March 28, 2025 • 32 mins
Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes unite to sound the alarm on the environmental crisis unfolding across America. From the Grand Canyon to the Great Lakes, our national treasures are under unprecedented threat as the Trump administration slashes funding, terminates Park Service employees, and rolls back critical environmental protections.
The attorneys general reveal the shocking reality behind recent cuts – multiple-hour wait times at national parks, visitor centers forced to close, and safety concerns mounting as essential personnel disappear. "Who is it that wants to see our national parks defunded?" Nessel asks, highlighting the bewildering nature of these attacks on beloved public spaces that transcend political divides.
Environmental experts Lisa Wozniak of Michigan League of Conservation Voters and Vania Guevara of Chispa Arizona join the conversation, bringing frontline perspectives on how these federal actions directly harm local communities and ecosystems. Wozniak details the terrifying spread of invasive sea lamprey in the Great Lakes, while Guevara shares how extreme heat in Arizona claimed over 1,000 lives last year – both problems exacerbated by weakened environmental agencies.
The discussion delves into the economic devastation facing rural communities dependent on park tourism, the disproportionate impacts on communities of color, and the strategic communication needed to build environmental consensus across political lines. Despite the federal retreat from climate leadership exemplified by the Paris Climate Accord withdrawal, the conversation offers hope through state-level action and grassroots advocacy.
Join these powerful women leaders as they chart a path forward for environmental protection when Washington won't lead. Whether you're concerned about public lands, climate justice, or the economic health of your community, this episode delivers crucial insights into one of today's most urgent battles.
Subscribe now and join the conversation about how we can protect our natural heritage for future generations regardless of political headwinds.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Dana Nes (00:04):
Hello podcast listeners.
I'm Michigan Attorney General,Dana Nessel, here with my fellow
AG from Arizona Kris Mayes,and today we're diving into some
issues that are affecting ournation, all the way from the
Grand Canyon to the Great Lakes.
Attorney General Kris May (00:19):
We're here to break it all down and
make sure you have theinformation you need to stay in
the know.
Let's get into it.
This is Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Trump and his administrationhave spent the last month or so
doing a number of pretty awfulthings.
They've been systematicallydeconstructing our federal
(00:43):
government, sacking tens ofthousands of employees.
They've been trying to clawback congressionally negotiated
funding for importantprogramming and generally sowing
chaos and confusion.
Attorney General Dana Ness (00:58):
Yeah , and this is obviously so bad
for workers.
It's bad for our communities inour states, all around our
country.
So today we really want tohighlight just how bad this is
for the environment, because, ofcourse, our ecosystems are so
delicate you know they don'tcare about politics and they can
really be harmed by even thesmallest changes, you know.
(01:20):
And whether you're rolling backprotections when we're already
on a ticking clock, theanti-science bent that we're
seeing, really no discernment ofany kind, just pure censorship
and more wide ranging than youmight think in terms of the
impact, whether it's the economy, public health or public safety
, it is all bad.
(01:48):
What is really perplexing to meis that any of these national
parks I mean, it's justbewildering to me.
Who is it that wants to see ournational parks defunded, so
much so that it's almostimpossible to get in or to
enjoyably utilize the parksbecause they're not properly
maintained and even somethinglike the public bathrooms not
(02:10):
being maintained?
I mean, who wants to go to ayou know, a national park where
you know that's an issue, orwhether it's just too dangerous,
honestly, to go into the parkbecause it's not properly
maintained or because it's notproperly staffed?
Attorney General Kris Maye (02:24):
Well , I think that's the point.
Nobody is, Dana, and you'reabsolutely right.
I mean, you know, here inArizona, folks across the
political spectrum use ournational parks.
We have so many sportsmen whouse our forests.
This is a part of who we are asAmericans is the ability to
(02:47):
access these public lands,whether it's a park or it's a
wilderness.
People forget.
You know a lot of folks outhere who love to hunt and fish
rely on having well-maintainedtrails and trail systems to
access these public lands to goout and hunt, and so this is not
(03:09):
going to go over well with awhole bunch of people, including
a lot of Republicans, out here.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (03:24):
I got to say that the Grand Canyon
.
Right, you are the Grand Canyonstate, we are People come from.
It's not that they come fromall over the United States,
which of course they do, theycome from all over the world to
see this.
And I remember the first timethat I saw the Grand Canyon and
I almost didn't believe it wasreal, because it is so
phenomenal to behold.
(03:44):
It's breathtaking.
You literally can't catch yourbreath when you're looking at it
.
With the absolute destructionof the National Park Service,
what is this going to mean tothe economy of Arizona.
Attorney General Kris Maye (03:57):
It's huge, yeah, and we're already
seeing the impacts of these cutsto the National Park Service
and the terminations of parkemployees.
The wait time outside of theGrand Canyon National Park is
we've heard upwards of multiplehours just to get into the park.
(04:17):
A county supervisor up theretold me that they're very
worried about a water pipelinethat is in the middle of being
constructed.
That provides water for whenyou know, especially during peak
tourism times, and we're aboutto be on that here, and it's not
just the Grand Canyon.
It's also Saguaro National Park.
(04:39):
We also have multiple gorgeousnational parks and wildernesses
here in Arizona, and yet DonaldTrump and Elon Musk are
rampaging through the ParkService and the Forest Service
and making these incrediblyridiculous and ill-timed cuts
(05:02):
with no reasoning whatsoever.
I'm worried about safety.
You know.
One of the things that our parkrangers do is make sure that
our campgrounds are safe and ifsomething happens, you know if
there's a medical emergency thatwe can, you know, get to people
quickly.
People forget about that.
There's a public safety aspectto making sure that we have
(05:26):
enough staffing at thesenational parks.
And with regard to the SaguaroNational Park, which is in the
southern part of Arizona alsobeautiful, Dana, when you make
it down here, you know they'vealready had to close the visitor
center.
You know, on one day a week.
andAnd the.
Here's the other point aboutour park system, which are
(05:46):
magnificent and unparalleledacross the world.
Right is, just think about theknock on effects to our economy
of our parks being debilitated,because you think about all of
the folks who have smallbusinesses who operate in or
around or associated with thenational park.
Think about Grand Canyon.
(06:07):
You know we have um tour guideswho take people on you know
river, river tours, you know,really, whitewater river rafting
.
It's a huge thing right atvarious parts, on various parts
of the Colorado River, whichflows through the Grand Canyon,
and if things are not operatingadequately in the Grand Canyon,
(06:28):
are people going to be able toor want to go on these river
trips?
And so there's all of thesesort of knock on economic
effects that are associated withthese cuts that are being made
by Trump that I think are goingto start to manifest and
materialize.
Attorney General Dana Ness (06:44):
Yeah , and that is a significant
concern for us in Michigan.
Sleeping Bear Dunes, whichhonestly it's one of the most
beautiful and picturesque thingsthat you'll ever see, these
amazing sand dunes that are offof Lake Michigan, and again it
almost seems like it's not real.
It's so beautiful.
And same thing with PicturedRocks, which is in our upper
(07:05):
peninsula it's unimaginableuntil the moment that you're
there and then you're just inawe of it.
But you have so many businesses, whether they're restaurants,
whether they're motels or hotels, whether, as you indicated, the
tour guides, you have wholeeconomies that are sustained off
of people attending in largenumbers, um, incredible parks.
So it's not just that you arenot saving money by laying off
(07:32):
members of the park service.
There are only people sometimeswho are in those areas to go to
that national park.
And if, well, even if there isthe reputation of like hey,
don't go to this national parkbecause you know you'll never
get in, and if you is thereputation of like hey, don't go
to this national park becauseyou know you'll never get in,
and if you do, the place is kindof a disaster.
It's not safe for you or yourfamily to go in there, or it's
just you know it's just a mess.
(07:52):
It's not an enjoyableexperience.
You are going to have asignificant drop off in the
number of people who are goingand it's going to ripple across
the economy and it's going to bedevastating to both our states.
Attorney General Kris Maye (08:04):
Yeah , I think that's a really good
point, and a lot of thesecommunities are in rural Arizona
I assume rural Michigan as wellwhich are already hurting
economically.
These are communities thatalready, in a lot of cases, feel
left behind by our economy andby leadership.
And you know, I think about atown like called Williams,
(08:28):
Arizona, which is sort of one ofthe gateways to the Grand
Canyon, and any of these sort ofgateway communities that are in
rural Arizona or rural Michiganthat are around the parks that
are already hurting but theymanaged to keep going by virtue
of the tourism traffic to ourparks.
So none of that was considered,of course, by Trump and Elon
(08:53):
Musk when they were making thesehideous decisions to make these
cuts.
(09:13):
Are they really just setting upprivatization?
Do they just want to privatizeour national parks?
And you know, I don't knowabout you, but I'm not looking
forward to the Grand Canyonbecoming a theme park or
whatever else some privateentity would try to make it into
.
I know Arizonans don't want tosee that happen, so for me
(09:36):
that's a sort of potential endgame that they're after here,
which is to deprive our parksand other areas government of
resources.
Then it looks like they can'texist without privatization, and
then try to privatize all of it.
Attorney General Dana Ness (09:52):
Yeah , you know, obviously this is
supposed to be modeled in manyways after the Elon Musk motto.
Which I thought was so clever: that was judged in one of our (09:59):
undefined
cases involving the federalemployees, the RIFs, the
reduction in force cases wherethe judge said it's fine to move
fast, but you can't breakthings if what you're breaking
is the law and you know so.
(10:20):
The privatized, the models thatwork with private companies,
just don't apply to thegovernment, because the fact is
that the government is there totake care of all its people.
We ought to recognize that andwhenever we've seen a plan to do
this and I will say this we hadprivatization in Michigan that
the former Republican governor,you know Governor Snyder, who
(10:46):
preceded Governor Whitmerexperimented with privatization
of the food services in theMichigan Department of
Corrections, and it only lasteda short period of time, because
what they found is that thenutritional values of the meals
were so lacking that, of course,it was generating lawsuits and
you were actually losing moremoney than whatever you were
(11:07):
saving, because all this companycared about was how much money
they could save and it wasn'tproviding nutritious meals to
people that were in theircustody and they had to end the
whole experiment, and thatwasn't even privatizing our
prisons, it was just foodservices within the prisons, and
it was an experiment that endedin abject failure because, at
the end of the day, yourgovernment is supposed to care
(11:28):
about feeding people who don'thave another way to get their
meals.
Yeah, whereas a job of a companyis to care about its bottom
line.
There are so many places totrim fat in federal government,
Attorney General Kri (11:40):
Absolutely no, no, no.
The national parks are not oneof them, and environmental
protection is not one of them.
Attorney General Dana Ness (11:48):
What are we going to do?
Because I'll tell you what inMichigan I know they're not
going to be cool with like oh, Iguess we're just gonna let half
as many of the people into ournational parks.
coming up on summer tourism
Attorney General Kris Maye (11:56):
Yeah .
And I think we're barrelingtoward that So how is this going
to go and whatare we going to do as states to
fill in the gap, which is reallyhard when we're already
struggling in other areas?
Joining us for today'sdiscussion, please welcome Lisa
(12:34):
Wozniakof Michigan League of
Conservation Voters and VaniaGuevara of Chispa, Arizona.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (12:38):
So firstly and Lisa and I have
known each other for a whilelet's start by talking about
this How's my hair
Lisa Wozniak (12:45):
Hair looks fabulous,
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:46):
Does it?
Good, all right, because youknow that's the most important
thing to me.
Lisa Wozniak (12:51):
I was just thinking it's a pleasure to be
on with all these women withgreat hair.
I know right.
Attorney General Kris May (12:56):
Great hair and great minds.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (12:58):
You don't get that with the Joe
Rogan podcast.
So if you could, just for bothyou guys, if you could tell us a
little bit about the work thatyour organizations do, and let's
start with you, Lisa.
Lisa Wozniak (13:12):
Sure, I am privileged to run the Michigan
League of Conservation Voters.
Here in Michigan, we areliterally defined by the water
that surrounds us.
20% of the Earth's surfacewater right is right here in our
midst.
It surrounds us, it envelops usand it defines us.
So, no matter what we work on,we work on those issues through
(13:35):
a water lens and we have alsobeen the place where we've had
some really significant thingshappen in this state that have
called put the red alerts up forthe rest of the country around
the importance of protection ourwater.
Whether it's the contaminationof PFAS in our waterways,
(13:56):
whether it's going back a fewdecades to the mercury
contamination that was comingout of, notably coal plants,
that's heavy metal goes straightup, comes straight back down,
goes right into the water rightinto the fish and then right
into human bodies.
Or, frankly, the horrible thingthat happened in Flint,
Michigan with the leadcontamination right from old
(14:17):
infrastructure and pipes, andthat translates also to climate
change.
Everything in Michigan is seenthrough that water lens and
people care deeply.
Whether you're Republican,democrat or independent, people
care deeply about the water thatthey drink, the health of their
children, their ability torecreate and fish and be outside
in this beautiful place that weget to call home.
(14:39):
One of the things I think we'rebest known for is our
accountability.
We hold the whole suite ofelected officials at our state
level accountable, so thatincludes the governor, the state
legislature, the secretary ofstate and, yes, indeed, the
attorney general.
Attorney General Dana Ness (14:56):
Just so that AG Mayes knows, what is
my score on environmentalissues?
Lisa Wozniak (15:00):
Gee, let me think about this.
Oh, it's a hundred percent!
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:05):
Wow I'm impressed, Dana, although I
have to say I don't think I geta score out here.
I don't think we score the AG,but I want to make sure that
happens because you're probablyour biggest champion in the
state, I must say, forenvironmental justice.
I guess she gives me hope,honestly, with everything going
(15:26):
on.
Well, bienvenida, buenos dias,good morning.
My name is Vania Guevara.
I'm the advocacy and politicaldirector with Chispa Arizona.
At Chispa Arizona, we organizeour Latinx communities to grow
political power and civicengagement for environmental
justice and we are a program ofthe League of Conservation
Voters.
Attorney General Kris May (15:43):
Vania , I've obviously worked closely
with you and with Chispa in thepast.
I'm a huge fan of Chispa andeverything that you guys have
accomplished over the years inArizona.
You know you spoke to theutility issue out here A lot.
You know a lot of the battleshave been about trying to get
our utilities to invest more inrenewable energy and energy
(16:05):
efficiency and trying to makesure that, as coal plants are
shut down, our indigenouscommunities are treated fairly.
But what is the sort ofoverarching objective of your
organization?
Vania Guevara (16:17):
I think for us, the desert is a very sacred
place and we can refer to that,going back to the original
stewards of the land.
And the current stewards of theland and I know we're deeply
motivated and inspired by ourindigenous relatives are the
tribes who's, you know, at theforefront at a lot of these
(16:39):
fights, who are facingenvironmental justice, access to
public lands, and so I thinkfor us, given the sanctity of
the earth and I know for mepersonally, I've sort of been on
my own personal mission andjourney to reconnect with my
indigeneity and how much of anot only a reciprocal
relationship that us as humanshave or should have with nature,
(17:03):
but how much of us is in natureand vice versa Our communities
are disproportionately impactedby climate change and the
quality of air that we'rebreathing, and you know, heat is
an extreme, I mean extreme heatis a huge problem in our
communities, and so just seeingthe disparity and honestly, just
I've had the privilege oftraveling to el salvador which
(17:24):
is where my, my family is from,um traveling throughout colombia
, mexico, and one thing that'sconstant in latin america is
public spaces that bring peopletogether with trees and access
to nature, and I genuinely feellike an increased quality of
life or a sense of self when I'moutside.
I want to bring that to Phoenixand to the communities in
(17:44):
Arizona to also experience beingoutdoors and being connected to
nature in a beautiful andsacred way.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (17:52):
So I don't know if you're both
aware of this or not, but wehave a new president and not the
(18:16):
most environmentally friendlypresident in American history
and has taken quite a fewactions, many of which, of
course, ag Mays and I have beenhotly contesting in a number of
different court proceedings.
But how has the Trumpadministration, given how, I
(18:36):
would say, anti-environment theyare, given how you have a
president that doesn't believein climate change?
I mean, how is that affectingall of the hard work that both
of you have done over the courseof so many years?
Lisa Wozniak (18:51):
Well, yeah, I'd be happy to step in on this, and
first I want to thank both ofyou, Attorney General Mayes and
Attorney General Nessel, foryour incredible work and
actually pushing back on thisadministration, and it has it's
been very, very important.
So you have given a lot ofpeople a lot of energy and
enthusiasm to get in this fightto protect the things that they
(19:12):
care about most.
This fight to protect thethings that they care about most
.
So you are true leaders in this.
I'll speak about this from aperspective of the Great Lakes
region and Michigan inparticular, since that is where
I sit.
But the cuts to things like theEPA, noaa, the US Fish and
Wildlife Service, the parks thisis all going to have tremendous
(19:34):
impact on the places that wecare about most and, frankly, on
public health.
I don't know that the nationreally understands and that's
part of this challenge howimportant the work of the
Environmental Protection Agencyis, but it is protecting us from
toxins in our air, our land andour water.
The work of NOAA is deeplyembedded in things like making
(19:57):
sure that our Great Lakes arenot fully infested with
something that's called sealamprey, which can be
devastating.
Have you ever seen a picture ofthese things.
They're horrifying.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (20:07):
I talk about sea lamprey.
Like, obviously, I'm obsessedwith sea lamprey so I just sent
AG Mayes a picture not too longago, just so that she would know
what they look like, yeah,
Lisa Wozniak (20:19):
they are quite something, and if any folks that
are listening, they should goand Google this and take a look
at them, because they are justhorrible and they are
devastating.
And during the COVID epidemic,we had to pause some of the work
that was being done to controlthem and the impact was
astounding.
They tripled in number and thestats on this is that each
(20:41):
lamprey, for example, eats 40pounds of fish over its two to
three year lifespan and eachfemale has a hundred thousand
babies.
And the impact on this in theGreat Lakes is specifically
related to fisheries rightCommercial and recreational.
And it will just change theentire ecosystem of the Great
Lakes.
So I have found that people thatactually are connected to
(21:02):
recreational and commercialfisheries both Democrats,
republicans and independents arehighly concerned about this.
In addition, frankly, we havewhat are called areas of concern
in the Great Lakes right, theseare highly toxic areas A lot of
them in the Great Lakes region,because we have a ton of
manufacturing here, and thoseareas of concern are actually
monitored and cared for andcleaned up by things like the
(21:24):
Great Lakes RestorationInitiative.
Much of that is done in concertwith our friends at the EPA.
Okay, these things are allunder threat right now, and
again I want to underscore it'sit is our great outdoors, it's
our natural places, it is,frankly, public health, it's the
again, it's the air that webreathe, the water that we drink
and the ability to be in ournatural world without feeling
(21:47):
like you're going to be poisoned, and so these are real impacts
coming from the Trumpadministration right now.
Vania Guevara (21:53):
Yeah, I definitely plus one to
everything you've just said,Lisa, and then I wanted to
mention that also unfortunatelyfor communities of color.
I don't want to say this isn'tnew, but we're constantly under
attack.
Our movement in environmentaljustice is an intersectional one
.
So immigration, community safetyand all of those lanes we're
constantly having to fight forbetter quality of air or access
(22:16):
to education or just having anoverall sense of safety, but
also balance, demanding morefrom our elected officials
regardless of political party,and I don't have to say that for
AG Mayes.
she's on top of it, she's veryproactive and amazing, and we
just need more champions likeher, I think, in order for us to
get the things that we need toaddress a lot of these issues.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (22:39):
So both of you have raised, at
least tangentially, if notdirectly, an issue that I am
really interested in, which is,you know, we know, that climate
change obviously is a real thing.
I think, you know, the majorityof Arizonans believe that our
climate is changing.
(23:00):
In Arizona, out here, we areseeing hotter and hotter summers
, summers that last forever andever.
We recorded Arizona recorded1,030 deaths related to our
cause by heat statewide.
We know wildfires are becomingmore extreme, more dangerous,
and yet, you know, in ruralparts of our of our states and
(23:21):
red parts of our country, westill have this resistance to
the even the words climatechange, and I think Trump, like
took it, you know, required thatit be taken out of documents
and off of websites, which istotally insane.
So one of my, one of the thingsI'm interested in is how do we
talk, how do we, how do we makethe connections with rural parts
(23:42):
of our state and withRepublicans and conservatives
about climate change, because Iknow it's impacting all of us.
Vania Guevara (23:50):
I can start with a little bit of how we start
talking about it.
So one thing that I have founduseful, because maybe last
legislative session I couldn'tsay words like transportation
equity or environmental justiceor climate justice, depending on
who was chairing the committee,so I literally had to spell out
like, regardless of politicalparty, we believe that everyone
(24:13):
deserves access to healthy air.
And I find that the more I starttalking about it from like a
class perspective versus likerace, or like black and brown or
white, because sometimes peopletalk in a very dehumanizing way
.
So if I bring it.
I'm like hey, you have nieces ordaughters or sons.
We all want the same things.
We want them to have breathableair, we want them to not
(24:34):
experience asthma and higherrates than in other communities.
That's all we're asking for,like, we just don't want our
kids to be experiencing thesehealth issues because of heat,
because of the climate, you know.
Or if I ask you know you'rerepresenting rural Arizona.
I may not say climate change,but I'll ask, like do you see
patterns or a difference in thetime of year and how hot it
(24:55):
might be getting?
Is it getting hotter longer?
Yeah, okay, that's an issue.
I won't say climate change, butI literally have to define it
or draw this picture about whatit might look like, or ask them
to think about what it lookslike, and I think that's where
we find common ground.
But it's a lot of work.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (25:11):
I'm going to ask a different
question, but on a very relatedtopic.
You know, obviously Trump haspulled out of the Paris Climate
Accord again and I guess I'mwondering, for the purposes of
your work, like what is the realworld impact of this?
Obviously, he did it last timehe was in office, and then
President Biden reentered theaccords, reentered the accords,
(25:36):
and now we're back in a placewhere the United States of
America is not a part of thisreally important global
agreement.
So I guess, Lisa, if you couldtell us, what do you think the
impact of that is?
Lisa Wozniak (25:47):
I think it's tremendous.
I think it's not only a reallyhugely detrimental action in
terms of people's trust of usaround the globe and seeing us
as leaders on issues that mattermost and this existential
crisis couldn't be higher on thelist but I think, fundamentally
in terms of how it impactspeople in place.
(26:07):
This is going to mean thatpeople that are already
disproportionately impacted asVania has said very clearly are
going to get hit harder bythings like particulate matter
and disproportionate impacts oftoxins in the air on people's
ability to breathe.
I think we all know that thepeople that live in heavily
industrialized areas, theproportion of kids and, frankly,
(26:30):
other age groups that are onasthma inhalers is just
skyrocketing, right.
So this is going to have likereal life impacts on people all
across this country, and I don'tthink people understand that.
I mean we have to take it downto that level to have people
understand what clean energy andclimate change and taking
action in moving us forwardreally means, and I want to
(26:52):
pivot to sew these two questionstogether about how we talk
about this, because I think that, fundamentally, is why the
president has been able to movein this direction.
He doesn't feel like thegeneral public is there on this
issue, which I think istremendously wrong.
But as we talk about theseissues, I'll give you an example
.
In Michigan in 2023, ourgovernor gave her state of the
(27:14):
state address and she barelytalked about climate and clean
energy, and she talked a lotabout kitchen table issues.
And my colleague turned to meand he said you know what we're
going to make climate and cleanenergy a kitchen table issue and
over the course of the next sixto seven months, we've talked
about economic impact, we talkedabout, talked about utility
(27:35):
rates and we worked in districtsall across the state and by the
by October of that year, we hadthe legislature in a place
where they passed the CleanEnergy and Jobs Act in Michigan,
the strongest piece of climateand clean energy legislation is
this state has ever seen and putus on track to be one of the
five top states in this countryaddressing this existential
(27:57):
challenge, right.
So it's really about making surewe're talking about things in
ways that connect with people,and I'll also say that people
are seeing this.
I mean, Attorney General Nessel, you and I saw and breathed the
air here in Michigan with theCanadian wildfires, right?
People are saying to me don'twe have some kind of machine
where we could kind of blow thisout.
I'm like, well, not really, youknow, we can't do that.
(28:18):
I mean, these are things thatpeople are seeing and feeling
and as they start to connect thedots, there will be increasing
pressure for our electedofficials to take action on this
issue.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (28:30):
You know, I think it's a huge
problem and I think it iscausing people to think about
this, but we also need people tobe willing to take action.
We can't have the federalgovernment doing what it's doing
right now, which is literallypulling back, and Vania
mentioned this, pulling back onthe IRA funds and the investment
(28:52):
, the Infrastructure Act funds,all of which were designed to
try to expand the amount ofrenewable energy and energy
efficiency that our states aregetting, to deal with climate
change and to deal with extremeheat.
I mean, think about the fact,dana, that if they had been
successful with the federalfunding freeze, which we sued to
(29:13):
stop, they were going to defundratepayer assistance funding
like LIHEAP, which helps peoplesurvive both in the wintertime
in Michigan and in thesummertime in Arizona, and that
is the level of insanity thatwe've gotten to with this Trump
administration.
(29:34):
But you know, and Vania, if youhave anything to add to, that.
Vania Guevara (29:38):
Yeah, we experienced seasonal depression
here too.
It's, you know, the PacificNorthwest.
It's like, right here peoplearen't able to go outside
because it's so hot.
I myself have stopped.
I think last summer I countedfive people.
I had to stop and get a bottleof Gatorade and water because
they were passed out.
They were experiencingsomething the heat, they fainted
(29:59):
, and so it's seeking help fromyou know, the government, or
just making it more of an issueand ringing the alarm because
it's getting hotter and Iquestion like, by the time I pay
my mortgage in 30 years andhave my house paid off, will I
be able to live here?
Like, is it going to besustainable in 30 years for us
to be here in the summers?
Lisa Wozniak (30:21):
May I add just quickly that you know, as the
federal government goes throughits machinations right now and
tries to decide, sort of likeyou know where they're going to
start and stop on all of this.
You know, taking apart of thevery protections that people
have relied on for so long,States are still going to remain
strong and I believe that stateand municipal government is the
(30:42):
place where action willcontinue to be taken, whether
it's protecting our water oraddressing climate change and
clean energy, and 70% of thekind of actions and changes that
have happened in this countryover the last two decades have
happened at the state andmunicipal level.
That's not an excuse for thefederal level not taking action
or taking apart anything that'sgoing on right now, but the
(31:04):
state level work is going to bemore important than ever and I
believe, with leaders like bothof you and having leadership at
the top of the with governors,we can continue to move forward
on these issues, and we must.
We absolutely must.
Attorney General Kris Maye (31:17):
Lisa , I totally agree with you and
as one of the co-authors ofArizona's Renewable Energy
Standard back in 2003, and ourEnergy Efficiency Standard and
our net metering rulesencouraging rooftop solar,
you're right.
I mean.
So much of the progress that wehave made as a country on
(31:38):
climate change and clean energystarted starts and ends with the
states, but we really do need.
We need the federal governmentto not hurt us in this regard at
a minimum.
So appreciate you both being onthe podcast.
This has been a fantasticdiscussion.
Attorney General Dana Nes (31:56):
Thank you so much for both being on
and for joining us, and thankyou so much for your hard work
and your dedication,irrespective of what's happening
at the federal government level, we know you guys are both
really dedicated to the statesthat you're serving, so thank
you.
Lisa Wozniak (32:12):
Well, thank both of you, and what an honor to be
on here with all three of you,so let's all keep up the good
work.
Vania Guevara (32:18):
Likewise Inspired by you all.
Thank you so much.
Thank you guys.
Attorney General Kris Ma (32:27):
That's all the time we have.
Thanks again for listening toPantsuits and Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (32:33):
For more insight into the most
pressing legal discussionstaking place right now, be sure
to subscribe and follow us onsocial media.
Attorney General Kris Maye (32:41):
Keep your pantsuits pressed and
ready and we will see you nexttime.
Hello podcast listeners.
I'm Michigan Attorney General,Dana Nessel, here with my fellow
AG from Arizona Kris Mayes,and today we're diving into some
issues that are affecting ournation, all the way from the
Grand Canyon to the Great Lakes.
Attorney General Kris May (00:19):
We're here to break it all down and
make sure you have theinformation you need to stay in
the know.
Let's get into it.
This is Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Trump and his administrationhave spent the last month or so
doing a number of pretty awfulthings.
They've been systematicallydeconstructing our federal
(00:43):
government, sacking tens ofthousands of employees.
They've been trying to clawback congressionally negotiated
funding for importantprogramming and generally sowing
chaos and confusion.
Attorney General Dana Ness (00:58):
Yeah , and this is obviously so bad
for workers.
It's bad for our communities inour states, all around our
country.
So today we really want tohighlight just how bad this is
for the environment, because, ofcourse, our ecosystems are so
delicate you know they don'tcare about politics and they can
really be harmed by even thesmallest changes, you know.
(01:20):
And whether you're rolling backprotections when we're already
on a ticking clock, theanti-science bent that we're
seeing, really no discernment ofany kind, just pure censorship
and more wide ranging than youmight think in terms of the
impact, whether it's the economy, public health or public safety
, it is all bad.
(01:48):
What is really perplexing to meis that any of these national
parks I mean, it's justbewildering to me.
Who is it that wants to see ournational parks defunded, so
much so that it's almostimpossible to get in or to
enjoyably utilize the parksbecause they're not properly
maintained and even somethinglike the public bathrooms not
(02:10):
being maintained?
I mean, who wants to go to ayou know, a national park where
you know that's an issue, orwhether it's just too dangerous,
honestly, to go into the parkbecause it's not properly
maintained or because it's notproperly staffed?
Attorney General Kris Maye (02:24):
Well , I think that's the point.
Nobody is, Dana, and you'reabsolutely right.
I mean, you know, here inArizona, folks across the
political spectrum use ournational parks.
We have so many sportsmen whouse our forests.
This is a part of who we are asAmericans is the ability to
(02:47):
access these public lands,whether it's a park or it's a
wilderness.
People forget.
You know a lot of folks outhere who love to hunt and fish
rely on having well-maintainedtrails and trail systems to
access these public lands to goout and hunt, and so this is not
(03:09):
going to go over well with awhole bunch of people, including
a lot of Republicans, out here.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (03:24):
I got to say that the Grand Canyon
.
Right, you are the Grand Canyonstate, we are People come from.
It's not that they come fromall over the United States,
which of course they do, theycome from all over the world to
see this.
And I remember the first timethat I saw the Grand Canyon and
I almost didn't believe it wasreal, because it is so
phenomenal to behold.
(03:44):
It's breathtaking.
You literally can't catch yourbreath when you're looking at it
.
With the absolute destructionof the National Park Service,
what is this going to mean tothe economy of Arizona.
Attorney General Kris Maye (03:57):
It's huge, yeah, and we're already
seeing the impacts of these cutsto the National Park Service
and the terminations of parkemployees.
The wait time outside of theGrand Canyon National Park is
we've heard upwards of multiplehours just to get into the park.
(04:17):
A county supervisor up theretold me that they're very
worried about a water pipelinethat is in the middle of being
constructed.
That provides water for whenyou know, especially during peak
tourism times, and we're aboutto be on that here, and it's not
just the Grand Canyon.
It's also Saguaro National Park.
(04:39):
We also have multiple gorgeousnational parks and wildernesses
here in Arizona, and yet DonaldTrump and Elon Musk are
rampaging through the ParkService and the Forest Service
and making these incrediblyridiculous and ill-timed cuts
(05:02):
with no reasoning whatsoever.
I'm worried about safety.
You know.
One of the things that our parkrangers do is make sure that
our campgrounds are safe and ifsomething happens, you know if
there's a medical emergency thatwe can, you know, get to people
quickly.
People forget about that.
There's a public safety aspectto making sure that we have
(05:26):
enough staffing at thesenational parks.
And with regard to the SaguaroNational Park, which is in the
southern part of Arizona alsobeautiful, Dana, when you make
it down here, you know they'vealready had to close the visitor
center.
You know, on one day a week.
andAnd the.
Here's the other point aboutour park system, which are
(05:46):
magnificent and unparalleledacross the world.
Right is, just think about theknock on effects to our economy
of our parks being debilitated,because you think about all of
the folks who have smallbusinesses who operate in or
around or associated with thenational park.
Think about Grand Canyon.
(06:07):
You know we have um tour guideswho take people on you know
river, river tours, you know,really, whitewater river rafting
.
It's a huge thing right atvarious parts, on various parts
of the Colorado River, whichflows through the Grand Canyon,
and if things are not operatingadequately in the Grand Canyon,
(06:28):
are people going to be able toor want to go on these river
trips?
And so there's all of thesesort of knock on economic
effects that are associated withthese cuts that are being made
by Trump that I think are goingto start to manifest and
materialize.
Attorney General Dana Ness (06:44):
Yeah , and that is a significant
concern for us in Michigan.
Sleeping Bear Dunes, whichhonestly it's one of the most
beautiful and picturesque thingsthat you'll ever see, these
amazing sand dunes that are offof Lake Michigan, and again it
almost seems like it's not real.
It's so beautiful.
And same thing with PicturedRocks, which is in our upper
(07:05):
peninsula it's unimaginableuntil the moment that you're
there and then you're just inawe of it.
But you have so many businesses, whether they're restaurants,
whether they're motels or hotels, whether, as you indicated, the
tour guides, you have wholeeconomies that are sustained off
of people attending in largenumbers, um, incredible parks.
So it's not just that you arenot saving money by laying off
(07:32):
members of the park service.
There are only people sometimeswho are in those areas to go to
that national park.
And if, well, even if there isthe reputation of like hey,
don't go to this national parkbecause you know you'll never
get in, and if you is thereputation of like hey, don't go
to this national park becauseyou know you'll never get in,
and if you do, the place is kindof a disaster.
It's not safe for you or yourfamily to go in there, or it's
just you know it's just a mess.
(07:52):
It's not an enjoyableexperience.
You are going to have asignificant drop off in the
number of people who are goingand it's going to ripple across
the economy and it's going to bedevastating to both our states.
Attorney General Kris Maye (08:04):
Yeah , I think that's a really good
point, and a lot of thesecommunities are in rural Arizona
I assume rural Michigan as wellwhich are already hurting
economically.
These are communities thatalready, in a lot of cases, feel
left behind by our economy andby leadership.
And you know, I think about atown like called Williams,
(08:28):
Arizona, which is sort of one ofthe gateways to the Grand
Canyon, and any of these sort ofgateway communities that are in
rural Arizona or rural Michiganthat are around the parks that
are already hurting but theymanaged to keep going by virtue
of the tourism traffic to ourparks.
So none of that was considered,of course, by Trump and Elon
(08:53):
Musk when they were making thesehideous decisions to make these
cuts.
(09:13):
Are they really just setting upprivatization?
Do they just want to privatizeour national parks?
And you know, I don't knowabout you, but I'm not looking
forward to the Grand Canyonbecoming a theme park or
whatever else some privateentity would try to make it into
.
I know Arizonans don't want tosee that happen, so for me
(09:36):
that's a sort of potential endgame that they're after here,
which is to deprive our parksand other areas government of
resources.
Then it looks like they can'texist without privatization, and
then try to privatize all of it.
Attorney General Dana Ness (09:52):
Yeah , you know, obviously this is
supposed to be modeled in manyways after the Elon Musk motto.
Which I thought was so clever: that was judged in one of our (09:59):
undefined
cases involving the federalemployees, the RIFs, the
reduction in force cases wherethe judge said it's fine to move
fast, but you can't breakthings if what you're breaking
is the law and you know so.
(10:20):
The privatized, the models thatwork with private companies,
just don't apply to thegovernment, because the fact is
that the government is there totake care of all its people.
We ought to recognize that andwhenever we've seen a plan to do
this and I will say this we hadprivatization in Michigan that
the former Republican governor,you know Governor Snyder, who
(10:46):
preceded Governor Whitmerexperimented with privatization
of the food services in theMichigan Department of
Corrections, and it only lasteda short period of time, because
what they found is that thenutritional values of the meals
were so lacking that, of course,it was generating lawsuits and
you were actually losing moremoney than whatever you were
(11:07):
saving, because all this companycared about was how much money
they could save and it wasn'tproviding nutritious meals to
people that were in theircustody and they had to end the
whole experiment, and thatwasn't even privatizing our
prisons, it was just foodservices within the prisons, and
it was an experiment that endedin abject failure because, at
the end of the day, yourgovernment is supposed to care
(11:28):
about feeding people who don'thave another way to get their
meals.
Yeah, whereas a job of a companyis to care about its bottom
line.
There are so many places totrim fat in federal government,
Attorney General Kri (11:40):
Absolutely no, no, no.
The national parks are not oneof them, and environmental
protection is not one of them.
Attorney General Dana Ness (11:48):
What are we going to do?
Because I'll tell you what inMichigan I know they're not
going to be cool with like oh, Iguess we're just gonna let half
as many of the people into ournational parks.
coming up on summer tourism
Attorney General Kris Maye (11:56):
Yeah .
And I think we're barrelingtoward that So how is this going
to go and whatare we going to do as states to
fill in the gap, which is reallyhard when we're already
struggling in other areas?
Joining us for today'sdiscussion, please welcome Lisa
(12:34):
Wozniakof Michigan League of
Conservation Voters and VaniaGuevara of Chispa, Arizona.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (12:38):
So firstly and Lisa and I have
known each other for a whilelet's start by talking about
this How's my hair
Lisa Wozniak (12:45):
Hair looks fabulous,
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:46):
Does it?
Good, all right, because youknow that's the most important
thing to me.
Lisa Wozniak (12:51):
I was just thinking it's a pleasure to be
on with all these women withgreat hair.
I know right.
Attorney General Kris May (12:56):
Great hair and great minds.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (12:58):
You don't get that with the Joe
Rogan podcast.
So if you could, just for bothyou guys, if you could tell us a
little bit about the work thatyour organizations do, and let's
start with you, Lisa.
Lisa Wozniak (13:12):
Sure, I am privileged to run the Michigan
League of Conservation Voters.
Here in Michigan, we areliterally defined by the water
that surrounds us.
20% of the Earth's surfacewater right is right here in our
midst.
It surrounds us, it envelops usand it defines us.
So, no matter what we work on,we work on those issues through
(13:35):
a water lens and we have alsobeen the place where we've had
some really significant thingshappen in this state that have
called put the red alerts up forthe rest of the country around
the importance of protection ourwater.
Whether it's the contaminationof PFAS in our waterways,
(13:56):
whether it's going back a fewdecades to the mercury
contamination that was comingout of, notably coal plants,
that's heavy metal goes straightup, comes straight back down,
goes right into the water rightinto the fish and then right
into human bodies.
Or, frankly, the horrible thingthat happened in Flint,
Michigan with the leadcontamination right from old
(14:17):
infrastructure and pipes, andthat translates also to climate
change.
Everything in Michigan is seenthrough that water lens and
people care deeply.
Whether you're Republican,democrat or independent, people
care deeply about the water thatthey drink, the health of their
children, their ability torecreate and fish and be outside
in this beautiful place that weget to call home.
(14:39):
One of the things I think we'rebest known for is our
accountability.
We hold the whole suite ofelected officials at our state
level accountable, so thatincludes the governor, the state
legislature, the secretary ofstate and, yes, indeed, the
attorney general.
Attorney General Dana Ness (14:56):
Just so that AG Mayes knows, what is
my score on environmentalissues?
Lisa Wozniak (15:00):
Gee, let me think about this.
Oh, it's a hundred percent!
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:05):
Wow I'm impressed, Dana, although I
have to say I don't think I geta score out here.
I don't think we score the AG,but I want to make sure that
happens because you're probablyour biggest champion in the
state, I must say, forenvironmental justice.
I guess she gives me hope,honestly, with everything going
(15:26):
on.
Well, bienvenida, buenos dias,good morning.
My name is Vania Guevara.
I'm the advocacy and politicaldirector with Chispa Arizona.
At Chispa Arizona, we organizeour Latinx communities to grow
political power and civicengagement for environmental
justice and we are a program ofthe League of Conservation
Voters.
Attorney General Kris May (15:43):
Vania , I've obviously worked closely
with you and with Chispa in thepast.
I'm a huge fan of Chispa andeverything that you guys have
accomplished over the years inArizona.
You know you spoke to theutility issue out here A lot.
You know a lot of the battleshave been about trying to get
our utilities to invest more inrenewable energy and energy
(16:05):
efficiency and trying to makesure that, as coal plants are
shut down, our indigenouscommunities are treated fairly.
But what is the sort ofoverarching objective of your
organization?
Vania Guevara (16:17):
I think for us, the desert is a very sacred
place and we can refer to that,going back to the original
stewards of the land.
And the current stewards of theland and I know we're deeply
motivated and inspired by ourindigenous relatives are the
tribes who's, you know, at theforefront at a lot of these
(16:39):
fights, who are facingenvironmental justice, access to
public lands, and so I thinkfor us, given the sanctity of
the earth and I know for mepersonally, I've sort of been on
my own personal mission andjourney to reconnect with my
indigeneity and how much of anot only a reciprocal
relationship that us as humanshave or should have with nature,
(17:03):
but how much of us is in natureand vice versa Our communities
are disproportionately impactedby climate change and the
quality of air that we'rebreathing, and you know, heat is
an extreme, I mean extreme heatis a huge problem in our
communities, and so just seeingthe disparity and honestly, just
I've had the privilege oftraveling to el salvador which
(17:24):
is where my, my family is from,um traveling throughout colombia
, mexico, and one thing that'sconstant in latin america is
public spaces that bring peopletogether with trees and access
to nature, and I genuinely feellike an increased quality of
life or a sense of self when I'moutside.
I want to bring that to Phoenixand to the communities in
(17:44):
Arizona to also experience beingoutdoors and being connected to
nature in a beautiful andsacred way.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (17:52):
So I don't know if you're both
aware of this or not, but wehave a new president and not the
(18:16):
most environmentally friendlypresident in American history
and has taken quite a fewactions, many of which, of
course, ag Mays and I have beenhotly contesting in a number of
different court proceedings.
But how has the Trumpadministration, given how, I
(18:36):
would say, anti-environment theyare, given how you have a
president that doesn't believein climate change?
I mean, how is that affectingall of the hard work that both
of you have done over the courseof so many years?
Lisa Wozniak (18:51):
Well, yeah, I'd be happy to step in on this, and
first I want to thank both ofyou, Attorney General Mayes and
Attorney General Nessel, foryour incredible work and
actually pushing back on thisadministration, and it has it's
been very, very important.
So you have given a lot ofpeople a lot of energy and
enthusiasm to get in this fightto protect the things that they
(19:12):
care about most.
This fight to protect thethings that they care about most
.
So you are true leaders in this.
I'll speak about this from aperspective of the Great Lakes
region and Michigan inparticular, since that is where
I sit.
But the cuts to things like theEPA, noaa, the US Fish and
Wildlife Service, the parks thisis all going to have tremendous
(19:34):
impact on the places that wecare about most and, frankly, on
public health.
I don't know that the nationreally understands and that's
part of this challenge howimportant the work of the
Environmental Protection Agencyis, but it is protecting us from
toxins in our air, our land andour water.
The work of NOAA is deeplyembedded in things like making
(19:57):
sure that our Great Lakes arenot fully infested with
something that's called sealamprey, which can be
devastating.
Have you ever seen a picture ofthese things.
They're horrifying.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (20:07):
I talk about sea lamprey.
Like, obviously, I'm obsessedwith sea lamprey so I just sent
AG Mayes a picture not too longago, just so that she would know
what they look like, yeah,
Lisa Wozniak (20:19):
they are quite something, and if any folks that
are listening, they should goand Google this and take a look
at them, because they are justhorrible and they are
devastating.
And during the COVID epidemic,we had to pause some of the work
that was being done to controlthem and the impact was
astounding.
They tripled in number and thestats on this is that each
(20:41):
lamprey, for example, eats 40pounds of fish over its two to
three year lifespan and eachfemale has a hundred thousand
babies.
And the impact on this in theGreat Lakes is specifically
related to fisheries rightCommercial and recreational.
And it will just change theentire ecosystem of the Great
Lakes.
So I have found that people thatactually are connected to
(21:02):
recreational and commercialfisheries both Democrats,
republicans and independents arehighly concerned about this.
In addition, frankly, we havewhat are called areas of concern
in the Great Lakes right, theseare highly toxic areas A lot of
them in the Great Lakes region,because we have a ton of
manufacturing here, and thoseareas of concern are actually
monitored and cared for andcleaned up by things like the
(21:24):
Great Lakes RestorationInitiative.
Much of that is done in concertwith our friends at the EPA.
Okay, these things are allunder threat right now, and
again I want to underscore it'sit is our great outdoors, it's
our natural places, it is,frankly, public health, it's the
again, it's the air that webreathe, the water that we drink
and the ability to be in ournatural world without feeling
(21:47):
like you're going to be poisoned, and so these are real impacts
coming from the Trumpadministration right now.
Vania Guevara (21:53):
Yeah, I definitely plus one to
everything you've just said,Lisa, and then I wanted to
mention that also unfortunatelyfor communities of color.
I don't want to say this isn'tnew, but we're constantly under
attack.
Our movement in environmentaljustice is an intersectional one
.
So immigration, community safetyand all of those lanes we're
constantly having to fight forbetter quality of air or access
(22:16):
to education or just having anoverall sense of safety, but
also balance, demanding morefrom our elected officials
regardless of political party,and I don't have to say that for
AG Mayes.
she's on top of it, she's veryproactive and amazing, and we
just need more champions likeher, I think, in order for us to
get the things that we need toaddress a lot of these issues.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (22:39):
So both of you have raised, at
least tangentially, if notdirectly, an issue that I am
really interested in, which is,you know, we know, that climate
change obviously is a real thing.
I think, you know, the majorityof Arizonans believe that our
climate is changing.
(23:00):
In Arizona, out here, we areseeing hotter and hotter summers
, summers that last forever andever.
We recorded Arizona recorded1,030 deaths related to our
cause by heat statewide.
We know wildfires are becomingmore extreme, more dangerous,
and yet, you know, in ruralparts of our of our states and
(23:21):
red parts of our country, westill have this resistance to
the even the words climatechange, and I think Trump, like
took it, you know, required thatit be taken out of documents
and off of websites, which istotally insane.
So one of my, one of the thingsI'm interested in is how do we
talk, how do we, how do we makethe connections with rural parts
(23:42):
of our state and withRepublicans and conservatives
about climate change, because Iknow it's impacting all of us.
Vania Guevara (23:50):
I can start with a little bit of how we start
talking about it.
So one thing that I have founduseful, because maybe last
legislative session I couldn'tsay words like transportation
equity or environmental justiceor climate justice, depending on
who was chairing the committee,so I literally had to spell out
like, regardless of politicalparty, we believe that everyone
(24:13):
deserves access to healthy air.
And I find that the more I starttalking about it from like a
class perspective versus likerace, or like black and brown or
white, because sometimes peopletalk in a very dehumanizing way
.
So if I bring it.
I'm like hey, you have nieces ordaughters or sons.
We all want the same things.
We want them to have breathableair, we want them to not
(24:34):
experience asthma and higherrates than in other communities.
That's all we're asking for,like, we just don't want our
kids to be experiencing thesehealth issues because of heat,
because of the climate, you know.
Or if I ask you know you'rerepresenting rural Arizona.
I may not say climate change,but I'll ask, like do you see
patterns or a difference in thetime of year and how hot it
(24:55):
might be getting?
Is it getting hotter longer?
Yeah, okay, that's an issue.
I won't say climate change, butI literally have to define it
or draw this picture about whatit might look like, or ask them
to think about what it lookslike, and I think that's where
we find common ground.
But it's a lot of work.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (25:11):
I'm going to ask a different
question, but on a very relatedtopic.
You know, obviously Trump haspulled out of the Paris Climate
Accord again and I guess I'mwondering, for the purposes of
your work, like what is the realworld impact of this?
Obviously, he did it last timehe was in office, and then
President Biden reentered theaccords, reentered the accords,
(25:36):
and now we're back in a placewhere the United States of
America is not a part of thisreally important global
agreement.
So I guess, Lisa, if you couldtell us, what do you think the
impact of that is?
Lisa Wozniak (25:47):
I think it's tremendous.
I think it's not only a reallyhugely detrimental action in
terms of people's trust of usaround the globe and seeing us
as leaders on issues that mattermost and this existential
crisis couldn't be higher on thelist but I think, fundamentally
in terms of how it impactspeople in place.
(26:07):
This is going to mean thatpeople that are already
disproportionately impacted asVania has said very clearly are
going to get hit harder bythings like particulate matter
and disproportionate impacts oftoxins in the air on people's
ability to breathe.
I think we all know that thepeople that live in heavily
industrialized areas, theproportion of kids and, frankly,
(26:30):
other age groups that are onasthma inhalers is just
skyrocketing, right.
So this is going to have likereal life impacts on people all
across this country, and I don'tthink people understand that.
I mean we have to take it downto that level to have people
understand what clean energy andclimate change and taking
action in moving us forwardreally means, and I want to
(26:52):
pivot to sew these two questionstogether about how we talk
about this, because I think that, fundamentally, is why the
president has been able to movein this direction.
He doesn't feel like thegeneral public is there on this
issue, which I think istremendously wrong.
But as we talk about theseissues, I'll give you an example
.
In Michigan in 2023, ourgovernor gave her state of the
(27:14):
state address and she barelytalked about climate and clean
energy, and she talked a lotabout kitchen table issues.
And my colleague turned to meand he said you know what we're
going to make climate and cleanenergy a kitchen table issue and
over the course of the next sixto seven months, we've talked
about economic impact, we talkedabout, talked about utility
(27:35):
rates and we worked in districtsall across the state and by the
by October of that year, we hadthe legislature in a place
where they passed the CleanEnergy and Jobs Act in Michigan,
the strongest piece of climateand clean energy legislation is
this state has ever seen and putus on track to be one of the
five top states in this countryaddressing this existential
(27:57):
challenge, right.
So it's really about making surewe're talking about things in
ways that connect with people,and I'll also say that people
are seeing this.
I mean, Attorney General Nessel, you and I saw and breathed the
air here in Michigan with theCanadian wildfires, right?
People are saying to me don'twe have some kind of machine
where we could kind of blow thisout.
I'm like, well, not really, youknow, we can't do that.
(28:18):
I mean, these are things thatpeople are seeing and feeling
and as they start to connect thedots, there will be increasing
pressure for our electedofficials to take action on this
issue.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (28:30):
You know, I think it's a huge
problem and I think it iscausing people to think about
this, but we also need people tobe willing to take action.
We can't have the federalgovernment doing what it's doing
right now, which is literallypulling back, and Vania
mentioned this, pulling back onthe IRA funds and the investment
(28:52):
, the Infrastructure Act funds,all of which were designed to
try to expand the amount ofrenewable energy and energy
efficiency that our states aregetting, to deal with climate
change and to deal with extremeheat.
I mean, think about the fact,dana, that if they had been
successful with the federalfunding freeze, which we sued to
(29:13):
stop, they were going to defundratepayer assistance funding
like LIHEAP, which helps peoplesurvive both in the wintertime
in Michigan and in thesummertime in Arizona, and that
is the level of insanity thatwe've gotten to with this Trump
administration.
(29:34):
But you know, and Vania, if youhave anything to add to, that.
Vania Guevara (29:38):
Yeah, we experienced seasonal depression
here too.
It's, you know, the PacificNorthwest.
It's like, right here peoplearen't able to go outside
because it's so hot.
I myself have stopped.
I think last summer I countedfive people.
I had to stop and get a bottleof Gatorade and water because
they were passed out.
They were experiencingsomething the heat, they fainted
(29:59):
, and so it's seeking help fromyou know, the government, or
just making it more of an issueand ringing the alarm because
it's getting hotter and Iquestion like, by the time I pay
my mortgage in 30 years andhave my house paid off, will I
be able to live here?
Like, is it going to besustainable in 30 years for us
to be here in the summers?
Lisa Wozniak (30:21):
May I add just quickly that you know, as the
federal government goes throughits machinations right now and
tries to decide, sort of likeyou know where they're going to
start and stop on all of this.
You know, taking apart of thevery protections that people
have relied on for so long,States are still going to remain
strong and I believe that stateand municipal government is the
(30:42):
place where action willcontinue to be taken, whether
it's protecting our water oraddressing climate change and
clean energy, and 70% of thekind of actions and changes that
have happened in this countryover the last two decades have
happened at the state andmunicipal level.
That's not an excuse for thefederal level not taking action
or taking apart anything that'sgoing on right now, but the
(31:04):
state level work is going to bemore important than ever and I
believe, with leaders like bothof you and having leadership at
the top of the with governors,we can continue to move forward
on these issues, and we must.
We absolutely must.
Attorney General Kris Maye (31:17):
Lisa , I totally agree with you and
as one of the co-authors ofArizona's Renewable Energy
Standard back in 2003, and ourEnergy Efficiency Standard and
our net metering rulesencouraging rooftop solar,
you're right.
I mean.
So much of the progress that wehave made as a country on
(31:38):
climate change and clean energystarted starts and ends with the
states, but we really do need.
We need the federal governmentto not hurt us in this regard at
a minimum.
So appreciate you both being onthe podcast.
This has been a fantasticdiscussion.
Attorney General Dana Nes (31:56):
Thank you so much for both being on
and for joining us, and thankyou so much for your hard work
and your dedication,irrespective of what's happening
at the federal government level, we know you guys are both
really dedicated to the statesthat you're serving, so thank
you.
Lisa Wozniak (32:12):
Well, thank both of you, and what an honor to be
on here with all three of you,so let's all keep up the good
work.
Vania Guevara (32:18):
Likewise Inspired by you all.
Thank you so much.
Thank you guys.
Attorney General Kris Ma (32:27):
That's all the time we have.
Thanks again for listening toPantsuits and Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (32:33):
For more insight into the most
pressing legal discussionstaking place right now, be sure
to subscribe and follow us onsocial media.
Attorney General Kris Maye (32:41):
Keep your pantsuits pressed and
ready and we will see you nexttime.
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