February 5, 2025 • 24 mins
Is gender a learned performance, or is it woven into the fabric of our instincts? We tackle this intriguing question by dissecting gender as both a societal construct and an instinctual trait. Examine with us the evolving landscape of gender roles, where traditional norms are challenged by modern perceptions and the growing acceptance of gender as a spectrum. We'll explore how societal norms intersect with personal instincts, probing into behaviors like women wearing makeup and men showing protective tendencies, and discuss how these lines are blurred in today's world. This exploration is not just theoretical; it's about understanding how individuals can distinguish between ingrained behaviors and those shaped by society. Grab a cup of your favorite blend and let us know your thoughts via email (lifetemple@lifetempleseminary.org) or on Discord.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Okay, Lord Knight.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Alright.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm gonna ruffle the feathers of many people, yeah.
So I am posing a question andI'm gonna say something really
important.
I am not wanting this topic notthat I think we would, anyway,
but just to be clear foreveryone to be a discussion
(00:52):
about transgendered individuals,transgender rights, equality,
none of that, Right, okay, notwhat?
Not what this is about.
I am posing a simple questionthat's not so simple is gender
really a construct?
and if I was to tell you myopinion on this was yes and no,
(01:17):
and that's what I want toexplore, because there we are in
an in a fascinating time.
Right, because, on one hand,gender is viewed as a construct,
it's viewed as a spectrum.
Right, on the other hand, andyes of, but we're also in a time
where men, again as a gender,are the target of so much hate
(01:56):
right and men are being thrownunder the bus at every corner
for this believed idea of a of arepressive patriarchy right and
then somehow coexisting at thesame time?
is this idea that the internetis now obsessed with called
(02:19):
wives or traditional wives?
Yeah, but in the modern contextthis is a female who wants to
stay at home, who wants to cookand clean and maintain a
household, but may or may notwant children in the equation
(02:40):
well, I think the problem itcomes up up is that there's
confusion on this, because thereare certain behaviors that are
constructs that certain gendersdo that other genders don't
which you could easily flip.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Ie women wearing makeup All right Now, while it's
not traditional for men to dothis, but it's not like we
haven't.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Correct.
It's not traditional for men todo this, but it's not like we
haven't Correct.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
It's not traditional in modern society.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, it's becoming again to some extent.
But yeah, exactly, it's neverbeen unheard of, I mean.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
But no, I think what happens is, once you sit there
and you go okay, this is womanbehavior, which you know growing
up.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
that's what women did , well, that's the thing, it's
the what is taught and what isnatural.
Right, that's what'sfascinating, we have to agree,
right?
So much of what we know andunderstand is taught.
Right, it's learned, right.
Do little girls wear frillydresses because they really want
(03:45):
to, or is it because it'swhat's expected of them, or what
they're taught to wear?
I don't know.
This is where it's fascinating,and I mean if, given a choice,
though, children will gravitateto whatever appeals to them.
Yeah, and that's fine.
But where I get lost in theshuffle is when people start
(04:11):
saying things like there are.
There are hundreds, if notthousands, of genders.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
There are no, there are hundreds and thousands of
personalities correct.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So I don't understand how gender, because you know
even the idea of non-binaryright as we know it now, it's
either masculine, feminine orkind of a mix of both right.
So I only really see it as ahandful of choices.
(04:44):
I don't see it as like thisinfinite number.
That's what gets me Well.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think the problem is most people need to look at
it from their from a differentpoint of view.
Okay, this person behaving.
I remember growing up and whenI was younger I used to work in
a mill.
Okay, All right, Back when.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I was 18, when I was younger.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I used to work in a mill.
Okay, all right, back when Iwas 18.
There were certain behaviorsback in this time.
This is all right, where we'realways associated with women.
Okay, like the way they smoked,the way they would hold their
cigarettes, and stuff like that.
Now, when I actually got outthere to the general populace, I
started seeing men do the samegestures and stuff.
(05:23):
That I was associated withwomen.
Okay, this is a construct, yeah, but a woman acting or being
more motherly versus a guythat's not.
Are you with me?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
So you're talking about instinct.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Gender.
To me, we need to base oninstinct, not what we learn.
It is our automatic behaviors,okay, the behaviors we would
have out in the wild.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Okay so, but when human beings are so out of touch
with that, how do we get backin touch with that?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Well, I mean, you actually got to start thinking
about this stuff.
What is it that you donaturally, you know?
Do you really like that colorbecause, well, everybody else
likes that color, or do you likethat color because you do?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
well, let's talk.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
But okay, you said instinct, right, so let's, let's
talk about instinct from thatstandpoint because the kind of
instinct I'm talking about is afamily's out in the woods
walking along.
A bear pops out.
The kids run behind the fatherRight, they scrape their knee,
they run straight to their mom.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And that's what I mean, like in a situation like
that, like I know in my ownhouse, right, right, if I hear a
calamity inside the house.
I am going to run toward itbecause my base instinct is who
is hurt?
What got broken?
Right, Okay.
Now.
(06:53):
Conversely, if the calamity isoutside of the house, my
instinct is lock the door Right,Do not run toward that.
And what's going to be myinstinct as a guy.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yours is probably going to be to run toward it
it's going to be to pick up aweapon and start heading that
way right where, ironically, thecalamity in the house.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
You're probably going to go, it's fine, it's fine and
right and there.
That's such a basic thing Thing.
But I also see where you knowagain it's how do we study these
things in a time when it's soconfusing?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I'm not really sure.
All right, first of all, Ithink people need to have honest
conversations about what theyactually think is an actual
gender behavior versus abehavior of an individual, just
behavior.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Right, and that brings up an interesting point.
So I wonder is it a doubleedged sword, meaning we have so
much time on our hands thatwe've made a big to-do about
gender for no reason, right?
Or is it that we have failed tojust study behavior as a whole
(08:19):
and put the focus there?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
put the focus there, because when I hear people talk
about this in very general termson this, it always seems to be
more about people's individualpersonalities and wanting to
call that a gender right insteadof that's who this person is
right, but like the same way.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Okay, I mean, I know this is this is going to be a
little all over the place, but Ithink it makes sense.
You can have animals domesticanimals, right?
Dogs, cats, whatever guineapigs that are the same sex, who
will display humping behaviorright to form dominance or to
(09:06):
establish their pecking orderRight, even though they appear
to be performing a sexual act.
It's not, there's no, yeah.
So that behavior when we studythat right, we understand why
they do it.
When we study that right, weunderstand why they do it.
But we're so far removed fromthat now in modern society as it
(09:29):
relates to man, right.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
I think there's only one true way to find this.
All right, you need to startlooking at feral kids.
What you think I'm kidding?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
No, I don't think you're kidding, but that's
almost impossible now.
That's hard.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
But again if we go back and we look at the older
cases where this actuallyhappened.
You can see which behavior.
Which, because I would assume,gendered behavior for males and
females in humans would beexpressed in these people more
than because they would be usingthose instincts more than we
would.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So if we go back and we look at them, we can sit
there and go no, no, no.
This is behavior that is onlyassociated with this gender.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
At the end of the day .
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I don't know if we'll ever go back there no, because
it sounds like it no, it soundslike a cruel social experiment
that we can't conduct anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Let's admit it, the feral kids that happened this.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It wasn't out of their own choice there were
extenuating circumstances, rightright but how is it that we are
both so progressive with genderand so repressed with it at the
same time?
Like I said, we've come so faras a society that people are,
you know, gay couples cancoexist without having to really
(10:54):
put a lot of thought into who'sassuming what gender role, who
cares?
Right, there's a task thatneeds to be achieved.
We're just gonna do it, youknow, like.
So we've come so far in thoseterms, but yet on the flip side
of that, like I said, we've gotthe general idea of male
(11:16):
population being completely justcrushed underfoot at every turn
, and then, yeah, women thatalmost want to turn back the
clock on everything that hasbeen achieved.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
So here's the problem you have with guys.
All right, yes, we would do thefight clubs, we would do all
this stuff.
We would do a lot of the stuffthat you see on tv.
Okay, all right, if we couldbut, but none of us actually can
but can't you?
I mean, look at jackass trueright, all right, you can I mean
(11:54):
but then on the hand, I've alsosat here and watched a video of
four female cops not take downa six foot 250 pound guy and get
away.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But yeah, but, but OK , but to another point.
Right, you hear about I heard acomedian talk about this
recently and I did find itfascinating that you know toxic
masculinity by the definitionthat most people are using all
masculinity is toxic Right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
That's the point.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
What is what is toxic versus what's just masculine?
I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, Again, when we, when you start thinking about
kids in schools.
Schools are set up.
Girls tend to do better inschool than guys.
Believe it, or?
Not Sometimes, yeah, eventhough girls in junior high
start getting lower grades thanguys.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Well, it's the mature faster.
Yeah, all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
But girls are more equipped for that type of
setting.
For intellect yes, For thattype of setting where guys would
rather be out on the field.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, it's a fight.
It is a struggle for most men,I believe, to do that.
And it's ironic because even inan era where we have kids who
have grown up, who are now adultmales right, who hold office
jobs and work with computers anddo all this stuff right, who
(13:19):
hold office jobs and work withcomputers and do all this stuff,
what is their outlet?
Video games, fight games right,any group setting where they're
playing a video game as a groupand hunting and killing and
surviving.
It's an outlet for it.
It's an outlet, yeah, and theyreally do anticipate or look
forward to that interactionbecause, truthfully, they don't
(13:42):
want to be stuck behind a deskall goddamn day if given, yeah,
an alternative that you knowmade the money without actually
breaking their back right yeahso again, is that male behavior?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
is that yeah, and again, you're right, it does it.
At the end of the day, all manis toxic, according to some
people but where are we going?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
like, what does this mean?
Is it mean that there will beless of an emphasis on gender
and maybe more of an emphasis onsex, or will it not matter?
I just yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I'm not sure where it's going.
I'm not completely opposed tothe questions that people are
asking about these Right.
All right, Because again, someof these are good questions.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
All right, Like what truly is yeah.
Versus others.
All right, like what it trulyis.
Yeah, versus others because itit makes me wonder.
Okay, when we look at our rolesand we look at craft and we
look at the gendered roles ofpriest versus priestess, I would
like to think that most groupsare progressive enough to say
(14:59):
that if an individual displaysmore talent or more skill that
leans towards an opposite genderrole, we would simply let them
fulfill that role.
Right, because why am I goingto try to force you into a hole?
That doesn't make sense?
Right, you're not going to dogood at it.
And then how does that benefitall of us?
(15:19):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
right, because, again , we're not progressing on craft
at all at that point, exactly,exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
so you know, I would like to believe that, but then
it seems like there's just anawful lot of debate about what
that means for the future and Idon't, you know, I kind of go
doesn't mean anything.
It means we take people on anindividual basis.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
I think the real problem on all of this is not
the conversation.
It's that some people are toobusy going.
I'm right, I don't need tolisten to anyone else.
Y'all should follow me instead.
Interesting, I think there'sthe problem.
Everybody wants to be right.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
That's a good point.
That's a good point thatthere's just not enough thought
being given to the topic.
It's just everybody's trying totreat it as very black and
white.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yes, Hmm, and again, I mean again when me and you
have conversations, even stuffwe don't agree with, we're still
civil to each other.
We're still trying to listen tothe other person.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, and it's interesting because I think when
someone now even still hastraits that are more akin to an
opposite gender, it still isscrutinized, it still is kind of
put under a microscope.
Well, I mean.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I grew up in an era where, if God forbid, you guys
had long hairs, everybody wouldcall you a girl, until you
either got a cut or they movedon to the next victim.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I mean because we came up in this era where guys
were starting to wear earringslonger hair we were getting
there was a lot of thisabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I mean, I still, I mean just the androgyny of the
80s.
Yes, right, if you were, if youwere even a little bit queer
growing up in the 80s.
It was so confusing it was itwas so confusing.
I mean, I remember being a kid,but it was easy.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
It was easier for gay people because it was easier to
hide.
Oh for sure, for sure, it'sstill be flamboyant well, it was
an opening.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It was an opening to this new idea, or, you know, not
new idea, but this new way ofbeing out in the world, being
open with these things.
But you know, I remember God,Boy George and Annie Lennox and
Grace Jones.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I was so confused grace jones.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I was so confused and then and I mean that was the
early to mid part of the 80s andthen the hair bands came out
and and everybody's just going.
That's a pretty pretty man.
I don't understand what'shappening?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
why?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
are they all wearing spandex?
Yeah, and makeup and yeah, Imean and the long hair, and it
was it, but it would.
That's one of the things thatmade it so fascinating, but we
all accepted it but we werebreaking what we, what we refer
to, back then the traditionalgender roles but those general,
those were constructs, they wereconstructs we created but see,
(18:39):
that's what's funny.
I remember the term genderbending, yeah right being very
popular and very common and thatwas a very acceptable way of
looking at something.
Is that you know, you were kindof you know, gender bent and I
think I identified that way fora long time, but now it's so
(19:01):
much more.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I don't know consuming, but when you were
doing the gender bending things,a guy could wear a tutu.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Oh, absolutely but he would still just be a guy
absolutely I mean, and butthat's my point.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
But now now they've gotten all this to the point.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
As soon as you do one behavior, suddenly you're it's
like everything's under amicroscope, right, and then, on
another hand, nothing's under amicroscope, so I don't know it's
it's all yeah craft again we.
(19:39):
It's like we have foreseeablefuture.
This is going to be a big partof modern life now is gender
obsession I hope not I really doit just so, which also makes me
go.
at what point does a coven sayenough, we're not doing this
(20:05):
anymore.
Right, we're not playing thatgame.
But then how does that affectthe very core of so much of the
beliefs, when so many peoplestill see a god and goddess as
gendered individuals?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
But yet you're being told by other groups, groups.
No, you have to worship anon-gender yeah I know it's, and
again we're not the type of, weare not the type of tradition
or anything to go out.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
You don't have to believe our way, we're not going
to but, more importantly, weare also a tradition that goes,
aspect we're, we're the ones whogo that it is one being, right,
right the way we view creationor the creator, it's one being,
it is both, it is everything, itis nothing at the same time, at
(20:55):
the same time.
So that's what I mean.
At what point do we toss outthe other stuff in favor?
At what point do the gods thatwe use inside of Circle, the
ones that we call upon?
At what point do they become amore gender blurred entity?
(21:17):
Do you see that happening?
Do you see a time where craftabandons?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
a male female.
I sort of see people alreadymoving toward that.
I I hear more and more peopletalk about the concept of the
source.
Okay, that is all the deitieswrapped up together right more
now than before, but I also seethese same people that talk
about it also sit there and go.
But we understand the importanceof drilling down to this
(21:45):
frequency or this specific deityfor what we need interesting
and I think, as we we're doingthat more and more, we're going
to have to start questioningourselves what is actual
instinct behavior for us versuswhat we create out of society?
Right?
Right that's where we need tostart making that divided line
(22:09):
all right.
So I mean, I'm not sure how weget there.
I'm not that kind of researcheryeah it's.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It's a fascinating discussion, but it is a
discussion that needs to be hadmore regularly, especially
because we have to be preparedfor it.
Groups have to know where theystand, and I think that it's not
enough to be wishy-washy orjust unclear.
(22:39):
Yeah, yeah, so it's aninteresting discussion and I
think I'm curious to see youknow how gender studies and that
gender evolution discussioncontinues with the pagan
community we'll see.
We should ponder it over.
(23:02):
More coffee Yay.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media.
Facebook Discord.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Twitter, YouTube and Reddit fires, and so it is the
end of our day, so walk with metill morning breaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morning.
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Okay, Lord Knight.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Alright.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm gonna ruffle the feathers of many people, yeah.
So I am posing a question andI'm gonna say something really
important.
I am not wanting this topic notthat I think we would, anyway,
but just to be clear foreveryone to be a discussion
(00:52):
about transgendered individuals,transgender rights, equality,
none of that, Right, okay, notwhat?
Not what this is about.
I am posing a simple questionthat's not so simple is gender
really a construct?
and if I was to tell you myopinion on this was yes and no,
(01:17):
and that's what I want toexplore, because there we are in
an in a fascinating time.
Right, because, on one hand,gender is viewed as a construct,
it's viewed as a spectrum.
Right, on the other hand, andyes of, but we're also in a time
where men, again as a gender,are the target of so much hate
(01:56):
right and men are being thrownunder the bus at every corner
for this believed idea of a of arepressive patriarchy right and
then somehow coexisting at thesame time?
is this idea that the internetis now obsessed with called
(02:19):
wives or traditional wives?
Yeah, but in the modern contextthis is a female who wants to
stay at home, who wants to cookand clean and maintain a
household, but may or may notwant children in the equation
(02:40):
well, I think the problem itcomes up up is that there's
confusion on this, because thereare certain behaviors that are
constructs that certain gendersdo that other genders don't
which you could easily flip.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Ie women wearing makeup All right Now, while it's
not traditional for men to dothis, but it's not like we
haven't.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Correct.
It's not traditional for men todo this, but it's not like we
haven't Correct.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
It's not traditional in modern society.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, it's becoming again to some extent.
But yeah, exactly, it's neverbeen unheard of, I mean.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
But no, I think what happens is, once you sit there
and you go okay, this is womanbehavior, which you know growing
up.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
that's what women did , well, that's the thing, it's
the what is taught and what isnatural.
Right, that's what'sfascinating, we have to agree,
right?
So much of what we know andunderstand is taught.
Right, it's learned, right.
Do little girls wear frillydresses because they really want
(03:45):
to, or is it because it'swhat's expected of them, or what
they're taught to wear?
I don't know.
This is where it's fascinating,and I mean if, given a choice,
though, children will gravitateto whatever appeals to them.
Yeah, and that's fine.
But where I get lost in theshuffle is when people start
(04:11):
saying things like there are.
There are hundreds, if notthousands, of genders.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
There are no, there are hundreds and thousands of
personalities correct.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So I don't understand how gender, because you know
even the idea of non-binaryright as we know it now, it's
either masculine, feminine orkind of a mix of both right.
So I only really see it as ahandful of choices.
(04:44):
I don't see it as like thisinfinite number.
That's what gets me Well.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think the problem is most people need to look at
it from their from a differentpoint of view.
Okay, this person behaving.
I remember growing up and whenI was younger I used to work in
a mill.
Okay, All right, Back when.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I was 18, when I was younger.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I used to work in a mill.
Okay, all right, back when Iwas 18.
There were certain behaviorsback in this time.
This is all right, where we'realways associated with women.
Okay, like the way they smoked,the way they would hold their
cigarettes, and stuff like that.
Now, when I actually got outthere to the general populace, I
started seeing men do the samegestures and stuff.
(05:23):
That I was associated withwomen.
Okay, this is a construct, yeah, but a woman acting or being
more motherly versus a guythat's not.
Are you with me?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
So you're talking about instinct.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Gender.
To me, we need to base oninstinct, not what we learn.
It is our automatic behaviors,okay, the behaviors we would
have out in the wild.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Okay so, but when human beings are so out of touch
with that, how do we get backin touch with that?
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Well, I mean, you actually got to start thinking
about this stuff.
What is it that you donaturally, you know?
Do you really like that colorbecause, well, everybody else
likes that color, or do you likethat color because you do?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
well, let's talk.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
But okay, you said instinct, right, so let's, let's
talk about instinct from thatstandpoint because the kind of
instinct I'm talking about is afamily's out in the woods
walking along.
A bear pops out.
The kids run behind the fatherRight, they scrape their knee,
they run straight to their mom.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And that's what I mean, like in a situation like
that, like I know in my ownhouse, right, right, if I hear a
calamity inside the house.
I am going to run toward itbecause my base instinct is who
is hurt?
What got broken?
Right, Okay.
Now.
(06:53):
Conversely, if the calamity isoutside of the house, my
instinct is lock the door Right,Do not run toward that.
And what's going to be myinstinct as a guy.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yours is probably going to be to run toward it
it's going to be to pick up aweapon and start heading that
way right where, ironically, thecalamity in the house.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
You're probably going to go, it's fine, it's fine and
right and there.
That's such a basic thing Thing.
But I also see where you knowagain it's how do we study these
things in a time when it's soconfusing?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I'm not really sure.
All right, first of all, Ithink people need to have honest
conversations about what theyactually think is an actual
gender behavior versus abehavior of an individual, just
behavior.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Right, and that brings up an interesting point.
So I wonder is it a doubleedged sword, meaning we have so
much time on our hands thatwe've made a big to-do about
gender for no reason, right?
Or is it that we have failed tojust study behavior as a whole
(08:19):
and put the focus there?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
put the focus there, because when I hear people talk
about this in very general termson this, it always seems to be
more about people's individualpersonalities and wanting to
call that a gender right insteadof that's who this person is
right, but like the same way.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Okay, I mean, I know this is this is going to be a
little all over the place, but Ithink it makes sense.
You can have animals domesticanimals, right?
Dogs, cats, whatever guineapigs that are the same sex, who
will display humping behaviorright to form dominance or to
(09:06):
establish their pecking orderRight, even though they appear
to be performing a sexual act.
It's not, there's no, yeah.
So that behavior when we studythat right, we understand why
they do it.
When we study that right, weunderstand why they do it.
But we're so far removed fromthat now in modern society as it
(09:29):
relates to man, right.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
I think there's only one true way to find this.
All right, you need to startlooking at feral kids.
What you think I'm kidding?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
No, I don't think you're kidding, but that's
almost impossible now.
That's hard.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
But again if we go back and we look at the older
cases where this actuallyhappened.
You can see which behavior.
Which, because I would assume,gendered behavior for males and
females in humans would beexpressed in these people more
than because they would be usingthose instincts more than we
would.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So if we go back and we look at them, we can sit
there and go no, no, no.
This is behavior that is onlyassociated with this gender.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
At the end of the day .
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I don't know if we'll ever go back there no, because
it sounds like it no, it soundslike a cruel social experiment
that we can't conduct anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Let's admit it, the feral kids that happened this.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It wasn't out of their own choice there were
extenuating circumstances, rightright but how is it that we are
both so progressive with genderand so repressed with it at the
same time?
Like I said, we've come so faras a society that people are,
you know, gay couples cancoexist without having to really
(10:54):
put a lot of thought into who'sassuming what gender role, who
cares?
Right, there's a task thatneeds to be achieved.
We're just gonna do it, youknow, like.
So we've come so far in thoseterms, but yet on the flip side
of that, like I said, we've gotthe general idea of male
(11:16):
population being completely justcrushed underfoot at every turn
, and then, yeah, women thatalmost want to turn back the
clock on everything that hasbeen achieved.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
So here's the problem you have with guys.
All right, yes, we would do thefight clubs, we would do all
this stuff.
We would do a lot of the stuffthat you see on tv.
Okay, all right, if we couldbut, but none of us actually can
but can't you?
I mean, look at jackass trueright, all right, you can I mean
(11:54):
but then on the hand, I've alsosat here and watched a video of
four female cops not take downa six foot 250 pound guy and get
away.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But yeah, but, but OK , but to another point.
Right, you hear about I heard acomedian talk about this
recently and I did find itfascinating that you know toxic
masculinity by the definitionthat most people are using all
masculinity is toxic Right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
That's the point.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
What is what is toxic versus what's just masculine?
I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, Again, when we, when you start thinking about
kids in schools.
Schools are set up.
Girls tend to do better inschool than guys.
Believe it, or?
Not Sometimes, yeah, eventhough girls in junior high
start getting lower grades thanguys.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Well, it's the mature faster.
Yeah, all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
But girls are more equipped for that type of
setting.
For intellect yes, For thattype of setting where guys would
rather be out on the field.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, it's a fight.
It is a struggle for most men,I believe, to do that.
And it's ironic because even inan era where we have kids who
have grown up, who are now adultmales right, who hold office
jobs and work with computers anddo all this stuff right, who
(13:19):
hold office jobs and work withcomputers and do all this stuff,
what is their outlet?
Video games, fight games right,any group setting where they're
playing a video game as a groupand hunting and killing and
surviving.
It's an outlet for it.
It's an outlet, yeah, and theyreally do anticipate or look
forward to that interactionbecause, truthfully, they don't
(13:42):
want to be stuck behind a deskall goddamn day if given, yeah,
an alternative that you knowmade the money without actually
breaking their back right yeahso again, is that male behavior?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
is that yeah, and again, you're right, it does it.
At the end of the day, all manis toxic, according to some
people but where are we going?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
like, what does this mean?
Is it mean that there will beless of an emphasis on gender
and maybe more of an emphasis onsex, or will it not matter?
I just yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I'm not sure where it's going.
I'm not completely opposed tothe questions that people are
asking about these Right.
All right, Because again, someof these are good questions.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
All right, Like what truly is yeah.
Versus others.
All right, like what it trulyis.
Yeah, versus others because itit makes me wonder.
Okay, when we look at our rolesand we look at craft and we
look at the gendered roles ofpriest versus priestess, I would
like to think that most groupsare progressive enough to say
(14:59):
that if an individual displaysmore talent or more skill that
leans towards an opposite genderrole, we would simply let them
fulfill that role.
Right, because why am I goingto try to force you into a hole?
That doesn't make sense?
Right, you're not going to dogood at it.
And then how does that benefitall of us?
(15:19):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
right, because, again , we're not progressing on craft
at all at that point, exactly,exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
so you know, I would like to believe that, but then
it seems like there's just anawful lot of debate about what
that means for the future and Idon't, you know, I kind of go
doesn't mean anything.
It means we take people on anindividual basis.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
I think the real problem on all of this is not
the conversation.
It's that some people are toobusy going.
I'm right, I don't need tolisten to anyone else.
Y'all should follow me instead.
Interesting, I think there'sthe problem.
Everybody wants to be right.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
That's a good point.
That's a good point thatthere's just not enough thought
being given to the topic.
It's just everybody's trying totreat it as very black and
white.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yes, Hmm, and again, I mean again when me and you
have conversations, even stuffwe don't agree with, we're still
civil to each other.
We're still trying to listen tothe other person.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, and it's interesting because I think when
someone now even still hastraits that are more akin to an
opposite gender, it still isscrutinized, it still is kind of
put under a microscope.
Well, I mean.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I grew up in an era where, if God forbid, you guys
had long hairs, everybody wouldcall you a girl, until you
either got a cut or they movedon to the next victim.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I mean because we came up in this era where guys
were starting to wear earringslonger hair we were getting
there was a lot of thisabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I mean, I still, I mean just the androgyny of the
80s.
Yes, right, if you were, if youwere even a little bit queer
growing up in the 80s.
It was so confusing it was itwas so confusing.
I mean, I remember being a kid,but it was easy.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
It was easier for gay people because it was easier to
hide.
Oh for sure, for sure, it'sstill be flamboyant well, it was
an opening.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It was an opening to this new idea, or, you know, not
new idea, but this new way ofbeing out in the world, being
open with these things.
But you know, I remember God,Boy George and Annie Lennox and
Grace Jones.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I was so confused grace jones.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I was so confused and then and I mean that was the
early to mid part of the 80s andthen the hair bands came out
and and everybody's just going.
That's a pretty pretty man.
I don't understand what'shappening?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
why?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
are they all wearing spandex?
Yeah, and makeup and yeah, Imean and the long hair, and it
was it, but it would.
That's one of the things thatmade it so fascinating, but we
all accepted it but we werebreaking what we, what we refer
to, back then the traditionalgender roles but those general,
those were constructs, they wereconstructs we created but see,
(18:39):
that's what's funny.
I remember the term genderbending, yeah right being very
popular and very common and thatwas a very acceptable way of
looking at something.
Is that you know, you were kindof you know, gender bent and I
think I identified that way fora long time, but now it's so
(19:01):
much more.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I don't know consuming, but when you were
doing the gender bending things,a guy could wear a tutu.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Oh, absolutely but he would still just be a guy
absolutely I mean, and butthat's my point.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
But now now they've gotten all this to the point.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
As soon as you do one behavior, suddenly you're it's
like everything's under amicroscope, right, and then, on
another hand, nothing's under amicroscope, so I don't know it's
it's all yeah craft again we.
(19:39):
It's like we have foreseeablefuture.
This is going to be a big partof modern life now is gender
obsession I hope not I really doit just so, which also makes me
go.
at what point does a coven sayenough, we're not doing this
(20:05):
anymore.
Right, we're not playing thatgame.
But then how does that affectthe very core of so much of the
beliefs, when so many peoplestill see a god and goddess as
gendered individuals?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
But yet you're being told by other groups, groups.
No, you have to worship anon-gender yeah I know it's, and
again we're not the type of, weare not the type of tradition
or anything to go out.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
You don't have to believe our way, we're not going
to but, more importantly, weare also a tradition that goes,
aspect we're, we're the ones whogo that it is one being, right,
right the way we view creationor the creator, it's one being,
it is both, it is everything, itis nothing at the same time, at
(20:55):
the same time.
So that's what I mean.
At what point do we toss outthe other stuff in favor?
At what point do the gods thatwe use inside of Circle, the
ones that we call upon?
At what point do they become amore gender blurred entity?
(21:17):
Do you see that happening?
Do you see a time where craftabandons?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
a male female.
I sort of see people alreadymoving toward that.
I I hear more and more peopletalk about the concept of the
source.
Okay, that is all the deitieswrapped up together right more
now than before, but I also seethese same people that talk
about it also sit there and go.
But we understand the importanceof drilling down to this
(21:45):
frequency or this specific deityfor what we need interesting
and I think, as we we're doingthat more and more, we're going
to have to start questioningourselves what is actual
instinct behavior for us versuswhat we create out of society?
Right?
Right that's where we need tostart making that divided line
(22:09):
all right.
So I mean, I'm not sure how weget there.
I'm not that kind of researcheryeah it's.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It's a fascinating discussion, but it is a
discussion that needs to be hadmore regularly, especially
because we have to be preparedfor it.
Groups have to know where theystand, and I think that it's not
enough to be wishy-washy orjust unclear.
(22:39):
Yeah, yeah, so it's aninteresting discussion and I
think I'm curious to see youknow how gender studies and that
gender evolution discussioncontinues with the pagan
community we'll see.
We should ponder it over.
(23:02):
More coffee Yay.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media.
Facebook Discord.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Twitter, YouTube and Reddit fires, and so it is the
end of our day, so walk with metill morning breaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morning.
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