"Spirit aren't better than Vitality": Complexity are right to leave CS and why night maps are a bad

In this week's episode of Overtime on Inferno, Sam and Jack question whether HLTV are actually good for the CS scene and if they've been given too much power in the VRS era.They also discuss the fact that Complexity are rightfully leaving CS, as well as the fact that Spirit are aware that they still have a lot to do in order to truly become better than Vitality.Join the discord:  / discord  Check out Logan's newsletter:https://thestratbook.gg🎙️ Subscribe to the pod:https://readtldr.gg/podcast🗞️ Join +32K readers of our newsletter:https://readtldr.ggBecome a Counter-Strike demon:https://learncs.ggFollow your host and guests:   / an1mocs2    / novahdesign  Thumbnail Jazz by:   / jameshserpa   📌 Interested in advertising with us? Reach out to crew[a]readtldr.comChapters00:00 Intro - Passion UA sign coL11:38 -zont1x +tn1r 18:50 Preasy VRS issues 21:47 HLTV 3.0, is "Round swing" legit?32:53 -zont1x +tn1r 36:25 New update discussion 44:40 EWC winner prediction49:39 Take of the week 55:58 BLAST Bounty review01:04:14 VRS roster overlap 01:09:20 Outro

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
So, Jack. Got some?
What if right you were, you werean org owner.
You might also be a shit footballer as well, but you're
an org owner. OK.
And. Two things that are never going
to happen then actually I have ashit footballer but not a.
Didn't you also own a bedroom org at one point and it don't
matter? Yeah, don't matter.

(00:22):
OK, so you've got this org, and that org is so tied to one
nationality that you even put itin the fucking name.
And then eventually you realizedevery player we've got is is
quite bad. What would you do?

(00:45):
I don't know, because tying an org name to nationality seems
just stupid. Yeah, it doesn't seem.
Especially when you the rest of your name is pretty decent
anyway. Probably.
It's passion good. It's somewhat interesting, but
it could be kind of cool. All right, well, the the news

(01:05):
then is that Passion UA have benched their entire team except
for their coach, TC, the South African fellow.
Crazy, by the way. Coaching the Ukrainian team did
have a fun interview with him about that.
The the fun parts didn't go out.They're supposedly keeping Fen.

(01:28):
Is that how you say his name? It sounds wrong.
He's like, it's the only. 15. Yeah, 2 I feel like it's the
only way to to say his name, butit also just sounds wrong.
Oh, that's not a. That's not a good guess.
In Charlie's recent recent starts.
Yeah, I'm sure he is. Get it, Get it up, Charlie.
Back to the boy. Yeah, 1.2, right.

(01:48):
So that's. That's an unfortunate visage,
isn't it? Oh.
Charlie, go off it, please. I just, I'm not a lot of the CIS
players look weird, don't they? But.
They do. They are a little unfortunate,
but anyway, anyway. In USA, yeah.
Weird. They're apparently getting four

(02:09):
players from complexity. Yeah, not the fun beer guy
either, which is just a let down.
The fun beer guy is crap though.I mean, so is complexity.
Yeah, but OK, there's levels of crap, right.
So they're so they're supposedlytaking JT, who I don't think is
very good, Paul Zirk, who I actually think is pretty good,

(02:31):
Grim, who is good enough for thelevel they'll be playing at and
Nix, who is hilariously bad. Like he actually is really
fucking funny to watch play. He's.
Quite jolly though, isn't he? Oh, he's a nice guy, yeah.
But like, he's so out of his depth the minute that there's a
top 20 team on the other side ofthe server.

(02:54):
Top 100 player? Really.
He is rough in those games. Yeah, he's not, he's not.
But I just, I don't so obviouslypassionate of buying them for
for the major slot, right. Like that makes total sense.
Like I I get that like you're guaranteed the major.
Yeah, right. Our our TLDR writer didn't get

(03:15):
that. Though former former.
Went out in the newsletter. Oh dear.
But what I'm actually going to do, I mean since Jason bought
the company again, he was very preachy about being super NA and
stuff and like are they going tobuild an actual good?

(03:37):
Team, did you? Did you read this HLTV report?
I can't read no. OK, well, Charlie, if you Scroll
down, it says somewhere along the line somewhere here, or
maybe it was in the another report that Jason's been trying
to sell the team for a while, like he has just been looking to

(04:02):
move them on. I definitely I saw that
somewhere. So like, I don't know, it's it's
odd because we know that complexity obviously on like
they don't have that much money because Jason had to spend a
lot. To to get the old.
To to buy them out of game square.

(04:23):
And Dallas Cowboys, wouldn't it?Yeah, before that or part of
that. Yeah, yeah, they're like
subsidiary, aren't they? So it's like, yeah, are
complexity going to have a team?Are they even going to bother?
Is it worth having a team? No.
They need to do what like N point used to do, which was just

(04:43):
like sign the epic land winning team every year.
Like you'd sign the team and winepic land you'd you'd bench them
about 10 minutes later then likea version of that roster would
would never plan and. Just hit them again.
Well, here's the. Funny thing, Dire.
Man, it's dire. But but here's here's The funny
thing about NA, right? Fuck me, is Mars born a real
org? Because I don't know.

(05:04):
I actually don't know such a real guy.
Isn't it? But I don't know like OK.
Blue. There's not.
There's not a full NA roster there, either in the top three
or top 4. Whoopi's Swedish.
Blue Jays is an org. Blue Jays is definitely an org.
Getting info obviously. Because I've played against them
in open OR and team a Blue Jays team.

(05:27):
But is Mars born? I don't.
But even then, right? Like a Mars born.
Because we're on HLTV right ranking right now, aren't we
Charlie? I I when you say Mars born, I
keep thinking you're saying Miles born the the wrestler.
It's obviously not. It means it's Mars bar that kind
of says the difference between the two of us doesn't.
It sure. So like how how many spots do it

(05:51):
make? How many spots do?
Because it's just America's, isn't it?
It's not NA and. Is it?
Is it 6? Is it 662?
I think is a split. No, that makes doesn't make
sense. Well, EU has 16. 16 I I feel

(06:12):
like it sticks for America, but.I don't know but so like so but
but look at this then who can complexity get to be at the
major? Yeah.
Have M80 fixed their money problems I.
Don't know they had money problems.
Yeah, really bad. Dear me, but that like M8 yeah,

(06:34):
maybe not this version of the team actually, but like they've
been decent. They've been like at events
lakes pretty decent. Sure.
The fucking rubbish team though,yeah, I know.
There's something like there's not, there's not a lot.
So like, because, because this is the thing, right?
You look at it and you're like, oh, passion UA passion USA, ha
ha ha ha ha ha. This is funny.

(06:55):
Why would they do that? Complexities bad.
They'll do it because they'll get major stickers.
Easy peasy. Makes sense?
Whatever you spend on that team,I mean, honestly, you'll make it
back on stickers, but. But we've held, so we've held
the major is right now complexity probably will be at
every major is is the reality ofit.

(07:15):
So you will make it back. Can complexity ever build a team
as good as NRG? Which is saying a lot because
NRG aren't fucking good. It's just I mean.
Yeah, NRG have a chair on the team, so.

(07:37):
I I think like it must be a thing that complexity are just
absolutely fucked. They they've got to just be
absolutely fucked. I.
Wonder is it called Gigi? I like, do they have like other
roses and stuff? They have a Rocket League and a
Halo team and they've got some streamers and I don't know.
I don't think that Rocket Leagueteam is franchised.

(07:58):
OK, well, I don't know any of their streamers.
I'm not sure. Can you see where their Rocket
League team is from? They look American or maybe like
Brazilian. I think I'm seeing Rodriguez and
Fernandez so all. Right.
Let me, I don't know, let. Me and Halo Halo's a daddy's

(08:18):
sport. Like, I just don't think it
makes much sense. OK.
I can't see complexity in South America for Rocket League
complex. OK, so Complexity are the 5th
best team in North American Rocket League.

(08:39):
Is that good? Well, they ain't qualifying for
any lands. Right.
Brilliant. Yeah.
So they have a team that aren't very good at Rocket League, They
have a team in a dead E sport, and then they're selling their
other team called us to have like 10.
Piles, I'm sure I've got to. I've got to stop you, man.
I've I've just found Charlie. Pull this up.

(09:00):
I've just found my new favorite bedroom org for doing this.
Whatever could this be? This is fantastic.
How good is that? That's what An excellent logo.
That tree lamp. And they have one player.

(09:21):
Oh wait, I've found another excellent one.
This is great. We should do this more often.
No no, fuck counter strike. We're just looking at Rocket
League bedroom orgs now. This is great omelet omelet.
I like that. That's OK.

(09:41):
Oh, they've, they've made me. And and player Lion Blaze, who
left Omelette to join at Schnitzel House.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
After talking about complexity, which I never liked doing, that
9 Lives logo is quite nice. By the way, if you look on the
little Kitty, the new team, I I quite like that.
It's not. Listen, you're not making a lot
of money with it, but it's not. But it is.
It's cute. It's cute.
It makes me want to. Yeah, sure, man.

(10:04):
You. Know what I mean?
Anyway, so yeah, back to. Counter strike Good for, good
for. Is it?
Is it Zinchenko? Is it Zinchenko?
Yeah. Good for him.
Rubbish player. Is he actually?
Does he play for? Cheeks, He plays for Arsenal,
but like he. Doesn't he's a gooner?
That needs to stop then it like it just just as another another

(10:26):
side note here, they got to stopcalling them gooners man like.
I saw a tweet yesterday that said like, I think Jockares had
28 hair touches and only three touches of the ball in the
United game yesterday. It was 2 actually.
Was it two? Yeah.
That's awesome. Terrible.
Yeah. Gooner FC.

(10:47):
Isn't it? Isn't it I?
I feel like Charlie can confirm if he's going to grace us with
his voice for one second. I think it's the players are
Gunners and the fans are gooners.
I think Charlie is that correct?This is like gooner theory.
I have no idea, I thought they'djust use Gunners and gooners
interchangeably. No, no.
That's that's evil. But so like, does that mean that

(11:10):
the fans goon over the players? Let's let we can leave that.
There. All right, let's move on.
Let's move on. Charlie play the fucking music.
I'm sure there's a I'm sure there's ACS team called Wanted
Goons or there's an org called Wanted.
Yeah, there's ACS team. Well, there was.
Oh, they have a team play the music.

(11:38):
All right, all right, let's moveon.
Let's talk about a real team that we actually give a fuck
about. 9 pandas. Well, let's find out.
Let's find out. There's a guy called Killer
Pandas there. Let's find out if Zontix and
Tania can fight nine pandas, because apparently, and this

(12:03):
happened, he's fucking lost his stab.
Look at him, he's struggling. What a Dick head.
This is going to make no sense to the people that are like
listening to this in the supermarket, the store, if you.
Want the supermarket common Whatyou're you're buying?
Yeah, Yeah. Let us.
Let us. Know probably food.
What a stupid question. What do you did you?
Find any bargains and you buy one, get one freeze.

(12:26):
Yeah, so. Why are they finding pandas?
I think I've missed something here.
It was an old bit of mine and Elliot's that was something to
do with Just like can X player take on 9 pandas?
I. Understand.
Yeah. Yeah, cool.
Yeah, shit bit. Anyway, Zontix is supposedly
losing his space on Spirit, despite the fact that they've

(12:48):
won the last two events, one of those being IEM, Cologne and
Teneris. Coming.
And one of those being, you know, a studio lamp.
Yeah, a lot of bollocks. I didn't get paid enough for it
so I don't give a fuck. Anyway, so this happened, this
came out a week ago, right? Which was really unfortunate

(13:10):
because it came out like it feltlike hours after we recorded,
which seems to happen every weekat the moment.
And I think it's really fucking good, but I don't think we've
spoken about it at all. So what's what's, what's your
thoughts on it? Today is really good young

(13:30):
rookie. I think he's like 24 yeah, but
he's like by by a mile the best player on on heroic and he gets
better when he plays better teams.
If you filter like top five, I'mpretty sure he gets even better.
OK, I'm. Not sure.
Well, HLTP seems to have broken that's.
Well, that's their fault. But yeah, he performs better

(13:51):
against good teams, which normally isn't what happens for
your your sort of Tier 2 rifles and stuff.
Like, again, Zontex isn't bad. There's a thread on actual TV
that said that magics and Zontics are like your alcoholic
parents. Like, they're not doing much
good for you, but they got you to where you are and you just
sort of live with them anyway because like, you know, it's

(14:13):
their house. Magic's fair enough.
Zontics. Not so much, no.
No, no, no, Zontics if like I'm not being funny, right?
We've how Zontics is, if Zonticswas an alcoholic, that
motherfucker abusive like he's beating the fuck out of you.
I don't care if he's like some little fucking twink twig.

(14:33):
He's still going to kick fuck out of you just because you've
like looked at him the wrong wayand you didn't even look at him.
It's just his drunk mind is telling you that that that
happened. Yeah, but yeah, like it's the
same sort of for the magic spin,right?
Like it kind of sucks, but the two weakest parts of of that

(14:56):
team, William Madison's Ontix and Chopper respect the GOAT.
OK to the team is really good. Like he is just going to improve
that team, which as spirit, I think said and then if you'll
maybe don't say that like like, OK, we don't we're not the best
we've been vitality, but they have just won the last two

(15:17):
events, right which. Vitality.
So this is no, but this is the thing right?
Spirit look far better now with sway than they did with magics.
But these these last two events do have a caveat in that
vitality just haven't really turned up to them.

(15:38):
Like vitality were woeful in thesemi final in Cologne against
mouse. Truly terrible.
I think that was the worst game they've played out of all the.
Ones since with Rob's, yeah, I would say.
And then you look at blast Bounty, they didn't absolutely
like molest NRG. Like it was like work, but it

(16:01):
wasn't a full fucking. They didn't touch them up like
behind a dumpster in an alley like it wasn't.
No. It wasn't illegal.
You can put it on. Myself from making a joke about
someone that will maybe get me in job job trouble.
OK, yeah, let's not do. That, but I'm sure you can get,
you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(16:21):
Like Liquid, they fucking scraped past liquid really
considering it was too overtime.And then the Mongols, I mean
they were really unfortunate probably to not make it OT
considering the Xywu Blitz 1V1. Like Blitz did just randomly
Crouch and that lost them the game.

(16:47):
But yeah, like, so Vitality, of course, they're off the boil a
little bit, but that is a caveat.
And if you look at Vitality withthe idea that, you know, maybe
not EWC, but what's, what's the event after EWC that actually
matters? Oh, blast that.

(17:09):
Matters right or. No, it doesn't not matter.
It's just got online first stage.
There's EPL that's also online. So what is what is happening?
Plus London Dracul, Draculan, Bucharest with a $9000 prize
pool. If they don't, there's a big

(17:31):
mistake. Yeah.
I mean, I mean September has London Fisher 2 and EPL.
Wow, CAC crap count. Strike CAC.
'S got those weird invites rightwhere they've ignored the Rs
rules, I think. Peter L Bucharest, Romania.

(17:52):
I'll tell you what that I guess that's the next big land of the
year. The rest of the year looks
fucking shit. We've got Chengdu at the start
of November, so. It really does look crap,
actually. How?
Great, is it? Oh, what a fucking
disappointment. I'm an.
Idiot, right? Really quick, but go on.
Bucharest has a 1.25 million prize pool.

(18:17):
OK, the major listed as 1.17 like 1,000,000 a 170.
That will be because. Is that because they get paid
through the, you know, the fucking?
That will be. Stages and stuff or.
A moron that would be, because HLTV, for some reason, and it

(18:38):
really, really fucking annoys methat this is a thing that they
do for every fucking event, listit as three separate events.
So that's the prize pool for stage 3 teams.
Right, OK. Yeah.
Well, I get that, but also can we just on on that topic as well
HLTV like obviously great, greatwebsite, very, very glad they

(19:01):
exist, but the fact that Valve like made them the the dictators
of how vRS. Works.
It's so ridiculous. It's not their fault, it's very
stupid from Valve. Yeah, because it's because it's
that tournament at the moment, isn't that I can't think was it
Prezi that we're posting about it?
Let me let me have a look if I can get it.

(19:22):
I know Mezioso is very vocal on.Yeah, yeah, like really good
from him, by the way. Like he the guy's a walking rule
book, but like. Nerd.
Yeah, so, so this was this was it.
Let me send this to Charlie because this is actually like
pretty important. So Prezi posted a tweet that

(19:44):
says so much for rules in CS2, asmall counter strike event in
Dubai follows every guideline, sent HLTV all info a month in
advance and got told the day before it started that it
wouldn't get vRS because they didn't like how the prize pool
was announced in brackets total versus per game.
I'm really 100% sure what that means.

(20:05):
Meanwhile, the CS as the championships CAC changes slot
distribution after the deadline,sticks to an outdated vRS state,
gets special wild cards, and keep keeps full vRS.
Either both get vRS or neither does anything else.
Smells like nepotism to me. Oh and by the way, HLTV didn't
tell them anything. They didn't help them.

(20:26):
They simply ignored them as a media and as a monopoly holder
on the scene. Well played HLTV.
Ironically, the reason why not giving the event vRS is the fact
that they didn't make the info they got more than in God.
That was a hard sentence to read.
Very, very. Transparent they got more than

(20:46):
in time public. Would this have happened if tier
one teams were attending? I think not.
That's what we see at the CAC event and also Dubai Police
tournament #5 actually did announce surprise for several
several times. But not in the way HLTV likes it
apparently. Is that like this this can't

(21:08):
this just can't be allowed? It can't go on.
And I don't like, I don't overlythink it's, it's down to HLTV
being, no, it's because they're generally not complacent people
that we, you know, we happen to know them personally and they
are all exactly as autistic as you think they're going to be
like. Maybe not all of them, but most

(21:29):
of them. Yeah, most of them.
Yeah, they're great blokes. They're but like.
But the issue you don't work. For HLTV, without being a little
bit on the spectrum, that's all I'm saying.
I'm not going to say it, but butStriker tweets on the other day.
I'll pull it up you. Don't have to name names, no.
No, no, no, no no. Love the guy but he's tweets
some stats. Tweet which?

(21:49):
Oh mate, that's right, that tweet gave me a fucking
headache. I know exactly what you mean.
Now that tweet's a fucking headache.
I'll just send it to Charlie so we can get that and this is not
take of the week, but this is just something I need to.
Yeah, no, no, we got to talk about how Counter Strike could
be. We're very all over the face of
this episode. We are.
But we'll get back on track. No?

(22:11):
But yeah, so for so for the nerds indeed.
EKPR and KPR. So kills for round and expected
kills for round is my guess. I'm sorry.
I don't. Fucking basically the same.
Oh maybe it's eco eco kills for rounds, but basically the same
for Dong for the ancient game. I'm sure in part because of what
I said below, although not sure it's full story.
He's quite tweeting here. Rating 3 point O beta did bring

(22:32):
him down to 1.31 over basically zero round swing.
Fucks that average though, whichshould also be influenced with
the state of the rounds in whichthe eco and dealer kills happen.
But hardly buy much in an OT game.
So I don't hate the data. I think data is really cool, but
I think as an editor in chief ora writer, it's kind of your job

(22:54):
to make it adjustable for peoplewho aren't aware of the system.
Yeah, this is just not digestible.
I think like, like if I want to see the spreadsheet, like I'll
go on one of Harry's tableaus orsomething, right?
And like you can do all your research there, which is super
cool stuff, but ratings 2.0 is cool in in theory.
But like all these metrics, likeI know why they won't explain

(23:14):
how writing works, right? Because they own, they want to
own the IPI get that, but it's difficult to have conversations.
About when? We miss the criteria, so here's
the. But also, yeah, like.
Here's here's the thing on this,is that Harry rightfully
realized a while ago that HLTV in the way that they looked at

(23:37):
the game, in the way that they analysed certain things, like
especially when it came to the top 20 list, it was really
outdated and really actually quite fucking stupid because the
way they do it is like, well. Vibes.
No, no, the way that they viewedit was like, well, imagine that
you're trying to explain to an alien the top 20 players in the

(24:01):
Hungarian third division of football.
Like the alien won't know what roles are so you've got to give
them numbers. Which is why Harry went cracked
on coming up with every single stat in existence.
And ruining. The problem is is he has just
gone too far. He has now become stat mandate.

(24:22):
If he is a parody of himself, isexactly what he never wanted.
To insists upon itself. And if he insists upon himself,
Yeah. And if Charlie scrolls down, I'm
pretty sure there are just multiple responses to this where
people like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like, there we go. Like, yeah, like, no one knows
what this fucking means. And round swing, by the way, I
can't remember what round swing is, but I remember when I first

(24:44):
saw it I was like what the fuck is this?
I fucking sent it to a. Couple of round swing it is.
It's a proxy for some of a. Which the kill you get how that
affects the likelihood of you winning the round?
Is that what I'm understanding? I don't know mate, I don't care.
Because that's what it sounds like it would be.
Charlie, so if you Google like HLTV, what is roundswing or
something? I like having a little, little

(25:07):
slave to do things for us. That's good, isn't it?
Awesome. OK, maybe maybe that.
Oh wait, yeah, the Reddit one. The Reddit 1.
This might be on me again for not reading the presentation and
not doing the research, but again, like the average person
ain't doing that. Like maybe I should.
That's part of my job. But people.
Your job is make pretty graphic.No, no.

(25:28):
But I should know none of these things work.
Right, design is my passion. OK, so the biggest innovation of
rating 3 Point O is introducing the concept of round sync.
Essentially how a given action by a player influenced their
team's probability of winning around.
This effectively replaces the HLTV's current impact rating,
which is a load of bollocks and takes into account a lot more
data. The most basic way to influence

(25:49):
around is obviously to get killsin high leverage situations.
The slide gives an outlook at how valuable kills are depending
on the number of players left oneach side.
Assuming full buys for both. Read it like this.
At 5V5 the T size win probability is 48.8% since yes
it's a slightly CT sided game overall.
Should the TS get a kill that increases to 70.2%, meaning the

(26:11):
player who got the kill just swung around by roughly 22% in
their team favour. However, if the player gets the
last kill in the 5V1, that barely registers, just a 0.1%
round swing. So this, so this is the thing
right? The entire thing is a proxy.
And I actually like, you know, I've got a couple of friends

(26:31):
with like statistics type degrees and a few of them are
into Counter Strike. And when I first saw what round
swing was, because I like I've read that before or not that,
but something similar before, I just forgot whatever it was
because I don't fucking care. And I sent it to them And I was
like, does this actually mean anything?

(26:51):
Their response was just. No, their response was just.
This is one of the most nonsensethings in Counter Strike.
Like again, it's cool to measure, but how tangible is it?
Like and like obviously you haveto use it as a metric for for
other things, right? Like right, like rounds were on
it's own, like unless you're having a live rounded

(27:12):
probability thing, which honestly could be kind of cool
for T OS to do. This is not like as a as a
viewer, yeah, like, oh, this round is favoured because of
this. That's cool, I guess to see.
But again, yeah, like, like is this particularly valuable
outside of the ratings you want to?
Maybe not. The The thing is, is and it's

(27:33):
it's my issue with all fucking shit like this is OK, sure a
5V4IN favour of the tea side is 70% going to go 70% of time
that's going to go the way of the tea side.
So that's also like. So not just inherent.
As well. So.
So what did it? What did it say?
Then what was the round swing? I can't remember.

(27:54):
Charlie 22% I think was. It 2022% so 22% right?
Does that count cancel out if they lose the round?
No, I think it's just the likelihood of them winning it,
Right. OK.
So, yeah, yeah. OK, so the Teesside has. 5D does
that. Does that not mean like entry
fragments are just going to get way higher rounds the?

(28:15):
Teesside has five deagles. Ron Mirage dunks on the
Teesside. He runs out mid one, digs the
OPA for the rest of the round. They don't get a kill.
It's also, and this is where I just like we when we had the I'd
expect that rounds conversation like years ago, whether we could
get like AXG in football, right?And then bring that into CS like

(28:38):
economy is the is the is the third metric that's really hard
to measure that a formula can't take into account unless you
have maybe there's a again, I'm going to bring something now
being off topic, but like, is there a economy swing which like
a zero to A1, right. And then the decimal and that
effects round swing. Do you know what I mean?
Like an entry, an entry like open it, open it like that on an

(29:01):
eco. It should be worth less than.
And this is and this is the the thing as well, like round swing
only works if you've if you've gone that deep, if if you've
looked at it at like, OK, what'sthe eco round win?
What's the anti eco? What's the fucking the the full
force by the all all of this bollocks.
And it's also how much are killsworth?

(29:25):
Like how much is a kill on an ifyou're looking at Mirage right,
how much is a kill on an A anchor who's pushed all the way
through palace worth compared tothe A anchor if you kill him on
a site? How much is killing the
connector player worth in in terms of actually winning the?
Round does he have a buy? Do we have a buy like like all
these different? Things so many different factors

(29:46):
we're. Thinking these guys are cool and
figuring this out is awesome, but there's so much more I think
to be done. And I don't know if you ever get
if, if the final outcome is actually any worth having than
just no, I don't think looking at look, watching the game, do
you know what I mean? Yeah.
Like and I don't think. I don't think it is.

(30:08):
Because also, like I said, like I don't have a big impact on
this as well. Yeah, system as well.
Like I remember one thing me andHarry worked on at one point was
to try and make the idea of positions outdated and make it
so there was like, what do you have as roles, right?
You have like your star opener, your supportive opener.
So like Hooksie, Nico, Tess, Estan, whatever.

(30:34):
You've got your Orpa, you've gotyour like more passive
supportive player who's probablylike A and a site entry and
you're closer who's your more like Starler, right?
That's what that's what you've got.
Now me and Harry were trying to turn that into like 15 different
things because systems make it so different like.

(30:55):
It's the way that like a don't kind of reign on not the same
player even though. They're the same role on paper.
You know you can. You can highlight like 4
different types of authors, for instance or.
You device very simple exactly. Or what's the difference between
apex and hooksy because they're both often in the pack.
About .3 rating. It's just, it's just Apex, you

(31:16):
know, is, is throwing a lot of support if utility, whereas
hooksy is being supported by letting himself be traded.
Like it's, it's all these thingswhere like the reason that we
didn't do that and that you can actually see Harry has
implemented this in in certain places, because in certain
places you'll just see things like crow, wolf or lamb pop up.
And it was all names based on animals and how they live and

(31:40):
their positions in the world andwhatnot.
The reason we stopped is becausewe just couldn't be bothered.
It was it was so much worse thatwe.
Really like that again, like only a select few people
actually care about or understand really.
Yeah, and I'm this is, this isn't me talking shit about

(32:01):
anybody, by the way. This is just me knowing people.
I'm not sure any of them actually have the energy or the
extra 10% along the spectrum it takes, which is a fucking big
margin by the way, to actually make Round Swing truly

(32:22):
representative of Counter Strike.
And I just think if the stat isn't truly representative, what
the fuck are we doing? Like why are we talking about it
but also why the fuck are we talking about stats anyway?
Because shocks is always right. Counter Strike is a game of
love, and it's just how you feeland experience it.
Five fingers on one hand, that'show it is.

(32:45):
That's the shock speech. No, no, sure.
But like it's just this. I think it's my negative
connotations of you, Jack. Let's move on.
Let's let's go back. Let's circle back.
I have no idea what that circle.Back.
Yeah, yeah, you're just a deviant, mate.
Let's circle back, Tania. Yeah.
That was that was what we were talking about.

(33:07):
It's a good move. I think it's, I think it's a
fucking. It's a great Oh, wait, no.
Yeah. I'm sure we'll end up on a good
team. Honestly, I think that's
reasonable. After a bit, goes to.
Falcons, yeah, I think it's a great move.
Like you see, you saw it this way, you now see it with Tania.
Spirit are aware themselves thattheir team is not good enough to

(33:28):
compete against a Vitality that's firing on all cylinders.
And when Falcons have the five players because they don't have
the fight, you can make all yourfucking memes of like, oh, just
one more player. They don't.
They don't have that. Get over it. $10 million,
please. When When Falcons have that
spirit with zontics and magics and probably zontics and sway.

(33:50):
Yeah. Wouldn't would never be able to
match up to them at peak levels,and that's how it's.
Good GM ING to make changes before you have to right?
Which is like basically what face have never done.
Which is what? Which is what Spirit, Yeah.
And it's what Spirit didn't do because they won the major.
It's what Vitality did do when they won the Paris Major and

(34:10):
they brought in flames. And this is the thing when
you're looking at CSCS isn't a league system, it's a tournament
system. So everything you do in terms of
building a team when you're one of these contender teams has to
be built around the idea of peaks because consistency
doesn't matter. If you look at Heroic with
Kadian, they were consistently the best, if not second best

(34:34):
team in the world. If counter stroke was 38 games
over a league system, they'd have won the league every
fucking year. They just they just would have.
But like, you know, they'd be maybe once or twice they'd be
Arsenal, but they just didn't have the peak in them to
actually close out events. Spirit are trying to just get

(34:56):
the highest peak they can and but also at that point then a
consistent peak and that is. Not well again, it's like if you
keep pushing your ceiling higher, eventually the floor
shouldn't come up with it, right?
Yeah, it's very already have a high ceiling, but that floors
the floor being magic since on takes it's not that so.
Yeah, and it doesn't matter how good Donk is, it doesn't matter

(35:17):
how good Shira is because they are both exceptional, even if
Shira is a fucking bitch. Two players versus 5 players.
I know which team wins. Yeah.
And also objectively, like I think it's people don't actually
appreciate she wrote enough on that team.
No they don't. This is like us.
I think he's a fucking GIMP. Second best OPA.
I really like, I really do thinkhe's a pussy in that video from

(35:39):
the the what? Was he doing in the video?
The Shanghai Major. Oh, the one where he's like
crying between maps and magic sass to tell him to stop being a
bitch. Yeah.
He's emotional, yeah. Yeah, he's heading Cologne.
I got no respect for him for that, but he's fucking good at
the game, that he is just good at the game.

(35:59):
And it's one of the and I don't think people realize how good he
is because people look at him and Tulsi and they're like, oh,
they're similar players. There's like a .1 free
difference in them. They are not similar players at
all. Shiro is a lot better, I would
agree. But yeah, so let's, let's let's
move on. We've searched about for a
while. Let's talk about the latest

(36:23):
update because. Yeah, really good update with
not much complaints. I've had better FPS.
I don't know if that's the case for everybody.
I haven't been able to play the game since it came out, no.
Yeah, new music kits. Good for those of you who care.
Who you who give a fuck? I I don't not me.

(36:45):
I think I've had the same one for years.
I think I have music off anyway so I don't even hear it.
Animation changes like, that's fine.
'Cause the car spring frame. Bookie it's a new M foreskin.
Yeah, foreskin. There's actually kind of cool
like it has like it's like a mountain scene, but it like

(37:05):
they're all different patterns. I think there's like 1000
patterns, so that's I'm sure there'll be a cool one there at
some point. And then there's like they made
they made ancient like wet and and changed some smoke on UPS
and changed at 1 angle which is OK and then made another version
of ancient where it's just nighttime.
That's only in deathmatch. Yeah, so let's start with the

(37:28):
actual changes to ancient. I don't need maps to be wet.
I don't enjoy that. Like OK.
It's a slipping hazard. Really, this is it is that's my
concern. This is a good update, but I
don't like the parts that come with the maps.
The map a bit like, is that justnot like a like a nothing update

(37:48):
though? Like, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So like you.
Changed the lighting like is that?
Well so here's the thing, the map looks nicer, but I don't
need wetness, I just don't need it.
Like it just makes horrible. I would play on like Orange Box
maps if I could, honestly. Yeah, yeah, the less detailed
the back. I just I just wouldn't give a
fuck the angle that they removedthe the temple to a main angle.

(38:14):
I haven't, I haven't played it yet, so I don't really know how
it plays out. I don't play a but I know that.
Angle was so so I play it a lot.That angle is a guaranteed kill.
Yeah. Exactly, it's it's a stupid
angle because like when you're sat there with an OR, there are
so many different ways that you can be sat on the angle that

(38:35):
you're actually not pre fireable.
Everyone tries. You don't die on it, you just
don't die on it. The only way you die on it is if
you like fucking. You rub your eyes as they peak
you and for some reason you take7 years to rub your eyes and
they can actually like aim on your head.
It's you don't die it's a guaranteed kill.
So now you know you're ever going to have to play CT and

(38:59):
hope you can kill someone beforeyou get smoked or you're going
to have to play at the the big box and and fight for your life,
which is a much more fun play style anyway.
And if you're playing in Temple,you're a bit of a pussy.
True. So.
Yeah. I think, I don't know it's.

(39:20):
Not bad. Yeah, it's not bad.
And maybe maybe you could say that sometimes it's not bad for
CTS to get a guaranteed kill because it is very much like a
what you should never be getting2 kills from that position.
Like if you get 2 kills from that position Because someone
someone said this in the TLDR server where it's like, oh will
A be easier to rush now anyway? And it's like, yes, A will be

(39:45):
easier to rush, but that's only because if a guy is there, you
were always going to lose a player to to that.
Well, yeah, that guy and also. But if you're losing more than
one, it's. Kind of easy to rush anyway,
because yeah, there are generally less people there.
But if like if you're losing more than one player to that
guy, you were. Right.

(40:08):
Yeah. Is it like you, you fucked up
anyway. Like you, you have fucked up.
You don't need to do that. So yeah, who knows what that
change is like I might just randomly in a few weeks time
just bitch and moan about it because it will affect me.
It actually I think the night time stuff that's kind of cool.

(40:32):
I wouldn't hate a night time mapbeing in the actual comp pool,
but I guess you'd have to make sure visibility works.
So how do you make a map at night time that's not dark
right? Like it needs to look.
Well, well, so right. So that's.
The I've not played on the nighttime vision yet.
So no, and I don't intend to because I.
Don't really play Valve DM so. Yeah I don't want to play DM on

(40:54):
ancient for one and I definitelydon't want to play casual.
I am opposed to a night time mapbecause I do think that how do
you make night light thing it just isn't worth doing.
And if there is ever a night time map on it like in the game,
I want it to override agent skins.

(41:17):
But you can't allow agent skins on it because we know what cash
was like man. And fucking green cash came out
and there was just everyone's using the fucking green agent
skin because you could literallyblend into walls like.
That Halo active camo, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Like I don't, I don't want that.And to be honest, I just don't
really want a nightmare in the active pool anyway.
Yeah, that's fair enough. But this update does worry me

(41:40):
that it will come because we've already got glow in the dark
major stickers you remember likethe the paper ones frosted glow
in the dark. So yeah, so man.
So you got to understand like Valve just used Counter Strike

(42:04):
because it makes them money. They don't give a fuck about the
game. Like they really don't.
They, they, they like occasionally fucking do things
to make you think they care, Like they'll, they'll blow up
the partner system and make their really cool new system
that works really well. And like, you know, then maybe
you'll think that they give a shit.
They don't give a shit. They make so much fucking money
off this game that if they see now that people like Wow glow in

(42:28):
the dark stickers on a glow in the dark map, it's just fucking
cool. We'll we'll spend more of these
if that is something that happens in their data, we will
get one in the active duty pool and we will get even more
outrageous glow in the dark citybecause at the moment they just
kind of like glow an orangey colour.
You'll get like fucking full on like neon fucking party looking
stickers like they, they will just but they'll replace

(42:50):
glitters or foils, whatever the fuck they're called, and it will
just be like neon stickers for one of the next two majors.
It will. Just never cared about stickers.
No I don't. I don't really give a fuck like.
Really don't get it. I'll open some because I like
gambling. Yeah.
Yeah, it's like, it's the reality.
It's like, oh, I got this like, and this is the gold one.

(43:12):
I'm not really, I'm not really impressed.
I don't really care. Yeah, yeah.
Like I'll put a couple. If it's a player that I like,
I'll put a couple. Like yeah, I've.
Got players like I like or like,like players I know like I've
got some of them on my skins, but like.
Yeah, yeah. Like I've got my AK slate that's
got cipher all over it. Yeah.
Because if Scipher's just a great guy, like he's just.

(43:34):
Yeah, exactly. But that's like, that's for the
senior show though, right? Like.
Yeah, yeah, I'm. Pretty sure I scrape all my cigs
anyway so you only see the the name anyway.
Yeah, yeah, that's just I openeda few for Austin, got an Alexi
B1, put that on my AK because. Yeah, exactly.
Like it's whatever, but like I don't know, I wanted to say as

(43:54):
well in this update that so the the last last, but one point
about FPS Max can't be changed while connected to a server, I
think. Is that not to do with the B hop
exploit, right, Yeah, because you could.
I think if you limited FS 64 youcould.
Yeah, you could. You just had the hop script.
And if yeah, you could have a toggle that when you jump it

(44:16):
goes, you can basically play in your full FBS but B hop at 64.
Yeah, and. That's broken, so that's fair
enough. I like that that's the way they
fix it, not fixing the fact thatyes, momentum was tied to to
frame rate, but. Well, like, I guess it's a
Band-Aid. Let's hope so.

(44:37):
Yeah, OK, let's let's let's moveon, Move on.
We were going to talk about E Sports World Cup.
I realized we actually did that last week.
So I don't think there's any point in us talking about it.
This. So we got winning.
I think we've got print predictions when I was here
maybe? I don't know.
Who have we got winning? I think see I want to do.

(45:01):
It's Falcons. Excuse me, Falcons.
I want to do a really funny thing.
Be funny. And say I don't want to say.
We said G2, I'm sure you said G2, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure I said G2 are
going to win it. I'm going to stick by that.
But I'm going to say here's my funny prediction.
OK. Team Liquid will be in the semi
finals I. Didn't see them there but yes I

(45:27):
mean they have to be vitality and title shot probably.
Yeah, I am actually. If they beat mentality they they
will be. This, this, it could really be
ruined by the next week. But Charlie, if you just search
EWC Club Championship, because I've actually been watching more
than more of EWC than I'd care to admit, I'm actually quite
invested in this club championship.

(45:48):
Yeah, yeah. Who's How's the race going?
It's been a free horse race the entire time between in these
three teams, and Falcons only just went into the lead because
they got third place in Pub G and 3rd place in Rocket League.

(46:13):
Also like like E sports will correct criticisms and shit
aside, this club championship's really cool.
I think it's it's it's really cool and especially when you
look at the fact right. So Falcons, there are 5 events
left in AWC. There's Crossfire, Counter
Strike and E Sports. That.

(46:33):
Exist. Falcons have 22 teams attending.
They have 4700 points at the moment.
Liquid have 13. They have 4200.
That's where it's really cool because that's where you
realise, like liquid you. Can't just have a team in every.
Game Liquid outside of their Counter Strike team right now

(46:54):
are a fucking elite esports organization.
Like they got they obviously have Magnus Carlsen, they won
EAFC. That was a guy called Manu
Bachori who I thought that was apretty baller name and I can't
remember what what else I think.There's only three games left,
by the way. Is there any free this week?

(47:14):
So yeah, Street Fighter 6 and Crossfire.
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, could be, it could be
very interesting because you getlike 1000 points for a win and
then I'm not sure what it is forsecond or third, but but yeah.
So yeah, I think Team Liquid, Liquid will need to get like 3rd

(47:35):
off Crossfire and Vitality of CSand I think Vitality are also in
Crossfire. I think it was one of the
Crossfire players today plays the other day.
So they could they could push themselves back up.
So yeah, the club club Championship I actually think is
really cool. So yeah, have you got a, have
you got a hot take for it? For the club championship or for
the CS tournament? For EWC CS tournament.

(48:03):
Something says Falcons might be able to do it on home soil,
which is obviously a joke because there's not a single
side player on the team. Spirit doing 3 back-to-back
would be pretty pretty cool. I am a spirit fan like like even
by pre donk era I've always liked spirits so I'm not glory
hunting I suppose. Because you smoked crack.

(48:27):
Yes, actually. That's an inside joke that would
not be making it to the podcast.Yeah, I I don't know, man.
Like, is it, is it a single limbas well?
Isn't it? Yeah.
Single limb and then that's the third place decided.
That's funny, actually. But This is why UWC is also
quite good, because it fucks offevery format in every game.

(48:48):
And it's like right single limb,we ain't got the time for this
bullshit. Like, yeah, it's, it's good.
Fuck with it, I fuck with it happy and also like you know,
Aurora and VP aside. Some pretty fun teams though as
well. Yeah, it's a good team list.
Like generally a pretty balanced.
It is a good team list and teamsyeah and apparently the players

(49:11):
all really like it there cuz thehospitality is really.
Good. Yeah, I no doubt it is.
Yeah, I've been seeing videos. Not sure we'll be seeing ESL
impact in DWC. I've seen, I've seen videos of
like the rooms people get there and it's like insane.
Like this guy, do you see the guy who said he's turned up to
do CS observing and it's a room for one and it's got like 4

(49:31):
separate fucking rooms? Like it's so stupid.
Awesome. But yes, OK, take of the week
time. Boom.
Take of the week I. Want to add on this take of the
week. We generally it's because we
disagree with them. I think they're stupid or like
we're like ha ha laugh at this person.
This one's good. I'll let you recite it, and then

(49:51):
I'll. So what day is it?
So it's the 18th of August today. 11 years yesterday. 11
years Yesterday the Olaf Meiser diffuse happened, earning Kim a
graffiti that is still in the game to this day and at I Buy
Power Gold replied to this saying.
Crazy that sticking a diffuse inA4V1 with 20 seconds left on the
bomb and four kits in play warrants an 11 year graffiti

(50:14):
that survived a map update. Yeah, and then Michael Anti 8
responded because it was crazy and Legendary defused that score
at 1414, but it wasn't. Yeah, it looks like you see
that. No, it was.
It was stupid. Like that runs a lock anyway.
Yeah, like I get like he was on the bomb.

(50:36):
So like, like you may as well stick it.
Sure, it was kind of nothing burger.
What The only possibility of a legendary play there is that
whichever whichever one of them is left alive, I can't.
Remember if a short player like gets both, everyone up through
the smoke. Yeah, the only way that's a
legendary play is if Dignitas win the round, not Fanatic win

(51:00):
the round that like, let's let'smake that clear.
But we just wanted to quickly talk about just how shit all
these graffitis you're also attached to, just how shit they
generally are. So like, we'll go, we'll go
through them. Cold Terrors was pure luck.

(51:20):
It was luck, but. But it's the one I've got the
least problem. With this actually like this was
a round swing a game swing graffiti right like this
actually affected the outcome ofthe game and also they went on
to win the major. So like this is definitely
legendary in that capacity. I would say yeah.

(51:41):
So I don't hate this one too much.
I don't actually like the designvery much, but I don't hate this
one. No, I think it's.
Really. I'll have to use Fuck off we.
Just we just said, yeah, like, did it really?
It was just silly. Olaf Boost.
It's a sign, not graffiti, but I'm fine with that one.
I think that's. I think these little fun ones
are actually quite nice. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
That's like some character like obviously there was like

(52:03):
controversy with that one. So that like, it's a cool, like,
oh, we changed how the map looks, so here's a sign
commemorating the moment. Yeah, that's OK.
The double orp no scope, great. Honestly, honestly great.
I've got nothing to say about that one.
It's not on the new cache, is it?
No, no it's not. That's because I don't think FM

(52:24):
Pone owns it. Freiburg, his little sign in
banana. This is via Adama.
But not anymore. We're not on new new interview,
no. Yeah, but like, no issue with
that. That's fine.
Dozier's fucking grenade though?Literally didn't do anything.
Oh, like two people died. It was like he accept that to
the. Economy shut the fuck up.

(52:47):
Shut the fuck it had no fucking like it had no impact.
None. It's also like throwing an aid
in into a place where people saving is not new.
I'm pretty I'm pretty sure as well.
Didn't immortals win the next round?
Probably. I think they.
Did I'd have to go back and check I'm I'm pulling that up.

(53:08):
So this was round 11. I want to check this just
because that would be actually kind of.
Funny, I'm sure immortals win the next round.
Let. Me, look at that Gambit
immortals match page. Inferno starts round 11 6/7, 992

(53:33):
No, but they won the following 2after that 1, so no.
But you know, again, it just didn't matter really.
Yeah. And by the way, that would.
Only happen I don't know who zooms that game.
I don't I don't know, like thosejust play with servants that say
the kiss just cast the match. How trouble explain the strategy

(53:53):
for the view? No no no it wasn't.
I just genuinely think that likebecause the observer clicked the
follow grenade button. Is there a reason anyone knows
what gets about it? Yeah, I agree.
So we go down. Again slogan Italian says no,
you cannot escape now. Like, I don't know.
I don't. Know like.

(54:13):
You were escaping. You're saving anyway, so you
wouldn't be escaping, you'd be standing there.
We go down again. Fanatics for orbs.
This was a very Mickey Mouse time of Counter Strike, do you
know what I mean? Yeah, like it's funny and I know
I've said I'm OK with like the all off 1, but like that, can we

(54:37):
be real? Can we like?
I don't know, yeah. Did it matter?
Especially since we haven't had a new graffiti in a long time as
well. Like it.
It kind of sucks to like this play, got that.
But then there's been some playsI think that should have since
then that haven't, you know? Because there's been a few in
the last few majors where it's like, that's a graffiti play,

(54:57):
yeah. Yeah, yeah.
But and then the last one, whichis just like horrendously lazy
and terrible, is Asia winning a show match on the Danger Zone
map and then getting to put signatures in the game.
And I'm not going to even fucking talk about that one
because remember? The engine zone.

(55:18):
Remember that? That piece of shit?
I played it once and never touched it again.
If it was absolutely awful, yeah.
And before anyone says oh you did really bad, I came like
second. I didn't even do bad.
It was just shit like that, right?
I was our shit and CS made a very lazy shit 1 and I think it
like I think it did get better, right?

(55:40):
Didn't they actually add quite alot of fun stuff to it?
Like I don't think, I don't think, I just remember, I don't
think there was like jump packs in it when it first.
Came that stuff was a lot of jumping packs and being able to
like Goomba stomp people was pretty cool.
Yeah. But like that's.
So Jack, do you find it hard to keep up with all the news and
counter strike? I do, I took a weekend off and I

(56:02):
came back to six new IG LS3 retirements and apparently
Malbees water boy got picked up by a top 20 team.
Right, that's why I've been relying on the TLDR newsletter.
It's a biweekly e-mail that keeps you up to speed on
everything in the CS scene without needing scroll.
Read it for three hours while questioning your life choices.
Yeah, it's like if HLDV had a baby with your funniest friend

(56:24):
who actually watches every game.Yeah, quick hits of news, spicy
officer moves, upcoming match schedules, and even some insider
gossip. All killer, no filler.
And let's be honest, some of these tournament formats you
need a guy just to figure out who's playing who.
TLDR breaks it all down so you actually know what the Hell's
going on. Plus, it's funny.
Like actually funny. It's like reading a group chat

(56:47):
between smart CS fans who roast everything insight but still
care deeply about the game. So if your brain's full but your
heart still beats for Counter Strike, do yourself a favour,
sign up for the TLDR newsletter.It's free, fast, and guaranteed
to make you smarter, or at leastsound smarter in Twitch chat.
Check out the link down below and subscribe, because the only
thing more tragic than missing amajor upset is not even knowing

(57:08):
it happened. TLDR you don't have time to read
everything you still want to sound like you did Anyway.
Let's let's let's wrap this up with blast bounty then because
that did happen. Spirit 1.
Beat the Mongols. Beat the Mongols 2.

(57:28):
Best teams in the world? Really no surprise there.
I don't want to talk about it, I'm not asked.
I do want to say the Mongols aresteadily getting better though.
I think they they'll win a trophy by by the end of the
year, I think. Yeah, because it's this is the
thing, right? The Mongols are steadily getting
better. The problem is, is that steadily

(57:51):
getting better in Counter Striketerms is just so hard to
actually properly look at it. Because when you see like,
development, typically it's justlike a line that just goes up.
But in Counter Strike, you know,it's fucking up and down,
fucking zigzagging all over the place and.

(58:12):
So this is important. This is important.
It did give us. I don't.
Know what it means but. Which for those who.
Share does get a like? I don't know.
But those who were just listening, Shiro uploaded a
photo of himself with the trophy, but he's edited.

(58:33):
A Twix. Over the trophy.
I'm not sure why. I'm so confused by.
It I guess he's got a few Twix up his sleeve.
That was really. Bad.
I wish, I wish we'd already spoken about everything because
I would have just ended the podcast there without an outro
and then told you to fuck off and record 1 by myself.
Give you give you some minutes. To.

(58:54):
You can do that later, yeah. OK, let's.
Yeah, it it was predictable. Yeah, I think the.
Apex has been kind of moulding. The quarterfinals were kind of
crap. What happened to Aurora?
A mirage was hilarious. Sorry, that sorry, there was not
a single series that went a distance.
Look at that. Yeah, what a crap playoffs,

(59:17):
right? The losing team never won a map
even in question the. Quickest tournament ever?
Even in the best of five, the losing team didn't win a map.
It was close on some at least, but.
So yeah, Aurora completely collapsed, liquid vitality was
strange, Australia's males was predictable and Spirit VP was

(59:38):
predictable. But we should probably talk
about vitality Mongols before wedepart we.
May. So Senzu and 910 performed which
they are Mongols, his main win conditions great Vitality looked

(01:00:01):
pretty hopeless on Mirage. They were not great on that map
I. Said the king.
And Inferno, they were really unlucky to not get overtime.
But the problem is, is that like, this is the second
tournament in the row they've gone out with a 2O score line,

(01:00:23):
and that's a lot more worrying than them going out with a 21.
Yeah. Or was it 2?
No, it was 2O in Cologne. Yeah, that's a lot more
worrying. This is also like, I don't want
to take away from Mongols or Marriage in Cologne, but this is
not just those teams playing well like Vitality obviously
are, are not performing at the correct level right now.

(01:00:46):
Yeah, I mean Charlie, if you go on all maps again yeah, so
flames is negative there not since I like barely not really
doing much pretty 4 flames was mega negative against mouse in
Cologne. So it's it's just like not a

(01:01:09):
good sign for vitality, but not like panic stations.
But I do I also think like I think this.
Was we don't get as good as theywere by like not being able to
forget through these things, right?
Like I'm sure they've probably like had prac weeks where
they've played shit and prac andthey've figured that out, right?
So. Sure, sure.
Like, I mean, they were saying that before Dallas, I think.
Maybe, yeah. So like it's not, it's not like

(01:01:33):
dreadful and like you still lostto it would be good.
They're not losing to shit teamswhich is fine.
They're still getting top 4. Yeah, like that, That's bad for
mortality in recent form, right?So yeah.
But it's, it's not too worrying just because it's the way that
they're going out. But I do just think like when
you have a run of dominance likethey did, you lose your first

(01:01:57):
game, It's whatever the second game you lose, you've got or
like the next tournament, you'vegot the doubts or whatever.
And maybe that's two or three tournaments.
They could still absolutely win the major.
They could only get top fours for the rest of the year and
then they'll win the major and they'll look like vitality from
the first half of the year. That's something we've.
That shouldn't surprise you. That like obviously, oh, the

(01:02:20):
pressure, the pressure, the streak, like yeah, there is
pressure and like, oh, losing, losing that losing the legacy in
the major helped them. Oh yeah, probably did.
But once you felt losing for a long time, you haven't.
I'm not saying that yet. You get OK with it, but like,
you don't want to go undefeat again.
Like the chances are you'll loseagain.
Does that make sense? Yeah.

(01:02:40):
And I don't know whether that's like some fucking manifested
spooky shit or there is like provable data behind it.
But like, I don't know they're. Just I just like.
That's something good, but. It's just one of them like.
I think Apex has been very self critical though.
Yeah, but there is a reason why sports psychologists exist,

(01:03:03):
because you also don't know likewhen they lost that game in in
Cologne, there's five different people that could react in five
different ways to that. Like, you know, like let's let's
say Mesi went from that. He was like, right, I'm going to
like, I'm not losing again. Don't like that.
Like they obviously will, but like he's the one that is like
fucking determined from it. But maybe.

(01:03:25):
Yeah, he probably lost the major, but lost the game and
then went just as much for threehours.
That's the kind of player he would be, right?
That's how he'd respond. But like maybe maybe Flames or
or Apex or maybe one of them is like, oh, how do we get back to
the point we were? Or like, you go to the next
tournament and maybe Rob's is like, oh, we need to bounce back

(01:03:45):
here. These are all different types of
pressure. These are all different
responses. These are all different things
to manage. You can't expect them to then
just bounce back and win the next one.
And it also doesn't mean the Vitality era is over, like if if
they get top four in the next two events and then win an event

(01:04:06):
and then get a top four and thenwin an event, like we're still
in the Vitality era at that point.
Australia's had an era in which Liquid won, Won a Grand Slam
within that era, do you know? What I mean exactly?
So yeah, exactly like like an era is not a streak of wins like
it, like it is that it needs that.
But an era of dominance is is not just yeah, winning

(01:04:28):
everything. In a game where there are so
many tournaments all the fuckingtime and sometimes the team
doesn't even attend the tournaments, then the era is the
period in which that team was was the best in the world and
just because spirit of like taking it now because they've
won two events on the on the bounce, which is how it works,

(01:04:50):
by the way. It's just how the ranking system
works. If Vitality win EWC they'll go
back above spirit most likely. I imagine in every case they go
back above spirit if they win it.
Almost definitely. In which case, was Spirit ever
actually the best team in the world?
Yeah. Like, yeah, I just think it's

(01:05:13):
one of them. It's not really worth talking
about until we can do it in hindsight.
Like, of course we can talk about it now in a way, but like,
I think it's one of those where you'll never know until you're
looking in in hindsight. I will just find a tweet like
name mentioned major vRS but I can't find it but I'll I'll try

(01:05:41):
and just like verbatim quote it but that the new vRS there's a
possibility where like a team a player can be invited to the
major onto different rosters. Oh no, I did see.
This diagram with Zai Wu on G2 and also Vitality I, I can't
find it, but that's interesting where that's allowed to happen.

(01:06:03):
I don't see a world where it does happen this major,
obviously, but man. VRS I'm just getting so.
Many fucking. Tweeting holes, football,
soccer, soccer role vRS. Let me see if I can find it real
quick, because yeah, no, this isactually a very big problem.
I've got it, I've got it, I've got it.

(01:06:23):
Yeah, sweet. Yeah, yeah.
Well, we'll actually end on thisbecause this is really bad and I
can't believe there's an oversight like this.
There you go, Charlie. This isn't taking the week, this
is vRS issue of the week. Yeah, it seems like we have one
at every fucking episode. So OK, so this.
Comes yes, but Larson, by the way?
Yes, but Larson 222 saying can aplayer be on two different line

(01:06:47):
UPS? Invite for the major.
Yes, that is absolutely possiblewith the latest roster code
changes in the vRS model. No, it was also theoretically
previous. Theoretically possible with the
previous model, but much less likely as the new code opens up
a longer window for overlapping ranked rosters.
Maybe this topic has been touched on before, but it
probably doesn't hurt repeating how the new roster rules work

(01:07:10):
for new players on the team, as I think it confuses many people
and does not yet become general knowledge.
The new rule is basically that anew player on a team will not
become eligible for the invitation ranking roster of a
team before having played five games previously.
The roster from the last game before the ranking cut off would
simply become the roster listed on the monthly vRS Invitation

(01:07:32):
rankings, meaning a new player would be listed after the first
game. Which if people remember is why.
Like M80 had issues because theyplayed with Keto earlier on in
the year. So that's a tweet.
It says let's play a game of crazy fictional roster change.
To serve as an example of how itworks.
Let's imagine that Vitality in G2 agrees to swap all of us

(01:07:52):
after EWC. Xiao goes to G2 and some Pius
goes to Vitality. So on this thing, Charlie, if
you if you Scroll down and just keep the graphics there.
So as you can see in the example, as per the new model,
the rosters that would be listedfor Vitality in G2 would both
include Xiao Wu and some Pius would be on Neva.

(01:08:12):
This is because St. Pius didn't play the required
five games with the new Vitalityroster for the roster to update
in the October ranking, while G2played more than 5.
So their roster did update. Please note, and this is very
important to realise, that a roster move like this would not
impact the vRS points by the team.
So it it goes on a while and I can't be asked to to read it all

(01:08:33):
out. But if you're not looking at the
tweet, basically the graphic shows that because Vitality only
played one event with some Pius.And they don't get enough
matches. And they only play four.
Yeah yeah and G2 play two matches, play 2 tournaments with

(01:08:56):
with Zai Wu, then some. Pius is on neither team.
Yeah. So there's.
Like, will this happen? No, probably not, right?
Yeah, it's incredibly unlike. But the fact that it's possible
is an is an issue, not the double invite, because that's
you can just go, oh, we'll just,you know, fix that.

(01:09:16):
It's about the surprise would beineligible.
And a you know, a system of rules is only as strong as its
weakest rule, right. And if you can make changes to 1
like, oh, we could ignore that rule because it's impossible for
zombie to play for both teams, obviously, right.
Yeah. And then you start getting to
more issues, right, Which what we're seeing with CAC and having

(01:09:37):
like their own kind of basicallydomestic invites and not really
following the vRS principle on how they can give out invites on
wild cards and stuff. But so so yes for Larson Wright
describes himself as avrs nerd and really knows who this guy
is. But his entire tweet like

(01:09:58):
Twitter feed is just about vRS like his most recent tweet.
If Charlie just pulls it up, I'mnot going for it.
But if Charlie pulls it up just for the sake of it and has a
lifelong interest in programming, this is all great,
right? But like, why the fuck is yes

(01:10:19):
for Larson, this random guy? I assume he's a random guy
Anyway, the guy pointing all this shit out.
Yeah. Why?
Why do Valve not run through this?
And this is what I mean when I say Valve don't give a fuck.
And this guy's posting this shitfor free, just just on Twitter,
just because he's interested. Yeah, 700 followers, yeah.
Yeah, like you've you've just got to understand this Val do

(01:10:41):
not care. And with that, I think it's time
for us to depart Jack and it is and Charlie.
So in that case, I've been Sam my my Twitter's animo there's
ones and s s there's actually only one of each, but you know,
they they're there there's there's a 2 at some point.

(01:11:02):
I don't fucking. See as well.
Yeah, there's at least one of them.
E Jack, something about Nova H and maybe a design.
Charlie has been here. You even heard his voice today,
which is fucked up. I can't remember what his
Twitter is. And James will also do so.
It's on the screen, isn't it? But yeah, darts yourself, you

(01:11:25):
twat. And yeah, no, James also does
this, does stuff for this. He exists in some way, shape or
form. James does exist.
We'll be back next week. We'll be talking about the E
Sports World Cup, and then I won't be here the week after
that because I'm going on holiday and fuck you all.

(01:11:46):
I simply don't care about any ofyou.
I. Do.
I care about the ones of you that are mean to Jack and Elliot
nice to me, which isn't many of you, but the ones that do your
special. We can do a vote, guys.
Who's the best overtime on Inferno Duo?

(01:12:06):
Because you're only getting one of them anyway.
So yeah, we'll be back.