and there was some big plays, and I just can't imagine that
would be the same if it was likeNRG versus M18A.

(07:56):
Full best of five. Yeah, it'd be.
It'd be so much better. I will say a complete devil's
advocate. I did see a guy used to play
games, a guy called I think it'scalled Fat Guy on Twitter.
He like American guy and he was like this Frank Adelphia is what
was like amazing to witness for him because I think he's
probably used to watching as we've got on screen lag versus
G3 in the final and he said he actually got to watch like you

(08:19):
know, U KS finest. Yeah, but like the 24 ones
aren't the ones worth looking atbecause it's like the 25 vRS
ones are. Yeah.
And the problem is just like as they've been overran by European
teams, that's the like, that's areal issue like.
Yeah, no, that was, that's just like an old school.

(08:40):
That's how it used to be, right?So Frankville, this is a bit.
That's fine, that's fine. This is the first one.
This is the one that Nip went tofirst, I think.
Yeah. Or it's like the second one
before the teams really realizedlike just how much they could
get from the frag events. Yeah.
And that that looks OK to me. I don't criticize yeah, I I

(09:01):
don't really have an issue with like, you know, Mars born coming
in 5th and 8th that's about where they should be finishing
like yeah, you know, barring something going wrong, like they
they should be finishing that because they're probably one of
the top ten teams in NA, especially when liquid aren't
there and like this is an NA event.
Obviously one spot's taken by anIP, there's a couple taken by
the Brazilians, whatever like but it it yeah, it was a

(09:24):
completely. And and I've seen people say
like, oh, you know, it's an it did what it's supposed to do.
It's like, yeah, but I understand it's within the
rules. I understand how we got here.
That isn't my problem with it isn't that it's legal or like
it's this is completely ruined the spirit of the event.
And when it comes to vRS, I've seen like obviously Mesiosa was
like the go to guy when it comesto vRS fucker.

(09:47):
And he was like, and somebody wrote and I think it was nowhere
to ask about why vRS is bad. He's like, well, pick teams just
don't understand it. Well, yeah, and he made it sound
like that's on them, like a teamshould understand it, and I
agree they should. But also why is it so difficult?
Like surely Messioso knows that there's like 3 people who

(10:08):
understand it and he's one of them.
And that's just because it's hisjob to, yes, there should be
somebody whose job it is on eachteam to understand it.
At least each team, like Navi, don't need to care what the
rules are because they're going to qualify anyway.
But like for like the 20 teams who might qualify, they should
probably know some of this, but then some of them don't have the
budget to have a guy like Mesioso on.

(10:29):
So it's for him to get older. They should just understand vRS.
Well, the IGI has got more important things to worry about
the how the vRS system works or doesn't work.
I I just find that really like, oh, you should just understand
how it works. No, it just, it shouldn't exist.
Like I shouldn't have to. The thing is.
God I hate. It like Charlie pull up the pull

(10:49):
up the take of the week. Let's let's move to the take of
the week to actually like get through this.
Elliot, would you like to to read this out and then I'll
actually give my thoughts. Yeah, I might skip over parts of
it because it's a long tweet. Also by the way, to explain how
actually Australis found at thispoint is the issue people had
with the importance of the RMR or MRQ events was specifically

(11:11):
in relation to the best teams inthe format?
It's probably not good for Vitality to care more about the
qualifier for the major than themajor itself because there is a
genuine worry from the best teams that they could get upset
in ABO one and not qualify despite being a top five team.
Using the current system, Vitality didn't need to worry
about not getting upset in a single Swiss bracket blah blah
blah. For the weakest teams,

(11:32):
qualifying for the major should be as or more important than
whatever performance they give at the major itself.
These are the exact fairy tale storylines you are proclaiming
to be fighting for. Any reasonable methodology of
determining participants at the major will always have teams
fighting to the teeth to qualifyat the end.
And pretending that any error RMR critic actually just wants
all major participants to be decided by magical arbitrary

(11:53):
invites is a pathetic. Straw man OK, OK, so I'm going
to I'm now going to fix the system because I can't.
Right. So one of the points that you
make, Ellie, in response to thisis that you want the the people
who were the best team at the event, as in the RMR, to be the

(12:16):
ones at the major. I think that is kind of stupid,
if I'm being honest, because theRMRS themselves were separate
events of the majors. And sometimes, you know, there
was events in between the majorsand the RMR.
And if you look at certain RMRS,I'm pretty sure Sprout free owed
and RMR, were they the best teamthere?
No, of course they weren't. But and this then goes down to
the RMR format where you have two best of ones.

(12:40):
Yeah, well, just fix that. Yeah, I have no problem with
fixing. Although I do think people, I
also think people completely overstate how random Bo ones
are. They are not that random.
They're not, but they're certainly more random in MR12,
and they have no place in MR12. Yes, but then I I've also
applicated for MR15 so. You know, anyway, so First off,
you've got to fix the format that has to be.

(13:03):
But that goes right the way intothe major.
My second point, yeah, I do think the best team should be at
the major. I I like I know your thoughts,
but I just think the answer to that, and this gets suggested
later on, I believe by carbon dogma, is that it just shouldn't

(13:25):
extend the whole way, right? It should be like the top eight
teams over the course of the season.
I I know you make a suggestion about if you win a tier one LAN.
I think that's better. I think that's better because
then you, if you win a Tier 1 land, you qualify structural
major. Everyone else has to qualify
because if you're actually one of the best teams and you
actually have to be at the event, you should have won an

(13:46):
event this year. But year or season is the issue.
I don't mind either. I think season, just because the
earlier major would be you'd be including stuff from last year
and I think, well, the team you were in March is not the team
you are. In Well, if it was season, then
the teams receiving invites thisseason would be mouse, not mouse

(14:08):
even it would be Mongols, Furia,G2 vitality spirit vitality.
You haven't question mark, have they not so and if it was year,
then obviously vitality Falcons mouse get included as well.
Yeah, I I feel like either of those options would be
perfectly. Fine.

(14:29):
So that that's OK. I believe they probably would
all come out in your top eight teams of the year probably
anyway, right, So. And they'd also probably all
qualify through an RMR as well. But then, you know, there's also
the difference in in regions or whatever, and that's that's a
fine thing. I'm also OK with using vRS for

(14:51):
that and just doing a general like is 2 from America's fucking
8 from EU, like get it to 16 teams or whatever, right?
But then we get to the vRS problem where this time we had a

(15:13):
really good final event for a spot, but that won't happen
again, like we've said. So how, how do you fix that?
How do you bring the magic back?Well, look at Austin.
Austin had vRS invites to a certain spot and then it had the
RMRS which were vRS invited and there was no open qualifier, but
there was still RMRS and those RMRS still have best of ones

(15:34):
problem. They were online problem.
Yeah, those both issues, but. But if you can, if you can, then
you know, say that say you half the invite pool for each region,
right. So instead of 16 three, you get
8 instead of what was it 10 for America's, you get 5 whatever

(15:57):
you do this and then you make RMRS for each region with the
the next teams plus spots from open qualifiers.
That way you're still getting the best teams at the major.
Because yes, I get it. It was really funny when G2
missed the major. It was really funny.
It was time Australia's missed the major, and maybe not so much

(16:18):
Australis with this point, but the major was worse about G2
there because G2 were one of thebest teams in the world.
They had Nico and Morrissey, butbut not at that moment in time.
They weren't, because if they were, they'd qualify fine.
They weren't. They weren't for that RMR not
long after they'd made changes. Yeah, so they probably were
going to bomb out of the major anyway.
The difference they. Win the event.

(16:39):
You can't. Qualify from Elliot.
They won the event. If you can't qualify from RMR,
what? I don't care.
Yeah, I don't care. They lost three games.
They lost, they won the event after the major like that
doesn't. Yeah, because they didn't lose
games there like. But that's no you.
Can't you can't keep No, no, no.You can't just insulate big
teams against bad results like we already have seeding to

(17:00):
insulate back like big teams against these.
We already have a way of stopping big teams from getting
quote UN quote screwed over by having to play big teams like
game. Legion did it.
ESO probably. I just want the best teams at
the biggest event. So do I so fucking win three
games then? But I just think.
Literally simple as that. Just take that way.
Just have them there. If they won an event, sure, I

(17:24):
don't mind that. If they'd won a Tier 1 land,
sure I don't mind that. But like any, I think anything
more than that is. But, but I do think that's a
ridiculous notion as well. If you do it, if you do it year
based, I guess it's kind of OK. But if you do it seasonal, like
it's ridiculous because then you're not inviting vitality.
And if you try and tell me the team that's made the top four of

(17:45):
every event they've attended this year isn't like.
It's not that I don't think they're one of the best, but
it's not that I don't think they're one of the best teams in
the world. I just think that that doesn't.
But I don't understand why that has to mean you have to go.
I don't understand why so the World Cup still has qualifiers.
It's better for the E sport if they're there.

(18:08):
England still have to qualify for the World Cup.
The World Cup is different, people are going to watch it
either way. People are going to watch the
major any either way. Yeah, but look at the viewership
numbers when these teams aren't there.
We don't like, we don't have thethe the safety net football
house. That's a big point.
No, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm not making competitive

(18:30):
decisions on an economic standpoint.
I mean, that's. I think you kind of have to in
your E sports to some degree. Like that is the unfortunate
truth. Like it's like having NAFI be
good is kind of the best thing that can happen for any E sport.
Oh. I think I think K Corp fine.
Well, yeah, I mean, no K Corp's number one, but like Ukrainians

(18:53):
are mental. Like Brazilian teams being good
is really good for an E sport anyway.
It is, but like you have to get new Brazilian teams at some
point. Like Bad News Eagles, when they
qualified, it was like you had awhole new like part of Europe
that was interested in counts, right?
Like that. They acted like they had the
fucking Prime Minister fly out to see them.

(19:14):
But yeah, you. Have to have new, you have to
have new blood. You can't keep just recycling
the same teams, which is what this is going to do.
I mean, this, this system would the one I'm proposing wouldn't
because you'd still have like, let's say eight teams invited to
an RMR and another eight teams that have to qualify to it

(19:36):
through open qualifiers into close qualifiers and all that
bullshit, right? Like I think isn't.
That very similar to what I've said, just by different,
different methodology, right? Yeah.
Teams who qualify. Teams who have won a Tier 1 land
this year. But I'd just.
Seven or eight teams. I'd just invite the top 8 from
Europe, the top whatever from Asia, and the top whatever from

(19:59):
America's. Actually another question I have
about this if you if we just want the the reason for the
valve rankings is we just want the best whatever 1632 teams at
the major, why are we bothering to split it up by region?
Well, that that is a question, isn't.
It like what's the point in splitting up by region?

(20:20):
Because it if the whole point iswe just want the best teams
there. Like why are red knits there?
Well yeah I read knits better than 9 and OG.
That's something I completely agree with.
I don't understand the regional.I don't be elitist, do it
properly. I understand why the regional
split has to happen, but I also like I don't I I I do think the

(20:44):
point you just said like sticks out as a a pretty standard
argument against pretty much anything actually.
Yeah, it's, it's like if we're going to do this, do this
properly. But like, I think like I was
tweeting back and forth with, with Colin, like I, I basically
made the point then because he was like, I was like, why does

(21:06):
this team have to be here? And he was out and he basically
was like, what upsets happen? I was like, so why don't we just
pick the top 8 and just have them in the playoffs?
And I found he's like what he's responded to, very illuminating,
which was, oh, because Val said this 32 team, he didn't actually
say, oh, I don't. Want that?
He just said because, yeah, but,but like, I've we've, we've both
spoken to people from like, you know, we've both spoke to people

(21:28):
who've said like, oh, if I couldjust pick the playoffs, it would
be better. And it's like, no, it wouldn't.
That's not. Yeah, that's.
Ridiculous. You don't like, you don't want
to watch anything. My take starts and ends that the
best team should be there, but how far they get after that is
whatever the best team should have.
I think. I honestly think, I honestly
think one of my bigger problems,and I know how much me and you

(21:51):
love the Swiss stage, but one ofmy bigger problems with the
major right now in its current form is the repeated Swiss
stages. I think those are ridiculous.
Nah, I will never. I've never have a problem with
more. If anything I have an extra
Swiss make the playoff Swiss system.
No, I, I, I, I think like, I think teams have also insulated

(22:13):
by the fact that they start in stage 3 as opposed to stage 1.
Yeah. That that bothers me more than a
lot of other things. You, you know how I feel about
this. I would not give any insulation
to big teams or if it was up to,if it was up to me, there would
be no seeding. Everyone would have to qualify
like I like. Quite simply, if you are the

(22:34):
best team, you should be able tobeat anyone.
You should be able to win most of your games and qualify
through every stage. If you're the best team in the
world, which is what the major like, you should just be able to
beat anyone. It doesn't matter.
And if you go, well, I have to play against three big teams, so
I'm out. Well, you weren't going to win
anyway. I don't care.
Oh, that's a point you're. Going to beat a good.
Team at some point before we move on.

(22:55):
That's a nonsense point I saw the other day.
So in Valorant champions happened this weekend and MOBR
got knocked out quite early. And this Brazilian, I don't, I
don't know what he is, whether he's talent or just like a
personality or whatever. He fucking tweeted.
We lost to NRG Fanatic and PaperX or DRXI, can't remember which

(23:22):
one. Who were the top three teams at
the event. He was like, so we are the moral
champions. How the same?
Is that best? You're 4th?
Yeah, absolute best. You're 4th like and you're not
4th. What does that like?
What does that mean? Also, just before we move on.
Does that make game of Legion the moral champions of VSL?
Pro league? I believe so, yes.

(23:43):
Just before we move on, I'd justlike to say one thing, because
why not? I think Valerie Champions might
be better than the majors. No seriously, right?
The fucking stage design they dofor that event is wicked.
Like they they don't do it the rest of the year.

(24:04):
It makes it feel ridiculously big.
And actually the next major willbe a really good comparison
because it's the same kind of setup with everyone fucking
around it or whatever. And also Riot are very good at
using music in a way that no counter strike tournament
organisers. When we were in Copenhagen we
had to listen to fucking Alexi BGod Mode.

(24:25):
That was the worst 3 minutes of our lives.
Although, although we we need totake a break in a minute, I need
I'm going to send you. I'm hoping we can put it on on
screen like in editing or something.
There is a Riot Games, I think it's an LCS final where they
have this this band on with a, afemale singer and she could not

(24:48):
sing. It is among the most like
difficult to watch things I've ever seen.
You think in front of a massive crowd and she cannot.
Sing those things. I was going to say other than
that, like the musical acts before the Valor final, it's
like 1520 minutes or whatever. It went on for a long time and
they had like the characters in the background with like this
story animation. It was so good.

(25:10):
Like it actually really added tothe moment of it, and I wish
that the majors had things like that because otherwise I feel
like a lot of the times the majors just feel like any other
event except for maybe like Cologne, which probably beats it
in terms of the idea of like gravitas or whatever, because
the SL puts so much into the cathedral idea.

(25:33):
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Like the the opening to Cologne is, is wicked.
It's so good. Yeah.
I don't think this, I don't knowwhat's going on on the screen.
This is definitely not what I'm looking.
For fucking Charlie's fucking DJKhaled Overwatch.
I'm done. Let's let's get our guest in,
shall we? So Jack, do you find it hard to

(25:54):
keep up with all the news and Counter Strike?
I do, I took a weekend off and Icame back to six new RGLS, 3
retirements and apparently Melvi's waterfall got picked up
by a top 20 team. Right, that's why I've been
relying on the TLDR newsletter. It's a biweekly e-mail that
keeps you up to speed on everything in the CSC without
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(26:16):
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Yeah, quick hits of news, spicy officer moves, upcoming match
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Old killer, no filler. And let's be honest, some of
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(26:37):
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(26:57):
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TLDR you don't have time to readeverything, you still want to
sound like you did. Hello and welcome to Brandon B
Dog. Dog.
I'm not sure if that is your surname, but it's what we're

(27:19):
going with. Welcome to the show.
Thank you very much. Yeah, no, not an official
surname, but I'd hope to change it one day.
That'd be good. If you were ready what what type
of dog would you be? I think to be honest, like
unrealistic, I probably want to be like a golden retriever

(27:40):
because I think I've got like golden retriever energy.
I'm quite loyal, trustworthy andI can fall asleep in a couple of
minutes so. Why did you describe that as
unrealistic? Would it be more realistic if
you were like a Chihuahua? Probably I'm quite small, right?
I'm like 5-10 so I'm not that feisty.

(28:00):
So I don't think I would be a Chihuahua.
I think realistically, I don't know why I said I'm realistic, I
think I'd be a garden retriever.I think that's because I've
always wanted one. Never quite managed it.
I think I'd be a. Rottweiler.
I don't know what I'd be. I've never actually put much
thought into it. Dash and.
Right. Excellent talk about impact,

(28:21):
Elliot. Fuck you.
Yeah, so the we got the news this week that ESL Impact was
shutting its doors. I'm not sure what the the
official term that. It was suspended.
Suspended OK that's that at least opens the the door to a
potential return at some point around for seven seasons for

(28:42):
those you don't know ESL impact was the the women's league ESL
ran and essentially they they decided that it was no longer
sustainable to run after seven seasons on screen.
You currently have the the viewership statistics that's
tweeted out by front of the podcast you me which gives some

(29:03):
insight as to where that unsustainable label comes from.
Brandon B Dog dog was a a casterfor it's an impact on his
obviously now now a little bit looking for work and also wants
to talk about impact. So yeah, what was like?
When did you hear that it was being suspended?

(29:26):
When the tweet came out. OK, OK, so it.
Wasn't I didn't know. Nobody knew at all from our side
until the tweet got published. And I was on the way back from
holiday off a really long travelday because you know what
flights are like sometimes. And it was a bit of a nightmare.
And I got sent this tweet and I thought it was a joke.

(29:47):
And then more people get sendingme it.
And I was like, OK, no, this is actually real.
This is happening. So yeah, I found out probably
about like 20 minutes away from my house.
But as the tweet dropped literally like 5 minutes after.
Yeah. I'd, I'd had a feeling that this
was probably coming. Like my expectation was that
Impact would exist next year andit would be all online and then

(30:10):
it would be canned in 27. So I've been like trying to
figure something out for a little while.
I don't think many people knew this was coming.
Like, I really think it took quite a lot of people by
surprise and probably a lot of people who worked on Impact

(30:31):
within ESL did not know this washappening.
Yeah, I'd imagine that was also the case because if there was
going to be extensive meetings about it, I feel like we would
have at least been in the loop alittle bit, right.
So I would assume that because it blindsided us, it probably
blindsided a lot of the the people that worked within the

(30:53):
product as well. Wouldn't.
Wouldn't be the first time I know.
So ESO users produced Rocket League and I think Blast managed
to secure the rights of Rocket League.
And the people who worked on Rocket League, ESL found out the
day that Blast announced it. Like there was no, they were
completely blindsided, which like I think ESL deliberately

(31:14):
don't tell like some of their staff this I think probably for
like they don't want people to panic, I guess.
But obviously there's a lot of people in need of extra work, so
they probably should have been told beforehand.
But yeah, as Sam alluded to, I think there was some sort of
idea that because when you look at the viewership figures and

(31:35):
obviously ESL reducing the size of their company massively in
the last year, like it felt likethe IT was going to happen at
some point. But I think this came earlier
than everyone was expecting. Yeah, look, I, it's, it's one of
those obviously it's, it's quiteupsetting and obviously it's

(31:56):
quite a personal project that I've been a part of since the
very start. So my view is obviously going to
be a little bit more biased towards the the scene in
general. Like I'm a huge support of the
scene. So it's one of those where, yes,
we didn't expect this to happen at all.
And to be honest, the the goal and obviously the entire message
of ESL Impact when it first started was creating GG for all,

(32:19):
creating that competitive space.And it wasn't about really being
economically sustainable. There could have been a lot more
things I think implemented sooner that would have maybe
potentially helped that. And I think that the issue
you've got is that they are sucha big company and maybe you
don't have to run a tournament or at least one product with the

(32:41):
idea of it always being a profitwindow.
Because if you were, I think they would have probably handled
things a little bit differently here with ESL Impact and some of
the decisions that they made across the seven, now eight
seasons we are entering. We are in the middle of our
eighth season at the moment and it will conclude at the end of
the year Dream Pack and Stockholm.
So it's one of those where we don't we didn't expect to, I

(33:03):
don't think again, I don't thinkanyone would have known about it
internally. And it it sucks, to be honest.
Like it really does suck. And the fact that it wasn't even
moved online, as you say, like Ithink that's important.
Sam like to note like this couldhave been done in a different
way. We didn't have to just go from
100 to 0 immediately. But that's the reality we find

(33:26):
ourselves in, unfortunately. What do you what do you think
about the actual like closure ofit?
Because like, I think it's pretty sad.
I think, you know, like for yourself, for Freddie Lucy,
there's probably a ton of other talent I can't think of.
But then you look at you look atteams and you've got, you know,

(33:47):
like flash is now the liquid coach and he was previously sly
Quest red coach, if I remember right.
So you've got all these people that have gotten so many starts
and impact where impact was contributing to the scene in
such a way where it it it clearly was good for the scene
and it is it's good for women tohave their own designated place

(34:10):
in the scene. But what do you think about, you
know, AS LS actual dish isn't too close it because although
you said there are things they could have done, I know that
certain things have been stripped back over the years
anyway, like in terms of how it was, it was viewed and all that.
So do you think it was like understandable for from the ESL

(34:32):
perspective or? I'm going to say no just just
just because the overall initiative was to create that
sustainable playing field. And I think the, the way it was
marketed was set up to me when I, when I looked at it and when
I obviously worked the product was you're creating a

(34:54):
competitive environment. You're also just creating a road
map for these players. Like you need to have this way
of having a tournament that inspires the next generation.
And that comes in the male scenequite easily, but it doesn't
really have that in the women's scene.
And it's almost you had all the dream hack showdowns before
COVID. Then we went into COVID where

(35:15):
that didn't exist anymore and almost felt like ESL Impact was
building the scene up from scratch again.
And it it, it would be, I think it'd be easier to to view this
as a sustainability issue if there was more T OS I think in
the scene. But because there isn't,

(35:35):
obviously this is the the biggest women's event that we've
had in terms of seasons for for years now.
And I'm worried that we aren't going to get there again, at
least anytime soon. I really hope for it, of course.
And I hope that other tournamentorganizers can look at this as
an opportunity. Because if I think if you, you

(35:58):
look at look at #110,000 viewersin the middle, we'll talk about
that in a moment. But if we are looking at the
positives right now, when there was interest initially and then
the ESO Impact Season 7 finals, you also had it being broadcast
on the main ESL stream. It was instead of the show
match, the ground final was on stage.

(36:19):
There was a live crowd there as well.
And there is there is crowds normally for ESL Impact.
There's one obviously a much smaller scale because it's
either in the Expo center or is that a dream hack?
But again, 102,000 people there.So it it there is definitely a
market for it. It's just definitely, it's just
dependent on how you do it and how you, I think market it to a

(36:40):
certain extent and how the, the public perceive it as well.
And I think there's definitely ademand there.
It's just a shame that it wasn'tsort of replicated.
If we had 100,000 or we had like50K across all the seasons, then
maybe it would be a little bit more sustainable, you know?
I will say if, if somebody does pick up Impact or not impact,

(37:01):
but picks up the women's scene and then starts running
tournaments, I would say the ES LS sort of mission in that
though. And you say offering that road
map, building these players up, it's almost succeeded if, if it
gets picked up. So, and I do think like, I'm not
saying you do, but there's been some like, there's been people
who are like really going after ESL for this decision.

(37:21):
And I just think like they're the only ones who are, who are
running this in the 1st place. Like I think they're actually,
they like, I think they, they don't get there.
So they didn't get the sort of love that I thought they would
from the scene for for like, youknow, they're the whole smile
because it happened. Not don't cry the.
Show Do you think they are That's a.
Fair comment. Do you think ESL are someone to

(37:41):
blame though? Because we, we will obviously
talk about blame a little bit because it will, it will come in
the, the reactions. But like did did ESL market it
enough? Did they use their mainstreams
enough rather than the impact stream?
Did they schedule things in the right times?
Like I know season 8 finals happens like slap banging in the

(38:05):
middle of the major. Like in the nicest in the nicest
way. How many people that would have
watched that or maybe would havetuned in because it was on are
going to do that over whichever random Swiss stage of the major
is playing just because it's it's the major?
Like are the things where ESL didn't do enough?

(38:31):
In terms of marketing, I think the, the, the issue you've got
with this and people will view ESL impact, but it really is a
passion project like it was set up by people that used to work
in dream hack that came over into EFG.
And so they didn't initially have all of these resources at
their disposal. I know obviously the there was a

(38:53):
lot of backlash and there was a lot of backlash about ESL just
dropping it and they've got all this money, so to speak.
But ESL Impact never really had like that budget.
That was never really a consideration when making the
broadcast in the first instances.
So that's why you see so many ofthem feature at Dream Hacks.
That's why they feature alongside IEM Dallas, because

(39:14):
it's already being used for that.
It isn't sort of like ESL Impacts Hideout, it's own arenas
sold it's own tickets. It wasn't sort of in that vein.
So could it, could they have done more in terms of the
marketing? Of course they could have.
They could have definitely put more on the mainstream if
possible. But obviously at that point when
ESL Impact first started, you had so many seasons of Chandra

(39:36):
League, had ESL Challenger as well.
You obviously got all of the main broadcast and the events
that run alongside it. The reality of the situation is
there isn't enough space in the calendar to probably have a
designated week where it's just women's CS.
And that's the the belly of the beast in terms of how's the CS
calendar is jam packed anyway. And that's good and bad for
viewers because it does mean youget a dilution of what's going

(39:59):
on over a set period of time. So yes, definitely it should
have been advertised more on themainstream.
So I think the decision to turn the show matches into the grand
final was a really positive step, but.
We'd argue it should have happened a lot sooner and I
really wish it did happen a lot.Soon, that should have happened
with Season 3, even season 1 really.

(40:21):
But like. Definitely kind of it.
So we did, we did a stand alone event here.
So what people might not be aware of, you don't watch ESL
Impact as well as you've got these eight regular seasons.
There was also some stand alone events.
There was ESL Impact Valencia within the first year.
There's ESL Impact kind of it, Sir.
And at that moment when when you're saying, OK, we're
bringing ESL Impact to kind of it, Sir, what grand final should

(40:42):
have been on the stages of the show match?
Yeah. What I will say on this, on this
point about marketing is that I've actually tried to make
content around impact and found actually to be a lot more
resistance you'd imagine. So when I worked at ASL on
YouTube, I wanted to do a video previewing.
I can't remember if it was the season 4, the season 5 final or

(41:04):
whatever. I wanted to do a video
previewing that. And I was basically told that it
would take too long because everyone at Impact wanted to
like go through it with a fine comb, make sure I wasn't saying
anything. That was they didn't like it.
I think there was a little bit of like, it was difficult.
We we we tried to get somebody on this podcast as well to talk

(41:24):
about Impact before one of the events with Logan was a big, big
fan of Impact. Used to watch every event we
tried to get people on and it was like we sort of got bogged
down in bureaucracy, which I think really didn't help.
Like people, when people want totalk about your event, make it
as easy as possible. I found that baffling that they
made it difficult at times. Yeah, I just found that

(41:48):
infuriating, to be honest. I think it's fair that ASL could
have done more. I mean, there's a few, Charlie,
if you show on the last tweet onyour browser, because I'm sure
that'll be one of them. What about the other one?
Yeah, this one. I think like, you know, there's

(42:14):
a lot of people blaming ESL because there was also the
Cologne ticket thing recently. But like people, people have to
understand Cologne tickets and impact are nothing to do with
each other. Absolutely nothing to do with
each other. And by the time this podcast is
out, there'll also be a new deepdive written by me.

(42:35):
Subscribe to the TLDR newsletter:) which which is all about the
Cologne ticket pricing and why it's actually not that big of a
deal. But I understand why it was a
bad look for ESL. Yeah, the timing of it is
probably like I think. They're not one of the, one of

(42:55):
the. Sticks right?
Really not great. Yeah, mid season is really bad
optics. Mid season's harsh, but but also
the, as you say, the timing of the Cologne thing.
And I think it's really important that you are saying
this and people recognize that like this, these things are
independent of each. Other just because they.
Exist under the same umbrella they don't like.

(43:16):
There's no overlap between the two of.
Them so, so there's people blaming ESL finances, which do
whatever, because I'm sure you have a complete understanding of
the fucking ESL business practices and the accounts.
And of course, if you do that, you then reach the Saudis, which
I mean, like frankly, like I don't want to just outright

(43:38):
defend the Saudis, but you got to understand that they are not
like they are not puppet mastersfor ESL and everyone's on
strings. Like of course they own it, but
they don't, they don't make decisions.
Like I know I've seen a couple of tweets where people are like,
oh, the Saudis, the Saudis foundout this this trans as soon as
they found out they need to careabout the female scene, they

(44:00):
dip. Impact was started after the
Saudis bought emerged EFG. I've seen another tweet
somewhere about like, oh, as soon as they found out those
trans players in season 7, they killed it.
Please be serious. Like actually be serious.
The Saudis did not fucking kill impact.

(44:21):
It's like it's such a ridiculouscriticism to make.
Sorry, I thought you were going to say something.
No, it's just, it's just, it's just people.
I just, it just makes me really angry when people speak on
things that they don't understand and like it just, it
just infuriates me. Also, should we talk about the

(44:45):
reactions in general? Because Charlie, if you go on to
the the Zazz retweet, I think itwas the image that you've got
for everyone. Yeah, this So I know, I know,
Brandon, mean you have have spoken about this entire topic

(45:06):
when we were arranging the show.So do you want to, do you want
to take this one and talk about how generally it's fucking
annoying this is? Yeah, I can speak about it a
little bit. It's it's one of those things
where it's like what what was what was nice in a really
bittersweet way is the I think the reaction overrule for for

(45:26):
people see in this tweet was within terms of the SL impact
one was actually pretty positivetowards the scene.
I think I think most people actually recognize that there is
a need and certainly a well, a definite competitive need for
there to be a women's scene thatexists.
And there there is plenty of examples of it within other
sports and and E sports. Obviously the direct comparison

(45:48):
is going to be game changers, but again, completely different
circumstance with valor and valve, because valve are a hands
off developer, whereas riot are pretty head on so they can
afford to put stuff in the game because they run all of their
tournaments. But I, I think the, the thing
that gets me the the most in thebittersweet way, as I'm saying,
is, but the fact that there was all this support, I think is

(46:10):
absolutely fantastic. And I think hopefully that is
the the same weight carried forward for the future.
But in the same breath, it wouldbe nice if we had this during
the the time. It's almost like when people
react after a crisis has happened rather than during all
of the good ongoing efforts. And it makes me upset because I,
we, we talk about on ESL impactsall the time.

(46:31):
And that's why my catch phrase on the show is just the, the
level of the, the competition israising from season to season.
It's just so true. And I and I and I hope that
people will actually become a little bit more informed.
It's a shame that it looks like ESL impacts ending or being
suspended. Sorry, has taken a lot more
people to become a more aware ofthe women's scene.

(46:52):
And I hope that they can again keep this energy moving forward
when we get tournaments again, when there are when there are
more sort of potential opportunities for women within
the space. Because if everyone can start
championing and everyone can start being noisy in a positive
way as when the events are goingon as well, then that will just
help succeed it even further. Yeah, all right.

(47:13):
Like for me, it's so infuriating.
Like, I'm not going to pretend like I watched Impact all the
time. I didn't when that Cato event
was on. I was fortunate enough to be in
Cato and Elliot will will back me up on this because he was sat
next to me. We watched a lot of impact in
Cato and I did quite a few impact interviews that impact

(47:35):
players generally are just some of the the loveliest people
really open to interviews. Just really nice to be around.
And, you know, I watched it a handful of times.
Other than that, I, I, I wasn't a big impact fan.
I'm not going to pretend to be, but it's so infuriating seeing

(47:56):
just the amount of people now who are like, I can't believe
they've, they've got rid of this.
How could they do this? It's disgusting.
It's all this, it's all that. And it's so clear that they're
just looking for brownie points.They're just looking for that
like little, little pinch of social credit before that system
comes in and ruins our lives where you then see players.
So we previously had political, well, whatever.

(48:18):
We we previously had this as fucking retweet.
And now we've got a Giuliano tweet on where it says mixed
feelings over the lack of support from our community
through these years. And whenever there's a scandal
in the women's scene, suddenly people show up and want to help.
That must be so shit for these players, especially someone like
Giuliano who was given, you know, most of her fucking adult

(48:40):
life to competing to just to just have these things where you
know, people we've we've looked at the viewing figures.
People weren't watching, people didn't care, but they all they
all come out as soon as it as soon as it gets canned and and
say how much, how important it was.
Fucking do you really think thator is this is this performative

(49:02):
activism as I saw one person call the SL2 minutes after
following the impact account. It's ridiculous.
Like how shit must that be for the players to actually have to
to see that? Yeah, it sucks.
And it sucks as well because obviously this the the, the lack
of investment now from ESL, which is a great shame.

(49:25):
It is now like that was the thatwas the the way in and that was
probably like, that was the biggest tournament in the
women's scene. And now you don't have that
suddenly because of a tweet, loads of players are now
thinking about what are they going to do?
What are the next steps? And it's, it's a shame that

(49:46):
again, we've got, as you say, people speaking out about it,
but people that didn't actually watch the the show.
And that's why I'm saying keep this energy.
It's like it's really not. It's actually nice in a weird
way that you're speaking about this now.
But when we do get tournaments in the future, because I'm sure
we will get tournaments in the future, let's to maintain the
hype of advocating the women's scene.

(50:06):
I don't. I hope it's not just a flash in
the pan of, again, a crisis has happened.
Yes, Olympic gets suspended. People speak out about it and
then they're not interested in the long run.
Yeah. So I've got like one final point
I want to make and then there's there's two questions I wanted
to ask both of you before we we wrap up the impact stuff.

(50:27):
So my final point was just, I think a lot of people are very
quick to blame the SL. They're very quick to blame the
Saudis because that's easy. But I think maybe some blame
should go towards organizations,right?
I, I, I don't want to criticize people for business ideas, but
Charlie, if you just click on the, the, the first image in
this tweet I made. So this was this is the EU

(50:49):
groups for impact season 4. And I just want you to look at
the amount of organizations you see there.
You see Nip G2 Guild Obviously we're a bit of a shit show, but
they they exist NTS game lesion one win VP non pandas big enigma
Galaxy later became imperial andNavi.

(51:11):
Now switch the image Charlie look at that imperial nip and
big There are some all gone and ESO offered incentives for
organizations by the way, they could earn money from placement
and from making content and it'sall gone like that.
That also isn't sustainable where all the onus is on the the

(51:35):
teams. But so my my 2 questions then
one of them. Do you think what happened at
the start of the year with vRS invites and Imperial Valkyries
getting to play in mixed tournaments her impact?
No, no, definitely not. I don't.

(51:56):
I don't think it did it. If anything, I think it it hurt.
I say she's not the right word. It didn't hurt anything.
If anything, it put more eyes onthe scene, which I think was
really important. I think it I think that they
played really well at Blast and then kind of it's was a little
bit unfortunate for them. Except play over standing for
the majority of the tournament. But their coach Bubble, who

(52:18):
hasn't played festive count strike in a very long time?
It almost doesn't matter. Fury with them, to be fair.
Exactly. They ran it back to overtime,
they were down a deficit as well, and they ran it all the
way back. And people again, they can come
at me and I'll be like, Oh well,they didn't win, did they?
Are you celebrating A comeback victory?
And it's like with respect, likebefore vRS, there wasn't a clear

(52:40):
cut way for these teams who weredoing well in Impact to get
invited to any of these events anyway.
And for the Imperial in particular to be considered and
having legacy within ESL Impact to then go to Blast Bounty to
then go to I am kind of it. So then the tender PGL event,

(53:02):
all in that short space of time that jump up to competition is
huge because you're playing against the best teams in the
world. I think they did.
I think they did really well forthe limited chance that they've
had before. And I don't think that
definitely her Impact. If anything, it probably should
have drawn more attention to it.And this a shame that it didn't.
And for for Imperial, I think for the scene in general as

(53:24):
well, I think it was actually good for ES Olympat Season 7.
We got new champions, Imperial didn't win it.
So they've gone to all these Tier 1 tournaments.
They've shown what the women's scene is about and yet they
still don't win the event. The development of the the
players has been fantastic. And it is is to touch on your
point, it has been very good. And as mentioned, this in my
tweet has been good. The organizations have remained

(53:45):
within ESL impact. Would I love that to be more
organizations than ESL Impacts? Of course I would, because it
means that these players can play full time.
These players have access to resources they've never had
before. They have coach, they have
analysts, they get better Pratt groups.
Like that's just a reality of the situation.
That's also the reality of the situation with Imperial being
invited into the the vRS networkand playing in the Blast
tournaments. As they got better invites, they

(54:07):
got better Pratt groups and it means they can all improve
together. And no, I don't.
I don't think it hurt them at all.
I think it I think it was a goodthing for the scene, to be
honest. Well, my final question then,
given what we've seen, because because you said earlier, right,
Val, for a hands off developer, and that has always been true

(54:30):
until this year when they made the vRS system and we've had so
many issues with the vRS system before you were here, Brandon,
we moaned about the vRS system for about 20 minutes.
It's typically what we do on this podcast.
Now that they aren't so hands off, is it time for Valve to
just take responsibility of the women's scene?

(54:50):
Should they be the ones that create the, the new version of,
of ESL Impact? And, you know, maybe it even
leads into what is or what wouldbe a, a women's major.
That'd be fantastic. I mean, The thing is, I'm going
to be biased about this, aren't I?
But I will be biased, and that'sfine.
I think that'll be absolutely phenomenal if they were able to

(55:11):
do that. And you're right, the fact that
they were hands on this year andthat they've implemented vRS,
maybe that's a step in the direction that they want to go
in, being a little bit more hands on with their game as
developers. And hopefully from this, you can
see enough noise has been created where Valve, you can't
step in and do something that'd be honestly so phenomenal.

(55:31):
I mean, you look at rioting gamechanges, you look at what
they've built up and what they've achieved over the years.
Like even when game changes is on like a few weeks ahead of
time, like they put in game adverts of the players, like you
can't ignore it. And that's fantastic.
And maybe having that clear distinction, maybe having Valve
taken over that responsibility would be good for the scene

(55:53):
because we spoke about the dilution of competitions.
Well, if the if the developer isactively hands on then you can't
ignore it. Yeah.
Do you have any thoughts on thatelite before we we wrap up
impact? As much as I think it would be
amazing for the women's scene, Ijust can't see.
I can't see it happening. For what it's worth, no.
I can't see. It would be fantastic.

(56:15):
Yeah, I mean, it would be amazing for that scene.
I I think you're really what you're looking for is blast to
see this and go we sell are getting some heat for this.
There's a easy PR win, like immediately just, you know,
start blast, whatever they want to call it and just run

(56:35):
essentially Impact. I mean, you can probably hire a
lot of the same people because alot of those people care so
much. So like, I know a lot of this.
I knew a lot of the stuff behindImpact because I worked on one
of them. And like, I know a lot of those
people would probably leave ASL for Blast if such an opportunity
came up. I'm pretty sure Brandon, you
would want to cast it no matter where it was.

(56:56):
Like, you could hire the same people, you'd get the same
teams. Like, I think it's an immediate
PR win for anyone who picks thisup.
It's just a case of like, who's going to bite that bullet?
Who's going to take that chance?And I think I I do kind of think
somebody will. I just don't think it'll be
Valve. Yeah, I think that's quite a
nice way to finish it. Right.
Like yeah, Sam Brandon is ESL Pro League better than the Major

(57:23):
I'm. Gonna let Brandon take that one.
I. Don't.
Cheers, mate. No, I don't think so.
Like Pro league's great. Like I always look forward to
Pro League in the calendar. And I suppose if you take a look
at the brackets, like right now in Stage 2, it looks quite fun.
But there's magic in the major, right?

(57:43):
You can't, you can't not say that.
So I think the major is always going to be special for what it
is and I don't think anything can top it.
And what we'll say is the major Cologne next year is going to go
so hard. Anyone can afford the tickets?
I I do really want to be there for that.
I mean, I just think this this probably could have easily been

(58:06):
so terrible. But the fact that Hatu and in a
Circle both beat the Mongols, itis just is quite fun, isn't it?
Yeah. But by the way, I I made this
point, that can't happen at the moment.
Hatu can't go through a qualifier, go through the first
stage and then like start being top team.
I know obviously they didn't do so well afterwards, but like
beat top teams and somebody was like, Oh yeah.

(58:28):
But it can like it can like obviously it won't happen in the
sense that like a big team won'tget upset by a really small
ship. But yeah, but that's literally
what I was talking about. So so we can't, but that's
that's what I like about Freddy is you still have this insane
racket. You have Bo threes in the
opening games. That's good.
Which is good, you've still got all the top teams here, but

(58:51):
there's also a qualifier. Format wise, It's A Knockout.
It's just, you know, whether or not you like the casting, I've
seen people who hate it and people who love it.
I think it can be quite fun to be fair.
It definitely can. This event's great.
This is a great event. Yeah.
I do think though there's obviously AVR S issue because

(59:12):
they are favorite things that weneed to talk about with that we
need to talk about with with this and that's the whole phase
and brain debacle. Charlie, if you if you switch
over to that and Elliot, you canrun down the news.
Yeah, so phase changed their roster.

(59:33):
If you're not aware, they they cut rain to bring back twists,
except they they didn't because right before they played their
opening game, VSL Pro League, ESL.
Well, hang on, they've got theirfingers out.
We're counting to 3. And when you've only got two
players that were invited, you're going to have to leave or

(59:54):
bring somebody back that was invited.
So they had to kick Jacob for anevent and bring back Rain, who
had to fly in from where, you know, wherever he lives, you
know, he was chilling at the beach and he's all of a sudden
he gets the call. It's like one last job for the
boys. So Reigns back in for the event,
but they also had to forfeit their first game because he

(01:00:14):
couldn't like Teleport, which iskind of weak from him to be
honest. I find it very odd immediately
people were like oh ESL should have told them before that and
like I'm sure they should, but Phase also shouldn't have put
out a roster that only had two players that were invited.
What are you doing? Skulls, right skulls and then

(01:00:36):
simple was registered for the major so.
Jesus. No, I think.
It was skulls. I think rain skulls, I think
Rain was on the roster, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, so.
Paul would have been him, Carrigan frozen and then they
had a Legion skulls for the Dallas event, I want to say, and
then for for the major they theyhad simple as well.

(01:00:58):
Yeah, maybe, maybe you'll have aa different take on this,
Brandon. But like, you know, people
blaming phase, people blaming ESL, but both parties realized
they're so late that they couldn't get Rain to Stockholm.

(01:01:19):
Bear in mind Rain was probably in Norway.
They couldn't get Rain to Stockholm in time for their
first game because it was realized that late on a fucking
media day most likely. Like I think this is fucking
Val's fault if I'm being honest it.
Might have even come later. It might have even come later
because I think they were, I think they tweeted like all the

(01:01:40):
first players were like tweetingout like emojis on the first day
of pro league. Yeah, it was on the on the day
of the game. It wasn't even media day.
Yeah, yeah, it was on the day. But this is insane.
Like this this if if the tournament organisers can't
track this and and the teams can't track this.
Surely this is an issue with theovercomplication of vRS, Surely?

(01:02:02):
I think so but also also Phase shouldn't be putting out a
roster but not by the way Phase are qualified to the major.
Obviously they will have by the time the invites go locked vRS
they I don't think they've played a single game with the
roster. They're going to play at the
major. No.
So, so how, how do we know they're one of the best teams in

(01:02:23):
the world? And that's that's for the.
Well, because that that's tied to the core right in in theory.
Yeah, but when the core had like, if you put schools and
like fucking Mighty Max on that team, that core all of a sudden
is not one of the best teams in the world.
Well, sure, I'm not saying some.Course hasn't it?
Oh, so that was really mean on Mighty Max Schools is.

(01:02:45):
Trying sorry, it was meaner on yeah.
No, no schools is terrible. I'm not having this.
No, fine. But but yeah, no, like I don't I
don't understand how it got thisone.
What a phase doing. Why have you put out a roster
that you can't play? What are you doing?
I think the entire phase situation no just it obviously
highlights this issue with an overcomplication of vRS but also

(01:03:08):
just how the the fact that Chriswon't be getting stickers for
this major because they haven't played a required number of
games by the invite deadline. There's still basically two
months until the major begins. By that point he would have
played so many maps of phase. Why isn't he getting stickers so
stupid like this entire it'd. Be so fun if they lose every

(01:03:30):
game though. It would be good, but.
It'd be so good. I'd be so vindicated.
I don't know man, but I just I. Feel bad for Jacob because if
you actually look at the team, you can look at the team sheets
for EPL like they had twists as a sub.
So it's like, well, if he's the sub and you've been trying to

(01:03:51):
integrate Jacob into your roster, surely you'd just say,
well, we'll play with our five that we've been playing with
before we brought you in. Oh yeah, surely, surely that's
another thing where ASL should have been forced.
That twist is the one that doesn't play.
Oh well, he's a sub, he's a. Sub so you can choose whether
he's playing or not. I don't think that's the I don't

(01:04:12):
think that's the thing. I think it's I just from a from
a player POVI think that's harshon the youngster.
But obviously it's out of it's out of control is not a fair
thing to say because obviously it was in the control of both
phase and ESL to an extent. But with that being said, it was
phases ultimate decisions for say, local play with rain

(01:04:33):
instead of Jacob. So it's from his POV, I'm a
little bit upset for him, but hopefully he's he's still so
young that he can just bounce back from it.
And hey, maybe, maybe if Phase have a good run, maybe the idea
for them is they have a good runhere at Pro League and it sets
them up for the major. Maybe, I don't know.
Well, so you said bounce back then this is something I was

(01:04:54):
going to ask you. Do you not think this could hurt
Jacob long term? Because like obviously rains
come in and Jacob within this lineup is the rain replacement.
If Rain plays quite well and then Jacob struggles in the next
event or the next couple events,is that not going to play on his

(01:05:15):
mind more because of pro league then if he just struggled?
I don't think so, to be completely honest with you.
I think it's more the the fact of I think people have
unrealistic expectations of people making the jump to tier
one because we've seen it in thecase of Donk, you could argue
Kia Suki as well, but it's like that these players have set

(01:05:35):
unrealistic expectations that everyone who is playing in Tier
2 will immediately make the jumpto Tier 1 and translate well
within a few events. And that for the by and large,
this isn't the majority of the population when it comes to
counter strike players. So I don't, I as long as like
phase and obviously I'm sure Kara gonna be telling him look
like look, this, this isn't a slight on you and we're not

(01:05:58):
expecting you to. Also, if he is the if he is the
rain replacement, like it's a bit unfair.
Just in general, if you say, OK,we want you to play like rain
and we need to pull out rain in like 3 weeks.
That's not realistically, that'snot happening, is it?
Yeah, yeah. It's absolutely not.
Let's let's actually talk about what happened to phase because
obviously they they had to forfeit their first game against

(01:06:21):
G2 to the this was just obviously a loss and they then
followed that up with a loss to 3D Max, which again they had a
stand in. That's not their real roster,
whatever, But it's still a little worrying for them because
3D Max have not been amazing of late that they're obviously
they're a good team, a bit a bitof an advocate for them, but

(01:06:41):
still a little worrying. But they did manage to avoid the
30 because they knocked out Australis.
Now I'm a little sick of talkingabout Australis, but also
they're at the major and they they're not very good.
No, I mean, yeah, I mean, Brandon, you might have a

(01:07:02):
different take about this roster, but I.
Don't. Fair enough.
Yeah, All right, all right. I said in the deep dive, you
just got to blow this shit up like this.
This roster is terrible. It's never going to be good.
They need to stop trying to makeStare happen, because he is.
He is just pants. He is Waitrose.
Borup, this is the sort of team that would go out in an RMR, but

(01:07:24):
unfortunately they have to be there.
Another team who will be there is 3D Max we mentioned as sort
of they're fine and they then after beating phase in the O1
bracket, they lost the opening game to Furia, but after that
they then went and beat Navi, which is the UB phase and Navi
an event. And I've just said you're not
even been that good recently. Pretty happy with that I.

(01:07:47):
That's this is. Legit a run as a team like 3D
Max can get at this sort of stage I think.
Yeah, I mean, I've always been harsh, I'm afraid.
D Max. Mostly because they're French,
but I do quite like Masha. Listen, Brandon, I'm English
through and through. I've got to have my, my, my set

(01:08:07):
things. They are the old enemy.
But actually, Brandon, I wondered, too many enemies.
I wondered your take on this. Do you think that they will be a
consistently better team now Gravity's taken over as IGO
because the fact they did that really surprised me.
But it seems to be going quite well so far.
Yeah, that really surprised me as well because obviously he was

(01:08:28):
originally recruited as the rookie and now he's taking over
a lot more leadership responsibilities.
Like I'll be I'll be total levelof you guys.
Like I've not watched too much of pro league due to like
everything happening sort of in my circle just sort of imploding
a little bit. But as a result, like I
obviously don't see 3D Max anymore.

(01:08:48):
I used to commentate them an awful lot and what what's good
about this team and what they'vealways had is resilient and the
fact that you've now integrated gravity and they've moved him
into an in game leader. To answer your question, I think
that's a real testament just to this roster and how they've been
throughout their years where they've always been competitive.
They've always been a contender and now they're I mean they're

(01:09:09):
currently playing against males as we're recording this and they
got owned on inferno classic. But there you go.
Resilience 75T side overpass back has been playing out of his
mind. Is that clip on train?
That's crazy. That was that clip is naughty.
Maybe Charlie just put that in just for the sake of it, because
it is. That's going to be one of the

(01:09:30):
better clips of the year. Bet lovely lovely double from
him, but now they start to and that's what laser beam in the
hands of Maca. OK, that is stunning.
That is pristine. That is precision.
Oh. That's what he play of the year.
That's insane. I don't know about play of the

(01:09:52):
year. Is it is a pro league Swiss
stage like let's? We, we still have the major, we
still have the majors that come with Donk in this form and
Monosy. Looking back, if we if we go, if
you look at the teams who are three and zero, you got Donk and
Monosy. When you talk about player play
of the year, those two like mostly like I think Monosy won

(01:10:14):
it, then he'd win it with like aGalio play like one year like Oh
no, it was like the one V5 with the ORP I think.
The old against MIBR and Inferno, That one.
I'm thinking of one that was on the newbis I was thinking.
He no I know one play 5. I feel like that was also
against particularly in team wasn't it?
I I have a feeling it was against whoever Nork was playing

(01:10:37):
on, but I could be completely wrong either way.
Either what? Either way, the fact that we've
thought of different ridiculous monetary clips means he's well
in the running for play Play of the year even without having 1
yet. It was it was tug and cheek, but
it was just insane, right, like I.
Don't know this. This 3D Max team, what I love is
the fact that they keep going tothese events.
Everyone I think writes them offand then they do well.

(01:11:00):
So I think that that is a sign of resiliency.
That's a sign of I, I think theybenefit from being underdogs.
I think they've always sort of been an underdog team, just in
not, not so much Tier 2 space. I think like Tier 1.5, Tier 1.
And because there's no expectations on them, the fact
that they keep getting these BRSinvites and the fact that they
keep playing well, I think is probably the best state they can

(01:11:21):
be in. And then heading towards the
major like they're going to be private in that environment.
We, we often talk about 3D Max as the the replacement big in
terms of like the gatekeepers oftier one.
But but one thing I will say about 3D Max is that they are
beginning to win me over and beginning to impress me in that

(01:11:43):
they're actually starting to rack up consistently decent wins
against the teams ahead of them.And I actually think, like, as
much as I hate to say it, this team could have a very big 2026.
Yeah, they're they're a good team who abuse mistakes as well
as any tier one team. They just don't necessarily

(01:12:05):
create opportunities in the way like A-Team, like Fury account,
like it's deemed like vitality and they they, I feel like they,
they don't like against a solid,a really solid team.
I think they've hit a bit of a brick wall.
But when they're against a team who are a bit more open, like
mouse play in a way that's like there are gaps against mouse.

(01:12:28):
They're good enough that you don't know it's not time, but
there are gaps and they will find them.
They will abuse any mistake you make, which is why I always said
they're like big because they just find your weakness and they
just keep hitting you in it likeyou got weak legs that kick you
in the shins over and over again.
Like that's that's how 3D Max play, which I kind of like.
You spoke about the in game leader.

(01:12:48):
I want to touch on the coach as well, like the fact that you've
replaced that entire like main spine, as it were of the team
because I think he only came in in like July, June of this year.
So you've changed your in game leader, you've changed your
coach, and yeah like 2 months 2.Months, right that's.
Really impressive. That wasn't.
Yeah, no, it is. Yeah.

(01:13:09):
No, that is very impressive and probably also why they seem to
be improving as a team and and talking about improvement as a
team. I also wanted to touch on
Falcons. It actually seems like that
roster is beginning to to gel now.
I've always been very heavily against this Falcons team.

(01:13:30):
I think it lacks like, you know,you're kind of bit perfecto, Jim
Fat kind of kind of figure. There's probably too many
naturally aggressive players. No such thing.
But they went, they went free 0 here and I honestly didn't think
this Falcons had a free zero in them because of their team
makeup. So fair Fox, I know.

(01:13:56):
They've got Monosi, Kaosuke, Niko, like they are going to go
30 at some point but you only. Need.
One player to show up to beat. They didn't get tonked by Mouse
on Inferno, though. That that one's quite funny.
Yeah, yeah. Which, like it's going to happen
because you said like that. There is no spine to this team.
They're just all like, they're all limbs, Brandon.

(01:14:18):
But like when those limbs are Exodia, it's hard.
Who would you sign as the as thethe the 5th and final £1,000,000
signing for Falcons? They just went free and oh bro
why? Why?
You want? Yeah, but you know, Falcons are
going to do this. So, you know, I'm just curious
if you'd agree with us. I think I think bit is a great
choice to be honest, especially because you could take him out

(01:14:41):
of that. Now is probably the appropriate
time to kind of get him out on RV because of how like middle in
they're looking right now. I think that's probably the one
guy I'd say that just instantly elevates the team to the next
level. I don't like the Kicksand
slander. I think Kicksand's all right.
It sounds great, I think. I think Kicksand's.
Brilliant. No, we're we're kicksand fans on

(01:15:01):
this. Yeah, absolutely.
All right. I'm in the right place.
Then he also makes complete maniac plays sometimes.
It's really enjoyable to watch. Just like one round, like 5
seconds into ancient he's already in red.
Don't really know how it's happened but he's got a Mac 10
and he's killed someone. It's great, I love him.
I I lived in in Paris anyway, because I thought, like, what he

(01:15:21):
did with Apex was great. And then we met him outside
after they beat Liquid. Too urgent.
And you asked, I think Sam askedhim something like, you know
about it. And he was like, he just sort of
shrugged his shoulders. And it was pretty easy.
Like we knew. We knew exactly what they were
going to do when they did it. I was like, yeah, you're cold,
right? You're immediately like top five
in the game leaders in the worldfor me after that.
And so like without, we love kicks.

(01:15:43):
And I was trying to think of like what the funniest answer
would be and I have decided it is minus kicks and plus Jane and
just completely Haram ball. But like actually just turned
close to game in into fame and just like you don't do it
anymore. On parivision, man, you see,
you've seen all the young agro riflers that are on that team
now. Like he doesn't play VP.

(01:16:04):
Yeah but but Fame and Flip were also aggro riflers.
It's just Jane then sat behind them trading, which is what he
does now do. You see that horrible fucking
German CS leaks account? Tweeted speaker after Jane.
Could you imagine? How?
Awful that would be. I think, I think a funny signing
as well would be if we're speaking about like your

(01:16:25):
perfecto bit players get Norbit because.
Obviously talent love northern proper sold love northern yeah
like stand above all as soldiersMadden Madden was my guy for a
soldier soldier Madden is a soldier speaking Jamin Norbert
for kicks and and Tessa speakingabout speaking about strange
roster moves. Charlie bring up the taken of

(01:16:47):
the week right minus and Phi S plus grix trust.
We're moving on. We're not talking about that.
I I don't care. Talk about spirit, fucking wrap
it up with a team that I think now I've watched them play.
What is this? That's that's taken.
That's that's just he's. The President.

(01:17:09):
TLDR Helmet wearer. I think I when I introduce some
of my real life friends to to social media manager of TLDR
Dickle, I refer to him as a local eccentric I found on the
street and taken like a level above that can we talk about.

(01:17:30):
Bricks or not really, we've got time to do that.
Yeah, if you want to. Just really quickly I don't
agree with this. Number one we rarely agree with.
Things taken sets, don't worry about that.
Yeah. He's great.
He was like he was on loan to toguns and they were actually
looking really good with him on the team.
And then they just stopped his loan and I don't know why, just
it's upset me because if you look at his recent rating, he's

(01:17:51):
unbelievable. So maybe, maybe it's internal
things with Griggs. Well, apparently he is going.
Almost certainly. Apparently there is a chance.
He's always internal to big, right?
Apparently that is a strong. For God's sake.
He's going to big. So apparently, yeah.
Oh, that's ruined my day. Let's talk about. 01.090 shame.

(01:18:11):
Yeah, it's not 1.2 the other week.
I'd like, I'd like to see Grix get a proper chance because what
happened with heroics, they're not big was fucked.
Oh yeah, but not big. But yeah.
But I wanted to, I wanted to endoff by just talking about Spirit
real quick. Now I've seen them play with

(01:18:32):
Tania, I think I might have changed my mind and that we're
not getting a dark horse winningthe major.
I think it might be Spirit. Don't.
Be just the chosen 1. No, I don't even care about dog
man, Tenir is just so good. This is this is definitely like
when I was like, oh, no, actually Wicadia is the truth.
Like this is definitely that. Like no, no, no.

(01:18:52):
Or like, oh, Sadio man is actually better than Salat.
No, he's not. No, he's not, No.
Because Riccardi is a myth. Riccardi was always a myth.
No, Riccardi was so good. Yeah, you know, he's a myth.
He's a Turkish Diha. That's horrible.
Actually, no, Ricardi is far better than Diha, dear.
He's a fucking bum. But Tenir, man, Tenir is fucking

(01:19:15):
excellent. Like, yeah, he is so good.
He's great. Where did he come from?
Like actually, you know, like. Yeah, he's he was like a he was
like just a piss around them, wasn't it?
He's actually nobody do. You play Websters or I'm making
that up CC? If anyone knows you do because
we definitely. I can't remember, actually, I

(01:19:36):
don't think it was. He was Xanax Orden.
Yeah, he wasn't Webster's. Come on.
What is a Webster's like actually, what the fuck is that?
Like a Belarusian. Team or something?
Yeah, he also won gun 5 guns. Yeah, he was playing.
He was playing with Z and Xbox. Heavy gun.
Are we like a lollipop 21? I don't.

(01:19:59):
I don't. Understand the Jeep for sure
thing by the way, because I got told that he was the analyst for
HO2 and then he gave up and justbecame the star player.
That's what. I got told.
That was just when I was evolution.
Sorry. When I was at university, I was,
I did sports journalism and I was told to cover the futsal
team. I went to one of their training
sessions and was like, these guys shit and joined the team.

(01:20:21):
That's basically what Jake was. Sorry.
He's got like he's watch one, he's watch one for Aki's.
I could fucking do better than this lot and just put himself in
the roster respect. I've got a question.
Obviously you spoke about obviously Zontic.
She would have spoken about Zontics leaving and the spirit
making these changes. Do you think there's a reality
where Zwei gets caught and Zontics comes back?
Yeah, I think it's potentially quite likely.

(01:20:44):
I'd rather see magics back. Magics is pants, man.
So. You just like him, which is
fine. I.
Just like him. I just like him.
I just wanted, I didn't say I think he's better, I just said
I'd rather see him back. I just miss magic.
I'm assuming we like this again,not watch Spirit since Tania's
come in, but I'm expecting with this that Sway has now taken

(01:21:06):
Zontik spots. Yeah.
I think I know Tania has practically every spot he'd ever
want. Swayze's got a few more of his
old spots but he still changed more.
The the thing that makes me think Zontix will come back is
obviously but the spirit post was worded really weirdly.
But also I know how much spirit paid for for Sway and it really

(01:21:30):
wasn't much. Like he doesn't have to do much
for someone to to look at him inDecember after the major and
realize like spirit can make easy profit and he'd still be a
pretty cheap signing for someonewho looked like he was going to
go on and be a star player of a a top ten team because he was
phenomenal during Austin. It was unbelievable.

(01:21:51):
Yeah, it was unbelievable. There's also always loads of
teams who want to sign Russian speaking players.
Yeah, and there's. Just always loads.
I think unfortunately, if this roster doesn't succeed, Sway
will be the scapegoat of it. And I also think regardless of
how good he is, Zontix will inevitably come back.
But yeah, my my main point with Spirit, because they also went

(01:22:13):
Freo here is just I've always wondered whether it was
impossible to have a third star on Spirit just because of how
good Duncan Shiro are and how much space they may take.
But I always said if they could find that third star, they
actually might become unstoppable.

(01:22:35):
And I think Tanir is probably the best person for that because
he is just better at some, better than Zontics at similar
things and also better than Swayat similar things at this point
in time. And I really do think like this
team could be about to become very dangerous.
Yeah, completely agree. They are quite possibly the best

(01:22:58):
team in the world because at themoment it's a little bit in the
air. Obviously Vitality lost.
There was an opening game, was it?
Yeah, that's an opening game. Gentle Mates 20.
They're all of a sudden super fragile.
Mouse are just you just can never call Mouse the best team
in the world no matter what because they just they will just
bottle it. It's like, it's almost like

(01:23:19):
Spirit Falcons just look like the front runners at the moment
and then behind them you have Furia and Vitality.
I probably wouldn't say Falcons still.
You wouldn't even with Monosy inthis form.
He's been much, much better at Pro League.
Like no he has, but like, ask meat the end of October.

(01:23:41):
No, I'm not. Going to do that, can I?
I need to see more. I need more samples.
You're such a you're such a fence sitter.
Put your neck on the line. No love for Cheetah?
OK, in in that case I will put. No, I will put because they've
got to, they've got to integrate, they've got to
integrate Grix. So it's going to take a little
while. No Furia furor in G2 when I said

(01:24:03):
I think a dark horse might win the major, it would be one of
those two teams 100%. But I do think spirit probably
the best team in the world rightnow.
Furor in G2 more so Furor aren'tgoing to be that far behind
them, but they probably do lack that like little extra bit of
firepower that could ever see them be the best team in the

(01:24:25):
world. I don't think we're, I don't
think it'll, I'm not going to say we'll ever see it again, but
I think it'll be a while before we see a team that can be as
consistent as Navi was last yearwithout having that real
superstar which Moladoy is becoming for for the sake of

(01:24:45):
saying it. But.
Even even like 1 superstar is like not enough anymore.
Yeah, I I kind of agree. Like if you look in spirits,
like they've got three of them. I was so upset when Amcal had
made that change where they got rid of height and they brought
in Moladoy and I was like, I don't know who this guy is.
They just started owning people.I was like, OK, that's why.

(01:25:07):
That's just unbelievable talent.It is one thing I've learned
from like Russian speaking teams.
You just got to trust them. They will, yeah.
There's just always a new guy who's.
I remember I was casting him obviously quite a lot in Tier 2
and there was this game on ancient where he didn't, he
didn't even orp once. He was just using the AK.
He was just full W in IT. People just getting like 4K and

(01:25:27):
I was like, this kid is actuallyjust absolutely unbelievable.
No, he's he's unreal. That Fury team is just the most
fun team I've I've watched in such a long time.
Like I I fucking love Fury gamesright now.
Like your kinder when your kinder is good.
Probably the most fun player ever, Molly.
'S ridiculous, but also a fury. Molly is ridiculously fun to

(01:25:50):
watch. This fallen arc is great and
like Kesaro and Yuri like probably like I don't overly get
excited by them but they're alsothe least inoffensive players to
ever exist like. I want them to win the major.
I really want. Them to yeah for fallen on his
greatest ever arc put him he's he's in the conversation if he

(01:26:14):
takes this team to a major OK I actually don't care.
I agree, but so end the end the show then, right Because we've
we've given predictions on previous shows.
And it's we're also an hour and a half.
Yeah, yeah. But Brandon, you just said you
want Fury to win the major, but who do you think is going to win
the major? Furia.

(01:26:35):
Actual serious prediction. Yeah, go on.
Yeah, I'll back. It up.
We'll, we'll, we'll return to that after the major and see
who's got it right, because I have a feeling red knits someone
is going to because I don't think, and I think we've all
said pretty similar teams actually.
I can't even remember who I said.
Well, I've said furia before, and I've also said spirit, so I

(01:26:58):
feel pretty safe with those two guesses.
Yeah, I mean, you've covered most bases there, haven't you?
All I know is it won't be males anyway.
Anyway, yeah, we've been on yourscreen for far too long.
I've been Elliot AZ esque below me on my screen, though where he
is on the other screen is Sam, the other podcast host and and

(01:27:19):
one MO CS2. Yeah, that's the one, the two.
Joining us, joining us this weekwas Brandon B Dog, dog.
It's just, I don't know, it's a really good favorite Golden.
Retriever. Yeah.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Talking through what was obviously the sad parts of

(01:27:42):
Impact and the slightly more funparts of ESR Pro League.
Where can people find you? They can find me on Twitter at B
Dog CS I think. And.
On a CCT broadcast, I'll be there.
Or in a park chasing your own tail.
Exactly. And on that note, thank you very

(01:28:04):
much for joining us. We'll see you all next week for
another another stellar episode.Music.

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