August 29, 2025 • 32 mins
Award-winning prosecutor Melissa Palepu takes us beyond the headlines to reveal the unsettling reality of human trafficking in America. This eye-opening conversation dismantles widespread misconceptions about what trafficking actually looks like and who it affects.
Forget what you think you know about human trafficking. The "white van abduction" scenario represents just 6% of cases. Instead, traffickers target vulnerable individuals through manipulation and false promises. Even more surprising? Labor trafficking—not sex trafficking—constitutes the largest category worldwide, hiding in plain sight in restaurants, farms, nail salons, and construction sites.
Palepu shares disturbing insights into how traffickers now target children through video games and social media platforms parents may not even recognize. With candid urgency, she emphasizes why open conversations with children about online dangers aren't optional—they're essential protection against predators who have adapted to the digital world.
Current political realities have created additional barriers to fighting trafficking effectively. Increased immigration enforcement has silenced many victims who fear deportation more than their exploiters. Meanwhile, high-profile cases like Epstein's become political footballs while actual victims are forgotten and trafficking networks continue operating with impunity.
For parents, educators, and concerned citizens alike, this episode provides crucial knowledge about trafficking's warning signs and how communities can respond. The prosecution of these cases faces enormous hurdles—from resource limitations to widespread misunderstanding of trafficking dynamics among judges and juries—yet remains essential to disrupting these criminal networks.
Join us to understand why human trafficking continues to flourish despite increased awareness, and what meaningful action looks like beyond hashtags and headlines. Subscribe now to hear more conversations that cut through misinformation and bring expert perspectives on the most pressing legal and social issues of our time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Dana Nes (00:05):
Hello and welcome back to Pantsuits
and Lawsuits, your favoriteplace to learn about the latest
about American law and ongoinglitigation that might be of
great interest to you.
Attorney General Kris May (00:17):
Today we will be talking to some
career prosecutors, or at leastone career prosecutor from our
department, about a crime that,quite frankly, gets a lot of
airtime, yet remains largelymisunderstood, and that is human
trafficking.
Attorney General Dana Nes (00:45):
Human trafficking is pervasive.
It's a global problem thatgenerates between 150 to 250
billion dollars a year on theblack market, and it exploits
vulnerable populations by doingso.
Attorney General Kris Maye (01:01):
Yeah , that's a huge number and to
give it some context, you cansort of compare it to a couple
of other big money-makingenterprises.
The NFL, for instance, makesabout \20 billion dollars a year
, and then Google, or its parentcompany, makes or is worth
about 240 billion dollars a year.
(01:23):
So human trafficking brings ina lot of illicit money and it's
a huge, huge problem in thiscountry.
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:31):
Yeah , it really is, and until and
unless we all really standunited in the battle against
human trafficking, this crime isjust going to continue to grow,
and so it's just so importantthat we devote sufficient
resources to allow lawenforcement to root out these
criminal actors.
You look at what's happeningright now in terms of this
(01:59):
discussion of, you know, theEpstein case and the president.
Attorney General Kris May (02:07):
2024, Trump runs around the country
and gets himself elected, inpart, on the promise that he's
going to release the Epsteinfiles and he is going to
disclose to the whole world allthe bad guys who got on the
Epstein plane and went toJeffrey's Island in the
(02:28):
Caribbean.
And he's going to do it, right?
He and Pam Bondi are going torelease the files.
And then Pam Bondi comes outand she says, "I've got it on my
desk, I've got the files righthere on my desk, right here.
Here's the files," says PamBondi.
And then, whoops, files don'tget released.
(02:49):
All of a sudden, they say it'snot necessary to release the
files.
Wonder why that is.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:55):
Yeah , and here they've diverted all
these resources away from actuallaw enforcement.
Whether it's to comb throughthese records and probably
redact stuff that they don'twant people to see, or whether
it's having federal agents outon the streets of Washington D.
C.
right now, these are peoplethat could actually be working
(03:15):
on real human trafficking cases.
And instead --you know, yeah.
They're being utilized for allkinds of crazy things where they
are not needed and, frankly,don't have the experience to be
doing that kind of work,oftentimes.
So it's a, it's a disturbingsituation all the way around,
but if there's one thing that weknow about the situation is
(03:38):
that Donald Trump and Pam Bondi,they don't care at all about
the victims.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (03:45):
No.
Exactly.
Attorney General Dana Ness (03:48):
They have no interest in, in, you
know, hearing from them andsaying what would you like to
see happen and how is this allimpacting you?
'cause we know this is like abandaid getting pulled off, you
know, time and time again off ofa significant wound and they're
not consulted, and that thatwas the case with the original
conviction, you know, nobodycared what they thought and
(04:08):
still to this day it seems liketheir voices are not being heard
.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (04:12):
No, I -- I totally agree with you,
and I think that is one of themost disgusting parts of all of
this is how the victims continueto be treated in this case.
Attorney General Dana Ness (04:27):
Yeah , and you know, I just want to
contrast that to a fairlynotable case that my office
handled, which was theprosecution of Larry Nassar, and
what we routinely didthroughout the entirety of the
case, which lasted a lot longerthan just the prosecution of
Larry Nassar, because there weremany other defendants that were
prosecuted, and then there wasa lot involving the release of
(04:49):
documents from Michigan StateUniversity that they refused to
release until just recently.
But we would call them in, wewould have meetings with them,
we would have discussions.
We would always make sure thatthey knew what was happening
before the general public knew.
We never wanted them to findout about what was happening and
something involving one oftheir cases by reading it in the
(05:10):
news.
And we wanted to have thesediscussions so that not just
they knew why we were doing whatthey were doing, but that we
were on the same page.
And it was so important to havea victim-centered,
trauma-informed approach whereyou're putting victims first,
not last.
And all I can say is, apparentlyPam Bondi has never, ever heard
of the victim-centered,trauma-informed approach, even
(05:34):
though that is what mostprosecutors, whether you're a
Democrat or a Republican or anonpartisan, that's the approach
that all prosecutors should,you know, have as their North
Star.
It's so ridiculous that, as aresult of the White House and
Pam Bondi and the Department ofJustice not releasing the files
(05:56):
that they had promised torelease for so long, who's the
beneficiary of all this?
Well, it's Maxwell, right, whois the one person who's behind
bars, and just things seem to begoing her way.
It gets better and better forher in terms of the more that
they try to be evasive about it,the more she gets.
(06:17):
You know, transferred to, youknow, a minimum security prison.
And now I hear that she'sgetting work release, and all in
an effort, I assume, just toshut her up because she knows a
lot, and this is her reward for,you know, not blowing the
whistle on what she knows aboutour president.
Attorney General Kris (06:45):
Obviously , the Congress, you know, ran
out of town as soon as theycould for the entire month of
August to escape the Epsteinscandal, and I guess they're
coming back in september, right?
And there's going to be adischarge petition to try to
force the release of the Epsteinfiles, which is bipartisan.
(07:10):
I think that's going to be areally interesting to see that
play out.
And what -- the other thingthat I'm kind of watching is,
you know, I'm a, I'm a littlebit of a, of a -- I don't want
to say fangirl of some of theManosphere podcasts, but you
know I watch Theo Vaughn and JoeRogan sometimes and they've
(07:33):
kind of -- I think there's --the light bulb has gone on for
those guys in the Manosphere andthey're like, "W wait a second,
trump promised to release theEpstein files and he's not doing
it and what is up with that?
" And they're starting toquestion it on their very
popular podcasts.
Attorney General Dana Ness (07:54):
It's interesting I've not yet heard
this subject come up on myfavorite show, "90 Day Fiance.
So as of yet, I've not heardthem discussing that.
But I know it's just any minutenow, probably on the very next
episode.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:07):
It might, yeah, it might make it on
.
Once again, proving that youand I have very different tastes
in podcasts.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (08:25):
I'm really proud of the fact that
my department has a HumanTrafficking Commission that is
housed within the MichiganDepartment of Attorney General,
and my chair of that commissionis going to be on with us in
just a moment.
Her name is Melissa Palapu andshe worked at several county
prosecutor's offices.
(08:45):
She is an expert when it comesto criminal sexual conduct cases
against adults, againstchildren, and she's been
handling some really interestingcases for us.
She did get an award of theprosecutor of the year from the
Department of Homeland Security,which I think is the first year
that a state prosecutor and nota federal prosecutor was given
(09:06):
that award.
And we actually -- I'll givethis away before it's publicly
announced -- but she actuallywon a global award as well for
her work on human traffickingthat she's going to be presented
with pretty soon, so I'm reallyexcited to have her on.
Hey, Melissa, how are you?
AG Chris Mayes of the GreatState of Arizona.
Melissa Palepu (09:33):
I'm good.
How are you?
Attorney General Kris Maye (09:34):
It's great to meet you, too.
Thank you so much for being onwith us, and AG Nessel was just
singing your praises and talkingabout amazing work, and we're
going to dive into the amazingwork that you have been doing in
Michigan.
We also have a humantrafficking and sex trafficking
(09:54):
effort here at the AG's officein Arizona.
It's just such an incrediblyimportant topic and timely topic
today.
Attorney General Dana Ness (10:04):
Tell us, Melissa, a little bit.
I think that there are a lot ofmisperceptions about human
trafficking and what humantrafficking really is.
Obviously, as AG Mayes and Iwere just discussing before you
came on, of course everyone istalking about the Jeffrey
Epstein case and the Epsteinfiles and whatever connection
(10:24):
there is to Donald Trump himself.
But that's not always whathuman trafficking looks like
and, in fact, it might not evenbe what trafficking looks like
most of the time.
Can you sort of disabuse, Iguess, us of whatever false
notions we might have about whatit is and what it isn't?
Melissa Palepu (10:43):
Yes, absolutely.
So there are so many myths thatare out there regarding human
trafficking.
I feel like when you say humantrafficking to the public, they
mostly will think of twoconcepts.
So they mostly will think of awhite van driving through a
neighborhood and abductingsomebody.
But the actual truth of it isthat only 6% of traffickers even
report that they were abductedin any form.
(11:04):
So that's really just not themost common type at all.
The other thing that peoplethink about often when they're
thinking of human trafficking isthey think of the shipping
containers filled with people orpeople being smuggled in.
(11:25):
But that's not actually humantrafficking.
That's an entirely differentcrime called human smuggling.
So but people will get thoseconfused.
And when they're thinking ofthe smuggling, they're kind of
forgetting that oftentimes,smuggling will go hand-in-hand
also with human trafficking.
So what will happen is theperson -- the people will get
smuggled inThe other thing that people
(11:46):
often will think about when yousay human trafficking, the first
thing people will think aboutis commercial sex, and they will
miss an entire -- the largestpart of human trafficking is
actually not even commercial sex, it's labor trafficking.
So what labor trafficking is,just to give a general sense to
it, is it's just when somebody'sbeen forced to provide labor or
services.
W e're talking about, like,actual work, and so, oftentimes,
(12:10):
they're forced into thesesituations by forced fraud and
coercion.
But they're in these situationswhere they might be getting
some pay, but it's little to nopay.
The work conditions are always-- they're terrible, they're
overworked, they don't getbreaks, they have these very
long hours.
Sometimes they're required tolive on site or be very close.
They get housed by the companyand so they're in these trailers
(12:32):
, multiple people crammed intogether in trailers.
They don't have adequatehousing at all.
So that's really the mostprevalent form of human
trafficking worldwide, andthat's including in the United
States.
Excuse me, labor trafficking canbe found in places, really
anywhere, but most prevalently,they're found in, like, illicit
(12:53):
massage parlors.
You find them in nail salons,restaurants, the construction
industry, farming, factory work.
All of those are really -- theydraw in people who are going to
be trafficked and there's not alot of oversight in those as
well, and so it's easy to house.
When you have a farm community,you can put the trailers in the
(13:14):
back of the property.
Nobody really notices them.
And it also really preys uponthe most vulnerable of
individuals which, oftentimes,are immigrants.
And so they come in and they'reunaccounted and people aren't
paying attention to them.
So when we're thinking abouthuman trafficking, those are the
biggest myths that I've reallyencountered.
One is that just that lack ofrecognition of labor trafficking
(13:36):
, just thinking about commercialsex trafficking, and then that
white van scenario.
I always tell people just, youknow, always, of course, be
teaching your children aboutstranger danger, but that is
really not where you should befocusing all of your attention.
You need to be focusing on howtraffickers are going to get
into the communities and whatthey're doing to get people's
(13:57):
attention.
Attorney General Dana N (14:05):
Melissa , I have a question and a
concern, and that has to do with, of course, the way that the
Department of Homeland Securityhas been operating, and I know
that in the past we've looked tothem, and also to the FBI, to
be partners with us.
You know, most humantrafficking it's not contained
just within one state.
The traffickers and those whoare being trafficked move from
(14:29):
state to state, and that's whywe need the federal authorities
to assist us.
But I think it seems likepeople are really afraid of DHS
now and in the past you knowwhen DHS would be cooperative
and treat victims like victimsand again to get their
cooperation, to give them thespecial visas that they're
(14:50):
entitled to as victims of humantrafficking, that instead
they're just moving to deporteveryone and anyone that they
can possibly find.
So how do you see thisimpacting your work, and has it
made it more difficult becauseof this emphasis on deporting
people who truly are crimevictims?
Melissa Palepu (15:09):
So I will say that we used to have a great
working relationship and to somerespects, you know, I still
believe the people we have beenworking with still very much
care about human trafficking andfighting human trafficking.
But it is really difficult totell our victims to come forward
and that we will help you whenthey're from the immigrant
(15:30):
population, because there's just-- we can offer no guarantees.
I used to feel confident inbeing able to tell them, you
know, like, don't worry, we willwork with you.
There's all these visas outthere that we can help you get.
You know, there's services thatwe can get you into, and now,
with funding cuts, thoseservices are really falling
aside.
Legal services are fallingaside and those visas are
(15:52):
becoming very difficult to evenobtain.
But the first problem is evengetting them to step out right?
Because they're so afraid thatif they just come forward at all
and say anything bad abouttheir employer or about their
situation, that they'reimmediately going to be deported
or that their family is goingto be targeted for deportation.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:11):
I mean, the fact is, they might be
immediately deported.
I mean, that's the problem,right?
Is the Trump administrationright now is deporting anyone
and everyone, no matter what,you know.
If they are not here lawfully,or even if they are here
lawfully in some cases, and soyou know why wouldn't a person
(16:34):
be, you know, afraid to comeforward?
Melissa Palepu (16:38):
Yeah, I agree, and I just I can't offer them
any more support and the samethings that I used to be able to
tell them I'm never comfortabletelling them anymore because
there's just -- I can offer noguarantees.
So then we're no longerprotecting and helping our
victims, we're actually puttingthem more into harm's way or
more uncertainty, and so thathas hindered our ability to be
(16:59):
able to have people come forwardso that we can prosecute
traffickers, and it allowstraffickers to run rampant
because they know that there isnobody who's going to come
forward and that there's nobodywho can prosecute.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (17:11):
So not only of course are they not
doing anything to stem the tideof human trafficking, they're
enabling it and allowing it toproliferate.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (17:26):
In your experience, what have you
found to be the key to stoppingthis?
And then what you said about,you know, immigrants often being
the victims of this.
That is so true here in Arizona.
We're right on the border.
Melissa Palepu (17:42):
So I think one of the best ways to really
combat human trafficking is ineducation, and I think you have
to start that education earlyand it has to be often.
So I don't think the public isequipped to identify human
trafficking if they're noteducated on human trafficking
and, honestly, a lot of timestraffickers will take advantage
(18:03):
of those vulnerabilities andthat lack of education.
So, especially when it comes toour youth, our youth get
targeted by individuals thatthey believe they know and I say
" in quotations because theydon't really know these
individuals but they are gettingat our children through online
means and the means change sorapidly and they always go
beyond me.
(18:23):
I always feel like the older Iget, the less I know about what
kids are actually on in thetechnology.
But they are using social mediaapps and not ones that we, like
, use.
Like they're not talking aboutFacebook and snap is kind of
moving along out of the way aswell.
They have new things that arealways evolving.
They're talking to kids invideo games.
In fact, there was, there'sthis horse game that my child
(18:44):
plays on and it's just -- youwouldn't even think anybody can
talk, but there's a chat groupthat goes on there and that's
really like traffickers targetindividuals through those means
and I just think it's reallyimportant that we educate
everybody (18:59):
parents, students, teachers, people in the
hospitality industry.
Like we should be having masseducation on human trafficking.
Human trafficking should be apart of health class for schools
and that should really start inelementary school.
But, you know, if we can onlyget middle school and up, then
we can only get middle schooland up, but I think that's
(19:20):
really really important.
I think it's important toeducate the parents of children,
as well.
I think PSAs need to go outmore from states and just put
out there for the communities atlarge to be able to identify
human trafficking.
I do not think that you canbeat the traffickers if you are
uneducated.
In general, education is thebuilding blocks to life, right?
(19:41):
You can't beat anything withoutbeing educated, and I just
think that education, in thissense is very, very critical so
that we can actually stoptraffickers before they even
start.
You can prevent traffickingwhen you've educated people on
what it is and what it isn't andhow to identify it, where to
(20:02):
look, what are the things thatyou should be concerned about if
you see.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (20:21):
So, I mean, you know, you've
identified some of the signs ofit, and I'm really intrigued by
your point about how these badactors are recruiting kids even
and through video games, and Ithink that's absolutely true.
Um, what, as a -- and you know-- dana and I are both parents
um, you know.
(20:41):
What, as parents, what should,what should parents be looking
for or talking to their kidsabout?
So, I mean that -- it strikesme that that is definitely
something that we can do, isthat education piece to stem
this before it even starts.
Melissa Palepu (21:00):
I think people need to not be scared to talk
about it.
I think a lot of times you haveeducation in general too scared
to talk about topics that theybelieve are controversial or
they believe are too, you know,you've got to talk about sex if
you're talking about humantrafficking and that's something
people are too scared to talkabout with their children, but
(21:20):
really all you are doing ismaking your child more
vulnerable, more easy to target.
So I think it's very importantthat parents just have open
conversations with theirchildren.
Explain to your children thatthey cannot be on this chat
group.
You know, I have an 11 year- old.
She wants to be on social media.
She wants to chat in that horsegame I talked about, and we
(21:42):
just had this conversationyesterday where I turned off all
the ability for her to havefriends or to chat with anybody
because it's unsafe, and then Ihad to tell her why it's unsafe
and, you know, that's adifficult conversation to have
with a child, that you have toexplain to them why they're
vulnerable and what could happenif they tell somebody their
address, if they tell somebodytheir real name, if they talk
(22:03):
about those things.
But you cannot be scared to talkabout them with your children
because otherwise your childrenare just -- they're sitting
ducks for people who will talkabout things with them and will
mislead them into things.
So I think the first thing thatparents really need to do is be
open with your children andmonitor your children.
Your children's phone is --it's got the world at their
(22:24):
fingertips and it's alsotraffickers are in that phone
and you don't even know it.
Like, there's no harm in goingthrough your child's phone.
There's no harm in telling yourchild why you're going through
their phone.
I think it's just being veryobservant and being very willing
to have open conversations withyour children and letting the
school educate your children aswell as to the dangers of
(22:45):
trafficking and what it reallymeans.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (22:59):
You know we've not talked about
this but, Melissa, I would loveto get your perception of
everything that's happeningright now with the DOJ and the
White House and, of course, theEpstein files, because, I mean,
you know, I think a lot of usare, you know, we're really
invested in it because it's justsuch an insane story on every
level and it's so scandalous.
(23:20):
But, like, from the standpointof, like, real victims of human
trafficking, what are yourthoughts on this?
Melissa Palepu (23:28):
You know, it's desensitizing the communities as
to victims of human traffickingis really what it is.
And it's a shame because whatyou're having is people explain
away the victims.
In the Epstein case, you'rehaving people make -- say, "well
, you know, this is okay in thiscircumstance or because you
(23:48):
know, because Trump is involved,like I just -- I'm not going to
believe that that reallyhappened, or I'm not-- " you
know.
So you have where people justare taking those victims who --
they've already come forward.
They've already, you know,adjudicated in many -- in the
almost the entire circumstance.
I believe everything's beenadjudicated in that case.
And so now what you're showingother victims is, if you come
(24:10):
forward, it's never going to endfor you.
People are going to continue ona grand scale to think that
you're not credible, to thinkthat you're lying.
It's making it so traffickersand abusers are seeing this and
are seeing the rationalizationof allowing for such an
enterprise to continue, andthat's what that is.
That is a criminal enterprise.
And so you're -- people aretaking notes and you have juries
(24:33):
who are watching this, right?
Members who are going to be injuries and they're seeing this
and they're thinking it's notthat big of a deal because our
president says it's not that bigof a deal.
The entire DOJ believes this isnot a big deal.
So why am I here listening tothis person and why do I care?
Why -- this isn't a big dealfor our country.
(24:53):
So why are we prosecuting?
And I just worry about whatthat -- what message that really
sends to our citizens, what itsends to our victims and really
what it sends to the abusers.
Attorney General Dana Ness (25:09):
Yeah , melissa, can you tell us a
little bit more about some ofthe challenges that you've had
in bringing these cases?
I know that, you know, you'vesaid before, and I've heard it
said on many occasions, thathuman trafficking cases are some
of the most difficult types ofcases, first of all, to charge
at all and, secondly, to gainconvictions on, even when you
(25:30):
have pretty strong evidence.
Melissa Palepu (25:34):
So human trafficking cases are just very
difficult to present to a courtand to a jury.
You have so many obstaclesbefore you even get there first.
First you have to get thesurvivor, the victim, who is now
going through a big transitionand needs a lot of services and
a lot of assistance.
You have to get them to agreeto cooperate and you have to get
them to all these hearings thatcontinuously get delayed and
(25:58):
this system that just constantlywill call them bad names.
Criminalizing being a victim isreally what has been happening,
at least what I've been seeingin Michigan.
And, just as a side note,michigan has been graded as an F
from both recognized sourcesthat do evaluations of states,
and that's from the PolarisProject, which runs the National
(26:19):
Human Trafficking Hotline, forhow we treat victims, and also
from Shared Hope, which ratesthe states for how they handle
human trafficking in general.
So we are not doing a great jobwhen it comes to our victims,
and they're really the key andthe crux to the cases, right?
So then, if you do get a victimwho is willing to come forward
(26:39):
and willing to go through all ofthese hurdles and all of these
obstacles, they get to thecourt, the court does not
understand.
Unless it's a commercial sexcase, the court does not
understand in any way, shape orform what is happening.
The victim is up against ajudge who doesn't understand
what labor trafficking is andthinks maybe she's overreacting
and this is just not a big deal.
(27:00):
And then you have a jury thatyou have to put this victim in
front of, and the juries don'tunderstand human trafficking.
They've never been educated onit.
So the prosecutor has to takethe time to try to educate
within the confines of law,right?
We can't just provide aneducational piece on human
trafficking to the jury becausewe have legal rules that we have
(27:20):
to follow in regards to what wecan and cannot say to a jury.
In fact, the judge is the oneto provide the laws.
But if the judge doesn'tunderstand the human trafficking
laws, they can't adequatelyprovide those laws to the jury.
So it's just this big mess whenit comes to presenting a case
in the criminal justice system.
So then, say you get aconviction, the laws are just
(27:44):
not stiff penalties, and so evenif you get a conviction, the
trafficker is not necessarilyeven going to go to prison and
if they do go to prison, it'snot going to be for that long of
a time.
And while they're in prison,they get to have access to their
phones and to a phone, to aniPad, and they just continue
their enterprises while they'rein prison.
So this victim never reallygets away from any of that.
(28:07):
So it makes it incrediblydifficult to even start the
process, to even have somebodycome forward.
Oftentimes, they've alreadybeen -- they're already tainted
with the system in generalbecause of all of its failings
that happen.
And then you've got a jurythat just is uneducated on it,
doesn't understand it, thinksthis victim is a criminal
themselves most of the time oris just, you know, complaining
(28:29):
about wages.
And I feel like it's just, it'sa really, really tough
situation to be able toprosecute these cases.
But I do feel like, no matterthe outcome, we still have to
try.
We still have to show up forour victims and say, you know,
"I will stand beside you and wewill fight this together.
" And the more you do it, themore the community gets educated
on it.
Just because you're out, you'retrying them and juries are
(28:53):
seeing them and, hopefully,talking about what they're
seeing.
But it is very difficult to trya human trafficking case.
Attorney General Kris Maye (29:14):
Last question I have for you,
Melissa, is what -- in terms ofwhat you see going on in other
states and efforts in otherstates or at the federal level,
what kind of additionalresources do you need, or does
this field, this area ofprosecution and investigation,
need to really, really make adent in this problem?
Melissa Palepu (29:32):
We need more financial assistance, right?
These investigations take avery long time and they're very
costly.
So we're prosecuting right nowa large illicit massage parlor
ring and that took a ton ofresources, and we did it with
some help from the federalgovernment, but there are so
many more of those that are outthere, as well.
(29:53):
There just isn't enough moneythat goes into being able to
prosecute these cases.
We need that.
We need a lot more funding forthe advocacy groups so that our
victims can get the assistancethey need because my case is
only as strong as my victim,right?
So if they're not able to getthe assistance they need so that
(30:15):
they can be stronger by thetime trial happens, then trial
can't happen.
So we need to make sure thatthose advocacy groups are
getting the funding and theresources that they need so that
our victims can get the supportthat they need to be able to
withstand going through a trial.
Attorney General Kris May (31:10):
Thank you, Melissa, for all of the
amazing work that you're doingin Michigan and that our team is
doing down here in Arizona.
Wanted to also say the victimsof human trafficking or those
who have identified someone theythink may need help can contact
, obviously, our offices, butalso the National Human Tracking
Resource Center at 888-373-7888or text 233-733.
So please reach out to lawenforcement if you think this,
if you see this happening.
Attorney General Dana Ness (31:28):
Well , thanks for all your great work
, Melissa, and thanks for beingon the podcast.
Melissa Palepu (31:32):
Thank you so much for having me.
Attorney General Kris Maye (31:40):
Well , thank you everybody for tuning
in to this episode of Pantsuitsand Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (31:49):
And remember the first step to end
human trafficking all startswith you.
Talk with your friends and yourneighbors and if you see
something, say something.
We all have to work together ifwe're going to actually make a
difference.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (32:41):
It could be a hot flash, it could
be, you know, it's just humid.
Attorney General Dana Nes (32:46):
Yeah, so until next time, stay safe,
stay cool.
The one good thing I will sayabout all the humidity that we
have here in Michigan that younow have in Arizona, is that
people can't tell if we're goingthrough menopause or not.
So I will just say that onevery positive thing.
You know, is it menopause ormaybe just the weather?
Attorney General Kris Mayes (32:52):
It could be a hot flash.
It could be, you know, it'sjust humid.
AG NESSEL (32:52):
Exactly.
So I guess that's the one goodthing we can say about climate
change.
AG MAYES (32:52):
We'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome back to Pantsuits
and Lawsuits, your favoriteplace to learn about the latest
about American law and ongoinglitigation that might be of
great interest to you.
Attorney General Kris May (00:17):
Today we will be talking to some
career prosecutors, or at leastone career prosecutor from our
department, about a crime that,quite frankly, gets a lot of
airtime, yet remains largelymisunderstood, and that is human
trafficking.
Attorney General Dana Nes (00:45):
Human trafficking is pervasive.
It's a global problem thatgenerates between 150 to 250
billion dollars a year on theblack market, and it exploits
vulnerable populations by doingso.
Attorney General Kris Maye (01:01):
Yeah , that's a huge number and to
give it some context, you cansort of compare it to a couple
of other big money-makingenterprises.
The NFL, for instance, makesabout \20 billion dollars a year
, and then Google, or its parentcompany, makes or is worth
about 240 billion dollars a year.
(01:23):
So human trafficking brings ina lot of illicit money and it's
a huge, huge problem in thiscountry.
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:31):
Yeah , it really is, and until and
unless we all really standunited in the battle against
human trafficking, this crime isjust going to continue to grow,
and so it's just so importantthat we devote sufficient
resources to allow lawenforcement to root out these
criminal actors.
You look at what's happeningright now in terms of this
(01:59):
discussion of, you know, theEpstein case and the president.
Attorney General Kris May (02:07):
2024, Trump runs around the country
and gets himself elected, inpart, on the promise that he's
going to release the Epsteinfiles and he is going to
disclose to the whole world allthe bad guys who got on the
Epstein plane and went toJeffrey's Island in the
(02:28):
Caribbean.
And he's going to do it, right?
He and Pam Bondi are going torelease the files.
And then Pam Bondi comes outand she says, "I've got it on my
desk, I've got the files righthere on my desk, right here.
Here's the files," says PamBondi.
And then, whoops, files don'tget released.
(02:49):
All of a sudden, they say it'snot necessary to release the
files.
Wonder why that is.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:55):
Yeah , and here they've diverted all
these resources away from actuallaw enforcement.
Whether it's to comb throughthese records and probably
redact stuff that they don'twant people to see, or whether
it's having federal agents outon the streets of Washington D.
C.
right now, these are peoplethat could actually be working
(03:15):
on real human trafficking cases.
And instead --you know, yeah.
They're being utilized for allkinds of crazy things where they
are not needed and, frankly,don't have the experience to be
doing that kind of work,oftentimes.
So it's a, it's a disturbingsituation all the way around,
but if there's one thing that weknow about the situation is
(03:38):
that Donald Trump and Pam Bondi,they don't care at all about
the victims.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (03:45):
No.
Exactly.
Attorney General Dana Ness (03:48):
They have no interest in, in, you
know, hearing from them andsaying what would you like to
see happen and how is this allimpacting you?
'cause we know this is like abandaid getting pulled off, you
know, time and time again off ofa significant wound and they're
not consulted, and that thatwas the case with the original
conviction, you know, nobodycared what they thought and
(04:08):
still to this day it seems liketheir voices are not being heard
.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (04:12):
No, I -- I totally agree with you,
and I think that is one of themost disgusting parts of all of
this is how the victims continueto be treated in this case.
Attorney General Dana Ness (04:27):
Yeah , and you know, I just want to
contrast that to a fairlynotable case that my office
handled, which was theprosecution of Larry Nassar, and
what we routinely didthroughout the entirety of the
case, which lasted a lot longerthan just the prosecution of
Larry Nassar, because there weremany other defendants that were
prosecuted, and then there wasa lot involving the release of
(04:49):
documents from Michigan StateUniversity that they refused to
release until just recently.
But we would call them in, wewould have meetings with them,
we would have discussions.
We would always make sure thatthey knew what was happening
before the general public knew.
We never wanted them to findout about what was happening and
something involving one oftheir cases by reading it in the
(05:10):
news.
And we wanted to have thesediscussions so that not just
they knew why we were doing whatthey were doing, but that we
were on the same page.
And it was so important to havea victim-centered,
trauma-informed approach whereyou're putting victims first,
not last.
And all I can say is, apparentlyPam Bondi has never, ever heard
of the victim-centered,trauma-informed approach, even
(05:34):
though that is what mostprosecutors, whether you're a
Democrat or a Republican or anonpartisan, that's the approach
that all prosecutors should,you know, have as their North
Star.
It's so ridiculous that, as aresult of the White House and
Pam Bondi and the Department ofJustice not releasing the files
(05:56):
that they had promised torelease for so long, who's the
beneficiary of all this?
Well, it's Maxwell, right, whois the one person who's behind
bars, and just things seem to begoing her way.
It gets better and better forher in terms of the more that
they try to be evasive about it,the more she gets.
(06:17):
You know, transferred to, youknow, a minimum security prison.
And now I hear that she'sgetting work release, and all in
an effort, I assume, just toshut her up because she knows a
lot, and this is her reward for,you know, not blowing the
whistle on what she knows aboutour president.
Attorney General Kris (06:45):
Obviously , the Congress, you know, ran
out of town as soon as theycould for the entire month of
August to escape the Epsteinscandal, and I guess they're
coming back in september, right?
And there's going to be adischarge petition to try to
force the release of the Epsteinfiles, which is bipartisan.
(07:10):
I think that's going to be areally interesting to see that
play out.
And what -- the other thingthat I'm kind of watching is,
you know, I'm a, I'm a littlebit of a, of a -- I don't want
to say fangirl of some of theManosphere podcasts, but you
know I watch Theo Vaughn and JoeRogan sometimes and they've
(07:33):
kind of -- I think there's --the light bulb has gone on for
those guys in the Manosphere andthey're like, "W wait a second,
trump promised to release theEpstein files and he's not doing
it and what is up with that?
" And they're starting toquestion it on their very
popular podcasts.
Attorney General Dana Ness (07:54):
It's interesting I've not yet heard
this subject come up on myfavorite show, "90 Day Fiance.
So as of yet, I've not heardthem discussing that.
But I know it's just any minutenow, probably on the very next
episode.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:07):
It might, yeah, it might make it on
.
Once again, proving that youand I have very different tastes
in podcasts.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (08:25):
I'm really proud of the fact that
my department has a HumanTrafficking Commission that is
housed within the MichiganDepartment of Attorney General,
and my chair of that commissionis going to be on with us in
just a moment.
Her name is Melissa Palapu andshe worked at several county
prosecutor's offices.
(08:45):
She is an expert when it comesto criminal sexual conduct cases
against adults, againstchildren, and she's been
handling some really interestingcases for us.
She did get an award of theprosecutor of the year from the
Department of Homeland Security,which I think is the first year
that a state prosecutor and nota federal prosecutor was given
(09:06):
that award.
And we actually -- I'll givethis away before it's publicly
announced -- but she actuallywon a global award as well for
her work on human traffickingthat she's going to be presented
with pretty soon, so I'm reallyexcited to have her on.
Hey, Melissa, how are you?
AG Chris Mayes of the GreatState of Arizona.
Melissa Palepu (09:33):
I'm good.
How are you?
Attorney General Kris Maye (09:34):
It's great to meet you, too.
Thank you so much for being onwith us, and AG Nessel was just
singing your praises and talkingabout amazing work, and we're
going to dive into the amazingwork that you have been doing in
Michigan.
We also have a humantrafficking and sex trafficking
(09:54):
effort here at the AG's officein Arizona.
It's just such an incrediblyimportant topic and timely topic
today.
Attorney General Dana Ness (10:04):
Tell us, Melissa, a little bit.
I think that there are a lot ofmisperceptions about human
trafficking and what humantrafficking really is.
Obviously, as AG Mayes and Iwere just discussing before you
came on, of course everyone istalking about the Jeffrey
Epstein case and the Epsteinfiles and whatever connection
(10:24):
there is to Donald Trump himself.
But that's not always whathuman trafficking looks like
and, in fact, it might not evenbe what trafficking looks like
most of the time.
Can you sort of disabuse, Iguess, us of whatever false
notions we might have about whatit is and what it isn't?
Melissa Palepu (10:43):
Yes, absolutely.
So there are so many myths thatare out there regarding human
trafficking.
I feel like when you say humantrafficking to the public, they
mostly will think of twoconcepts.
So they mostly will think of awhite van driving through a
neighborhood and abductingsomebody.
But the actual truth of it isthat only 6% of traffickers even
report that they were abductedin any form.
(11:04):
So that's really just not themost common type at all.
The other thing that peoplethink about often when they're
thinking of human trafficking isthey think of the shipping
containers filled with people orpeople being smuggled in.
(11:25):
But that's not actually humantrafficking.
That's an entirely differentcrime called human smuggling.
So but people will get thoseconfused.
And when they're thinking ofthe smuggling, they're kind of
forgetting that oftentimes,smuggling will go hand-in-hand
also with human trafficking.
So what will happen is theperson -- the people will get
smuggled inThe other thing that people
(11:46):
often will think about when yousay human trafficking, the first
thing people will think aboutis commercial sex, and they will
miss an entire -- the largestpart of human trafficking is
actually not even commercial sex, it's labor trafficking.
So what labor trafficking is,just to give a general sense to
it, is it's just when somebody'sbeen forced to provide labor or
services.
W e're talking about, like,actual work, and so, oftentimes,
(12:10):
they're forced into thesesituations by forced fraud and
coercion.
But they're in these situationswhere they might be getting
some pay, but it's little to nopay.
The work conditions are always-- they're terrible, they're
overworked, they don't getbreaks, they have these very
long hours.
Sometimes they're required tolive on site or be very close.
They get housed by the companyand so they're in these trailers
(12:32):
, multiple people crammed intogether in trailers.
They don't have adequatehousing at all.
So that's really the mostprevalent form of human
trafficking worldwide, andthat's including in the United
States.
Excuse me, labor trafficking canbe found in places, really
anywhere, but most prevalently,they're found in, like, illicit
(12:53):
massage parlors.
You find them in nail salons,restaurants, the construction
industry, farming, factory work.
All of those are really -- theydraw in people who are going to
be trafficked and there's not alot of oversight in those as
well, and so it's easy to house.
When you have a farm community,you can put the trailers in the
(13:14):
back of the property.
Nobody really notices them.
And it also really preys uponthe most vulnerable of
individuals which, oftentimes,are immigrants.
And so they come in and they'reunaccounted and people aren't
paying attention to them.
So when we're thinking abouthuman trafficking, those are the
biggest myths that I've reallyencountered.
One is that just that lack ofrecognition of labor trafficking
(13:36):
, just thinking about commercialsex trafficking, and then that
white van scenario.
I always tell people just, youknow, always, of course, be
teaching your children aboutstranger danger, but that is
really not where you should befocusing all of your attention.
You need to be focusing on howtraffickers are going to get
into the communities and whatthey're doing to get people's
(13:57):
attention.
Attorney General Dana N (14:05):
Melissa , I have a question and a
concern, and that has to do with, of course, the way that the
Department of Homeland Securityhas been operating, and I know
that in the past we've looked tothem, and also to the FBI, to
be partners with us.
You know, most humantrafficking it's not contained
just within one state.
The traffickers and those whoare being trafficked move from
(14:29):
state to state, and that's whywe need the federal authorities
to assist us.
But I think it seems likepeople are really afraid of DHS
now and in the past you knowwhen DHS would be cooperative
and treat victims like victimsand again to get their
cooperation, to give them thespecial visas that they're
(14:50):
entitled to as victims of humantrafficking, that instead
they're just moving to deporteveryone and anyone that they
can possibly find.
So how do you see thisimpacting your work, and has it
made it more difficult becauseof this emphasis on deporting
people who truly are crimevictims?
Melissa Palepu (15:09):
So I will say that we used to have a great
working relationship and to somerespects, you know, I still
believe the people we have beenworking with still very much
care about human trafficking andfighting human trafficking.
But it is really difficult totell our victims to come forward
and that we will help you whenthey're from the immigrant
(15:30):
population, because there's just-- we can offer no guarantees.
I used to feel confident inbeing able to tell them, you
know, like, don't worry, we willwork with you.
There's all these visas outthere that we can help you get.
You know, there's services thatwe can get you into, and now,
with funding cuts, thoseservices are really falling
aside.
Legal services are fallingaside and those visas are
(15:52):
becoming very difficult to evenobtain.
But the first problem is evengetting them to step out right?
Because they're so afraid thatif they just come forward at all
and say anything bad abouttheir employer or about their
situation, that they'reimmediately going to be deported
or that their family is goingto be targeted for deportation.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:11):
I mean, the fact is, they might be
immediately deported.
I mean, that's the problem,right?
Is the Trump administrationright now is deporting anyone
and everyone, no matter what,you know.
If they are not here lawfully,or even if they are here
lawfully in some cases, and soyou know why wouldn't a person
(16:34):
be, you know, afraid to comeforward?
Melissa Palepu (16:38):
Yeah, I agree, and I just I can't offer them
any more support and the samethings that I used to be able to
tell them I'm never comfortabletelling them anymore because
there's just -- I can offer noguarantees.
So then we're no longerprotecting and helping our
victims, we're actually puttingthem more into harm's way or
more uncertainty, and so thathas hindered our ability to be
(16:59):
able to have people come forwardso that we can prosecute
traffickers, and it allowstraffickers to run rampant
because they know that there isnobody who's going to come
forward and that there's nobodywho can prosecute.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (17:11):
So not only of course are they not
doing anything to stem the tideof human trafficking, they're
enabling it and allowing it toproliferate.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (17:26):
In your experience, what have you
found to be the key to stoppingthis?
And then what you said about,you know, immigrants often being
the victims of this.
That is so true here in Arizona.
We're right on the border.
Melissa Palepu (17:42):
So I think one of the best ways to really
combat human trafficking is ineducation, and I think you have
to start that education earlyand it has to be often.
So I don't think the public isequipped to identify human
trafficking if they're noteducated on human trafficking
and, honestly, a lot of timestraffickers will take advantage
(18:03):
of those vulnerabilities andthat lack of education.
So, especially when it comes toour youth, our youth get
targeted by individuals thatthey believe they know and I say
" in quotations because theydon't really know these
individuals but they are gettingat our children through online
means and the means change sorapidly and they always go
beyond me.
(18:23):
I always feel like the older Iget, the less I know about what
kids are actually on in thetechnology.
But they are using social mediaapps and not ones that we, like
, use.
Like they're not talking aboutFacebook and snap is kind of
moving along out of the way aswell.
They have new things that arealways evolving.
They're talking to kids invideo games.
In fact, there was, there'sthis horse game that my child
(18:44):
plays on and it's just -- youwouldn't even think anybody can
talk, but there's a chat groupthat goes on there and that's
really like traffickers targetindividuals through those means
and I just think it's reallyimportant that we educate
everybody (18:59):
parents, students, teachers, people in the
hospitality industry.
Like we should be having masseducation on human trafficking.
Human trafficking should be apart of health class for schools
and that should really start inelementary school.
But, you know, if we can onlyget middle school and up, then
we can only get middle schooland up, but I think that's
(19:20):
really really important.
I think it's important toeducate the parents of children,
as well.
I think PSAs need to go outmore from states and just put
out there for the communities atlarge to be able to identify
human trafficking.
I do not think that you canbeat the traffickers if you are
uneducated.
In general, education is thebuilding blocks to life, right?
(19:41):
You can't beat anything withoutbeing educated, and I just
think that education, in thissense is very, very critical so
that we can actually stoptraffickers before they even
start.
You can prevent traffickingwhen you've educated people on
what it is and what it isn't andhow to identify it, where to
(20:02):
look, what are the things thatyou should be concerned about if
you see.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (20:21):
So, I mean, you know, you've
identified some of the signs ofit, and I'm really intrigued by
your point about how these badactors are recruiting kids even
and through video games, and Ithink that's absolutely true.
Um, what, as a -- and you know-- dana and I are both parents
um, you know.
(20:41):
What, as parents, what should,what should parents be looking
for or talking to their kidsabout?
So, I mean that -- it strikesme that that is definitely
something that we can do, isthat education piece to stem
this before it even starts.
Melissa Palepu (21:00):
I think people need to not be scared to talk
about it.
I think a lot of times you haveeducation in general too scared
to talk about topics that theybelieve are controversial or
they believe are too, you know,you've got to talk about sex if
you're talking about humantrafficking and that's something
people are too scared to talkabout with their children, but
(21:20):
really all you are doing ismaking your child more
vulnerable, more easy to target.
So I think it's very importantthat parents just have open
conversations with theirchildren.
Explain to your children thatthey cannot be on this chat
group.
You know, I have an 11 year- old.
She wants to be on social media.
She wants to chat in that horsegame I talked about, and we
(21:42):
just had this conversationyesterday where I turned off all
the ability for her to havefriends or to chat with anybody
because it's unsafe, and then Ihad to tell her why it's unsafe
and, you know, that's adifficult conversation to have
with a child, that you have toexplain to them why they're
vulnerable and what could happenif they tell somebody their
address, if they tell somebodytheir real name, if they talk
(22:03):
about those things.
But you cannot be scared to talkabout them with your children
because otherwise your childrenare just -- they're sitting
ducks for people who will talkabout things with them and will
mislead them into things.
So I think the first thing thatparents really need to do is be
open with your children andmonitor your children.
Your children's phone is --it's got the world at their
(22:24):
fingertips and it's alsotraffickers are in that phone
and you don't even know it.
Like, there's no harm in goingthrough your child's phone.
There's no harm in telling yourchild why you're going through
their phone.
I think it's just being veryobservant and being very willing
to have open conversations withyour children and letting the
school educate your children aswell as to the dangers of
(22:45):
trafficking and what it reallymeans.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (22:59):
You know we've not talked about
this but, Melissa, I would loveto get your perception of
everything that's happeningright now with the DOJ and the
White House and, of course, theEpstein files, because, I mean,
you know, I think a lot of usare, you know, we're really
invested in it because it's justsuch an insane story on every
level and it's so scandalous.
(23:20):
But, like, from the standpointof, like, real victims of human
trafficking, what are yourthoughts on this?
Melissa Palepu (23:28):
You know, it's desensitizing the communities as
to victims of human traffickingis really what it is.
And it's a shame because whatyou're having is people explain
away the victims.
In the Epstein case, you'rehaving people make -- say, "well
, you know, this is okay in thiscircumstance or because you
(23:48):
know, because Trump is involved,like I just -- I'm not going to
believe that that reallyhappened, or I'm not-- " you
know.
So you have where people justare taking those victims who --
they've already come forward.
They've already, you know,adjudicated in many -- in the
almost the entire circumstance.
I believe everything's beenadjudicated in that case.
And so now what you're showingother victims is, if you come
(24:10):
forward, it's never going to endfor you.
People are going to continue ona grand scale to think that
you're not credible, to thinkthat you're lying.
It's making it so traffickersand abusers are seeing this and
are seeing the rationalizationof allowing for such an
enterprise to continue, andthat's what that is.
That is a criminal enterprise.
And so you're -- people aretaking notes and you have juries
(24:33):
who are watching this, right?
Members who are going to be injuries and they're seeing this
and they're thinking it's notthat big of a deal because our
president says it's not that bigof a deal.
The entire DOJ believes this isnot a big deal.
So why am I here listening tothis person and why do I care?
Why -- this isn't a big dealfor our country.
(24:53):
So why are we prosecuting?
And I just worry about whatthat -- what message that really
sends to our citizens, what itsends to our victims and really
what it sends to the abusers.
Attorney General Dana Ness (25:09):
Yeah , melissa, can you tell us a
little bit more about some ofthe challenges that you've had
in bringing these cases?
I know that, you know, you'vesaid before, and I've heard it
said on many occasions, thathuman trafficking cases are some
of the most difficult types ofcases, first of all, to charge
at all and, secondly, to gainconvictions on, even when you
(25:30):
have pretty strong evidence.
Melissa Palepu (25:34):
So human trafficking cases are just very
difficult to present to a courtand to a jury.
You have so many obstaclesbefore you even get there first.
First you have to get thesurvivor, the victim, who is now
going through a big transitionand needs a lot of services and
a lot of assistance.
You have to get them to agreeto cooperate and you have to get
them to all these hearings thatcontinuously get delayed and
(25:58):
this system that just constantlywill call them bad names.
Criminalizing being a victim isreally what has been happening,
at least what I've been seeingin Michigan.
And, just as a side note,michigan has been graded as an F
from both recognized sourcesthat do evaluations of states,
and that's from the PolarisProject, which runs the National
(26:19):
Human Trafficking Hotline, forhow we treat victims, and also
from Shared Hope, which ratesthe states for how they handle
human trafficking in general.
So we are not doing a great jobwhen it comes to our victims,
and they're really the key andthe crux to the cases, right?
So then, if you do get a victimwho is willing to come forward
(26:39):
and willing to go through all ofthese hurdles and all of these
obstacles, they get to thecourt, the court does not
understand.
Unless it's a commercial sexcase, the court does not
understand in any way, shape orform what is happening.
The victim is up against ajudge who doesn't understand
what labor trafficking is andthinks maybe she's overreacting
and this is just not a big deal.
(27:00):
And then you have a jury thatyou have to put this victim in
front of, and the juries don'tunderstand human trafficking.
They've never been educated onit.
So the prosecutor has to takethe time to try to educate
within the confines of law,right?
We can't just provide aneducational piece on human
trafficking to the jury becausewe have legal rules that we have
(27:20):
to follow in regards to what wecan and cannot say to a jury.
In fact, the judge is the oneto provide the laws.
But if the judge doesn'tunderstand the human trafficking
laws, they can't adequatelyprovide those laws to the jury.
So it's just this big mess whenit comes to presenting a case
in the criminal justice system.
So then, say you get aconviction, the laws are just
(27:44):
not stiff penalties, and so evenif you get a conviction, the
trafficker is not necessarilyeven going to go to prison and
if they do go to prison, it'snot going to be for that long of
a time.
And while they're in prison,they get to have access to their
phones and to a phone, to aniPad, and they just continue
their enterprises while they'rein prison.
So this victim never reallygets away from any of that.
(28:07):
So it makes it incrediblydifficult to even start the
process, to even have somebodycome forward.
Oftentimes, they've alreadybeen -- they're already tainted
with the system in generalbecause of all of its failings
that happen.
And then you've got a jurythat just is uneducated on it,
doesn't understand it, thinksthis victim is a criminal
themselves most of the time oris just, you know, complaining
(28:29):
about wages.
And I feel like it's just, it'sa really, really tough
situation to be able toprosecute these cases.
But I do feel like, no matterthe outcome, we still have to
try.
We still have to show up forour victims and say, you know,
"I will stand beside you and wewill fight this together.
" And the more you do it, themore the community gets educated
on it.
Just because you're out, you'retrying them and juries are
(28:53):
seeing them and, hopefully,talking about what they're
seeing.
But it is very difficult to trya human trafficking case.
Attorney General Kris Maye (29:14):
Last question I have for you,
Melissa, is what -- in terms ofwhat you see going on in other
states and efforts in otherstates or at the federal level,
what kind of additionalresources do you need, or does
this field, this area ofprosecution and investigation,
need to really, really make adent in this problem?
Melissa Palepu (29:32):
We need more financial assistance, right?
These investigations take avery long time and they're very
costly.
So we're prosecuting right nowa large illicit massage parlor
ring and that took a ton ofresources, and we did it with
some help from the federalgovernment, but there are so
many more of those that are outthere, as well.
(29:53):
There just isn't enough moneythat goes into being able to
prosecute these cases.
We need that.
We need a lot more funding forthe advocacy groups so that our
victims can get the assistancethey need because my case is
only as strong as my victim,right?
So if they're not able to getthe assistance they need so that
(30:15):
they can be stronger by thetime trial happens, then trial
can't happen.
So we need to make sure thatthose advocacy groups are
getting the funding and theresources that they need so that
our victims can get the supportthat they need to be able to
withstand going through a trial.
Attorney General Kris May (31:10):
Thank you, Melissa, for all of the
amazing work that you're doingin Michigan and that our team is
doing down here in Arizona.
Wanted to also say the victimsof human trafficking or those
who have identified someone theythink may need help can contact
, obviously, our offices, butalso the National Human Tracking
Resource Center at 888-373-7888or text 233-733.
So please reach out to lawenforcement if you think this,
if you see this happening.
Attorney General Dana Ness (31:28):
Well , thanks for all your great work
, Melissa, and thanks for beingon the podcast.
Melissa Palepu (31:32):
Thank you so much for having me.
Attorney General Kris Maye (31:40):
Well , thank you everybody for tuning
in to this episode of Pantsuitsand Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (31:49):
And remember the first step to end
human trafficking all startswith you.
Talk with your friends and yourneighbors and if you see
something, say something.
We all have to work together ifwe're going to actually make a
difference.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (32:41):
It could be a hot flash, it could
be, you know, it's just humid.
Attorney General Dana Nes (32:46):
Yeah, so until next time, stay safe,
stay cool.
The one good thing I will sayabout all the humidity that we
have here in Michigan that younow have in Arizona, is that
people can't tell if we're goingthrough menopause or not.
So I will just say that onevery positive thing.
You know, is it menopause ormaybe just the weather?
Attorney General Kris Mayes (32:52):
It could be a hot flash.
It could be, you know, it'sjust humid.
AG NESSEL (32:52):
Exactly.
So I guess that's the one goodthing we can say about climate
change.
AG MAYES (32:52):
We'll see you next time.
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