July 9, 2025 • 28 mins
Ever wondered why paganism gets mistakenly labeled as devil worship? The persistent myth that pagan traditions somehow exist in opposition to Christianity has deep historical roots that continue to cause misunderstanding today. What historians now recognize as economic persecution was disguised as religious righteousness.
Meanwhile, actual pagan beliefs center around animism—the concept that everything contains spirit or energy—and achieving balance with nature. This nuanced position is frequently misunderstood by Christians who equate rejection of Christ's divinity with opposition to Christianity itself.
Encouragingly, younger generations show increasing understanding that paganism stands on its own spiritual foundation rather than in opposition to any other religion, although misconceptions still persist.
How might your own spiritual journey be enriched by understanding the diverse ways humans connect with the divine? Listen now and share your thoughts!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
All right, coffee refilled.
Okay, today's topic.
Why does everyone think or noteveryone, but a lot of people, I
guess why does everyone thinkthat paganism or witchcraft,
wicca is the antithesis,antithesis, yeah yeah, I love
that word and antithesisopposite of christianity it's
(00:51):
such a good question and thishas been going on for a long
time it is.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I mean because even when we look at uh satanism, it
doesn't always seem to be Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It is though.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
But it is.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Mm-hmm.
So let's start by laying outthe basics, right, all right.
So the opposite of Christianity, right, right, we?
(01:33):
Actually, even if you're not aChristian, you probably know
more about this than you realizefrom pop culture and definitely
from horror movies.
Right, the opposite ofchristianity, okay, instead of
worshiping the upper, force orthe heavenly celestial right,
right um deity, and all thethings that go with it.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
It is the underworld and it is the hellscape and
obviously the devil who residesthere, right, right.
Instead of having a Messiah, aChrist, a son of God, we have an
anti-Christ Right, the son ofthe we have an anti-Christ, the
(02:09):
son of the devil, right, insteadof having apostles, there are.
This is what's wild.
There are.
The devil technically does haveapostles.
Yeah, there is a host of demonsthat act as his 12.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
And just to remind everybody, those demons used to
be angels that got thrown outwith him.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
They're all fallen angels.
Exactly, the Ten Commandmentsbecome this sort of bastardized
do whatever the heck you want,with no regard for anyone or
anything.
Interestingly though, the TenCommandments are where it gets a
(02:51):
little bit muddy, becausetechnically, if we want to be
technical, the Ten Commandmentsare not Christian, they're
Judaic.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So they kind of sort of don't count, but they're in
there somewhere too.
What else?
There's all of the dogma, allof the rules of Christianity are
basically yeah, invert them,right, that's it.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It's an inversion of everything, and that is what is
considered heresy, along with abunch of other stuff.
But you know, but that's theorigin.
That's the origin of the, thebelief or the idea of a heretic
right so okay but we're pagans,right, we're not pagans don't
(03:43):
typically, and I'm going to saytypically because I'm not going
to speak for all, but I mean,I'm sure there's a few out there
.
Yeah right.
Pagans don't typically believein the devil.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Because most pagans also don't necessarily believe
in the Christian version of God.
No, and they don't necessarilybelieve in the christian version
of god.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
no, and they don't necessarily believe in the
messiah either well, we don'tnecessarily believe in the whole
heaven and hell thing either wehave a variation or our own
conception of it, but it's verydifferent than that of
christianity.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Um, the thing I always find funny is is okay.
So the Jesus question?
Right, because so many pagansare often asked by family
members, right, you know, do youstill believe in Jesus?
And you know, my answer, formany years, was always the same
yes, I believe he was a verynice man.
Yes, for many years was alwaysthe same.
Yes, I believe he was a verynice man.
(04:44):
Yes, do I believe he was theson of God in the way that
Christianity portrays him?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Not, really, I mean to get down to it we take more
of like the Jewish view ofChrist, or even when he was just
a teacher.
He was a person and yeah oreven the Muslim right.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
He was a prophet of sorts, maybe.
Maybe, yeah, but I don't seehim as the way he is personified
in Christianity.
But yes, but I do think he wasa very nice man and I think he
had some lovely ideas andteachings.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I mean, I'm not going to go around and bash the
religion just because no, not atall.
You know.
I'm not going to go around andbash the religion just because
you know I don't see where inthe world that becomes helpful
at all.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Do I believe that you know really?
I mean, I think, the ultimatequestion.
I think, when a lot ofChristians ask, do you?
believe in Jesus really comesdown to?
Do you believe that Jesus diedfor our sins?
Sins, no, I don't, because Idon't believe in sin.
I believe in guilt.
I believe in emotion.
(05:50):
So, yes, I mean, okay, goodthing that you brought that up.
Well, okay, I believe in guilt.
Sure, I believe that sin iswhatever in your heart you know
to be wrong.
Yes, is whatever in your heartyou know to be wrong?
(06:11):
Yes, if it makes you feelguilty and it plagues you, you
do a bad tang, yeah, and youshould say you're sorry and fiss
it, yeah like that's it like Iknow how, how infantile that
sounds, hence the voice.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
But yeah, um but it's exactly right right other
christian ideals.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I don't believe that we are born sinners.
I don't believe that we areinherently.
I don't believe that withoutthe christian concept of rights,
like baptism right, that I willbe condemned to hell.
Right or you will not beallowed into heaven because you
haven't done these things.
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
None of these things resonate with me that I will be
condemned to hell, right, or youwill not be allowed into heaven
because you haven't done thesethings.
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
None of these things resonate with me.
So yeah, so most pagans believein a concept of animism that
goes way.
I mean, we're talking, we'regoing back to cave people of the
idea that everything has aspirit right, we interact with
(07:12):
those spirits right, animateobjects, inanimate objects,
everything effectively has apiece of an energetic soul of
some sort, and as do we, rightand our job is to function
within the natural world.
We strive for balance.
We look to understand ourselvesand understand our inner most
(07:41):
beliefs, desires, doctrines foreach individual.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And we don't judge, we don't pass judgment just
because another person's beliefthat something is right for them
, if we think it's wrong for us,that's all there is to it.
Cool, it's right for you, it'swrong for me.
Proceed, yeah, life goes on,that's it.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Like most pagans, I know we don't believe there's
anything wrong with the world.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
No, I don't think the world needs fixing.
I do think that man definitelyhas detrimental effects on the
planet.
But she will course correct.
I trust in her to take care ofit.
And if that means wiping out awhole bunch of us whoopsie, I
mean, I'm all right with that.
You know, if I get swallowed upby the ocean, I'm good.
(08:31):
I'm good, yeah, I'm.
I'm perfectly okay with that.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
If nature wants to reclaim me, okay all right, this
is not a force you can fightwith.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
No, no, might as well , just accept it.
Gosh, what else?
Where did they get the idea?
Where did it come from?
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Where did this come from when we just sat here and
described how these are not?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, all right, let's talk.
History Is this more popculture crap, no.
So unfortunately, a lot of itcomes from the fact that, all
right, we got it, we got to goback a ways here.
So a lot of it stems from, Ibelieve, the 1500s.
(09:21):
Up until about that time, theChristian church, the church at
large, had not defined the devil.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
No.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
We didn't know what he looked like, we didn't know
what his form was Right and inthe 1500s or about that time is
when the church basicallydecreed what the devil was, and
effectively they took an imagevery similar to Baphomet.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
The goat man horned god-esque, yeah, pagan deity and
said that's him.
Right and deity and said that'shim right.
(10:17):
This also led to a situationwhere, during the witch trials,
part of what the, the and I meanwe're not going to get too far
down this rabbit hole, but but abig, big part of persecuting
witches and being able to defineheresy was communion with the
devil.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
That witches were, in whatever way, talking to him,
working with him, working forhim, communing with him, etc.
Etc.
Right, etc, etc, right.
And that really started thisnotion, because the problem was
it during the burning times andthe inquisition, and right the,
(10:55):
the persecution of witches as awhole.
The thing that people need toremember is it had nothing to do
with spirituality and it reallyhad nothing to do with religion
.
It was about land and wealth yesso if you had a healer in town,
uh, an herbalist, let's say andI mean we're using modern day
(11:17):
terms to describe I mean theydidn't call themselves
herbalists back then but if youhad somebody who was something
of an herbalist and they had afarm where they grew their herbs
and it was a decent amount ofland and it was well cultivated
and it was well taken care of,and people in the village went
to this person when they neededa particular salve or a healing
ointment or whatever it was.
(11:39):
Their land was valuable, yes,okay.
Well, there's nothing in theBible that makes you condemnable
because you made someone asalve Right or a tincture or an
ointment, so they had to come upwith something that linked
(12:01):
these individuals to something.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
that was the antithesis of Christianity,
which equaled heresy.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And there it was.
So that's the situation in anutshell.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
And it prevailed All the way up to today, yes, where
we still have people looking atus going.
Well, y'all worship devils.
What?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I have stood in Marie Laveau's.
Well, it's called MarieLaveau's.
It's a shop in New Orleans onBourbon Street.
There's actually two locations.
It is Marie Laveau's House ofVoodoo.
It is registered as a legalchurch.
They have multiple propertiesand locations and it is a voodoo
(12:45):
cultural center.
Don't get me wrong.
Yes, they make money.
They sell a lot of stuff.
They have to to be able toafford rent on Bourbon Street,
(13:10):
but it is also an educationalinstitution.
Have been in this shop wherethere is a giant statue of
Baphomet and a woman clearlylooking at the uh, the, the poor
kid working the counter thatday and going why do y'all
worship the devil?
And you could literally see himnot only roll his eyes, but his
voice went completely monotoneand he went ma'am, that is not
the devil, that is the voodoowho do God, baphomet, baphomet,
(13:34):
and he goes into this wholespeech that he's given so many
times.
Right, you can see, like thelife draining out of him that
he's doing it yet again.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Poor guy.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Right, and this woman who was inebriated, by the way,
because Bourbon Street in NewOrleans literally just kept
harping and was going.
Well, I don't care what you say, that's the devil.
But that brings about thatquestion.
According to who and how?
(14:09):
How do you know?
Or how how does a, let's say,regular christian right out in
the world, how have they come tolook at that picture of
baphomet and go, that's thedevil well see, when I asked
this type of question when I wasyounger in church where where
(14:30):
did all these other religionscome from, if this is what in
the world y'all claim?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
uh-huh?
Well, and basically what theysaid was the devil apparently
got a delorean, traveled back intime and recreated all these
false religions before the realreligion.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Nuh-uh.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
That was the answer I was basically given.
Somehow Satan traveled back intime and set all these up before
.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Okay, I need my own DeLorean so I can go back in
time and beat the crap out ofthe youth pastor that fed you
that line of horseshit.
And again, that was horseshitAgain even I knew this as a kid.
I'm sitting here looking at himgoing what?
Wow, wowie, wow.
You just shocked the shit outof me with that one.
(15:14):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
This is what I was told as a kid.
This is how all these other,this is how Hindu came about and
how everything over in.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Asia Ishkabible no no , Okay, he didn't say of course,
of course my youth pastor didnot say anything about the
DeLorean.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get you, but the idea that
the devil could time traveldoesn't, yeah, yeah, of course
so, but I mean, yes, look, Ithink all modern pagans know and
understand that the Christianchurch did a lot of Shady things
.
Modern pagans know andunderstand that the Christian
(15:50):
church did a lot of shady things.
Well, that, and theymanipulated text and they
manipulated doctrine andscriptures to again, in a way,
incorporate a lot ofnon-Christian faiths in an
effort to try to convert them.
Yeah, and this still goes on.
This is still a thing.
(16:10):
This is missionaries.
This is what they do.
So, unfortunately, christianityhas just had this very far reach
.
And that's there you go, I mean, and so they're perpetuating
some of this.
That's there you go, I mean,and so they're perpetuating some
(16:30):
of this.
I don't really know, though Ifind it interesting that, again,
the picture of what they callthe devil is so well known, is
so widely understood, especiallywhen nobody's there are no
pamphlets anymore.
No, devil is so well known, isso widely understood, especially
when nobody's there's nopamphlets anymore, like there's
(16:52):
no church that I have been towhere they're like, and here's
your pamphlet on the devil andthis is what he looks like, and
this is everything you need toknow to avoid.
No, not so I don't know.
I don't know if it's popculture, I don't know if it is
zealot sects of Christianitythat maybe are distributing
(17:16):
something like that.
You know, when we think aboutsome of the revivalist Christian
traditions that get kind ofintense maybe.
I don't know.
But yeah, this, the, the ideathat we are the opposite of, is
absurd to most pagans.
Yes, and yeah, it's still verymuch a belief.
(17:39):
It's still I I would venture tosay in most instances it's
still the number one questionyes that we are asked yeah, but
we are seeing a shift.
We're seeing a shift in that Inow think it's the over 30s and
the under 30s, over the age of30 people's first.
(18:00):
Yeah, we're still getting a lotof are y'all devil?
Speaker 4 (18:04):
yeah, are you devil worshipers?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
right under the age of 30.
We're seeing more of the harrypotter influence.
Y'all.
Y'all know how I feel aboutthat, but yeah, we're seeing
more of this slightly betterunderstanding of the belief
system right but a lot of itstill isn't rooted in anything
(18:28):
real right, it's just kind ofstill bits and pieces here, yeah
and I mean certainly the under30s.
A lot of them have gone aheadand said well, you know, I do
love harry potter and not likewhat's it based on.
And then they go down the therabbit hole of wicca and kind of
form their own thoughts.
(18:49):
But you know, but that's alsowhere we get a lot of
spiritualists now.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
In the younger generation that just don't
really see a need for organizedreligion at all in any form, and
they're just happy toeffectively be modern hippies.
yeah I ain't got a problem Idon't either you know, do what
you won't I just wish that thosemodern hippies would realize
(19:20):
that there is personal growthand spiritual growth to be
gained by having something of astructure and yeah, and by
having a more formal educationand also community.
But I mean again, to each theirown, it's, it's not up to me.
I mean, if that's what you'rehappy with, then hey, okay, but,
(19:41):
yeah, but.
But there is.
I think the younger generationfor the most part does
understand that we are not devilworshipers.
It is going to get better.
However, there are always goingto be in people who are
intensely raised in thechristian church, and we'll
always say it, we'll alwaysthink there's nothing we can do
to change that no, you arealways going to have people who
(20:04):
go.
That is witchcraft and that isof the devil right, and that's
that's the exact phrasing andthat's the end of the, that's
the end of the subject, and thisincludes psychics, this
includes divination of any kind,this includes, uh, any use of
crystals, herbs look naturalelements.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I've seen some of them get up there.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
No yoga, no tai chi, not even as an exercise form,
because that will cause worshipwell, I mean in a lot of that,
like, look, I mean you know,christians have a lot of
hang-ups about sex when thekarma sutra became holy, yeah
people's heads were about to popoff.
(20:48):
What do you mean?
The hindus have a book thatbasically teaches you how to
have sex in every conceivablemanner, and to this, to them,
this is almost a religious textyes, I mean yeah, there's a
little bit more to it than justthat.
There's a lot more to it, butthat's the surface perception Of
(21:10):
it, right?
So again, devil, that can'tpossibly be, you know.
And then you know what'sinteresting too is when you look
at, like depictions, when youlook at Hindu, I mean look All
right, kali is terrifying,terrifying, right, khali is
terrifying, terrifying.
(21:30):
When you look at pictures ofhindu gods who we, they are not.
There's nothing, nothingremotely.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Uh wait a minute.
No, no, no you.
You sit here and say this, butyet have you seen the AI
generations where they put thedescriptions of angels in the
pictures that came back?
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Angels are even bizarre hindu believers to be
fascinating.
I don't know, the americanculture doesn't always have the
best view of india and you know,I don't know why, but but I
find them to be very strongpeople and my feeling is, if you
(22:21):
can worship gods like kali andvishna and some yeah, you got
some balls, because these godsare not the warm and fuzzy I
mean even we have, you know, foras much as we have Hecate, we
also have Diana.
We have these versions.
We have Aphrodite yeah, we havethese versions of the goddess.
(22:43):
They're very soft and squishyand feminine, and you know yeah,
but I look at some of the Hindugods and I'm like, oh boy, oh
boy, you are.
You are super scary.
So I can only imagine if I'm apagan saying that.
I can only imagine a Christianlooking at Kali and going, oh
(23:04):
crap, that's a demon, you know,yeah, yeah.
So you know, know, and itdoesn't help.
This is the other thing that Ithink does not help at all the
concept that, wherever it comesfrom in the bible, the belief
that God made man in his image,but then, throughout history and
(23:31):
culture, each version of manhas decided it must mean in the
form that they are today.
Hence why we have such awhitewashed view of jesus.
Yeah, and you know, god must bethis strapping gentleman with a
big white beard and you know,like it's just it's yeah, yeah I
(23:59):
have a hard time wrapping myhead around it same same.
I mean there's there's no doubtin my mind that when we look at
the cradle of humanity and welook at things like Mesopotamia
and we look at, you know, theFertile Crescent and,
historically, the places whereman likely originated, we were
(24:23):
brown.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Well, we were a lot of colors.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, but we were, you know, potential.
We were much darker.
We were not the caucasianpicture of what everybody thinks
and that is another componentof the devil.
The, the anglicized christianbelief system, also vilified
black people.
True, and that's like right.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
So the very color of their skin, because I remember
something to the effect ofpeople were trying some
Christians were trying to claimblack people were the people
that were descended from Cain.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
There's all kinds of and.
I'm like what?
There are all kinds of crazytheories and again, when you
look at African tribes and yougo back to the slave trade, you
know, there it was like it wasagain let's take these gods,
these deities, and convert andmove the people away from them.
(25:18):
It was another version ofcontrol and it was unification,
but but yes, I mean it wasanother way to hold down black
people from achieving I think itwas more of a justification to
do this practice, to go downhere and get these specific
(25:39):
people to make them specificallytrade instead.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Of your neighbors down the street.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Right, probably both, I mean either way it wasn't
good no.
It wasn't good.
No, it wasn't good.
It's why I always get apersonal giggle when I see a
black Santa Claus you know, inthe stores at.
Christmas, and me personally.
Yes, I think it's great, itgives me a giggle and I always
(26:03):
see the other.
You know the white people shopwho, who like get very.
You know black santa claus andI'm like shut up, like you're
part of the problem, right there, like just just, yeah, just
move on with it, keep right whycan't there be a black santa?
for god's sake it it's.
(26:26):
It's important to give thesecultures that have been so held
down a sense of belonging and asense of their own
representation.
But, yeah, I mean, there wereso many ways that we look that
in.
In the, the hoodoo and voodooreligions, you have the barren
(26:49):
and you have the different.
Hoodoo represent the same thing.
They have become, you know,variations upon the devil, right
, you know, yeah, yeah, it's allgarbage.
And Hoodoo, ironically, hoodoohas more in common with
(27:11):
Christianity than anything elseUm just because of how much of
it was lost to antiquity.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Well, I mean how much ?
How much Catholicism is wrappedup in who?
Do I mean voodoo?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Um, it's the other way around.
But yeah, because, because the,because what happened is again
the the enslaved people had tofill in the gaps of their
culture, so I think one of theways that they did it was to use
biblical concepts to help fillin the gaps.
Yeah, and so there's a lot ofpeople that will tell you that
(27:46):
voodoo is just an offshoot ofChristianity, yeah, which you
know, it's kind of wild.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
You're ready for more coffee.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I am.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Let's do that.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
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Speaker 3 (28:13):
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(28:34):
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Speaker 2 (00:26):
All right, coffee refilled.
Okay, today's topic.
Why does everyone think or noteveryone, but a lot of people, I
guess why does everyone thinkthat paganism or witchcraft,
wicca is the antithesis,antithesis, yeah yeah, I love
that word and antithesisopposite of christianity it's
(00:51):
such a good question and thishas been going on for a long
time it is.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I mean because even when we look at uh satanism, it
doesn't always seem to be Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It is though.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
But it is.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Mm-hmm.
So let's start by laying outthe basics, right, all right.
So the opposite of Christianity, right, right, we?
(01:33):
Actually, even if you're not aChristian, you probably know
more about this than you realizefrom pop culture and definitely
from horror movies.
Right, the opposite ofchristianity, okay, instead of
worshiping the upper, force orthe heavenly celestial right,
right um deity, and all thethings that go with it.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
It is the underworld and it is the hellscape and
obviously the devil who residesthere, right, right.
Instead of having a Messiah, aChrist, a son of God, we have an
anti-Christ Right, the son ofthe we have an anti-Christ, the
(02:09):
son of the devil, right, insteadof having apostles, there are.
This is what's wild.
There are.
The devil technically does haveapostles.
Yeah, there is a host of demonsthat act as his 12.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
And just to remind everybody, those demons used to
be angels that got thrown outwith him.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
They're all fallen angels.
Exactly, the Ten Commandmentsbecome this sort of bastardized
do whatever the heck you want,with no regard for anyone or
anything.
Interestingly though, the TenCommandments are where it gets a
(02:51):
little bit muddy, becausetechnically, if we want to be
technical, the Ten Commandmentsare not Christian, they're
Judaic.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So they kind of sort of don't count, but they're in
there somewhere too.
What else?
There's all of the dogma, allof the rules of Christianity are
basically yeah, invert them,right, that's it.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It's an inversion of everything, and that is what is
considered heresy, along with abunch of other stuff.
But you know, but that's theorigin.
That's the origin of the, thebelief or the idea of a heretic
right so okay but we're pagans,right, we're not pagans don't
(03:43):
typically, and I'm going to saytypically because I'm not going
to speak for all, but I mean,I'm sure there's a few out there
.
Yeah right.
Pagans don't typically believein the devil.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Because most pagans also don't necessarily believe
in the Christian version of God.
No, and they don't necessarilybelieve in the christian version
of god.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
no, and they don't necessarily believe in the
messiah either well, we don'tnecessarily believe in the whole
heaven and hell thing either wehave a variation or our own
conception of it, but it's verydifferent than that of
christianity.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Um, the thing I always find funny is is okay.
So the Jesus question?
Right, because so many pagansare often asked by family
members, right, you know, do youstill believe in Jesus?
And you know, my answer, formany years, was always the same
yes, I believe he was a verynice man.
Yes, for many years was alwaysthe same.
Yes, I believe he was a verynice man.
(04:44):
Yes, do I believe he was theson of God in the way that
Christianity portrays him?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Not, really, I mean to get down to it we take more
of like the Jewish view ofChrist, or even when he was just
a teacher.
He was a person and yeah oreven the Muslim right.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
He was a prophet of sorts, maybe.
Maybe, yeah, but I don't seehim as the way he is personified
in Christianity.
But yes, but I do think he wasa very nice man and I think he
had some lovely ideas andteachings.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I mean, I'm not going to go around and bash the
religion just because no, not atall.
You know.
I'm not going to go around andbash the religion just because
you know I don't see where inthe world that becomes helpful
at all.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Do I believe that you know really?
I mean, I think, the ultimatequestion.
I think, when a lot ofChristians ask, do you?
believe in Jesus really comesdown to?
Do you believe that Jesus diedfor our sins?
Sins, no, I don't, because Idon't believe in sin.
I believe in guilt.
I believe in emotion.
(05:50):
So, yes, I mean, okay, goodthing that you brought that up.
Well, okay, I believe in guilt.
Sure, I believe that sin iswhatever in your heart you know
to be wrong.
Yes, is whatever in your heartyou know to be wrong?
(06:11):
Yes, if it makes you feelguilty and it plagues you, you
do a bad tang, yeah, and youshould say you're sorry and fiss
it, yeah like that's it like Iknow how, how infantile that
sounds, hence the voice.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
But yeah, um but it's exactly right right other
christian ideals.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I don't believe that we are born sinners.
I don't believe that we areinherently.
I don't believe that withoutthe christian concept of rights,
like baptism right, that I willbe condemned to hell.
Right or you will not beallowed into heaven because you
haven't done these things.
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
None of these things resonate with me that I will be
condemned to hell, right, or youwill not be allowed into heaven
because you haven't done thesethings.
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
None of these things resonate with me.
So yeah, so most pagans believein a concept of animism that
goes way.
I mean, we're talking, we'regoing back to cave people of the
idea that everything has aspirit right, we interact with
(07:12):
those spirits right, animateobjects, inanimate objects,
everything effectively has apiece of an energetic soul of
some sort, and as do we, rightand our job is to function
within the natural world.
We strive for balance.
We look to understand ourselvesand understand our inner most
(07:41):
beliefs, desires, doctrines foreach individual.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And we don't judge, we don't pass judgment just
because another person's beliefthat something is right for them
, if we think it's wrong for us,that's all there is to it.
Cool, it's right for you, it'swrong for me.
Proceed, yeah, life goes on,that's it.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Like most pagans, I know we don't believe there's
anything wrong with the world.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
No, I don't think the world needs fixing.
I do think that man definitelyhas detrimental effects on the
planet.
But she will course correct.
I trust in her to take care ofit.
And if that means wiping out awhole bunch of us whoopsie, I
mean, I'm all right with that.
You know, if I get swallowed upby the ocean, I'm good.
(08:31):
I'm good, yeah, I'm.
I'm perfectly okay with that.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
If nature wants to reclaim me, okay all right, this
is not a force you can fightwith.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
No, no, might as well , just accept it.
Gosh, what else?
Where did they get the idea?
Where did it come from?
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Where did this come from when we just sat here and
described how these are not?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, all right, let's talk.
History Is this more popculture crap, no.
So unfortunately, a lot of itcomes from the fact that, all
right, we got it, we got to goback a ways here.
So a lot of it stems from, Ibelieve, the 1500s.
(09:21):
Up until about that time, theChristian church, the church at
large, had not defined the devil.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
No.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
We didn't know what he looked like, we didn't know
what his form was Right and inthe 1500s or about that time is
when the church basicallydecreed what the devil was, and
effectively they took an imagevery similar to Baphomet.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
The goat man horned god-esque, yeah, pagan deity and
said that's him.
Right and deity and said that'shim right.
(10:17):
This also led to a situationwhere, during the witch trials,
part of what the, the and I meanwe're not going to get too far
down this rabbit hole, but but abig, big part of persecuting
witches and being able to defineheresy was communion with the
devil.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
That witches were, in whatever way, talking to him,
working with him, working forhim, communing with him, etc.
Etc.
Right, etc, etc, right.
And that really started thisnotion, because the problem was
it during the burning times andthe inquisition, and right the,
(10:55):
the persecution of witches as awhole.
The thing that people need toremember is it had nothing to do
with spirituality and it reallyhad nothing to do with religion
.
It was about land and wealth yesso if you had a healer in town,
uh, an herbalist, let's say andI mean we're using modern day
(11:17):
terms to describe I mean theydidn't call themselves
herbalists back then but if youhad somebody who was something
of an herbalist and they had afarm where they grew their herbs
and it was a decent amount ofland and it was well cultivated
and it was well taken care of,and people in the village went
to this person when they neededa particular salve or a healing
ointment or whatever it was.
(11:39):
Their land was valuable, yes,okay.
Well, there's nothing in theBible that makes you condemnable
because you made someone asalve Right or a tincture or an
ointment, so they had to come upwith something that linked
(12:01):
these individuals to something.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
that was the antithesis of Christianity,
which equaled heresy.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And there it was.
So that's the situation in anutshell.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
And it prevailed All the way up to today, yes, where
we still have people looking atus going.
Well, y'all worship devils.
What?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I have stood in Marie Laveau's.
Well, it's called MarieLaveau's.
It's a shop in New Orleans onBourbon Street.
There's actually two locations.
It is Marie Laveau's House ofVoodoo.
It is registered as a legalchurch.
They have multiple propertiesand locations and it is a voodoo
(12:45):
cultural center.
Don't get me wrong.
Yes, they make money.
They sell a lot of stuff.
They have to to be able toafford rent on Bourbon Street,
(13:10):
but it is also an educationalinstitution.
Have been in this shop wherethere is a giant statue of
Baphomet and a woman clearlylooking at the uh, the, the poor
kid working the counter thatday and going why do y'all
worship the devil?
And you could literally see himnot only roll his eyes, but his
voice went completely monotoneand he went ma'am, that is not
the devil, that is the voodoowho do God, baphomet, baphomet,
(13:34):
and he goes into this wholespeech that he's given so many
times.
Right, you can see, like thelife draining out of him that
he's doing it yet again.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Poor guy.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Right, and this woman who was inebriated, by the way,
because Bourbon Street in NewOrleans literally just kept
harping and was going.
Well, I don't care what you say, that's the devil.
But that brings about thatquestion.
According to who and how?
(14:09):
How do you know?
Or how how does a, let's say,regular christian right out in
the world, how have they come tolook at that picture of
baphomet and go, that's thedevil well see, when I asked
this type of question when I wasyounger in church where where
(14:30):
did all these other religionscome from, if this is what in
the world y'all claim?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
uh-huh?
Well, and basically what theysaid was the devil apparently
got a delorean, traveled back intime and recreated all these
false religions before the realreligion.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Nuh-uh.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
That was the answer I was basically given.
Somehow Satan traveled back intime and set all these up before
.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Okay, I need my own DeLorean so I can go back in
time and beat the crap out ofthe youth pastor that fed you
that line of horseshit.
And again, that was horseshitAgain even I knew this as a kid.
I'm sitting here looking at himgoing what?
Wow, wowie, wow.
You just shocked the shit outof me with that one.
(15:14):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
This is what I was told as a kid.
This is how all these other,this is how Hindu came about and
how everything over in.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Asia Ishkabible no no , Okay, he didn't say of course,
of course my youth pastor didnot say anything about the
DeLorean.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get you, but the idea that
the devil could time traveldoesn't, yeah, yeah, of course
so, but I mean, yes, look, Ithink all modern pagans know and
understand that the Christianchurch did a lot of Shady things
.
Modern pagans know andunderstand that the Christian
(15:50):
church did a lot of shady things.
Well, that, and theymanipulated text and they
manipulated doctrine andscriptures to again, in a way,
incorporate a lot ofnon-Christian faiths in an
effort to try to convert them.
Yeah, and this still goes on.
This is still a thing.
(16:10):
This is missionaries.
This is what they do.
So, unfortunately, christianityhas just had this very far reach
.
And that's there you go, I mean, and so they're perpetuating
some of this.
That's there you go, I mean,and so they're perpetuating some
(16:30):
of this.
I don't really know, though Ifind it interesting that, again,
the picture of what they callthe devil is so well known, is
so widely understood, especiallywhen nobody's there are no
pamphlets anymore.
No, devil is so well known, isso widely understood, especially
when nobody's there's nopamphlets anymore, like there's
(16:52):
no church that I have been towhere they're like, and here's
your pamphlet on the devil andthis is what he looks like, and
this is everything you need toknow to avoid.
No, not so I don't know.
I don't know if it's popculture, I don't know if it is
zealot sects of Christianitythat maybe are distributing
(17:16):
something like that.
You know, when we think aboutsome of the revivalist Christian
traditions that get kind ofintense maybe.
I don't know.
But yeah, this, the, the ideathat we are the opposite of, is
absurd to most pagans.
Yes, and yeah, it's still verymuch a belief.
(17:39):
It's still I I would venture tosay in most instances it's
still the number one questionyes that we are asked yeah, but
we are seeing a shift.
We're seeing a shift in that Inow think it's the over 30s and
the under 30s, over the age of30 people's first.
(18:00):
Yeah, we're still getting a lotof are y'all devil?
Speaker 4 (18:04):
yeah, are you devil worshipers?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
right under the age of 30.
We're seeing more of the harrypotter influence.
Y'all.
Y'all know how I feel aboutthat, but yeah, we're seeing
more of this slightly betterunderstanding of the belief
system right but a lot of itstill isn't rooted in anything
(18:28):
real right, it's just kind ofstill bits and pieces here, yeah
and I mean certainly the under30s.
A lot of them have gone aheadand said well, you know, I do
love harry potter and not likewhat's it based on.
And then they go down the therabbit hole of wicca and kind of
form their own thoughts.
(18:49):
But you know, but that's alsowhere we get a lot of
spiritualists now.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
In the younger generation that just don't
really see a need for organizedreligion at all in any form, and
they're just happy toeffectively be modern hippies.
yeah I ain't got a problem Idon't either you know, do what
you won't I just wish that thosemodern hippies would realize
(19:20):
that there is personal growthand spiritual growth to be
gained by having something of astructure and yeah, and by
having a more formal educationand also community.
But I mean again, to each theirown, it's, it's not up to me.
I mean, if that's what you'rehappy with, then hey, okay, but,
(19:41):
yeah, but.
But there is.
I think the younger generationfor the most part does
understand that we are not devilworshipers.
It is going to get better.
However, there are always goingto be in people who are
intensely raised in thechristian church, and we'll
always say it, we'll alwaysthink there's nothing we can do
to change that no, you arealways going to have people who
(20:04):
go.
That is witchcraft and that isof the devil right, and that's
that's the exact phrasing andthat's the end of the, that's
the end of the subject, and thisincludes psychics, this
includes divination of any kind,this includes, uh, any use of
crystals, herbs look naturalelements.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I've seen some of them get up there.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
No yoga, no tai chi, not even as an exercise form,
because that will cause worshipwell, I mean in a lot of that,
like, look, I mean you know,christians have a lot of
hang-ups about sex when thekarma sutra became holy, yeah
people's heads were about to popoff.
(20:48):
What do you mean?
The hindus have a book thatbasically teaches you how to
have sex in every conceivablemanner, and to this, to them,
this is almost a religious textyes, I mean yeah, there's a
little bit more to it than justthat.
There's a lot more to it, butthat's the surface perception Of
(21:10):
it, right?
So again, devil, that can'tpossibly be, you know.
And then you know what'sinteresting too is when you look
at, like depictions, when youlook at Hindu, I mean look All
right, kali is terrifying,terrifying, right, khali is
terrifying, terrifying.
(21:30):
When you look at pictures ofhindu gods who we, they are not.
There's nothing, nothingremotely.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Uh wait a minute.
No, no, no you.
You sit here and say this, butyet have you seen the AI
generations where they put thedescriptions of angels in the
pictures that came back?
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Angels are even bizarre hindu believers to be
fascinating.
I don't know, the americanculture doesn't always have the
best view of india and you know,I don't know why, but but I
find them to be very strongpeople and my feeling is, if you
(22:21):
can worship gods like kali andvishna and some yeah, you got
some balls, because these godsare not the warm and fuzzy I
mean even we have, you know, foras much as we have Hecate, we
also have Diana.
We have these versions.
We have Aphrodite yeah, we havethese versions of the goddess.
(22:43):
They're very soft and squishyand feminine, and you know yeah,
but I look at some of the Hindugods and I'm like, oh boy, oh
boy, you are.
You are super scary.
So I can only imagine if I'm apagan saying that.
I can only imagine a Christianlooking at Kali and going, oh
(23:04):
crap, that's a demon, you know,yeah, yeah.
So you know, know, and itdoesn't help.
This is the other thing that Ithink does not help at all the
concept that, wherever it comesfrom in the bible, the belief
that God made man in his image,but then, throughout history and
(23:31):
culture, each version of manhas decided it must mean in the
form that they are today.
Hence why we have such awhitewashed view of jesus.
Yeah, and you know, god must bethis strapping gentleman with a
big white beard and you know,like it's just it's yeah, yeah I
(23:59):
have a hard time wrapping myhead around it same same.
I mean there's there's no doubtin my mind that when we look at
the cradle of humanity and welook at things like Mesopotamia
and we look at, you know, theFertile Crescent and,
historically, the places whereman likely originated, we were
(24:23):
brown.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Well, we were a lot of colors.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, but we were, you know, potential.
We were much darker.
We were not the caucasianpicture of what everybody thinks
and that is another componentof the devil.
The, the anglicized christianbelief system, also vilified
black people.
True, and that's like right.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
So the very color of their skin, because I remember
something to the effect ofpeople were trying some
Christians were trying to claimblack people were the people
that were descended from Cain.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
There's all kinds of and.
I'm like what?
There are all kinds of crazytheories and again, when you
look at African tribes and yougo back to the slave trade, you
know, there it was like it wasagain let's take these gods,
these deities, and convert andmove the people away from them.
(25:18):
It was another version ofcontrol and it was unification,
but but yes, I mean it wasanother way to hold down black
people from achieving I think itwas more of a justification to
do this practice, to go downhere and get these specific
(25:39):
people to make them specificallytrade instead.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Of your neighbors down the street.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Right, probably both, I mean either way it wasn't
good no.
It wasn't good.
No, it wasn't good.
It's why I always get apersonal giggle when I see a
black Santa Claus you know, inthe stores at.
Christmas, and me personally.
Yes, I think it's great, itgives me a giggle and I always
(26:03):
see the other.
You know the white people shopwho, who like get very.
You know black santa claus andI'm like shut up, like you're
part of the problem, right there, like just just, yeah, just
move on with it, keep right whycan't there be a black santa?
for god's sake it it's.
(26:26):
It's important to give thesecultures that have been so held
down a sense of belonging and asense of their own
representation.
But, yeah, I mean, there wereso many ways that we look that
in.
In the, the hoodoo and voodooreligions, you have the barren
(26:49):
and you have the different.
Hoodoo represent the same thing.
They have become, you know,variations upon the devil, right
, you know, yeah, yeah, it's allgarbage.
And Hoodoo, ironically, hoodoohas more in common with
(27:11):
Christianity than anything elseUm just because of how much of
it was lost to antiquity.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Well, I mean how much ?
How much Catholicism is wrappedup in who?
Do I mean voodoo?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Um, it's the other way around.
But yeah, because, because the,because what happened is again
the the enslaved people had tofill in the gaps of their
culture, so I think one of theways that they did it was to use
biblical concepts to help fillin the gaps.
Yeah, and so there's a lot ofpeople that will tell you that
(27:46):
voodoo is just an offshoot ofChristianity, yeah, which you
know, it's kind of wild.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
You're ready for more coffee.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I am.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Let's do that.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan Coffee Talk is brought toyou by Life Temple and Seminary
.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more
information as well as links toour social media Facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andReddit.
Just hold my hand as we pass bya sea of blazing fires, and so
it is the end of our day.
(28:34):
So walk with me till morningbreaks.
And so it is the end of our day.
So walk with me till morningbreaks, morning.
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