September 17, 2025 • 21 mins
The threefold law—the belief that whatever energy you put out returns to you three times over—has been a cornerstone teaching in modern witchcraft for decades. But does it actually make sense, or is it holding practitioners back?
This candid conversation dissects the origin and purpose of the threefold law, tracing its development as an ethical framework during witchcraft's push for legitimacy in the 90s. We explore how it differs from karma and question whether either concept reflects reality. Through real-world examples we challenge the system of cosmic justice.
Could this belief be creating self-fulfilling prophecies of failure or unintended consequences? We suggest a more empowering interpretation. This episode offers a refreshing perspective on moving beyond simplistic moral rules toward a more nuanced understanding of magical responsibility. Follow us on social media to continue the conversation about this and other thought-provoking topics in modern paganism.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Oh goodness the threefold law, the law of return
.
Do you actually believe it?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
oh geez, okay, well, let's all right.
So, first off, let's start withthe definition.
Right, let's start with howmost people see it, right.
Right, most people in crafthave a belief that if you do
something anything good or bad,right or wrong whatever you do
(00:55):
will come back to you threefoldright, and this comes largely
from the read right right.
This is.
This is the origin point so faras I know, and the fact that we
are obsessed with threes right,everything in craft has a
triple aspect, or most thingsright.
(01:20):
So do we believe it All right?
First off, how is thisdifferent from karma?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I'm not exactly sure, right.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Is it different from karma?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I hear some people say it is and other people don't
.
The main difference I hearabout the difference between the
threefold law and karma iskarma follows you from one
lifetime to another, where thethreefold law ends upon death
okay, but it still, to me, meansthat there is a universal or
(01:58):
spiritual entity being taken.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Keep keeping score referee yes, referee is a great
god of referees is sitting upthere taking score, deciding
what is what did.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
They did that actually was a good deed that
they did, or well, and that's myissue was that a bad?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
date.
That's my issue is I'm like Ipersonally, yeah, I do not
believe in karma.
I not in the way that manypeople view it right, so I have
a really hard time thinking thatthere's some force that is
(02:49):
going to reverberate my energiesback to me in multiple ways
like that.
Do I believe it could be a onefor one?
Yes, Really.
To an extent.
Yes, because my thought processis if I put something out there
(03:15):
and there is enough strength,conviction, energy that I am
investing into it, will there bea return of some sort on that
investment?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
yes, yes, I believe that right now we call those
spells yeah and it's to methat's part of faith.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Right, how could we not believe that there would be
an investment, a return of somesort?
Now, I'm not saying that thatreturn is always going to be
exactly what we want it to be,you know.
I'm not saying it's going to bean identical again, a one for
one sort of balance sheet, but Ido think there will be an
(04:04):
effect.
Right, there's a cause, there'san effect right what about you?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
when I look at the world and I see these videos
where they talk about theso-called instant karma, what I
see is less instant karma andmore.
I'm more upset and I'm notreally paying attention to
what's going on around me.
Then I do something stupid.
Are you with me?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
You know, it's that guy that speeds along and
doesn't realize there's a copdown the road and gets pulled
over.
Okay, I mean, is it reallykarma?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
No.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Because I hate to be this way.
How many of the businessmenthat you know, but yet they
they're still in business.
They still have much.
Where's the karma?
Where do you see what I'msaying?
Though, when I see it in life?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I don't see it quite well, let's, let's break it down
like anything else.
I mean, first of all, karma isan eastern philosophy, right,
right, and it's a lovely idea.
But what is it?
It's a way to keep people inline.
Yeah, it's just a belief or asystem to make you think before
you act and to hold youaccountable for those actions.
(05:13):
That's a great idea I love thisidea right, but it's morphed and
it's morphed and a lot of thenew agey.
This is where I get a little.
The new agey belief is oh, if Ido good things, good will
always come back to me.
It's so fruity, it's so fluffyand it's so naive.
(05:36):
That it makes no sense Peoplejust sort of use it as like this
blanketed idea of alwaysputting good out and always
getting good back, and I'm likethat's just not realistic.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And these are also the people who are the most
likely to be devastated.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
When it all blows up in their face.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Or when something bad happens.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Yeah, Because they're not paired for actual reality.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right and therein lies the problem?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
or is this because me and you were raised on the
whole entire belief that, whilewe hope for the best, we prepare
for the worst?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
maybe I also just attribute that to me being a bit
of a pessimist, right?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
you a pessimist?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
no, but being a pessimist also means, yeah, I'm,
I'm realistic about things.
I don't expect that, because Ido something good.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Whatever that means right, that it means I'm gonna
be rewarded I mean that's kindof like okay, I, I do my prayers
in the morning and all this.
Does that mean we get extraviews?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
this is the gold star concept right of craft, this is
what I mean.
And you get a participationtrophy and you get a
participation.
That's just not realistic.
The universe doesn't view goodor bad, no.
So people who believe, if I'malways, I do good, I do good, I
(07:11):
do good, you know that again,there's always going to be that,
that dividend return, whateverit is but we have enough sayings
in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
We've had enough of these stories.
The road to hell.
Hell was paved with goodintentions.
Again, we keep on sitting theretelling people look, sometimes
this dust does not work out,sometimes the ends does not
justify the means, the idea thatthe universe revolves around
(07:50):
the same moral ideas that we do,as human beings, as spiritual
beings is absurd well again toassume that everybody has the
same moral outlook is stupid,that too, um so
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I'm sorry I had.
This is a great.
This is a great story.
Um, very recently, someone Iknow was at the beach a little
summer break and she was on thebeach and she's, by the way, she
is a medical professional.
She was on the beach and therewas a child that had blundered.
(08:18):
She was maybe three or fouryears old and she's also a mom.
She has four kids, all grownand she said that she could hear
the parents calling for theirson and she happened to be over
by like a picnic area and shesaw this little boy and she put
(08:39):
two and two together and she waslike sweetie, I think your
family's looking for you and she, you know, she pointed over and
she's like is that, is that whoyou're with?
Yeah, he nods, okay, he has astick typical little boy right
and he's banging the stick onthe ground.
He's just having a time andshe's trying to coax him to go
(09:03):
back to his family withoutactually, like you know, picking
up this random kid that shedoesn't know.
Right at that moment, he takesthe stick, he whacks the ground
and she goes.
I couldn't believe my eyes.
She's like a swarm of groundwasps comes up out of the ground
(09:26):
.
He hit a nest.
Oh crap, crap.
She being being a nurse, she'slike I thought fast she goes.
I grabbed the closest beachtowel to me.
She's like.
I wrapped this kid up and I ran.
Okay, she got stung 37 times.
(09:51):
She had welts everywhere.
Her face blew up.
Yeah, it was bad Kiddo, not asingle sting.
Cool, right, yeah, and she istrying.
And at this point she just Imean logic, she just took off
running.
What she did was she took offrunning in the direction of his
family.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So now the mom sees this and is like, oh my god, oh
my freaking out.
Okay, the mother's ready tocall the police, thinks her
child is being kidnapped, it's awhole thing.
And there's angela going no, no, no, no, no, no, let me, no,
hang on, hang on.
(10:32):
And and now her husband comesrunning because he's like what
is going on and she's like itwas a shit storm right, and
she's like it took 20 minutes toexplain to this woman I'm not
trying to kidnap your child.
Here's what happened right, andhere's the reason the swollen
(10:52):
face right and now the mother islooking at her, going oh my god
, your face.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And she's like yeah yeah, I may need some drugs all
this.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Fortunately, her husband's a pharmacist.
She was all right, all of thisright because she was doing a
good thing yes where's the, youknow where's the return there?
where's the anything.
Now, she's a good-naturedperson, she's an easygoing
(11:23):
person.
She didn't think of it asanything.
She, she, she attributed noretribution, no karma, nothing.
She was just like.
You know what it happens.
Good news is that kid didn'tget stung.
I'll be fine.
I've been on a lot of benadryland that's it.
That's it.
It.
You know, and I mean you knowsomeone else might go.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Oh, she's, that's payback for something she did no
, it's not you know, did youreally break your arm because
you broke your mom's lamp, right?
I just really it's coincidence.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Now at the same token one could say well, the kid had
good karma right, but she wasthere yeah, you know he didn't
get stung, he's fine.
But what would have happened ifshe hadn't been there and he
hit that wasp's nest?
Right he could have died hecould have so a lot of things to
to you know, to take intoaccount.
(12:19):
But yeah, now there's somethingelse that that I love in in the
threefold conversation thatI've always been a little bit
fascinated with all right if youpoint a finger at someone else,
three fingers point back at you.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Is that not part of our threefold system?
Is that not a betterillustration?
I?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
think that is more of a better illustration.
We ourselves are more of areflection of what we're doing
than exactly anything else?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
exactly so, the idea being, before you pass a
judgment, talk shit, try to bendanother's will.
Right, do any of these things?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
stop and look in the direction you're pointing and
realize, yeah, there's threefingers pointing back at you
well, I find it amazing thatnobody, ever that most of the
people that do this never stopand goes.
But what if it was me?
What if I was that personthat's at the center of all of
this, that somebody's aiming alltheir malice and at me?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
absolutely because everybody's gun ho until it's
them absolutely, and I thinkthat that's where you know again
, karma had a.
There's a good concept there interms of stop and take a minute
and think about.
(13:54):
You're not perfect no andwhatever your issue is with
someone else, somebody elsemight have the same issue with
you.
I mean, there's so manyvariables there, so I yeah there
.
The.
The threefold law, I believe,was always meant to create check
(14:14):
and balance, and the reality isyou can't have witches running
around doing whatever they want.
No, and the threefold lawbecame the antidote, if you will
, to any harm.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
None doest thou will, because it's that doest thou
will part that gets people introuble well and the majority of
times people wind up, but onthe other hand, I do see people
use that as a hammer to beatpeople into some submission and
which is not what it was meantto do.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
No, but also think about the origin, right, we had
guys like alistair Crowleyrunning around with impunity,
right, basically going dowhatever you want to do.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
And-.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
The whole of the law.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Trust me, I understand.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And then you had people like Doreen Valiente and
some of Gardner know offshootsand and other people within
other founding members.
If you will going wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
That's a bad idea right, because I remember the
whole 90s we were.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We were unethical people and we had yeah there had
to be a way if we were going tobe taken seriously as a faith
and as a religion.
We couldn't just shrug ourshoulders and go well, yeah, we
do whatever we want.
We don't have a moral code.
That's a problem societally.
Now it may not be a problem forthe individual, but from a
(15:44):
societal standpoint that made usa liability to some people yeah
to a lot of people.
You know other faiths that madeus who.
What do you mean?
There's no compass here.
You know what do you mean butwe had compasses.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
It's just different kind of company.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
It's just different kind yeah, no, mine faces north,
thanks, but yeah like we didn't, but it was totally different.
We didn't see it the same way.
So this was the yes.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
This is why in the world during the 90s, everybody
just talks about ethics andmorals.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And I mean it was all .
And we still have so manypeople that harp on the
threefold law and I'm like, soagain, it makes me say, now,
here's the bigger thing that Ithink is important.
Me say, now, here's the biggerthing that I think is important.
If you're, if you're a witch,if you are contemplating a
(16:38):
magical working, if you're inthe middle of a magical working,
if your mind wanders to theidea that whatever you're about
to do is going to come back andsmack you like a dump truck,
three times harder.
It just did you are fucked rightwhy would you even want that
thought to invade your workingor even come close to it?
(17:01):
Yes, that causes a lot ofstress and a lot of anxiety for
a lot of mages, that's not goodand it doesn't help the spell at
all.
No, you are not supposed toenter into a working with fear,
anxiety or doubt.
Hay, yeah, that's, yeah, thatand and but yet.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
But yet we've created this what we've made it part of
the damn spells now.
Oh it to the harm none and soso you're sticking that thought
already in there that it couldpossibly.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Bad idea.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Just saying Bad idea.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, I remember having that thought in my head.
I remember being apprehensiveor concerned, or, and guess what
?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
What was the really like?
The first time you realizedthat was all wrong and you had
you could?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
you could.
It took I I am embarrassed tosay it took me longer than it
should have to really come toterms with that and to
understand it, because it usedto be look, my 20s were a mess,
I mean absolute tragedy.
And I wonder, I genuinelywonder, how much of that was my
own doing, because I had thatfear instilled in my workings.
(18:31):
I really question that.
Now I'm like, oh boy, I didthat.
I created a boomerang wherethere shouldn't have been one.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
At all.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And now I think back and I go oi, I mean, yeah, there
shouldn't have been one at all.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And now I think back and I go oh, I mean yeah,
because because, again, by thetime you get done, by the time
you've realized how muchpsychology and and behavioral
science we actually learn,sitting there, and, I'm sorry,
manipulating your co-workers andother people around you becomes
way too easy.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
And it does and it.
But I think, I think that thething is, if we train our
initiates, well, yes, and wetrain ethics and morals and we
give people sound advice thatallows them to create their own
(19:24):
moral compass, right then thereis no concern for this, no, we
don't have to worry about it andwe can let the threefold law
kind of just be be a nice littlenice poem.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's a nice poem.
It's a nice, it's a nice goldenrule.
If we could ever achieve that.
But absolutely right now, whereit's not nowhere close
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And and the other thing is please, please, please,
please, don't overlap the ideaof the triple goddess and the
threefold law.
Oh god, no, they are not thesame thing right sometimes
people see the fates and thethree faces of the and they
think of it in those terms andI'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
They are separate, they aretotally different.
(20:12):
You're mixing apples andcrocodiles, right?
You're not even in fruitanymore.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
No, yeah, no, but just because the numbers match
up.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
But that's what we do .
We like patterns, we lovepatterns.
Yeah, patterns are good peoplefind patterns and then they
associate them to one anotherand it's like stop it.
That doesn't work the same waythere's a face on mars.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
It's not a pattern.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, you know you know what I would like to
manifest, threefold right nowcoffee yeah thanks for Join us
next week for another episode.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
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Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
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Speaker 4 (21:02):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire, youtube and Reddit metill morning breaks, and so it
is the end of our days, so walkwith me till morning.
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Oh goodness the threefold law, the law of return
.
Do you actually believe it?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
oh geez, okay, well, let's all right.
So, first off, let's start withthe definition.
Right, let's start with howmost people see it, right.
Right, most people in crafthave a belief that if you do
something anything good or bad,right or wrong whatever you do
(00:55):
will come back to you threefoldright, and this comes largely
from the read right right.
This is.
This is the origin point so faras I know, and the fact that we
are obsessed with threes right,everything in craft has a
triple aspect, or most thingsright.
(01:20):
So do we believe it All right?
First off, how is thisdifferent from karma?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I'm not exactly sure, right.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Is it different from karma?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I hear some people say it is and other people don't
.
The main difference I hearabout the difference between the
threefold law and karma iskarma follows you from one
lifetime to another, where thethreefold law ends upon death
okay, but it still, to me, meansthat there is a universal or
(01:58):
spiritual entity being taken.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Keep keeping score referee yes, referee is a great
god of referees is sitting upthere taking score, deciding
what is what did.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
They did that actually was a good deed that
they did, or well, and that's myissue was that a bad?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
date.
That's my issue is I'm like Ipersonally, yeah, I do not
believe in karma.
I not in the way that manypeople view it right, so I have
a really hard time thinking thatthere's some force that is
(02:49):
going to reverberate my energiesback to me in multiple ways
like that.
Do I believe it could be a onefor one?
Yes, Really.
To an extent.
Yes, because my thought processis if I put something out there
(03:15):
and there is enough strength,conviction, energy that I am
investing into it, will there bea return of some sort on that
investment?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
yes, yes, I believe that right now we call those
spells yeah and it's to methat's part of faith.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Right, how could we not believe that there would be
an investment, a return of somesort?
Now, I'm not saying that thatreturn is always going to be
exactly what we want it to be,you know.
I'm not saying it's going to bean identical again, a one for
one sort of balance sheet, but Ido think there will be an
(04:04):
effect.
Right, there's a cause, there'san effect right what about you?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
when I look at the world and I see these videos
where they talk about theso-called instant karma, what I
see is less instant karma andmore.
I'm more upset and I'm notreally paying attention to
what's going on around me.
Then I do something stupid.
Are you with me?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
You know, it's that guy that speeds along and
doesn't realize there's a copdown the road and gets pulled
over.
Okay, I mean, is it reallykarma?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
No.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Because I hate to be this way.
How many of the businessmenthat you know, but yet they
they're still in business.
They still have much.
Where's the karma?
Where do you see what I'msaying?
Though, when I see it in life?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I don't see it quite well, let's, let's break it down
like anything else.
I mean, first of all, karma isan eastern philosophy, right,
right, and it's a lovely idea.
But what is it?
It's a way to keep people inline.
Yeah, it's just a belief or asystem to make you think before
you act and to hold youaccountable for those actions.
(05:13):
That's a great idea I love thisidea right, but it's morphed and
it's morphed and a lot of thenew agey.
This is where I get a little.
The new agey belief is oh, if Ido good things, good will
always come back to me.
It's so fruity, it's so fluffyand it's so naive.
(05:36):
That it makes no sense Peoplejust sort of use it as like this
blanketed idea of alwaysputting good out and always
getting good back, and I'm likethat's just not realistic.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And these are also the people who are the most
likely to be devastated.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
When it all blows up in their face.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Or when something bad happens.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Yeah, Because they're not paired for actual reality.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right and therein lies the problem?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
or is this because me and you were raised on the
whole entire belief that, whilewe hope for the best, we prepare
for the worst?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
maybe I also just attribute that to me being a bit
of a pessimist, right?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
you a pessimist?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
no, but being a pessimist also means, yeah, I'm,
I'm realistic about things.
I don't expect that, because Ido something good.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Whatever that means right, that it means I'm gonna
be rewarded I mean that's kindof like okay, I, I do my prayers
in the morning and all this.
Does that mean we get extraviews?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
this is the gold star concept right of craft, this is
what I mean.
And you get a participationtrophy and you get a
participation.
That's just not realistic.
The universe doesn't view goodor bad, no.
So people who believe, if I'malways, I do good, I do good, I
(07:11):
do good, you know that again,there's always going to be that,
that dividend return, whateverit is but we have enough sayings
in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
We've had enough of these stories.
The road to hell.
Hell was paved with goodintentions.
Again, we keep on sitting theretelling people look, sometimes
this dust does not work out,sometimes the ends does not
justify the means, the idea thatthe universe revolves around
(07:50):
the same moral ideas that we do,as human beings, as spiritual
beings is absurd well again toassume that everybody has the
same moral outlook is stupid,that too, um so
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I'm sorry I had.
This is a great.
This is a great story.
Um, very recently, someone Iknow was at the beach a little
summer break and she was on thebeach and she's, by the way, she
is a medical professional.
She was on the beach and therewas a child that had blundered.
(08:18):
She was maybe three or fouryears old and she's also a mom.
She has four kids, all grownand she said that she could hear
the parents calling for theirson and she happened to be over
by like a picnic area and shesaw this little boy and she put
(08:39):
two and two together and she waslike sweetie, I think your
family's looking for you and she, you know, she pointed over and
she's like is that, is that whoyou're with?
Yeah, he nods, okay, he has astick typical little boy right
and he's banging the stick onthe ground.
He's just having a time andshe's trying to coax him to go
(09:03):
back to his family withoutactually, like you know, picking
up this random kid that shedoesn't know.
Right at that moment, he takesthe stick, he whacks the ground
and she goes.
I couldn't believe my eyes.
She's like a swarm of groundwasps comes up out of the ground
(09:26):
.
He hit a nest.
Oh crap, crap.
She being being a nurse, she'slike I thought fast she goes.
I grabbed the closest beachtowel to me.
She's like.
I wrapped this kid up and I ran.
Okay, she got stung 37 times.
(09:51):
She had welts everywhere.
Her face blew up.
Yeah, it was bad Kiddo, not asingle sting.
Cool, right, yeah, and she istrying.
And at this point she just Imean logic, she just took off
running.
What she did was she took offrunning in the direction of his
family.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So now the mom sees this and is like, oh my god, oh
my freaking out.
Okay, the mother's ready tocall the police, thinks her
child is being kidnapped, it's awhole thing.
And there's angela going no, no, no, no, no, no, let me, no,
hang on, hang on.
(10:32):
And and now her husband comesrunning because he's like what
is going on and she's like itwas a shit storm right, and
she's like it took 20 minutes toexplain to this woman I'm not
trying to kidnap your child.
Here's what happened right, andhere's the reason the swollen
(10:52):
face right and now the mother islooking at her, going oh my god
, your face.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And she's like yeah yeah, I may need some drugs all
this.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Fortunately, her husband's a pharmacist.
She was all right, all of thisright because she was doing a
good thing yes where's the, youknow where's the return there?
where's the anything.
Now, she's a good-naturedperson, she's an easygoing
(11:23):
person.
She didn't think of it asanything.
She, she, she attributed noretribution, no karma, nothing.
She was just like.
You know what it happens.
Good news is that kid didn'tget stung.
I'll be fine.
I've been on a lot of benadryland that's it.
That's it.
It.
You know, and I mean you knowsomeone else might go.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Oh, she's, that's payback for something she did no
, it's not you know, did youreally break your arm because
you broke your mom's lamp, right?
I just really it's coincidence.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Now at the same token one could say well, the kid had
good karma right, but she wasthere yeah, you know he didn't
get stung, he's fine.
But what would have happened ifshe hadn't been there and he
hit that wasp's nest?
Right he could have died hecould have so a lot of things to
to you know, to take intoaccount.
(12:19):
But yeah, now there's somethingelse that that I love in in the
threefold conversation thatI've always been a little bit
fascinated with all right if youpoint a finger at someone else,
three fingers point back at you.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Is that not part of our threefold system?
Is that not a betterillustration?
I?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
think that is more of a better illustration.
We ourselves are more of areflection of what we're doing
than exactly anything else?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
exactly so, the idea being, before you pass a
judgment, talk shit, try to bendanother's will.
Right, do any of these things?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
stop and look in the direction you're pointing and
realize, yeah, there's threefingers pointing back at you
well, I find it amazing thatnobody, ever that most of the
people that do this never stopand goes.
But what if it was me?
What if I was that personthat's at the center of all of
this, that somebody's aiming alltheir malice and at me?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
absolutely because everybody's gun ho until it's
them absolutely, and I thinkthat that's where you know again
, karma had a.
There's a good concept there interms of stop and take a minute
and think about.
(13:54):
You're not perfect no andwhatever your issue is with
someone else, somebody elsemight have the same issue with
you.
I mean, there's so manyvariables there, so I yeah there
.
The.
The threefold law, I believe,was always meant to create check
(14:14):
and balance, and the reality isyou can't have witches running
around doing whatever they want.
No, and the threefold lawbecame the antidote, if you will
, to any harm.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
None doest thou will, because it's that doest thou
will part that gets people introuble well and the majority of
times people wind up, but onthe other hand, I do see people
use that as a hammer to beatpeople into some submission and
which is not what it was meantto do.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
No, but also think about the origin, right, we had
guys like alistair Crowleyrunning around with impunity,
right, basically going dowhatever you want to do.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
And-.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
The whole of the law.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Trust me, I understand.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And then you had people like Doreen Valiente and
some of Gardner know offshootsand and other people within
other founding members.
If you will going wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
That's a bad idea right, because I remember the
whole 90s we were.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We were unethical people and we had yeah there had
to be a way if we were going tobe taken seriously as a faith
and as a religion.
We couldn't just shrug ourshoulders and go well, yeah, we
do whatever we want.
We don't have a moral code.
That's a problem societally.
Now it may not be a problem forthe individual, but from a
(15:44):
societal standpoint that made usa liability to some people yeah
to a lot of people.
You know other faiths that madeus who.
What do you mean?
There's no compass here.
You know what do you mean butwe had compasses.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
It's just different kind of company.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
It's just different kind yeah, no, mine faces north,
thanks, but yeah like we didn't, but it was totally different.
We didn't see it the same way.
So this was the yes.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
This is why in the world during the 90s, everybody
just talks about ethics andmorals.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And I mean it was all .
And we still have so manypeople that harp on the
threefold law and I'm like, soagain, it makes me say, now,
here's the bigger thing that Ithink is important.
Me say, now, here's the biggerthing that I think is important.
If you're, if you're a witch,if you are contemplating a
(16:38):
magical working, if you're inthe middle of a magical working,
if your mind wanders to theidea that whatever you're about
to do is going to come back andsmack you like a dump truck,
three times harder.
It just did you are fucked rightwhy would you even want that
thought to invade your workingor even come close to it?
(17:01):
Yes, that causes a lot ofstress and a lot of anxiety for
a lot of mages, that's not goodand it doesn't help the spell at
all.
No, you are not supposed toenter into a working with fear,
anxiety or doubt.
Hay, yeah, that's, yeah, thatand and but yet.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
But yet we've created this what we've made it part of
the damn spells now.
Oh it to the harm none and soso you're sticking that thought
already in there that it couldpossibly.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Bad idea.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Just saying Bad idea.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, I remember having that thought in my head.
I remember being apprehensiveor concerned, or, and guess what
?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
What was the really like?
The first time you realizedthat was all wrong and you had
you could?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
you could.
It took I I am embarrassed tosay it took me longer than it
should have to really come toterms with that and to
understand it, because it usedto be look, my 20s were a mess,
I mean absolute tragedy.
And I wonder, I genuinelywonder, how much of that was my
own doing, because I had thatfear instilled in my workings.
(18:31):
I really question that.
Now I'm like, oh boy, I didthat.
I created a boomerang wherethere shouldn't have been one.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
At all.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And now I think back and I go oi, I mean, yeah, there
shouldn't have been one at all.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And now I think back and I go oh, I mean yeah,
because because, again, by thetime you get done, by the time
you've realized how muchpsychology and and behavioral
science we actually learn,sitting there, and, I'm sorry,
manipulating your co-workers andother people around you becomes
way too easy.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
And it does and it.
But I think, I think that thething is, if we train our
initiates, well, yes, and wetrain ethics and morals and we
give people sound advice thatallows them to create their own
(19:24):
moral compass, right then thereis no concern for this, no, we
don't have to worry about it andwe can let the threefold law
kind of just be be a nice littlenice poem.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's a nice poem.
It's a nice, it's a nice goldenrule.
If we could ever achieve that.
But absolutely right now, whereit's not nowhere close
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And and the other thing is please, please, please,
please, don't overlap the ideaof the triple goddess and the
threefold law.
Oh god, no, they are not thesame thing right sometimes
people see the fates and thethree faces of the and they
think of it in those terms andI'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
They are separate, they aretotally different.
(20:12):
You're mixing apples andcrocodiles, right?
You're not even in fruitanymore.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
No, yeah, no, but just because the numbers match
up.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
But that's what we do .
We like patterns, we lovepatterns.
Yeah, patterns are good peoplefind patterns and then they
associate them to one anotherand it's like stop it.
That doesn't work the same waythere's a face on mars.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
It's not a pattern.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, you know you know what I would like to
manifest, threefold right nowcoffee yeah thanks for Join us
next week for another episode.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple
and Seminary.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andReddit.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire, youtube and Reddit metill morning breaks, and so it
is the end of our days, so walkwith me till morning.
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