January 22, 2025 • 25 mins
What happens when the eagerness to lend a hand clashes with the ethical boundaries of magical intervention? Join us on Pagan Coffee Talk as we unravel the complexities of aiding others. We promise you'll leave with a deeper understanding of the intricate dance between desire to help and the often murky waters of ethical intervention. We explore the balance of knowing when to act and when to let nature take its course, drawing upon wisdom from diverse spiritual traditions. Whether it's the temptation of using active magical solutions or the quieter strength found in patience and meditation, we challenge listeners to consider the true necessity and impact of their actions. We emphasize the importance of asking questions, listening, and reflecting before jumping into action, and the wisdom in recognizing when a situation might require official intervention.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi Lord Knight.
Hi, Look, the snow finally wentaway.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
It's coming back, don't worry.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Grandpa always said if the snows last longer than a
week, it's waiting for itsfriends to show up.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Well, I mean okay, Well, that only works in the
south.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
North.
We just know it's snow season.
So today we are going to talkabout as a witch, as a pagan.
Just because you can interveneor interfere or meddle, should
you Not necessarily?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
You may want to.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Well and that's sort of my point.
I think, right, it's humannature to want to help.
It's human nature to want tofix, to I don't know prevent, to
influence, to do all of thesethings.
But often, yeah, we see this alot in the pagan community,
where people come to us and go.
Someone else is having aproblem.
(01:28):
Right, it's not me directly,but it's my friend, it's my
significant other, my co-worker,whomever is having this issue,
and I want to intervene on theirbehalf.
And it's like, well, first ofall, did they ask you to?
Right?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
see, that's where most people I think this is
where most people mess up theynever ask that real first
question right.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Were you asked?
Were you asked?
And even if you were asked,does it still mean that you
should?
I?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
mean well, were you even really asked, or was the
person just sitting therebitching?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
True.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
You know Well, but sometimes it's not bitching
right.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Sometimes it's a serious issue.
Something's happening,somebody's dealing with
something and I mean I get it.
It can be rough, but it's likecraft is not always the answer.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
No.
I'd like to say that it is butLet me put it to you this way In
a religious context, yes it isalways the answer.
Magically.
It's not Right.
It's when you start puttingthese spells and stuff in there
and sticking your nose in there,it's not realizing your field
of expertise.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah.
But then what if you havesomeone who is an occult
practitioner and you knowthey're very well versed in
magic, then because they, thenthey feel like it, they go okay,
but I do have the expertise, Ido have the knowledge, but again
, does it mean you should meddlewell?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
we're back to.
Are you going to fix it the waythey want to fix?
Oh there's the stick in the,there's the rub.
All right, I can see a solutionto the problem.
It does not necessarily meanit's the solution you want
that's a harsh one, but it'strue, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yeah, it's true, because just because I would fix
it one way doesn't mean it'sthe fix that you want or need at
the time, right so then?
So then are we exerting ourwill upon someone else?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
to some extent.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yes and we're exerting our will upon the
situation right I can backfirereal fast well again.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
You know we got to remit that all magic is nothing
more than will so againenforcing that we do on a daily
basis, but when we start to pushit into other people's lives,
that's where it tends to comeback and slap us in the face but
it's so hard.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
It's so hard to sit on our hands.
And it's funny because in otherfaiths right, what do people
say?
They just go, I'll pray for you, I'll pray for you, right, I
know I don't have a problem withthat, well, but that's what I
mean.
That's prayer is fine.
Prayer is fine, but pagansdon't go there first.
Pagans go right to.
Let me start brewing and doingand confining.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
You're not sitting there going.
Hey gods, I have this friend.
Can you please give me thewisdom to know what to do, to
maybe help?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
them.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Right, which?
That answer may be nothing.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yeah, and that's what I mean.
And pagans, I think, have to bea little bit more willing, take
a step back from the doing andgo into um, because to us
sometimes, sometimes I think,prayer can seem passive.
Right, that's the problem.
We all want action, right, wewant to do and pagan is a very
(05:00):
do heavy faith but sometimes thepassivity of just let me pray
about it, let me meditate aboutit, is more effective and more
of what that person needs or isit because we have this attitude
that sometimes problems do workthemselves out?
(05:22):
yeah, but we're also impatientyeah like anything else.
I mean we're.
I mean the reality is if, ifmore pagans took a beat from the
buddhist path, we would neverdo magic no because we would
just wait and defer and letthings work themselves out, and
then we would go oh okay, wellthen that happened how it was
(05:44):
supposed to?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
yeah well, now let me ask you is this the same logic
that we are getting from when wetalk about healing magic?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
that sometimes healing people is not
necessarily the correct yeahanswer I mean, look, I think
that sometimes pagans feel a bitlike the island of misfit toys
and we all feel like in someways we're a little bit broken
and we're flawed, and you know,we're broken creatures and we
(06:13):
know this.
So when we see another brokencreature, we want to fix, we
want to mend, we want to heal,we want to do all of these
things, but we forget there's abig difference between taking a
baby bird that has fallen out ofthe nest Right.
That is just shy, of being oldenough to fly and saying, okay,
(06:35):
little dude, I'm going to putyou in a box, I'm going to feed
you, I'm going to let you heal,and then let you go.
And having the newborn babybird that fell out of the nest,
that is nowhere near flight.
That can't possibly sustainitself and, sadly, the better
decision is probably to humanely.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Just leave the bird alone.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Right, let it die Let nature take its course.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I mean I'm sorry if his parents are there.
The parents are probably prettyclose by watching anyway.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
And our intervention is unlikely to do much in that
situation.
And then we, but we again, wejust we can't help ourselves.
We can't, and I would gather tosay just about every pagan
probably has a story of wherethey have done this, they have
overstepped, they have overintervened and it's put them in
(07:30):
the ass, or it's just been a lotof energy and a lot of effort
and a lot of heartache andnothing and yeah, for for no
good or real reason in the endyeah, I mean, it's kind of like
all those people that you seethat find the baby squirrel yeah
yeah, for everyone thatactually lives there, about 100
(07:51):
that probably dies in thatsituation yeah, and it, but it's
tough, it's tough.
I wish there was a um, a betteranswer to this or a way to I
don't know because it's funny.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You don't want that behavior completely suppressed,
but you sort of do.
At the same time, you wantpeople to be caring and
empathetic to others well,because compassion is important.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, right, and yes, empathy is important, but
neither compassion nor empathyby themselves, right?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
as an emotion.
No, no, no you're right.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
That is their entire existence.
Empathy doesn't require you todo anything.
Compassion doesn't necessarilyrequire you to do it.
It is an attitude.
It is how you go about livingyour life, it is how you conduct
yourself, but in nowhere doesit say that, in order to be a
(08:50):
compassionate person, you haveto put yourself out there.
Yeah or overextend.
I think both of thosesituations come down to what can
you give of freely that doesnot take away too much from
yourself, and see, this is whereI think this, where lord man
(09:11):
kept on being into our head toknow your field of expertise.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
All right, yeah, so that way, when people come up to
me and ask me medical stuff,I'm not a doctor, you know.
Yes, I did work in hospitals,but I'm not a doctor, I'm not
even a nurse.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
And I think that probably what people often fail
to realize is that our mostmagical power is listening.
Yes, it's listening and it'ssaying those words.
I empathize with you.
You, I have compassion for yoursituation, I'm sorry that
(09:50):
you're going through this, youknow, but it's not jumping in to
go, I'm gonna fix it.
No, yeah, and that's anotherreason why I do think that, from
a clerical standpoint, clericstandpoint, this is why it's so
important for practitioners andespecially groups, to have a
(10:15):
pre-existing list of localresources yes for any number of
situations that can arise rightbe it it healthcare,
homelessness, drug addictionshelters food banks.
Right Low cost clinics.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And stuff like this.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, I mean, this is where you know.
It's funny because we alwayssaid that you know.
For Life Temple, we require ourthird degrees to receive a
certain amount of counselingright and to study a certain
amount of counseling from atherapy standpoint.
But also, a great addition tothat is a little bit of social
(10:59):
work.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's taking a couple of classesin social work and or again
creating, creating that networkof resources, because I mean
just the volunteering for ahotline, yeah yeah, teaches you
a lot.
Oh yeah, because same thing.
You know folks who you're right, like volunteering on a hotline
(11:21):
.
There you become a branch of aresource and being able to say
my benefit lies in the fact thatI'm listening to what this
person has to say and that I amable to direct them to other
things Right that they can takeaction upon.
I can give this person a littlebit of hope, because I got some
(11:43):
resources for them, right, wecan help you Right.
Little bit of hope because,like, I got some resources for
that, we can help you right.
But you're not necessarilygoing here.
Let me give you right in awinter wardrobe and get you a
hotel room and you know, yeah,but it's it's, it's easy.
It's easy to to fall into thatbecause we so badly we don't
(12:07):
want to see people suffer.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Well, and it does become hard.
When do you intervene versuswhen you?
Speaker 4 (12:13):
don't, when should you?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I mean again someone on the side of the road and pain
and stuff.
Yes, you stop and intervene.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yes.
All right, we understand this,but Helplessness right Right,
understand this, buthelplessness, right right, we
intervene when someone is notable to advocate for themselves
and not able to help themselves.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Um, for whatever that looks like, and we remember
when you're doing that.
You need to advocate for them,not for what you think is right,
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
That's the situation.
If you're looking at someonewho's able-bodied and just
they're just having a rough time, give them resources.
Don't try to do it for them,that's.
And another thing about that issometimes help right assistance
that is also empowering for theother person.
(13:07):
If you do it for them, you'restripping them, you're taking
that power away from them andyou're kind of denying them the
satisfaction of feeling likethey were able to pull
themselves out of whatever thesituation was I mean because we
have this whole entire story.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Uh, I heard a long time ago sort of on the same
lines about this guy who found amoth or something trying to
metamorph and come out of itsshell.
And it was struggling, so hedecided to help it.
Well, in doing so, thebutterfly's wings didn't get
strong enough so he never couldfly.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
This is the concept we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
We think we're doing something, and well, yeah, what
is that?
The road to hell's paved withgood intentions, yeah well, it's
funny.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
You said a moth because it's.
It's a similar thing like ifyou watch a baby bird come out
of a shell.
That looks excruciating yes, itlooks awful, and it takes
forever and this poor littlething is struggling and
struggling and struggling.
Yeah, I can.
I can probably think almostimmediately most pagans would be
like let me just take the showoff no stop it.
(14:17):
This has been going on forhundreds of thousands of years
before you this is how this birdstrengthens its muscles to get
out.
This is yeah, exactly if.
If this bird doesn't go throughthis, they might not make it,
so yeah, but it's so easy for usto want to just jump on in
(14:40):
there and you know it, I mean.
And then there's the herocomplex, right, the savior
complex, yeah, and pagans are noexception to it.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think we're a little bit more prone to it
Potentially yeah, we.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
I mean, man, there are so many people.
This is where a little bit ofpower can be a dangerous thing,
right?
Yeah, bit of power can be adangerous thing, right?
Yeah?
Um, priests and priestesseshave to be very careful to not
start thinking more ofthemselves than is necessary
yeah yeah, it's the I'm notspecial concept.
(15:19):
No, and this is tough, you know, for seconds and thirds and as
people climb the ranks.
You know, remember, at the endof the day, you and your first
degrees are the same yeah,literally, literally the same.
Yeah, you, you may have a fewmore notches in your belt, but
(15:42):
you're the same, yeah, um, yeah,and.
And this is also where, again,delegation is lovely, because,
well, actually I shouldn't evensay delegation community yeah
because if you want to try toassist someone again, rather
than necessarily trying to takeit on yourself or magically
(16:03):
intervene, sometimes it's reallynice to throw something out
anonymously to the community andsay, hey, I have someone
experiencing abc.
Is this anyone's area ofexpertise?
Are there any suggestions?
Has anyone dealt with thispersonally?
Yeah, because that's really.
(16:24):
That is again, again.
It's knowledge, it's community,it's that is where the power
lies.
You know there's a reason whywe were the passers of
information, right, right, andyou know that was, that was
always the big draw of the townwitch is that we knew things.
(16:47):
Yeah, but how we we paidattention yeah, yeah, we didn't
know things, because we werejust knowing things right, we
paid attention pass down it was,it was wisdom, and and that
wisdom still has to exist in ouractions and our affairs today,
which you know is hard when wego, but google knows everything
(17:09):
well, I don't know if it knowseverything no, it doesn't.
I think there's five percentleft remember there's still that
part of the ocean we knownothing about.
But yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
We have Well, let me ask you this what are ways that
you do to stop yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
If we're talking about this, what?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
are ways to actually stop yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
So what I do is I ask a lot of questions, I try to
really get a lot of informationfrom this person about the
situation so that I am not againtempted to just jump on in
there and try to do right on thespot.
(17:57):
You know, let me really gatherup the full scope of what's
happening now.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I don't know about you, but when I've been in this
situation, I do just like youand start to ask questions nine
times out of ten.
You see the person going andtelling you about this.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
You see that light bulb moment on there because
they this sort of helps themfigure it out versus you're
working, you're you're problemsolving by forcing them to think
differently, or potentiallydifferently, about the situation
, because some a question thatyou might ask may lead them to
(18:38):
realize that there's somethingthey have not thought about or
explored.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
So asking a lot of questions, listening intently
and then, yes, makingsuggestions, but the other thing
is I force myself not to makeany promises on the spot true,
true.
I will take the time myself tosit back and think about what is
(19:09):
feasible.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, I'm like you.
I will use the meditate on thisfor two days and come back and
see me.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
It does help.
And it gives you time to think.
It gives them time to think,yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Because here's the other thing Most situations not
all, but most right.
They aren't going to be solvedovernight.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
No, and you've got to remember when you are sitting
down and you're talking aboutthis and all this, your first
reaction is your first.
On anything that they tell you,you're going to have your own
emotional reaction to it.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
And you're going to have to let that pass before you
can start thinking aboutrational.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Well, that also brings up another really good
point.
You have to confer with the lawof the land.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Because if you are having a strong emotional
reaction, is there a law beingbroken?
Is there an injustice?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Being done.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Right, and in that case, do we need to take a step
back?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Right.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
And involve the law of the land.
You, yeah, in a weird way and Imean, I know that this isn't
always the case, but right, wetalk about first responders.
We talk oh not, sorry, notfirst mandatory reporters, right
, right, find me a witch who isnot a mandatory reporter, right,
right, I would be flabbergastedif I heard that a witch turned
(20:36):
their back on a situation orchose not to intervene in a
situation of that nature.
Right, right, because at thatpoint again, if we're talking
about the abuse, the neglect,the harm of something or someone
(20:57):
who cannot advocate or fend forthemselves, then damn the
consequences, yeah, and and Idon't mean that magically,
because I'm not going tomagically intervene, I'm going
to call the authorities, right,right, and I don't care, I don't
care Whatever dust that mightkick up, right, I think you know
(21:19):
, again, the whole, it outweighsthe good of the one.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
It's that At the time .
I need to make this situationsafe for everyone, and this is
not.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, this situation safe for, yes, everyone.
And this is not.
Yeah, I I just yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I can't imagine the idea of yeah, of there being a
witch that did not considerthemselves a mandatory reporter
yeah, um, I mean, don't get mewrong I praise the people who
get the dogs out of thebackyards that are being abused
in the hut yeah these things Iunderstand but, then there are
times where you start to getinto people's personal business
(21:53):
and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
You really shouldn't.
Yeah, yeah, and there's a lotof that because craft there's a
nosiness to craft.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah, deals with emotions.
When you've got people talkingabout vendettas and hexes and,
uh, you know anything that couldbe negatively impacting them,
there's that retaliation factorthat some practitioners go to
(22:25):
yeah but there's an irony here,because what you should be
focusing on is the fortificationof the individual, not trying
to pinpoint whoever is thewrongdoer.
Right, it's like fortify yourdefenses first, right, because
there, I mean, there is to meanyway there's.
(22:47):
The irony of of hexcraft isthat all hexcraft is is
something that has managed towork its way into a weakness in
the armor.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yes, yeah, fix the armor, fix the armor I just yeah
uh-huh never mind and and howdo you fix this armor?
You do this through yourmeditation.
Well, partially, yeah,partially meditation.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
But I mean, look a fix, an armor, right.
Let's be honest, if we're usingthat metaphorically right to
talk about a person, it could beanything.
It could be their mental stateit could be therapy, it could be
their physical being, it couldbe exercise, it could be.
But whatever it is, you focuson that person, not the external
(23:32):
thing.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Out there.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Yeah, yeah.
So it makes and it does.
It makes a huge difference forthat individual, because then
you're giving them tools.
We're back to yes, teach a manhow to fish Right For a lifetime
Right, Instead of just handinghim a fishy Not that we don't
like being handed a fishy everynow and then I mean I'll take a
(23:54):
fish.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
And I'll take a cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Nice, try Ooh coffee.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andReddit.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires.
And so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning
(24:39):
breaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morning,thank you.
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Now here are your hosts, ladyAbba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi Lord Knight.
Hi, Look, the snow finally wentaway.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
It's coming back, don't worry.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Grandpa always said if the snows last longer than a
week, it's waiting for itsfriends to show up.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Well, I mean okay, Well, that only works in the
south.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
North.
We just know it's snow season.
So today we are going to talkabout as a witch, as a pagan.
Just because you can interveneor interfere or meddle, should
you Not necessarily?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
You may want to.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Well and that's sort of my point.
I think, right, it's humannature to want to help.
It's human nature to want tofix, to I don't know prevent, to
influence, to do all of thesethings.
But often, yeah, we see this alot in the pagan community,
where people come to us and go.
Someone else is having aproblem.
(01:28):
Right, it's not me directly,but it's my friend, it's my
significant other, my co-worker,whomever is having this issue,
and I want to intervene on theirbehalf.
And it's like, well, first ofall, did they ask you to?
Right?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
see, that's where most people I think this is
where most people mess up theynever ask that real first
question right.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Were you asked?
Were you asked?
And even if you were asked,does it still mean that you
should?
I?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
mean well, were you even really asked, or was the
person just sitting therebitching?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
True.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
You know Well, but sometimes it's not bitching
right.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Sometimes it's a serious issue.
Something's happening,somebody's dealing with
something and I mean I get it.
It can be rough, but it's likecraft is not always the answer.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
No.
I'd like to say that it is butLet me put it to you this way In
a religious context, yes it isalways the answer.
Magically.
It's not Right.
It's when you start puttingthese spells and stuff in there
and sticking your nose in there,it's not realizing your field
of expertise.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah.
But then what if you havesomeone who is an occult
practitioner and you knowthey're very well versed in
magic, then because they, thenthey feel like it, they go okay,
but I do have the expertise, Ido have the knowledge, but again
, does it mean you should meddlewell?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
we're back to.
Are you going to fix it the waythey want to fix?
Oh there's the stick in the,there's the rub.
All right, I can see a solutionto the problem.
It does not necessarily meanit's the solution you want
that's a harsh one, but it'strue, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yeah, it's true, because just because I would fix
it one way doesn't mean it'sthe fix that you want or need at
the time, right so then?
So then are we exerting ourwill upon someone else?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
to some extent.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yes and we're exerting our will upon the
situation right I can backfirereal fast well again.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
You know we got to remit that all magic is nothing
more than will so againenforcing that we do on a daily
basis, but when we start to pushit into other people's lives,
that's where it tends to comeback and slap us in the face but
it's so hard.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
It's so hard to sit on our hands.
And it's funny because in otherfaiths right, what do people
say?
They just go, I'll pray for you, I'll pray for you, right, I
know I don't have a problem withthat, well, but that's what I
mean.
That's prayer is fine.
Prayer is fine, but pagansdon't go there first.
Pagans go right to.
Let me start brewing and doingand confining.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
You're not sitting there going.
Hey gods, I have this friend.
Can you please give me thewisdom to know what to do, to
maybe help?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
them.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Right, which?
That answer may be nothing.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yeah, and that's what I mean.
And pagans, I think, have to bea little bit more willing, take
a step back from the doing andgo into um, because to us
sometimes, sometimes I think,prayer can seem passive.
Right, that's the problem.
We all want action, right, wewant to do and pagan is a very
(05:00):
do heavy faith but sometimes thepassivity of just let me pray
about it, let me meditate aboutit, is more effective and more
of what that person needs or isit because we have this attitude
that sometimes problems do workthemselves out?
(05:22):
yeah, but we're also impatientyeah like anything else.
I mean we're.
I mean the reality is if, ifmore pagans took a beat from the
buddhist path, we would neverdo magic no because we would
just wait and defer and letthings work themselves out, and
then we would go oh okay, wellthen that happened how it was
(05:44):
supposed to?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
yeah well, now let me ask you is this the same logic
that we are getting from when wetalk about healing magic?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
that sometimes healing people is not
necessarily the correct yeahanswer I mean, look, I think
that sometimes pagans feel a bitlike the island of misfit toys
and we all feel like in someways we're a little bit broken
and we're flawed, and you know,we're broken creatures and we
(06:13):
know this.
So when we see another brokencreature, we want to fix, we
want to mend, we want to heal,we want to do all of these
things, but we forget there's abig difference between taking a
baby bird that has fallen out ofthe nest Right.
That is just shy, of being oldenough to fly and saying, okay,
(06:35):
little dude, I'm going to putyou in a box, I'm going to feed
you, I'm going to let you heal,and then let you go.
And having the newborn babybird that fell out of the nest,
that is nowhere near flight.
That can't possibly sustainitself and, sadly, the better
decision is probably to humanely.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Just leave the bird alone.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Right, let it die Let nature take its course.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I mean I'm sorry if his parents are there.
The parents are probably prettyclose by watching anyway.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
And our intervention is unlikely to do much in that
situation.
And then we, but we again, wejust we can't help ourselves.
We can't, and I would gather tosay just about every pagan
probably has a story of wherethey have done this, they have
overstepped, they have overintervened and it's put them in
(07:30):
the ass, or it's just been a lotof energy and a lot of effort
and a lot of heartache andnothing and yeah, for for no
good or real reason in the endyeah, I mean, it's kind of like
all those people that you seethat find the baby squirrel yeah
yeah, for everyone thatactually lives there, about 100
(07:51):
that probably dies in thatsituation yeah, and it, but it's
tough, it's tough.
I wish there was a um, a betteranswer to this or a way to I
don't know because it's funny.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You don't want that behavior completely suppressed,
but you sort of do.
At the same time, you wantpeople to be caring and
empathetic to others well,because compassion is important.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, right, and yes, empathy is important, but
neither compassion nor empathyby themselves, right?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
as an emotion.
No, no, no you're right.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
That is their entire existence.
Empathy doesn't require you todo anything.
Compassion doesn't necessarilyrequire you to do it.
It is an attitude.
It is how you go about livingyour life, it is how you conduct
yourself, but in nowhere doesit say that, in order to be a
(08:50):
compassionate person, you haveto put yourself out there.
Yeah or overextend.
I think both of thosesituations come down to what can
you give of freely that doesnot take away too much from
yourself, and see, this is whereI think this, where lord man
(09:11):
kept on being into our head toknow your field of expertise.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
All right, yeah, so that way, when people come up to
me and ask me medical stuff,I'm not a doctor, you know.
Yes, I did work in hospitals,but I'm not a doctor, I'm not
even a nurse.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
And I think that probably what people often fail
to realize is that our mostmagical power is listening.
Yes, it's listening and it'ssaying those words.
I empathize with you.
You, I have compassion for yoursituation, I'm sorry that
(09:50):
you're going through this, youknow, but it's not jumping in to
go, I'm gonna fix it.
No, yeah, and that's anotherreason why I do think that, from
a clerical standpoint, clericstandpoint, this is why it's so
important for practitioners andespecially groups, to have a
(10:15):
pre-existing list of localresources yes for any number of
situations that can arise rightbe it it healthcare,
homelessness, drug addictionshelters food banks.
Right Low cost clinics.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And stuff like this.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, I mean, this is where you know.
It's funny because we alwayssaid that you know.
For Life Temple, we require ourthird degrees to receive a
certain amount of counselingright and to study a certain
amount of counseling from atherapy standpoint.
But also, a great addition tothat is a little bit of social
(10:59):
work.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's taking a couple of classesin social work and or again
creating, creating that networkof resources, because I mean
just the volunteering for ahotline, yeah yeah, teaches you
a lot.
Oh yeah, because same thing.
You know folks who you're right, like volunteering on a hotline
(11:21):
.
There you become a branch of aresource and being able to say
my benefit lies in the fact thatI'm listening to what this
person has to say and that I amable to direct them to other
things Right that they can takeaction upon.
I can give this person a littlebit of hope, because I got some
(11:43):
resources for them, right, wecan help you Right.
Little bit of hope because,like, I got some resources for
that, we can help you right.
But you're not necessarilygoing here.
Let me give you right in awinter wardrobe and get you a
hotel room and you know, yeah,but it's it's, it's easy.
It's easy to to fall into thatbecause we so badly we don't
(12:07):
want to see people suffer.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Well, and it does become hard.
When do you intervene versuswhen you?
Speaker 4 (12:13):
don't, when should you?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I mean again someone on the side of the road and pain
and stuff.
Yes, you stop and intervene.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yes.
All right, we understand this,but Helplessness right Right,
understand this, buthelplessness, right right, we
intervene when someone is notable to advocate for themselves
and not able to help themselves.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Um, for whatever that looks like, and we remember
when you're doing that.
You need to advocate for them,not for what you think is right,
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
That's the situation.
If you're looking at someonewho's able-bodied and just
they're just having a rough time, give them resources.
Don't try to do it for them,that's.
And another thing about that issometimes help right assistance
that is also empowering for theother person.
(13:07):
If you do it for them, you'restripping them, you're taking
that power away from them andyou're kind of denying them the
satisfaction of feeling likethey were able to pull
themselves out of whatever thesituation was I mean because we
have this whole entire story.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Uh, I heard a long time ago sort of on the same
lines about this guy who found amoth or something trying to
metamorph and come out of itsshell.
And it was struggling, so hedecided to help it.
Well, in doing so, thebutterfly's wings didn't get
strong enough so he never couldfly.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
This is the concept we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
We think we're doing something, and well, yeah, what
is that?
The road to hell's paved withgood intentions, yeah well, it's
funny.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
You said a moth because it's.
It's a similar thing like ifyou watch a baby bird come out
of a shell.
That looks excruciating yes, itlooks awful, and it takes
forever and this poor littlething is struggling and
struggling and struggling.
Yeah, I can.
I can probably think almostimmediately most pagans would be
like let me just take the showoff no stop it.
(14:17):
This has been going on forhundreds of thousands of years
before you this is how this birdstrengthens its muscles to get
out.
This is yeah, exactly if.
If this bird doesn't go throughthis, they might not make it,
so yeah, but it's so easy for usto want to just jump on in
(14:40):
there and you know it, I mean.
And then there's the herocomplex, right, the savior
complex, yeah, and pagans are noexception to it.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think we're a little bit more prone to it
Potentially yeah, we.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
I mean, man, there are so many people.
This is where a little bit ofpower can be a dangerous thing,
right?
Yeah, bit of power can be adangerous thing, right?
Yeah?
Um, priests and priestesseshave to be very careful to not
start thinking more ofthemselves than is necessary
yeah yeah, it's the I'm notspecial concept.
(15:19):
No, and this is tough, you know, for seconds and thirds and as
people climb the ranks.
You know, remember, at the endof the day, you and your first
degrees are the same yeah,literally, literally the same.
Yeah, you, you may have a fewmore notches in your belt, but
(15:42):
you're the same, yeah, um, yeah,and.
And this is also where, again,delegation is lovely, because,
well, actually I shouldn't evensay delegation community yeah
because if you want to try toassist someone again, rather
than necessarily trying to takeit on yourself or magically
(16:03):
intervene, sometimes it's reallynice to throw something out
anonymously to the community andsay, hey, I have someone
experiencing abc.
Is this anyone's area ofexpertise?
Are there any suggestions?
Has anyone dealt with thispersonally?
Yeah, because that's really.
(16:24):
That is again, again.
It's knowledge, it's community,it's that is where the power
lies.
You know there's a reason whywe were the passers of
information, right, right, andyou know that was, that was
always the big draw of the townwitch is that we knew things.
(16:47):
Yeah, but how we we paidattention yeah, yeah, we didn't
know things, because we werejust knowing things right, we
paid attention pass down it was,it was wisdom, and and that
wisdom still has to exist in ouractions and our affairs today,
which you know is hard when wego, but google knows everything
(17:09):
well, I don't know if it knowseverything no, it doesn't.
I think there's five percentleft remember there's still that
part of the ocean we knownothing about.
But yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
We have Well, let me ask you this what are ways that
you do to stop yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
If we're talking about this, what?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
are ways to actually stop yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
So what I do is I ask a lot of questions, I try to
really get a lot of informationfrom this person about the
situation so that I am not againtempted to just jump on in
there and try to do right on thespot.
(17:57):
You know, let me really gatherup the full scope of what's
happening now.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I don't know about you, but when I've been in this
situation, I do just like youand start to ask questions nine
times out of ten.
You see the person going andtelling you about this.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
You see that light bulb moment on there because
they this sort of helps themfigure it out versus you're
working, you're you're problemsolving by forcing them to think
differently, or potentiallydifferently, about the situation
, because some a question thatyou might ask may lead them to
(18:38):
realize that there's somethingthey have not thought about or
explored.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
So asking a lot of questions, listening intently
and then, yes, makingsuggestions, but the other thing
is I force myself not to makeany promises on the spot true,
true.
I will take the time myself tosit back and think about what is
(19:09):
feasible.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, I'm like you.
I will use the meditate on thisfor two days and come back and
see me.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
It does help.
And it gives you time to think.
It gives them time to think,yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Because here's the other thing Most situations not
all, but most right.
They aren't going to be solvedovernight.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
No, and you've got to remember when you are sitting
down and you're talking aboutthis and all this, your first
reaction is your first.
On anything that they tell you,you're going to have your own
emotional reaction to it.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
And you're going to have to let that pass before you
can start thinking aboutrational.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Well, that also brings up another really good
point.
You have to confer with the lawof the land.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Because if you are having a strong emotional
reaction, is there a law beingbroken?
Is there an injustice?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Being done.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Right, and in that case, do we need to take a step
back?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Right.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
And involve the law of the land.
You, yeah, in a weird way and Imean, I know that this isn't
always the case, but right, wetalk about first responders.
We talk oh not, sorry, notfirst mandatory reporters, right
, right, find me a witch who isnot a mandatory reporter, right,
right, I would be flabbergastedif I heard that a witch turned
(20:36):
their back on a situation orchose not to intervene in a
situation of that nature.
Right, right, because at thatpoint again, if we're talking
about the abuse, the neglect,the harm of something or someone
(20:57):
who cannot advocate or fend forthemselves, then damn the
consequences, yeah, and and Idon't mean that magically,
because I'm not going tomagically intervene, I'm going
to call the authorities, right,right, and I don't care, I don't
care Whatever dust that mightkick up, right, I think you know
(21:19):
, again, the whole, it outweighsthe good of the one.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
It's that At the time .
I need to make this situationsafe for everyone, and this is
not.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, this situation safe for, yes, everyone.
And this is not.
Yeah, I I just yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I can't imagine the idea of yeah, of there being a
witch that did not considerthemselves a mandatory reporter
yeah, um, I mean, don't get mewrong I praise the people who
get the dogs out of thebackyards that are being abused
in the hut yeah these things Iunderstand but, then there are
times where you start to getinto people's personal business
(21:53):
and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
You really shouldn't.
Yeah, yeah, and there's a lotof that because craft there's a
nosiness to craft.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah, deals with emotions.
When you've got people talkingabout vendettas and hexes and,
uh, you know anything that couldbe negatively impacting them,
there's that retaliation factorthat some practitioners go to
(22:25):
yeah but there's an irony here,because what you should be
focusing on is the fortificationof the individual, not trying
to pinpoint whoever is thewrongdoer.
Right, it's like fortify yourdefenses first, right, because
there, I mean, there is to meanyway there's.
(22:47):
The irony of of hexcraft isthat all hexcraft is is
something that has managed towork its way into a weakness in
the armor.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yes, yeah, fix the armor, fix the armor I just yeah
uh-huh never mind and and howdo you fix this armor?
You do this through yourmeditation.
Well, partially, yeah,partially meditation.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
But I mean, look a fix, an armor, right.
Let's be honest, if we're usingthat metaphorically right to
talk about a person, it could beanything.
It could be their mental stateit could be therapy, it could be
their physical being, it couldbe exercise, it could be.
But whatever it is, you focuson that person, not the external
(23:32):
thing.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Out there.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Yeah, yeah.
So it makes and it does.
It makes a huge difference forthat individual, because then
you're giving them tools.
We're back to yes, teach a manhow to fish Right For a lifetime
Right, Instead of just handinghim a fishy Not that we don't
like being handed a fishy everynow and then I mean I'll take a
(23:54):
fish.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
And I'll take a cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Nice, try Ooh coffee.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempleseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andReddit.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone
and mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires.
And so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning
(24:39):
breaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morning,thank you.
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