October 24, 2025 • 37 mins
A hard truth sets the tone: gun violence is now the leading cause of death for kids and teens in America. As parents, we share the fear that comes with lockdown texts and campus alerts; as attorneys general, we break down how states can act when the window opens and how those wins ripple upward. From there, we dig into what actually works—red flag laws, safe storage, and other common sense reforms—and why politics still manages to stall simple, popular solutions.
We’re joined by Emma Brown, executive director at Giffords, who brings clear evidence and a coalition mindset. She explains how ERPOs give law enforcement a narrow, court-supervised tool to temporarily separate dangerous individuals from firearms, and why departments that once opposed ERPOs now rely on them. We look at the data linking safe storage to fewer youth deaths and the real-world impact of free gun locks distributed by police and pediatricians. We also confront the rise of ghost guns and conversion devices—unserialized parts and forced-reset triggers that undercut tracing, evade basic safeguards, and raise the risk for officers and communities.
The conversation is frank about the political headwinds: organized lobbying and industry immunity that keep Congress trailing behind public opinion—even when over 90% of the country supports universal background checks. Yet there’s a roadmap. State progress builds the case for federal action, especially when tragic events focus the nation’s attention and coalitions are ready with proven models. The takeaway is practical and urgent: educate the public about ERPOs, normalize safe storage, back law enforcement on ghost guns, and make the most of every opportunity to pass reforms that protect kids without infringing responsible ownership.
If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who cares about safer communities, and leave a review to help more people find it. Your voice helps turn common sense into common practice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Kris May (00:05):
Hello everybody and welcome to this
week's episode of Pant suits andLawsuits, your favorite podcast
to hear about all of the uhvery unusual and frankly
terrible world of American lawand litigation in the year of
our Lord 2025.
Yeah, you got that right.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (00:26):
We are your hosts, uh Michigan
Attorney General Dana Nessel.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:30):
And I am Arizona Attorney General
Kris Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Ne (00:34):
Thanks for joining us.
And today we are going to betalking with Emma Brown from
Giffords about the leading causeof death for children and teens
in America.
It's not what you might think,it's gun violence.
Attorney General Kris Ma (01:13):
That's the third highest total on
record, trailing only twoprevious years.
Um about eight in ten U.S.
murders in 2023 involved afirearm.
Um, again, among the highestpercentages since 1968.
That was the first year thatthose uh records are available
(01:35):
from the CDC online, and morethan half of all the suicides in
2023 also involved a gun.
So obviously the statisticsdon't lie.
This is a huge problem.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (01:48):
Uh we we talk about, you know, the
threat of school shootings, wetalk about the threats of um
shootings under all kinds ofcircumstances.
I don't know if you know this,Chris, but um my sons were both
at Michigan State Universitywhen um that shooting occurred.
Uh and they both were in closeproximity to the shooter at
(02:09):
different times.
Uh and I was just, you know,you you see it on TV, you handle
it professionally, but whenyou're a parent and you get that
that text message from your kidwho's at school and is
terrified that they're gonna benext, I mean it's uh it's the
(02:32):
it's the kind of um thing thatit it really humbles you as uh
an attorney general because youyou come to understand, my God,
I am the top law enforcementofficial of my state, and I am
powerless to stop my own kidsfrom being you know victims of
gun violence just because theywent to college.
Attorney General Kris Maye (02:55):
It's real that I did not know that
about your kiddos, but um Iyeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, I'm my daughter is nowin seventh grade, she's 12, and
she we have had she's hadmultiple actual lockdowns.
Thank God no no actual shootersuh like in in your um your
(03:16):
kids' case, but um severalactual lockdowns.
They have practice lockdowns atschool um all the time.
And we had one incident wherethe all the parents got a
notification from the schoolabout a a threat, uh a you know,
death threat that had happenedonline.
So, you know, and when you talkto parents around Arizona, you
(03:39):
know, they they talk about this.
I mean, my my hairdresserbrought this up with me the
other day.
She's got kids in school, youngkids in school.
I would say she's prettyapolitical, but she worries she
told me she she said, Chris, Iworry about this every day I
drop my kids off at school is isis gun violence.
Attorney General Dana Ne (04:04):
What's the state of of gun laws in
Arizona right now?
Attorney General Kris May (04:08):
Well, I mean, I think we
unfortunately we have not beenable to enact um what you all
have apparently done up there.
So I'm curious to to hear aboutyours.
One of the things that we aretrying to do um is is a is is
enact a red flag law, um, youknow, a sort of a protective
order provision for just for ourschool.
(04:30):
So we have been introducing forthe last, I think, three years.
This year will be the thirdyear in a row uh where we
introduced a bill to allow lawenforcement to confiscate the
gun of a person who is makingthreats to a school.
Uh, you know, maybe a teachernotices it or a parent, and that
(04:51):
that person can notify lawenforcement.
And then the gun can betemporarily seized.
Um, it's very nail narrowlytailored.
We I mean, we our previousRepublican governor tried to
pass a uh red flag law that waseven broader than that.
We I can't even get a hearingfor that in our Republican
legislature.
(05:12):
Talk to us about what you havegoing on in Michigan.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:15):
So, as I have talked to you about
before, for 40 years, we did nothave a Democratic trifecta.
And as a result, we weretotally unable to do anything
meaningful in the way of gunsafety laws.
But it was in the wake of notonly the Michigan State
University um killings, but alsoOxford High School, where there
(05:35):
were four students that weremurdered in their high school.
So, in the wake of those twothings and the democratic
trifecta, we quickly were ableto get a number of important
laws passed pretty quickly.
Universal background checks,which we didn't have, uh safe
and secure storage laws, whichit's so simple.
It just means that if you haveuh a child that has, you know,
(05:58):
that routinely is in your homeand has access to your weapons,
you you have to store them in away that is safe and secure.
You have to lock them up.
I mean, it's so common sense.
We did pass a red flag law, andit has been so meaningful for
us in Michigan.
And uh what has been hilariousabout it is the sheriffs that
(06:20):
went on record opposing it themost are the ones who are
seeking them now.
Oh wow.
That's how they're protectingtheir own uh law enforcement
officers and sheriff deputies,um, is by use of these red flag
laws when you have people whoare actually threatening law
enforcement.
So the loudest voices againstit sometimes are the ones who
(06:42):
are using it the most, which Ifind to be ironic.
We also passed a great law thatbans people who have been
convicted of a domestic violencecrime or a related crime uh for
a period of uh several years.
So we know that the biggestpredictor, right, of whether or
(07:02):
not you are going to commit a uhgun-related crime is domestic
violence.
And so um I think that thatthese laws, and that's an
eight-year prohibition, I thinkthat, you know, we got those
four laws through very, veryquickly, and I think we're
already sort of reaping thebenefits of it.
And God knows how many uhhomicides, how many suicides,
(07:28):
how many attempted murders uh wehave prevented as a result of
those four laws.
We don't know statisticallyyet, but we will.
Uh, and um I'm just so gratefulthat we were able to at least
do that.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (07:47):
I'm curious, you know, as a state,
you know, Michigan is a statethat didn't have those laws,
then you now you do.
Have you in the wake of that,has sort of the the pushback
against those kinds of commonsense gun laws receded?
Attorney General Dana Nessel (08:03):
I would say that you still have
members of the legislature whotalk about repealing these laws
because it's popular for theirbase, but not the members of law
enforcement.
You don't hear it from themanymore.
And it's like I just kind ofactually love it every time one
of those sheriffs executes uh anURPO, an extreme risk
(08:26):
protection order.
And every time it's there'sit's always a caveat.
Well, in this case, this guywas really dangerous, or in this
case, this person was reallyviolent, or in this case, he had
threatened to to kill, youknow, one of one of you know my
officers or a neighbor orwhoever.
I'm like, yeah, what what didyou think we wanted to pass it
for?
It's for people who weredangerous, right?
(08:47):
Who are going to take theirlives or someone else's.
And again, people shouldremember this is not permanent,
but this is a temporarycessation of your ability to
legally possess or purchaseweapons.
And in the meantime, a judgegets to say, listen, I think,
you know, your own family issaying that you are making these
threats, and I think you needsome mental health treatment.
(09:10):
And come back to me once you'vehad some mental health
treatment, and then we'llrevisit this and maybe get your
guns back.
And we should remember who arewe protecting here?
Mostly veterans.
Veterans who otherwise um aretaking their own lives.
That's that's the biggest statthat we know about.
Attorney General Kris Maye (09:30):
Down here, you know, we we have uh,
you know, proliferation of ghostguns, um, which are untraceable
guns, and and it's somethingthat we deal with on the border.
Um, it's something thatobviously the Mexican drug drug
cartels love to to traffic in inghost guns, in guns in general.
Um, and you know, the lawenforcement doesn't like them.
(09:54):
I chair um the memorialcommittee here in Arizona for uh
police officers who are who diein the line of duty.
Um when you see how howaffected entire police forces
are um by by this, you you know,people I think many of them put
their lives in danger everysingle day.
(10:16):
We are gonna need lawenforcement to to really like
the you know, rank and file andand leadership and law
enforcement to come forward andsay, this is what we need in
order to keep our streets safe.
And these these measures arenot ridiculous, these measures
are um fair and they aredesigned to help law
(10:40):
enforcement, and then maybe youknow that sort of can spread
spread, that message can spreadthrough the community and
through the community that isobjecting to these common sense
gun reforms.
I don't know.
That's just a theory.
I'm looking for a theory here.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (10:57):
No, I I agree with you 100%.
And I wish that our lawenforcement officers would be as
vocal as possible about what weneed to do to keep uh, you
know, the streets of ourrespective states safe.
I think they're obligated to doit and not be beholden just to
an idea, um, but to the actualpeople they represent and to
(11:18):
keep them as safe as possibleand to keep our law enforcement
officers as safe as possible.
Attorney General Kris May (11:23):
Yeah.
But, you know, really when youtalk to law enforcement about
ghost guns, about force set retriggers, you know, that the
these sort of triggers that youcan uh jury rig a gun with and
make it an an automatic gun,they don't like these things,
(11:46):
you know, because it makes itharder um for them to do their
jobs, quite frankly.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (11:54):
And I mean, ghost guns alone,
right?
Let's just talk about that fora second.
Who, I mean, how does it notcompletely upend uh any
protections that we have inplace when you can literally 3D
print uh a weapon in yourbasement and you don't have to
have a background check and youhave guns that are made of a uh
plastic uh material that can gothrough metal detectors?
(12:17):
I mean, who thinks this is agood idea?
And that's the crazy part.
Like, I mean, you really haveto set aside logic and reason.
And I think what we've seen islike if you are a member of the
Republican Party, I mean,especially of course if you are
an elected member, you have tolike take a solemn oath not to
do anything ever to prohibit thepossession uh or or the
(12:41):
purchase or the manufacture uhof weapons uh that are firearms
at the end.
And if you do, then you're likeexcommunicated from the party,
essentially.
And it doesn't make any sense.
And if you were to really havethose conversations behind the
scenes, what I hear is like,hey, I don't like ghost guns,
but what am I gonna do?
I'm I can't vote for this, youknow.
(13:02):
I'm I'm gonna get primaried.
And that's it.
It's not because they reallysupport ghost guns.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (13:08):
As a former Republican, I can tell
you you're right.
Because when you uh talk toactual gun owners, you know, I I
think I told you I I as a kid Itook the NRA gun safety course.
I was a teenager when I tookthat class in Prescott.
When you talk to the peoplethat I grew up with in rural
Arizona, they'll all tell youthat they're in favor of these
(13:29):
sort of common sense reforms.
I can't come across I can'tfind a single person who thinks
that ghost guns are good, orthat um that we should um, you
know, not have red flag laws ornot not take gun you know, not
have the opportunity totemporarily take a gun out of
the hands of an extremelydisturbed person who is
(13:51):
threatening a school, who can beagainst that?
Attorney General Dana Nessel (13:54):
Or simply locking your gun up when
you have a child who has accessto it?
Like who who thinks foranything that is dangerous to
that child and we know can bedeadly, it's not a good idea to
say, make sure that you'rekeeping your child safe from
this weapon.
Uh I I just don't understandthe thinking behind it.
(14:18):
And uh the only thing that Ican say, and it's not just you
know the NRA, I mean, we'rereally talking about the gun
manufacturers, they just want tobe able to sell as many guns as
possible without anyprohibitions of any kind,
because that's how they makemoney.
It's literally blood money.
Attorney General Kris Maye (14:41):
What do you think are your next
steps?
What's what are the next stepsin Michigan?
Obviously, you've alreadyyou've already passed some good
stuff.
Attorney General Dana (14:48):
Candidly, one of the biggest problems is
that people don't know aboutthese laws because we've not did
enough job of advertising them.
So what I do routinely is whenI am talking to domestic
violence prevention groups, Ihave to like over and over again
remind them.
Like, you know, if they say,well, this PPO, it's not keeping
(15:10):
me safe.
Well, yeah, it's just a pieceof paper.
Sometimes it works, sometimesit doesn't.
You know what it'll keep yousafe.
Making sure that the personwho's threatened to kill you
doesn't have their guns anymore.
And people don't know.
And I think the other thingabout it is that people don't
understand, and I say this thisis especially true in
communities of color.
Um, people are like, well, Idon't want my loved one to go to
(15:33):
jail or to go to prison.
And I'm always like, good news,this is a civil order.
It's it's not criminal innature.
No one's going to jail, right?
Going to prison.
You are just removing guns froma person who is at least
temporarily unsafe to possessthem.
And you know, I so getting themessage out about that, getting
(15:56):
the message out about safe andsecure storage, telling people
that uh gun locks are free,they're free in our state.
Um, because of this law, youcan go to, you know, uh not just
the police department, you knowwho else gives them out?
Pediatricians give them outnow.
Because a lot of people don'tfeel safe or comfortable going
into a police department.
(16:16):
But when you take their childto the the doctor, the doctor
will say, Do you have a firearm?
And if they say yes, they'llsay, Do you have a gun lock?
And if they don't, then thepediatricians give them out.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:26):
Is it was that was that pursuant to
the law?
Was that precipitated by thelaw that you passed on uh safe
starting?
Attorney General Dana Ness (16:34):
They know the very beginning of this
conversation, how many kids arebeing killed by weapons in
their own homes or theirparents' vehicles?
Uh so a lot of it is justgetting the word out about these
laws.
And once we do, we see how manypeople they can actually
protect.
So, yes, with a Republicanmajority in the House now, are
(16:56):
we gonna pass more gun safetylaws?
No.
I mean, we are absolutely not.
But can we sort of expand theusage of the laws that are
already in the books?
Yes, we can, and we are.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (17:08):
I'm really proud of everything that
you've done in Michigan, Dana.
And uh I think it's uh, youknow, gonna be a part of your
legacy, and also it's somethingthat other states can look at in
terms of what we can actuallyaccomplish.
Obviously, you were successfulduring a trifecta period.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (17:26):
It was in the wake, though, of
these two significant incidents.
So again, we had the expertshooting, then we had the MSU
shooting.
So I think that public appetiteum, it was in the news every
day.
So it it was I I I I certainlyam not gonna say good timing
because I don't like that thatphrase.
No, but it was at a time wherecertainly in Michigan everyone
(17:47):
was high alert and we kept onhearing the stories over and
over again.
And we had laws that, like Isaid, you know, that safe and
secure storage law.
This was a 15-year-old that hadaccess to uh a weapon that was
technically his parents, eventhough he was allowed to use it.
Uh he knew where it was.
Uh, it wasn't locked up.
(18:08):
They, you know, uh he's got anincident in school where he's
like drawing guns and deadbodies and he's searching for
bullets and stuff, and he'sbrought in, and the parents
don't even say, Oh, by the way,we have a gun that's missing
from our house.
Uh, so it was a pretty extremeset of circumstances, but it
really highlighted like, oh myGod, why can't you just lock
(18:31):
that gun up?
And then none of this wouldhave happened, and it really
would not have happened.
Those four, you know, highschool kids would be alive today
had their parents just lockedup the damn gun.
Attorney General Kris May (18:44):
Yeah, I can't.
I mean, every time thishappens, and it just happens so
all too often, you know, all toooften.
Um obviously we had theshooting of Gabby Giffords
herself in 2011.
I'll never ever forget that daythat that happened.
Um you would have thought thatthat would have led to, you
(19:07):
know, significant gun reformshere or and or nationwide.
Um, but we didn't have thetrifactor that you had.
So I think I think there issome there's something about
that combination of having thepolitical will to do it and then
something that sparks it.
Attorney General Dana Nes (19:23):
Yeah, let's hope we can do this as n
as many places as possible.
And, you know, even with theseterrible statistics, save as
many lives as we can.
Attorney General Kris May (19:36):
Well, Emma Brown, it is so great to
have you with us.
We really appreciate it.
And um glad that we can havethis incredibly timely
conversation.
Emma Brown (19:47):
Well, thank you so much.
And um, Terry General Mays,thank you for having me.
Thank you for your leadership.
So uh I, as you said, am theexecutive director of Gifford's
um National Gun ViolencePrevention Organization, founded
by, of course, uh formerCongresswoman Gabriel Giffords.
So she and Senator Kellyfounded Giffords after the Sandy
Hook shooting.
(20:07):
Um was of course shot in 2011.
Um, you know, at the time,political assassination uh or
assassination attempts were veryrare.
You know, they're becoming morefrequent, and we can certainly
talk about what we've seen thispast summer.
Um, but she and Senator Kelly,you know, founded Giffords in
part because they felt that thegun violence prevention um
(20:30):
infrastructure and world wasreally missing a perspective
from uh gun owners, you know,red state Democrats, people who
um, you know, are used toworking across ideological lines
and working with people thatthey don't necessarily agree
with.
You know, I think folks forgetthat Gabby was a blue dog
Democrat from border districts,you know, it's a heavily armed
(20:54):
part of the country that lovesguns and loves hunting.
And um, I think they reallyfounded Giffords to make the
point that um there is notension between the Second
Amendment and gun safety.
And so we really focus oncentrist coalition building um
federal and state levelprogress, you know, and we've
seen a lot of it over the pastdecade.
(21:15):
But as, you know, we see fromthe past couple of weeks, we've
got a long ways to go.
Attorney General Kris May (21:28):
Let's talk a little bit about what
you think some of the gun safetytools that have proven
themselves to be the mostsuccessful.
So I'll I'll throw one outthere, one that I I think you
probably agree with, which is umum education protection orders.
I think they're also known asred flag laws.
(21:51):
They can be broad, they can benarrow.
We we designed one here inArizona that was pretty narrow.
We thought, okay, let's let'sstart small.
So, what are your thoughts onthat and what other tools have
proven, at least in other statesthat have passed them to be
successful?
Yeah.
Emma Brown (22:08):
Well, so 21 states have that law you were just
outlining, right?
The red flag law.
And it's not just blue states.
We have a we have one of thosein Indiana.
It's a pretty narrow that we'vegot in Indiana.
Um, you know, and I think likewhat's really at the heart of
that um that particular reform,which we know is so impactful,
is the fact that um uh massshooters are often known to law
(22:31):
enforcement, right, before theycommit, you know, the tragedies
that we know by the names oftowns now.
So like the Parkland shooter,for example, um, you know, had
been the subject of dozens of911 calls and two FBI tips,
right?
But because there was no redflag law in Florida, the law
enforcement couldn't do anythingabout it, right?
(22:53):
They couldn't separate him fromhis firearms and he killed 17
people, right?
Um, there are, you know,examples like that.
The El Paso shooting, you know,had a shooter who was, again,
known to law enforcement.
And really, this is aconversation about can we give
law enforcement the tool that itneeds to be able to keep people
safe?
(23:13):
And right now we can only dothat in 21 states.
And I will say, like in thosestates, we are seeing far fewer
mass shootings.
So the red flag laws areworking, right?
And you know, I think when youtalk to especially national law
enforcement leaders, you know,about these issues, like they
don't want the ghost guns, youknow, on the streets.
They know that that's aproblem.
Like they know that if if youknow any person who is having a
(23:35):
bad day is able to convert, youknow, a normal gun into a
machine gun, like we've got areally big problem.
It's a problem for, you know,people who are walking the beat
and trying to keep trying tokeep people safe.
So it's yeah, it's a hugeproblem.
And I would just say too, like,you know, officer wellness and
the way that officer wellnessalso intersects with, you know,
these issues and with mentalhealth and suicide prevention.
(23:55):
Like these are people who areputting their lives on the line
every day and they see somereally, really hard things.
And we also need to take careof them, right?
So I think all of these issuesare very topical.
In terms of other things we cando, certainly, you know,
universal background checks orstronger background checks are
something that you hear about alot.
Um, we also know that umsomething as simple as requiring
people to lock up their gun cansave a lot of lives.
(24:18):
So um, you know, just safestorage laws, storage laws,
child access prevention laws.
Um, you know, uh, and and thoseare certainly like um laws that
can help us prevent massshootings and and assassination
attempts.
I would note like CharlieKirk's shooter, for example, got
his gun out of his dad's house,right?
If that gun had been locked,maybe it would have taken him a
(24:40):
little longer, maybe he wouldn'thave made it to the event.
We don't know, right?
But that is like that issomething that I think needs to
be asked.
But, you know, it's also thecase that um, you know, gun
violence, of course, is theleading cause of death for
children in the United States.
The majority of those deathsare accidents because kids
happen upon guns in theirparents.
It's like 4.6 million kids areliving in a house with an
(25:03):
unlocked loaded firearm.
And if we are just able to turnthat knob down a little bit, we
could save a lot of lives.
So when we think about a statelike Arizona, certainly like
there's high rates of gunownership.
Again, nothing wrong with that.
Um, Senator Kelly has guns,Gabby has guns, but they're
locked up.
And getting people to lock uptheir guns, getting, you know,
law enforcement, the tools theyneed to keep guns out of the
(25:24):
hands of very dangerous people,those are some of the top things
that we look at.
Attorney General Kris Ma (25:27):
That's that that's so interesting.
And so it's you've you've beenable to empirically prove that
those measures have worked inthose states.
Emma Brown (25:35):
Yes.
And, you know, um again, like Ilived in Arizona for a long
time.
I know that uh Arizonans hatenothing much more than a
California example of something.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (25:44):
But I if you'll if you'll like if
you'll allow me.
Emma Brown (25:51):
California was one of the first states in the
country to have a red flag law.
And UC Davis did a study thatfound that in the first three
years of that law'simplementation, it had stopped
58 mass shootings in the stateof California alone in that
period of time.
So you think that's one stateover a couple of years, it's 58
mass shootings.
That is a hundreds of peoplewho did not die, right?
So it this is not like aquestion anymore.
(26:12):
We know that the red flag lawsreally work.
We know that safe storageworks.
What we've been missing isenough of a bipartisan coalition
to get it done.
Attorney General Kris Maye (26:26):
What has gone wrong?
I mean, and what I if you couldsort of uh encapsulate it, what
what do you think has gonewrong to bring us to this the
situation where it just feelslike we we you know we we have
made some progress, but there'sso much that we haven't gotten
done.
Yeah, going all the way back toto that terrible day that Gabby
(26:50):
was shot.
Yeah.
Emma Brown (26:52):
Yeah, well, it's it's the right question.
It's the question.
I'm I'm glad you're asking it.
You know, I I think from myperspective, it's a couple of
things.
Um, first, you know, we have aMAGA movement that has um seemed
to be pretty help-bent onweakening um gun laws across the
board, you know, making iteasier for people to access
(27:15):
firearms.
And for some gun owners, youknow, that comes from a place of
wanting, you know, to be ableto participate in hunting
traditions and and shootingtraditions, you know, but but
too often it is the case thatwhat happens is it makes it much
easier for dangerous people tobuy and use firearms, right?
Um and we're at this momentright now where we see the Trump
(27:36):
administration really acting toweaken, you know, even the
basic safeguards that we have inplace while they're defunding
federal law enforcement andpublic safety programs, right?
Left and right for a party thatis so tough on crime, it is it
is not all that tough on crime.
So I think that's the firstthing, you know.
And then the second thing,folks always ask um, you know,
95% of the country supports uhuniversal background checks,
(28:00):
right?
95% of the country.
It's basically everybody.
It's 92% of Trump voters.
And so people then are like,okay, so what's the problem,
right?
How is it possible that that isthe case?
And we have, you know, thepublic policy the way that it
is, what's responsible for thisdelta?
And, you know, for us, it'sactually um a story that goes
all the way back to 2005 whenthe gun industry won broad
(28:23):
immunity, federal immunity,right, from civil liability,
which is something that you knowvery well.
Um, but there was a law thatwas passed after some of the
first big mass shootings.
There was pressure on the gunindustry to change its practices
and adopt some better consumersafety protocols.
And instead of doing that, theylaunched a very effective
lobbying campaign and they wonthis immunity, um, which has
(28:45):
made it made it hard for us toconstrain them and their
practices.
And it's basically acceleratedthis trend where the industry
makes, you know, increasingly uhdangerous weapons and sells
them to increasingly dangerouspeople.
And that's how we have arrivedat this place.
And I think there's atremendous amount that our
attorneys general can do thatyou are doing to both, you know,
(29:10):
keep um guns out of the handsof very dangerous people and
bring some accountability to theindustry, right?
Um, so that just like anyindustry that sells a product,
we are insisting on higherstandards, you know, insisting
on products that are safer andmarketing practices that are
safer.
So I think if you were to askme like what's really at the
core of this, yeah, I I believeit is it is the industry's
(29:33):
immunity.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (29:40):
You could you've been so successful
um doing what you do in the waythat you do it at the state
level and the city level, youknow, on something that's
overwhelmingly supported byAmericans, right?
You would think you would thinkthat we could.
get something through Congress,especially something as as
(30:05):
overwhelmingly supported, likeyou know, um dealing with uh
ghost guns or dealing withforced reset triggers or dealing
with you know gun showloopholes or even red flag laws.
I mean I you would think.
So do you do you still havehopes for for Congress coming
(30:28):
around and doing something?
I do, you know, I do have ahope for it.
Emma Brown (30:32):
Um something that we think a lot about is that the
fact that um you know rightafter Sandy Hook um Gabby had
been shot you know um just abouttwo years prior.
She and Senator Kelly spent alot of time walking around
Congress after the Sandy Hookshooting trying to get Democrats
and Republicans to agree tosome basic, you know, background
(30:54):
check reforms.
And they came up short, right?
We lost that vote the mansionto me bill lost it by four votes
and there's this terriblemoment, right?
Where Gabby's like standing inthe Rose Garden with Obama and
the Sandy Hook parents and youknow I think a lot of people
think about that as like themoment that we realized that
something was very broken where20 kindergartners died and we
did nothing.
And that was really the momentwhere the modern gun violence
(31:16):
prevention movement was born.
There had been a lot of workdone at a state level at a
ground level but there had notbeen really serious national
investment on this issue untilthen.
And then you know we wentthrough to your point a lot of
state level change.
And then a decade after SandyHook, we had the Uvalde
shooting.
And it was the same situationin that there were 20 kids who
died in a classroom except thistime less than a month later you
(31:39):
had the Bipartisan SaferCommunities Act which was a
modest piece of legislationright certainly not everything
but it had not only every singleDemocrat it had 15 Republicans
voting for it in the UnitedStates Senate 11 of whom are
still there, I would add.
So that is it's important.
So it is yeah some of themretired but most of them are
still there.
And uh you know when we thinkabout that we think about that
(32:00):
split screen where you likecouldn't get moderate Democrats
to sign on to basic legislationto the point where you get 15
Republicans for it in theSenate, I think shows us that
state level change ladders up tofederal change.
And also that unfortunatelymajor federal progress is
usually catalyzed by a terriblemoment, right?
(32:21):
A terrible moment of nationaltragedy where everybody is
paying attention and a windowopens and our job is to like run
through the window right andhave everything prepared right
have our allies have ourcoalitions have our states ready
to talk about how thislegislation worked at a state
level but you know in 2022 wehad the largest investment in
(32:42):
community violence interventionever, right?
We raised the age to buy ahandgun to 21.
We partially closed you knowthe boyfriend loophole, the
dating loophole we did a lot ofreally, really important work
that is saving so many lives andmodest legislation but it
happened and it happened youknow against the odds.
And so I do believe thatCongress will take this up and
(33:04):
will help us fix it, you know,eventually um and I think
unfortunately it usually takes amassive tragedy to you know
catalyze that which is reallysad.
Um and it's important torecognize that um this will
happen again and when it doesyou know we will really need our
(33:24):
leaders to act.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (33:26):
So what I my theory is yes Congress
is going to do something butit's gonna take a president who
also makes this a priority.
Emma Brown (33:36):
I think that's probably right.
I mean Joe Biden was a reallyimportant engine of that 2022
progress right like his WhiteHouse made it their job to make
that happen right and um yeah soI mean I think it I think it
takes I think it takes all partsof it.
I think it is hard it is hardfor me to imagine Donald Trump
you know getting there.
(33:57):
I was thinking a futurepresident.
Yes yes no no no I know yeahbut there's an interesting
element like I don't know if youremember this after the
Parkland shooting Trump was likewe got to do the background
checks like there's video of himsitting next to Chris Murphy
sitting like in this room beinglike we got to get this done
this is crazy.
Which I think is an interestingdata point of maybe his
(34:19):
personal opinion.
Yeah.
And then unfortunately what wehave seen is that um the gun
lobby right and they get in theroom got in the room right and
then that that died.
And I think that that is thatis um part and parcel the
problem right is that even ifyou have um folks who don't
agree on much but can agree onthis, like sometimes those
(34:41):
people are controlled by specialinterests who will um shift the
conversation and and that youknow that is a problem.
And you know I will say too Ithink one thing that has changed
in the last 10 yearsimportantly you know the NRA and
the gun lobby um initiallyafter there was a tragedy um
made it so that it was umsomehow disrespectful to start
(35:04):
talking about like what couldhave prevented this tragedy
while we were in a period ofmourning, right?
They made it um impossible orum you know inappropriate to be
talking about quote unquote likethe politics right and very
effectively they like sealed thewindow within which any change
would happen.
And I think we have started inthe last five years in
(35:25):
particular really just insistingafter Minnesota, right?
You saw those parents some ofwhom we have spoken to you know
being there a couple of dayslater being like do not let this
happen again you know tosomebody else's kids on the
opening day of mass right likeyou know you see people moving
in that direction.
I think that's reallyimportant, right?
(35:46):
So that we are acting withurgency when lives are lost to
prevent more losses.
And I think when there is amoment federally we will need
the most ambitious aggressiveaction by our allies and we will
need you know to have to talkto the president to your point
you know and see if we can getthem to a to a place of um God
(36:09):
willing you know it's adifferent precedent but um get
them to a place of of adoptingsome change.
Attorney General Kris Maye (36:15):
Yeah 100% okay thank you Emma Brown
appreciate you being with usreally appreciate it.
We'll see you again soon okaysee you soon well thanks
(36:36):
everybody for listening to thisepisode of Pantsuits and
Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (36:40):
We appreciate you uh being with us
yeah so download us whereveryou can and um catch us on the
next episode of what's certainto be a riveting discussion
about all the goings on legallyin our states and throughout the
country.
Attorney General Kris Maye (36:58):
Hang in there everybody
Hello everybody and welcome to this
week's episode of Pant suits andLawsuits, your favorite podcast
to hear about all of the uhvery unusual and frankly
terrible world of American lawand litigation in the year of
our Lord 2025.
Yeah, you got that right.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (00:26):
We are your hosts, uh Michigan
Attorney General Dana Nessel.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:30):
And I am Arizona Attorney General
Kris Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Ne (00:34):
Thanks for joining us.
And today we are going to betalking with Emma Brown from
Giffords about the leading causeof death for children and teens
in America.
It's not what you might think,it's gun violence.
Attorney General Kris Ma (01:13):
That's the third highest total on
record, trailing only twoprevious years.
Um about eight in ten U.S.
murders in 2023 involved afirearm.
Um, again, among the highestpercentages since 1968.
That was the first year thatthose uh records are available
(01:35):
from the CDC online, and morethan half of all the suicides in
2023 also involved a gun.
So obviously the statisticsdon't lie.
This is a huge problem.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (01:48):
Uh we we talk about, you know, the
threat of school shootings, wetalk about the threats of um
shootings under all kinds ofcircumstances.
I don't know if you know this,Chris, but um my sons were both
at Michigan State Universitywhen um that shooting occurred.
Uh and they both were in closeproximity to the shooter at
(02:09):
different times.
Uh and I was just, you know,you you see it on TV, you handle
it professionally, but whenyou're a parent and you get that
that text message from your kidwho's at school and is
terrified that they're gonna benext, I mean it's uh it's the
(02:32):
it's the kind of um thing thatit it really humbles you as uh
an attorney general because youyou come to understand, my God,
I am the top law enforcementofficial of my state, and I am
powerless to stop my own kidsfrom being you know victims of
gun violence just because theywent to college.
Attorney General Kris Maye (02:55):
It's real that I did not know that
about your kiddos, but um Iyeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, I'm my daughter is nowin seventh grade, she's 12, and
she we have had she's hadmultiple actual lockdowns.
Thank God no no actual shootersuh like in in your um your
(03:16):
kids' case, but um severalactual lockdowns.
They have practice lockdowns atschool um all the time.
And we had one incident wherethe all the parents got a
notification from the schoolabout a a threat, uh a you know,
death threat that had happenedonline.
So, you know, and when you talkto parents around Arizona, you
(03:39):
know, they they talk about this.
I mean, my my hairdresserbrought this up with me the
other day.
She's got kids in school, youngkids in school.
I would say she's prettyapolitical, but she worries she
told me she she said, Chris, Iworry about this every day I
drop my kids off at school is isis gun violence.
Attorney General Dana Ne (04:04):
What's the state of of gun laws in
Arizona right now?
Attorney General Kris May (04:08):
Well, I mean, I think we
unfortunately we have not beenable to enact um what you all
have apparently done up there.
So I'm curious to to hear aboutyours.
One of the things that we aretrying to do um is is a is is
enact a red flag law, um, youknow, a sort of a protective
order provision for just for ourschool.
(04:30):
So we have been introducing forthe last, I think, three years.
This year will be the thirdyear in a row uh where we
introduced a bill to allow lawenforcement to confiscate the
gun of a person who is makingthreats to a school.
Uh, you know, maybe a teachernotices it or a parent, and that
(04:51):
that person can notify lawenforcement.
And then the gun can betemporarily seized.
Um, it's very nail narrowlytailored.
We I mean, we our previousRepublican governor tried to
pass a uh red flag law that waseven broader than that.
We I can't even get a hearingfor that in our Republican
legislature.
(05:12):
Talk to us about what you havegoing on in Michigan.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:15):
So, as I have talked to you about
before, for 40 years, we did nothave a Democratic trifecta.
And as a result, we weretotally unable to do anything
meaningful in the way of gunsafety laws.
But it was in the wake of notonly the Michigan State
University um killings, but alsoOxford High School, where there
(05:35):
were four students that weremurdered in their high school.
So, in the wake of those twothings and the democratic
trifecta, we quickly were ableto get a number of important
laws passed pretty quickly.
Universal background checks,which we didn't have, uh safe
and secure storage laws, whichit's so simple.
It just means that if you haveuh a child that has, you know,
(05:58):
that routinely is in your homeand has access to your weapons,
you you have to store them in away that is safe and secure.
You have to lock them up.
I mean, it's so common sense.
We did pass a red flag law, andit has been so meaningful for
us in Michigan.
And uh what has been hilariousabout it is the sheriffs that
(06:20):
went on record opposing it themost are the ones who are
seeking them now.
Oh wow.
That's how they're protectingtheir own uh law enforcement
officers and sheriff deputies,um, is by use of these red flag
laws when you have people whoare actually threatening law
enforcement.
So the loudest voices againstit sometimes are the ones who
(06:42):
are using it the most, which Ifind to be ironic.
We also passed a great law thatbans people who have been
convicted of a domestic violencecrime or a related crime uh for
a period of uh several years.
So we know that the biggestpredictor, right, of whether or
(07:02):
not you are going to commit a uhgun-related crime is domestic
violence.
And so um I think that thatthese laws, and that's an
eight-year prohibition, I thinkthat, you know, we got those
four laws through very, veryquickly, and I think we're
already sort of reaping thebenefits of it.
And God knows how many uhhomicides, how many suicides,
(07:28):
how many attempted murders uh wehave prevented as a result of
those four laws.
We don't know statisticallyyet, but we will.
Uh, and um I'm just so gratefulthat we were able to at least
do that.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (07:47):
I'm curious, you know, as a state,
you know, Michigan is a statethat didn't have those laws,
then you now you do.
Have you in the wake of that,has sort of the the pushback
against those kinds of commonsense gun laws receded?
Attorney General Dana Nessel (08:03):
I would say that you still have
members of the legislature whotalk about repealing these laws
because it's popular for theirbase, but not the members of law
enforcement.
You don't hear it from themanymore.
And it's like I just kind ofactually love it every time one
of those sheriffs executes uh anURPO, an extreme risk
(08:26):
protection order.
And every time it's there'sit's always a caveat.
Well, in this case, this guywas really dangerous, or in this
case, this person was reallyviolent, or in this case, he had
threatened to to kill, youknow, one of one of you know my
officers or a neighbor orwhoever.
I'm like, yeah, what what didyou think we wanted to pass it
for?
It's for people who weredangerous, right?
(08:47):
Who are going to take theirlives or someone else's.
And again, people shouldremember this is not permanent,
but this is a temporarycessation of your ability to
legally possess or purchaseweapons.
And in the meantime, a judgegets to say, listen, I think,
you know, your own family issaying that you are making these
threats, and I think you needsome mental health treatment.
(09:10):
And come back to me once you'vehad some mental health
treatment, and then we'llrevisit this and maybe get your
guns back.
And we should remember who arewe protecting here?
Mostly veterans.
Veterans who otherwise um aretaking their own lives.
That's that's the biggest statthat we know about.
Attorney General Kris Maye (09:30):
Down here, you know, we we have uh,
you know, proliferation of ghostguns, um, which are untraceable
guns, and and it's somethingthat we deal with on the border.
Um, it's something thatobviously the Mexican drug drug
cartels love to to traffic in inghost guns, in guns in general.
Um, and you know, the lawenforcement doesn't like them.
(09:54):
I chair um the memorialcommittee here in Arizona for uh
police officers who are who diein the line of duty.
Um when you see how howaffected entire police forces
are um by by this, you you know,people I think many of them put
their lives in danger everysingle day.
(10:16):
We are gonna need lawenforcement to to really like
the you know, rank and file andand leadership and law
enforcement to come forward andsay, this is what we need in
order to keep our streets safe.
And these these measures arenot ridiculous, these measures
are um fair and they aredesigned to help law
(10:40):
enforcement, and then maybe youknow that sort of can spread
spread, that message can spreadthrough the community and
through the community that isobjecting to these common sense
gun reforms.
I don't know.
That's just a theory.
I'm looking for a theory here.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (10:57):
No, I I agree with you 100%.
And I wish that our lawenforcement officers would be as
vocal as possible about what weneed to do to keep uh, you
know, the streets of ourrespective states safe.
I think they're obligated to doit and not be beholden just to
an idea, um, but to the actualpeople they represent and to
(11:18):
keep them as safe as possibleand to keep our law enforcement
officers as safe as possible.
Attorney General Kris May (11:23):
Yeah.
But, you know, really when youtalk to law enforcement about
ghost guns, about force set retriggers, you know, that the
these sort of triggers that youcan uh jury rig a gun with and
make it an an automatic gun,they don't like these things,
(11:46):
you know, because it makes itharder um for them to do their
jobs, quite frankly.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (11:54):
And I mean, ghost guns alone,
right?
Let's just talk about that fora second.
Who, I mean, how does it notcompletely upend uh any
protections that we have inplace when you can literally 3D
print uh a weapon in yourbasement and you don't have to
have a background check and youhave guns that are made of a uh
plastic uh material that can gothrough metal detectors?
(12:17):
I mean, who thinks this is agood idea?
And that's the crazy part.
Like, I mean, you really haveto set aside logic and reason.
And I think what we've seen islike if you are a member of the
Republican Party, I mean,especially of course if you are
an elected member, you have tolike take a solemn oath not to
do anything ever to prohibit thepossession uh or or the
(12:41):
purchase or the manufacture uhof weapons uh that are firearms
at the end.
And if you do, then you're likeexcommunicated from the party,
essentially.
And it doesn't make any sense.
And if you were to really havethose conversations behind the
scenes, what I hear is like,hey, I don't like ghost guns,
but what am I gonna do?
I'm I can't vote for this, youknow.
(13:02):
I'm I'm gonna get primaried.
And that's it.
It's not because they reallysupport ghost guns.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (13:08):
As a former Republican, I can tell
you you're right.
Because when you uh talk toactual gun owners, you know, I I
think I told you I I as a kid Itook the NRA gun safety course.
I was a teenager when I tookthat class in Prescott.
When you talk to the peoplethat I grew up with in rural
Arizona, they'll all tell youthat they're in favor of these
(13:29):
sort of common sense reforms.
I can't come across I can'tfind a single person who thinks
that ghost guns are good, orthat um that we should um, you
know, not have red flag laws ornot not take gun you know, not
have the opportunity totemporarily take a gun out of
the hands of an extremelydisturbed person who is
(13:51):
threatening a school, who can beagainst that?
Attorney General Dana Nessel (13:54):
Or simply locking your gun up when
you have a child who has accessto it?
Like who who thinks foranything that is dangerous to
that child and we know can bedeadly, it's not a good idea to
say, make sure that you'rekeeping your child safe from
this weapon.
Uh I I just don't understandthe thinking behind it.
(14:18):
And uh the only thing that Ican say, and it's not just you
know the NRA, I mean, we'rereally talking about the gun
manufacturers, they just want tobe able to sell as many guns as
possible without anyprohibitions of any kind,
because that's how they makemoney.
It's literally blood money.
Attorney General Kris Maye (14:41):
What do you think are your next
steps?
What's what are the next stepsin Michigan?
Obviously, you've alreadyyou've already passed some good
stuff.
Attorney General Dana (14:48):
Candidly, one of the biggest problems is
that people don't know aboutthese laws because we've not did
enough job of advertising them.
So what I do routinely is whenI am talking to domestic
violence prevention groups, Ihave to like over and over again
remind them.
Like, you know, if they say,well, this PPO, it's not keeping
(15:10):
me safe.
Well, yeah, it's just a pieceof paper.
Sometimes it works, sometimesit doesn't.
You know what it'll keep yousafe.
Making sure that the personwho's threatened to kill you
doesn't have their guns anymore.
And people don't know.
And I think the other thingabout it is that people don't
understand, and I say this thisis especially true in
communities of color.
Um, people are like, well, Idon't want my loved one to go to
(15:33):
jail or to go to prison.
And I'm always like, good news,this is a civil order.
It's it's not criminal innature.
No one's going to jail, right?
Going to prison.
You are just removing guns froma person who is at least
temporarily unsafe to possessthem.
And you know, I so getting themessage out about that, getting
(15:56):
the message out about safe andsecure storage, telling people
that uh gun locks are free,they're free in our state.
Um, because of this law, youcan go to, you know, uh not just
the police department, you knowwho else gives them out?
Pediatricians give them outnow.
Because a lot of people don'tfeel safe or comfortable going
into a police department.
(16:16):
But when you take their childto the the doctor, the doctor
will say, Do you have a firearm?
And if they say yes, they'llsay, Do you have a gun lock?
And if they don't, then thepediatricians give them out.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:26):
Is it was that was that pursuant to
the law?
Was that precipitated by thelaw that you passed on uh safe
starting?
Attorney General Dana Ness (16:34):
They know the very beginning of this
conversation, how many kids arebeing killed by weapons in
their own homes or theirparents' vehicles?
Uh so a lot of it is justgetting the word out about these
laws.
And once we do, we see how manypeople they can actually
protect.
So, yes, with a Republicanmajority in the House now, are
(16:56):
we gonna pass more gun safetylaws?
No.
I mean, we are absolutely not.
But can we sort of expand theusage of the laws that are
already in the books?
Yes, we can, and we are.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (17:08):
I'm really proud of everything that
you've done in Michigan, Dana.
And uh I think it's uh, youknow, gonna be a part of your
legacy, and also it's somethingthat other states can look at in
terms of what we can actuallyaccomplish.
Obviously, you were successfulduring a trifecta period.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (17:26):
It was in the wake, though, of
these two significant incidents.
So again, we had the expertshooting, then we had the MSU
shooting.
So I think that public appetiteum, it was in the news every
day.
So it it was I I I I certainlyam not gonna say good timing
because I don't like that thatphrase.
No, but it was at a time wherecertainly in Michigan everyone
(17:47):
was high alert and we kept onhearing the stories over and
over again.
And we had laws that, like Isaid, you know, that safe and
secure storage law.
This was a 15-year-old that hadaccess to uh a weapon that was
technically his parents, eventhough he was allowed to use it.
Uh he knew where it was.
Uh, it wasn't locked up.
(18:08):
They, you know, uh he's got anincident in school where he's
like drawing guns and deadbodies and he's searching for
bullets and stuff, and he'sbrought in, and the parents
don't even say, Oh, by the way,we have a gun that's missing
from our house.
Uh, so it was a pretty extremeset of circumstances, but it
really highlighted like, oh myGod, why can't you just lock
(18:31):
that gun up?
And then none of this wouldhave happened, and it really
would not have happened.
Those four, you know, highschool kids would be alive today
had their parents just lockedup the damn gun.
Attorney General Kris May (18:44):
Yeah, I can't.
I mean, every time thishappens, and it just happens so
all too often, you know, all toooften.
Um obviously we had theshooting of Gabby Giffords
herself in 2011.
I'll never ever forget that daythat that happened.
Um you would have thought thatthat would have led to, you
(19:07):
know, significant gun reformshere or and or nationwide.
Um, but we didn't have thetrifactor that you had.
So I think I think there issome there's something about
that combination of having thepolitical will to do it and then
something that sparks it.
Attorney General Dana Nes (19:23):
Yeah, let's hope we can do this as n
as many places as possible.
And, you know, even with theseterrible statistics, save as
many lives as we can.
Attorney General Kris May (19:36):
Well, Emma Brown, it is so great to
have you with us.
We really appreciate it.
And um glad that we can havethis incredibly timely
conversation.
Emma Brown (19:47):
Well, thank you so much.
And um, Terry General Mays,thank you for having me.
Thank you for your leadership.
So uh I, as you said, am theexecutive director of Gifford's
um National Gun ViolencePrevention Organization, founded
by, of course, uh formerCongresswoman Gabriel Giffords.
So she and Senator Kellyfounded Giffords after the Sandy
Hook shooting.
(20:07):
Um was of course shot in 2011.
Um, you know, at the time,political assassination uh or
assassination attempts were veryrare.
You know, they're becoming morefrequent, and we can certainly
talk about what we've seen thispast summer.
Um, but she and Senator Kelly,you know, founded Giffords in
part because they felt that thegun violence prevention um
(20:30):
infrastructure and world wasreally missing a perspective
from uh gun owners, you know,red state Democrats, people who
um, you know, are used toworking across ideological lines
and working with people thatthey don't necessarily agree
with.
You know, I think folks forgetthat Gabby was a blue dog
Democrat from border districts,you know, it's a heavily armed
(20:54):
part of the country that lovesguns and loves hunting.
And um, I think they reallyfounded Giffords to make the
point that um there is notension between the Second
Amendment and gun safety.
And so we really focus oncentrist coalition building um
federal and state levelprogress, you know, and we've
seen a lot of it over the pastdecade.
(21:15):
But as, you know, we see fromthe past couple of weeks, we've
got a long ways to go.
Attorney General Kris May (21:28):
Let's talk a little bit about what
you think some of the gun safetytools that have proven
themselves to be the mostsuccessful.
So I'll I'll throw one outthere, one that I I think you
probably agree with, which is umum education protection orders.
I think they're also known asred flag laws.
(21:51):
They can be broad, they can benarrow.
We we designed one here inArizona that was pretty narrow.
We thought, okay, let's let'sstart small.
So, what are your thoughts onthat and what other tools have
proven, at least in other statesthat have passed them to be
successful?
Yeah.
Emma Brown (22:08):
Well, so 21 states have that law you were just
outlining, right?
The red flag law.
And it's not just blue states.
We have a we have one of thosein Indiana.
It's a pretty narrow that we'vegot in Indiana.
Um, you know, and I think likewhat's really at the heart of
that um that particular reform,which we know is so impactful,
is the fact that um uh massshooters are often known to law
(22:31):
enforcement, right, before theycommit, you know, the tragedies
that we know by the names oftowns now.
So like the Parkland shooter,for example, um, you know, had
been the subject of dozens of911 calls and two FBI tips,
right?
But because there was no redflag law in Florida, the law
enforcement couldn't do anythingabout it, right?
(22:53):
They couldn't separate him fromhis firearms and he killed 17
people, right?
Um, there are, you know,examples like that.
The El Paso shooting, you know,had a shooter who was, again,
known to law enforcement.
And really, this is aconversation about can we give
law enforcement the tool that itneeds to be able to keep people
safe?
(23:13):
And right now we can only dothat in 21 states.
And I will say, like in thosestates, we are seeing far fewer
mass shootings.
So the red flag laws areworking, right?
And you know, I think when youtalk to especially national law
enforcement leaders, you know,about these issues, like they
don't want the ghost guns, youknow, on the streets.
They know that that's aproblem.
Like they know that if if youknow any person who is having a
(23:35):
bad day is able to convert, youknow, a normal gun into a
machine gun, like we've got areally big problem.
It's a problem for, you know,people who are walking the beat
and trying to keep trying tokeep people safe.
So it's yeah, it's a hugeproblem.
And I would just say too, like,you know, officer wellness and
the way that officer wellnessalso intersects with, you know,
these issues and with mentalhealth and suicide prevention.
(23:55):
Like these are people who areputting their lives on the line
every day and they see somereally, really hard things.
And we also need to take careof them, right?
So I think all of these issuesare very topical.
In terms of other things we cando, certainly, you know,
universal background checks orstronger background checks are
something that you hear about alot.
Um, we also know that umsomething as simple as requiring
people to lock up their gun cansave a lot of lives.
(24:18):
So um, you know, just safestorage laws, storage laws,
child access prevention laws.
Um, you know, uh, and and thoseare certainly like um laws that
can help us prevent massshootings and and assassination
attempts.
I would note like CharlieKirk's shooter, for example, got
his gun out of his dad's house,right?
If that gun had been locked,maybe it would have taken him a
(24:40):
little longer, maybe he wouldn'thave made it to the event.
We don't know, right?
But that is like that issomething that I think needs to
be asked.
But, you know, it's also thecase that um, you know, gun
violence, of course, is theleading cause of death for
children in the United States.
The majority of those deathsare accidents because kids
happen upon guns in theirparents.
It's like 4.6 million kids areliving in a house with an
(25:03):
unlocked loaded firearm.
And if we are just able to turnthat knob down a little bit, we
could save a lot of lives.
So when we think about a statelike Arizona, certainly like
there's high rates of gunownership.
Again, nothing wrong with that.
Um, Senator Kelly has guns,Gabby has guns, but they're
locked up.
And getting people to lock uptheir guns, getting, you know,
law enforcement, the tools theyneed to keep guns out of the
(25:24):
hands of very dangerous people,those are some of the top things
that we look at.
Attorney General Kris Ma (25:27):
That's that that's so interesting.
And so it's you've you've beenable to empirically prove that
those measures have worked inthose states.
Emma Brown (25:35):
Yes.
And, you know, um again, like Ilived in Arizona for a long
time.
I know that uh Arizonans hatenothing much more than a
California example of something.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (25:44):
But I if you'll if you'll like if
you'll allow me.
Emma Brown (25:51):
California was one of the first states in the
country to have a red flag law.
And UC Davis did a study thatfound that in the first three
years of that law'simplementation, it had stopped
58 mass shootings in the stateof California alone in that
period of time.
So you think that's one stateover a couple of years, it's 58
mass shootings.
That is a hundreds of peoplewho did not die, right?
So it this is not like aquestion anymore.
(26:12):
We know that the red flag lawsreally work.
We know that safe storageworks.
What we've been missing isenough of a bipartisan coalition
to get it done.
Attorney General Kris Maye (26:26):
What has gone wrong?
I mean, and what I if you couldsort of uh encapsulate it, what
what do you think has gonewrong to bring us to this the
situation where it just feelslike we we you know we we have
made some progress, but there'sso much that we haven't gotten
done.
Yeah, going all the way back toto that terrible day that Gabby
(26:50):
was shot.
Yeah.
Emma Brown (26:52):
Yeah, well, it's it's the right question.
It's the question.
I'm I'm glad you're asking it.
You know, I I think from myperspective, it's a couple of
things.
Um, first, you know, we have aMAGA movement that has um seemed
to be pretty help-bent onweakening um gun laws across the
board, you know, making iteasier for people to access
(27:15):
firearms.
And for some gun owners, youknow, that comes from a place of
wanting, you know, to be ableto participate in hunting
traditions and and shootingtraditions, you know, but but
too often it is the case thatwhat happens is it makes it much
easier for dangerous people tobuy and use firearms, right?
Um and we're at this momentright now where we see the Trump
(27:36):
administration really acting toweaken, you know, even the
basic safeguards that we have inplace while they're defunding
federal law enforcement andpublic safety programs, right?
Left and right for a party thatis so tough on crime, it is it
is not all that tough on crime.
So I think that's the firstthing, you know.
And then the second thing,folks always ask um, you know,
95% of the country supports uhuniversal background checks,
(28:00):
right?
95% of the country.
It's basically everybody.
It's 92% of Trump voters.
And so people then are like,okay, so what's the problem,
right?
How is it possible that that isthe case?
And we have, you know, thepublic policy the way that it
is, what's responsible for thisdelta?
And, you know, for us, it'sactually um a story that goes
all the way back to 2005 whenthe gun industry won broad
(28:23):
immunity, federal immunity,right, from civil liability,
which is something that you knowvery well.
Um, but there was a law thatwas passed after some of the
first big mass shootings.
There was pressure on the gunindustry to change its practices
and adopt some better consumersafety protocols.
And instead of doing that, theylaunched a very effective
lobbying campaign and they wonthis immunity, um, which has
(28:45):
made it made it hard for us toconstrain them and their
practices.
And it's basically acceleratedthis trend where the industry
makes, you know, increasingly uhdangerous weapons and sells
them to increasingly dangerouspeople.
And that's how we have arrivedat this place.
And I think there's atremendous amount that our
attorneys general can do thatyou are doing to both, you know,
(29:10):
keep um guns out of the handsof very dangerous people and
bring some accountability to theindustry, right?
Um, so that just like anyindustry that sells a product,
we are insisting on higherstandards, you know, insisting
on products that are safer andmarketing practices that are
safer.
So I think if you were to askme like what's really at the
core of this, yeah, I I believeit is it is the industry's
(29:33):
immunity.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (29:40):
You could you've been so successful
um doing what you do in the waythat you do it at the state
level and the city level, youknow, on something that's
overwhelmingly supported byAmericans, right?
You would think you would thinkthat we could.
get something through Congress,especially something as as
(30:05):
overwhelmingly supported, likeyou know, um dealing with uh
ghost guns or dealing withforced reset triggers or dealing
with you know gun showloopholes or even red flag laws.
I mean I you would think.
So do you do you still havehopes for for Congress coming
(30:28):
around and doing something?
I do, you know, I do have ahope for it.
Emma Brown (30:32):
Um something that we think a lot about is that the
fact that um you know rightafter Sandy Hook um Gabby had
been shot you know um just abouttwo years prior.
She and Senator Kelly spent alot of time walking around
Congress after the Sandy Hookshooting trying to get Democrats
and Republicans to agree tosome basic, you know, background
(30:54):
check reforms.
And they came up short, right?
We lost that vote the mansionto me bill lost it by four votes
and there's this terriblemoment, right?
Where Gabby's like standing inthe Rose Garden with Obama and
the Sandy Hook parents and youknow I think a lot of people
think about that as like themoment that we realized that
something was very broken where20 kindergartners died and we
did nothing.
And that was really the momentwhere the modern gun violence
(31:16):
prevention movement was born.
There had been a lot of workdone at a state level at a
ground level but there had notbeen really serious national
investment on this issue untilthen.
And then you know we wentthrough to your point a lot of
state level change.
And then a decade after SandyHook, we had the Uvalde
shooting.
And it was the same situationin that there were 20 kids who
died in a classroom except thistime less than a month later you
(31:39):
had the Bipartisan SaferCommunities Act which was a
modest piece of legislationright certainly not everything
but it had not only every singleDemocrat it had 15 Republicans
voting for it in the UnitedStates Senate 11 of whom are
still there, I would add.
So that is it's important.
So it is yeah some of themretired but most of them are
still there.
And uh you know when we thinkabout that we think about that
(32:00):
split screen where you likecouldn't get moderate Democrats
to sign on to basic legislationto the point where you get 15
Republicans for it in theSenate, I think shows us that
state level change ladders up tofederal change.
And also that unfortunatelymajor federal progress is
usually catalyzed by a terriblemoment, right?
(32:21):
A terrible moment of nationaltragedy where everybody is
paying attention and a windowopens and our job is to like run
through the window right andhave everything prepared right
have our allies have ourcoalitions have our states ready
to talk about how thislegislation worked at a state
level but you know in 2022 wehad the largest investment in
(32:42):
community violence interventionever, right?
We raised the age to buy ahandgun to 21.
We partially closed you knowthe boyfriend loophole, the
dating loophole we did a lot ofreally, really important work
that is saving so many lives andmodest legislation but it
happened and it happened youknow against the odds.
And so I do believe thatCongress will take this up and
(33:04):
will help us fix it, you know,eventually um and I think
unfortunately it usually takes amassive tragedy to you know
catalyze that which is reallysad.
Um and it's important torecognize that um this will
happen again and when it doesyou know we will really need our
(33:24):
leaders to act.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (33:26):
So what I my theory is yes Congress
is going to do something butit's gonna take a president who
also makes this a priority.
Emma Brown (33:36):
I think that's probably right.
I mean Joe Biden was a reallyimportant engine of that 2022
progress right like his WhiteHouse made it their job to make
that happen right and um yeah soI mean I think it I think it
takes I think it takes all partsof it.
I think it is hard it is hardfor me to imagine Donald Trump
you know getting there.
(33:57):
I was thinking a futurepresident.
Yes yes no no no I know yeahbut there's an interesting
element like I don't know if youremember this after the
Parkland shooting Trump was likewe got to do the background
checks like there's video of himsitting next to Chris Murphy
sitting like in this room beinglike we got to get this done
this is crazy.
Which I think is an interestingdata point of maybe his
(34:19):
personal opinion.
Yeah.
And then unfortunately what wehave seen is that um the gun
lobby right and they get in theroom got in the room right and
then that that died.
And I think that that is thatis um part and parcel the
problem right is that even ifyou have um folks who don't
agree on much but can agree onthis, like sometimes those
(34:41):
people are controlled by specialinterests who will um shift the
conversation and and that youknow that is a problem.
And you know I will say too Ithink one thing that has changed
in the last 10 yearsimportantly you know the NRA and
the gun lobby um initiallyafter there was a tragedy um
made it so that it was umsomehow disrespectful to start
(35:04):
talking about like what couldhave prevented this tragedy
while we were in a period ofmourning, right?
They made it um impossible orum you know inappropriate to be
talking about quote unquote likethe politics right and very
effectively they like sealed thewindow within which any change
would happen.
And I think we have started inthe last five years in
(35:25):
particular really just insistingafter Minnesota, right?
You saw those parents some ofwhom we have spoken to you know
being there a couple of dayslater being like do not let this
happen again you know tosomebody else's kids on the
opening day of mass right likeyou know you see people moving
in that direction.
I think that's reallyimportant, right?
(35:46):
So that we are acting withurgency when lives are lost to
prevent more losses.
And I think when there is amoment federally we will need
the most ambitious aggressiveaction by our allies and we will
need you know to have to talkto the president to your point
you know and see if we can getthem to a to a place of um God
(36:09):
willing you know it's adifferent precedent but um get
them to a place of of adoptingsome change.
Attorney General Kris Maye (36:15):
Yeah 100% okay thank you Emma Brown
appreciate you being with usreally appreciate it.
We'll see you again soon okaysee you soon well thanks
(36:36):
everybody for listening to thisepisode of Pantsuits and
Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (36:40):
We appreciate you uh being with us
yeah so download us whereveryou can and um catch us on the
next episode of what's certainto be a riveting discussion
about all the goings on legallyin our states and throughout the
country.
Attorney General Kris Maye (36:58):
Hang in there everybody
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