May 14, 2025 • 25 mins
Two voices engage in a spirited philosophical debate that cuts to the heart of modern spiritual practice: can religion exist without spirituality? Can spirituality thrive without religious structure?
The conversation begins with defining terms – spirituality as the personal, intuitive connection to something greater, and religion as the framework through which we express that connection. One host suggests spirituality represents the magical, chaotic element while religion provides necessary organization. This framing becomes the foundation for exploring what happens when these elements fall out of balance.
Through candid exchanges, they examine religious organizations that have lost their spiritual essence, becoming what one host describes as "cults" rather than true religions. The emptiness of ritual without connection becomes painfully clear. Yet equally problematic is spirituality without structure – the hosts suggest this explains why many pagan paths struggle with continuity and growth despite their appeal.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when examining how pagan traditions often deliberately separate responsibilities: high priestesses focusing on spiritual nurturing while priests handle organizational elements. This intentional division allows both aspects to flourish simultaneously, creating a more complete religious experience that honors both structure and spirit.
What emerges is a compelling case for balance. The ideal spiritual path contains enough structure to provide direction without suffocating individual connection. Like a "vague-ish path in the woods" rather than complete wilderness, spiritual seekers need some form of guidance – especially those who struggle with self-teaching. Yet this structure must remain flexible enough to allow for personal exploration and emotional connection.
For anyone questioning the role of organization in spiritual practice or feeling disconnected from overly rigid religious structures, this conversation offers a thoughtful middle path. The hosts ultimately agree: while spirituality can exist without religious structure, and religious forms can exist without spiritual depth, the richest, most fulfilling path combines both elements in a dynamic balance that shifts naturally over time.
Join us for more thought-provoking conversations by visiting lifetempelseminaryorg and connecting with us on social media!
Join us on
Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Okay, can you have religion without spirituality?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
This is a good question.
Me personally, I don't thinkyou can.
I think they go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, what's the difference?
What is the difference betweenspirituality and religion?
How do you see that?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I see spirituality as more of your connection to
whatever it is is out thereRight Right.
Religion is what you do toexpress that connectivity.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, I mean, if we sort of look at it in a slightly
different way, all right, if wethink of spirituality as magic
or chaos, complete random stuff,and religion as organization.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Okay, but then you're bringing a whole magic aspect.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, no, I said sort of like magic Okay, but then
you're bringing a whole magicaspect.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Well, no, I said sort of like magic, Okay sort of.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
In other words, it's that random, it's that so
personalized to one individualit's hard to explain to others.
Okay, I got you All right.
Your spiritual when we call itall spirituality, but it's your
perception of it versus.
Spirituality to me is a lesstangible thing than religion.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
yeah, yeah, that's, that's the reason why I said
yeah to me.
Religion is you, is the way youexpress it it's, it's the
rituals it's the, it's theburning of the incense, the
meditations, all that stuff.
That's how you're expressingyour connectivity to whatever it
(02:12):
is you believe in.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Right, because again you wind up with this whole
entire thing of do you believebecause you worship or do you
worship because you believe.
Which came first, the chicken?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
or the egg.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I mean, again, it's still the same, we're still on
the same argument asspirituality or religion.
Yeah, all right.
Well, again, I think you canhave a religion without
spirituality.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well, I was going to say when you put it in that
context yeah, yeah, I think youcan what.
I think you can have onewithout the other.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, you can but I think when working together they
complement each other a wholelot better, absolutely All right
.
So again, the idea here is tokeep that balance.
How do you keep thatspirituality, that randomness,
are you with me and still beable to organize to make sure
(03:07):
everybody shows up to the ritualon time?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, I mean, that depends on whether or not you're
working with a coven, if you'resolitary.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, I mean just any religion, because again.
I mean, I know, but I'm justsaying yeah.
If you're coven being a part ofa church whatever, when you
start making committees aboutcommittees, that just sucks all
the spirituality out.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
If you're on your own .
I think it's easier to do,because then you don't have to
worry about this person and thatperson.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You know what I mean when you're doing it but I think
that what happens is you windup losing the religious side of
it Right, but that's what we'retalking about.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You don't have to have one to have the other.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, but just like I said, I think they actually
complement each other.
If a religion had bothspirituality and the religion
together, it's a whole lotbetter experience for everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, now, okay.
Now, here's the funny thingwhen we're talking about that.
I think, based on what we'vejust discussed, right.
You can have spiritualitywithout religion, but you can't
have religion withoutspirituality.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You sure about that?
I think so, I don't know.
I've gone to a lot of churchesand a lot of religions and some
of them seem quite mundane.
It's like all the spiritualityhas been sucked out.
We're going to just do thisover and over again.
It's the same formula, right,and it's empty, and it's empty.
To me that's not religion, no,it's not.
(04:38):
But yet I see religions do itall the time to some extent.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, but, and again my opinion, unpopular opinion,
whatever you want to call it, Idon't think that's religion.
You can't.
In my opinion, you can't callthat religion People do, though
that's a cult.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
That's not a religion , that's a cult.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
But again, people do this, people fall into this,
people go in there Well, surethey do.
And again, the spirituality'sbeen done and it's been ripped
out.
You have to do your.
Everything's very structured.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
But again, that's not religion.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
That's a poor, very, very poor substitute.
Like I said, that's a cult.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, I mean, you might as well just look at it.
Well, think about it this way,think of Scientology.
Yeah, I mean, this is whatwe're talking about.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
As an example of what I'm talking about a religion
that has no spirituality to it.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, from what I know ofScientology, no, there's no
spirituality there.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
No, it's all biofeedbacks and all this other
stuff.
So again they exist, so you canhave a religion without
spirituality.
I'm not saying it's good, Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
And, yeah, we'll beg to differ on that because, again
, I cannot call that a religion.
Well, again let's talk about.
You know, when we talk aboutspirituality, going haywire too,
oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, I mean this winds up with the pagan standard
time and you're not havingritual until midnight for some
dumb reason.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Well, and it also.
It also goes into if you're toospiritual, then you're not
grounded, you're not, you're notin this world and your head's
always in the clouds, right,you're just kind of your space
cadet academy number one, youknow.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
But then, in that it seems like religions without
spirituality, they're missingsomething.
Yes, All right.
Now again, don't get me wrong.
I'm with you.
I think spirituality should bepart of religions, but I think
humanity keeps on doing the samething.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
We like to organize ourselves, sometimes a little
too much.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
A little too much, and that's where I see the
felon-ness in certain religions,even though they're trying to
keep the spirituality, butbecause they have committees,
the bout committees.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well and see, okay, that's one thing I like about
our group.
Right, everybody bringssomething different to the group
.
I bring a more emotional aspectto things.
Right, you bring a moretechnical, authoritarian type
and I'm saying type of energy.
It's not, you're more like thefather figure.
(07:26):
Ok, right, lady Alba she's.
She's more like a mother figure.
Right, she's also more like afather figure.
She's a very strong woman.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You know, other members of our group bring
something different to the groupand I think, using that, we we
help with that dynamic whichkind of helps keep that quote
unquote chaos aspect you weretalking about right in place,
where it's not always the samething over and over and over
(07:57):
again.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Right, but there's a little variety, little right
different way of looking atthings, to make it more.
I mean, how many times can youlisten to the story of Noah's
Ark and not go?
Okay, can we make this a littlebit Right?
So I think this happens lessand more pagan in covens versus
(08:21):
in churches and other religions.
So we specifically sit here andtell people okay, our women or
our high priestesses handle ourspiritual nature when our guys
handle our mundane or thereligious aspect of religion.
Separating up the two jobs so weget the full force of both.
All right.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
To some extent.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
And I'm sorry with churches and stuff like that,
where you only have one pastor.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Well, I mean, like growing up, we had our main
minister, our main pastor, wehad an associate minister and
then we had deacons.
At any time the pastor couldpass off to the associate pastor
and say hey, you want to do thesermon this week.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I understand that, but I mean they're not assigned
a specific.
At no point does anybody, doesthe pastor ever look at a deacon
and go okay, yourresponsibility is the
spirituality of our church andnothing else.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Where I'm sitting here saying for us pagans or for
yeah, we have that diversity.
We sit down, we tell the highpriestesses this is your
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
This is your responsibility.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
This is the guy's responsibility, right, it is
your job to bring in thatspiritual aspect into our
religion, right, that emotionalconnection that we don't have
anywhere else.
Right, by separating up themtwo jobs, we get more of a full
force of the punch.
Are you with me, right, jobs?
We get more of a full force ofthe punch.
Are you with me, right?
I'm sorry.
I've seen Lady Abba do manyrituals, oh yeah, and trust me
(09:55):
she can.
I can't explain it, but I'veseen her do the same rituals
over and over again, and eachtime.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Something different, something different Something
emotional.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I'm sorry, it's what they're good at.
I'm not knocking or's whatthey're good at oh yeah.
I'm not knocking or anything,don't get me wrong.
Lady Oppa can run the businessside quite easily.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Oh, yeah, yeah, if she had to.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
You know.
But I'm not sitting theresaying that I haven't tripped
over to the spiritual sideeither as a priest.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, no, I mean, we've all had to at some point,
so but yeah, we do have thatdesignation, that other
organizations, other religionsdon't have that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
we specifically have a person that represents just
the spiritual nature of ourreligion.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
But now question All right, since paganism is not as
big as some of the majorreligions, right?
Is that what's holding us back,see, I don't know.
Or is that what sets us apart,and maybe that's the reason why
we are so small Comparatively?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
speaking, I think there's other reasons for that
besides this, okay, of why inthe world paganism is still so
kind of small okay I thinkthere's other things there.
I'd to be quite honest with you.
I I think it's more us yeah ingeneral, it's the pagan
community in general versus youknow in other words, we're
(11:26):
forcing it to stay.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I did in the smaller numbers I think.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I think a lot of people don't always.
Unfortunately, you have a lotof people that will sit there
and you could talk.
You've done it before.
We've gone to a gather.
You talk to five differentpeople.
You get and you can hear themall say five different things
and you're so confused by theend of it.
You're right, what was thepoint of even showing up?
Right, you know, you go to oneclass, they tell you one thing.
(11:51):
You go to another class, theytell you something else so you
think.
You think it's not necessarilythe fact that we've divided up
the responsibilities, but it'sthat we I think we don't have
any continuity in thequote-unquote community I think,
think like certain religionsdone that in paganism we've
dropped the ball on thereligious side of this.
(12:14):
Everybody just wants to do justthe spiritual, Okay, and that's
what I think drives most peopleaway, because there are no
consistencies, there's noguardrails, there's no, nothing
like this.
And you sit there and youlisten to the podcast over and
over again.
(12:34):
Everybody seems to be flying bythe seam of their pants.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, I mean most of the ones that we see on YouTube
or you know the big famous ones.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well, not even them, just some of the.
You know the everyday, regularbig famous ones.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Well, not even them, just some of the.
You know the everyday regularpeople who are putting stuff out
there.
Smaller, you know some of thesmaller podcasts, not
necessarily the bigger ones, butyou know a lot of them.
You're right, they're all doingthe same thing.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's kind of like fly by night, fly by night and keep
going.
And you know night, fly bynight and keep going.
And you know our beliefs willchange as soon as somebody comes
in with a better idea.
Right, you know?
Because we're always sittinghere looking at the door,
looking for something better tocome in okay all right.
And again, I'm sorry, that's nothow you, that's not how you run
(13:22):
a religion no, it's not thereare a lot of things in this
world that are good for us, butwhen you take them to extremes,
they're not.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Extremes have their place, but only in small doses.
Right and again my opinion Ithink we need those extremes.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And I'm not saying we didn't need them, it's just
living there is not a good thingfor us.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
No, it's not For any of us.
No.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
All right.
Absolutely not.
And I'm sorry, this is all Isay on these other pagan in the
pagan community at large iseverybody is always the extreme,
it's always something.
And again, how are you going tofollow a religion?
But yet one lady sits there andtells you over and over again
oh, I can't meditate and all mykarma seems to go on my daughter
(14:13):
and not me.
Really, hey everybody else inthe world.
karma works this way, but yetyou Well that's neither here nor
there, because you and I Ithink this is part of our
problem is everybody in thepagan community wants to be so
special that they're drivingpeople away.
(14:33):
Yeah, all right, it's that guythat you know, and every time
you talk to him, oh yeah, Ijumped out of planes, I've done
this, I've done everything thatyou've done.
They've done better.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I actually work with a guy who's like that, but you
know what I'm talking about.
I'm sorry, this is what I seemainly in the pagan community.
You can tell me I'm wrong.
Well, and and sad part is is,you know, even for those people,
there's really no way tovalidate what they're saying.
We just we have to take them attheir word and keep going you
(15:05):
know, but it does.
It kind of gets irritatingafter a while and you're like,
can we not just have aconversation?
I mean why do we always have toone-up each other, right?
I mean, you know?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
why?
Why does everybody have to bejoan of arc from a previous life
, right?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I don't get it there was only one Joan of Arc.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But I think these are the things that are repelling
people away from us.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It could be.
Yeah, it very well could be,all right.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I mean, at the end of the day, Christianity really
hasn't changed that much.
Everybody knows the rulesPretty much.
Yeah, All right, but inpaganism, every time you turn
around they're changingsomething for some reason
whatsoever.
Well, yeah, but in paganism,every time you turn around
they're changing something forsome reason whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Well, yeah, well, and I think, that.
That's part of what makes itappealing to some people is that
it is so flexible, but I kindof think you don't need to be so
flexible when it comes toreligion, slash spirituality.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I'm like you.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
You need those guardrails.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You need a balance between the two.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Right, you need a track that you can follow if you
will like a train.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I would even go as far as just a Vegas path in the
woods.
Okay, I mean, if we could atleast get that far.
But right now it's not even apath in the freaking woods.
It's just a Vegas path in thefreaking woods.
It's just a vague-ish path inthe woods.
It's just everybody going offin 50,000 directions all at one
time.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Right, it's kind of like coming across an area that
looks like it's been trodden.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
But you can't really tell.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But you can't really tell.
You know, we've all seen thosedirt roads that have been grown
up.
Nobody's been down and you canbarely see them anyway I'd like
the paganism.
I like paganism to at leasthave one of those okay, more
than what we have now good luckwith that herding cats.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I know I mean it would be nice, though it would
be nice I don't think I be nice,I don't think I'm like you.
Well, maybe I'm not like youBecause I think it needs to be a
little more structured thanthat.
Right, I really do.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I mean I think there needs to be more structure there
and natural.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And, let's face it, most of the people who come to
us, they're looking forstructure.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
They've seen what's out there and they're like this
is it's too much chaos, it'sjust, I need something that I
can I forge a path into right.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I need somewhere where I have at least some
stepping stones to get where Iwant to go right so how can we?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
okay?
So then, how can we?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
but yeah, what do you hear in the pagan community
when you hear people pop up likethat oh God forbid.
No, no, no, how dare you, howdare you.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, that's what I was going to say.
How can we translate that intosomething more for the general
public, more for the solitaries,more for the folks who you know
, who don't want to be part of acoven?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right who don't want to be part of a coven Right.
I mean, I'm sorry, but theyhave to make their own decisions
.
Then I'm sorry, right?
So?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
there's really no way to make any structure for.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
For them.
No, I mean if they're refusing.
I'm sorry.
If you refuse to take up thereligious side of this, that's
your problem, not mine.
I can't make you.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
No, but I mean, I know some solitaries and they
balance it quite well forthemselves.
Yeah, but when it comes toother people, it's almost like
they can't translate that intosomething that they can pass on
You've got to remember noteveryone is self-motivated, Not
everyone can self-guide orself-teach.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I mean, there are people in the world that require
a classroom.
That's very true.
Yeah, all right.
I mean, they can't doself-study, so, yeah, those
people need the organization.
Now, for those solitaires andstuff, the only thing I start to
have to ask them is are yousure you're getting everything
you need?
You think you are, you'reacting like you are, and all
(19:14):
this, but is it really Well, isthere?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
another level there that you could reach if you
actually took on a teacher andlearned some things I was going
to say, and that's not to saythat you're going to get
everything you need from ateacher or from a classroom or
from, you know, being in a classwith other students.
You're still going to have todo some stuff on your own.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
But I think you've got those building blocks, that
kind of help.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Well, I think it helps when you have a priest
that you're seeing, like eitherevery full moon or something
that's looking at you.
Oh, how's your meditationsgoing?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Oh well, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, and even then, it's not a pushy thing, it's not
like have you done yourmeditations lately?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
No, it's more like this How's it going, how's it
going?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
How's your meditations going?
Well, you know, and we've hadsome people come up.
Well, I've hit this hurdle.
Okay, what can I do to help youget past the hurdle Right?
Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
But, but yet I've seen a lot of people that have
gotten to the point in thepaganism where, even if you talk
to them about teachers, they'reready to set their hair on fire
.
Oh, absolutely yeah, all right,that don't help.
And just because you can't dosomething and you go to a
teacher to try to help youfigure it out doesn't mean it's
(20:35):
a bad thing on you.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So basically what it boils down to is we can can't
structure us.
If that's even a word that'snot I just made it up.
Hey, we can't.
We can't put things into astructure for something that
(20:58):
doesn't exist and for certainpeople that just doesn't exist.
So we can't do that.
Basically, what we can do is wecan just talk to them and kind
of help them along if they wantit.
Now, if they don't, we'll justsit and we'll talk about
(21:19):
whatever bullshit I don't hear.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Again, it's a difficult conversation because
everybody wants a spirituality.
I understand the drive for it,don't get me wrong, and there's
nothing wrong with that.
It's just at some point you'vegot to put a little organization
in there.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, see, okay, as far as that goes, and I guess
for me it's been a littleorganization in there.
Well see, okay, as far as thatgoes, and I guess for me it's
been a little different becausespirituality came easy to me.
I always had a connection tospirit, Right, Whatever you want
to call it.
I always had a connection to itand it's always been phenomenal
for me.
(21:58):
What helped me balance that inmy daily life was religion.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
It gave me a structure, by sitting there
telling you hey, you can't justsit here all day in this
spiritual bliss.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Right, but it gave me stuff that I could do to
express my, like I said earlier,to express my connectivity to
spirit.
I find comfort in that.
Me personally, I find comfortin it.
I find it very beautiful, Ifind it um relaxing in some ways
, where I don't have to.
(22:35):
It's like I don't have to do awhole lot of anything really.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
But I've got something that I can physically
do to express how I feel, right,and I think that's a beautiful
thing.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
All right.
So, roughly saying, we've cometo the conclusion you can have
spirituality without religionand you can have religion
without spirituality.
But we still think our best betis to have both yeah, if at
have both yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
If at all possible.
Yeah, I think the balance.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
There is a whole lot more important.
I think both aspects areimportant for humanity and our
religious and spiritual growth.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And it's going to be like a seesaw.
It's not going to be 50-50 allthe time.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
No, no, we understand .
You can move that pivot pointaround anywhere you want to
along that line, that's that.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's where, as you, as you put it, the chaos comes
in right.
That's keeping thingsinteresting things you know a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It's going to teeter one way or the other other, and
sometimes it's going to takeover, sometimes it's not,
sometimes everything does justseem very mechanical, but then
the next time you go around, thetables turn slightly and you're
just completely in spirituality, absolutely.
I mean, I've been in a lot ofrituals where that just suddenly
(23:54):
seemed to have happened.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
My last ritual.
Actually, I don't feel like Iwas completely there, so you
know it was.
Uh, it was quite interesting,it was, wasn't it um.
So you, know, it.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, it happens, it does yeah, all right, anything
else coffee coffee.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Let's go get coffee, thanks.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempelseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter.
Maze of stone and mire.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing
pyres.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, and so it is the end of
our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, and so it is the end of
our days.
(25:03):
So walk with me till morning.
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Okay, can you have religion without spirituality?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
This is a good question.
Me personally, I don't thinkyou can.
I think they go hand in hand.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, what's the difference?
What is the difference betweenspirituality and religion?
How do you see that?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I see spirituality as more of your connection to
whatever it is is out thereRight Right.
Religion is what you do toexpress that connectivity.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, I mean, if we sort of look at it in a slightly
different way, all right, if wethink of spirituality as magic
or chaos, complete random stuff,and religion as organization.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Okay, but then you're bringing a whole magic aspect.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, no, I said sort of like magic Okay, but then
you're bringing a whole magicaspect.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Well, no, I said sort of like magic, Okay sort of.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
In other words, it's that random, it's that so
personalized to one individualit's hard to explain to others.
Okay, I got you All right.
Your spiritual when we call itall spirituality, but it's your
perception of it versus.
Spirituality to me is a lesstangible thing than religion.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
yeah, yeah, that's, that's the reason why I said
yeah to me.
Religion is you, is the way youexpress it it's, it's the
rituals it's the, it's theburning of the incense, the
meditations, all that stuff.
That's how you're expressingyour connectivity to whatever it
(02:12):
is you believe in.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Right, because again you wind up with this whole
entire thing of do you believebecause you worship or do you
worship because you believe.
Which came first, the chicken?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
or the egg.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I mean, again, it's still the same, we're still on
the same argument asspirituality or religion.
Yeah, all right.
Well, again, I think you canhave a religion without
spirituality.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well, I was going to say when you put it in that
context yeah, yeah, I think youcan what.
I think you can have onewithout the other.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, you can but I think when working together they
complement each other a wholelot better, absolutely All right
.
So again, the idea here is tokeep that balance.
How do you keep thatspirituality, that randomness,
are you with me and still beable to organize to make sure
(03:07):
everybody shows up to the ritualon time?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, I mean, that depends on whether or not you're
working with a coven, if you'resolitary.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, I mean just any religion, because again.
I mean, I know, but I'm justsaying yeah.
If you're coven being a part ofa church whatever, when you
start making committees aboutcommittees, that just sucks all
the spirituality out.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
If you're on your own .
I think it's easier to do,because then you don't have to
worry about this person and thatperson.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You know what I mean when you're doing it but I think
that what happens is you windup losing the religious side of
it Right, but that's what we'retalking about.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You don't have to have one to have the other.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, but just like I said, I think they actually
complement each other.
If a religion had bothspirituality and the religion
together, it's a whole lotbetter experience for everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, now, okay.
Now, here's the funny thingwhen we're talking about that.
I think, based on what we'vejust discussed, right.
You can have spiritualitywithout religion, but you can't
have religion withoutspirituality.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You sure about that?
I think so, I don't know.
I've gone to a lot of churchesand a lot of religions and some
of them seem quite mundane.
It's like all the spiritualityhas been sucked out.
We're going to just do thisover and over again.
It's the same formula, right,and it's empty, and it's empty.
To me that's not religion, no,it's not.
(04:38):
But yet I see religions do itall the time to some extent.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, but, and again my opinion, unpopular opinion,
whatever you want to call it, Idon't think that's religion.
You can't.
In my opinion, you can't callthat religion People do, though
that's a cult.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
That's not a religion , that's a cult.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
But again, people do this, people fall into this,
people go in there Well, surethey do.
And again, the spirituality'sbeen done and it's been ripped
out.
You have to do your.
Everything's very structured.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
But again, that's not religion.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
That's a poor, very, very poor substitute.
Like I said, that's a cult.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, I mean, you might as well just look at it.
Well, think about it this way,think of Scientology.
Yeah, I mean, this is whatwe're talking about.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
As an example of what I'm talking about a religion
that has no spirituality to it.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, from what I know ofScientology, no, there's no
spirituality there.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
No, it's all biofeedbacks and all this other
stuff.
So again they exist, so you canhave a religion without
spirituality.
I'm not saying it's good, Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
And, yeah, we'll beg to differ on that because, again
, I cannot call that a religion.
Well, again let's talk about.
You know, when we talk aboutspirituality, going haywire too,
oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, I mean this winds up with the pagan standard
time and you're not havingritual until midnight for some
dumb reason.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Well, and it also.
It also goes into if you're toospiritual, then you're not
grounded, you're not, you're notin this world and your head's
always in the clouds, right,you're just kind of your space
cadet academy number one, youknow.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
But then, in that it seems like religions without
spirituality, they're missingsomething.
Yes, All right.
Now again, don't get me wrong.
I'm with you.
I think spirituality should bepart of religions, but I think
humanity keeps on doing the samething.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
We like to organize ourselves, sometimes a little
too much.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
A little too much, and that's where I see the
felon-ness in certain religions,even though they're trying to
keep the spirituality, butbecause they have committees,
the bout committees.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well and see, okay, that's one thing I like about
our group.
Right, everybody bringssomething different to the group
.
I bring a more emotional aspectto things.
Right, you bring a moretechnical, authoritarian type
and I'm saying type of energy.
It's not, you're more like thefather figure.
(07:26):
Ok, right, lady Alba she's.
She's more like a mother figure.
Right, she's also more like afather figure.
She's a very strong woman.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You know, other members of our group bring
something different to the groupand I think, using that, we we
help with that dynamic whichkind of helps keep that quote
unquote chaos aspect you weretalking about right in place,
where it's not always the samething over and over and over
(07:57):
again.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Right, but there's a little variety, little right
different way of looking atthings, to make it more.
I mean, how many times can youlisten to the story of Noah's
Ark and not go?
Okay, can we make this a littlebit Right?
So I think this happens lessand more pagan in covens versus
(08:21):
in churches and other religions.
So we specifically sit here andtell people okay, our women or
our high priestesses handle ourspiritual nature when our guys
handle our mundane or thereligious aspect of religion.
Separating up the two jobs so weget the full force of both.
All right.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
To some extent.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
And I'm sorry with churches and stuff like that,
where you only have one pastor.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Well, I mean, like growing up, we had our main
minister, our main pastor, wehad an associate minister and
then we had deacons.
At any time the pastor couldpass off to the associate pastor
and say hey, you want to do thesermon this week.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I understand that, but I mean they're not assigned
a specific.
At no point does anybody, doesthe pastor ever look at a deacon
and go okay, yourresponsibility is the
spirituality of our church andnothing else.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Where I'm sitting here saying for us pagans or for
yeah, we have that diversity.
We sit down, we tell the highpriestesses this is your
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
This is your responsibility.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
This is the guy's responsibility, right, it is
your job to bring in thatspiritual aspect into our
religion, right, that emotionalconnection that we don't have
anywhere else.
Right, by separating up themtwo jobs, we get more of a full
force of the punch.
Are you with me, right, jobs?
We get more of a full force ofthe punch.
Are you with me, right?
I'm sorry.
I've seen Lady Abba do manyrituals, oh yeah, and trust me
(09:55):
she can.
I can't explain it, but I'veseen her do the same rituals
over and over again, and eachtime.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Something different, something different Something
emotional.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I'm sorry, it's what they're good at.
I'm not knocking or's whatthey're good at oh yeah.
I'm not knocking or anything,don't get me wrong.
Lady Oppa can run the businessside quite easily.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Oh, yeah, yeah, if she had to.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
You know.
But I'm not sitting theresaying that I haven't tripped
over to the spiritual sideeither as a priest.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, no, I mean, we've all had to at some point,
so but yeah, we do have thatdesignation, that other
organizations, other religionsdon't have that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
we specifically have a person that represents just
the spiritual nature of ourreligion.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
But now question All right, since paganism is not as
big as some of the majorreligions, right?
Is that what's holding us back,see, I don't know.
Or is that what sets us apart,and maybe that's the reason why
we are so small Comparatively?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
speaking, I think there's other reasons for that
besides this, okay, of why inthe world paganism is still so
kind of small okay I thinkthere's other things there.
I'd to be quite honest with you.
I I think it's more us yeah ingeneral, it's the pagan
community in general versus youknow in other words, we're
(11:26):
forcing it to stay.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I did in the smaller numbers I think.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I think a lot of people don't always.
Unfortunately, you have a lotof people that will sit there
and you could talk.
You've done it before.
We've gone to a gather.
You talk to five differentpeople.
You get and you can hear themall say five different things
and you're so confused by theend of it.
You're right, what was thepoint of even showing up?
Right, you know, you go to oneclass, they tell you one thing.
(11:51):
You go to another class, theytell you something else so you
think.
You think it's not necessarilythe fact that we've divided up
the responsibilities, but it'sthat we I think we don't have
any continuity in thequote-unquote community I think,
think like certain religionsdone that in paganism we've
dropped the ball on thereligious side of this.
(12:14):
Everybody just wants to do justthe spiritual, Okay, and that's
what I think drives most peopleaway, because there are no
consistencies, there's noguardrails, there's no, nothing
like this.
And you sit there and youlisten to the podcast over and
over again.
(12:34):
Everybody seems to be flying bythe seam of their pants.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, I mean most of the ones that we see on YouTube
or you know the big famous ones.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well, not even them, just some of the.
You know the everyday, regularbig famous ones.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Well, not even them, just some of the.
You know the everyday regularpeople who are putting stuff out
there.
Smaller, you know some of thesmaller podcasts, not
necessarily the bigger ones, butyou know a lot of them.
You're right, they're all doingthe same thing.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's kind of like fly by night, fly by night and keep
going.
And you know night, fly bynight and keep going.
And you know our beliefs willchange as soon as somebody comes
in with a better idea.
Right, you know?
Because we're always sittinghere looking at the door,
looking for something better tocome in okay all right.
And again, I'm sorry, that's nothow you, that's not how you run
(13:22):
a religion no, it's not thereare a lot of things in this
world that are good for us, butwhen you take them to extremes,
they're not.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Extremes have their place, but only in small doses.
Right and again my opinion Ithink we need those extremes.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And I'm not saying we didn't need them, it's just
living there is not a good thingfor us.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
No, it's not For any of us.
No.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
All right.
Absolutely not.
And I'm sorry, this is all Isay on these other pagan in the
pagan community at large iseverybody is always the extreme,
it's always something.
And again, how are you going tofollow a religion?
But yet one lady sits there andtells you over and over again
oh, I can't meditate and all mykarma seems to go on my daughter
(14:13):
and not me.
Really, hey everybody else inthe world.
karma works this way, but yetyou Well that's neither here nor
there, because you and I Ithink this is part of our
problem is everybody in thepagan community wants to be so
special that they're drivingpeople away.
(14:33):
Yeah, all right, it's that guythat you know, and every time
you talk to him, oh yeah, Ijumped out of planes, I've done
this, I've done everything thatyou've done.
They've done better.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I actually work with a guy who's like that, but you
know what I'm talking about.
I'm sorry, this is what I seemainly in the pagan community.
You can tell me I'm wrong.
Well, and and sad part is is,you know, even for those people,
there's really no way tovalidate what they're saying.
We just we have to take them attheir word and keep going you
(15:05):
know, but it does.
It kind of gets irritatingafter a while and you're like,
can we not just have aconversation?
I mean why do we always have toone-up each other, right?
I mean, you know?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
why?
Why does everybody have to bejoan of arc from a previous life
, right?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I don't get it there was only one Joan of Arc.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But I think these are the things that are repelling
people away from us.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It could be.
Yeah, it very well could be,all right.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I mean, at the end of the day, Christianity really
hasn't changed that much.
Everybody knows the rulesPretty much.
Yeah, All right, but inpaganism, every time you turn
around they're changingsomething for some reason
whatsoever.
Well, yeah, but in paganism,every time you turn around
they're changing something forsome reason whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Well, yeah, well, and I think, that.
That's part of what makes itappealing to some people is that
it is so flexible, but I kindof think you don't need to be so
flexible when it comes toreligion, slash spirituality.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I'm like you.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
You need those guardrails.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You need a balance between the two.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Right, you need a track that you can follow if you
will like a train.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I would even go as far as just a Vegas path in the
woods.
Okay, I mean, if we could atleast get that far.
But right now it's not even apath in the freaking woods.
It's just a Vegas path in thefreaking woods.
It's just a vague-ish path inthe woods.
It's just everybody going offin 50,000 directions all at one
time.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Right, it's kind of like coming across an area that
looks like it's been trodden.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
But you can't really tell.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But you can't really tell.
You know, we've all seen thosedirt roads that have been grown
up.
Nobody's been down and you canbarely see them anyway I'd like
the paganism.
I like paganism to at leasthave one of those okay, more
than what we have now good luckwith that herding cats.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I know I mean it would be nice, though it would
be nice I don't think I be nice,I don't think I'm like you.
Well, maybe I'm not like youBecause I think it needs to be a
little more structured thanthat.
Right, I really do.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I mean I think there needs to be more structure there
and natural.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And, let's face it, most of the people who come to
us, they're looking forstructure.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
They've seen what's out there and they're like this
is it's too much chaos, it'sjust, I need something that I
can I forge a path into right.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I need somewhere where I have at least some
stepping stones to get where Iwant to go right so how can we?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
okay?
So then, how can we?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
but yeah, what do you hear in the pagan community
when you hear people pop up likethat oh God forbid.
No, no, no, how dare you, howdare you.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, that's what I was going to say.
How can we translate that intosomething more for the general
public, more for the solitaries,more for the folks who you know
, who don't want to be part of acoven?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right who don't want to be part of a coven Right.
I mean, I'm sorry, but theyhave to make their own decisions
.
Then I'm sorry, right?
So?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
there's really no way to make any structure for.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
For them.
No, I mean if they're refusing.
I'm sorry.
If you refuse to take up thereligious side of this, that's
your problem, not mine.
I can't make you.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
No, but I mean, I know some solitaries and they
balance it quite well forthemselves.
Yeah, but when it comes toother people, it's almost like
they can't translate that intosomething that they can pass on
You've got to remember noteveryone is self-motivated, Not
everyone can self-guide orself-teach.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I mean, there are people in the world that require
a classroom.
That's very true.
Yeah, all right.
I mean, they can't doself-study, so, yeah, those
people need the organization.
Now, for those solitaires andstuff, the only thing I start to
have to ask them is are yousure you're getting everything
you need?
You think you are, you'reacting like you are, and all
(19:14):
this, but is it really Well, isthere?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
another level there that you could reach if you
actually took on a teacher andlearned some things I was going
to say, and that's not to saythat you're going to get
everything you need from ateacher or from a classroom or
from, you know, being in a classwith other students.
You're still going to have todo some stuff on your own.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
But I think you've got those building blocks, that
kind of help.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Well, I think it helps when you have a priest
that you're seeing, like eitherevery full moon or something
that's looking at you.
Oh, how's your meditationsgoing?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Oh well, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, and even then, it's not a pushy thing, it's not
like have you done yourmeditations lately?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
No, it's more like this How's it going, how's it
going?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
How's your meditations going?
Well, you know, and we've hadsome people come up.
Well, I've hit this hurdle.
Okay, what can I do to help youget past the hurdle Right?
Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
But, but yet I've seen a lot of people that have
gotten to the point in thepaganism where, even if you talk
to them about teachers, they'reready to set their hair on fire
.
Oh, absolutely yeah, all right,that don't help.
And just because you can't dosomething and you go to a
teacher to try to help youfigure it out doesn't mean it's
(20:35):
a bad thing on you.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So basically what it boils down to is we can can't
structure us.
If that's even a word that'snot I just made it up.
Hey, we can't.
We can't put things into astructure for something that
(20:58):
doesn't exist and for certainpeople that just doesn't exist.
So we can't do that.
Basically, what we can do is wecan just talk to them and kind
of help them along if they wantit.
Now, if they don't, we'll justsit and we'll talk about
(21:19):
whatever bullshit I don't hear.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Again, it's a difficult conversation because
everybody wants a spirituality.
I understand the drive for it,don't get me wrong, and there's
nothing wrong with that.
It's just at some point you'vegot to put a little organization
in there.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Well, see, okay, as far as that goes, and I guess
for me it's been a littleorganization in there.
Well see, okay, as far as thatgoes, and I guess for me it's
been a little different becausespirituality came easy to me.
I always had a connection tospirit, Right, Whatever you want
to call it.
I always had a connection to itand it's always been phenomenal
for me.
(21:58):
What helped me balance that inmy daily life was religion.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
It gave me a structure, by sitting there
telling you hey, you can't justsit here all day in this
spiritual bliss.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Right, but it gave me stuff that I could do to
express my, like I said earlier,to express my connectivity to
spirit.
I find comfort in that.
Me personally, I find comfortin it.
I find it very beautiful, Ifind it um relaxing in some ways
, where I don't have to.
(22:35):
It's like I don't have to do awhole lot of anything really.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
But I've got something that I can physically
do to express how I feel, right,and I think that's a beautiful
thing.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
All right.
So, roughly saying, we've cometo the conclusion you can have
spirituality without religionand you can have religion
without spirituality.
But we still think our best betis to have both yeah, if at
have both yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
If at all possible.
Yeah, I think the balance.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
There is a whole lot more important.
I think both aspects areimportant for humanity and our
religious and spiritual growth.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And it's going to be like a seesaw.
It's not going to be 50-50 allthe time.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
No, no, we understand .
You can move that pivot pointaround anywhere you want to
along that line, that's that.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's where, as you, as you put it, the chaos comes
in right.
That's keeping thingsinteresting things you know a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It's going to teeter one way or the other other, and
sometimes it's going to takeover, sometimes it's not,
sometimes everything does justseem very mechanical, but then
the next time you go around, thetables turn slightly and you're
just completely in spirituality, absolutely.
I mean, I've been in a lot ofrituals where that just suddenly
(23:54):
seemed to have happened.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
My last ritual.
Actually, I don't feel like Iwas completely there, so you
know it was.
Uh, it was quite interesting,it was, wasn't it um.
So you, know, it.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, it happens, it does yeah, all right, anything
else coffee coffee.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Let's go get coffee, thanks.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempelseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter.
Maze of stone and mire.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing
pyres.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, and so it is the end of
our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, and so it is the end of
our days.
(25:03):
So walk with me till morning.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.