October 15, 2025 • 23 mins
Perfect love and perfect trust sound beautiful until you have to use them in a real circle with real people. We pull the veil back on what these ideals mean in practice - from the first nervous step into a new group to the split-second decision to ask for a door during ritual.
We talk through the difference between coven and circle, why some spaces demand deep energetic interdependence while others prioritize reverence and observation, and how to decide which role fits your level of trust. You’ll hear why self-trust comes first—trusting your instincts, your training, and your emotions without shame.
We also wade into devotional nuance: respecting powerful deities while declining relationships that don’t feel safe or aligned. Reverence doesn’t require intimacy, and discernment is not fear—it’s wisdom.
If you’re building community, stepping into new spaces, or reweaving trust after a rough experience, this conversation offers a grounded path forward. Subscribe, share with a practitioner who needs stronger boundaries, and leave a review with your best tip for asking—or granting—a clean door.
Join us on
Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:16):
Welcome to Peggy and Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content, pleaseconsider donating and following
our socials.
SPEAKER_03 (00:24):
All right.
Let's talk about another one ofthose terms which is like to
throw around a whole bunch.
SPEAKER_04 (00:31):
Oh yeah?
Really?
Which one?
SPEAKER_03 (00:33):
Perfect love and perfect trust.
Perfect love.
unknown (00:36):
Perfect.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
What does it mean?
SPEAKER_04 (00:39):
Well, it means perfect love and perfect trust.
What do you expect it to mean?
SPEAKER_03 (00:45):
Ha ha ha.
What does it represent?
How about that?
SPEAKER_04 (00:49):
So what would you consider perfect love?
SPEAKER_03 (00:55):
So perfect love is acceptance.
It is accepting someone as theyare, for who they are, for what
they are, with no expectationsand no ideas to the contrary.
SPEAKER_04 (01:16):
No expectations to change, no expectations to do or
to expect.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
It is literally being able to respect and love a
person as they are.
SPEAKER_04 (01:31):
I see it as the lack of fear to be yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (01:35):
Okay, well that's part of that, sure.
SPEAKER_04 (01:37):
That that you, that I, that perfect love to me is
that I feel comfortable enoughto be 100% myself inside that
circle.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
Well, sure.
Because if you are beingaccepted as you are, right,
without fear, without judgment,without any other expectation,
yes, you are free to beyourself.
SPEAKER_04 (02:02):
Well, I guess my question would be there is is
that perfect love something weget from someone else or
something we get from ourselves?
SPEAKER_03 (02:10):
Are you with me?
I think when it comes to there'stwo different, there's two
different viewpoints here.
Right.
There's the generality ofperfect love and perfect trust,
which should come from the self.
It should come from within.
The external component ofperfect love and perfect trust
(02:33):
is inside of circle.
And inside of circle, it isvalidated by others.
Outside of circle, it isvalidated in yourself.
And that's where it gets tricky.
SPEAKER_04 (02:50):
Let's explain this.
How do we get validation insidecircle like this?
Well, and I know a lot of peopleare probably sitting back going,
uh but but but again, it issomething you have to think
about for a second.
SPEAKER_03 (03:05):
Absolutely.
I mean, look, I think perfectlove is our equivalent or our
way of to use another tradition,Jesus loves you.
SPEAKER_04 (03:16):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Because the statement is so simple but so
powerful, right?
Jesus loves you.
Jesus loves you no matter what.
Jesus loves you as you are,Jesus loves you in whatever form
you come in, whatever yourcircumstance, whatever your
station, whatever color, all ofit, all of it, all of it.
(03:39):
And my favorite, one of myfavorite memes is Jesus lining
up a bunch of people andsmacking them and saying, What
part of I love everyone didn'tyou understand?
unknown (03:55):
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (03:56):
Um, because it right, it had there's no
exception.
There's no he loves everybodybut the gays, or he loves
everybody but the no loveseverybody.
Okay, that is our equivalent.
Perfect love is we accept all,we love all, we do not judge.
(04:18):
Okay.
The challenging part for mostgroups is, and this is where
coven worship can be difficult,right?
How do you apply that forsomeone you've just met?
You don't know them.
So the the way I've always seenthis, and I mean again, I'm
(04:41):
bringing in other philosophies,but it's just to illustrate, you
know, the concept of namaste isbasically my spirit acknowledges
your spirit.
Right.
Right.
I see you, I recognize you as abeing in front of me, a being of
light, a being of soul, a beingof the divine.
SPEAKER_04 (05:03):
Of the divine in front of me and yes.
SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
So again, same thing.
That's how I view perfect love.
I may not know you, but itdoesn't mean I can't love you,
respect you.
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (05:19):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (05:20):
Now, perfect trust.
SPEAKER_04 (05:22):
Let's flip that calling.
SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
So again, there's a within and a without.
The within of perfect trust isknowing yourself, trusting your
instincts, your skill, yourability, your mind, your
emotions.
SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
To not be scared that someone might not like what
you have to say.
SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
Also, to not stifle or try to control your own
urges, beliefs, ideas as theymanifest, to not judge yourself,
right?
SPEAKER_05 (06:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (06:11):
So many people fall into that trap of we judge
ourselves, we judge ouremotions, right?
Oh, I'm angry right now.
That's bad.
I shouldn't be mad.
Why?
Who says?
Be mad.
If you're mad, be mad.
SPEAKER_04 (06:25):
There's nothing wrong with being mad.
SPEAKER_03 (06:27):
Acknowledge it.
Trust yourself.
SPEAKER_04 (06:30):
No, no, no, no.
Again, why being mad?
There's nothing wrong with beingmad.
Now going over and beating thecrap out of your coworker is a
different thing.
SPEAKER_03 (06:37):
That is completely different.
Exactly.
Trusting your body and your mindto process and to experience
things as it needs to is a bigpart of that.
SPEAKER_05 (06:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:52):
In magic, it's trusting your ability, trusting
your knowledge base, trustingyour instant, again, all of it.
So it's trust in the self.
In circle, this is where it getstricky.
SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (07:07):
Perfect trust, ideally, from a Covenstead
standpoint, is I trust thepeople in this circle so much
that I can disclose my deepest,darkest fears, thoughts,
(07:28):
concerns, whatever that may be,right, free of judgment.
I can freely share my emotionswith the group.
And it's also trusting thateverybody else here is on the
same page, has the same agenda,has the same motives, and
(07:52):
doesn't mean anyone else anyharm.
Right.
Whoo, that's asking a lot.
It it actually is.
This is why so many covens areclosed knit and guarded.
SPEAKER_04 (08:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (08:10):
Something that people mistake often is that
there is a big differencebetween a coven and a circle.
SPEAKER_04 (08:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (08:19):
A covenstead, by definition, is a group of people
who grow spiritually, magically,intellectually together, and
they do workings together.
A circle is a group of peoplethat need to observe.
Right.
It is religious observation andit is religious reverence.
(08:42):
Yeah.
It's not the same thingnecessarily.
Like I would venture to say, youknow, and again, this is one of
the reasons why Life Temple doesnot use the term coven.
We are a circle.
SPEAKER_04 (08:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
Yeah.
I don't have to know that theperson next to me has the exact
same beliefs or ideas or motivesas I do.
SPEAKER_04 (09:06):
No, we have enough ideas that we can be in this
space together.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
Yes.
But at the same time, I'm notworking a route with you that is
dependent upon yourparticipation and your energies
mingling so perfectly with minein that moment.
SPEAKER_04 (09:25):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:26):
Yeah.
Trust is a hard one.
There's also something to besaid for we trust each other
enough that we have each other'sback.
We trust the people in circleenough to know that if I catch
my sleeve on fire, you're gonnaput me out.
Yes.
Or better yet, you're gonnacatch it before my sleeve goes
(09:48):
up in flames.
Right.
You know, and help.
SPEAKER_04 (09:50):
And help.
SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
It is I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04 (09:55):
Me having my hands grabbed or something in the
middle of ritual does notsurprise me as many times as I
reach over candles.
SPEAKER_03 (10:03):
But it's concerning, right?
Because this is why so manytraditionalists don't like open
circles.
No, we find it very difficult tobe able to have perfect trust
when we don't know anybody.
SPEAKER_04 (10:21):
Right.
And again, it's it's hard for usto sometimes let down our guard.
SPEAKER_03 (10:25):
Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_04 (10:26):
That allows us to access greater things.
SPEAKER_03 (10:31):
Absolutely.
Nine times out of ten, if I amin a visiting circle, not my
own, I am not a participant, Iam an observer.
Right.
Because to participate meansthat level of trust that I
probably don't have.
So instead, I would rather cutmyself off from the spiritual
(10:57):
and just maintain an observer'sposition.
SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
And and we're we're talking about us doing this with
covens that we are close to andtrust.
SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
Yeah, trust, trust in so much that I am not gonna
question what they're doing orwhy.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And and I feel comfortable beingin that space.
But I mean, I've been to opencircles where I'm like, I don't
know what's going on, and Idon't like this.
I don't like this.
SPEAKER_04 (11:26):
And the minute why am I craving a cigarette?
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Uh yeah, the minute that thought crosses my mind of
I don't like this, I go, Oh, Idon't trust this.
No, it's really what that means.
Yes, because I'm distrusting ofsome of these practices or this
situation.
That's not good.
No.
Um, I don't often find myself inthat position anymore because
that was really as a a witchlingand learning and experiencing
(11:52):
different things.
SPEAKER_04 (11:53):
But is there a danger to trusting so much that
you will walk into anyone'scircle?
SPEAKER_03 (11:59):
Yes.
Some people are just they bounceforward with that idea so wholly
that they don't stop to thinkabout whether or not they agree
with what's going on until it'stoo late.
SPEAKER_05 (12:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:15):
And then they're kind of in the middle of like,
oh crap, well, I'm here, so Idon't do I just go with the
flow.
SPEAKER_04 (12:21):
Do I go with the flow?
I mean, they they they they justdid quarter calls and called the
demons of where's the exit.
SPEAKER_03 (12:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, and you know, that's part ofit is that the the concept that
we live by should be one where,like you or I, for as long as
we've been doing this, wouldhave no problem at that point
going, I need a door cut.
(12:49):
Yeah.
Uh I need I need to exit.
SPEAKER_04 (12:52):
Right.
And and and again, I and no, nooffense for what I'm about to
say.
I'm a third degree.
You have two choices.
Either you let me out or I'mdoing it myself.
SPEAKER_03 (13:03):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
I was just gonna say that.
It's a courtesy at that point toask you to open the door.
SPEAKER_04 (13:10):
Right.
Because if you don't, I will.
And when I do it, you won't likeit.
SPEAKER_03 (13:14):
Yeah, you will not like it.
Um versus, right?
There's many people, again,they're newer, they don't have
that kind of experience.
They're too afraid to ask.
SPEAKER_04 (13:31):
Well, we even tell people when they're coming, even
to the even though we've metwith you and already told you it
is the first day of ritual,we're gonna sit down and we're
gonna go, hey, if at any timeyou feel uncomfortable, stop us
and ask us to cut you a door andwe will let you out.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Because here's the thing that people misunderstand.
When we give a person thatoption, it's not for you, it's
for us.
Because if you find yourselfnervous, apprehensive,
distrusting, unsure, you'reaffecting the rest of us.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're now influencing us,and we don't want it.
(14:10):
We don't want it.
Right.
So it's so much easier to dothat.
SPEAKER_04 (14:14):
It's also often and to make it even worse, most
temples will sit there and tellyou, there's no problem with
this.
We would prefer you to do this.
SPEAKER_03 (14:24):
Absolutely.
It's also why we often say topeople, if you've never been
inside of circle, you have theoption to just observe for the
first one.
If so, you know, feel free totake it.
We're not gonna force you tocome into circle.
No, it's so much easier than thealternative.
I remember being very nervous atsome rituals because of
(14:49):
uncertainty and a lack ofknowledge and you know, all of
that.
I remember being at Lord Oswin'sinitiation as a first degree
myself and being in a, you know,we were guests at a much larger
group.
And I remember just thinking tomyself over and over and over
(15:11):
again, you're just here towatch.
SPEAKER_04 (15:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (15:14):
You're a witness, you're not doing anything, you
don't have, you're notparticipating in any way.
You're literally a courteousobserver because it was so alien
to me.
So many things that they weredoing were so alien to me
because it wasn't my tradition.
Um, yeah, I mean, I rememberbeing like, oh, what's going on?
SPEAKER_04 (15:37):
Um, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Let me put it you this way.
I remember taking you to yourfirst gather.
SPEAKER_03 (15:42):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:43):
Oh my God.
I could, if I could have peeledyou away from me.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
Here's the thing.
The gather, too.
I mean, and that's what's funny.
Again, this is where it's sointeresting because that
experience to me, it was so itwas so eclectic.
Yes, I found it funny.
Yeah, I found it kind of as a asa traditionalist, I found it
(16:09):
kind of bleh.
I didn't like it.
I didn't particularly respectit, which I know, I know it's
not the best, but that's myopinion.
That's that's again, you as afirst degree, I didn't like the
differences, I didn't find themappealing, but I could see why
(16:32):
other people did.
So I was just like, all right,fine.
But being in the house ofanother traditional group and
not wanting to offend ordisrespect, or you know, I was
like, I just wanted to make surewe bring it up.
SPEAKER_04 (16:46):
There, there is a slight difference, huge in that
huge difference.
SPEAKER_03 (16:51):
I mean, because again, in one circumstance, like
in a gatherer like that, thereare no rules, there are no
expectations, your conduct isnot being scrutinized, you're
plain clothed most of the time,nobody really cares.
When you are a guest in thehouse of another group, you are
(17:13):
expected to behave a certainway, and you know that you're
being observed.
You know that, yes, eyes are onyou to some extent.
SPEAKER_04 (17:23):
You you you realize that after this, there are going
to be people sitting theregoing, Hey, did you see what?
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, you know, it's it'sit's different.
It's it is very different.
But perfect love and perfecttrust can also relate to our
relationship with the gods.
SPEAKER_04 (17:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
It's not just about our interaction and our
interplay, it's how we view thedivine.
If you don't have perfect loveand perfect trust for deity,
what are you doing here?
SPEAKER_04 (17:58):
I mean, just to say it.
SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
Yeah, it's then this isn't for you.
SPEAKER_04 (18:04):
You you you're you're barking up the wrong
trait here.
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
Right, right.
I mean, how can you not?
This is also where and why, youknow, again, we have a multitude
of deities to choose from foraspects and to be connected to
and with.
But, you know, me personally,yeah, there's some deities I'm
(18:26):
less trusting of than others,right?
Um, I will never, ever call upona trickster god.
Sorry.
I just don't trust you.
Why would I?
SPEAKER_04 (18:41):
Would the trickster part of their yes be the be the
main reason here that you mighthave an issue?
SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
I mean, that's what I'm saying.
Like you you represent somethingthat already is chaos, yes, and
has me disrespecting you.
So or or not disrespecting isthe wrong word.
I acknowledge your power, but Idon't trust you.
SPEAKER_04 (19:04):
And and I tremble at that power, and I realize you
have that, but it's the same wayI would look at a grizzly bear,
right?
SPEAKER_03 (19:13):
I respect your power, but I don't trust that
you're not going to attack me.
Yes.
I do not trust that I caninteract with you in a safe way.
So why would I?
SPEAKER_04 (19:25):
Uh just saying.
SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
Yeah.
I'll be right back.
SPEAKER_04 (19:27):
Because I'm I'm I'm gonna be honest, for as southern
as I am, I still cannotremember.
Black, do you run, or is itbrown, you run?
Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03 (19:34):
I have to stop, drop, and roll.
I don't know.
Play dead, run, beep, whatever.
Yeah.
The other, you know, componentis um, but there are many
instances like that.
There are many situations wherean entity, a deity, we have to
(19:56):
have trust, respect, love forthat.
SPEAKER_04 (20:01):
And and and that trust has to be in oneself, not
because again, if you can'ttrust yourself, how are you
gonna trust anybody else?
SPEAKER_03 (20:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:10):
All right, let's go with RuPaul.
If you can't love yourself,yeah, how are you gonna love
anybody else?
I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_03 (20:17):
There's there's a lot to it, and so many people
see it solely as an externalthing for the other people
within the group.
No, not necessarily.
I mean, I can love you and notlike you, right?
I can I can love you and Okay,that's mainly directed at me.
(20:39):
No, it's not directed at you,but but we have had moments for
sure.
But yeah, I can I can love youand not like you.
I can um I can trust you, butalso from afar.
SPEAKER_05 (20:53):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (20:53):
You know, yeah.
It so why would craft be anydifferent?
SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
It it's not.
SPEAKER_03 (21:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
Because again, craft is supposed to be a reflection
of life.
SPEAKER_03 (21:05):
It is.
And you know, a great um,there's a great analogy here, I
think, that's in our lectureseries where we talk about like
a child, you know, we look at achild as something of love and
innocence and and right, and agreat potential and right.
But right give a two-year-old ora toddler the ability to use the
(21:32):
stove and see what happens.
Oh can you trust?
No, no, no, so it's atwo-year-old.
What do you expect?
So, I mean, those are the thingswe have to look at.
Right.
And we have to recognize, andand life is full of that.
(21:54):
Um, there's so many experiencesin life that tell us we have to
build earn trust and othersituations.
No, you just don't even try.
No.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (22:05):
So you know what I do trust?
unknown (22:08):
Coffee.
Coffee.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Peg and Coffee Talk is broughtto you by Life Temple and
Seminary.
Please visit us at Life TempleSeminary.org for more
information, as well as links toour social media: Facebook,
Discord, Twitter, YouTube, andReddit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
We travel down this trodden path a maze of stone and
mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires, and so
it is the end of our days, sowalk with me till morning
(22:52):
breaks, and so it is the end ofour days, so walk with me till
morning.
Welcome to Peggy and Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content, pleaseconsider donating and following
our socials.
SPEAKER_03 (00:24):
All right.
Let's talk about another one ofthose terms which is like to
throw around a whole bunch.
SPEAKER_04 (00:31):
Oh yeah?
Really?
Which one?
SPEAKER_03 (00:33):
Perfect love and perfect trust.
Perfect love.
unknown (00:36):
Perfect.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
What does it mean?
SPEAKER_04 (00:39):
Well, it means perfect love and perfect trust.
What do you expect it to mean?
SPEAKER_03 (00:45):
Ha ha ha.
What does it represent?
How about that?
SPEAKER_04 (00:49):
So what would you consider perfect love?
SPEAKER_03 (00:55):
So perfect love is acceptance.
It is accepting someone as theyare, for who they are, for what
they are, with no expectationsand no ideas to the contrary.
SPEAKER_04 (01:16):
No expectations to change, no expectations to do or
to expect.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
It is literally being able to respect and love a
person as they are.
SPEAKER_04 (01:31):
I see it as the lack of fear to be yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (01:35):
Okay, well that's part of that, sure.
SPEAKER_04 (01:37):
That that you, that I, that perfect love to me is
that I feel comfortable enoughto be 100% myself inside that
circle.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
Well, sure.
Because if you are beingaccepted as you are, right,
without fear, without judgment,without any other expectation,
yes, you are free to beyourself.
SPEAKER_04 (02:02):
Well, I guess my question would be there is is
that perfect love something weget from someone else or
something we get from ourselves?
SPEAKER_03 (02:10):
Are you with me?
I think when it comes to there'stwo different, there's two
different viewpoints here.
Right.
There's the generality ofperfect love and perfect trust,
which should come from the self.
It should come from within.
The external component ofperfect love and perfect trust
(02:33):
is inside of circle.
And inside of circle, it isvalidated by others.
Outside of circle, it isvalidated in yourself.
And that's where it gets tricky.
SPEAKER_04 (02:50):
Let's explain this.
How do we get validation insidecircle like this?
Well, and I know a lot of peopleare probably sitting back going,
uh but but but again, it issomething you have to think
about for a second.
SPEAKER_03 (03:05):
Absolutely.
I mean, look, I think perfectlove is our equivalent or our
way of to use another tradition,Jesus loves you.
SPEAKER_04 (03:16):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Because the statement is so simple but so
powerful, right?
Jesus loves you.
Jesus loves you no matter what.
Jesus loves you as you are,Jesus loves you in whatever form
you come in, whatever yourcircumstance, whatever your
station, whatever color, all ofit, all of it, all of it.
(03:39):
And my favorite, one of myfavorite memes is Jesus lining
up a bunch of people andsmacking them and saying, What
part of I love everyone didn'tyou understand?
unknown (03:55):
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (03:56):
Um, because it right, it had there's no
exception.
There's no he loves everybodybut the gays, or he loves
everybody but the no loveseverybody.
Okay, that is our equivalent.
Perfect love is we accept all,we love all, we do not judge.
(04:18):
Okay.
The challenging part for mostgroups is, and this is where
coven worship can be difficult,right?
How do you apply that forsomeone you've just met?
You don't know them.
So the the way I've always seenthis, and I mean again, I'm
(04:41):
bringing in other philosophies,but it's just to illustrate, you
know, the concept of namaste isbasically my spirit acknowledges
your spirit.
Right.
Right.
I see you, I recognize you as abeing in front of me, a being of
light, a being of soul, a beingof the divine.
SPEAKER_04 (05:03):
Of the divine in front of me and yes.
SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
So again, same thing.
That's how I view perfect love.
I may not know you, but itdoesn't mean I can't love you,
respect you.
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (05:19):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (05:20):
Now, perfect trust.
SPEAKER_04 (05:22):
Let's flip that calling.
SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
So again, there's a within and a without.
The within of perfect trust isknowing yourself, trusting your
instincts, your skill, yourability, your mind, your
emotions.
SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
To not be scared that someone might not like what
you have to say.
SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
Also, to not stifle or try to control your own
urges, beliefs, ideas as theymanifest, to not judge yourself,
right?
SPEAKER_05 (06:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (06:11):
So many people fall into that trap of we judge
ourselves, we judge ouremotions, right?
Oh, I'm angry right now.
That's bad.
I shouldn't be mad.
Why?
Who says?
Be mad.
If you're mad, be mad.
SPEAKER_04 (06:25):
There's nothing wrong with being mad.
SPEAKER_03 (06:27):
Acknowledge it.
Trust yourself.
SPEAKER_04 (06:30):
No, no, no, no.
Again, why being mad?
There's nothing wrong with beingmad.
Now going over and beating thecrap out of your coworker is a
different thing.
SPEAKER_03 (06:37):
That is completely different.
Exactly.
Trusting your body and your mindto process and to experience
things as it needs to is a bigpart of that.
SPEAKER_05 (06:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:52):
In magic, it's trusting your ability, trusting
your knowledge base, trustingyour instant, again, all of it.
So it's trust in the self.
In circle, this is where it getstricky.
SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (07:07):
Perfect trust, ideally, from a Covenstead
standpoint, is I trust thepeople in this circle so much
that I can disclose my deepest,darkest fears, thoughts,
(07:28):
concerns, whatever that may be,right, free of judgment.
I can freely share my emotionswith the group.
And it's also trusting thateverybody else here is on the
same page, has the same agenda,has the same motives, and
(07:52):
doesn't mean anyone else anyharm.
Right.
Whoo, that's asking a lot.
It it actually is.
This is why so many covens areclosed knit and guarded.
SPEAKER_04 (08:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (08:10):
Something that people mistake often is that
there is a big differencebetween a coven and a circle.
SPEAKER_04 (08:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (08:19):
A covenstead, by definition, is a group of people
who grow spiritually, magically,intellectually together, and
they do workings together.
A circle is a group of peoplethat need to observe.
Right.
It is religious observation andit is religious reverence.
(08:42):
Yeah.
It's not the same thingnecessarily.
Like I would venture to say, youknow, and again, this is one of
the reasons why Life Temple doesnot use the term coven.
We are a circle.
SPEAKER_04 (08:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
Yeah.
I don't have to know that theperson next to me has the exact
same beliefs or ideas or motivesas I do.
SPEAKER_04 (09:06):
No, we have enough ideas that we can be in this
space together.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
Yes.
But at the same time, I'm notworking a route with you that is
dependent upon yourparticipation and your energies
mingling so perfectly with minein that moment.
SPEAKER_04 (09:25):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:26):
Yeah.
Trust is a hard one.
There's also something to besaid for we trust each other
enough that we have each other'sback.
We trust the people in circleenough to know that if I catch
my sleeve on fire, you're gonnaput me out.
Yes.
Or better yet, you're gonnacatch it before my sleeve goes
(09:48):
up in flames.
Right.
You know, and help.
SPEAKER_04 (09:50):
And help.
SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
It is I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04 (09:55):
Me having my hands grabbed or something in the
middle of ritual does notsurprise me as many times as I
reach over candles.
SPEAKER_03 (10:03):
But it's concerning, right?
Because this is why so manytraditionalists don't like open
circles.
No, we find it very difficult tobe able to have perfect trust
when we don't know anybody.
SPEAKER_04 (10:21):
Right.
And again, it's it's hard for usto sometimes let down our guard.
SPEAKER_03 (10:25):
Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_04 (10:26):
That allows us to access greater things.
SPEAKER_03 (10:31):
Absolutely.
Nine times out of ten, if I amin a visiting circle, not my
own, I am not a participant, Iam an observer.
Right.
Because to participate meansthat level of trust that I
probably don't have.
So instead, I would rather cutmyself off from the spiritual
(10:57):
and just maintain an observer'sposition.
SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
And and we're we're talking about us doing this with
covens that we are close to andtrust.
SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
Yeah, trust, trust in so much that I am not gonna
question what they're doing orwhy.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And and I feel comfortable beingin that space.
But I mean, I've been to opencircles where I'm like, I don't
know what's going on, and Idon't like this.
I don't like this.
SPEAKER_04 (11:26):
And the minute why am I craving a cigarette?
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Uh yeah, the minute that thought crosses my mind of
I don't like this, I go, Oh, Idon't trust this.
No, it's really what that means.
Yes, because I'm distrusting ofsome of these practices or this
situation.
That's not good.
No.
Um, I don't often find myself inthat position anymore because
that was really as a a witchlingand learning and experiencing
(11:52):
different things.
SPEAKER_04 (11:53):
But is there a danger to trusting so much that
you will walk into anyone'scircle?
SPEAKER_03 (11:59):
Yes.
Some people are just they bounceforward with that idea so wholly
that they don't stop to thinkabout whether or not they agree
with what's going on until it'stoo late.
SPEAKER_05 (12:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:15):
And then they're kind of in the middle of like,
oh crap, well, I'm here, so Idon't do I just go with the
flow.
SPEAKER_04 (12:21):
Do I go with the flow?
I mean, they they they they justdid quarter calls and called the
demons of where's the exit.
SPEAKER_03 (12:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, and you know, that's part ofit is that the the concept that
we live by should be one where,like you or I, for as long as
we've been doing this, wouldhave no problem at that point
going, I need a door cut.
(12:49):
Yeah.
Uh I need I need to exit.
SPEAKER_04 (12:52):
Right.
And and and again, I and no, nooffense for what I'm about to
say.
I'm a third degree.
You have two choices.
Either you let me out or I'mdoing it myself.
SPEAKER_03 (13:03):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
I was just gonna say that.
It's a courtesy at that point toask you to open the door.
SPEAKER_04 (13:10):
Right.
Because if you don't, I will.
And when I do it, you won't likeit.
SPEAKER_03 (13:14):
Yeah, you will not like it.
Um versus, right?
There's many people, again,they're newer, they don't have
that kind of experience.
They're too afraid to ask.
SPEAKER_04 (13:31):
Well, we even tell people when they're coming, even
to the even though we've metwith you and already told you it
is the first day of ritual,we're gonna sit down and we're
gonna go, hey, if at any timeyou feel uncomfortable, stop us
and ask us to cut you a door andwe will let you out.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
Because here's the thing that people misunderstand.
When we give a person thatoption, it's not for you, it's
for us.
Because if you find yourselfnervous, apprehensive,
distrusting, unsure, you'reaffecting the rest of us.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're now influencing us,and we don't want it.
(14:10):
We don't want it.
Right.
So it's so much easier to dothat.
SPEAKER_04 (14:14):
It's also often and to make it even worse, most
temples will sit there and tellyou, there's no problem with
this.
We would prefer you to do this.
SPEAKER_03 (14:24):
Absolutely.
It's also why we often say topeople, if you've never been
inside of circle, you have theoption to just observe for the
first one.
If so, you know, feel free totake it.
We're not gonna force you tocome into circle.
No, it's so much easier than thealternative.
I remember being very nervous atsome rituals because of
(14:49):
uncertainty and a lack ofknowledge and you know, all of
that.
I remember being at Lord Oswin'sinitiation as a first degree
myself and being in a, you know,we were guests at a much larger
group.
And I remember just thinking tomyself over and over and over
(15:11):
again, you're just here towatch.
SPEAKER_04 (15:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (15:14):
You're a witness, you're not doing anything, you
don't have, you're notparticipating in any way.
You're literally a courteousobserver because it was so alien
to me.
So many things that they weredoing were so alien to me
because it wasn't my tradition.
Um, yeah, I mean, I rememberbeing like, oh, what's going on?
SPEAKER_04 (15:37):
Um, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Let me put it you this way.
I remember taking you to yourfirst gather.
SPEAKER_03 (15:42):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:43):
Oh my God.
I could, if I could have peeledyou away from me.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
Here's the thing.
The gather, too.
I mean, and that's what's funny.
Again, this is where it's sointeresting because that
experience to me, it was so itwas so eclectic.
Yes, I found it funny.
Yeah, I found it kind of as a asa traditionalist, I found it
(16:09):
kind of bleh.
I didn't like it.
I didn't particularly respectit, which I know, I know it's
not the best, but that's myopinion.
That's that's again, you as afirst degree, I didn't like the
differences, I didn't find themappealing, but I could see why
(16:32):
other people did.
So I was just like, all right,fine.
But being in the house ofanother traditional group and
not wanting to offend ordisrespect, or you know, I was
like, I just wanted to make surewe bring it up.
SPEAKER_04 (16:46):
There, there is a slight difference, huge in that
huge difference.
SPEAKER_03 (16:51):
I mean, because again, in one circumstance, like
in a gatherer like that, thereare no rules, there are no
expectations, your conduct isnot being scrutinized, you're
plain clothed most of the time,nobody really cares.
When you are a guest in thehouse of another group, you are
(17:13):
expected to behave a certainway, and you know that you're
being observed.
You know that, yes, eyes are onyou to some extent.
SPEAKER_04 (17:23):
You you you realize that after this, there are going
to be people sitting theregoing, Hey, did you see what?
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, you know, it's it'sit's different.
It's it is very different.
But perfect love and perfecttrust can also relate to our
relationship with the gods.
SPEAKER_04 (17:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
It's not just about our interaction and our
interplay, it's how we view thedivine.
If you don't have perfect loveand perfect trust for deity,
what are you doing here?
SPEAKER_04 (17:58):
I mean, just to say it.
SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
Yeah, it's then this isn't for you.
SPEAKER_04 (18:04):
You you you're you're barking up the wrong
trait here.
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
Right, right.
I mean, how can you not?
This is also where and why, youknow, again, we have a multitude
of deities to choose from foraspects and to be connected to
and with.
But, you know, me personally,yeah, there's some deities I'm
(18:26):
less trusting of than others,right?
Um, I will never, ever call upona trickster god.
Sorry.
I just don't trust you.
Why would I?
SPEAKER_04 (18:41):
Would the trickster part of their yes be the be the
main reason here that you mighthave an issue?
SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
I mean, that's what I'm saying.
Like you you represent somethingthat already is chaos, yes, and
has me disrespecting you.
So or or not disrespecting isthe wrong word.
I acknowledge your power, but Idon't trust you.
SPEAKER_04 (19:04):
And and I tremble at that power, and I realize you
have that, but it's the same wayI would look at a grizzly bear,
right?
SPEAKER_03 (19:13):
I respect your power, but I don't trust that
you're not going to attack me.
Yes.
I do not trust that I caninteract with you in a safe way.
So why would I?
SPEAKER_04 (19:25):
Uh just saying.
SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
Yeah.
I'll be right back.
SPEAKER_04 (19:27):
Because I'm I'm I'm gonna be honest, for as southern
as I am, I still cannotremember.
Black, do you run, or is itbrown, you run?
Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03 (19:34):
I have to stop, drop, and roll.
I don't know.
Play dead, run, beep, whatever.
Yeah.
The other, you know, componentis um, but there are many
instances like that.
There are many situations wherean entity, a deity, we have to
(19:56):
have trust, respect, love forthat.
SPEAKER_04 (20:01):
And and and that trust has to be in oneself, not
because again, if you can'ttrust yourself, how are you
gonna trust anybody else?
SPEAKER_03 (20:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:10):
All right, let's go with RuPaul.
If you can't love yourself,yeah, how are you gonna love
anybody else?
I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_03 (20:17):
There's there's a lot to it, and so many people
see it solely as an externalthing for the other people
within the group.
No, not necessarily.
I mean, I can love you and notlike you, right?
I can I can love you and Okay,that's mainly directed at me.
(20:39):
No, it's not directed at you,but but we have had moments for
sure.
But yeah, I can I can love youand not like you.
I can um I can trust you, butalso from afar.
SPEAKER_05 (20:53):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (20:53):
You know, yeah.
It so why would craft be anydifferent?
SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
It it's not.
SPEAKER_03 (21:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
Because again, craft is supposed to be a reflection
of life.
SPEAKER_03 (21:05):
It is.
And you know, a great um,there's a great analogy here, I
think, that's in our lectureseries where we talk about like
a child, you know, we look at achild as something of love and
innocence and and right, and agreat potential and right.
But right give a two-year-old ora toddler the ability to use the
(21:32):
stove and see what happens.
Oh can you trust?
No, no, no, so it's atwo-year-old.
What do you expect?
So, I mean, those are the thingswe have to look at.
Right.
And we have to recognize, andand life is full of that.
(21:54):
Um, there's so many experiencesin life that tell us we have to
build earn trust and othersituations.
No, you just don't even try.
No.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (22:05):
So you know what I do trust?
unknown (22:08):
Coffee.
Coffee.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Peg and Coffee Talk is broughtto you by Life Temple and
Seminary.
Please visit us at Life TempleSeminary.org for more
information, as well as links toour social media: Facebook,
Discord, Twitter, YouTube, andReddit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
We travel down this trodden path a maze of stone and
mire.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires, and so
it is the end of our days, sowalk with me till morning
(22:52):
breaks, and so it is the end ofour days, so walk with me till
morning.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.