March 14, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits, Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes and Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel break down the unprecedented upheaval in the federal workforce. With mass firings sweeping across agencies like the Department of Veterans Affairs, the CDC, and even the nation's nuclear weapons programs, what do these cuts mean for government stability and public safety?
Joining the discussion is Max Rose, Senior Advisor for the VetVoice Foundation and former U.S. Congressman, who shares insight on how these sweeping layoffs are affecting veterans, government efficiency, and national security.
Plus, we examine the legal challenges being mounted against the so-called Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) and what’s at stake for Americans who rely on these essential services.
Credit: This episode includes excerpts from an MSNBC segment, viewable here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Kris May (00:06):
Hello and welcome back to Pantsuits
and Lawsuits.
I'm Arizona Attorney GeneralKris Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:12):
And I'm Michigan Attorney General
Dana Nessel, and we are excitedto have you back for today's
episode as we dive into anotherimportant lately.
about the most pressing legalissues you might have seen in
the news lately.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:30):
On today's docket, we want to talk
about the recent upheaval in thefederal workforce.
President Trump and Elon Muskhave made absolutely no secret
about the fact that they aretaking a sledgehammer to our
federal bureaucracy.
Dr. Ben Andrews (00:49):
I am Dr Ben Andrew.
Andrew Lennox (00:50):
My name is Andrew Lennox.
Jonathan Kamens (00:52):
My name is Jonathan Kamens.
I oversaw cybersecurity for theVA.
gov websites, and about a thirdof USDS, including me, were
fired last week.
Without people like me ensuringthat VA.
gov is secure, the privatefinancial and healthcare data of
Americans' veterans is at riskof being stolen, sold to the
highest bidder and used to harmpeople.
Dr. Ben Andrews (01:09):
I served as the Chief of Safety and Emergency
Management at the PhiladelphiaVA.
This was a mission-criticalrole that ensured the health and
safety of all those who enteredinto our facilities
Andrew Lennox (01:22):
After leaving the military, I wanted to continue
serving my country and I did soas an administrative officer at
the Veterans Affairs MedicalCenter in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
My job was to enable ourmedical providers and that meant
looking at the hundreds ofdoctors and the thousands of
patients' schedules to make surethat nobody walked through
those doors and was not treated.
Make sure we had all thepaperwork and credentialing to
(01:43):
send those veterans home withthe prescription medication they
needed and we didn't waste asingle taxpayer dollar.
Dr. Ben Andrews (01:49):
I chose public service because my mother worked
30 years for the VA MedicalCenter in New Orleans.
As a kid I said one day I'llwork at the VA.
Andrew Lennox (01:58):
If they offered me my job back tomorrow, I would
take it.
Despite all the chaos and risk,the mission is still there and
I'm still ready to be a part ofit.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:09):
Back on January 28th, the Office of
Personnel Management extended adeferred resignation offer to
all federal employees, seeminglywithout consideration for
mission needs or appropriatestaffing levels and threatening
the federal government's abilityto provide necessary essential
services to residents, and mydepartment issued a warning to
(02:32):
read the fine print beforesigning and to be extra cautious
as certain benefits may not beguaranteed.
And ultimately it was estimated, at least by the federal
government, that about 75,000people actually took the offer.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:47):
For those who stayed on, the last
few weeks have been filled withturmoil and confusion, as
questions arise over who stillmay be fired, which programs are
to receive funding cuts andwhat of the executive branch's
recent actions are even legal.
Our most recent lawsuit againstTrump, Musk and the so-called
(03:10):
Department of GovernmentEfficiency, or DOGE, challenges
the Office of Management andBudget's decision to lay off
thousands of probationaryworkers, who are not easily
replaceable.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (03:23):
And , mind you, the probationary
period for federal hiring lastsup to two years, but it also
applies to people who wererecently promoted to a new
position, as well as those whowere freshly hired from outside
the agency.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (03:36):
A staggering lack of transparency
throughout the proceedingsleaves us without complete
numbers yet, but the numbers wedo have are extremely concerning
700 people laid off at the CDC,as many as 350 federal
employees tasked with working onthe nation's nuclear weapons
programs, Over 1,000 employeesat the Department of Veterans
(04:00):
Affairs, including researchersworking on cancer treatment,
opioid addiction, prostheticsand burn pit exposure.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (04:08):
Not to mention the overnight
firings of 17 inspectors general, you know, the lead auditors of
federal agencies who are taskedwith oversight on issues of
spending and waste.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (04:21):
And Trump and DOGE are indicating
that this is just the beginning.
I think it's important to notethat the people who work in
these federal agencies whethermonitoring our water for toxins,
safeguarding our nuclearreactors or staffing the VA they
are public servants.
Their careers often spanseveral administrations and it
(04:45):
doesn't matter who holds theOval Office.
Their work needs to be doneanyway.
Attorney General Dana Ne (04:50):
That's right, and these basic
functions of government areseverely hampered when our
agencies are understaffed andthe employees there are
receiving conflictinginformation out of Washington DC
and, of course, they liveacross the country.
We're hearing about potentiallyhundreds, even thousands of
Michiganders and, I'm sure,Arizonans, who have been
(05:12):
themselves fired.
Attorney General Kris Ma (05:13):
That's right.
Here in Arizona we've heard oftherapists who were fired from
the VA in Phoenix, hotshotfirefighters, firefighter crews
who were let go in Payson rightbefore the fire season, rural
public works officers, GrandCanyon National Park employees
(05:33):
and so many Arizona publicservants losing their jobs.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (05:53):
So here to tell us about what it's
like on the ground for federalemployees, we have Max Rose.
Max is a senior advisor for theVetVoice Foundation as well as
a former congressman for NewYork.
So, Max, welcome to the show.
Max Rose (06:08):
Thanks, AG.
It's wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for having meand for everything you do as
well.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (06:17):
I want to start with a comment
made by a Michigan congresswomanby the name of Lisa McClain,
and here's what she said"Democrats are soliciting sob
stories from bloated bureaucratswith six-figure salaries.
Give me a break.
I don't know about you.
I was very offended by that assomebody who has a great
(06:39):
appreciation for the work thatso many federal employees do,
but I wanted to know what yourthoughts were about that and how
that was received by thefederal workers that you know
and have been with for a longtime.
Max Rose (06:54):
Well, people are really scared and they're really
offended and they're angry.
And there's a whole moralcomponent to all of this where I
think we all align thatgovernment service is a really
virtuous, moral and really hardway to live your life.
(07:15):
But gosh, you know, when youthink about DOGE is doing, it's
also not a recipe for aneffective government by any
sense of the word.
You know, the government istasked with doing some really
complex, really difficult andchallenging things.
You live it each and every day,from issues related to security
(07:35):
, to health, to welfare, toinvestments in our future, at
every level of government.
And I want really talentedpeople there and I want to
compensate them.
I would argue that they're notcompensated nearly enough at
every level of government.
And I want really talentedpeople there and I want to
compensate them.
I would argue that they're notcompensated nearly enough at
every level.
So I don't think anyone canunderstate or overstate excuse
(07:56):
me the level of just fear andpanic at every level of
government.
So you tell me oh, they've onlyfired 1%, that's a number that
they're throwing around a lot.
Well, they've scared the shitout of 99% of them and they've
paralyzed our government Right,and I don't know how we, how we
rescue this.
Attorney General Kris Maye (08:15):
What are you, what are you seeing,
you know, in the veterancommunity, I mean in terms of
the real world impact of thesecuts?
I'm from a state where we havea ton of veterans, heavy
military presence here inArizona, multiple bases, a
number of VA facilities and aton ton of veterans, too, that
(08:39):
have gone on, obviously left theservice and gone on to work for
the federal government in otheragencies providing incredible
service.
So what are you seeing andhearing from people about that?
I mean, it's just veryconcerning to me that veterans
could be disproportionatelyimpacted by these cuts because
they went on to work in federalagencies.
Max Rose (09:04):
Absolutely.
Well, let's just look at thestats 50% of the federal
workforce are veterans, 50% ofthat cohort are disabled
veterans.
And you know, anyone who hasspent one day in the military or
really one day in any form ofpublic service knows that the
people who are in those ranksdidn't just develop a temporary
(09:27):
mindset, right, you're kind ofyou're born with that, or you
develop it and you don't, youcan't just have it for a couple
of years.
It's why many people, when theyleave the military, they choose
to join the reserves and theychoose to continue, or they
choose to continue their servicein the federal government,
doing really difficult and inmany instances, really really
(09:49):
dangerous things, and we're soblessed to have them.
But I also have to say, youknow, I've done a lot of things,
you know, in my life, right,I've served in Congress, I've
worked in business as anentrepreneur and served in the
military.
The most competent, creative,entrepreneurial, intellectual,
(10:10):
ambitious, committed people I'veever worked with were on the
front lines of the United Statesmilitary and the army, to be
specific.
So this is not charity.
When we offer them employment,they are doing us a favor, not
the other way around, becausethey could be making a hell of a
lot more money doing somethingin the private sector.
(10:32):
So these firings, though, havebeen massively arbitrary.
It's not as if DOGE went inthere, these 19-year-old tech
bros, and they're slowly andmeticulously interviewing people
and evaluating where there areefficiencies.
They are going the easy way out, which is they are firing new
employees at a time when ourfederal workforce is also aging
(10:54):
and in desperate need oftechnological advancement, and
they're firing people who areonly in their probationary
status because they just gotpromoted.
Think about how goddamn insanethat is.
We are going to say we're goingto make our government more
lean, mean and efficient byfiring who, by all accounts, are
(11:17):
our best and brightest becausethey just got promoted.
I just stood with a gentlemanwho was fired from CISA, the
cybersecurity arm of theDepartment of Homeland Security.
A veteran.
He had been there for 15 years,promoted, very frequently,
excelled, deployed worldwide toassist our allies and partners
with cybersecurity, but he hadjust been promoted, six months
(11:37):
prior, and they fired himindiscriminately.
Attorney General Dana Ness (11:40):
Yeah , I know that when we're doing
our hiring, we always look forveterans who apply for virtually
any of the types of jobs at ourdepartment, because we know
that they're going to havequalifications that, frankly,
the rest of the workforce won'tnecessarily have.
We know that they're going tohave qualifications that,
frankly, the rest of theworkforce won't necessarily have
, and so that is, of course,that is a boon to our department
(12:01):
.
Anytime we can find somebody whoalso, you know, served.
But one of the first layoffsthat I heard about when DOGE
first started, you know,marauding through federal
government and conducting theseindiscriminate firings was a
woman who worked at the VA herein Detroit, who was a social
worker and, you know,unfortunately as we know, vets
(12:23):
have unfortunatelydisproportionately have either
thought about or have attemptedto take their own lives.
It's a very important function,but this woman had also been
cross-trained in DEI work, andso she was put on leave
virtually immediately and I justthought like the cruelty, the
(12:43):
abject cruelty, to treat ourveterans the way that this
administration has treated them.
It's not a surprise, becauseI've never heard anybody talk
about people who serve ourcountry the way that we've heard
Donald Trump describe ourformer military members.
But that was the very firstperson that I had heard about
(13:05):
and of course the firings justhave continued and I will say
that our federal government andall of the United States would
be so much worse off withoutthese vets serving in our
federal government in a myriadof positions.
Max Rose (13:21):
AG, you're spot on, and you all have been through
campaigns.
It is really easy at times tosay things like that in a
campaign.
Now, though, they are showingus who they really are, which is
someone who spits at vets,someone who doesn't even know a
vet's real value.
Many of the veterans who havejust been fired are post 9/11
(13:45):
vets.
We have this vision of post9/11 global war on terrorism
vets, Iraq, Afghanistan, and wehave engaged in conflict and
certainly high stakescircumstances in plenty of other
countries this century as all22 year olds, but you know, if
you deployed in 2003 as a 23year old sergeant in the initial
(14:06):
invasion of Iraq, you know atthis point, you're closer to
Medicare eligibility than youare to being immediately able to
vote for the first time.
Right, you are to beingimmediately able to vote for the
first time.
Right.
These are folks who are fullyformed adults at the height of
their career, but they alsoexperienced the pinnacle of
complexity in the most highstakes environment humanly
(14:30):
imaginable.
For 20 years, we fought thesewars that were totally nonlinear
, where we asked our servicemembers to both protect civilian
populations, protect the menand women to the left and right
of you, accomplish the mission,defeat the enemy, seize the high
ground.
We've never asked somethinglike this of service members,
and we did it for our nation'slongest war in our history.
(14:54):
These people are supremely warin our history.
These people are supremely,supremely competent and they
have unbelievable resiliency.
These are the folks that getthe job done for America and
they're the last people weshould have ever fired, and I
think it's imperative that wenever let the MAGA movement ever
again say that they stand forvets, because it's not just the
(15:16):
Trump administration doing this.
It's every single Republicanmember of the Senate and
Republican member of Congresswho refuses to stand up to them.
Attorney General Kris Maye (15:27):
Yeah , I think that's a great point,
Max, and it is so heartbreaking.
You know we are seeing thesestories out here in Arizona and
you know, as a formercongressman, I would love to get
your thoughts about what'sgoing on, the process that's
being used.
As you know, Dana and I aresuing the Trump administration
(15:50):
for violating the separation ofpowers, with all of DOGE cuts
and, you know, takeovers offederal agencies.
What goes through your mindwhen you see this happening?
Max Rose (16:04):
Every president has talked about wanting to crack
down on waste, fraud and abuse,and that should be something
that we unite around as acountry.
And I don't even think you knowtimes when everyone talks about
hatchet versus scalpel.
You know that term.
You know there's times when wegot to get a hatchet to some of
this, because there is such athing as bloated government.
(16:24):
But that does not mean that youengage in this reckless,
disruptive, destructive processthat pays no respect whatsoever
to our Constitution.
They are doing far more goodthan otherwise.
And think about it this wayright, congress appropriates
money for the executive todeploy within certain left and
(16:47):
right limits.
They've basically said I don'tcare about any of that, and
they're going to destroy entiredepartments, like USAID, where
funds have been congressionallyappropriated.
So you know this is going tocome to a head in the budget
negotiations coming up, and Ithink it's imperative that
(17:07):
Democrats look Republicans inthe face and say there's no
negotiation where you're goingto get us on your side with a
continuing resolution, becausewhy should we think your side's
going to respect the budget inthe end anyway, even if we pass
it.
So this experiment that we haveas a country is really delicate
(17:29):
.
And it survived only because wehave sworn an oath, each of us,
you, myself not to a king, butto a set of ideas in the
Constitution, to a higher set ofmorals and imperatives.
And this administration doesn'tcare about it at all.
(17:49):
But I'll tell you, theRepublican members of Congress
could stop it.
Yeah, if they put the countryfirst, they really could.
Attorney General Dana Ne (17:57):
What's interesting to me is that you
know the sheer cowardice thatwe're seeing by so many
Republican members, and I wasjust doing a presentation to
some constituents that live inthe seventh Congressional
District of Michigan.
There's a new congressman there.
His name is Tom Barrett.
He is a veteran and he ran onbeing a veteran and yet for all
(18:19):
his bravery and his commercialswhere he's in a Blackhawk
chopper, he can't stand up forhis own constituents against the
president and what we know andI just saw some huge programming
.
He represents the area whereMichigan State University is and
they had enormous cuts becausethey do a lot of food and
agriculture work.
(18:39):
So one single grant for $23million because it was connected
to USAID, and yet total silence.
He will not criticize PresidentTrump in any way, shape or form,
even though he's a guy who wasin combat, you know?
I know.
It's a weird thing being anelected official, because at
(18:59):
times you get in your own headand you start to think that the
only reason why you were thereis to stay there, and it doesn't
matter what you said in thecampaign, because the only
reason you said that in thecampaign was to get there.
And then you got to stay thereand this thing just keeps on
going like a hamster wheel.
I've lost elections and I'vewon them as well.
(19:23):
When you lose an election, thesun does come up the next day.
In fact, your marriage mightimprove, which is a message I
would send their way.
But the truth is is that allyou have in the end are your own
principles and your record ofactually upholding them.
(19:47):
t's are you supposed to lookyour family in the eye?
How are you supposed to lookyour family in the eye?
How are you supposed to lookyour neighbors in the eye?
How are you supposed to lookthe men and women who you served
with in the eye when you tellthem that, yeah, no, I talked a
big song and dance about serviceand country and thumped my
chest about being a badass but,I really just went along to
(20:08):
get along.
That, to me, is not a life ofpublic service worth living.
Go out there and just sellcrypto, man, you'll get a condo
in Miami.
Why are you doing this?
That is the question that weshould be asking each of these
individuals.
Just give up, man.
(20:29):
You got the pin.
I'll tell you.
They still call you congressmanwhen you leave.
Just give up, don't.
Don't.
Don't play this game anymore,because you look like a fool and
you're making a mockery ofservice.
Attorney General Dana Ness (20:41):
Yeah , you stand for something or you
stand for nothing, right?
Max Rose (20:44):
Amen
Attorney General Kris Maye (20:45):
Yeah , and I, you know, I wish that
each of these people would bewilling to look in the face of
the veterans who are beingimpacted by this.
I want to read you a quote fromsomeone.
We had a handful of staff atthe VA hospital in central
Phoenix critical hospitalserving our vets here in Phoenix
.
Quote "it was a punch in thegut, I cried.
(21:08):
It's been hard.
" And we're seeing that all overArizona from incredibly brave
people, people who serve theircountry, who just got fired by
Donald Trump and Elon Musk forabsolutely no reason whatsoever.
And I wish these people wouldhave the guts, both in Congress
but also Elon Musk, to lookthese people in the eye and
(21:31):
explain why they just did thisto them and our country, Max.
Max Rose (21:36):
You know, but I think it's important for us also to
have a conversation not justabout these amazing heroes who
have been fired, but also andthis definitely applies to the
VA the equally amazing heroeswho will now not get the
services they need.
Right, yeah, they just laid off.
You know 2000 or so veteransfrom the VA excuse me, employees
(22:01):
of the VA many of whom areveterans, and they called them
all non-essential.
Now you see healthcare each andevery day.
There's no such thing as anon-essential VA employee.
They all directly impact patientcare, patient quality and
veterans will suffer and will behurt as a consequence of these
(22:22):
decisions that have been made,and I'm not going to project how
bad those consequences will be,but we will find out.
We'll talk about the veteranpopulation.
Let's talk about the way theyrely on the Small Business
Administration to start theirnext chapter.
Let's talk about the way thathomeless veterans rely on all
(22:42):
the grants and services providedby HUD.
This is not just the VA, and wecan talk about a whole
assortment of other groups thatare really deserving and really
rely on these services.
Attorney General Dana Ness (22:58):
Amen .
Well, thank you so much, Max.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast, thank you for your
service and thank you forstanding up so strongly for for
those who have served ourcountry, and who deserve better
than this.
Attorney General Kris Maye (23:14):
Yeah , we appreciate you, Max.
Thanks so much, Mr Congressman.
Max Rose (23:21):
Thank you.
AG AG.
Thank you for your leadershipand for having me on and keep up
the fight, and we're here tosupport you, however we can.
Attorney General Dana Nes (23:31):
We're the only ones that get to be
called general, even though wedon't necessarily have any
military experience at allwhatsoever.
Max Rose (23:38):
So it's pretty cool, that's pretty cool.
Attorney General Kris Ma (23:45):
That's a wrap on this episode of
Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
We'll be back soon with moreincredible guests and
information to protect andinform all of our listeners.
Attorney General Dana Nes (23:55):
Until then, stay informed, stay
engaged and keep fighting thegood fight.
This is Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Hello and welcome back to Pantsuits
and Lawsuits.
I'm Arizona Attorney GeneralKris Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:12):
And I'm Michigan Attorney General
Dana Nessel, and we are excitedto have you back for today's
episode as we dive into anotherimportant lately.
about the most pressing legalissues you might have seen in
the news lately.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:30):
On today's docket, we want to talk
about the recent upheaval in thefederal workforce.
President Trump and Elon Muskhave made absolutely no secret
about the fact that they aretaking a sledgehammer to our
federal bureaucracy.
Dr. Ben Andrews (00:49):
I am Dr Ben Andrew.
Andrew Lennox (00:50):
My name is Andrew Lennox.
Jonathan Kamens (00:52):
My name is Jonathan Kamens.
I oversaw cybersecurity for theVA.
gov websites, and about a thirdof USDS, including me, were
fired last week.
Without people like me ensuringthat VA.
gov is secure, the privatefinancial and healthcare data of
Americans' veterans is at riskof being stolen, sold to the
highest bidder and used to harmpeople.
Dr. Ben Andrews (01:09):
I served as the Chief of Safety and Emergency
Management at the PhiladelphiaVA.
This was a mission-criticalrole that ensured the health and
safety of all those who enteredinto our facilities
Andrew Lennox (01:22):
After leaving the military, I wanted to continue
serving my country and I did soas an administrative officer at
the Veterans Affairs MedicalCenter in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
My job was to enable ourmedical providers and that meant
looking at the hundreds ofdoctors and the thousands of
patients' schedules to make surethat nobody walked through
those doors and was not treated.
Make sure we had all thepaperwork and credentialing to
(01:43):
send those veterans home withthe prescription medication they
needed and we didn't waste asingle taxpayer dollar.
Dr. Ben Andrews (01:49):
I chose public service because my mother worked
30 years for the VA MedicalCenter in New Orleans.
As a kid I said one day I'llwork at the VA.
Andrew Lennox (01:58):
If they offered me my job back tomorrow, I would
take it.
Despite all the chaos and risk,the mission is still there and
I'm still ready to be a part ofit.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:09):
Back on January 28th, the Office of
Personnel Management extended adeferred resignation offer to
all federal employees, seeminglywithout consideration for
mission needs or appropriatestaffing levels and threatening
the federal government's abilityto provide necessary essential
services to residents, and mydepartment issued a warning to
(02:32):
read the fine print beforesigning and to be extra cautious
as certain benefits may not beguaranteed.
And ultimately it was estimated, at least by the federal
government, that about 75,000people actually took the offer.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:47):
For those who stayed on, the last
few weeks have been filled withturmoil and confusion, as
questions arise over who stillmay be fired, which programs are
to receive funding cuts andwhat of the executive branch's
recent actions are even legal.
Our most recent lawsuit againstTrump, Musk and the so-called
(03:10):
Department of GovernmentEfficiency, or DOGE, challenges
the Office of Management andBudget's decision to lay off
thousands of probationaryworkers, who are not easily
replaceable.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (03:23):
And , mind you, the probationary
period for federal hiring lastsup to two years, but it also
applies to people who wererecently promoted to a new
position, as well as those whowere freshly hired from outside
the agency.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (03:36):
A staggering lack of transparency
throughout the proceedingsleaves us without complete
numbers yet, but the numbers wedo have are extremely concerning
700 people laid off at the CDC,as many as 350 federal
employees tasked with working onthe nation's nuclear weapons
programs, Over 1,000 employeesat the Department of Veterans
(04:00):
Affairs, including researchersworking on cancer treatment,
opioid addiction, prostheticsand burn pit exposure.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (04:08):
Not to mention the overnight
firings of 17 inspectors general, you know, the lead auditors of
federal agencies who are taskedwith oversight on issues of
spending and waste.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (04:21):
And Trump and DOGE are indicating
that this is just the beginning.
I think it's important to notethat the people who work in
these federal agencies whethermonitoring our water for toxins,
safeguarding our nuclearreactors or staffing the VA they
are public servants.
Their careers often spanseveral administrations and it
(04:45):
doesn't matter who holds theOval Office.
Their work needs to be doneanyway.
Attorney General Dana Ne (04:50):
That's right, and these basic
functions of government areseverely hampered when our
agencies are understaffed andthe employees there are
receiving conflictinginformation out of Washington DC
and, of course, they liveacross the country.
We're hearing about potentiallyhundreds, even thousands of
Michiganders and, I'm sure,Arizonans, who have been
(05:12):
themselves fired.
Attorney General Kris Ma (05:13):
That's right.
Here in Arizona we've heard oftherapists who were fired from
the VA in Phoenix, hotshotfirefighters, firefighter crews
who were let go in Payson rightbefore the fire season, rural
public works officers, GrandCanyon National Park employees
(05:33):
and so many Arizona publicservants losing their jobs.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (05:53):
So here to tell us about what it's
like on the ground for federalemployees, we have Max Rose.
Max is a senior advisor for theVetVoice Foundation as well as
a former congressman for NewYork.
So, Max, welcome to the show.
Max Rose (06:08):
Thanks, AG.
It's wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for having meand for everything you do as
well.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (06:17):
I want to start with a comment
made by a Michigan congresswomanby the name of Lisa McClain,
and here's what she said"Democrats are soliciting sob
stories from bloated bureaucratswith six-figure salaries.
Give me a break.
I don't know about you.
I was very offended by that assomebody who has a great
(06:39):
appreciation for the work thatso many federal employees do,
but I wanted to know what yourthoughts were about that and how
that was received by thefederal workers that you know
and have been with for a longtime.
Max Rose (06:54):
Well, people are really scared and they're really
offended and they're angry.
And there's a whole moralcomponent to all of this where I
think we all align thatgovernment service is a really
virtuous, moral and really hardway to live your life.
(07:15):
But gosh, you know, when youthink about DOGE is doing, it's
also not a recipe for aneffective government by any
sense of the word.
You know, the government istasked with doing some really
complex, really difficult andchallenging things.
You live it each and every day,from issues related to security
(07:35):
, to health, to welfare, toinvestments in our future, at
every level of government.
And I want really talentedpeople there and I want to
compensate them.
I would argue that they're notcompensated nearly enough at
every level of government.
And I want really talentedpeople there and I want to
compensate them.
I would argue that they're notcompensated nearly enough at
every level.
So I don't think anyone canunderstate or overstate excuse
(07:56):
me the level of just fear andpanic at every level of
government.
So you tell me oh, they've onlyfired 1%, that's a number that
they're throwing around a lot.
Well, they've scared the shitout of 99% of them and they've
paralyzed our government Right,and I don't know how we, how we
rescue this.
Attorney General Kris Maye (08:15):
What are you, what are you seeing,
you know, in the veterancommunity, I mean in terms of
the real world impact of thesecuts?
I'm from a state where we havea ton of veterans, heavy
military presence here inArizona, multiple bases, a
number of VA facilities and aton ton of veterans, too, that
(08:39):
have gone on, obviously left theservice and gone on to work for
the federal government in otheragencies providing incredible
service.
So what are you seeing andhearing from people about that?
I mean, it's just veryconcerning to me that veterans
could be disproportionatelyimpacted by these cuts because
they went on to work in federalagencies.
Max Rose (09:04):
Absolutely.
Well, let's just look at thestats 50% of the federal
workforce are veterans, 50% ofthat cohort are disabled
veterans.
And you know, anyone who hasspent one day in the military or
really one day in any form ofpublic service knows that the
people who are in those ranksdidn't just develop a temporary
(09:27):
mindset, right, you're kind ofyou're born with that, or you
develop it and you don't, youcan't just have it for a couple
of years.
It's why many people, when theyleave the military, they choose
to join the reserves and theychoose to continue, or they
choose to continue their servicein the federal government,
doing really difficult and inmany instances, really really
(09:49):
dangerous things, and we're soblessed to have them.
But I also have to say, youknow, I've done a lot of things,
you know, in my life, right,I've served in Congress, I've
worked in business as anentrepreneur and served in the
military.
The most competent, creative,entrepreneurial, intellectual,
(10:10):
ambitious, committed people I'veever worked with were on the
front lines of the United Statesmilitary and the army, to be
specific.
So this is not charity.
When we offer them employment,they are doing us a favor, not
the other way around, becausethey could be making a hell of a
lot more money doing somethingin the private sector.
(10:32):
So these firings, though, havebeen massively arbitrary.
It's not as if DOGE went inthere, these 19-year-old tech
bros, and they're slowly andmeticulously interviewing people
and evaluating where there areefficiencies.
They are going the easy way out, which is they are firing new
employees at a time when ourfederal workforce is also aging
(10:54):
and in desperate need oftechnological advancement, and
they're firing people who areonly in their probationary
status because they just gotpromoted.
Think about how goddamn insanethat is.
We are going to say we're goingto make our government more
lean, mean and efficient byfiring who, by all accounts, are
(11:17):
our best and brightest becausethey just got promoted.
I just stood with a gentlemanwho was fired from CISA, the
cybersecurity arm of theDepartment of Homeland Security.
A veteran.
He had been there for 15 years,promoted, very frequently,
excelled, deployed worldwide toassist our allies and partners
with cybersecurity, but he hadjust been promoted, six months
(11:37):
prior, and they fired himindiscriminately.
Attorney General Dana Ness (11:40):
Yeah , I know that when we're doing
our hiring, we always look forveterans who apply for virtually
any of the types of jobs at ourdepartment, because we know
that they're going to havequalifications that, frankly,
the rest of the workforce won'tnecessarily have.
We know that they're going tohave qualifications that,
frankly, the rest of theworkforce won't necessarily have
, and so that is, of course,that is a boon to our department
(12:01):
.
Anytime we can find somebody whoalso, you know, served.
But one of the first layoffsthat I heard about when DOGE
first started, you know,marauding through federal
government and conducting theseindiscriminate firings was a
woman who worked at the VA herein Detroit, who was a social
worker and, you know,unfortunately as we know, vets
(12:23):
have unfortunatelydisproportionately have either
thought about or have attemptedto take their own lives.
It's a very important function,but this woman had also been
cross-trained in DEI work, andso she was put on leave
virtually immediately and I justthought like the cruelty, the
(12:43):
abject cruelty, to treat ourveterans the way that this
administration has treated them.
It's not a surprise, becauseI've never heard anybody talk
about people who serve ourcountry the way that we've heard
Donald Trump describe ourformer military members.
But that was the very firstperson that I had heard about
(13:05):
and of course the firings justhave continued and I will say
that our federal government andall of the United States would
be so much worse off withoutthese vets serving in our
federal government in a myriadof positions.
Max Rose (13:21):
AG, you're spot on, and you all have been through
campaigns.
It is really easy at times tosay things like that in a
campaign.
Now, though, they are showingus who they really are, which is
someone who spits at vets,someone who doesn't even know a
vet's real value.
Many of the veterans who havejust been fired are post 9/11
(13:45):
vets.
We have this vision of post9/11 global war on terrorism
vets, Iraq, Afghanistan, and wehave engaged in conflict and
certainly high stakescircumstances in plenty of other
countries this century as all22 year olds, but you know, if
you deployed in 2003 as a 23year old sergeant in the initial
(14:06):
invasion of Iraq, you know atthis point, you're closer to
Medicare eligibility than youare to being immediately able to
vote for the first time.
Right, you are to beingimmediately able to vote for the
first time.
Right.
These are folks who are fullyformed adults at the height of
their career, but they alsoexperienced the pinnacle of
complexity in the most highstakes environment humanly
(14:30):
imaginable.
For 20 years, we fought thesewars that were totally nonlinear
, where we asked our servicemembers to both protect civilian
populations, protect the menand women to the left and right
of you, accomplish the mission,defeat the enemy, seize the high
ground.
We've never asked somethinglike this of service members,
and we did it for our nation'slongest war in our history.
(14:54):
These people are supremely warin our history.
These people are supremely,supremely competent and they
have unbelievable resiliency.
These are the folks that getthe job done for America and
they're the last people weshould have ever fired, and I
think it's imperative that wenever let the MAGA movement ever
again say that they stand forvets, because it's not just the
(15:16):
Trump administration doing this.
It's every single Republicanmember of the Senate and
Republican member of Congresswho refuses to stand up to them.
Attorney General Kris Maye (15:27):
Yeah , I think that's a great point,
Max, and it is so heartbreaking.
You know we are seeing thesestories out here in Arizona and
you know, as a formercongressman, I would love to get
your thoughts about what'sgoing on, the process that's
being used.
As you know, Dana and I aresuing the Trump administration
(15:50):
for violating the separation ofpowers, with all of DOGE cuts
and, you know, takeovers offederal agencies.
What goes through your mindwhen you see this happening?
Max Rose (16:04):
Every president has talked about wanting to crack
down on waste, fraud and abuse,and that should be something
that we unite around as acountry.
And I don't even think you knowtimes when everyone talks about
hatchet versus scalpel.
You know that term.
You know there's times when wegot to get a hatchet to some of
this, because there is such athing as bloated government.
(16:24):
But that does not mean that youengage in this reckless,
disruptive, destructive processthat pays no respect whatsoever
to our Constitution.
They are doing far more goodthan otherwise.
And think about it this wayright, congress appropriates
money for the executive todeploy within certain left and
(16:47):
right limits.
They've basically said I don'tcare about any of that, and
they're going to destroy entiredepartments, like USAID, where
funds have been congressionallyappropriated.
So you know this is going tocome to a head in the budget
negotiations coming up, and Ithink it's imperative that
(17:07):
Democrats look Republicans inthe face and say there's no
negotiation where you're goingto get us on your side with a
continuing resolution, becausewhy should we think your side's
going to respect the budget inthe end anyway, even if we pass
it.
So this experiment that we haveas a country is really delicate
(17:29):
.
And it survived only because wehave sworn an oath, each of us,
you, myself not to a king, butto a set of ideas in the
Constitution, to a higher set ofmorals and imperatives.
And this administration doesn'tcare about it at all.
(17:49):
But I'll tell you, theRepublican members of Congress
could stop it.
Yeah, if they put the countryfirst, they really could.
Attorney General Dana Ne (17:57):
What's interesting to me is that you
know the sheer cowardice thatwe're seeing by so many
Republican members, and I wasjust doing a presentation to
some constituents that live inthe seventh Congressional
District of Michigan.
There's a new congressman there.
His name is Tom Barrett.
He is a veteran and he ran onbeing a veteran and yet for all
(18:19):
his bravery and his commercialswhere he's in a Blackhawk
chopper, he can't stand up forhis own constituents against the
president and what we know andI just saw some huge programming
.
He represents the area whereMichigan State University is and
they had enormous cuts becausethey do a lot of food and
agriculture work.
(18:39):
So one single grant for $23million because it was connected
to USAID, and yet total silence.
He will not criticize PresidentTrump in any way, shape or form,
even though he's a guy who wasin combat, you know?
I know.
It's a weird thing being anelected official, because at
(18:59):
times you get in your own headand you start to think that the
only reason why you were thereis to stay there, and it doesn't
matter what you said in thecampaign, because the only
reason you said that in thecampaign was to get there.
And then you got to stay thereand this thing just keeps on
going like a hamster wheel.
I've lost elections and I'vewon them as well.
(19:23):
When you lose an election, thesun does come up the next day.
In fact, your marriage mightimprove, which is a message I
would send their way.
But the truth is is that allyou have in the end are your own
principles and your record ofactually upholding them.
(19:47):
t's are you supposed to lookyour family in the eye?
How are you supposed to lookyour family in the eye?
How are you supposed to lookyour neighbors in the eye?
How are you supposed to lookthe men and women who you served
with in the eye when you tellthem that, yeah, no, I talked a
big song and dance about serviceand country and thumped my
chest about being a badass but,I really just went along to
(20:08):
get along.
That, to me, is not a life ofpublic service worth living.
Go out there and just sellcrypto, man, you'll get a condo
in Miami.
Why are you doing this?
That is the question that weshould be asking each of these
individuals.
Just give up, man.
(20:29):
You got the pin.
I'll tell you.
They still call you congressmanwhen you leave.
Just give up, don't.
Don't.
Don't play this game anymore,because you look like a fool and
you're making a mockery ofservice.
Attorney General Dana Ness (20:41):
Yeah , you stand for something or you
stand for nothing, right?
Max Rose (20:44):
Amen
Attorney General Kris Maye (20:45):
Yeah , and I, you know, I wish that
each of these people would bewilling to look in the face of
the veterans who are beingimpacted by this.
I want to read you a quote fromsomeone.
We had a handful of staff atthe VA hospital in central
Phoenix critical hospitalserving our vets here in Phoenix
.
Quote "it was a punch in thegut, I cried.
(21:08):
It's been hard.
" And we're seeing that all overArizona from incredibly brave
people, people who serve theircountry, who just got fired by
Donald Trump and Elon Musk forabsolutely no reason whatsoever.
And I wish these people wouldhave the guts, both in Congress
but also Elon Musk, to lookthese people in the eye and
(21:31):
explain why they just did thisto them and our country, Max.
Max Rose (21:36):
You know, but I think it's important for us also to
have a conversation not justabout these amazing heroes who
have been fired, but also andthis definitely applies to the
VA the equally amazing heroeswho will now not get the
services they need.
Right, yeah, they just laid off.
You know 2000 or so veteransfrom the VA excuse me, employees
(22:01):
of the VA many of whom areveterans, and they called them
all non-essential.
Now you see healthcare each andevery day.
There's no such thing as anon-essential VA employee.
They all directly impact patientcare, patient quality and
veterans will suffer and will behurt as a consequence of these
(22:22):
decisions that have been made,and I'm not going to project how
bad those consequences will be,but we will find out.
We'll talk about the veteranpopulation.
Let's talk about the way theyrely on the Small Business
Administration to start theirnext chapter.
Let's talk about the way thathomeless veterans rely on all
(22:42):
the grants and services providedby HUD.
This is not just the VA, and wecan talk about a whole
assortment of other groups thatare really deserving and really
rely on these services.
Attorney General Dana Ness (22:58):
Amen .
Well, thank you so much, Max.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast, thank you for your
service and thank you forstanding up so strongly for for
those who have served ourcountry, and who deserve better
than this.
Attorney General Kris Maye (23:14):
Yeah , we appreciate you, Max.
Thanks so much, Mr Congressman.
Max Rose (23:21):
Thank you.
AG AG.
Thank you for your leadershipand for having me on and keep up
the fight, and we're here tosupport you, however we can.
Attorney General Dana Nes (23:31):
We're the only ones that get to be
called general, even though wedon't necessarily have any
military experience at allwhatsoever.
Max Rose (23:38):
So it's pretty cool, that's pretty cool.
Attorney General Kris Ma (23:45):
That's a wrap on this episode of
Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
We'll be back soon with moreincredible guests and
information to protect andinform all of our listeners.
Attorney General Dana Nes (23:55):
Until then, stay informed, stay
engaged and keep fighting thegood fight.
This is Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
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