February 26, 2025 • 24 mins
Can belief make something real or sacred? Explore this compelling question with us as we unravel the intricate ties between belief, tradition, and community dynamics. The example of sage smudging serves as our starting point, where we question why this widespread belief persists despite our tradition's differing perspective. This episode challenges the notion that strong personal conviction can override traditional wisdom in rituals and spells. We also consider the art of sharing traditionalist perspectives with those holding different beliefs, and the nuanced approach required to avoid being dismissive or condescending.
Learn how to maintain the integrity of our beliefs while respecting diverse opinions and avoiding an authoritarian stance. We share a real-life conversation about hot foot powder from our coven's Discord server, illustrating the delicate balance between educating and preserving open dialogue. Reflecting on the significance of careful consideration before embracing new ideas, we encourage patience before making changes to established practices, always asking "why do we do things?".
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Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Alright, Lord Knight, I got a fun question.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Alright.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
If everyone believes something, does it make it real
or sacred, or so, if the massesbelieve it?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
it real right I guess it would depend on what we're
talking about all right, I'mgonna give you okay, if we're
talking about a mountain, Idon't think the mountain's gonna
become a molehill okay allright, but so and I know we have
talked about this before onthis podcast- but,
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I'm gonna use it as an example because it's the best
one I've got.
We, as in Life Temple andSeminary, do not believe that
sage is used for cleansing.
No.
However, the grand majority ofpeople out there Do.
Yeah, have now right, evenpeople who are not practitioners
(01:26):
of a certain path.
Right, there is this wide heldbelief that has been adopted in
native american sage smudgingright that it cleanses and that
it removes negativity.
So if everyone believes it, isit true?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I am cannot sit here and discount the power of belief
.
Right, all right.
We all know how anybody whoruns up against that mm-hmm gets
flat and fast.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
All right.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I guess another way to look at it is if someone
wants to use a rock, an herb, athing inside of their ritual,
but the advice about that itemis different than what that
person believes, if their beliefis strong enough and their
(02:23):
conviction is strong enough,does it matter?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Does it really?
I don't think it really mattersat that point, when we're doing
, when we're doing spells andstuff like this and we're we're
doing real spells and we'retrying to fix things about
ourselves and all this otherstuff.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Belief is a big point to all this.
Okay, all right.
Again, I do not sit there andthink, while at the same time I
don't think anybody's going tosit there and be able to
honestly turn a mountain into amolehill so here.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
But here's where it becomes interesting.
Right so, as traditionalists,if we do not collectively, right
as a group, a group, if we say,okay, we don't believe that
sage cleanses, right, okay, andwe meet someone who has been
(03:15):
practicing, solitary, practicingon their own, for long periods
of time, and they're doing thisand they're used to doing it,
and again, they believe thatsage is doing this.
What are we doing by impartingthis knowledge?
Are we bursting their bubble?
Are we helping them?
Are we hurting them?
Or are we just giving them moreinformation and then what they
(03:38):
choose to do with it is up tothem?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I tend to go with the last one is what I it's what I
tend to think is what I.
This is what I see of it.
Blah, blah, blah.
Either you take it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Right, see, because I think there's been many
instances where, astraditionalists we have I know,
I've experienced it firsthand wefeel like we're bursting
someone's bubble Right, likewell, I know you've been doing
that thing, but here's whythat's probably not working.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
You're also.
You're also dealing with thewhole entire problem on.
This is even you've said it.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Once you learn those mysteries the luster sort of
yeah, it falls off yeah, yeah,but it's like in a weird way,
are we?
I don't know it's that it's itreally is?
To me it's a strange moment of?
Are we?
I don't know it's that it's itreally is?
To me it's a strange moment of,are we?
(04:28):
How do we approach that then?
How do we do that withouthaving it be devastating for
someone?
I mean, could you imagine thatyou've got so many people right
now?
They smudge their house all thetime right there.
They may not even be connectedto any form of paganism or craft
(04:48):
, but they've been doing thisand doing this and doing this
because for them, they think itfeels good, it they see a
benefit.
And then we come along and goyeah about that, about that, are
we well?
are we then the asshole right?
Are we the jerks?
Because we took that away fromthem?
(05:09):
Yes, We've now caused them toquestion, right we?
Speaker 3 (05:12):
are the?
I'm not saying we're not we arethose jerks.
But we're not doing it to bemean, are you with me?
Okay, we're not sitting out toburst these people, right?
I'm sorry, when you sit downand you ask me a question, what
do I do?
I give you an answer.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah.
So here's the thing If thequestion isn't asked, do we
volunteer?
I tend not to.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I tend not to Interesting.
Now don't get me wrong.
When I'm sitting there and I'mat those rituals and the person
pulls out the sage and they dothe whole thing, I'm like, okay,
whatever, I just kind of rollmy eyes, okay, okay.
You can probably tell from mybody language that I'm not too
into this.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
But now what about in an environment?
Okay, because I love the whatif?
Game.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So let's say we had a guest at our temple and they
were maybe doing a demonstrationor a teaching or class practice
, whatever, and they saysomething that really greatly
contradicts something that wehave been teaching our folks for
as long as we can remember.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Is this person in there teaching our folks, or
there's just a general class ata gather or something like that?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Let's assume they're teaching our folks.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh, then there would be no in our tradition.
This is what we believe and why.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Okay, so you would nip it in the ass, right then
and there Right.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Okay, because now we're talking about my tradition
.
Now, if we're out of the gatherand somebody's doing, I'm just
going to keep my mouth shut.
This is what this person Icannot correct this person's
feet okay I don't want it doneto me.
Why would I do it to?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
you okay.
So it's basically to thedifference of is it in my house
right or not right okay, okay.
Yeah, because we, again, we seethis a lot like.
Sometimes we have newer folkswho come to craft and, look, we
always have a fine balancebetween, I think, the new, very
(07:14):
exuberant, very gung-ho students, right, who have been
practicing in their own way forhowever long, and they want to
share and they want toparticipate and they want
community, and then there arethe other members who, in many
instances, are just like I don'tknow enough, so I'm not going
(07:36):
to say anything, I'm going tokeep my mouth shut, I'm just
going to hang back.
But a lot of times we seesituations in that where, all of
a sudden, we've got a neophyte,you know, talking about
something that we as a thirdmaybe don't agree with.
It's basically, how do wecontinue to encourage that
(08:04):
person to speak and toparticipate but also correct
this thing that might confusethe hell out of everybody?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Well, first of all, I think it's very important not
to crush the original idea.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, so again it's hard, again it can be really
difficult, though I know,because you don't want to attack
the idea, right.
Directly.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Right, all right.
What you want to do is dohere's what we believe and why.
And so, because we believe this, this doesn't work like that.
Here, right.
And once we start breaking itdown like that, either people
are going to look at you goingI'm nuts, or that makes better
(08:47):
sense, okay, okay.
Because I'm still back.
At the end of the day, you havea choice.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
All right.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
People go to the doctor.
You're going to the doctor toget his advice about your health
.
That's it.
His professional advice doesn'tmean you have to do it.
You don't have to take thepills.
You don't have to do thetreatments if you don't want to
you can look at the doctor andgo.
No, but no, everybody thinksyou have to you're right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That makes an awful lot of sense.
This is where it's.
These are sticky inner workings, though.
Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
But you don't listen.
But people don't listen to whatpriests and priestesses and
doctors say.
Here is our advice.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
This is what we think Right, Instead of taking it as
what you think they've taken itas some gospel or something,
because you have that title oryou have that authority but then
there's also the other piece,which is the conflictual piece,
where we can come across aseither know-it-alls or difficult
(09:53):
or pick your adjective right wecome pompous.
That it's challenging because,on one hand, any priest or
priestess worth their salt isgoing to be willing to say you
know, I don't know.
There are, there's a lot ofgray right.
There's a lot of things I don'tknow the answer to or I am
(10:15):
unsure of.
It could be this, it could bethis, but now, when we get the
pompous, and stuff like that out.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
It really depends on where the other person is.
If the other person is alreadyangry over the thing.
No, but we come off as pompousI don't think it's always that.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I think sometimes we just have to come in very
quickly to course correct rightand it seems like where it can
come across that we're kind ofreally contradicting that person
or singling them out orsomething like that.
You know, um, it can be a fineline that we have to kind of
ride because this day and age,so many people they have
(10:55):
experience doing something, sothey assume that that makes it
correct.
The neophyte is less lesslikely to say well, in my
experience or in my opinion,right to clarify that it's
singular and it's not everybodyright, right that it, yeah, so I
(11:17):
don't know, I don't know Like.
We even had a had a quick oneon discord the other day.
I'm using this just becauseit's, it's the one that's right,
top of mind.
I mentioned something about aparticular witch shop in town
and their hot foot powder beingexcellent.
Someone else said you know whatis what is hot foot powder?
(11:45):
And a first degree beat me toit and said well, it's, it's
when you want to get rid ofsomeone, right?
Or I think they said, oh, it'swhen you want someone to leave
you alone.
That's what they said and Iright, and I came back in.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I got to remember.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, they said.
You know, they said it's whenit's what you use, when you want
someone to leave you alone.
And I and I had to come back inand say, well, more
specifically, it's when you wantto get rid of something or
someone.
It's not just to get somebodyto leave you alone.
But you know, even writing thatafter the fact, one of the
(12:19):
things that happens when you'rea third is it shuts down the
conversation Because it's ourword, becomes the end word, and
I'm like that's not what Iwanted to have happen.
I would have loved for thediscussion to continue on.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, it's just we're putting a clarification in it,
right, but no, you're right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It's hard for it to not come across as, oh, Lady
Alba just put her foot down andsaid what this thing is and
that's the end of the topic.
No, no, I'm just trying to domy part to educate about the
thing you know.
I mean, even we didn't even getinto you know the fact that
it's not even our tradition Hotfoot powder is.
It's voodoo.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, here's the reason I'm sitting here going uh
, no um but it can be difficult.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And again, this is where traditionalists, you know
we ride that line.
People do think that we tend tobe very black and white in the
thinking and I, and I think themistake is they don't realize
that when we say something likethat, that is what we're doing,
is we're saying well, in mytradition, in our tradition this
(13:30):
is this and this is this.
Other people see it as oh, theyjust shit all over what I think
they're being elitist.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
They know what?
All all the yes and you'resitting back going no.
We're just saying this is whatwe believe.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
We didn't.
We're not, we're not.
Yeah, you can you.
We didn't say you couldn'tbelieve that.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
This is what drives me up the wall is why is it that
, if I believe in something andyou believe, in opposite that
that means I have a negativeconnotation about it.
That's a, a, you know what?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
bravo, because that's a damn good freaking question.
When did that happen?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
when did it become?
If I say a and you say b, thatmeans war.
War, I mean.
Why do I automatically?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
have to right.
You're right.
You're right.
Just because it doesn't meanthat we cannot continue a civil
discussion, it doesn't mean thatwe can't continue to coexist.
It doesn't mean yeah I.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I have no problem.
If you're going to sit there,go.
Hey, this is what we believe inblah, blah, blah.
And this is why.
Okay here, this is what webelieve in while we believe blah
, blah, blah, right, right,where are we similar?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
yeah, nobody threw down a gauntlet, not, it wasn't
a challenge.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
But I see this happening more and more it's
kind of like not trying to getpolitical.
It's like the whole immigrationthing.
If you're not, if you're notfor illegal immigration, you're
against all immigrants.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That ain't you know what?
Abortion?
It's the same thing.
It's the same thing.
You, you, you must pick a side.
Why, why, why?
Why can't I just say this is me, if that's you cool, I didn't
say anything anti.
That's so funny, that's soaccurate though, but it makes no
(15:15):
sense to me yeah and again, andwe can bring this up.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
It's like the whole initiation thing.
Yes, we believe in it, butwe're not setting our hair on
fire because somebody else don't.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
But you're right, but this is where pagans, if we're
being honest, this is where weare behind.
We are behind because in everycity, in just about every town,
you have some sort of group orcollective that is uh shoot, I'm
(15:47):
forgetting the name right now,but basically it's a group where
religious leaders from frommultiple religions come together
every so often and mingle andtalk and and maybe they do a
little panel or a discussion orthey share their individual
(16:07):
views on topics and these look,the christians have been doing
this for a long time.
Jews, muslims, um, all of yourlarge mainstream religions have
been doing this for a while.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
What is it?
The Southern Baptist Convention?
I don't even know.
I mean, they have a big oldconvention each year.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, yeah yeah, you'll have.
You know, lutherans andMethodists and Catholics and
Baptists and Zionists, allsitting down and just kind of
talking.
Yes, I can understand wherepeople might say it's a little
easier.
Well, they all, they allbelieve in the bible.
Yes, yeah, but they're allinterpreting certain components
(16:52):
of it differently.
Yeah, so that's a chance tohave these open discussions.
Pagans are a little behind onthat.
We have not yet gotten to theplace where we sit down with
multiple traditions and just saywe believe this about this, oh,
and we believe this about this,and and just go okay and just
(17:18):
hear it.
Not, no, debating it, not todecide.
Is that right or is it wrong?
Is it law?
Is it canon?
Is who cares?
Just to share?
Speaker 3 (17:29):
that's it no, no, I mean I.
There's been plenty of timesover the years I'm sitting here
teaching classes going.
Here's what I know aboutravenwood and how they do this.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Here's what I know, lord lou and their group that we
gotten, because I think againin that whole idea of a
reclaiming religion, everybody'strying to claim or reclaim, yes
or no, right or wrong, do ordon't, and it's like shut up,
(17:58):
we're never going to be able todo that.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Your first day in class, the first words that come
out of my mouth, I am going toteach you a way.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
A tradition, a way?
Yep Not the way.
Mm, hmm, but we do, we lose it,we lose sight of that, and then
everybody gets into their weirdlittle bickery, whatever's.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Or it goes round and around and around for way too
long and it doesn't seem to End.
Yeah, yeah, it just keeps going.
Like nobody put a timer on itand went okay, five minutes
discuss.
Like nobody put a timer on itand went okay, five minutes
discuss, and that's it At theend of five minutes.
We're not trying to achieveanything.
We're not trying to accomplishanything.
(18:42):
It's it, we're done.
We're done.
Move on to another topic orlet's have lunch.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Whatever it is right.
Yeah, this is stuff that Ithink we do need to do in the
community.
Trust me, I would love to getsome other leaders on here and
have some of these discussions.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Oh God, yes, I mean, we're more than open to that,
because we do.
We want to have thesediscussions without that sense
of it being a dispute or anattack or some backhanded slap
against.
Yeah, that's where it's soproblematic.
We are so quick and when I saywe write pagans to like roll our
(19:22):
eyes at what somebody elsepractices or does, and I'm like,
when did this?
Why?
It's?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
it's tough, it's tough, yeah, I mean I for as
much, as most people aren'tgoing to like it.
Yes, the lesson of treatingothers as you want to be treated
is a quite helpful thing.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
It reminds you that people believe just as much in
what they believe as you do.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, and I mean we don't.
It's not up to us, it's not upto us to convince, to sway, to
try to infringe.
All we can do is just say thatis someone else's tradition,
that's it, that's all there isto it.
(20:09):
But it does become a challenge,even within a group setting.
I mean, I've seen over my yearsat Life Temple write the whys.
Someone says well, you shoulddo blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Why?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Why.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Mm-hmm, and most of the time, whether or not there
is a why to back it updetermines how valid we find
that information, then yes, yeah, yeah, yes, I mean again the
why behind everything'simportant it is it really is um
there.
We, we can't, we can't disputethat there is yeah there's a lot
(20:47):
of need behind the why, butthis is good though.
This is a great, I hope, eyeopener and discussion builder.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
My point here is it can be done.
We've been involved in this.
We've involved with othertemples that do completely
different than us yeah.
All right, it is capable, andso, if you just got to remember,
you need to stay on your sideof the fence yeah, well it's.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Look, I mean, when I go to another group's ritual,
I'm just here for the ride.
Yeah, I mean, at that point I Ilook at it this way I go, this
is not my car and I am not inthe driver's seat, nope.
And so if this person decidesto take a left on main street
(21:39):
when I think they should havetaken a right, well, I guess
we're going around the block,guys, because I have no control
over what's happening and it'snot my place.
It is not my place at all, to.
I'm in their house.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, yeah, you're in their circle yeah, yeah, yeah,
you're in their circle.
Yeah, I'm a guest, you'reexpecting representation in
someone else's circle.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, no, what, really yeah.
So I'm just here for the rideand that's it.
And I mean I will always try tohave an intelligent discussion
after the fact, especially ifthere's something I'm unfamiliar
with, to say, well, why did youdo it that way or what is that?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
you know, and I've never seen that before, and
maybe I'll get an answer well,what's surprising is is how many
times you get those questionsand then you start going back
and looking at your owntradition yes, yes, and, mind
you, for a lot of our elders,that's how they form their
circles in the first place yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Because they were doing something.
Then they saw another group dosomething and they went wait,
that's a better idea.
Yeah, and they altered theirown material.
And I mean, do we then pointfingers and go, oh, you stole
that from the Gardnerians or youborrowed that from the?
I don't know.
None of us knows with a hundredpercent certainty all right,
(23:02):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
When it comes to witchcraft, placing cultural
appropriation on it is stupid.
There's no way idea.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
We have no way of knowing if it's right or if it's
wrong by any measure ofantiquity.
So okay, okay, if that seems towork better, then you make a
change.
Where you want to be cautiousis that you're not doing it just
because you saw it right like,oh, we just got back from
(23:29):
so-and-so's ritual and now we'regonna rewrite everything.
No, no, no, hang on, hang on.
You know, maybe take a stepback and analyze it first and
give it some time before youstart like rewriting a lecture
series, because of one thing.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Right, yeah, huh, anything else.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Let's go get coffee Coffee.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Peg and Coffee Talk is broughtto you by Life Temple and
Seminary.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
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Speaker 4 (24:09):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing pyres.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till
morning breaks.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till
morning.
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Alright, Lord Knight, I got a fun question.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Alright.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
If everyone believes something, does it make it real
or sacred, or so, if the massesbelieve it?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
it real right I guess it would depend on what we're
talking about all right, I'mgonna give you okay, if we're
talking about a mountain, Idon't think the mountain's gonna
become a molehill okay allright, but so and I know we have
talked about this before onthis podcast- but,
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I'm gonna use it as an example because it's the best
one I've got.
We, as in Life Temple andSeminary, do not believe that
sage is used for cleansing.
No.
However, the grand majority ofpeople out there Do.
Yeah, have now right, evenpeople who are not practitioners
(01:26):
of a certain path.
Right, there is this wide heldbelief that has been adopted in
native american sage smudgingright that it cleanses and that
it removes negativity.
So if everyone believes it, isit true?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I am cannot sit here and discount the power of belief
.
Right, all right.
We all know how anybody whoruns up against that mm-hmm gets
flat and fast.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
All right.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I guess another way to look at it is if someone
wants to use a rock, an herb, athing inside of their ritual,
but the advice about that itemis different than what that
person believes, if their beliefis strong enough and their
(02:23):
conviction is strong enough,does it matter?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Does it really?
I don't think it really mattersat that point, when we're doing
, when we're doing spells andstuff like this and we're we're
doing real spells and we'retrying to fix things about
ourselves and all this otherstuff.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Belief is a big point to all this.
Okay, all right.
Again, I do not sit there andthink, while at the same time I
don't think anybody's going tosit there and be able to
honestly turn a mountain into amolehill so here.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
But here's where it becomes interesting.
Right so, as traditionalists,if we do not collectively, right
as a group, a group, if we say,okay, we don't believe that
sage cleanses, right, okay, andwe meet someone who has been
(03:15):
practicing, solitary, practicingon their own, for long periods
of time, and they're doing thisand they're used to doing it,
and again, they believe thatsage is doing this.
What are we doing by impartingthis knowledge?
Are we bursting their bubble?
Are we helping them?
Are we hurting them?
Or are we just giving them moreinformation and then what they
(03:38):
choose to do with it is up tothem?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I tend to go with the last one is what I it's what I
tend to think is what I.
This is what I see of it.
Blah, blah, blah.
Either you take it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Right, see, because I think there's been many
instances where, astraditionalists we have I know,
I've experienced it firsthand wefeel like we're bursting
someone's bubble Right, likewell, I know you've been doing
that thing, but here's whythat's probably not working.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
You're also.
You're also dealing with thewhole entire problem on.
This is even you've said it.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Once you learn those mysteries the luster sort of
yeah, it falls off yeah, yeah,but it's like in a weird way,
are we?
I don't know it's that it's itreally is?
To me it's a strange moment of?
Are we?
I don't know it's that it's itreally is?
To me it's a strange moment of,are we?
(04:28):
How do we approach that then?
How do we do that withouthaving it be devastating for
someone?
I mean, could you imagine thatyou've got so many people right
now?
They smudge their house all thetime right there.
They may not even be connectedto any form of paganism or craft
(04:48):
, but they've been doing thisand doing this and doing this
because for them, they think itfeels good, it they see a
benefit.
And then we come along and goyeah about that, about that, are
we well?
are we then the asshole right?
Are we the jerks?
Because we took that away fromthem?
(05:09):
Yes, We've now caused them toquestion, right we?
Speaker 3 (05:12):
are the?
I'm not saying we're not we arethose jerks.
But we're not doing it to bemean, are you with me?
Okay, we're not sitting out toburst these people, right?
I'm sorry, when you sit downand you ask me a question, what
do I do?
I give you an answer.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah.
So here's the thing If thequestion isn't asked, do we
volunteer?
I tend not to.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I tend not to Interesting.
Now don't get me wrong.
When I'm sitting there and I'mat those rituals and the person
pulls out the sage and they dothe whole thing, I'm like, okay,
whatever, I just kind of rollmy eyes, okay, okay.
You can probably tell from mybody language that I'm not too
into this.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
But now what about in an environment?
Okay, because I love the whatif?
Game.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So let's say we had a guest at our temple and they
were maybe doing a demonstrationor a teaching or class practice
, whatever, and they saysomething that really greatly
contradicts something that wehave been teaching our folks for
as long as we can remember.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Is this person in there teaching our folks, or
there's just a general class ata gather or something like that?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Let's assume they're teaching our folks.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh, then there would be no in our tradition.
This is what we believe and why.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Okay, so you would nip it in the ass, right then
and there Right.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Okay, because now we're talking about my tradition
.
Now, if we're out of the gatherand somebody's doing, I'm just
going to keep my mouth shut.
This is what this person Icannot correct this person's
feet okay I don't want it doneto me.
Why would I do it to?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
you okay.
So it's basically to thedifference of is it in my house
right or not right okay, okay.
Yeah, because we, again, we seethis a lot like.
Sometimes we have newer folkswho come to craft and, look, we
always have a fine balancebetween, I think, the new, very
(07:14):
exuberant, very gung-ho students, right, who have been
practicing in their own way forhowever long, and they want to
share and they want toparticipate and they want
community, and then there arethe other members who, in many
instances, are just like I don'tknow enough, so I'm not going
(07:36):
to say anything, I'm going tokeep my mouth shut, I'm just
going to hang back.
But a lot of times we seesituations in that where, all of
a sudden, we've got a neophyte,you know, talking about
something that we as a thirdmaybe don't agree with.
It's basically, how do wecontinue to encourage that
(08:04):
person to speak and toparticipate but also correct
this thing that might confusethe hell out of everybody?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Well, first of all, I think it's very important not
to crush the original idea.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, so again it's hard, again it can be really
difficult, though I know,because you don't want to attack
the idea, right.
Directly.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Right, all right.
What you want to do is dohere's what we believe and why.
And so, because we believe this, this doesn't work like that.
Here, right.
And once we start breaking itdown like that, either people
are going to look at you goingI'm nuts, or that makes better
(08:47):
sense, okay, okay.
Because I'm still back.
At the end of the day, you havea choice.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
All right.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
People go to the doctor.
You're going to the doctor toget his advice about your health
.
That's it.
His professional advice doesn'tmean you have to do it.
You don't have to take thepills.
You don't have to do thetreatments if you don't want to
you can look at the doctor andgo.
No, but no, everybody thinksyou have to you're right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That makes an awful lot of sense.
This is where it's.
These are sticky inner workings, though.
Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
But you don't listen.
But people don't listen to whatpriests and priestesses and
doctors say.
Here is our advice.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
This is what we think Right, Instead of taking it as
what you think they've taken itas some gospel or something,
because you have that title oryou have that authority but then
there's also the other piece,which is the conflictual piece,
where we can come across aseither know-it-alls or difficult
(09:53):
or pick your adjective right wecome pompous.
That it's challenging because,on one hand, any priest or
priestess worth their salt isgoing to be willing to say you
know, I don't know.
There are, there's a lot ofgray right.
There's a lot of things I don'tknow the answer to or I am
(10:15):
unsure of.
It could be this, it could bethis, but now, when we get the
pompous, and stuff like that out.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
It really depends on where the other person is.
If the other person is alreadyangry over the thing.
No, but we come off as pompousI don't think it's always that.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I think sometimes we just have to come in very
quickly to course correct rightand it seems like where it can
come across that we're kind ofreally contradicting that person
or singling them out orsomething like that.
You know, um, it can be a fineline that we have to kind of
ride because this day and age,so many people they have
(10:55):
experience doing something, sothey assume that that makes it
correct.
The neophyte is less lesslikely to say well, in my
experience or in my opinion,right to clarify that it's
singular and it's not everybodyright, right that it, yeah, so I
(11:17):
don't know, I don't know Like.
We even had a had a quick oneon discord the other day.
I'm using this just becauseit's, it's the one that's right,
top of mind.
I mentioned something about aparticular witch shop in town
and their hot foot powder beingexcellent.
Someone else said you know whatis what is hot foot powder?
(11:45):
And a first degree beat me toit and said well, it's, it's
when you want to get rid ofsomeone, right?
Or I think they said, oh, it'swhen you want someone to leave
you alone.
That's what they said and Iright, and I came back in.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I got to remember.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, they said.
You know, they said it's whenit's what you use, when you want
someone to leave you alone.
And I and I had to come back inand say, well, more
specifically, it's when you wantto get rid of something or
someone.
It's not just to get somebodyto leave you alone.
But you know, even writing thatafter the fact, one of the
(12:19):
things that happens when you'rea third is it shuts down the
conversation Because it's ourword, becomes the end word, and
I'm like that's not what Iwanted to have happen.
I would have loved for thediscussion to continue on.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, it's just we're putting a clarification in it,
right, but no, you're right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It's hard for it to not come across as, oh, Lady
Alba just put her foot down andsaid what this thing is and
that's the end of the topic.
No, no, I'm just trying to domy part to educate about the
thing you know.
I mean, even we didn't even getinto you know the fact that
it's not even our tradition Hotfoot powder is.
It's voodoo.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, here's the reason I'm sitting here going uh
, no um but it can be difficult.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And again, this is where traditionalists, you know
we ride that line.
People do think that we tend tobe very black and white in the
thinking and I, and I think themistake is they don't realize
that when we say something likethat, that is what we're doing,
is we're saying well, in mytradition, in our tradition this
(13:30):
is this and this is this.
Other people see it as oh, theyjust shit all over what I think
they're being elitist.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
They know what?
All all the yes and you'resitting back going no.
We're just saying this is whatwe believe.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
We didn't.
We're not, we're not.
Yeah, you can you.
We didn't say you couldn'tbelieve that.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
This is what drives me up the wall is why is it that
, if I believe in something andyou believe, in opposite that
that means I have a negativeconnotation about it.
That's a, a, you know what?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
bravo, because that's a damn good freaking question.
When did that happen?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
when did it become?
If I say a and you say b, thatmeans war.
War, I mean.
Why do I automatically?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
have to right.
You're right.
You're right.
Just because it doesn't meanthat we cannot continue a civil
discussion, it doesn't mean thatwe can't continue to coexist.
It doesn't mean yeah I.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I have no problem.
If you're going to sit there,go.
Hey, this is what we believe inblah, blah, blah.
And this is why.
Okay here, this is what webelieve in while we believe blah
, blah, blah, right, right,where are we similar?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
yeah, nobody threw down a gauntlet, not, it wasn't
a challenge.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
But I see this happening more and more it's
kind of like not trying to getpolitical.
It's like the whole immigrationthing.
If you're not, if you're notfor illegal immigration, you're
against all immigrants.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That ain't you know what?
Abortion?
It's the same thing.
It's the same thing.
You, you, you must pick a side.
Why, why, why?
Why can't I just say this is me, if that's you cool, I didn't
say anything anti.
That's so funny, that's soaccurate though, but it makes no
(15:15):
sense to me yeah and again, andwe can bring this up.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
It's like the whole initiation thing.
Yes, we believe in it, butwe're not setting our hair on
fire because somebody else don't.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
But you're right, but this is where pagans, if we're
being honest, this is where weare behind.
We are behind because in everycity, in just about every town,
you have some sort of group orcollective that is uh shoot, I'm
(15:47):
forgetting the name right now,but basically it's a group where
religious leaders from frommultiple religions come together
every so often and mingle andtalk and and maybe they do a
little panel or a discussion orthey share their individual
(16:07):
views on topics and these look,the christians have been doing
this for a long time.
Jews, muslims, um, all of yourlarge mainstream religions have
been doing this for a while.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
What is it?
The Southern Baptist Convention?
I don't even know.
I mean, they have a big oldconvention each year.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, yeah yeah, you'll have.
You know, lutherans andMethodists and Catholics and
Baptists and Zionists, allsitting down and just kind of
talking.
Yes, I can understand wherepeople might say it's a little
easier.
Well, they all, they allbelieve in the bible.
Yes, yeah, but they're allinterpreting certain components
(16:52):
of it differently.
Yeah, so that's a chance tohave these open discussions.
Pagans are a little behind onthat.
We have not yet gotten to theplace where we sit down with
multiple traditions and just saywe believe this about this, oh,
and we believe this about this,and and just go okay and just
(17:18):
hear it.
Not, no, debating it, not todecide.
Is that right or is it wrong?
Is it law?
Is it canon?
Is who cares?
Just to share?
Speaker 3 (17:29):
that's it no, no, I mean I.
There's been plenty of timesover the years I'm sitting here
teaching classes going.
Here's what I know aboutravenwood and how they do this.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Here's what I know, lord lou and their group that we
gotten, because I think againin that whole idea of a
reclaiming religion, everybody'strying to claim or reclaim, yes
or no, right or wrong, do ordon't, and it's like shut up,
(17:58):
we're never going to be able todo that.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Your first day in class, the first words that come
out of my mouth, I am going toteach you a way.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
A tradition, a way?
Yep Not the way.
Mm, hmm, but we do, we lose it,we lose sight of that, and then
everybody gets into their weirdlittle bickery, whatever's.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Or it goes round and around and around for way too
long and it doesn't seem to End.
Yeah, yeah, it just keeps going.
Like nobody put a timer on itand went okay, five minutes
discuss.
Like nobody put a timer on itand went okay, five minutes
discuss, and that's it At theend of five minutes.
We're not trying to achieveanything.
We're not trying to accomplishanything.
(18:42):
It's it, we're done.
We're done.
Move on to another topic orlet's have lunch.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Whatever it is right.
Yeah, this is stuff that Ithink we do need to do in the
community.
Trust me, I would love to getsome other leaders on here and
have some of these discussions.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Oh God, yes, I mean, we're more than open to that,
because we do.
We want to have thesediscussions without that sense
of it being a dispute or anattack or some backhanded slap
against.
Yeah, that's where it's soproblematic.
We are so quick and when I saywe write pagans to like roll our
(19:22):
eyes at what somebody elsepractices or does, and I'm like,
when did this?
Why?
It's?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
it's tough, it's tough, yeah, I mean I for as
much, as most people aren'tgoing to like it.
Yes, the lesson of treatingothers as you want to be treated
is a quite helpful thing.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
It reminds you that people believe just as much in
what they believe as you do.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, and I mean we don't.
It's not up to us, it's not upto us to convince, to sway, to
try to infringe.
All we can do is just say thatis someone else's tradition,
that's it, that's all there isto it.
(20:09):
But it does become a challenge,even within a group setting.
I mean, I've seen over my yearsat Life Temple write the whys.
Someone says well, you shoulddo blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Why?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Why.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Mm-hmm, and most of the time, whether or not there
is a why to back it updetermines how valid we find
that information, then yes, yeah, yeah, yes, I mean again the
why behind everything'simportant it is it really is um
there.
We, we can't, we can't disputethat there is yeah there's a lot
(20:47):
of need behind the why, butthis is good though.
This is a great, I hope, eyeopener and discussion builder.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
My point here is it can be done.
We've been involved in this.
We've involved with othertemples that do completely
different than us yeah.
All right, it is capable, andso, if you just got to remember,
you need to stay on your sideof the fence yeah, well it's.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Look, I mean, when I go to another group's ritual,
I'm just here for the ride.
Yeah, I mean, at that point I Ilook at it this way I go, this
is not my car and I am not inthe driver's seat, nope.
And so if this person decidesto take a left on main street
(21:39):
when I think they should havetaken a right, well, I guess
we're going around the block,guys, because I have no control
over what's happening and it'snot my place.
It is not my place at all, to.
I'm in their house.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, yeah, you're in their circle yeah, yeah, yeah,
you're in their circle.
Yeah, I'm a guest, you'reexpecting representation in
someone else's circle.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, no, what, really yeah.
So I'm just here for the rideand that's it.
And I mean I will always try tohave an intelligent discussion
after the fact, especially ifthere's something I'm unfamiliar
with, to say, well, why did youdo it that way or what is that?
Speaker 3 (22:21):
you know, and I've never seen that before, and
maybe I'll get an answer well,what's surprising is is how many
times you get those questionsand then you start going back
and looking at your owntradition yes, yes, and, mind
you, for a lot of our elders,that's how they form their
circles in the first place yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Because they were doing something.
Then they saw another group dosomething and they went wait,
that's a better idea.
Yeah, and they altered theirown material.
And I mean, do we then pointfingers and go, oh, you stole
that from the Gardnerians or youborrowed that from the?
I don't know.
None of us knows with a hundredpercent certainty all right,
(23:02):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
When it comes to witchcraft, placing cultural
appropriation on it is stupid.
There's no way idea.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
We have no way of knowing if it's right or if it's
wrong by any measure ofantiquity.
So okay, okay, if that seems towork better, then you make a
change.
Where you want to be cautiousis that you're not doing it just
because you saw it right like,oh, we just got back from
(23:29):
so-and-so's ritual and now we'regonna rewrite everything.
No, no, no, hang on, hang on.
You know, maybe take a stepback and analyze it first and
give it some time before youstart like rewriting a lecture
series, because of one thing.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Right, yeah, huh, anything else.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
No.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I think that's it.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Let's go get coffee Coffee.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Peg and Coffee Talk is broughtto you by Life Temple and
Seminary.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andReddit.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing pyres.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till
morning breaks.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till
morning.
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