October 22, 2025 • 20 mins
We open listener mail for a simple question that's really not simple: how do you leave Christianity without carrying the fear of hell everywhere you go? We discuss that liberation isn’t just a belief shift; it’s a nervous system retraining.
We talk about the long shadow of early conditioning and why old fears flare at night when the mind runs hot. You’ll hear the tools that actually help: meditation, journaling to map triggers, and honest conversations that reality-test inherited stories. We also share what changed for us over decades. If you’re navigating a shift from Christian fear to pagan freedom, or you simply want peace with the unknown, this conversation offers a clear path forward, one breath and one belief at a time.
If this resonated, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
Welcome to Pegging Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content, pleaseconsider donating and following
our socials.
So we've got a little bit of fanmail.
Ooh, we got fan mail.
We got fan mail.
We got fan.
Which by the way, if you go toBuzzsprout.com, you can send us
your own fan mail.
Please, Dude.
This comes from Elmira, NewYork.
(00:39):
Just wanted to say hi.
I love your podcast.
It's a part of my morning ritualwith my hot cup of tea.
I've been recently on a path ofmy own spiritual awakening, and
for someone who used to identifyas a Christian, how would you
work to overcome theoverwhelming fear of going to
hell for all eternity?
You know, that is a deep-rootedIt really is a deep-rooted
(01:02):
question.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
It it because again, you're if you're raised
Christian, you know, like wewere, you were taught this from
day one.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Well, I think this is something that a lot of
pagans deal with because a lotof us, most of the ones that
I've come across, we've all comefrom some type of Christian
background.
Right.
Catholic, Baptist, that doesn'tmatter.
SPEAKER_02 (01:25):
But again, this is but this was drilled into your
head as a kid.
Right.
You you you do a bad thing, yougo to hell.
Right.
You know, and I I'm I'm sorry, Ijust I cannot believe in a God
that would do that.
You know, hey, I'm gonna giveyou one chance to get this
right, and I already know you'regonna get it wrong, so I've
created you just to go to hell.
Right.
(01:46):
It's basically the stunt I getoff of it.
Now I understand that's theargument, but we're talking
about that feeling.
Yeah, it's it's that we'retalking about that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
It is it is a fear, it is a real fear that because
I'm all of a sudden followingthis path that's not
Christianity, God's gonna punishme.
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
You know, I still I went through kind of that when I
converted to the pagan path.
And well, I don't even know if Ireally converted, it just sort
of happened with me.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
But uh actually, I think it's a little bit easier
if it just happens.
I think it is too.
All right, because again, Inever really had that problem.
Right.
All right, to be quite honestwith you, because well, you
know, I didn't I didn'tnecessarily believe in
Christianity as a kid.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
There was just too many things that didn't see I
did, even though I recognized alot of those inconsistencies and
a lot of discrepancies and Ijust I couldn't do it.
I mean still believed in it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
I mean, because you still have the I st they still
won't answer the question.
Where did the other religionscome from?
SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Right.
How did the dinosaurs fit intothis?
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
How did yeah, where where where did all this other
stuff that actually happens?
Right.
You know, and even then, I hateto be this way.
It wasn't like Christianscreated society or even the
Jewish community.
Right.
Most of them were created bypagans.
Babylon was pagan, Rome waspagan.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
So but again, back to the question, I mean, it's
it's just something that I thinkthe longer you're on the path
and depending on your studies,yeah, and depending on how well
you once you start working outwhere in the world you're
getting your guilt from and howto stop it, those fears start to
(03:40):
go away.
Right.
I was I was gonna say it dependson your meditations, right?
Because for us, meditation isprobably one of the best ways to
deal with that stuff, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
It is a great it is a great personal therapy
session.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
It really is.
It really is.
So again, just make sure you'vegot a good support, right?
Um but yeah, that's a great wayto work through it.
Because like you said, you gottaget to the root of the problem.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
Right, because again, at the end of it, sin is
nothing but guilt.
unknown (04:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:09):
You feel guilty for doing something.
Right.
Now what you gotta ask yourselfis why do you feel guilty about
doing that action?
Once you solve that problem,things seem to work themselves
out a whole lot easier.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Well, and you have to also realize guilt guilt was
created to maintain order.
Order, yes, and to keep peoplein line.
It is the it is the stick versusthe kick.
So once you realize that, then Ithink that that also makes it
(04:46):
easier to work through and toget past this this fear that, oh
God, I'm gonna go to hell.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
Well, rationally, we can do this.
I mean, rational with ourrational mind, way we're talking
right now in the whole wholenine yards, it's a little bit
different when you are sittingthere in the middle of the
night, you know, can't sleep,tossing and turning, and you
have all these random thoughtsin your head.
Right.
You're you're you're alone withyour thoughts.
And your mind's just racing.
Racing.
(05:13):
Those fears will come back up.
Oh, yeah.
All right, because again,there's still a part of you,
this is this was told to yousince you were a kid.
So it's hard not to.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Well, and I think it also depends on how long how
long you were part of thatreligion.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
It is to me, this that this is the same thing as
when we refer to people as heand she automatically.
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (05:40):
We're we're basing it on patterns of behavior and
certain visual cues to let usknow which one to use at the
time.
All right.
And I'm not trying to bring thisin there, but hence the reason
misgendering happens all thefreaking time.
Right.
Because it's not somethingconscious we necessarily always
do.
(06:00):
Right.
It's something like blinking.
We can control it sometimes,sometimes we can.
This is the same thing withfeeling this.
I'm going to go to hell.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Are you with me?
I am, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's it's the point is, is it'sbeen so ingrained.
Ingrained.
The I think the longer you werea Christian, the harder it is to
get past that.
Yes.
If you left the church when youwere in your early teens, it
might not be such a big deal toget past that.
If you left in your 20s or your30s, then you're definitely
(06:34):
going to have an issue.
SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
Yeah.
I mean, I I can see where peoplethat are in their 40s and 50s
will have a whole lot moreproblems versus because we've
seen that anyway when teachingpeople, trying to get them to
break those some of them.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
I was gonna say we see it all the time when people
come to us for classes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
So, um, but yeah, I think those are all things that
aid or contribute to thedifficulty level.
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Right.
So I mean, we're trying to takesome, you know, other things
into account here on how hardit's gonna be to absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
It's not gonna be, okay, can I just focus on this
one thought and get to the rootof it?
SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
No, and there's multiple thoughts attached to
it.
I mean, I I don't know how toexplain this.
This whole fear of going tohell, yeah, it's it's it's it's
laced in your behavior, yourthoughts, and you know, and
especially in Christianity,because they say you can go to
hell just for thinking about anact just as much as doing an
act.
That one sin is just as bad asthe other.
(07:34):
Yeah, one sin is just as bad asthe other, yes.
And I don't that makes no senseto me.
So just because I think abouthaving premarital sex with some
that you're you're already asinner.
Right.
You're already going to hell.
Don't do that.
I mean, at some point oranother, somebody's always gonna
you're gonna turn around at somepoint and go, hmm, nice car.
(07:55):
Uh technically, you just coveredyour neighbor's property, yeah.
Property.
So when you're sitting there andyou're meditating, you start to
see those things, when you'restarting to see, I mean, just
like what we talk about with theum Wicca, the threefold law,
yeah.
How when you actually start tosit there and think about it,
how absurd it is to try to livethat way because you can never
(08:17):
unhurt anyone.
Right.
What I saw in the Christiancommunity and all that is no
matter what in the world you do,we're all going to hell because
we all sin.
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Well, and that's part of the core teaching of
Christianity is that we are allsinners.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Right.
I mean, at the end of the day,we're all sinners.
You're going to die in sin, soit means you're going to go to
hell.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
You know, that's you know, that's something that I
never truly understood.
You you've been saved.
Supposedly.
But we're still sinners.
But you're still still sinners.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
So yeah, that's that's that's that's uh and I'm
I'm sure some Christian willhear this and go, oh no, no, no,
I'll explain this, blah, blah,blah.
Please do.
Please do.
Because that don't make no senseto me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
You know, I was a big part of the church growing
up and into my, you know, intomy late teens, early twenties.
I understand where that comesfrom, but it makes no sense to
me.
SPEAKER_02 (09:09):
I have an easier time with the concept of
somebody going to hell and beingpunished than someone going to
heaven.
Really?
The Christian heaven I wasexplained to did not seem like
anything I wanted to do.
Not for all eternity.
I do not want to be in church24-7 for the rest of eternity.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
No, and that's pretty much it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
I mean, that's literally what I was told for
Christianity is heaven isnowhere where you go and you
just worship God all day.
Right.
All time, nothing, you don'tstop.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
What's the you know, I I hate to be this way.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
But for some people, that's that's the dream.
That's the idea.
That's that's the goal.
SPEAKER_02 (09:51):
I don't get it.
That just does not seem likeyou're not doing anything,
you're just worshiping andpraying.
Right.
It seems like the afterlifewould have a little bit more to
it than Jen, hey, you're gonnadie and go to church for all of
that.
There's your reward.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
No, it's I I get where you're coming from.
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
They don't have a problem with that, but they
people worry about going tohell.
SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
Well, again, they're you're made to fear it to keep
you in line.
Line.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
I I know.
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
It it it's the whole dogma and yeah, and heaven,
heaven is the ultimate rewardfor that.
For following orders, if youwill.
Right.
So, you know, when it comes downto it, that's all it is.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
In my opinion, anyway.
And I think in yours that mostof the hell are just the
constructs.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
Again, the whole heaven and hell thing, it is a
construct to me, and they're notreal.
That they're they're just toolsthat religions use to control
the population.
Right.
Because again, we have tocontrol our population.
If not, we're sure we do, yeah.
I mean, you you have to stopcrime.
You can't just let people goaround just raping the people
(11:05):
non No, you can't.
So you have to do some of thisto some extent, and I understand
that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
And then um and ultimately it's not uh well, I
say it's not a bad way to do it.
I mean, it works.
Well, it brought us to where weare today.
SPEAKER_02 (11:20):
Yes, the system worked well enough to get us to
to this point.
Absolutely.
Does that make sense?
So I'm not faulting the systemthat they were using because
again, it wasn't just theChristians, a lot of religions
do this, right?
You know, uh because you whatyou got the whole karma thing
and it's and it's used basicallyabout the same way that they do.
(11:41):
It is, yeah.
So when did you how bad was yourfear once you started to
convert?
Because you've never, I meanwe've been married for 30
something years now, I believe.
It's not anything.
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
That's not something we've ever talked about.
No, we haven't.
Um for me, it was and you know,for the longest time I held on.
I well, I claimed that I held onto a lot of my Christian
beliefs.
Yeah.
Even starting on this path.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
And well, even to this day, you still claim you
still hold on to a lot ofChristian beliefs.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Not like I used to.
All right.
Um I I've pretty they're prettymuch gone out the window.
There's there's I don't know, Iguess there's some aspects that
maybe I incorporate, but it'snot a lot.
But for me, the idea of hell, itI had to come to terms with what
(12:39):
it was.
And it was a it was a quite ajourney to to get to the point
to realize okay, hell's aconstruct.
Yeah.
Hell hell and guilt were allthings, and the fear were all
things done to keep me in somesemblance of the union, if you
(13:00):
will.
Yeah.
So it was it was a challenge.
But for me, it wasn't a bigchallenge.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Because my pagan path just kind of happened.
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
And so I didn't have a real struggle with that.
I had already been out of thechurch for two, three years.
Yeah.
And so I was already kind ofweeding out bits and pieces
here.
Bits and pieces because it nolonger suited me.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:31):
So I think that made it easier for me.
But I know there uh I have metsome people who they've really
struggled with it.
And the best advice that I cangive them is, you know,
meditate.
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
Well, see now here here I'm gonna I'm gonna stick a
crawl in all of this, all right?
All right, because I personallybelieve when we die, we
experience whatever we think weshould get.
Right.
We we're we're sort of judgingourselves.
I think we're kind of programmedthat way.
Do you do you make the do youmake sense when when we talk
about that judgment of life?
(14:05):
I think we sort of judgeourselves.
And when we die, if we honestlybelieve we were bad people and
we're going to hell, that'sliterally what's gonna happen.
Right.
You're literally gonna see that,and God forbid you come back.
That's the story you're gonnatell of how in the world you
were exactly possibly about tobe tortured on a chair and
thrown into a lake of firebecause that's what you actually
believe was gonna happen.
(14:26):
Right.
You know, same thing about goingto heaven, if you actually
believe you're gonna and at sometime later, those fallacies fall
away.
Right.
And you start to realize this isnot what I thought it was.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Yeah, I believe that too.
It took me a while to get tothat point.
Yeah.
But it it fits.
It makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
Well, I mean, and when you talk to because when
you start listening to thestories of life after death, and
you hear the stories and youstart seeing what people
believe, and they start to seewhat they think they should get.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
Well, and it's funny because some of those actually
come from non-Christians, andwhen they come back, they say
they saw this angel or they sawJesus or this some being.
Right.
And then from that on theythey've converted to
Christianity.
Indeed.
Right.
But to me, you were sort ofcreating a right.
(15:20):
That's where is exactly where Iwas going with a sort of a
delusion.
Right.
Because let's face it, when wedie, we don't want to believe
something bad's gonna happen tous.
We want something nice, we wantsomething peaceful.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
Yes, you know, we won't, and most of all, we want
something.
Right.
We want something.
I'm not gonna sit here and say,I don't occasionally have the
fear.
What if we're all wrong and Idie and nothing happens?
And nothing happens.
There's just I'm just dead.
Yeah, there's nothing afterthis.
I mean, it's possible.
It is possible.
I mean, I will admit that.
There is a possibility.
(15:56):
But then on the other hand,yeah, it's a possibility.
The Christians are right, andwhen I die, I will go to hell.
And but I still have a problemwith that thought.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Well, see, here's okay, here's the thing.
Hell, even in the Bible, hell isdescribed as an absence from
God.
Yes.
That's all it's described.
It's never been described as alake of fire.
Or torture.
Or a lake, yeah, a place oftorture and torment.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
The lake of fire, the lake of fire, and the only
time I actually think it's evermentioned, and not even referred
as hell, but that they openedthem opened up the earth and
threw the beast into the lake offire.
Yes.
And that's the only time it'sever mentioned.
Which was probably a volcano.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
In my opinion.
I mean, I just point is thathell, again, hell is a
construct.
SPEAKER_02 (16:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
So hell is nothing more than a separation from God.
So if you die and there'snothing you're separated from
God, then you're separated fromGod.
That's hell.
SPEAKER_02 (16:53):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Hell's not a place of torture, it's just a place of
absence.
Right.
Yeah.
So is there really anything tobe afraid of?
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
Well, the thought I could see how this would scare
early man when you're liketrapped in a cave.
Or you've had those experienceswhere you're in a dark place all
by yourself for long periods oftime and you kind of go a little
woo-hoo.
Yeah.
You know, I d I imagine aneternity of that.
True.
(17:25):
I could see where some peoplewould see that in and of itself
as a torture.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Okay.
And then translate that intowhat hell would be.
What hell would be.
SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
And hence the reason why I always thought of it as
more of an absence ofeverything.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
If it does exist or whatever.
You're just floating in theabyss.
Right.
I mean And there's nothingthere.
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
Well, actually, I'm not even going to say that.
You could probably I think evenmaybe you might even have
another soul sitting rightbeside of you, you'd never know.
You're just completely cut offand only have to deal with
yourself and your own thoughts.
Kind of kind of like astraitjacket for your whole
body.
For your soul.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
For your soul, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Yeah.
Where it's literally just adeprivation tank for your soul.
Perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
That's a deprivation tank.
Excellent.
Yeah.
So again, you know, but some ofus enjoy that, so I well, I
enjoy it.
I don't know if I enjoy it foreternity.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Right.
This is the only way I know toget rid of those feelings is to
sit there and to meditate onthem and logically analyze.
Logically analyze them and gothrough your your your your
memories and stuff like that.
Start where the things thatbring that thought up, start
working on why does that bringthat up?
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
Right.
And sit down and talk it overwith other people.
I mean, that's just like we'redoing here.
I mean, that's that's one of thebest ways to come to new
conclusions and to new thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
I don't I sometimes I don't think people actually
realize.
Yes, we do sit around all dayand talk about this crap.
Yeah, we do.
We literally do.
We do.
We talk about other stuff,though.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah, but no, we we do we yeah, we talk about this
stuff, so go figure.
All right, you about ready forsome coffee?
I believe I am.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Peg and Coffee Talk is broughtto you by Life Temple and
Seminary.
Please visit us at lifetempleseminary.org for more
(19:25):
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
Discord, Twitter, YouTube, andReddit.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
We travel down this trodden path, a maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing pyres, and so
it is the end of our days, sowalk with me till morning
(19:53):
breaks, and so it is the end ofour days, so walk with me till
morning.
Welcome to Pegging Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content, pleaseconsider donating and following
our socials.
So we've got a little bit of fanmail.
Ooh, we got fan mail.
We got fan mail.
We got fan.
Which by the way, if you go toBuzzsprout.com, you can send us
your own fan mail.
Please, Dude.
This comes from Elmira, NewYork.
(00:39):
Just wanted to say hi.
I love your podcast.
It's a part of my morning ritualwith my hot cup of tea.
I've been recently on a path ofmy own spiritual awakening, and
for someone who used to identifyas a Christian, how would you
work to overcome theoverwhelming fear of going to
hell for all eternity?
You know, that is a deep-rootedIt really is a deep-rooted
(01:02):
question.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
It it because again, you're if you're raised
Christian, you know, like wewere, you were taught this from
day one.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Well, I think this is something that a lot of
pagans deal with because a lotof us, most of the ones that
I've come across, we've all comefrom some type of Christian
background.
Right.
Catholic, Baptist, that doesn'tmatter.
SPEAKER_02 (01:25):
But again, this is but this was drilled into your
head as a kid.
Right.
You you you do a bad thing, yougo to hell.
Right.
You know, and I I'm I'm sorry, Ijust I cannot believe in a God
that would do that.
You know, hey, I'm gonna giveyou one chance to get this
right, and I already know you'regonna get it wrong, so I've
created you just to go to hell.
Right.
(01:46):
It's basically the stunt I getoff of it.
Now I understand that's theargument, but we're talking
about that feeling.
Yeah, it's it's that we'retalking about that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
It is it is a fear, it is a real fear that because
I'm all of a sudden followingthis path that's not
Christianity, God's gonna punishme.
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
You know, I still I went through kind of that when I
converted to the pagan path.
And well, I don't even know if Ireally converted, it just sort
of happened with me.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
But uh actually, I think it's a little bit easier
if it just happens.
I think it is too.
All right, because again, Inever really had that problem.
Right.
All right, to be quite honestwith you, because well, you
know, I didn't I didn'tnecessarily believe in
Christianity as a kid.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
There was just too many things that didn't see I
did, even though I recognized alot of those inconsistencies and
a lot of discrepancies and Ijust I couldn't do it.
I mean still believed in it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
I mean, because you still have the I st they still
won't answer the question.
Where did the other religionscome from?
SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Right.
How did the dinosaurs fit intothis?
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
How did yeah, where where where did all this other
stuff that actually happens?
Right.
You know, and even then, I hateto be this way.
It wasn't like Christianscreated society or even the
Jewish community.
Right.
Most of them were created bypagans.
Babylon was pagan, Rome waspagan.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
So but again, back to the question, I mean, it's
it's just something that I thinkthe longer you're on the path
and depending on your studies,yeah, and depending on how well
you once you start working outwhere in the world you're
getting your guilt from and howto stop it, those fears start to
(03:40):
go away.
Right.
I was I was gonna say it dependson your meditations, right?
Because for us, meditation isprobably one of the best ways to
deal with that stuff, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
It is a great it is a great personal therapy
session.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
It really is.
It really is.
So again, just make sure you'vegot a good support, right?
Um but yeah, that's a great wayto work through it.
Because like you said, you gottaget to the root of the problem.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
Right, because again, at the end of it, sin is
nothing but guilt.
unknown (04:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:09):
You feel guilty for doing something.
Right.
Now what you gotta ask yourselfis why do you feel guilty about
doing that action?
Once you solve that problem,things seem to work themselves
out a whole lot easier.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Well, and you have to also realize guilt guilt was
created to maintain order.
Order, yes, and to keep peoplein line.
It is the it is the stick versusthe kick.
So once you realize that, then Ithink that that also makes it
(04:46):
easier to work through and toget past this this fear that, oh
God, I'm gonna go to hell.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
Well, rationally, we can do this.
I mean, rational with ourrational mind, way we're talking
right now in the whole wholenine yards, it's a little bit
different when you are sittingthere in the middle of the
night, you know, can't sleep,tossing and turning, and you
have all these random thoughtsin your head.
Right.
You're you're you're alone withyour thoughts.
And your mind's just racing.
Racing.
(05:13):
Those fears will come back up.
Oh, yeah.
All right, because again,there's still a part of you,
this is this was told to yousince you were a kid.
So it's hard not to.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Well, and I think it also depends on how long how
long you were part of thatreligion.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
It is to me, this that this is the same thing as
when we refer to people as heand she automatically.
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (05:40):
We're we're basing it on patterns of behavior and
certain visual cues to let usknow which one to use at the
time.
All right.
And I'm not trying to bring thisin there, but hence the reason
misgendering happens all thefreaking time.
Right.
Because it's not somethingconscious we necessarily always
do.
(06:00):
Right.
It's something like blinking.
We can control it sometimes,sometimes we can.
This is the same thing withfeeling this.
I'm going to go to hell.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Are you with me?
I am, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's it's the point is, is it'sbeen so ingrained.
Ingrained.
The I think the longer you werea Christian, the harder it is to
get past that.
Yes.
If you left the church when youwere in your early teens, it
might not be such a big deal toget past that.
If you left in your 20s or your30s, then you're definitely
(06:34):
going to have an issue.
SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
Yeah.
I mean, I I can see where peoplethat are in their 40s and 50s
will have a whole lot moreproblems versus because we've
seen that anyway when teachingpeople, trying to get them to
break those some of them.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
I was gonna say we see it all the time when people
come to us for classes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
So, um, but yeah, I think those are all things that
aid or contribute to thedifficulty level.
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Right.
So I mean, we're trying to takesome, you know, other things
into account here on how hardit's gonna be to absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
It's not gonna be, okay, can I just focus on this
one thought and get to the rootof it?
SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
No, and there's multiple thoughts attached to
it.
I mean, I I don't know how toexplain this.
This whole fear of going tohell, yeah, it's it's it's it's
laced in your behavior, yourthoughts, and you know, and
especially in Christianity,because they say you can go to
hell just for thinking about anact just as much as doing an
act.
That one sin is just as bad asthe other.
(07:34):
Yeah, one sin is just as bad asthe other, yes.
And I don't that makes no senseto me.
So just because I think abouthaving premarital sex with some
that you're you're already asinner.
Right.
You're already going to hell.
Don't do that.
I mean, at some point oranother, somebody's always gonna
you're gonna turn around at somepoint and go, hmm, nice car.
(07:55):
Uh technically, you just coveredyour neighbor's property, yeah.
Property.
So when you're sitting there andyou're meditating, you start to
see those things, when you'restarting to see, I mean, just
like what we talk about with theum Wicca, the threefold law,
yeah.
How when you actually start tosit there and think about it,
how absurd it is to try to livethat way because you can never
(08:17):
unhurt anyone.
Right.
What I saw in the Christiancommunity and all that is no
matter what in the world you do,we're all going to hell because
we all sin.
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Well, and that's part of the core teaching of
Christianity is that we are allsinners.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Right.
I mean, at the end of the day,we're all sinners.
You're going to die in sin, soit means you're going to go to
hell.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
You know, that's you know, that's something that I
never truly understood.
You you've been saved.
Supposedly.
But we're still sinners.
But you're still still sinners.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
So yeah, that's that's that's that's uh and I'm
I'm sure some Christian willhear this and go, oh no, no, no,
I'll explain this, blah, blah,blah.
Please do.
Please do.
Because that don't make no senseto me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
You know, I was a big part of the church growing
up and into my, you know, intomy late teens, early twenties.
I understand where that comesfrom, but it makes no sense to
me.
SPEAKER_02 (09:09):
I have an easier time with the concept of
somebody going to hell and beingpunished than someone going to
heaven.
Really?
The Christian heaven I wasexplained to did not seem like
anything I wanted to do.
Not for all eternity.
I do not want to be in church24-7 for the rest of eternity.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
No, and that's pretty much it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
I mean, that's literally what I was told for
Christianity is heaven isnowhere where you go and you
just worship God all day.
Right.
All time, nothing, you don'tstop.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
What's the you know, I I hate to be this way.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
But for some people, that's that's the dream.
That's the idea.
That's that's the goal.
SPEAKER_02 (09:51):
I don't get it.
That just does not seem likeyou're not doing anything,
you're just worshiping andpraying.
Right.
It seems like the afterlifewould have a little bit more to
it than Jen, hey, you're gonnadie and go to church for all of
that.
There's your reward.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
No, it's I I get where you're coming from.
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
They don't have a problem with that, but they
people worry about going tohell.
SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
Well, again, they're you're made to fear it to keep
you in line.
Line.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
I I know.
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
It it it's the whole dogma and yeah, and heaven,
heaven is the ultimate rewardfor that.
For following orders, if youwill.
Right.
So, you know, when it comes downto it, that's all it is.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
In my opinion, anyway.
And I think in yours that mostof the hell are just the
constructs.
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
Again, the whole heaven and hell thing, it is a
construct to me, and they're notreal.
That they're they're just toolsthat religions use to control
the population.
Right.
Because again, we have tocontrol our population.
If not, we're sure we do, yeah.
I mean, you you have to stopcrime.
You can't just let people goaround just raping the people
(11:05):
non No, you can't.
So you have to do some of thisto some extent, and I understand
that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
And then um and ultimately it's not uh well, I
say it's not a bad way to do it.
I mean, it works.
Well, it brought us to where weare today.
SPEAKER_02 (11:20):
Yes, the system worked well enough to get us to
to this point.
Absolutely.
Does that make sense?
So I'm not faulting the systemthat they were using because
again, it wasn't just theChristians, a lot of religions
do this, right?
You know, uh because you whatyou got the whole karma thing
and it's and it's used basicallyabout the same way that they do.
(11:41):
It is, yeah.
So when did you how bad was yourfear once you started to
convert?
Because you've never, I meanwe've been married for 30
something years now, I believe.
It's not anything.
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
That's not something we've ever talked about.
No, we haven't.
Um for me, it was and you know,for the longest time I held on.
I well, I claimed that I held onto a lot of my Christian
beliefs.
Yeah.
Even starting on this path.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
And well, even to this day, you still claim you
still hold on to a lot ofChristian beliefs.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Not like I used to.
All right.
Um I I've pretty they're prettymuch gone out the window.
There's there's I don't know, Iguess there's some aspects that
maybe I incorporate, but it'snot a lot.
But for me, the idea of hell, itI had to come to terms with what
(12:39):
it was.
And it was a it was a quite ajourney to to get to the point
to realize okay, hell's aconstruct.
Yeah.
Hell hell and guilt were allthings, and the fear were all
things done to keep me in somesemblance of the union, if you
(13:00):
will.
Yeah.
So it was it was a challenge.
But for me, it wasn't a bigchallenge.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Because my pagan path just kind of happened.
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
And so I didn't have a real struggle with that.
I had already been out of thechurch for two, three years.
Yeah.
And so I was already kind ofweeding out bits and pieces
here.
Bits and pieces because it nolonger suited me.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:31):
So I think that made it easier for me.
But I know there uh I have metsome people who they've really
struggled with it.
And the best advice that I cangive them is, you know,
meditate.
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
Well, see now here here I'm gonna I'm gonna stick a
crawl in all of this, all right?
All right, because I personallybelieve when we die, we
experience whatever we think weshould get.
Right.
We we're we're sort of judgingourselves.
I think we're kind of programmedthat way.
Do you do you make the do youmake sense when when we talk
about that judgment of life?
(14:05):
I think we sort of judgeourselves.
And when we die, if we honestlybelieve we were bad people and
we're going to hell, that'sliterally what's gonna happen.
Right.
You're literally gonna see that,and God forbid you come back.
That's the story you're gonnatell of how in the world you
were exactly possibly about tobe tortured on a chair and
thrown into a lake of firebecause that's what you actually
believe was gonna happen.
(14:26):
Right.
You know, same thing about goingto heaven, if you actually
believe you're gonna and at sometime later, those fallacies fall
away.
Right.
And you start to realize this isnot what I thought it was.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Yeah, I believe that too.
It took me a while to get tothat point.
Yeah.
But it it fits.
It makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
Well, I mean, and when you talk to because when
you start listening to thestories of life after death, and
you hear the stories and youstart seeing what people
believe, and they start to seewhat they think they should get.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
Well, and it's funny because some of those actually
come from non-Christians, andwhen they come back, they say
they saw this angel or they sawJesus or this some being.
Right.
And then from that on theythey've converted to
Christianity.
Indeed.
Right.
But to me, you were sort ofcreating a right.
(15:20):
That's where is exactly where Iwas going with a sort of a
delusion.
Right.
Because let's face it, when wedie, we don't want to believe
something bad's gonna happen tous.
We want something nice, we wantsomething peaceful.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
Yes, you know, we won't, and most of all, we want
something.
Right.
We want something.
I'm not gonna sit here and say,I don't occasionally have the
fear.
What if we're all wrong and Idie and nothing happens?
And nothing happens.
There's just I'm just dead.
Yeah, there's nothing afterthis.
I mean, it's possible.
It is possible.
I mean, I will admit that.
There is a possibility.
(15:56):
But then on the other hand,yeah, it's a possibility.
The Christians are right, andwhen I die, I will go to hell.
And but I still have a problemwith that thought.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Well, see, here's okay, here's the thing.
Hell, even in the Bible, hell isdescribed as an absence from
God.
Yes.
That's all it's described.
It's never been described as alake of fire.
Or torture.
Or a lake, yeah, a place oftorture and torment.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
The lake of fire, the lake of fire, and the only
time I actually think it's evermentioned, and not even referred
as hell, but that they openedthem opened up the earth and
threw the beast into the lake offire.
Yes.
And that's the only time it'sever mentioned.
Which was probably a volcano.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
In my opinion.
I mean, I just point is thathell, again, hell is a
construct.
SPEAKER_02 (16:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
So hell is nothing more than a separation from God.
So if you die and there'snothing you're separated from
God, then you're separated fromGod.
That's hell.
SPEAKER_02 (16:53):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Hell's not a place of torture, it's just a place of
absence.
Right.
Yeah.
So is there really anything tobe afraid of?
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
Well, the thought I could see how this would scare
early man when you're liketrapped in a cave.
Or you've had those experienceswhere you're in a dark place all
by yourself for long periods oftime and you kind of go a little
woo-hoo.
Yeah.
You know, I d I imagine aneternity of that.
True.
(17:25):
I could see where some peoplewould see that in and of itself
as a torture.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Okay.
And then translate that intowhat hell would be.
What hell would be.
SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
And hence the reason why I always thought of it as
more of an absence ofeverything.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
If it does exist or whatever.
You're just floating in theabyss.
Right.
I mean And there's nothingthere.
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
Well, actually, I'm not even going to say that.
You could probably I think evenmaybe you might even have
another soul sitting rightbeside of you, you'd never know.
You're just completely cut offand only have to deal with
yourself and your own thoughts.
Kind of kind of like astraitjacket for your whole
body.
For your soul.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
For your soul, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Yeah.
Where it's literally just adeprivation tank for your soul.
Perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
That's a deprivation tank.
Excellent.
Yeah.
So again, you know, but some ofus enjoy that, so I well, I
enjoy it.
I don't know if I enjoy it foreternity.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Right.
This is the only way I know toget rid of those feelings is to
sit there and to meditate onthem and logically analyze.
Logically analyze them and gothrough your your your your
memories and stuff like that.
Start where the things thatbring that thought up, start
working on why does that bringthat up?
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
Right.
And sit down and talk it overwith other people.
I mean, that's just like we'redoing here.
I mean, that's that's one of thebest ways to come to new
conclusions and to new thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
I don't I sometimes I don't think people actually
realize.
Yes, we do sit around all dayand talk about this crap.
Yeah, we do.
We literally do.
We do.
We talk about other stuff,though.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah, but no, we we do we yeah, we talk about this
stuff, so go figure.
All right, you about ready forsome coffee?
I believe I am.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Peg and Coffee Talk is broughtto you by Life Temple and
Seminary.
Please visit us at lifetempleseminary.org for more
(19:25):
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
Discord, Twitter, YouTube, andReddit.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
We travel down this trodden path, a maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing pyres, and so
it is the end of our days, sowalk with me till morning
(19:53):
breaks, and so it is the end ofour days, so walk with me till
morning.
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