January 29, 2025 • 30 mins
Join Lady Alba and Lord Night for a riveting conversation about croning. They discuss whether or not the ritual is spiritual in nature, bringing to light what exactly a crone is. The conversation covers celebrating womanhood, as well as manhood, and the overuse of mundane ceremonies. Closing the episode, they talk about the clear-cut lines that Paganism gives us and brings up the question, are we just creating ceremonies to give us something to do.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
So sounds like we have had some interest in, or
some questions about, croningyes, recently.
Okay, where would you like tostart?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
How about?
What is a crone?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes, can we start with that?
What is one Sure?
I mean, if we want to gettechnical, yes Can we start with
that.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
What is one Sure?
I mean, if we want to gettechnical?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It's just an old lady .
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's just an old lady .
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
A crone is any woman who is past her ability to
naturally conceive a child.
Right, that's it, that's it,that's it.
So the funny thing is right, acrone could be 45 years of age
or 65 years of age, I mean, orolder.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Or even younger.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Or anything in between.
Yeah, yes and no, though,because I do think right, I mean
medical.
Let's put medical situationsaside, right?
You know, traditionally a croneis someone who is an elder
within their own household.
They are, they are.
(01:36):
They are definitely well withintheir rights to obtain their
senior citizen discounts yes, toobtain their senior citizen
discounts, yes, and they seem tohave this accumulated knowledge
and wisdom.
And that's what I was going tosay.
It's not so much just thephysical, it is how you conduct
(01:56):
yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yeah, a crone is wise in a way that is speaky little,
listen much yes, yeah, verymuch, and crones are in most
instances.
They're not quick to emotion,they're not quick to reaction,
they're not quick to anger,they're not quick to much of
(02:20):
anything.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, they very much sit back, take it all in and
offer their advice or theirthoughts or their opinions when
it's absolutely necessary nowthe closest I've ever seen on tv
to the, what we refer to as acrone, would be what granny from
(02:43):
the beverly hillbillies maybe.
Maybe not quite as flamboyantor over the top but yeah, this,
knowing how to do these healingsand certain there.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, there are not a lot of great examples, no of
crones on television, because ofcourse I mean hollywood loves
young and and beautiful, so Imean the crone character for
many storylines is not even allthat interesting.
She has often been vilified,she's been neglected, she's been
(03:23):
right, she's been turned intothe wicked witch sort of thing
when they were turned into thethree, what?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
the three witches with the one eye and from great
mythology, yep yep.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So I mean, I can't think of a pop culture reference
crone no not, not off, notsomething that really cements
all of what she should be right,okay so now the traditional
requirements, not saying agreeor disagree okay, so traditional
(03:54):
requirements was based on craftright based on craft was one
must have given birth and begone through menopause.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Okay, which this then starts a different argument on
this or conversation on this.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Oh yeah, so you know, we have to deal with the
biological fact.
Everybody then wants to knowwell, what if you haven't given
birth, but you've been pregnant?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
What if you were unable to give birth Right?
What if you wanted to givebirth but you couldn't get
pregnant?
What if you have children, butbut you couldn't?
Get pregnant, what you knowright.
What if you have children butyou never gave birth to them?
Yeah, yeah we could play thatgame all day long.
I think for modern craft itdoesn't really matter.
(04:38):
No, I think the reality is thatyou have to have been a mother
yes that is really the, the, themarker, and please, I don't
want to hear any in it because Iknow it's coming.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I don't want to hear the, but I have pet babies I was
about to ask you that whatabout the fur babies?
No, no, no, I don't want tohear it.
That's not quite.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Because, for every woman that takes the crone title
, whether they themselves havehad a child of their own,
believe me when I say thatbecoming a mother, be it by
choice, by circumstance, by anykind of strange adoptive process
(05:25):
, right, whatever it might be,trust me when I say that sort of
is the moment where you knowthat relationship is priming you
for cronedom.
Yeah, but aside from that, yeah, you're done with menopause.
You no longer bleed, you cannotconceive anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I mean, those are now let me ask you is this going to
sound really weird, bear withme for a second.
Sure is a crony a femalemystery.
Or is it craft?
Is it the?
Is it part of our religion, oris it just something that came
from the female mission?
I'm not saying this, yeah,because then my question is is
(06:11):
what spiritual or religioussignificance does having a
croning do?
It's not like a first degree,it's not like an initiation.
Right, right, right right.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
So well, we're back to a ceremony versus just life,
Right?
So in my opinion okay and thisis not to take anything away
from anyone else a croning issimply an acknowledgement that
is honorific, Right.
It really is just usuallyinside of a Covenstead, an
(06:46):
acknowledgement of an elderfemale who has contributed much
to the community over the years,who has left a mark but who
maybe has never gained aninitiation beyond a first degree
.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
That to me, is someone who is deserving of a
croning.
Okay, because to crone a secondor to crone a third, that's
ridiculous.
Yeah, I see there's no point inthat.
And I and this is where I doget frustrated, because we do
see a lot of covens that startdoing, you know, oh, the croning
of ladies, such and such, andthen we have the, the queening
(07:29):
of ladies.
Oh, stop it.
Why are we inflating egos morethan we need to?
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
all right, then here's my next question on this.
All right, there's no maleequivalent of this ritual there
is is.
There is, I've never seen it.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Oh, of the ritual.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Right, there's no hermiting.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
No Right, there's no get off my lawn yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
But we could make it that would be a great one.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah, it's the great.
Get off my lawn-ing ExactlyBecause, again, it's ego.
That's what I find so funnyabout this when men hermit right
, when men were sage, if youwant to be you know, make it
sound nicer.
When that process theyliterally it is what it is it's
isolation.
(08:18):
They go off into their like,leave me alone.
Right, cut your hair, pull upyour pants, eat, eat a sandwich.
Get off my lawn.
You know I don't.
They don't want the pomp andcircumstance Somewhere along the
line.
However, because of matriarchal, you know the reclamation.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Of the matriarchal belief systems, right?
Oh, we have to honor the crone.
Oh, we have to honor the crone.
We have to honor the crone.
Okay, go sit down with yourgrandma for 45 minutes.
Yes, honor the crone.
Go volunteer a few hours amonth at an old folks home or at
a memory care clinic or careclinic or anywhere that is
(09:10):
packed with elderly people.
Go on earth the crone, the.
The great irony of that processis that in most cases, you're
talking about a society that islargely forgotten and shut away
yes.
So if you want to honor them, gobe amongst them.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
That's it, Because unfortunately again I know I
sound like a broken record herebut the ego thing I see too many
places where it's like, oh youknow, so-and-so turned 50.
It's time for a croning.
If she is a spry, active50-year-old who still has
children, maybe in their early20s, she's going to yoga class
(09:48):
every day, she's still workingand has, that woman is not being
croned.
That is not the criteria.
You know that is.
And look, the longer we live,the more delayed this idea of
what a crone is.
Yeah, it delays, it defers.
(10:08):
So it used to be when we werekids, right celebrating
somebody's 50th.
I mean, that's not a milestonenow, but it made more sense.
You know, we remember that.
You know, oh, you used to havea retirement party when you
turned 60.
Yeah, now people are workingtill they're 75.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yes.
So come on.
I mean, I mean, over the yearswe all heard that saying what,
uh, oh, no, no, 50s the new or60s, new 50, or something like
that exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
So there, there to me , there are other again.
What makes someone a crone?
My personal belief in thislargely, and this goes for men
and women, right.
So the hermit as well.
It is when you have reached apoint in life where your body
has given up Right or is nolonger serving you, but your
(11:01):
mind still is.
Yes, that's one of the keycomponents.
Okay, so, yeah, I can't do thethings physically that I used to
.
I need help with certainaspects of day-to-day life, but
my mind is still there.
Yep, it's still active, it'sstill functional, it's still
(11:23):
able to be a productive memberof the society, whereas my body
is not, because that's, if we goback, anthropologically right,
that's what it would have beengrandma is not able to go out
into the field anymore, right,right, but that doesn't mean she
can't watch the six-year-oldsand tell stories.
(11:44):
Right?
Doesn't mean she can't watchthe six year olds and tell
stories.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Right Doesn't mean that they can't do.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
They're still productive.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
They are still active , productive members of society.
Yes, and that's the thing weforget and it's where our
elderly in many cases.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
It's sad it's sad well, I mean we, we sort of
treat elk.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
We do the whole eldering thing about the same
way.
It just sort of there's noritual, there's no not, at least
not in our tradition.
There's no ritual or anythingto for that status.
It just sort of happens, yeah,yeah agreed.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
A lot of why I think croning has become more
popularized now especially, isbecause we are in this era of
women again, the reclaiming.
It's very new.
Agey, right, I no longer bleed.
Let's celebrate, because it'sthe opposite end of what we did
(12:42):
when you first bled as ateenager, right?
Or you know young adults, soit's the same idea, right?
Oh, we celebrated that, so nowlet's celebrate this other side.
This is a very new phenomenon,right?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
okay, I mean because for us guys, can I don't?
We don't celebrate the firsttime.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
We can I be graphic here?
Yeah did you celebrate yourlast poop?
I mean, okay, what, I don't seewhat?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
well again guys do not celebrate the first time
they have a dream.
Yeah, all right, it's not likeoh, hey, yeah, no yeah, I got a
boner we made a, a mess, that'swhat.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I mean, it's very this is all very much the the
female reclamation right,religious space.
We just see it as normal.
It just is what it is.
It's just part of it's thecycle.
It happens to all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, and please don't wig out.
If you look at somebody going,hey, so what are the traditional
requirements to do that andthey tell you a bunch of stuff
that you don't agree with, thatdoesn't mean they follow it that
way.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, but again, I just think you're not going to
see a ton of traditionalistsdoing this.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
No.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Because then we also become participation trophy
witches, yep, right, okay.
So it starts with a wiccaning.
So then we have what something?
A paging right, right or amaidening for you know, puberty.
And then we get in, and thenyou've got the hand fastings for
(14:25):
marriage and then it's like, ohboy, come on.
I can understand the want tofeel connected to your faith and
I understand the want to kindof parallel maybe what you grew
up with, right, or to feel likethere's a connection there.
But again, for mosttraditionalists that is doing
(14:49):
the opposite of what your faithis supposed to do, that is,
making it the me, me, me, me, meshow Right.
Instead of putting the focus onthe faith, Instead, yeah,
you're putting your you'realmost going.
It's about me in relation to thefaith no, it's not.
You're putting you're, you'realmost going.
It's about me.
In relation to the faith no,it's not, it's not I mean cause.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
At the end of the day , the faith will still be there,
without you.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Right, I mean, and the cycles will continue Without
us Without you.
Yeah, they just keep on going.
So it's it's always veryinteresting to see that like you
know again, you know socialmedia tiktok, rust and paste.
(15:31):
Sorry, had to, had to do it.
Had to do it.
Who knows, by the time thisairs, it might be back.
I don't know.
But you know, we see all thesecool things now on, like
instagram and you know these,these, like the photographers
that take women over the age of50 out into a field and dress
them up like a goddess and dogoddess photography and great,
(15:52):
that's fantastic, that's superfun.
Please don't call it witchcraft.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Please.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Where is that?
What?
What that's not Now look do.
I think that that is afantastic idea for the women's
group inside of a Covenstead.
Absolutely, get together, hirea photographer, dress up, be
(16:18):
silly, have fun.
Right, this is actuallysounding like fun.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yes absolutely Right where you're.
This is actually sounding likefun.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Get a bunch of headdresses.
Do the maids, do the marriedwomen, do the moms, do the
crones, do people individually?
That sounds like an incredibleway to celebrate whore manhood.
I would agree with you thereTogether.
You know, the men do the samething.
(16:45):
Just hand them a block of woodand a polaroid camera.
They don't need the wholeshebang.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
They really don't they don't want.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Trust me, they don't need hair and makeup, they don't
really care just let.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
The majority of times you give us a basketball set,
it's out on the court.
We'll figure out something.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's my point just give them an activity or a thing
and maybe get a photographer totake random pictures.
That's fine.
But that is a celebration in adifferent way and it's unifying,
right, and it's all the stages.
But to continually singlepeople, I mean, come on, we also
have some covens where peopleare getting older and you've got
(17:22):
larger numbers in these oldercategories.
You'd be having a croning aweek in some cases, and it's not
that I don't love the idea ofit I don't have a problem with
the idea, it's just.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
This is what we're thinking about when we're having
these conversations, right,about these things yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
To me it seems like there is a better way to make
that connection and not have itbe again all about ourselves or
all about the individual.
That's where it's tough, youknow, because we do.
We want to honor people, wewant to celebrate them, but at
the same time, like what?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
no, no, I'm gonna say this now as a priest, and I'm
looking at this ritual and Ireally am very tempted to always
hear high priestess.
This looks like completely yourstuff, yeah, and not me.
So I'm gonna go back over hereand play with my legos and I get
that, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And I mean vice versa , when I'm looking at you going,
uh, you know where's my,where's my, uh, my treasury
report, I mean you know yeah,it's the same thing but there's
again, this is a.
This is a tough topic because Idon't want to take away no, but
it's like, okay, like even theidea of a wickening, because if
(18:48):
we go on the other end of thespectrum, in theory I love the
idea of a wickening, but it'snot a sacrament.
No, it is not, nor will.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
It is not a recognized right of the faith
not doing this will not keep youout of the summer exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
You are not.
You are not, uh, denying yourchild a godless existence.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
If you don't do this, I mean, because I think most
people don't realize that achristening is literally their
belief, that without this youcannot christening is it is
based on that path Absolutelyessential.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
If this rite does not happen, this child's soul is in
danger.
Right yeah, the bar and batmitzvah of the Jewish faith,
it's the same thing there, thingthere.
(19:50):
Without that passage, thatceremony, that person is not
viewed as an adult inside of thetribe.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
That is the religion.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
We don't have that.
We are so cut and dry.
You are an initiate or you'renot.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That's it and not being an initiate or not being
an initiator.
Not being an initiator stillwill not keep you out of the
summer, Exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Exactly.
We don't believe there is noright, there is no barrier by
not having a degree to practicethe faith or participate or do
certain things.
We just see it as a higherattainment of knowledge that
makes people clergy versus notRight.
Attainment of knowledge thatmakes people clergy versus not
(20:26):
right.
That's that's really I mean, ifwe want to be very, very basic
about it.
So this is, I think, part ofthe reason why, you know, when
we hear some of the elders talkabout the newer practices, they
do they kind of roll their eyesand they seem a little
disgruntled and curmudgeon-yabout it.
(20:47):
Right, because it's why.
Why is that even necessary?
Why is that a?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
thing, or is all of this an attempt to get us
together more often as a covento strengthen those bonds?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I wish it was.
I wish it was.
I see these practices mostlybeing carried out by people who
are unassociated with a group orwith a church of pagan practice
.
They're operating on their own,or you know, they're bringing
in a practitioner for thatparticular service, but then
(21:25):
that's it.
They have no furtherinteraction.
So I don't know, that's that'swhere it may look.
Hand fastings, wic and weddingsare at an all time high, but
none of these people are part ofchurches, very, very few of
them.
So go figure, a pagan weddingis trendy.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I did not realize that.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, very, oh my God , extremely.
A pagan wedding in the woods isall the rage, mm-hmm.
My daughter's boyfriend, whoordained himself to marry a
family member years ago,recently conducted a wedding for
a friend.
It was a pagan ceremony and Iwas looking at him going.
(22:09):
What the hell do you know about?
a pagan ceremony.
Yeah, and he was telling me allabout how he had to learn to
tie knots for the ceremony andhe told me that was the hardest
part of the whole thing was Ihad to learn how to tie this
really intricate Celtic knot.
And I'm like, let me guess,because you tied them together
(22:30):
in a hand fasting.
And he was like, yeah, I guess.
So I'm like yeah, yeah, yeah,that's just wild to me.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I mean, there's parts of that ritual I know and I'm
like no, y'all didn't do thosebecause.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I don't know.
This is where I mean we'reagain.
We're in this reallyinteresting spot right now where
the Internet offers enoughmaterial for people to be
dangerous without a realunderstanding and this is
dangerous, right, this is justwhat everybody's doing, so like.
So, anyway, I got the chance tosee the pictures, right.
(23:08):
Yeah, beautiful outdoor service, very woodsy, very, very pagan,
extremely.
I mean like the bride wasdressed like she was just
stepping out of the RenaissanceFestival, I mean you know all
the things.
Yeah, I think the groom hadhorns, I mean.
But here was the part that gotme, because these are the
(23:29):
moments, this is how you know,and I mean, again, I'm not
bashing on anybody's wedding,it's your wedding.
It looked beautiful.
I would have come.
It looked like a hoot.
The bride was walked down theaisle by someone dressed in one
of those dinosaur costumes thatyou see, you know on, uh, where
people the dancing dinosaurs thebig blow-up dinosaur costumes.
(23:49):
Yeah, I guess her father is notin the picture and so she was
walked down the aisle bydinosaur.
There's a part of me that findsthat infinitely hilarious.
I'm like that's amazing.
Absolutely, dance with yourdinosaur down the aisle
incredible.
On the other hand, as a paganpriestess, I can't preside over
that, there's no way.
(24:10):
Right, as a third degree, I'mlike listen, listen, right and
will.
Will I marry you?
Right, like, will I conduct aceremony?
You have two choices.
Yes, absolutely.
We can conduct a private, smallceremony where we marry you in
(24:31):
ritual space and then we do thewedding for everybody else.
Fine, have your dancingdinosaur and I will act more as
an officiant, totally fine.
Or let's have a ritual space,let's do the wedding, the hand
fasting, whatever you want tocall it, and then leave circle
(24:53):
dancing with the dinosaur orsomething like that.
I don't know.
But but some of these otherparts?
I'm like and and look, andpeople think I mean again,
because we are that society nowof everything's available, all
the information is out there.
But is it Because my daughter'sboyfriend performing this
(25:14):
ceremony?
Did he take his role seriously?
Absolutely.
These were close friends.
He was honored to perform theceremony.
Did he memorize role seriously?
Absolutely.
These were close friends.
He was honored to perform theceremony.
Did he memorize the words?
Absolutely.
Did he learn how to tie allthese fancy Celtic knots?
Absolutely.
But does he have any clue?
The significance behind them,or the lore or the history?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
No, or the purpose of what you're doing and why
you're doing it Right.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
That's something.
No or the purpose of whatyou're doing and why you're
doing it.
Right, that's something, yeah,yeah, I don't like it.
I don't like it.
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I don't like it either.
It bugs me.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
It really like.
That genuinely irks me Becauseit shouldn't.
But again, that's atraditionalist talking yes,
right, talking yes.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, yeah, it upsets me because that's it.
My brain automatically goeswhere's the traditionalist when?
What happened?
What did you do?
You're swearing loyalty tosomeone else and oaths and stuff
like this in front of the gods.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah To us you can't get no more sacred,
no more, no.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
And I don't know if I'm going to cross the line here
.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
so Go for it.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
We'll decide if maybe this will get edited out, maybe
it won't.
In a traditional setting, thatunion would be for a year and a
day at which time that bride andgroom would need to come back
and sit down with the priest andpriestess who officiated their
wedding yep specifically to saywould you like this to continue?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
or would y'all like to go your separate way?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
right, what's the what?
What say ye after this initialtrial?
Yeah, because that's what it is.
And then what?
And I mean, if they say great,then yeah, it's not like you're
coming back to us every singleyear no but initially that is a
part of what we do, yeahanything else on this?
(27:18):
Subject you can think of.
I just think we are in a timewhen let's let's be honest,
historically right.
We are in a time of abundance,we are in a time of uh
acquisition yeah right, that's,that's literally.
I don't know.
You know this like that.
(27:38):
This is how our generation, ourpeople in history, our time in
history is going to be known.
We are the consumers.
Yes, we have more shit thanhumans have ever had before.
Okay, so when we run out ofstuff to get our hands on and
(27:59):
again we still have too muchtime on our hands because we're
not hunting, we're not gathering.
We're not farming, we're notright.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
It doesn't take all day to cook one meal.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, we're not having to tax ourselves the way
we used to.
That now, sure, it spills overinto ceremony.
Let's create things.
Let's create things, let'screate celebrations, let's
create events, okay, I mean, hey, if that makes you happy and
(28:30):
you have the energy and thedesire and you are just a
consummate little pagan partyplanner, do it.
Go for it absolutely, like thatis joyful and it's wonderful.
But let's at least acknowledgewhat is necessary and what is
(28:50):
not, so that we're not makingothers who perhaps cannot afford
or are not able to attain thatthing, right, so they don't feel
bad.
You are no less a witch becauseyou were not wiccanned.
You were no less a witchbecause you were not croned.
(29:11):
That's the idea, right, let'scelebrate what is, but let's be
clear that others of thecommunity are not being seen as
less than for not having that.
Yeah, that's all.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Coffee, coffee.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Thanks for listening.
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Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
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Speaker 4 (29:46):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And so it is the end of our day.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
So walk with me till morning breaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, thank you.
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Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
So sounds like we have had some interest in, or
some questions about, croningyes, recently.
Okay, where would you like tostart?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
How about?
What is a crone?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes, can we start with that?
What is one Sure?
I mean, if we want to gettechnical, yes Can we start with
that.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
What is one Sure?
I mean, if we want to gettechnical?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It's just an old lady .
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's just an old lady .
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
A crone is any woman who is past her ability to
naturally conceive a child.
Right, that's it, that's it,that's it.
So the funny thing is right, acrone could be 45 years of age
or 65 years of age, I mean, orolder.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Or even younger.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Or anything in between.
Yeah, yes and no, though,because I do think right, I mean
medical.
Let's put medical situationsaside, right?
You know, traditionally a croneis someone who is an elder
within their own household.
They are, they are.
(01:36):
They are definitely well withintheir rights to obtain their
senior citizen discounts yes, toobtain their senior citizen
discounts, yes, and they seem tohave this accumulated knowledge
and wisdom.
And that's what I was going tosay.
It's not so much just thephysical, it is how you conduct
(01:56):
yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yeah, a crone is wise in a way that is speaky little,
listen much yes, yeah, verymuch, and crones are in most
instances.
They're not quick to emotion,they're not quick to reaction,
they're not quick to anger,they're not quick to much of
(02:20):
anything.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, they very much sit back, take it all in and
offer their advice or theirthoughts or their opinions when
it's absolutely necessary nowthe closest I've ever seen on tv
to the, what we refer to as acrone, would be what granny from
(02:43):
the beverly hillbillies maybe.
Maybe not quite as flamboyantor over the top but yeah, this,
knowing how to do these healingsand certain there.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, there are not a lot of great examples, no of
crones on television, because ofcourse I mean hollywood loves
young and and beautiful, so Imean the crone character for
many storylines is not even allthat interesting.
She has often been vilified,she's been neglected, she's been
(03:23):
right, she's been turned intothe wicked witch sort of thing
when they were turned into thethree, what?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
the three witches with the one eye and from great
mythology, yep yep.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So I mean, I can't think of a pop culture reference
crone no not, not off, notsomething that really cements
all of what she should be right,okay so now the traditional
requirements, not saying agreeor disagree okay, so traditional
(03:54):
requirements was based on craftright based on craft was one
must have given birth and begone through menopause.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Okay, which this then starts a different argument on
this or conversation on this.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Oh yeah, so you know, we have to deal with the
biological fact.
Everybody then wants to knowwell, what if you haven't given
birth, but you've been pregnant?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
What if you were unable to give birth Right?
What if you wanted to givebirth but you couldn't get
pregnant?
What if you have children, butbut you couldn't?
Get pregnant, what you knowright.
What if you have children butyou never gave birth to them?
Yeah, yeah we could play thatgame all day long.
I think for modern craft itdoesn't really matter.
(04:38):
No, I think the reality is thatyou have to have been a mother
yes that is really the, the, themarker, and please, I don't
want to hear any in it because Iknow it's coming.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I don't want to hear the, but I have pet babies I was
about to ask you that whatabout the fur babies?
No, no, no, I don't want tohear it.
That's not quite.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Because, for every woman that takes the crone title
, whether they themselves havehad a child of their own,
believe me when I say thatbecoming a mother, be it by
choice, by circumstance, by anykind of strange adoptive process
(05:25):
, right, whatever it might be,trust me when I say that sort of
is the moment where you knowthat relationship is priming you
for cronedom.
Yeah, but aside from that, yeah, you're done with menopause.
You no longer bleed, you cannotconceive anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I mean, those are now let me ask you is this going to
sound really weird, bear withme for a second.
Sure is a crony a femalemystery.
Or is it craft?
Is it the?
Is it part of our religion, oris it just something that came
from the female mission?
I'm not saying this, yeah,because then my question is is
(06:11):
what spiritual or religioussignificance does having a
croning do?
It's not like a first degree,it's not like an initiation.
Right, right, right right.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
So well, we're back to a ceremony versus just life,
Right?
So in my opinion okay and thisis not to take anything away
from anyone else a croning issimply an acknowledgement that
is honorific, Right.
It really is just usuallyinside of a Covenstead, an
(06:46):
acknowledgement of an elderfemale who has contributed much
to the community over the years,who has left a mark but who
maybe has never gained aninitiation beyond a first degree
.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
That to me, is someone who is deserving of a
croning.
Okay, because to crone a secondor to crone a third, that's
ridiculous.
Yeah, I see there's no point inthat.
And I and this is where I doget frustrated, because we do
see a lot of covens that startdoing, you know, oh, the croning
of ladies, such and such, andthen we have the, the queening
(07:29):
of ladies.
Oh, stop it.
Why are we inflating egos morethan we need to?
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
all right, then here's my next question on this.
All right, there's no maleequivalent of this ritual there
is is.
There is, I've never seen it.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Oh, of the ritual.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Right, there's no hermiting.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
No Right, there's no get off my lawn yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
But we could make it that would be a great one.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah, it's the great.
Get off my lawn-ing ExactlyBecause, again, it's ego.
That's what I find so funnyabout this when men hermit right
, when men were sage, if youwant to be you know, make it
sound nicer.
When that process theyliterally it is what it is it's
isolation.
(08:18):
They go off into their like,leave me alone.
Right, cut your hair, pull upyour pants, eat, eat a sandwich.
Get off my lawn.
You know I don't.
They don't want the pomp andcircumstance Somewhere along the
line.
However, because of matriarchal, you know the reclamation.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Of the matriarchal belief systems, right?
Oh, we have to honor the crone.
Oh, we have to honor the crone.
We have to honor the crone.
Okay, go sit down with yourgrandma for 45 minutes.
Yes, honor the crone.
Go volunteer a few hours amonth at an old folks home or at
a memory care clinic or careclinic or anywhere that is
(09:10):
packed with elderly people.
Go on earth the crone, the.
The great irony of that processis that in most cases, you're
talking about a society that islargely forgotten and shut away
yes.
So if you want to honor them, gobe amongst them.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
That's it, Because unfortunately again I know I
sound like a broken record herebut the ego thing I see too many
places where it's like, oh youknow, so-and-so turned 50.
It's time for a croning.
If she is a spry, active50-year-old who still has
children, maybe in their early20s, she's going to yoga class
(09:48):
every day, she's still workingand has, that woman is not being
croned.
That is not the criteria.
You know that is.
And look, the longer we live,the more delayed this idea of
what a crone is.
Yeah, it delays, it defers.
(10:08):
So it used to be when we werekids, right celebrating
somebody's 50th.
I mean, that's not a milestonenow, but it made more sense.
You know, we remember that.
You know, oh, you used to havea retirement party when you
turned 60.
Yeah, now people are workingtill they're 75.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yes.
So come on.
I mean, I mean, over the yearswe all heard that saying what,
uh, oh, no, no, 50s the new or60s, new 50, or something like
that exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
So there, there to me , there are other again.
What makes someone a crone?
My personal belief in thislargely, and this goes for men
and women, right.
So the hermit as well.
It is when you have reached apoint in life where your body
has given up Right or is nolonger serving you, but your
(11:01):
mind still is.
Yes, that's one of the keycomponents.
Okay, so, yeah, I can't do thethings physically that I used to
.
I need help with certainaspects of day-to-day life, but
my mind is still there.
Yep, it's still active, it'sstill functional, it's still
(11:23):
able to be a productive memberof the society, whereas my body
is not, because that's, if we goback, anthropologically right,
that's what it would have beengrandma is not able to go out
into the field anymore, right,right, but that doesn't mean she
can't watch the six-year-oldsand tell stories.
(11:44):
Right?
Doesn't mean she can't watchthe six year olds and tell
stories.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Right Doesn't mean that they can't do.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
They're still productive.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
They are still active , productive members of society.
Yes, and that's the thing weforget and it's where our
elderly in many cases.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
It's sad it's sad well, I mean we, we sort of
treat elk.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
We do the whole eldering thing about the same
way.
It just sort of there's noritual, there's no not, at least
not in our tradition.
There's no ritual or anythingto for that status.
It just sort of happens, yeah,yeah agreed.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
A lot of why I think croning has become more
popularized now especially, isbecause we are in this era of
women again, the reclaiming.
It's very new.
Agey, right, I no longer bleed.
Let's celebrate, because it'sthe opposite end of what we did
(12:42):
when you first bled as ateenager, right?
Or you know young adults, soit's the same idea, right?
Oh, we celebrated that, so nowlet's celebrate this other side.
This is a very new phenomenon,right?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
okay, I mean because for us guys, can I don't?
We don't celebrate the firsttime.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
We can I be graphic here?
Yeah did you celebrate yourlast poop?
I mean, okay, what, I don't seewhat?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
well again guys do not celebrate the first time
they have a dream.
Yeah, all right, it's not likeoh, hey, yeah, no yeah, I got a
boner we made a, a mess, that'swhat.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I mean, it's very this is all very much the the
female reclamation right,religious space.
We just see it as normal.
It just is what it is.
It's just part of it's thecycle.
It happens to all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, and please don't wig out.
If you look at somebody going,hey, so what are the traditional
requirements to do that andthey tell you a bunch of stuff
that you don't agree with, thatdoesn't mean they follow it that
way.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, but again, I just think you're not going to
see a ton of traditionalistsdoing this.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
No.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Because then we also become participation trophy
witches, yep, right, okay.
So it starts with a wiccaning.
So then we have what something?
A paging right, right or amaidening for you know, puberty.
And then we get in, and thenyou've got the hand fastings for
(14:25):
marriage and then it's like, ohboy, come on.
I can understand the want tofeel connected to your faith and
I understand the want to kindof parallel maybe what you grew
up with, right, or to feel likethere's a connection there.
But again, for mosttraditionalists that is doing
(14:49):
the opposite of what your faithis supposed to do, that is,
making it the me, me, me, me, meshow Right.
Instead of putting the focus onthe faith, Instead, yeah,
you're putting your you'realmost going.
It's about me in relation to thefaith no, it's not.
You're putting you're, you'realmost going.
It's about me.
In relation to the faith no,it's not, it's not I mean cause.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
At the end of the day , the faith will still be there,
without you.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Right, I mean, and the cycles will continue Without
us Without you.
Yeah, they just keep on going.
So it's it's always veryinteresting to see that like you
know again, you know socialmedia tiktok, rust and paste.
(15:31):
Sorry, had to, had to do it.
Had to do it.
Who knows, by the time thisairs, it might be back.
I don't know.
But you know, we see all thesecool things now on, like
instagram and you know these,these, like the photographers
that take women over the age of50 out into a field and dress
them up like a goddess and dogoddess photography and great,
(15:52):
that's fantastic, that's superfun.
Please don't call it witchcraft.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Please.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Where is that?
What?
What that's not Now look do.
I think that that is afantastic idea for the women's
group inside of a Covenstead.
Absolutely, get together, hirea photographer, dress up, be
(16:18):
silly, have fun.
Right, this is actuallysounding like fun.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yes absolutely Right where you're.
This is actually sounding likefun.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Get a bunch of headdresses.
Do the maids, do the marriedwomen, do the moms, do the
crones, do people individually?
That sounds like an incredibleway to celebrate whore manhood.
I would agree with you thereTogether.
You know, the men do the samething.
(16:45):
Just hand them a block of woodand a polaroid camera.
They don't need the wholeshebang.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
They really don't they don't want.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Trust me, they don't need hair and makeup, they don't
really care just let.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
The majority of times you give us a basketball set,
it's out on the court.
We'll figure out something.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's my point just give them an activity or a thing
and maybe get a photographer totake random pictures.
That's fine.
But that is a celebration in adifferent way and it's unifying,
right, and it's all the stages.
But to continually singlepeople, I mean, come on, we also
have some covens where peopleare getting older and you've got
(17:22):
larger numbers in these oldercategories.
You'd be having a croning aweek in some cases, and it's not
that I don't love the idea ofit I don't have a problem with
the idea, it's just.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
This is what we're thinking about when we're having
these conversations, right,about these things yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
To me it seems like there is a better way to make
that connection and not have itbe again all about ourselves or
all about the individual.
That's where it's tough, youknow, because we do.
We want to honor people, wewant to celebrate them, but at
the same time, like what?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
no, no, I'm gonna say this now as a priest, and I'm
looking at this ritual and Ireally am very tempted to always
hear high priestess.
This looks like completely yourstuff, yeah, and not me.
So I'm gonna go back over hereand play with my legos and I get
that, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And I mean vice versa , when I'm looking at you going,
uh, you know where's my,where's my, uh, my treasury
report, I mean you know yeah,it's the same thing but there's
again, this is a.
This is a tough topic because Idon't want to take away no, but
it's like, okay, like even theidea of a wickening, because if
(18:48):
we go on the other end of thespectrum, in theory I love the
idea of a wickening, but it'snot a sacrament.
No, it is not, nor will.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
It is not a recognized right of the faith
not doing this will not keep youout of the summer exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
You are not.
You are not, uh, denying yourchild a godless existence.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
If you don't do this, I mean, because I think most
people don't realize that achristening is literally their
belief, that without this youcannot christening is it is
based on that path Absolutelyessential.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
If this rite does not happen, this child's soul is in
danger.
Right yeah, the bar and batmitzvah of the Jewish faith,
it's the same thing there, thingthere.
(19:50):
Without that passage, thatceremony, that person is not
viewed as an adult inside of thetribe.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
That is the religion.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
We don't have that.
We are so cut and dry.
You are an initiate or you'renot.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That's it and not being an initiate or not being
an initiator.
Not being an initiator stillwill not keep you out of the
summer, Exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Exactly.
We don't believe there is noright, there is no barrier by
not having a degree to practicethe faith or participate or do
certain things.
We just see it as a higherattainment of knowledge that
makes people clergy versus notRight.
Attainment of knowledge thatmakes people clergy versus not
(20:26):
right.
That's that's really I mean, ifwe want to be very, very basic
about it.
So this is, I think, part ofthe reason why, you know, when
we hear some of the elders talkabout the newer practices, they
do they kind of roll their eyesand they seem a little
disgruntled and curmudgeon-yabout it.
(20:47):
Right, because it's why.
Why is that even necessary?
Why is that a?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
thing, or is all of this an attempt to get us
together more often as a covento strengthen those bonds?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I wish it was.
I wish it was.
I see these practices mostlybeing carried out by people who
are unassociated with a group orwith a church of pagan practice
.
They're operating on their own,or you know, they're bringing
in a practitioner for thatparticular service, but then
(21:25):
that's it.
They have no furtherinteraction.
So I don't know, that's that'swhere it may look.
Hand fastings, wic and weddingsare at an all time high, but
none of these people are part ofchurches, very, very few of
them.
So go figure, a pagan weddingis trendy.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I did not realize that.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, very, oh my God , extremely.
A pagan wedding in the woods isall the rage, mm-hmm.
My daughter's boyfriend, whoordained himself to marry a
family member years ago,recently conducted a wedding for
a friend.
It was a pagan ceremony and Iwas looking at him going.
(22:09):
What the hell do you know about?
a pagan ceremony.
Yeah, and he was telling me allabout how he had to learn to
tie knots for the ceremony andhe told me that was the hardest
part of the whole thing was Ihad to learn how to tie this
really intricate Celtic knot.
And I'm like, let me guess,because you tied them together
(22:30):
in a hand fasting.
And he was like, yeah, I guess.
So I'm like yeah, yeah, yeah,that's just wild to me.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I mean, there's parts of that ritual I know and I'm
like no, y'all didn't do thosebecause.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I don't know.
This is where I mean we'reagain.
We're in this reallyinteresting spot right now where
the Internet offers enoughmaterial for people to be
dangerous without a realunderstanding and this is
dangerous, right, this is justwhat everybody's doing, so like.
So, anyway, I got the chance tosee the pictures, right.
(23:08):
Yeah, beautiful outdoor service, very woodsy, very, very pagan,
extremely.
I mean like the bride wasdressed like she was just
stepping out of the RenaissanceFestival, I mean you know all
the things.
Yeah, I think the groom hadhorns, I mean.
But here was the part that gotme, because these are the
(23:29):
moments, this is how you know,and I mean, again, I'm not
bashing on anybody's wedding,it's your wedding.
It looked beautiful.
I would have come.
It looked like a hoot.
The bride was walked down theaisle by someone dressed in one
of those dinosaur costumes thatyou see, you know on, uh, where
people the dancing dinosaurs thebig blow-up dinosaur costumes.
(23:49):
Yeah, I guess her father is notin the picture and so she was
walked down the aisle bydinosaur.
There's a part of me that findsthat infinitely hilarious.
I'm like that's amazing.
Absolutely, dance with yourdinosaur down the aisle
incredible.
On the other hand, as a paganpriestess, I can't preside over
that, there's no way.
(24:10):
Right, as a third degree, I'mlike listen, listen, right and
will.
Will I marry you?
Right, like, will I conduct aceremony?
You have two choices.
Yes, absolutely.
We can conduct a private, smallceremony where we marry you in
(24:31):
ritual space and then we do thewedding for everybody else.
Fine, have your dancingdinosaur and I will act more as
an officiant, totally fine.
Or let's have a ritual space,let's do the wedding, the hand
fasting, whatever you want tocall it, and then leave circle
(24:53):
dancing with the dinosaur orsomething like that.
I don't know.
But but some of these otherparts?
I'm like and and look, andpeople think I mean again,
because we are that society nowof everything's available, all
the information is out there.
But is it Because my daughter'sboyfriend performing this
(25:14):
ceremony?
Did he take his role seriously?
Absolutely.
These were close friends.
He was honored to perform theceremony.
Did he memorize role seriously?
Absolutely.
These were close friends.
He was honored to perform theceremony.
Did he memorize the words?
Absolutely.
Did he learn how to tie allthese fancy Celtic knots?
Absolutely.
But does he have any clue?
The significance behind them,or the lore or the history?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
No, or the purpose of what you're doing and why
you're doing it Right.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
That's something.
No or the purpose of whatyou're doing and why you're
doing it.
Right, that's something, yeah,yeah, I don't like it.
I don't like it.
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I don't like it either.
It bugs me.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
It really like.
That genuinely irks me Becauseit shouldn't.
But again, that's atraditionalist talking yes,
right, talking yes.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, yeah, it upsets me because that's it.
My brain automatically goeswhere's the traditionalist when?
What happened?
What did you do?
You're swearing loyalty tosomeone else and oaths and stuff
like this in front of the gods.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah To us you can't get no more sacred,
no more, no.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
And I don't know if I'm going to cross the line here
.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
so Go for it.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
We'll decide if maybe this will get edited out, maybe
it won't.
In a traditional setting, thatunion would be for a year and a
day at which time that bride andgroom would need to come back
and sit down with the priest andpriestess who officiated their
wedding yep specifically to saywould you like this to continue?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
or would y'all like to go your separate way?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
right, what's the what?
What say ye after this initialtrial?
Yeah, because that's what it is.
And then what?
And I mean, if they say great,then yeah, it's not like you're
coming back to us every singleyear no but initially that is a
part of what we do, yeahanything else on this?
(27:18):
Subject you can think of.
I just think we are in a timewhen let's let's be honest,
historically right.
We are in a time of abundance,we are in a time of uh
acquisition yeah right, that's,that's literally.
I don't know.
You know this like that.
(27:38):
This is how our generation, ourpeople in history, our time in
history is going to be known.
We are the consumers.
Yes, we have more shit thanhumans have ever had before.
Okay, so when we run out ofstuff to get our hands on and
(27:59):
again we still have too muchtime on our hands because we're
not hunting, we're not gathering.
We're not farming, we're notright.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
It doesn't take all day to cook one meal.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, we're not having to tax ourselves the way
we used to.
That now, sure, it spills overinto ceremony.
Let's create things.
Let's create things, let'screate celebrations, let's
create events, okay, I mean, hey, if that makes you happy and
(28:30):
you have the energy and thedesire and you are just a
consummate little pagan partyplanner, do it.
Go for it absolutely, like thatis joyful and it's wonderful.
But let's at least acknowledgewhat is necessary and what is
(28:50):
not, so that we're not makingothers who perhaps cannot afford
or are not able to attain thatthing, right, so they don't feel
bad.
You are no less a witch becauseyou were not wiccanned.
You were no less a witchbecause you were not croned.
(29:11):
That's the idea, right, let'scelebrate what is, but let's be
clear that others of thecommunity are not being seen as
less than for not having that.
Yeah, that's all.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Coffee, coffee.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andReddit.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And so it is the end of our day.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
So walk with me till morning breaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, thank you.
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