May 21, 2025 • 30 mins
Have you ever noticed how spiritual communities sometimes split into seemingly opposing camps? That's exactly what we're diving into this week as we explore a fascinating division within the pagan world.
One path is filled with practitioners who see divine signs everywhere they look—every coincidence becomes an omen, every unusual occurrence a message from the gods. While this approach brings wonder and magic into everyday life, we question what happens when this mentality becomes an expectation or requirement for "proper" practice. Are we setting ourselves up for what some have aptly called "spiritual psychosis"?
The other path seeks a more grounded approach, embracing both spiritual heights and the reality of human existence. These practitioners recognize that true growth often requires trudging through difficult emotions rather than bypassing them with spiritual quick fixes. Like plants that need both nurture and stress to develop strong roots, our spiritual lives thrive when we acknowledge the full spectrum of human experience.
We challenge the notion that specialized tools and elaborate setups are necessary for connecting with deities or practicing effectively. While altars, candles, and ritual objects can be beautiful and meaningful aids, we explore how the essence of practice ultimately resides within the practitioner—in the breath, intention, and emotion behind the work. As Lord Night asks, "If I take all your books and tools away, are you still a witch?" The answer reveals what truly matters in spiritual practice.
We hope this episode offers valuable perspective on finding balance between mystical experience and grounded reality. We invite you to join the conversation and share your own thoughts on navigating these seemingly divergent approaches to spirituality.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk.
If you enjoy our content,please consider donating and
following our socials.
Alright.
So I was looking on Reddit andI saw this one post where they
were talking about how this oneperson feels that the pagan
community is splitting into twodirections.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
One is all about signs and omens and, as they put
it, spiritual psychosis.
Yes, one is all about signs andomens and, as they put it,
spiritual psychosis.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Where, if you're not seeing visions, if you're not
getting those signs and omensfrom the gods, then you're doing
this wrong.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
If you're not being smacked around on the gods on a
minute-by-minute basis, you'renot doing this right.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Right, the other one is those of us who maybe want a
more deeper connection right allof this is kind of right, more
grounded in reality, more ummore realistic about our
expectations and our practicesright, there does seem to be the
(01:20):
set of the community.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
They have these lofty ideas.
You know again, you.
You do a spell right, quick,and suddenly all your trauma's
gone, or right, that's.
That's in the first group, yeahthis is the first group and
where the second group's morelike okay, no, your trauma's
just not healed.
You sort of got to go trumpingthrough it and deal with it and,
(01:45):
right, clean the sore out, Iguess.
Right.
So what started this?
Well, again, we've always hadthe fluffy bunnies I think it's,
I think it's.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Uh, it's a pattern.
It comes and goes.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I mean, this is not something new, these people have
always existed in the pagancommunity Right.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So I don't think it's actually anything.
That's recent.
It's not.
Oh, all of a sudden we'resplitting in two directions.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
It's kind of always been this way.
It's always been this way, butI think the side, that which we
refer to as the fluffy bunniesI'm just being honest, all right
, it seems to be, I have toadmit over the years seem to be
becoming more and more prominent.
Well, yeah, you know everythingagain, everything they do, yes,
is a sign from Hecate.
(02:40):
Yes, I'm so important thateverything through my life is
which is kind of weird because Iwalk through my life.
Yes, I see where the gods haveinterfered or have touched
nature.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I can see the divine and stuff,but it doesn't make me want to
(03:01):
everything going.
Oh, no, I've got to reanalyzethis spot on a tree, right I
don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, I mean I don't either.
It's uh, I don't thinkeverything is divine
intervention.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think signs and omens and things like that do
hold their place well I thinkyou can get wrapped up into the
signs and omens a little toomuch.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Sometimes it's easy to do.
It's easy to do Back in highschool.
Perfect example of this rightBack in high school I was part
of a group and we called itMagical Singers Right, and we
did a magical play for theChristmas season.
And magical is just, it'smedieval, it's renaissance, it's
(03:50):
that type of atmosphere right,so we had a king and we had a
queen, and we had a royal courtand we had jesters and servants
and all this other stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Y'all did the whole pomp and circumstance.
Yes, we did, it was fun.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yes, we had a pig that we paraded around for
everybody while we sang theboar's head song, right, um, but
part of our presentation was,um, periodically we were allowed
to go around to people's tablesand blow out their candle and
say, oh no, the spirits are here, right, right, and there was
(04:25):
one night in particular that wewere doing this and, yeah, we
had a lot of spirits yeahbecause people got wrapped up
into go walking up and blowingpeople's candles out right right
, it just got a little out ofcontrol.
Same thing it's just easy to getwrapped up into that spiritual
(04:46):
side of things.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Right.
I mean, when we're sitting hereand we're talking about the
fluffy bunnies, we're literallytalking about these people.
They are, they're that toxicpositivity.
Everything is a good omen.
Everything is I mean, Well, it'snot always good, but yeah,
there is that toxic positivityalways good, but, yeah, there is
(05:10):
that toxic positivity therethat does happen in this is it's
that everything's just too goodto sunshine and and life's not
that way.
I mean most people, I know most, most people who follow craft.
The idea behind this is is thatwe almost walk through the
darkness before we can enjoy thelight.
Right, you know that we have togo through hard times to have
(05:31):
the good times.
Right, all right, to have thegood times, we got to go through
the hard times.
Not acknowledging that cycle tome is a little bit of a problem
.
You know, I'm just saying juststaying just on the sunny side.
I'm sorry, plants need rest andall this other stuff.
So what are we doing here?
I mean, is the world reallythat positive?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
No, I don't think so.
I mean talking about plantswhen you're trying to relate it
to that.
Plants need a certain amount ofstress.
Yes to grow to grow and to umproduce strong roots.
Right, but they do need.
They do need that time of rest.
(06:18):
They need that time wherethey're not being stressed out,
they need to recover, they needto recuperate and, again, that's
all part of what makes themstronger.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Right same thing with people well, again, you, you
work out, you, you go and youstress your muscles, trying to
break them down so your body canrebuild them exactly we but,
and if we believe in cycles andcraft, right, right, this is
nothing more than another cycle.
So, yes, part of this is thesepeople want to ignore this part
(06:54):
and just think it's the eternalsummer lands all the time, right
?
So again, why is it that peoplewant to avoid strife like this
when it's actually good for us?
I know, at the time when you'regoing through it and all that,
it's horrible and it's emotionaland the whole nine yards.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
But afterwards, you're better off.
I think people are forgettinghow to handle strife and
struggle and things like that,and I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well, it's kind of like we're living in a society
where there's a group of us whodon't want to feel any bad
emotions whatsoever at any giventime.
Right that seem to have it inyour head that you're never
supposed to be depressed.
Right that it's all supposed tobe sunshine and lollipops From
the time you wake up to the timeyou go back to bed.
Right, I don't think that'srealistic.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I mean you can't.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
From the time I get up from me personally, from the
time I get up from bed to thetime I go back down, I have
probably gone through moreemotions that day, Probably.
Yeah, All right, from road rageto aggravation to just watching
the news, even doing the wholeentire Sunday football chair guy
(08:14):
yelling at the TV.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Why would I not want to experience all these emotions
?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
even the bad ones, I don't know.
I mean again, that's part ofthe human experience.
Well, that's part of life.
If you can't, I mean I've saidfor part of the human experience
, Well that's part of life Ifyou can't.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I mean, I've said for years that the greatest gifts
the gods ever gave to us was ouremotions.
Right, that's where we gainpower from.
I believe that, yeah, andstrength.
You know being angry can behelpful.
Sure, it can.
All right, I mean, you knowbeing angry has changed the
world many times.
(08:48):
This is true, that's like love.
How many wars were caused overlove?
Too many, I mean.
We're not even talking aboutthe.
What is that?
The Troy, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Helen of Troy, yeah stuff, you know where there was
a war Right, yeah stuff.
You know where there was a warRight, so I don't understand why
we have a section of thepopulation who just wants to
ignore the other half.
I mean, it's the whole yin andyang thing.
You can't have one without theother.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
But yet these same people still hear these stories
about, about the story of thetwo wolves inside everyone Right
, one's aggressive, one's notthe ying, the yang Right, which
is a pretty popular story, allright, but yet again, when you
actually go out and listen tothese people and stuff like that
, they're not doing this.
No, they're not, and I don't getit, and I think that's where
(09:47):
the big divide is here.
I know we call them fluffy airbunnies, and it also means
they're not.
They're surface level people,only it's like they only read
just the first few chapters of abook or something and they just
barely grasp on do you thinkit's, do you think it's part of
the whole?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
do as I say, not as I do.
No.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I think it has.
I'm like you, I think, part ofthis has to do with social media
and everybody being so positive.
You put out something andeverybody's too busy patting you
on your back.
They'll look at you and go well, that's not exactly right.
That's not exactly howeverybody sees that theory,
right?
Instead, they put out thetheories and all they get are
(10:32):
comments back going oh we loveyou, you're so stunning and
brave, and blah, blah, blah.
We didn't actually listen towhat in the world you said.
You're just there and sayingsome of the positive things we
like, right?
We're not going to dig up anydeeper, look or ask extra
questions, right?
You know you made me feel goodit does.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
It does kind of make you wonder, I mean, I don't,
when did social media become thepat on the back that it has?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
well, it seems like it's one of the two either
you're getting pats on your back, no matter what Well, it seems
like it's one of the two.
Either you're getting pats onyour back, no matter what in the
world you said, or you've got abunch of people just sitting
there telling you you're anidiot.
Right, I've never sat there,and there's very few times I've
ever sat there, besides oncertain websites where it's like
okay, context, this makes nosense to me.
(11:25):
Very few of those, well again,it's the two extremes.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yes, I mean you've got on one end.
You've got like we discussedearlier, just a few minutes ago.
You've got the spiritualpsychosis people where
everything's a sign,everything's an omen,
everything's whatever, yeah.
And then you've got the otherside of that.
Well, this is the same thing.
(11:52):
Yeah, it's either toxicpositivity or it's toxic
negativity.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
All right.
Again, we seem to be losing ourbalance between these two.
We do All right and I don'tunderstand why in the world
everybody just wants to mainlygo to an extreme.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I don't know.
I've always believed that thispath is about that balance,
Right it's.
People on one side of the creekbelieve one way.
People on the other side of thecreek believe another way.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And it is our job to stand in the middle of that
creek, going, listen to thisside, listen to that side and
giving our advice.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right, that's what this whole path is about.
Right, it's coming to thatwhere not only do you see the
balance, but you are the balance.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Right, but the bulk of the people who again in the
community at large, don't seemto do that.
I don't understand where we'velost this whole entire balance
thing.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I don't know, I don't know where it happened, I don't
know why it happened.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And to make it even worse is and you go to talk to
these people, right?
Mm-hmm and what's?
Oh, no, we're balanced, how?
But you're not, but you're not.
And how is that balanced?
Oh, because I'm happy all thetime.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Okay, okay, you know Well, you can't have happiness
without having sadness, right?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
how do you know what happiness is if you've never
been sad, right?
I'm sorry you know again.
Just like I said earlier,there's at least some part
during the day.
Yes, I feel a little sad, ormaybe even a little depressed
yeah you know, because it'ssomething I've seen on TV that
makes me think about a bad thing.
But it's not like I'm sittingthere, oh now my whole entire
(13:54):
day's ruined.
How many times have you goneinto work not feeling good?
But yet once you got there,moving around and stuff, that
sick feeling just sort of wentaway?
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, and then when I leave work it kind of comes
back a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, it happens.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
It happens.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I think there's a serious problem that needs to be
dealt with, and I don't knowhow to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Because, again, if you go on TikTok or any of these
places and you start going well, wait a minute, these people
just suddenly blow up, yeah, Allwell, wait a minute.
These people just suddenly blowup yeah, All over the place.
And I think there's part of theproblem with not having that
balance that when they do getquestioned about it and
everything and they really dolose it, it's because they
haven't been dealing with themother emotions and they're
getting slammed with it all of asudden.
(14:40):
I've seen them do that too.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yep, it happens like a tidal wave.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
It does.
It's kind of like, okay, you'vekept all them bad emotions down
and I'm going to go over thereand just poke that dike just a
little bit more Right and thenwhen it breaks they lose it.
But yet I've seen witches andpeople we know and crap.
You can sit there and do thatto them all day and they'd not
even move Right.
Might not even recognize yourexistence.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Might not.
I mean it has happened.
But again, I don't know how wedeal with this.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
We're not sitting here telling these people you
can't believe the way you are.
It's just, I'm asking questionshow do y'all deal with?
Because, again, I don't seethem dealing with these things.
No, so it is confusing to me.
It is to me too.
So I think we need more coffee.
I think so.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So here's a question for you All right Do we need an
altar to communicate withdeities?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
No, okay short enough conversation for you, yeah I
mean, why not?
It.
It bothers me more that peoplehave the idea that you are
required to have something toconnect with the gods than the
actual item itself.
Did I say that right?
I?
(16:05):
I think so.
The thought that you needanything to offer a prayer or to
communicate with the God, itjust bothers me.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I mean, are there things that can help you get
into that space?
Yes, absolutely, music incense.
You know being down by a brook,you know a stream or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Well, every morning I get up, I say prayers to my
gods, right, I like hold a pieceof incense and pray and light
it.
Right, that's just what.
I do yeah, to help me focus.
I don't need the incense to dothe prayer.
No, there's where in the worldI think we need to talk about.
(16:47):
Why do people think you have tohave these things?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Why are we so reliant on our tools?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right, I mean, but I hate to be this way, it's not
even in ours.
I mean, you've got Catholicswith the whole lighting the
candles, because I've workedjobs where, okay, the lotto went
up and all the Catholic peoplewere like, oh no, I've got to go
to church and light a candle,right, all the Catholic people
were like, oh no, I got to go tochurch and light a candle.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right and I'm like, okay, how's that not witchcraft?
Well, I think those candles arefor different purposes.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
But anyway, yeah, but again, it's the same thought
You're required to have to usethis candle to get.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I think it's important for a lot of people
because it does help them getinto that spiritual frame of
mind.
That's that head space.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I'm not saying they couldn't be used as triggers to
help us Right.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
But I'm just saying I think that's, I think it's
where we.
It's easy to become reliant onthat.
Uh-huh, it's easy to becomereliant on that instead of
taking time to try to workwithout them, to be able to get
into that headspace, into thatframe of mind without those
(18:03):
tools, without thoseaccoutrements, if you will.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
This is along the same lines of what I hear about
the shamans in South America.
They all sit there and go.
Hey, when we were younger, yes,our teachers gave us drugs to
cause us to go into thisheadspace.
But over time they took thedrugs away from us and said now
you know what it's like.
You've got to get there without.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Well and see, I think that's part of the problem is
we don't have a lot of teachersnot you know, and then and
you've got the solitarypractitioners.
And again, nothing wrong withbeing a solitary practitioner,
but you're learning on your ownyeah and it's easy to become
reliant on your tools and yourextra things that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Whereas if you have a teacher, you've got somebody
who can kind of help you walkthrough that and get beyond the
tools.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Right, because you're more looking at what the tool
represents.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Versus what the tool actually is Right.
I hope that made sense forpeople.
I hope it did too, because that, to me, is what's the toll
actually is Right.
I hope that made sense forpeople.
I hope it did too, because that, to me, is what's the more
important part, the reasonbehind the toll that you realize
you are using as a trigger toput you in the mood to sit down
and pray, to sit down andmeditate.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Right.
I think in this case it couldeasily be said it's not the
journey at that point, it's thedestination.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Well.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
The journey, representing the tools.
Right To some extent yeah, it'sa bad analogy, I know.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I see it a little bit better the other way around.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
All right, you think the tools are the destination.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I think the idea is that we think of it as the tools
, as a car, and you're using itto go on a journey.
Does it really matter if you'rein a Corvette or just some old
Rambler?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Okay, better analogy.
Either way, either tool isgoing to get you there.
Better analogy I like that,yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Alright.
So there's the way I'm lookingat this and, again, that's the
way I think we need to look atthese things.
But we're not.
People are using them asbarriers not to worship, not to
do things.
Oh, I don't have an anthem, soI can't worship.
I don't have an anthem, so Ican't worship.
I don't have an altar, so Ican't worship.
I remember us doing a wholeentire full moon ritual where we
(20:35):
literally removed the altar.
The ritual was to remove thealtar from ritual space.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes, to show that we don't need it, but I don't think
that that's necessarily thecase case that people are using
it as an excuse not to dosomething, I think.
I think for a lot of people,and again it goes back to
they're doing stuff on their own, so they don't really know.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I mean they're asking me.
I mean, again, there's no suchthing as a dumb question.
I mean, at least somebody askedit.
But to a certain extent youshould have been able to figure
this out logically, I guess Do Ireally need an altar?
Does the altar really make adifference?
Isn't it that person?
Because, again, you listen tothe books, you read everything,
and we all sit here and say it'sabout a personal connection.
(21:24):
Right, I don't know anyreligion that does not sit there
and tell you that.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Right.
I don't know any religion thatdoes not sit there and tell you
that.
Right, but all the books andstuff tell you you need an altar
, you need these tools, you needanathema, you need your candles
, you need your incense.
All the books tell you this iswhat you need to practice.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Again, this is how we perform.
Again, we're on the religiousside of this.
This is what we need to performour rituals, and blah, blah,
blah, but at the end of the day,no, we don't know.
All right, and at the end ofthe day, it's the.
It's that whole entire question.
You know, if I take all yourbooks and I take all your tools,
are you still a witch?
You know.
(22:05):
You know, if you're a Christianand I take your Bible away and
all your churches and yourcommunity, are you still a
Christian?
Right?
If you ask the majority of them, they're going to say, yes, you
take all my stuff away, I'mstill a witch, right?
And then that that will neverchange because it's inside me.
It's not the tool.
(22:26):
Right, you know what?
Yes, the tools are nice andagain, when you're performing
ritual, they're there, they helpout, they do certain things,
but they're just tools.
They're not a means to the end.
No, and it bothers me thatthere are people out there who
seem to think that they arerequired to have these items.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Well, again I'm back to everything that we read, I
mean, even in more modern daybooks.
It's all.
You need this, you need that.
There's nothing beyond that.
There's nothing that says inany of this literature.
There's nothing that says whatwe just said you don't need all
of this literature.
There's nothing that says whatwe just said you don't need all
(23:13):
of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
You don't need any of it Well again, think about the
argument over ropes Sky-clad orropes.
The fact is, both are valid.
Nobody has said anything.
So when I first came up and Iwas doing my own solitary thing,
I did my rituals in silk boxers.
(23:34):
Okay, I know there are peoplein the pagan community that
would sit there and look at megoing.
You did what, Well?
I mean and then it's my ritualand my personal space.
What does it matter?
What does it matter?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
And again, it's whatever you have.
If you feel you want to wearsomething and it's your personal
ritual, just wear it.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, I mean yeah or don't I mean, I'm sorry, I am a
guy and at the time, you know,going around waving a knife out
with everything hanging out justdid not seem like a good idea.
But even then I stillunderstood to a certain extent
that this wasn't necessary,because I saw the contradiction
(24:22):
in the two.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
yeah, but I don't think everybody puts that.
Not everybody can put thatconnection together.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Right.
Where in the world do you gofrom robes to?
Oh, a robe's just a tool.
So again we're starting to whattools I mean?
Because in some traditions, allright, like in our traditions,
we hold the anthem very sacredlyfor certain reasons.
All right, traditional regionsfor us, but in other ones it's
(24:53):
the one instead.
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And again.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Nothing wrong with this.
So what is the problem?
Why do we have to put so muchemphasis on all of this stuff
that we have?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
to need that, we have to have certain tools Right.
The only thing I can keepcoming back to is what I've
already stated, is that in allthe books and everything that
we're reading, that's what itsays, and people are taking it
for what it's worth, and arethey missing the parts where I
read where in the world theykeep on referring to these as
triggers?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
and every so often and yeah, vaguely, because I saw
those in those books I've readthose words.
I remember reading those whenthey talked about tools.
I matter of fact, I think it'sin the Big Blue Book.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Oh my Lord, it's been years since I've read that.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
See, for some reason I have that vague mention that
in these books they kept onreferring to these.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I'd have to go back because, honestly, in most of
the books that I read, it justseemed like this is what you
need and there was no.
This is a trigger.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Again, the way they always wrote it was it was kind
of like at the beginning thenthere was like two chapters on
all the different tools and whatthey mean and blah, blah, blah.
So I think the problem is isthat you get so overwhelmed with
the meanings and the purposesof the tools you forget the
first part, where we go, oryou're just skipping over it, or
you're just skipping over itall together.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, I mean it's a possibility, but I really think
it.
I really think that if at allpossible and this is not
promoting coven work at all,it's find you a mentor, find you
find somebody, find, just, yeah, find somebody who's got a
little more experience than youand get them to help you work
(26:44):
through things.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Get them to help you work, and we're talking about
somebody.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Especially if you can't figure it out on your own.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well I'm talking about if you're going to do that
, make sure it's somebody youactually get to know and it's
just not a bunch of 50 differentrandom strangers out on the net
.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Oh, no, absolutely not.
No, you want to be able totrust this person.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, you want someone you can build a
relationship with and have someconfidence in what they're
saying.
Because, again, you go out onReddit and all these other,
you're going to get some weirdanswers.
I'm sure you are, and you'regoing to get some answers that
contradict one another.
But as far as I'm concerned, mywhole entire practice.
(27:21):
No, the tools are not requiredto do anything.
No, they're not.
I'm not even going to sit hereand say that you need anything
to cast a spell other thanyourself.
Right, I'll even go that far.
You don't need crystals.
You don't need jack shit.
No, you don't need incense.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
You don't need fire, far you don't need crystals, you
don't need jack shit.
No, you don't need incense, youdon't need fire, you don't need
candles, you don't need coins.
All you need is the breath inyour lungs, right?
I mean, really that's all ittakes that's all it takes you
need, you need that and you needthe emotion to put behind it
that's it.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And ritual, and ritual is no different besides
where we're aiming that energy.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So, if you believe that you need something to
connect, to pray, to meditate,to commune with you, don't Well,
and I'll say this to thatextent, you may need it at this
time to help you get to thatspace, but just realize there is
(28:25):
more beyond that.
And you can work without them.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, it's like we've talked about with meditation.
You do meditation long enough,absolutely.
You don't have to go throughall that rigmarole, rigmarole,
yeah, to get yourself into acertain headspace.
You don't have to do thosecolors.
Know colors counting, or?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
any of those, whatever it is to get you,
whatever it takes to get to yoursafe space or to your spot
where you're in your own head.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
you know you do it long enough and it's sort of
like you know I sit down tomeditate and I think it takes me
like two minutes to get intothe and that's me in the middle
of freaking yoga.
Yeah, I was going to say, ifthat, I mean I'm standing in the
middle of a yoga class withlike 20 other people meditating
quite happily and, trust me,they're noisy.
(29:11):
But again, with practice, withtime, it becomes that easy.
Yeah, I mean there's nothingelse about that, and yeah, I'm
going to sit here and say, yes,if I can do it, anyone can do it
.
I know everybody.
I know there's at least 50people that just rolled their
eyes going yeah, yeah, yeah,probably yeah, but it's true.
(29:33):
So you ready for some morecoffee?
Yep.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan coffee talk is brought toyou by life temple and seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempelseminaryorg for more
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this trodden path, the maze ofstone and mire.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing
pyres.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till
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Speaker 3 (30:16):
And so it is the end of our days.
So walk with me till morning.
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Alright.
So I was looking on Reddit andI saw this one post where they
were talking about how this oneperson feels that the pagan
community is splitting into twodirections.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
One is all about signs and omens and, as they put
it, spiritual psychosis.
Yes, one is all about signs andomens and, as they put it,
spiritual psychosis.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Where, if you're not seeing visions, if you're not
getting those signs and omensfrom the gods, then you're doing
this wrong.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
If you're not being smacked around on the gods on a
minute-by-minute basis, you'renot doing this right.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Right, the other one is those of us who maybe want a
more deeper connection right allof this is kind of right, more
grounded in reality, more ummore realistic about our
expectations and our practicesright, there does seem to be the
(01:20):
set of the community.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
They have these lofty ideas.
You know again, you.
You do a spell right, quick,and suddenly all your trauma's
gone, or right, that's.
That's in the first group, yeahthis is the first group and
where the second group's morelike okay, no, your trauma's
just not healed.
You sort of got to go trumpingthrough it and deal with it and,
(01:45):
right, clean the sore out, Iguess.
Right.
So what started this?
Well, again, we've always hadthe fluffy bunnies I think it's,
I think it's.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Uh, it's a pattern.
It comes and goes.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I mean, this is not something new, these people have
always existed in the pagancommunity Right.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So I don't think it's actually anything.
That's recent.
It's not.
Oh, all of a sudden we'resplitting in two directions.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
It's kind of always been this way.
It's always been this way, butI think the side, that which we
refer to as the fluffy bunniesI'm just being honest, all right
, it seems to be, I have toadmit over the years seem to be
becoming more and more prominent.
Well, yeah, you know everythingagain, everything they do, yes,
is a sign from Hecate.
(02:40):
Yes, I'm so important thateverything through my life is
which is kind of weird because Iwalk through my life.
Yes, I see where the gods haveinterfered or have touched
nature.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I can see the divine and stuff,but it doesn't make me want to
(03:01):
everything going.
Oh, no, I've got to reanalyzethis spot on a tree, right I
don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, I mean I don't either.
It's uh, I don't thinkeverything is divine
intervention.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think signs and omens and things like that do
hold their place well I thinkyou can get wrapped up into the
signs and omens a little toomuch.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Sometimes it's easy to do.
It's easy to do Back in highschool.
Perfect example of this rightBack in high school I was part
of a group and we called itMagical Singers Right, and we
did a magical play for theChristmas season.
And magical is just, it'smedieval, it's renaissance, it's
(03:50):
that type of atmosphere right,so we had a king and we had a
queen, and we had a royal courtand we had jesters and servants
and all this other stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Y'all did the whole pomp and circumstance.
Yes, we did, it was fun.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yes, we had a pig that we paraded around for
everybody while we sang theboar's head song, right, um, but
part of our presentation was,um, periodically we were allowed
to go around to people's tablesand blow out their candle and
say, oh no, the spirits are here, right, right, and there was
(04:25):
one night in particular that wewere doing this and, yeah, we
had a lot of spirits yeahbecause people got wrapped up
into go walking up and blowingpeople's candles out right right
, it just got a little out ofcontrol.
Same thing it's just easy to getwrapped up into that spiritual
(04:46):
side of things.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Right.
I mean, when we're sitting hereand we're talking about the
fluffy bunnies, we're literallytalking about these people.
They are, they're that toxicpositivity.
Everything is a good omen.
Everything is I mean, Well, it'snot always good, but yeah,
there is that toxic positivityalways good, but, yeah, there is
(05:10):
that toxic positivity therethat does happen in this is it's
that everything's just too goodto sunshine and and life's not
that way.
I mean most people, I know most, most people who follow craft.
The idea behind this is is thatwe almost walk through the
darkness before we can enjoy thelight.
Right, you know that we have togo through hard times to have
(05:31):
the good times.
Right, all right, to have thegood times, we got to go through
the hard times.
Not acknowledging that cycle tome is a little bit of a problem
.
You know, I'm just saying juststaying just on the sunny side.
I'm sorry, plants need rest andall this other stuff.
So what are we doing here?
I mean, is the world reallythat positive?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
No, I don't think so.
I mean talking about plantswhen you're trying to relate it
to that.
Plants need a certain amount ofstress.
Yes to grow to grow and to umproduce strong roots.
Right, but they do need.
They do need that time of rest.
(06:18):
They need that time wherethey're not being stressed out,
they need to recover, they needto recuperate and, again, that's
all part of what makes themstronger.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Right same thing with people well, again, you, you
work out, you, you go and youstress your muscles, trying to
break them down so your body canrebuild them exactly we but,
and if we believe in cycles andcraft, right, right, this is
nothing more than another cycle.
So, yes, part of this is thesepeople want to ignore this part
(06:54):
and just think it's the eternalsummer lands all the time, right
?
So again, why is it that peoplewant to avoid strife like this
when it's actually good for us?
I know, at the time when you'regoing through it and all that,
it's horrible and it's emotionaland the whole nine yards.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
But afterwards, you're better off.
I think people are forgettinghow to handle strife and
struggle and things like that,and I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well, it's kind of like we're living in a society
where there's a group of us whodon't want to feel any bad
emotions whatsoever at any giventime.
Right that seem to have it inyour head that you're never
supposed to be depressed.
Right that it's all supposed tobe sunshine and lollipops From
the time you wake up to the timeyou go back to bed.
Right, I don't think that'srealistic.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I mean you can't.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
From the time I get up from me personally, from the
time I get up from bed to thetime I go back down, I have
probably gone through moreemotions that day, Probably.
Yeah, All right, from road rageto aggravation to just watching
the news, even doing the wholeentire Sunday football chair guy
(08:14):
yelling at the TV.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Why would I not want to experience all these emotions
?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
even the bad ones, I don't know.
I mean again, that's part ofthe human experience.
Well, that's part of life.
If you can't, I mean I've saidfor part of the human experience
, Well that's part of life Ifyou can't.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I mean, I've said for years that the greatest gifts
the gods ever gave to us was ouremotions.
Right, that's where we gainpower from.
I believe that, yeah, andstrength.
You know being angry can behelpful.
Sure, it can.
All right, I mean, you knowbeing angry has changed the
world many times.
(08:48):
This is true, that's like love.
How many wars were caused overlove?
Too many, I mean.
We're not even talking aboutthe.
What is that?
The Troy, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Helen of Troy, yeah stuff, you know where there was
a war Right, yeah stuff.
You know where there was a warRight, so I don't understand why
we have a section of thepopulation who just wants to
ignore the other half.
I mean, it's the whole yin andyang thing.
You can't have one without theother.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
But yet these same people still hear these stories
about, about the story of thetwo wolves inside everyone Right
, one's aggressive, one's notthe ying, the yang Right, which
is a pretty popular story, allright, but yet again, when you
actually go out and listen tothese people and stuff like that
, they're not doing this.
No, they're not, and I don't getit, and I think that's where
(09:47):
the big divide is here.
I know we call them fluffy airbunnies, and it also means
they're not.
They're surface level people,only it's like they only read
just the first few chapters of abook or something and they just
barely grasp on do you thinkit's, do you think it's part of
the whole?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
do as I say, not as I do.
No.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I think it has.
I'm like you, I think, part ofthis has to do with social media
and everybody being so positive.
You put out something andeverybody's too busy patting you
on your back.
They'll look at you and go well, that's not exactly right.
That's not exactly howeverybody sees that theory,
right?
Instead, they put out thetheories and all they get are
(10:32):
comments back going oh we loveyou, you're so stunning and
brave, and blah, blah, blah.
We didn't actually listen towhat in the world you said.
You're just there and sayingsome of the positive things we
like, right?
We're not going to dig up anydeeper, look or ask extra
questions, right?
You know you made me feel goodit does.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
It does kind of make you wonder, I mean, I don't,
when did social media become thepat on the back that it has?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
well, it seems like it's one of the two either
you're getting pats on your back, no matter what Well, it seems
like it's one of the two.
Either you're getting pats onyour back, no matter what in the
world you said, or you've got abunch of people just sitting
there telling you you're anidiot.
Right, I've never sat there,and there's very few times I've
ever sat there, besides oncertain websites where it's like
okay, context, this makes nosense to me.
(11:25):
Very few of those, well again,it's the two extremes.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yes, I mean you've got on one end.
You've got like we discussedearlier, just a few minutes ago.
You've got the spiritualpsychosis people where
everything's a sign,everything's an omen,
everything's whatever, yeah.
And then you've got the otherside of that.
Well, this is the same thing.
(11:52):
Yeah, it's either toxicpositivity or it's toxic
negativity.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
All right.
Again, we seem to be losing ourbalance between these two.
We do All right and I don'tunderstand why in the world
everybody just wants to mainlygo to an extreme.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I don't know.
I've always believed that thispath is about that balance,
Right it's.
People on one side of the creekbelieve one way.
People on the other side of thecreek believe another way.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And it is our job to stand in the middle of that
creek, going, listen to thisside, listen to that side and
giving our advice.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right, that's what this whole path is about.
Right, it's coming to thatwhere not only do you see the
balance, but you are the balance.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Right, but the bulk of the people who again in the
community at large, don't seemto do that.
I don't understand where we'velost this whole entire balance
thing.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I don't know, I don't know where it happened, I don't
know why it happened.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And to make it even worse is and you go to talk to
these people, right?
Mm-hmm and what's?
Oh, no, we're balanced, how?
But you're not, but you're not.
And how is that balanced?
Oh, because I'm happy all thetime.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Okay, okay, you know Well, you can't have happiness
without having sadness, right?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
how do you know what happiness is if you've never
been sad, right?
I'm sorry you know again.
Just like I said earlier,there's at least some part
during the day.
Yes, I feel a little sad, ormaybe even a little depressed
yeah you know, because it'ssomething I've seen on TV that
makes me think about a bad thing.
But it's not like I'm sittingthere, oh now my whole entire
(13:54):
day's ruined.
How many times have you goneinto work not feeling good?
But yet once you got there,moving around and stuff, that
sick feeling just sort of wentaway?
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, and then when I leave work it kind of comes
back a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, it happens.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
It happens.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I think there's a serious problem that needs to be
dealt with, and I don't knowhow to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Because, again, if you go on TikTok or any of these
places and you start going well, wait a minute, these people
just suddenly blow up, yeah, Allwell, wait a minute.
These people just suddenly blowup yeah, All over the place.
And I think there's part of theproblem with not having that
balance that when they do getquestioned about it and
everything and they really dolose it, it's because they
haven't been dealing with themother emotions and they're
getting slammed with it all of asudden.
(14:40):
I've seen them do that too.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yep, it happens like a tidal wave.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
It does.
It's kind of like, okay, you'vekept all them bad emotions down
and I'm going to go over thereand just poke that dike just a
little bit more Right and thenwhen it breaks they lose it.
But yet I've seen witches andpeople we know and crap.
You can sit there and do thatto them all day and they'd not
even move Right.
Might not even recognize yourexistence.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Might not.
I mean it has happened.
But again, I don't know how wedeal with this.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
We're not sitting here telling these people you
can't believe the way you are.
It's just, I'm asking questionshow do y'all deal with?
Because, again, I don't seethem dealing with these things.
No, so it is confusing to me.
It is to me too.
So I think we need more coffee.
I think so.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So here's a question for you All right Do we need an
altar to communicate withdeities?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
No, okay short enough conversation for you, yeah I
mean, why not?
It.
It bothers me more that peoplehave the idea that you are
required to have something toconnect with the gods than the
actual item itself.
Did I say that right?
I?
(16:05):
I think so.
The thought that you needanything to offer a prayer or to
communicate with the God, itjust bothers me.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I mean, are there things that can help you get
into that space?
Yes, absolutely, music incense.
You know being down by a brook,you know a stream or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Well, every morning I get up, I say prayers to my
gods, right, I like hold a pieceof incense and pray and light
it.
Right, that's just what.
I do yeah, to help me focus.
I don't need the incense to dothe prayer.
No, there's where in the worldI think we need to talk about.
(16:47):
Why do people think you have tohave these things?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Why are we so reliant on our tools?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right, I mean, but I hate to be this way, it's not
even in ours.
I mean, you've got Catholicswith the whole lighting the
candles, because I've workedjobs where, okay, the lotto went
up and all the Catholic peoplewere like, oh no, I've got to go
to church and light a candle,right, all the Catholic people
were like, oh no, I got to go tochurch and light a candle.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right and I'm like, okay, how's that not witchcraft?
Well, I think those candles arefor different purposes.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
But anyway, yeah, but again, it's the same thought
You're required to have to usethis candle to get.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I think it's important for a lot of people
because it does help them getinto that spiritual frame of
mind.
That's that head space.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I'm not saying they couldn't be used as triggers to
help us Right.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
But I'm just saying I think that's, I think it's
where we.
It's easy to become reliant onthat.
Uh-huh, it's easy to becomereliant on that instead of
taking time to try to workwithout them, to be able to get
into that headspace, into thatframe of mind without those
(18:03):
tools, without thoseaccoutrements, if you will.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
This is along the same lines of what I hear about
the shamans in South America.
They all sit there and go.
Hey, when we were younger, yes,our teachers gave us drugs to
cause us to go into thisheadspace.
But over time they took thedrugs away from us and said now
you know what it's like.
You've got to get there without.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Well and see, I think that's part of the problem is
we don't have a lot of teachersnot you know, and then and
you've got the solitarypractitioners.
And again, nothing wrong withbeing a solitary practitioner,
but you're learning on your ownyeah and it's easy to become
reliant on your tools and yourextra things that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Whereas if you have a teacher, you've got somebody
who can kind of help you walkthrough that and get beyond the
tools.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Right, because you're more looking at what the tool
represents.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Versus what the tool actually is Right.
I hope that made sense forpeople.
I hope it did too, because that, to me, is what's the toll
actually is Right.
I hope that made sense forpeople.
I hope it did too, because that, to me, is what's the more
important part, the reasonbehind the toll that you realize
you are using as a trigger toput you in the mood to sit down
and pray, to sit down andmeditate.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Right.
I think in this case it couldeasily be said it's not the
journey at that point, it's thedestination.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Well.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
The journey, representing the tools.
Right To some extent yeah, it'sa bad analogy, I know.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I see it a little bit better the other way around.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
All right, you think the tools are the destination.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I think the idea is that we think of it as the tools
, as a car, and you're using itto go on a journey.
Does it really matter if you'rein a Corvette or just some old
Rambler?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Okay, better analogy.
Either way, either tool isgoing to get you there.
Better analogy I like that,yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Alright.
So there's the way I'm lookingat this and, again, that's the
way I think we need to look atthese things.
But we're not.
People are using them asbarriers not to worship, not to
do things.
Oh, I don't have an anthem, soI can't worship.
I don't have an anthem, so Ican't worship.
I don't have an altar, so Ican't worship.
I remember us doing a wholeentire full moon ritual where we
(20:35):
literally removed the altar.
The ritual was to remove thealtar from ritual space.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes, to show that we don't need it, but I don't think
that that's necessarily thecase case that people are using
it as an excuse not to dosomething, I think.
I think for a lot of people,and again it goes back to
they're doing stuff on their own, so they don't really know.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I mean they're asking me.
I mean, again, there's no suchthing as a dumb question.
I mean, at least somebody askedit.
But to a certain extent youshould have been able to figure
this out logically, I guess Do Ireally need an altar?
Does the altar really make adifference?
Isn't it that person?
Because, again, you listen tothe books, you read everything,
and we all sit here and say it'sabout a personal connection.
(21:24):
Right, I don't know anyreligion that does not sit there
and tell you that.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Right.
I don't know any religion thatdoes not sit there and tell you
that.
Right, but all the books andstuff tell you you need an altar
, you need these tools, you needanathema, you need your candles
, you need your incense.
All the books tell you this iswhat you need to practice.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Again, this is how we perform.
Again, we're on the religiousside of this.
This is what we need to performour rituals, and blah, blah,
blah, but at the end of the day,no, we don't know.
All right, and at the end ofthe day, it's the.
It's that whole entire question.
You know, if I take all yourbooks and I take all your tools,
are you still a witch?
You know.
(22:05):
You know, if you're a Christianand I take your Bible away and
all your churches and yourcommunity, are you still a
Christian?
Right?
If you ask the majority of them, they're going to say, yes, you
take all my stuff away, I'mstill a witch, right?
And then that that will neverchange because it's inside me.
It's not the tool.
(22:26):
Right, you know what?
Yes, the tools are nice andagain, when you're performing
ritual, they're there, they helpout, they do certain things,
but they're just tools.
They're not a means to the end.
No, and it bothers me thatthere are people out there who
seem to think that they arerequired to have these items.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Well, again I'm back to everything that we read, I
mean, even in more modern daybooks.
It's all.
You need this, you need that.
There's nothing beyond that.
There's nothing that says inany of this literature.
There's nothing that says whatwe just said you don't need all
of this literature.
There's nothing that says whatwe just said you don't need all
(23:13):
of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
You don't need any of it Well again, think about the
argument over ropes Sky-clad orropes.
The fact is, both are valid.
Nobody has said anything.
So when I first came up and Iwas doing my own solitary thing,
I did my rituals in silk boxers.
(23:34):
Okay, I know there are peoplein the pagan community that
would sit there and look at megoing.
You did what, Well?
I mean and then it's my ritualand my personal space.
What does it matter?
What does it matter?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
And again, it's whatever you have.
If you feel you want to wearsomething and it's your personal
ritual, just wear it.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, I mean yeah or don't I mean, I'm sorry, I am a
guy and at the time, you know,going around waving a knife out
with everything hanging out justdid not seem like a good idea.
But even then I stillunderstood to a certain extent
that this wasn't necessary,because I saw the contradiction
(24:22):
in the two.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
yeah, but I don't think everybody puts that.
Not everybody can put thatconnection together.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Right.
Where in the world do you gofrom robes to?
Oh, a robe's just a tool.
So again we're starting to whattools I mean?
Because in some traditions, allright, like in our traditions,
we hold the anthem very sacredlyfor certain reasons.
All right, traditional regionsfor us, but in other ones it's
(24:53):
the one instead.
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And again.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Nothing wrong with this.
So what is the problem?
Why do we have to put so muchemphasis on all of this stuff
that we have?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
to need that, we have to have certain tools Right.
The only thing I can keepcoming back to is what I've
already stated, is that in allthe books and everything that
we're reading, that's what itsays, and people are taking it
for what it's worth, and arethey missing the parts where I
read where in the world theykeep on referring to these as
triggers?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
and every so often and yeah, vaguely, because I saw
those in those books I've readthose words.
I remember reading those whenthey talked about tools.
I matter of fact, I think it'sin the Big Blue Book.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Oh my Lord, it's been years since I've read that.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
See, for some reason I have that vague mention that
in these books they kept onreferring to these.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I'd have to go back because, honestly, in most of
the books that I read, it justseemed like this is what you
need and there was no.
This is a trigger.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Again, the way they always wrote it was it was kind
of like at the beginning thenthere was like two chapters on
all the different tools and whatthey mean and blah, blah, blah.
So I think the problem is isthat you get so overwhelmed with
the meanings and the purposesof the tools you forget the
first part, where we go, oryou're just skipping over it, or
you're just skipping over itall together.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, I mean it's a possibility, but I really think
it.
I really think that if at allpossible and this is not
promoting coven work at all,it's find you a mentor, find you
find somebody, find, just, yeah, find somebody who's got a
little more experience than youand get them to help you work
(26:44):
through things.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Get them to help you work, and we're talking about
somebody.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Especially if you can't figure it out on your own.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well I'm talking about if you're going to do that
, make sure it's somebody youactually get to know and it's
just not a bunch of 50 differentrandom strangers out on the net
.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Oh, no, absolutely not.
No, you want to be able totrust this person.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, you want someone you can build a
relationship with and have someconfidence in what they're
saying.
Because, again, you go out onReddit and all these other,
you're going to get some weirdanswers.
I'm sure you are, and you'regoing to get some answers that
contradict one another.
But as far as I'm concerned, mywhole entire practice.
(27:21):
No, the tools are not requiredto do anything.
No, they're not.
I'm not even going to sit hereand say that you need anything
to cast a spell other thanyourself.
Right, I'll even go that far.
You don't need crystals.
You don't need jack shit.
No, you don't need incense.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
You don't need fire, far you don't need crystals, you
don't need jack shit.
No, you don't need incense, youdon't need fire, you don't need
candles, you don't need coins.
All you need is the breath inyour lungs, right?
I mean, really that's all ittakes that's all it takes you
need, you need that and you needthe emotion to put behind it
that's it.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And ritual, and ritual is no different besides
where we're aiming that energy.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So, if you believe that you need something to
connect, to pray, to meditate,to commune with you, don't Well,
and I'll say this to thatextent, you may need it at this
time to help you get to thatspace, but just realize there is
(28:25):
more beyond that.
And you can work without them.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, it's like we've talked about with meditation.
You do meditation long enough,absolutely.
You don't have to go throughall that rigmarole, rigmarole,
yeah, to get yourself into acertain headspace.
You don't have to do thosecolors.
Know colors counting, or?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
any of those, whatever it is to get you,
whatever it takes to get to yoursafe space or to your spot
where you're in your own head.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
you know you do it long enough and it's sort of
like you know I sit down tomeditate and I think it takes me
like two minutes to get intothe and that's me in the middle
of freaking yoga.
Yeah, I was going to say, ifthat, I mean I'm standing in the
middle of a yoga class withlike 20 other people meditating
quite happily and, trust me,they're noisy.
(29:11):
But again, with practice, withtime, it becomes that easy.
Yeah, I mean there's nothingelse about that, and yeah, I'm
going to sit here and say, yes,if I can do it, anyone can do it
.
I know everybody.
I know there's at least 50people that just rolled their
eyes going yeah, yeah, yeah,probably yeah, but it's true.
(29:33):
So you ready for some morecoffee?
Yep.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week for anotherepisode.
Pagan coffee talk is brought toyou by life temple and seminary
.
Please visit us atlifetempelseminaryorg for more
information, as well as links toour social media facebook,
discord, twitter, youtube andreddit we travel, travel down
this trodden path, the maze ofstone and mire.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing
pyres.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till
morning breaks.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
And so it is the end of our days.
So walk with me till morning.
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