November 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Power concentrates in silence, and lately the silence is spreading. We unpack a sweeping pressure campaign against the First Amendment—on campuses, in briefing rooms, on city streets, and across shrinking newsrooms—with an unflinching look at how intimidation, lawsuits, and funding threats are changing the way America speaks and learns.
From protest crackdowns to new restrictive policies at the Pentagon, we trace how best practices are abandoned and dissent turned into a risk calculation. We talk about national outlets that can lawyer up, local stations that can’t, and why even a single settlement can send a chilling message across the entire industry. Veteran reporter Mary Jo Pitzl joins us to explain how newsroom economics, algorithmic incentives, and headline gamesmanship can reshape coverage, nudging editors toward safe choices and audiences toward confusion. Her decades of experience on the beat have made one thing clear: when institutions accept control over who asks questions and what gets printed, the public will never get the answers they deserve.
We also follow the pressure beyond media. Universities juggle academic freedom against the threat of defunding, law firms face retaliation for their clients, and nonprofits fear hosting events that could draw political ire. These choices create a quiet chill—self-censorship that never makes headlines but erodes civic life all the same. We share concrete steps to push back: collective action among schools and firms to spread the legal risk, smarter support for local journalism and public broadcasting, and a recommitment to rigorous reporting over viral bait.
Free speech isn’t self-executing; it survives because people use it. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find it. Then tell us: where are you seeing the chill, and how should we fight it together?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Kris May (00:06):
Hello everybody and welcome to this
latest episode of Pantsuits andLawsuits.
I am Arizona Attorney GeneralChris Mays.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:15):
And I'm Michigan Attorney General
Dana Nessel, and we thank youfor tuning in today.
Attorney General Kri (00:20):
Appreciate y'all joining us again.
We have a really interestingtopic today, and that is the
First Amendment of the UnitedStates Constitution, which is
definitely uh under assaultright now in our country in a
lot of different ways.
And we're gonna talk about itfirst amongst ourselves here,
Adina, and then also with anamazing reporter here in Arizona
(00:43):
who I have known for a longtime, including since I was a
reporter covering politics forthe Phoenix Gazette and the
Arizona Republic.
Attorney General Dana Nes (00:56):
Yeah, and I think um obviously you
bring a unique perspective tothis, not just of course, as an
attorney and an attorneygeneral, but somebody who's a
former journalist.
And I mean, there's there'sjust so much, and I'm just gonna
really quickly uh and we cantalk more about these things
individually, but my God, justcensorship on campus, you know,
(01:17):
students who are being um, youknow, deported based on whatever
their potential viewpoint is,uh, censorship at universities
in general, and you know,withholding funds if you don't
teach the right classes or hirethe right professors, targeting
law firms, uh, and all thatwe've seen in regard to that.
(01:37):
Uh, what the the direct assaulton news agencies like CBS and
ABC and Jimmy Kimmel, and thelist goes on and on.
Uh, I mean, there's atremendous amount of insanity,
is what I will say going on.
And, you know, I mean, I wonderif you could talk about like
(01:59):
this is so 1984 in every shsingle way, shape, and form.
I wonder as as a journalist,like, what is your perspective
on all of this?
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:07):
I mean, it's so it is, it's
incredibly Orwellian.
And um as a journalist, my takeis that any any one of those
things that you just listedwould have been a gigantic
scandal um in uh in any otheradministration, any one of those
(02:27):
things, and you you just listedlike five or six, and you one
you didn't list, I'll add a setseventh or an eighth, which is
um the people who are being theyou know, citizens who are being
attacked by ICE and borderpatrol in the streets of Chicago
and LA and Portland who arejust trying to exercise their
(02:50):
free speech right to protest.
They're being tackled, they'rebeing um maced or uh attacked
with pepper balls.
And reporters.
We've seen we've seen uh atleast one, if not more,
reporters tackled to the ground,uh detained for absolutely no
(03:10):
no reason.
These are the kinds of thingsthat happen in other
authoritarian countries.
I shouldn't say other becauseours basically is is one at this
point.
I mean, that is authoritarian,that is a dictatorship that is
violating the First Amendment ofour constitution.
Attorney General Dana Nes (03:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's beyond, I
mean, obviously, as I said, it'sbeyond anything that we've ever
seen before.
Oh, and we forgot to mention afew other things.
What just happened at thePentagon, uh, where um Pete Heds
Hegzath telling reporters whatthey could or could not report
on and how they could report ornot report, so much so that
(03:49):
nearly every single media outletrefused to sign this pledge uh
to not be real reporters.
Uh, and now you're just notgonna have media coverage of
what's happening at the Pentagonat a time where we need it more
than ever.
Attorney General Kris May (04:04):
Yeah.
I mean, they're blowing upboats and kit literally
murdering people in theCaribbean right now, um, and uh,
you know, engaging in extra jjudicial killings, aka murder,
um, and doing all kinds of weirdthings like trying to
intimidate the officer corps,firing uh admirals and generals,
(04:24):
um, and you know, tellingtelling reporters how they're
supposed to report, what theycan report, uh, who they can
talk to, who they're allowed totalk to.
And, you know, you asked me asa former journalist, like, you
don't do that.
You don't allow no one.
I mean, you you file lawsuitsover things like that, over over
(04:47):
efforts like that to to exertcontrol over the media and to
exert control over um to violateuh the first amendment.
Attorney General Dana Nes (04:57):
Going back to when um they kicked the
AP off the press corps becausethey refused to capitulate in in
you know calling the Gulf uh ofMexico the Gulf of America.
I mean, it was just insane.
Like you can't make this stuffup, except for that it is so
(05:17):
scary.
And when you look now, you'reactually seeing these news
outlets.
I know there's been a lot ofdiscussion about like what's
happened to CBS, right?
And how you are replacing uhwhat are we long-standing uh and
respected media institutionswith, you know, basically state
propaganda, uh just like theyhave in in Russia and they have
(05:42):
in many other countries, whereuh reports reporters are not
allowed to be truly independent.
They're beholden to theadministration and they have to
uh report in a way that isfavorable to the administration.
Attorney General Kris May (05:56):
Yeah.
You know, and it's interestingyou mentioned that because I at
first when all of that washappening, I thought to myself,
okay, this is really bad.
This is um to to, you know, forTrump to be filing lawsuits
against um against major mediaoutlets like ABC, you know, the
Stephanopoulos lawsuit, or um,you know, threatening other
(06:18):
lawsuits.
I thought, okay, yeah, butthey're not gonna capitulate.
They're not gonna, they're notgonna change what they do.
But I don't know about you.
I've started to see and noticeanchors and and reporters
holding back in ways that I I'mfairly certain they wouldn't.
I don't know if that'svoluntary or not.
(06:39):
But these are the kinds ofthings that are actually
happening, and to your point,that's you know, that's like,
you know, uh very, very uh, youknow, Russian um in tone and
nature.
And uh I don't know.
I I don't know where this ends,but it is very, very bad for
(07:00):
our country and for ourdemocracy.
I guess you know it'sinteresting and and and going
back to what you said early on,and you know, that this is so
widespread.
This attack on the FirstAmendment is so widespread in
(07:21):
terms of the number ofinstitutions that are impacted.
And some have been good aboutstanding up to this, right?
You know, some of the law firmshave stood up against it, and I
think they've been rewarded uhby clients for doing that, but
some have not.
And some universities have havestood up against it, and some
(07:42):
have not.
Um, some media outlets havedone a better job of standing up
against it.
You know, I would say the WallStreet Journal and the New York
Times have not capitulated,which I think is interesting.
But can can the weaker outlets,um, especially the more local
outlets, can they stand upagainst it?
Um the Jimmy Kimmel situationthat you mentioned, well, that
(08:06):
took a huge public backlash toback Brendan Carr and the FCC
and Trump off of that, right?
And and the actual uh um uhmedia outlet, right?
So I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't I my question to youwould be w how does how does how
do we how do we stand up tothis?
(08:28):
Because as AGs, we don't we'renot necessarily first in line to
to do that lawsuit or to dothat work, right?
Those are private institutionsor in some cases public
universities.
How do we get through that?
Well, my Dana.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (08:45):
My, you know, what I said to some
of the universities here inMichigan is band together,
right?
We know that it it feels likean impossible situation for them
because they're looking atenormous funding losses.
Yeah, and even if they're gonnawin those cases in court, in
the meantime, while they're notgetting that funding, they're
having to lay off hundreds ofpeople to uh terminate programs
(09:08):
that they've had in placesometimes for decades and
decades, but band together.
And I've said this to you, youknow, we we have a lot of big 10
schools here in Michigan.
Uh, and as you know, um the BigTen is no longer the Big Ten,
it's like the Big 50 orsomething.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:23):
But if they all think together, I
think we we all joined, I think.
Attorney General Dana Nes (09:27):
Yeah, yeah.
We have I don't even I can'teven keep track anymore.
But the thing is, if they ifthey all banded together and
said, you attack one of us, youattack all of us, and we are
each going to fight back andwe're gonna do it collectively,
then you could do somethingabout it, you know, and uh and
and you'd win, you'd besuccessful, but you continue.
This is a this is an ongoingconversation that we've had for
(09:50):
months and months now, is thatthe more that you capitulate,
the more that you engage inappeasement, the more and more
that Trump and hisadministration is gonna try to
get, and it'll never stop.
Uh, and the only way to youknow to defeat a bully is to
stand up to him.
Attorney General Kris May (10:10):
Yeah, there's not gonna be public
outrage rage over everything.
And I noticed um on yoursocials that you were up in the
UP.
Is that what it's called?
The UP talking to theUniversity of Michigan
University up there, NorthernMichigan University, Northern
Michigan, which hosts the PBSstation.
Attorney General Dana Ne (10:29):
That's right, and they are having all
kinds of issues because of thedefunding uh of PBS.
It's really impacting them anda lot of other places as well,
where that's the only place toget, you know, your news.
That's the only place you findout if there's going to be some
um really significant weatherincident and you need to know
about it, you get it from yourlocal PBS station.
(10:52):
And now there are folks thatare just not going to receive
that information at all, evenwhen it's an emergency set of
circumstances.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:59):
And that, I mean, I think that's
something that a lot of folksdon't know, and we probably need
to do a better job.
And good, good on you for goingup and talking about that,
because I assume that's what youwere trying to do.
Um, um, and um, yeah, I noticedyou were wearing a jacket.
Must be good.
Yeah, it's very cold innorthern Michigan.
It is cold.
(11:20):
Well, kind of chilly.
Attorney General Dana Ne (11:21):
That's a whole other conversation
about climate change that wehave.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (11:44):
So we are so excited for the chance
to talk to um a good friend ofmine and somebody that I have uh
frankly idolized for many, manyyears, uh, going back to when I
was a reporter.
Uh her name is Mary Joe Pitzel.
She is um now retired from theArizona Republic, where she was
(12:06):
a reporter and has been areporter, journalist in Arizona
for 40 more than 40 years.
And she's here to talk to us,help us uh through all of these
gnarly issues related right nowto the First Amendment.
Mary Joe, welcome uh to ourpodcast.
Mary Jo Pitzl (12:24):
So I'm coming to you from a hotel room in San
Diego.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:28):
So excellent.
All right, good.
I'm glad you're getting alittle bit of a.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (12:32):
I was gonna say your your uh decor
in your home reminds me alittle bit of uh our holiday
ends.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:38):
So all right, let's jump into a
conversation because we want toget your take, uh uh MJ.
I was telling Dana just asecond ago about, you know, the
ever everything that Trump isdoing to throttle the media and
to violate the First Amendment,it comes on top of changes that
are going on inside the mediaworld.
(13:00):
Um, changes to newspapers,newspapers dying, even
television stations coming underdress.
So can you talk a little bitabout that, you know, and your
experience with that?
Mary Jo Pitzl (13:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's uh it's a really
interesting convergence.
And um, I mean, the media waschanging long before Trump came
along, especially I think, youknow, very widespread distrust
of media, especially mainstreammedia.
You know, it's very it's becomevery common to just dismiss uh
like publications for which Iused to work um as you know uh
(13:38):
fake press, that it's it's notthe fake media, it's not real.
Um so that's been a real a realproblem, and it's been
accelerated, I think, by thecurrent administration.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (13:49):
It just seems to me in watching,
you know, uh the news outletsthat we're already seeing
reporters and anchors hold backand you know, or maybe even say
things that they wouldn'totherwise say and stories that
would have been written aren'tor or done aren't being done.
(14:09):
What do you think?
Am I am I am I stretching thereor do you are you seeing that
too?
Mary Jo Pitzl (14:15):
Oh no, I I don't think you're stretching it.
Um, and I think you see thatmore on the national, you know,
uh platform, you know, thecables, and in certainly the
editorial policies of certain umnationwide newspapers.
I mean, the Washington Postbeing, you know, the most recent
example.
Also, this is coming at a time,as I said, it's a convergence
(14:36):
in mainstream media, a lot ofmedia outlets are losing
subscribers.
Um, they're that they don'thave as much money.
Lawsuits are really expensiveto defend against.
I know that where I used untiljust recently used to work, um,
they weigh very carefully whento step in with litigation
because of the cost.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (14:57):
Is that why the you know the
various different media outletsare so willing to capitulate
when they get sued by theadministration?
Um, it's been shocking to me tosee them paying out uh Donald
Trump for things they did that,again, don't constitute any
actual cause of action.
(15:17):
Uh, and yet they are settlingthese cases as though they, you
know, uh are legally responsibleum for having somehow breached
uh Donald Trump's uh rights.
I mean, it's it's insane to me.
Mary Jo Pitzl (15:34):
Yeah, it's uh it's been very disturbing to see
the um the restrictions.
And I I know like later on youmight want to talk about prior
restraint, but really thebiggest danger there is not
prior restraint from thegovernment, it's media
restraining itself because itfears things like um like uh big
lawsuits that they can't ordon't want to defend against.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:56):
You know, thinking about just you
know, 20, 25 years ago when Iwas a reporter, the idea that
the Arizona Republic or or anyany major news outlet would
capitulate in this way justwould have been unthinkable,
like unthinkable.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (16:19):
Um, you know, I have a question for
you about um the presssecretary, Caroline uh Levy.
Uh her behavior has beenfascinating to me.
Most recently, her exchange, Ibelieve, with a Huffington Post
reporter, uh, where thereporter, I believe, asked,
like, you know, what made youdecide to have this next meeting
(16:40):
with Russia and Ukraine inBudapest, which had a lot of
significance for variousdifferent reasons.
Uh, and then her response was,um, your mom.
In terms of who made thesuggestion.
Uh, that was her actual, like,she, in speaking to a reporter,
it was a very serious question,you know, whose decision was it?
And she said, basically, yourmama.
(17:02):
Maybe I'm misreading thesituation.
It seemed highly unprofessionalto me, but again, I have no
formal training in this area.
Mary Jo Pitzl (17:10):
Well, I mean, I will say that, you know, snark
from presidential uh presssecretaries is um not unheard
of.
Um, it's it's happened beforeand and it happens.
Again, for the journalists, youknow, the um the importance is
how you respond to that.
I mean, you've got to persistwith the question because that
is not that's not an answer andit's disrespectful.
(17:31):
Um, but you've got to sort ofsoldier on and and hopefully we
get back to Levit, you know, andpress her for a more uh more
coherent answer.
But I mean, I don't know, youknow, snarky press secretaries
um, you know, are on the rise.
And I think again, what we seeon the national level, a lot of
that's empowered by thepermission structure from from
(17:54):
the Trump administration.
You know, the the media is theenemy.
Attorney General Kris May (17:58):
Yeah, and I think also, you know,
there for Carolyn Levitt or PamBondy when she was testifying,
if you want to call it that, infront of the Judiciary
Committee, their audience is anaudience of one, right?
I mean, it's Donald Trumpsitting in the in the Oval
Office.
When I see the media, mediathat they now have credentialed,
(18:19):
uh, and they are and that theybasically now almost exclusively
take questions from, it's likethese I don't know where these
people came from.
They're all right-wing media,they're not actual real uh media
outlets.
And then maybe they'll let ABCNews or some, you know, actual
journalist, professionaljournalists ask one question.
(18:41):
I mean, is that what is that?
And what what is the impact ofthat?
Attorney General Dana Nes (18:45):
Yeah.
And I will say, even during theexchange, you'll see it's not
just Carolyn Levitt, but it isalso the president when he's
talking to reporters, where hejust openly insults the reporter
uh during the course of what isoftentimes a very valid,
legitimate question.
Mary Jo Pitzl (19:00):
Yeah, well, media, again, media gets beat up
a lot of times.
I mean, and you know, we can wecan be irritating.
Um, you know, we our job is toask ask questions, uh, sometimes
inconvenient questions, and tobe persistent.
But yeah, it again, this seemslike, you know, a new level.
Um, I think the bigger concernis like we saw with the
Pentagon, you know, I think thePentagon said that after they
(19:23):
issued this new policy that, youknow, you can work in the
building if you sign thisstatement that you'll basically
only write about our pressreleases, it's ushered in a
whole new era of journalists.
And they are they are all youknow from the right wing.
I I don't know if I can thinkof any of them, any names of of
these media outlets.
Again, this all goes with, youknow, we want to get our message
(19:46):
out, you know, from theadministration, and we don't
want contrary questions.
Um, and I uh you know, pray toGod that that does not happen
with the White House briefingroom.
It's important to have you knowthose voices in there, um, even
if it's you know, even ifyou're gonna get a response
that's um insulting, um, even ifyou don't get called on, you
(20:06):
know, you can at least be thereto you know shout out the
questions and and raise a ruckusif if necessary.
But um that actually sort ofserves the administration's um
ends if you raise too much of aruckus.
Um there is a certain amount ofdecorum that that needs to be
kept.
But it it it limits again, itit underscores the importance to
(20:27):
have you got to work thingsfrom the outside.
A long time an editor told me,you know, you can work a story
two ways.
You can go, you can work fromthe inside and get to know all
the insiders, or you can work itfrom the outside.
And sometimes coming in fromthe outside um is the best way
to go.
Attorney General K (20:43):
Interesting.
I'm I'm curious um what yourthoughts are on independent
media.
I mean, is that and and onsocial media sort of YouTube um
uh uh shows and influencers?
(21:04):
You know, that seems to be andthe balkanization of media,
which really is putting pressurein its own way on mainstream
media or or large media outlets.
But can can you just can youjust tell our viewers a little
bit about that?
The the change in journalism interms of what you have to do.
(21:25):
The fact that, I mean, youknow, now you're doing podcasts,
you're doing video, you'redoing you're not just writing
stories anymore.
You're literally being asked todo everything.
Mary Jo Pitzl (21:36):
Yes, yeah, it really changed from when I came
in as a baby reporter.
My job was to, you know, writea story.
I did I did write on acomputer, uh, typewriters were
passe by then.
Um, and you wrote the story.
You went out and reported andwrote a story.
Editors edited it and putheadlines on it.
Well, over the years that thatchanged.
You know, we had to writestories, then we would have to
(21:58):
do stand-ups on TV, um, and thenwe would have to do blogs and
then start taking your ownpictures.
That's where iPhones really youknow came in handy and led to a
reduction of professionalphotographers in news outlets.
I don't know where this is allgonna land, but I do think the
balkanization will continue.
And we have a proliferation ofplatforms, you know, with audio
(22:20):
and video and substack, and youknow, we still print the news on
paper and drop in people'sdriveways.
Um, that still happenssometimes, um, and digital.
So uh there's so many places togo to get news that it really
takes some work and somediscernment to figure out where
you're getting you know the realdeal.
(22:41):
Like, you know, if you'regetting all your news off of
Twitter um, you know, or X,sorry, um, you know, it it's a
sad day.
And likewise, if you're gettingall your news off of Blue Sky,
I mean, sometimes reading,sitting down and reading
something that goes for morethan like two paragraphs is
really helpful to be an informedcitizen.
Attorney General Dana Ness (23:01):
Mary Joe, one of the things that
kind of has interested methough, as we've seen this
shift, is that, you know, evenfor a well-respected journalist,
it seems as though the storyhas to be written in a way that
uh has clickbait attached to it.
Like it has to have somethingkind of spicy or juicy that gets
a person to click on it andread the article in the first
(23:22):
place, which I think does a realdisservice actually to the work
of that journalist, becauseoftentimes it's sort of a
misrepresentation of what you'regonna end up reading about
later, which might be more dryor boring, but it is factually
accurate.
And then a lot of times peopleonly read that headline, and
then that's what they come awaywith.
They don't actually read thestory.
Mary Jo Pitzl (23:45):
Yeah, this is called search engine
optimization or SEO, as I'm sureeverybody's heard about.
And it really does hinge on theheadlines.
Um, I um you want to have thesexiest headline, which often,
if not sexy, a headline thatasks a question.
So you leave something sort ofhanging so that people want to
(24:05):
click to find out, well, what'sthe answer?
You know, you don't the oldschool journalism used to be
that you would write the mostimportant facts at the top of
your story, the the invertedpyramid.
Inverted it's really almostinverted the other direction.
Um, you want to put thetantalizer at the top and then
(24:25):
draw people in so you know, sothat they will engage with the
story.
But yeah, there's all kinds ofmetrics, and you know, Google
drives a lot of how stories arestructured.
Um, but the headlines are thereal, are the ones that really
get a lot of the focus and theemphasis.
And sometimes they don't evenreally match the story well.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (24:45):
You know, I think I'd be really
good at this.
Like what I would do is thisI'd be like, was attorney gener,
did attorney general Chris Mayswork as a stripper?
Question mark, and then in thestory be like, no, but you did
just file this lawsuit uhregarding you know food
assistance, and then like theboard and stuff about the
lawsuit.
So it it would be ittechnically, it would be an
(25:08):
accurate story because and Iwould be answering that
questions, but you know, wouldpeople click on that?
Yeah, I'd click on that, sure.
Mary Jo Pitzl (25:15):
Well, click you could use that as a headline on
your own press releases, Chris.
Attorney General Kris Ma (25:19):
That's true, I guess.
If that's what it takes to getpeople to read about, you know,
our Snap uh benefit lawsuit.
But anyway, that's the thing.
Mary Jo Pitzl (25:27):
You don't want to get to that level.
And because believe it or not,there's a segment of readers
that would be that are reallyturned off by you know all these
plays, you know, to to get yourcurio to make you curious and
make you click.
Sometimes I try to avoid theclickbait when I'm reading, even
though I'm curious.
Um, I sort of want to know, butI'm like, maybe I should just
(25:48):
not, I don't want to feed thebeast by by doing that.
It it really it really distortspeople's perceptions of what's
going on.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (26:04):
I don't know what you're doing
next, Mary Joe.
You haven't, I don't thinkyou've revealed that to the
world yet, but I'm sure you'llyou'll end up somewhere where
you're uh hopefully where you'renot gonna have to do as much
clickbait, but um just the greatjournalism you do.
Before we let you go though, Iwould just be curious.
We were talking, Dana and Iwere talking in the lead up to
this uh segment about some ofthe other examples of first
(26:28):
violations of the FirstAmendment that are happening
under this administration,including you know, uh the
threats to our universities, thethreats to, you know, the
deportations of students basedon what what how they're
protesting or what their viewsare, the um the threats to law
firms if they don't capitulateand they don't uh you know,
(26:51):
based on and the based on thecases they've taken in the past,
all kinds of what what are youmost worried about outside of
the just a direct impact to tomedia?
What what worries you the mostin terms of all that?
Mary Jo Pitzl (27:07):
That this won't be stopped.
Where does this end?
You know, does this end or doesthis evolve into people just
buttoning up and not sayingthings, you know, um, you know,
uh censoring themselves ormuting themselves, which is
very, very, very concerning.
Um, because the ability tospeak um is enshrined in the
(27:30):
first just speak your mind.
Um, it's speech is protected bythe constitution.
That's a bigger concern, isthat people will just sort of um
lose their voice.
Attorney General Dana Ness (27:41):
Just uh just today, um, you know, in
furtherance of this lawsuitthat we've referenced a few
times now involving SNAPbenefits that um many of the
Democratic AGs are involved in,we were looking to do a press
conference at uh a food bankbecause we also wanted to, you
know, to get their perspectiveand what they're saying and what
their concerns and fears are.
(28:03):
And we found that many foodbanks did not want to host this
press conference, even thoughthis is this is an utter, you
know, tragedy for them on anepic scale in terms of the
number of people who are goingto go without food.
And that's their whole job.
Like they're there to servehungry people who can't afford
(28:23):
uh to eat um another way uh andobtain their food from another
uh you know from other sources.
And and that that that to metells you everything, right?
Mary Jo Pitzl (28:34):
That's the sort of self-censorship that happens.
And that's if that becomespervasive, you know, it it's
that's very, very scary becausethen the control is all with, in
this case, the government.
Um, and that is not healthy forour our society.
I mean, and really where allthis is leading, you know,
(28:54):
ultimately is uh the courts.
Um I mean it's in the courts,but it's all getting up to the
Supreme Court, and that's thebig, that's the big, big
question mark that I think umeverybody's waiting to see
what's gonna happen.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (29:07):
I was gonna say, in the words of
United States House ofRepresentatives speaker Michael
Johnson, bring it, sister.
Mary Jo Pitzl (29:16):
You said that about me, Mary Joe, but yeah,
yeah, on the Grahalva case.
Yeah, Grahalva.
Attorney General Kris May (29:23):
Yeah, we appreciate you joining us on
pantsuits and lawsuits toexplain to us and and to
everybody um how how journalismis working today and how we can
get through this together.
So thank you so much for beingon with us.
It's great to see you again.
Mary Jo Pitzl (29:39):
Yeah, it's great to speak with both of you.
Attorney General Kris Ma (29:42):
Thanks so much.
Thanks, everybody.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (29:59):
Uh and until now.
Next time, follow us on allyour social media platforms for
daily updates about the excitingwork of our departments.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:07):
And continue to speak out about the
injustices that you'rewitnessing out there.
We need you, we need everyoneto continue exercising their
your First Amendment uh rightsin America.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (30:22):
And be rest assured uh that uh your
attorneys general, or at leastthe democratic ones, are
fighting as hard as we can toprotect our way of life,
hopefully for generations tocome.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:35):
See y'all next time.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:47):
By the way, I was on I was on this
program and they uhspecifically played the Mike
Johnson portion of him talkingabout you.
And I was like, what a badge ofhonor for A.
G Mays to have Mike Johnsontrash talking you the way he
did.
And I just I thought he said,bring it, sister.
(31:10):
Yeah, and I was like, oh, it'sgonna be brought.
You can bet, A.G.
May.
Like, I would have done, Imean, I would have died for that
because it was just hilarious.
So good for you.
Attorney General Kris Ma (31:21):
Nobody asked me about it in the media.
I was like, I was ready with myretort.
I was gonna say, okay, broughtit, brother.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (31:29):
Oh my god, you should have.
It was hilarious.
All right.
Hello everybody and welcome to this
latest episode of Pantsuits andLawsuits.
I am Arizona Attorney GeneralChris Mays.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:15):
And I'm Michigan Attorney General
Dana Nessel, and we thank youfor tuning in today.
Attorney General Kri (00:20):
Appreciate y'all joining us again.
We have a really interestingtopic today, and that is the
First Amendment of the UnitedStates Constitution, which is
definitely uh under assaultright now in our country in a
lot of different ways.
And we're gonna talk about itfirst amongst ourselves here,
Adina, and then also with anamazing reporter here in Arizona
(00:43):
who I have known for a longtime, including since I was a
reporter covering politics forthe Phoenix Gazette and the
Arizona Republic.
Attorney General Dana Nes (00:56):
Yeah, and I think um obviously you
bring a unique perspective tothis, not just of course, as an
attorney and an attorneygeneral, but somebody who's a
former journalist.
And I mean, there's there'sjust so much, and I'm just gonna
really quickly uh and we cantalk more about these things
individually, but my God, justcensorship on campus, you know,
(01:17):
students who are being um, youknow, deported based on whatever
their potential viewpoint is,uh, censorship at universities
in general, and you know,withholding funds if you don't
teach the right classes or hirethe right professors, targeting
law firms, uh, and all thatwe've seen in regard to that.
(01:37):
Uh, what the the direct assaulton news agencies like CBS and
ABC and Jimmy Kimmel, and thelist goes on and on.
Uh, I mean, there's atremendous amount of insanity,
is what I will say going on.
And, you know, I mean, I wonderif you could talk about like
(01:59):
this is so 1984 in every shsingle way, shape, and form.
I wonder as as a journalist,like, what is your perspective
on all of this?
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:07):
I mean, it's so it is, it's
incredibly Orwellian.
And um as a journalist, my takeis that any any one of those
things that you just listedwould have been a gigantic
scandal um in uh in any otheradministration, any one of those
(02:27):
things, and you you just listedlike five or six, and you one
you didn't list, I'll add a setseventh or an eighth, which is
um the people who are being theyou know, citizens who are being
attacked by ICE and borderpatrol in the streets of Chicago
and LA and Portland who arejust trying to exercise their
(02:50):
free speech right to protest.
They're being tackled, they'rebeing um maced or uh attacked
with pepper balls.
And reporters.
We've seen we've seen uh atleast one, if not more,
reporters tackled to the ground,uh detained for absolutely no
(03:10):
no reason.
These are the kinds of thingsthat happen in other
authoritarian countries.
I shouldn't say other becauseours basically is is one at this
point.
I mean, that is authoritarian,that is a dictatorship that is
violating the First Amendment ofour constitution.
Attorney General Dana Nes (03:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's beyond, I
mean, obviously, as I said, it'sbeyond anything that we've ever
seen before.
Oh, and we forgot to mention afew other things.
What just happened at thePentagon, uh, where um Pete Heds
Hegzath telling reporters whatthey could or could not report
on and how they could report ornot report, so much so that
(03:49):
nearly every single media outletrefused to sign this pledge uh
to not be real reporters.
Uh, and now you're just notgonna have media coverage of
what's happening at the Pentagonat a time where we need it more
than ever.
Attorney General Kris May (04:04):
Yeah.
I mean, they're blowing upboats and kit literally
murdering people in theCaribbean right now, um, and uh,
you know, engaging in extra jjudicial killings, aka murder,
um, and doing all kinds of weirdthings like trying to
intimidate the officer corps,firing uh admirals and generals,
(04:24):
um, and you know, tellingtelling reporters how they're
supposed to report, what theycan report, uh, who they can
talk to, who they're allowed totalk to.
And, you know, you asked me asa former journalist, like, you
don't do that.
You don't allow no one.
I mean, you you file lawsuitsover things like that, over over
(04:47):
efforts like that to to exertcontrol over the media and to
exert control over um to violateuh the first amendment.
Attorney General Dana Nes (04:57):
Going back to when um they kicked the
AP off the press corps becausethey refused to capitulate in in
you know calling the Gulf uh ofMexico the Gulf of America.
I mean, it was just insane.
Like you can't make this stuffup, except for that it is so
(05:17):
scary.
And when you look now, you'reactually seeing these news
outlets.
I know there's been a lot ofdiscussion about like what's
happened to CBS, right?
And how you are replacing uhwhat are we long-standing uh and
respected media institutionswith, you know, basically state
propaganda, uh just like theyhave in in Russia and they have
(05:42):
in many other countries, whereuh reports reporters are not
allowed to be truly independent.
They're beholden to theadministration and they have to
uh report in a way that isfavorable to the administration.
Attorney General Kris May (05:56):
Yeah.
You know, and it's interestingyou mentioned that because I at
first when all of that washappening, I thought to myself,
okay, this is really bad.
This is um to to, you know, forTrump to be filing lawsuits
against um against major mediaoutlets like ABC, you know, the
Stephanopoulos lawsuit, or um,you know, threatening other
(06:18):
lawsuits.
I thought, okay, yeah, butthey're not gonna capitulate.
They're not gonna, they're notgonna change what they do.
But I don't know about you.
I've started to see and noticeanchors and and reporters
holding back in ways that I I'mfairly certain they wouldn't.
I don't know if that'svoluntary or not.
(06:39):
But these are the kinds ofthings that are actually
happening, and to your point,that's you know, that's like,
you know, uh very, very uh, youknow, Russian um in tone and
nature.
And uh I don't know.
I I don't know where this ends,but it is very, very bad for
(07:00):
our country and for ourdemocracy.
I guess you know it'sinteresting and and and going
back to what you said early on,and you know, that this is so
widespread.
This attack on the FirstAmendment is so widespread in
(07:21):
terms of the number ofinstitutions that are impacted.
And some have been good aboutstanding up to this, right?
You know, some of the law firmshave stood up against it, and I
think they've been rewarded uhby clients for doing that, but
some have not.
And some universities have havestood up against it, and some
(07:42):
have not.
Um, some media outlets havedone a better job of standing up
against it.
You know, I would say the WallStreet Journal and the New York
Times have not capitulated,which I think is interesting.
But can can the weaker outlets,um, especially the more local
outlets, can they stand upagainst it?
Um the Jimmy Kimmel situationthat you mentioned, well, that
(08:06):
took a huge public backlash toback Brendan Carr and the FCC
and Trump off of that, right?
And and the actual uh um uhmedia outlet, right?
So I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't I my question to youwould be w how does how does how
do we how do we stand up tothis?
(08:28):
Because as AGs, we don't we'renot necessarily first in line to
to do that lawsuit or to dothat work, right?
Those are private institutionsor in some cases public
universities.
How do we get through that?
Well, my Dana.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (08:45):
My, you know, what I said to some
of the universities here inMichigan is band together,
right?
We know that it it feels likean impossible situation for them
because they're looking atenormous funding losses.
Yeah, and even if they're gonnawin those cases in court, in
the meantime, while they're notgetting that funding, they're
having to lay off hundreds ofpeople to uh terminate programs
(09:08):
that they've had in placesometimes for decades and
decades, but band together.
And I've said this to you, youknow, we we have a lot of big 10
schools here in Michigan.
Uh, and as you know, um the BigTen is no longer the Big Ten,
it's like the Big 50 orsomething.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:23):
But if they all think together, I
think we we all joined, I think.
Attorney General Dana Nes (09:27):
Yeah, yeah.
We have I don't even I can'teven keep track anymore.
But the thing is, if they ifthey all banded together and
said, you attack one of us, youattack all of us, and we are
each going to fight back andwe're gonna do it collectively,
then you could do somethingabout it, you know, and uh and
and you'd win, you'd besuccessful, but you continue.
This is a this is an ongoingconversation that we've had for
(09:50):
months and months now, is thatthe more that you capitulate,
the more that you engage inappeasement, the more and more
that Trump and hisadministration is gonna try to
get, and it'll never stop.
Uh, and the only way to youknow to defeat a bully is to
stand up to him.
Attorney General Kris May (10:10):
Yeah, there's not gonna be public
outrage rage over everything.
And I noticed um on yoursocials that you were up in the
UP.
Is that what it's called?
The UP talking to theUniversity of Michigan
University up there, NorthernMichigan University, Northern
Michigan, which hosts the PBSstation.
Attorney General Dana Ne (10:29):
That's right, and they are having all
kinds of issues because of thedefunding uh of PBS.
It's really impacting them anda lot of other places as well,
where that's the only place toget, you know, your news.
That's the only place you findout if there's going to be some
um really significant weatherincident and you need to know
about it, you get it from yourlocal PBS station.
(10:52):
And now there are folks thatare just not going to receive
that information at all, evenwhen it's an emergency set of
circumstances.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:59):
And that, I mean, I think that's
something that a lot of folksdon't know, and we probably need
to do a better job.
And good, good on you for goingup and talking about that,
because I assume that's what youwere trying to do.
Um, um, and um, yeah, I noticedyou were wearing a jacket.
Must be good.
Yeah, it's very cold innorthern Michigan.
It is cold.
(11:20):
Well, kind of chilly.
Attorney General Dana Ne (11:21):
That's a whole other conversation
about climate change that wehave.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (11:44):
So we are so excited for the chance
to talk to um a good friend ofmine and somebody that I have uh
frankly idolized for many, manyyears, uh, going back to when I
was a reporter.
Uh her name is Mary Joe Pitzel.
She is um now retired from theArizona Republic, where she was
(12:06):
a reporter and has been areporter, journalist in Arizona
for 40 more than 40 years.
And she's here to talk to us,help us uh through all of these
gnarly issues related right nowto the First Amendment.
Mary Joe, welcome uh to ourpodcast.
Mary Jo Pitzl (12:24):
So I'm coming to you from a hotel room in San
Diego.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:28):
So excellent.
All right, good.
I'm glad you're getting alittle bit of a.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (12:32):
I was gonna say your your uh decor
in your home reminds me alittle bit of uh our holiday
ends.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:38):
So all right, let's jump into a
conversation because we want toget your take, uh uh MJ.
I was telling Dana just asecond ago about, you know, the
ever everything that Trump isdoing to throttle the media and
to violate the First Amendment,it comes on top of changes that
are going on inside the mediaworld.
(13:00):
Um, changes to newspapers,newspapers dying, even
television stations coming underdress.
So can you talk a little bitabout that, you know, and your
experience with that?
Mary Jo Pitzl (13:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's uh it's a really
interesting convergence.
And um, I mean, the media waschanging long before Trump came
along, especially I think, youknow, very widespread distrust
of media, especially mainstreammedia.
You know, it's very it's becomevery common to just dismiss uh
like publications for which Iused to work um as you know uh
(13:38):
fake press, that it's it's notthe fake media, it's not real.
Um so that's been a real a realproblem, and it's been
accelerated, I think, by thecurrent administration.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (13:49):
It just seems to me in watching,
you know, uh the news outletsthat we're already seeing
reporters and anchors hold backand you know, or maybe even say
things that they wouldn'totherwise say and stories that
would have been written aren'tor or done aren't being done.
(14:09):
What do you think?
Am I am I am I stretching thereor do you are you seeing that
too?
Mary Jo Pitzl (14:15):
Oh no, I I don't think you're stretching it.
Um, and I think you see thatmore on the national, you know,
uh platform, you know, thecables, and in certainly the
editorial policies of certain umnationwide newspapers.
I mean, the Washington Postbeing, you know, the most recent
example.
Also, this is coming at a time,as I said, it's a convergence
(14:36):
in mainstream media, a lot ofmedia outlets are losing
subscribers.
Um, they're that they don'thave as much money.
Lawsuits are really expensiveto defend against.
I know that where I used untiljust recently used to work, um,
they weigh very carefully whento step in with litigation
because of the cost.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (14:57):
Is that why the you know the
various different media outletsare so willing to capitulate
when they get sued by theadministration?
Um, it's been shocking to me tosee them paying out uh Donald
Trump for things they did that,again, don't constitute any
actual cause of action.
(15:17):
Uh, and yet they are settlingthese cases as though they, you
know, uh are legally responsibleum for having somehow breached
uh Donald Trump's uh rights.
I mean, it's it's insane to me.
Mary Jo Pitzl (15:34):
Yeah, it's uh it's been very disturbing to see
the um the restrictions.
And I I know like later on youmight want to talk about prior
restraint, but really thebiggest danger there is not
prior restraint from thegovernment, it's media
restraining itself because itfears things like um like uh big
lawsuits that they can't ordon't want to defend against.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:56):
You know, thinking about just you
know, 20, 25 years ago when Iwas a reporter, the idea that
the Arizona Republic or or anyany major news outlet would
capitulate in this way justwould have been unthinkable,
like unthinkable.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (16:19):
Um, you know, I have a question for
you about um the presssecretary, Caroline uh Levy.
Uh her behavior has beenfascinating to me.
Most recently, her exchange, Ibelieve, with a Huffington Post
reporter, uh, where thereporter, I believe, asked,
like, you know, what made youdecide to have this next meeting
(16:40):
with Russia and Ukraine inBudapest, which had a lot of
significance for variousdifferent reasons.
Uh, and then her response was,um, your mom.
In terms of who made thesuggestion.
Uh, that was her actual, like,she, in speaking to a reporter,
it was a very serious question,you know, whose decision was it?
And she said, basically, yourmama.
(17:02):
Maybe I'm misreading thesituation.
It seemed highly unprofessionalto me, but again, I have no
formal training in this area.
Mary Jo Pitzl (17:10):
Well, I mean, I will say that, you know, snark
from presidential uh presssecretaries is um not unheard
of.
Um, it's it's happened beforeand and it happens.
Again, for the journalists, youknow, the um the importance is
how you respond to that.
I mean, you've got to persistwith the question because that
is not that's not an answer andit's disrespectful.
(17:31):
Um, but you've got to sort ofsoldier on and and hopefully we
get back to Levit, you know, andpress her for a more uh more
coherent answer.
But I mean, I don't know, youknow, snarky press secretaries
um, you know, are on the rise.
And I think again, what we seeon the national level, a lot of
that's empowered by thepermission structure from from
(17:54):
the Trump administration.
You know, the the media is theenemy.
Attorney General Kris May (17:58):
Yeah, and I think also, you know,
there for Carolyn Levitt or PamBondy when she was testifying,
if you want to call it that, infront of the Judiciary
Committee, their audience is anaudience of one, right?
I mean, it's Donald Trumpsitting in the in the Oval
Office.
When I see the media, mediathat they now have credentialed,
(18:19):
uh, and they are and that theybasically now almost exclusively
take questions from, it's likethese I don't know where these
people came from.
They're all right-wing media,they're not actual real uh media
outlets.
And then maybe they'll let ABCNews or some, you know, actual
journalist, professionaljournalists ask one question.
(18:41):
I mean, is that what is that?
And what what is the impact ofthat?
Attorney General Dana Nes (18:45):
Yeah.
And I will say, even during theexchange, you'll see it's not
just Carolyn Levitt, but it isalso the president when he's
talking to reporters, where hejust openly insults the reporter
uh during the course of what isoftentimes a very valid,
legitimate question.
Mary Jo Pitzl (19:00):
Yeah, well, media, again, media gets beat up
a lot of times.
I mean, and you know, we can wecan be irritating.
Um, you know, we our job is toask ask questions, uh, sometimes
inconvenient questions, and tobe persistent.
But yeah, it again, this seemslike, you know, a new level.
Um, I think the bigger concernis like we saw with the
Pentagon, you know, I think thePentagon said that after they
(19:23):
issued this new policy that, youknow, you can work in the
building if you sign thisstatement that you'll basically
only write about our pressreleases, it's ushered in a
whole new era of journalists.
And they are they are all youknow from the right wing.
I I don't know if I can thinkof any of them, any names of of
these media outlets.
Again, this all goes with, youknow, we want to get our message
(19:46):
out, you know, from theadministration, and we don't
want contrary questions.
Um, and I uh you know, pray toGod that that does not happen
with the White House briefingroom.
It's important to have you knowthose voices in there, um, even
if it's you know, even ifyou're gonna get a response
that's um insulting, um, even ifyou don't get called on, you
(20:06):
know, you can at least be thereto you know shout out the
questions and and raise a ruckusif if necessary.
But um that actually sort ofserves the administration's um
ends if you raise too much of aruckus.
Um there is a certain amount ofdecorum that that needs to be
kept.
But it it it limits again, itit underscores the importance to
(20:27):
have you got to work thingsfrom the outside.
A long time an editor told me,you know, you can work a story
two ways.
You can go, you can work fromthe inside and get to know all
the insiders, or you can work itfrom the outside.
And sometimes coming in fromthe outside um is the best way
to go.
Attorney General K (20:43):
Interesting.
I'm I'm curious um what yourthoughts are on independent
media.
I mean, is that and and onsocial media sort of YouTube um
uh uh shows and influencers?
(21:04):
You know, that seems to be andthe balkanization of media,
which really is putting pressurein its own way on mainstream
media or or large media outlets.
But can can you just can youjust tell our viewers a little
bit about that?
The the change in journalism interms of what you have to do.
(21:25):
The fact that, I mean, youknow, now you're doing podcasts,
you're doing video, you'redoing you're not just writing
stories anymore.
You're literally being asked todo everything.
Mary Jo Pitzl (21:36):
Yes, yeah, it really changed from when I came
in as a baby reporter.
My job was to, you know, writea story.
I did I did write on acomputer, uh, typewriters were
passe by then.
Um, and you wrote the story.
You went out and reported andwrote a story.
Editors edited it and putheadlines on it.
Well, over the years that thatchanged.
You know, we had to writestories, then we would have to
(21:58):
do stand-ups on TV, um, and thenwe would have to do blogs and
then start taking your ownpictures.
That's where iPhones really youknow came in handy and led to a
reduction of professionalphotographers in news outlets.
I don't know where this is allgonna land, but I do think the
balkanization will continue.
And we have a proliferation ofplatforms, you know, with audio
(22:20):
and video and substack, and youknow, we still print the news on
paper and drop in people'sdriveways.
Um, that still happenssometimes, um, and digital.
So uh there's so many places togo to get news that it really
takes some work and somediscernment to figure out where
you're getting you know the realdeal.
(22:41):
Like, you know, if you'regetting all your news off of
Twitter um, you know, or X,sorry, um, you know, it it's a
sad day.
And likewise, if you're gettingall your news off of Blue Sky,
I mean, sometimes reading,sitting down and reading
something that goes for morethan like two paragraphs is
really helpful to be an informedcitizen.
Attorney General Dana Ness (23:01):
Mary Joe, one of the things that
kind of has interested methough, as we've seen this
shift, is that, you know, evenfor a well-respected journalist,
it seems as though the storyhas to be written in a way that
uh has clickbait attached to it.
Like it has to have somethingkind of spicy or juicy that gets
a person to click on it andread the article in the first
(23:22):
place, which I think does a realdisservice actually to the work
of that journalist, becauseoftentimes it's sort of a
misrepresentation of what you'regonna end up reading about
later, which might be more dryor boring, but it is factually
accurate.
And then a lot of times peopleonly read that headline, and
then that's what they come awaywith.
They don't actually read thestory.
Mary Jo Pitzl (23:45):
Yeah, this is called search engine
optimization or SEO, as I'm sureeverybody's heard about.
And it really does hinge on theheadlines.
Um, I um you want to have thesexiest headline, which often,
if not sexy, a headline thatasks a question.
So you leave something sort ofhanging so that people want to
(24:05):
click to find out, well, what'sthe answer?
You know, you don't the oldschool journalism used to be
that you would write the mostimportant facts at the top of
your story, the the invertedpyramid.
Inverted it's really almostinverted the other direction.
Um, you want to put thetantalizer at the top and then
(24:25):
draw people in so you know, sothat they will engage with the
story.
But yeah, there's all kinds ofmetrics, and you know, Google
drives a lot of how stories arestructured.
Um, but the headlines are thereal, are the ones that really
get a lot of the focus and theemphasis.
And sometimes they don't evenreally match the story well.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (24:45):
You know, I think I'd be really
good at this.
Like what I would do is thisI'd be like, was attorney gener,
did attorney general Chris Mayswork as a stripper?
Question mark, and then in thestory be like, no, but you did
just file this lawsuit uhregarding you know food
assistance, and then like theboard and stuff about the
lawsuit.
So it it would be ittechnically, it would be an
(25:08):
accurate story because and Iwould be answering that
questions, but you know, wouldpeople click on that?
Yeah, I'd click on that, sure.
Mary Jo Pitzl (25:15):
Well, click you could use that as a headline on
your own press releases, Chris.
Attorney General Kris Ma (25:19):
That's true, I guess.
If that's what it takes to getpeople to read about, you know,
our Snap uh benefit lawsuit.
But anyway, that's the thing.
Mary Jo Pitzl (25:27):
You don't want to get to that level.
And because believe it or not,there's a segment of readers
that would be that are reallyturned off by you know all these
plays, you know, to to get yourcurio to make you curious and
make you click.
Sometimes I try to avoid theclickbait when I'm reading, even
though I'm curious.
Um, I sort of want to know, butI'm like, maybe I should just
(25:48):
not, I don't want to feed thebeast by by doing that.
It it really it really distortspeople's perceptions of what's
going on.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (26:04):
I don't know what you're doing
next, Mary Joe.
You haven't, I don't thinkyou've revealed that to the
world yet, but I'm sure you'llyou'll end up somewhere where
you're uh hopefully where you'renot gonna have to do as much
clickbait, but um just the greatjournalism you do.
Before we let you go though, Iwould just be curious.
We were talking, Dana and Iwere talking in the lead up to
this uh segment about some ofthe other examples of first
(26:28):
violations of the FirstAmendment that are happening
under this administration,including you know, uh the
threats to our universities, thethreats to, you know, the
deportations of students basedon what what how they're
protesting or what their viewsare, the um the threats to law
firms if they don't capitulateand they don't uh you know,
(26:51):
based on and the based on thecases they've taken in the past,
all kinds of what what are youmost worried about outside of
the just a direct impact to tomedia?
What what worries you the mostin terms of all that?
Mary Jo Pitzl (27:07):
That this won't be stopped.
Where does this end?
You know, does this end or doesthis evolve into people just
buttoning up and not sayingthings, you know, um, you know,
uh censoring themselves ormuting themselves, which is
very, very, very concerning.
Um, because the ability tospeak um is enshrined in the
(27:30):
first just speak your mind.
Um, it's speech is protected bythe constitution.
That's a bigger concern, isthat people will just sort of um
lose their voice.
Attorney General Dana Ness (27:41):
Just uh just today, um, you know, in
furtherance of this lawsuitthat we've referenced a few
times now involving SNAPbenefits that um many of the
Democratic AGs are involved in,we were looking to do a press
conference at uh a food bankbecause we also wanted to, you
know, to get their perspectiveand what they're saying and what
their concerns and fears are.
(28:03):
And we found that many foodbanks did not want to host this
press conference, even thoughthis is this is an utter, you
know, tragedy for them on anepic scale in terms of the
number of people who are goingto go without food.
And that's their whole job.
Like they're there to servehungry people who can't afford
(28:23):
uh to eat um another way uh andobtain their food from another
uh you know from other sources.
And and that that that to metells you everything, right?
Mary Jo Pitzl (28:34):
That's the sort of self-censorship that happens.
And that's if that becomespervasive, you know, it it's
that's very, very scary becausethen the control is all with, in
this case, the government.
Um, and that is not healthy forour our society.
I mean, and really where allthis is leading, you know,
(28:54):
ultimately is uh the courts.
Um I mean it's in the courts,but it's all getting up to the
Supreme Court, and that's thebig, that's the big, big
question mark that I think umeverybody's waiting to see
what's gonna happen.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (29:07):
I was gonna say, in the words of
United States House ofRepresentatives speaker Michael
Johnson, bring it, sister.
Mary Jo Pitzl (29:16):
You said that about me, Mary Joe, but yeah,
yeah, on the Grahalva case.
Yeah, Grahalva.
Attorney General Kris May (29:23):
Yeah, we appreciate you joining us on
pantsuits and lawsuits toexplain to us and and to
everybody um how how journalismis working today and how we can
get through this together.
So thank you so much for beingon with us.
It's great to see you again.
Mary Jo Pitzl (29:39):
Yeah, it's great to speak with both of you.
Attorney General Kris Ma (29:42):
Thanks so much.
Thanks, everybody.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (29:59):
Uh and until now.
Next time, follow us on allyour social media platforms for
daily updates about the excitingwork of our departments.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:07):
And continue to speak out about the
injustices that you'rewitnessing out there.
We need you, we need everyoneto continue exercising their
your First Amendment uh rightsin America.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (30:22):
And be rest assured uh that uh your
attorneys general, or at leastthe democratic ones, are
fighting as hard as we can toprotect our way of life,
hopefully for generations tocome.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:35):
See y'all next time.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:47):
By the way, I was on I was on this
program and they uhspecifically played the Mike
Johnson portion of him talkingabout you.
And I was like, what a badge ofhonor for A.
G Mays to have Mike Johnsontrash talking you the way he
did.
And I just I thought he said,bring it, sister.
(31:10):
Yeah, and I was like, oh, it'sgonna be brought.
You can bet, A.G.
May.
Like, I would have done, Imean, I would have died for that
because it was just hilarious.
So good for you.
Attorney General Kris Ma (31:21):
Nobody asked me about it in the media.
I was like, I was ready with myretort.
I was gonna say, okay, broughtit, brother.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (31:29):
Oh my god, you should have.
It was hilarious.
All right.
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